Return to Transcripts main page


Loss, Tragedy and Justice

Aired July 18, 2013 - 19:00   ET


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Tonight, another Zimmerman juror steps forward to say the not guilty verdict was A-OK by him. And he doesn`t see any need for civil rights charges against acquitted shooter George Zimmerman. In an interview that is bound to add fuel to the backlash, this new mystery juror, an alternate and a male, says the six women who voted not guilty were correct. This as Trayvon Martin`s parents finally speak out and express disgust over that very same not guilty verdict for their son`s killer. Is this verdict polarizing the nation?

Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, coming to you live.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I feel bad we can`t give them the verdict they wanted.

We thought about it for hours.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It just went terribly wrong.

RACHEL JEANTEL: Remind you, they`re white.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He could have walked away and gone home.

JEANTEL: Trayvon is not a thug.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can`t charge him with anything.

JEANTEL: I put Trayvon at his funeral, I put Trayvon in that casket.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was justified in shooting Trayvon Martin.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Trayvon`s parents noticeably absent from the reading of the not guilty verdict of former neighborhood watchman George Zimmerman. But now they say they were shocked and disgusted. The word disgust was used that Trayvon`s killer was able to waltz free after shooting their unarmed son in the chest. Listen to this from CBS.


SYBRINA FULTON, MOTHER: I was in a bit of shock. I thought surely that he would be found guilty of second-degree murder, manslaughter at the least. But I just knew that they would see that this was a teenager just trying to get home. This was no burglar. This was somebody, somebody`s son, that was trying to get home.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You were stunned by the verdict.

FULTON: I was stunned. Absolutely. I couldn`t believe it.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Trayvon`s parents aren`t the only people hurt and angry over the verdict. Protests spanning coast-to-coast are happening every day. And Rachel Jeantel, the last person to speak to Trayvon on the phone, has a few words for George Zimmerman.


JEANTEL: You hurt a family. You hurt people. And I just don`t know how you sleep at night.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And tonight I will talk to a very special guest who unfortunately knows all too well what Trayvon Martin`s parents are going through as they grapple with the jury`s decision. Kim Goldman, whose brother Ron Goldman was murdered with Nicole Brown Simpson only to see defendant O.J. Simpson acquitted. What does she think? Plus, George Zimmerman and former neighbor Frank Taaffe is going to take your calls tonight. What do you want to ask him? Call me and you`ll get to ask him. 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-576-7297. Straight into the lion`s den.

Did Florida state attorney Angela Corey give Trayvon Martin`s parents false hope, given the laws of Florida, about the outcome of this case? I`ll start with Loni Coombs, former Los Angeles County prosecutor.

LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Hi, Jane. I don`t think she did. I certainly hope she didn`t. As a prosecutor, one of the most important things you can do is really prepare the victim`s family for any outcome and let them know that satisfaction doesn`t really come through the criminal justice system. You hope the right thing is done with the verdict, but they have to find their sustenance and their satisfaction elsewhere. And these comments that we heard from Trayvon`s parents throughout the trial seem to really imply that they were doing that. That they`re relying on their religious beliefs, their spirituality, their friends.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Loni, good point. But my question is, did special prosecutor Angela Corey raise their hopes to perhaps an irrationally positive level about the outcome only to increase their suffering when it`s not guilty on all counts? Does anybody think that, does anybody think that on my panel? That maybe their expectations were raised to an unreasonable degree? Let`s see the panel. Because if nobody --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Go ahead.

AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: We don`t know what Angela told the Martin family. But I doubt that she told them what we heard them say on this network, which is that they didn`t know that their own medical examiner was going to say that he didn`t have any memory as it related to the autopsy that he performed. That he was going to be reading from his notes. I doubt that she told him that there were inconsistencies in their witnesses` statements and holes that they couldn`t fill. I just don`t -- can`t believe that Angela laid out for them all of the problems and the hurdles in the presentation of their case. Doesn`t appear that that happened, because the Martins were very, very optimistic of a second-degree and definitely a manslaughter conviction in this case.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, the reason I ask that is we heard from juror B- 37. Now we`re hearing from an alternate male who also says, well, I would have voted the exact same way. Frank Taaffe, you raised your hand.

FRANK TAAFFE, FRIEND OF ZIMMERMAN: Yes, I believe she gave them false hope from the beginning. You know, we have to go back to the origin of this, where, you know, the state attorney there in Sanford found no probable cause. And in this case Angela Corey made the charge fit the crime. And there just wasn`t much to go on, and based on Chief Lee`s statement that, you know, they could not find any probable cause. And that`s the cornerstone of any charge. And in the charging affidavit, the state went on record to state that Trayvon was the -- was being aggressed by George. That George was the aggressor, and upon direct examination to their inspector on the stand, they couldn`t determine. They had no way to find out who the aggressor was.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So far so good in terms of people not speaking over each other. You had your say, Frank. And now I would like to go to J. Wyndal Gordon. And let`s see if we can keep this track record going. Go ahead, J. Wyndal.

J. WYNDAL GORDON, ATTORNEY: I disagree with Frank Taaffe with regard to probable cause. There was probable cause all over this case. If there was not probably cause, the case would have been dismissed at the motion (inaudible) of acquittal. That did not occur in this case.

On the other case, did Angela Corey oversell the case? I don`t think so. If she believed in her case the way that she`s supposed to as a prosecutor, then she had to firmly believe that she was going to get at least manslaughter, if not second degree murders. And I think she should have added some additional charges to the case as well.

Now when you go to trials, trials are uncertain. And anybody who does trial work will tell you that any time you go to trial, you always have uncertainties. Even though witnesses prepare written reports, when they get on the stand, it`s a totally different story. When you`re under scrutiny, like Rachel Jeantel for like five hours, you start to fatigue right there on the stand. Bao, who knew that his arrogance would rule the day? He wanted to know more than the lawyers. There were a lot of things going on that Angela Corey could not have anticipated.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Danny Cevallos, J. Wyndal raises a good point about possible other charges. I mean, what if this charge, the top charge had started with manslaughter, and then there would have been other lesser includeds? Would that have been a smarter way to go? Because you heard juror B-37 say we wanted to charge him with something, but we felt that given the charges that were our options and the law as it stands with stand your ground, we didn`t have any other option. Would there have been another way to play this?

DANNY CEVALLOS, ATTORNEY: Well, some commentators have said that had they charged that lesser offense, manslaughter, there may have been a better chance because they could have argued that. And it was in essence, a lot of people have argued that the prosecution overshot. However, they did have, the jury had manslaughter to consider. And they found that neither manslaughter not second degree murder applied.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m talking about lesser, lesser charges from that. If manslaughter is the top charge, for example, and you had other lessers from that. I don`t know, whether it would be aggravated battery or whatever, would at least they would have been able to come out with something?

CEVALLOS: Well, absolutely. And that goes to the issue of the media attention, because you have to wonder, when reviewing, when the charging unit, or however it`s done down there, is reviewing a case like this, and they look rationally to what they can reasonably prove in court, there`s probably a lesser included charge below manslaughter that may have been more reasonable. However, there`s been many commentators saying that given the pressure on the prosecution in this case, they felt they had to go for not just manslaughter, but second-degree murder.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: I always say 100 percent of nothing is nothing. You know, it`s like somebody saying -- I want -- you know, there`s statistical probability in things like this that you have to consider. I want to go to Eric Schwartzreich very quickly.

ERIC SCHWARTZREICH, ATTORNEY: Jane, they overcharged from the beginning. That was their problem. This case was brought because of political pressure. Trayvon Martin did not deserve to die. After all, he was an unarmed teenager. But prosecutors do this all the time. They overcharge. They oversold this. They overcharged. It was never murder two.

When you start with murder two and then you say, to the jury, well, if we haven`t proven this, why don`t you consider the lesser manslaughter. They are not selling what they believe in. And it`s a big problem, and they ended up having an egg on their face. And they lost this case, and it`s one of the biggest reasons why they did.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You wanted to say something, Frank?

TAAFFE: Yes, Danny, I really respect everything you say. And I think we shared this early you and I when we met in New York this week. There was no probable cause to begin with. And without, and let me ask you this --

CEVALLOS: I agree with you.

TAAFFE: What would have it have taken to charge George? What would it have taken? They don`t work on commission at the police station, OK? They don`t get a cut--

CEVALLOS: The reality is -- right.


CEVALLOS: Frank and I are having a conversation here. Now quiet.

Frank and I right now -- now, how old on, Frank. I agree with you. But the reality in the criminal justice system is probable cause is usually a rubber stamp. At least that`s what a lot of people observe, and I think there`s grounds for saying that. And if that`s true, then many times defense attorneys have to plan a case out as if probable cause initially will be found.

So assuming arguendo that they find probably cause early on, you have to look at this as a defense case going to trial. So I agree with you. I don`t know that there`s probable cause for anything.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, J. Wyndal quickly, and then we`ll go to break.

GORDON: I think these two individuals are being intellectually dishonest to even pretend like there was no probably cause in this case. George Zimmerman followed Trayvon.

CEVALLOS: The police did not arrest initially.


GORDON: Are you putting your faith in Sanford police? They`re a bunch of idiots.



GORDON: 44 days before an arrest, no proper investigation. They did absolutely nothing.


GORDON: They look like the Keystone Kops.

TAAFFE: They don`t work on commission. Lock them up.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What we`re talking about here is--


VELEZ-MITCHELL: The rage started when nothing was done, when this young man was dead on the ground, and essentially the cops said, nothing to see here. Nothing to see here. Move along. Move along. That`s why the special prosecutor was ultimately brought in. That`s why charges were filed. That`s why they went to trial. What we were just debating is were the right charges brought in terms of if you want to win? 100 percent of nothing is nothing. Like they say. We`re going to agree to disagree whether or not Angela Corey overreached with her charges.

We`re going to be back on the other side. Incredibly provocative comments by this alternate juror, another comment from Trayvon`s parents. Trayvon`s dad says that if Trayvon were white, we wouldn`t be here talking about this right now. What do you think? Stay right there.


JEANTEL: I became the voice of Trayvon. And that was really scary. Wow. That day when Trayvon`s father called me saying -- I question what I heard that night, finding out I was the last one who talked to his son. What happened that night? And I only told him it was just -- a man was just following him. That`s it. And he just sounded so sad.




TRACY MARTIN, FATHER: Was he racially profiled? I think that if Trayvon had been white, this would have never happened. So obviously race is playing some type of role.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And that from "The Today Show," NBC. Trayvon`s father essentially saying if his son were white, this would not have happened. In the lion`s den, what say you, Areva Martin?

A. MARTIN: You know, Jane, you`re never going to convince the African-American community and lots of people in the white community who have taken to the streets over this matter that this would not have had a different outcome if Trayvon were white. From the beginning, the police probably would have arrested George Zimmerman. The jurors, B-37 said that she was sympathetic to George Zimmerman, not the deceased, Trayvon Martin. And we can`t help but believe if Trayvon were a young, white teen walking home on a snack run, that those jurors would have had more empathy for him and less for the individual that shot him.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to go to Frank Taaffe. You live in the neighborhood. Let`s say you were walking down the street in the same exact spot where Trayvon Martin was walking, in the rain, and you would have been wearing something over your head because it was raining and you didn`t have an umbrella, and you were on the phone, do you think that George Zimmerman, if he couldn`t have recognized you, would have started to call the non- emergency police number to say that he saw somebody suspicious?




CEVALLOS: Let me follow up with that. Let me come in here.


CEVALLOS: The narrative here that if he were black, first of all we can`t deal with hypotheticals. If you want to say that if you were black, if you were white, if you -- if George Zimmerman was a woolly mammoth, things would be different. I don`t know.

But the reality is the idea that because Trayvon Martin is black, that`s why he was profiled, is somewhat belied by the actual facts, the actual evidence. When you listen to the 911 call, that`s not the first thing he blurts out. He`s describing that he looks suspicious. And only upon a request for information from the 911 operator, does he say he looks black.

TAAFFE: And remember, in closing, Mark O`Mara brought out, in closing Mark O`Mara brought out the fact, in his closing, in the summation, that we had been burglarized by young black males. That was in the summation. OK? I`ll leave you with that.

CEVALLOS: And one step further. There`s one way to look at this case, and it`s this. You can say it`s young black male, but the reality is, young males are the ones responsible. Black, white, Hispanic, Asian. Young males--

TAAFFE: In our case they were all black.

CEVALLOS: I don`t walk into prisons, I don`t walk into prisons and see 82-year-old grandmothers of any color. So the reality is young males - -

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I don`t think gender is an issue in this case. We have got enough issues that we don`t need to throw in gender. But I want to go to J. Wyndal Gordon, because I want to give you an opportunity to respond to that. Because it was mentioned by Mark O`Mara. It`s now being repeated by Frank Taaffe, who lived in the neighborhood. Do you think if Trayvon Martin, let`s say he`s the same exact age, I`ll give you another hypothetical. He`s the same exact age. He is talking to his girlfriend, but instead of being a young African-American male, he`s a young white male, do you think that it would have turned out differently?

GORDON: Absolutely. That young white male would be alive today. Let`s just put this where it belongs. If Trayvon Martin was white, he would be alive. Because he`s black, he`s dead. And you guys kill me with this again, the intellectual dishonesty of the both of you. It`s the dumbest thing I ever heard -- I`m just telling you--


CEVALLOS: You`re the one who just misstated the standard for judgment of acquittal.

GORDON: I`m sorry?

CEVALLOS: I was going to let you go --

GORDON: I know what the standard is. But you guys are talking about probable cause.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Notice the women are not talking.


GORDON: What I was saying to you all is for you all to pretend like race has nothing to do with the case.

CEVALLOS: Read the law.

GORDON: Read the law? Man.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold on a second. Loni Coombs raised her hand. I`m going to give you Loni Coombs a shot.

COOMBS: Thanks. Look, as far as whether Trayvon, if he was white or not, there`s a whole bunch of different ways we can even analyze that. Would he not follow him because he had this racial assumption that young black men are more dangerous and so he followed him because he`s black, and if he`s white he wouldn`t follow him? Or is it because as the neighborhood watch guy, he`s aware of the prior break-ins, of the description of the people who have been causing the break-ins.

GORDON: What does that have to do with young Trayvon Martin? I`ve heard that a lot.


COOMBS: Let me finish the description. The prior description has been young African-American men. And if so far from what he saw just in that initial observation, Trayvon fit -- I think we all agree. He`s young.

GORDON: He`s a young African-American man. Does that make him a suspect? Just because he`s young and African-American and male?

TAAFFE: Trayvon Martin is not dead because he`s African-American.


TAAFFE: He`s not dead because he`s African-American.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: They do psychological studies when people want to become psychiatrists or psychologists. I`ve heard this, they make people find their prejudices. And people who may think they have absolutely no prejudice, by the end of this survey, when they`re forced to choose this, that, and the other, what they find is that everybody has prejudices, and that people who say that they are completely objective, whether it`s George or whether it`s journalists are in denial because there is no complete and perfect objectivity. That is a hypothetical that does not exist in real life.

On the other side of the break, whew! We have got so much more. We`re going to hear from alternate juror, the man, who agrees with the verdict. We`re going to debate that, too. Stay right there.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There was a couple of them in there that wanted to find him guilty of something. And after hours and hours and hours of deliberating over the law and reading it over and over and over again, we decided there`s just no way, other place to go. Because of the heat of the moment and the stand your ground. He had a right to defend himself. If he felt threatened, then his life was going to be taken away from him or he was going to have bodily harm, he had a right.



VINNIE POLITAN, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Do you have a message for George Zimmerman?

JEANTEL: I don`t know how you sleep at night. I have no idea how you sleep at night. You should have used more common sense.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And now we`re hearing from an alternate juror, a male who listened to all the evidence in the case, and he said he would have also voted not guilty on all counts. In a case with more than 200 pieces of evidence, what was the key to the case according to him? According to the alternate juror, it was George Zimmerman`s nonemergency call to police that he made when he first spotted Trayvon Martin who was walking home from the 7-Eleven with Skittles and a soft drink. Listen to this from WFOR.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One key witness to me was George Zimmerman during the nonemergency call. As far as I`m concerned, that was direct evidence of what he was doing and how he was communicating. And I think that was the key to his mentality at the time. You know, there was a lot of emphasis on -- on whether he was showing ill will, spite or hatred. And I didn`t see that. There was no evidence to support that in that phone call.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Straight out to the lion`s den. Eric Schwartzreich, this alternate juror said the 911 call, what prosecutors used to show ill will, hatred, spite, the bleeping punks, they always get away. This bleep you know what, I don`t want to make a mistake like I did once and say the wrong thing.

Eric, the prosecution thought that was their gem. And he thought it was the basis for an acquittal.

SCHWARTZREICH: Jane, you summed it up when you asked the million dollar question at the beginning of the show. Did the prosecutors overpromise? They overcharged. Ill will, hatred, spite, that`s murder two. You heard that alternate juror. And if I may, the biggest problem I have with this case is everyone wants to say, and I understand that there`s a black America and there is a white America and we still have prejudice. As a defense attorney, I see a disproportionate number of African-Americans in court all the time. And the world will be viewed by our perceptions. But the problem with this case is I`m hearing pundits or people say that this is the greatest civil rights case of the century. It`s not. Brown v. Board of Education or cases like that. This was a jury trial where it was shown and the facts are uncontroverted that this wasn`t--


A. MARTIN: With all due respect to you, Eric, you don`t get to decide for African-Americans and others what is the greatest civil rights case in the nation--

SCHWARTZREICH: This is not the greatest civil rights case.


A. MARTIN: -- they want to decide this is a crucial (ph) case to discuss race in America.


SCHWARTZREICH: What has been shown that George Zimmerman was racist? And the fact, how is he racist?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Please, please, one at a time.

A. MARTIN: Eric, I allowed you to speak. No one has the right to tell African-Americans or anyone what case should be significant for them to start a very critical discussion about race. We have decided, many in the community, the legal community and the African-American community and American, white America that this case is very pivotal, and we have an absolute right to do so.


SCHWARTZREICH: Here`s the problem. If I may. Just briefly. Here`s the problem. It is 2013. We have an African-American president. Not just voted in by African-Americans, but by Caucasians.


SCHWARTZREICH: Not just once, if I may, twice.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Listen, we`re going to have to continue.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: We have to take a break on this debate. We`re going to be back with it, but we`re also back with a very special guest. Kim Goldman, whose brother Ron was viciously murdered, and it became the trial of the century in the last century. Her thoughts on what the parents of Trayvon Martin are going through. Stay right there. And more debate.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We, the jury, in the above entitled action, find the defendant Orenthal James Simpson not guilty of the violation of murder in violation of penal code section 187-A, a felony upon Ronald Lyle Goldman, a human being --




VINNIE POLITAN, HLN HOST: You have a message this evening for Don West.

JEANTEL: I`m still here. I`m still strong. And I thank you. To show you and everyone I`m still focused on my education to become a law enforcer. And I know me and you had our ups and downs, a lot of them, but thank you for the challenge. And I hope you have a blessed life -- blessed life.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Trayvon`s parents responded to the controversial claim from Juror B37 that Trayvon himself played a, quote, "huge role in his own death". Listen to this from CBS.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you hear that juror who spoke out with Anderson Cooper? And what did you think when you heard her say that she believes that Trayvon played a huge role in his own death?

SYBRINA FULTON, MOTHER OF TRAYVON MARTIN: I don`t think she knows Trayvon. Trayvon is not a confrontational person. So instead of placing the blame on the teenager, we need to place the blame on the responsible adult. There were two people involved. We had an adult that was chasing the kid. And we had the kid, who I feel was afraid.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Straight out to "The Lion`s Den" -- here`s what I would like to ask and I`ll throw it to Loni Coombs. Trayvon`s mom says that she wishes the jury had an opportunity to really know Trayvon, who he was, and put that in context. Did they fail to paint a picture of Trayvon, or would that have opened the door to some of the other things that they didn`t want the juror to hear about Trayvon?

COOMBS: Well, you know, it`s really interesting you say that, Jane. I think one of the most important things a prosecutor does in a murder case is bring that victim to life for the jury. Remember, the defendant is sitting there breathing, talking in front of the jury every day and the jury cannot help but see them as a real life person.

Who brings the victim alive but the prosecutor? Now we`ve seen with Rachel Jeantel, it`s very interesting in these interviews that she has been giving since the verdict. We`re getting a much better picture of Trayvon through the interviews that she`s saying now, the statements that she`s making.

Is she saying he`s a perfect angel? No, but she`s making him much more human as a young teenage boy, which is exactly what he was. And I think that would have been very helpful for the jury to see.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I know you all want to weigh in but we have to take a break. This will continue. And also, Kim Goldman, the sister of murder victim Ron Goldman, weighing in on the Zimmerman case on the other side. Stay right there.


JUROR B37: I want people to know that we put everything into everything to get this verdict. We didn`t just go in there and say we`re going to come in here and just do guilty or not guilty. We thought about it for hours and cried over it afterwards. I don`t think any of us could ever do anything like that ever again.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: This just in. Jodi Arias is speaking out -- tweeting out. The seductive murderess is tweeting through a friend that she`s going back to trial for sure. The jury couldn`t agree whether she deserved life or the death penalty.

Here`s her tweet, quote, "The state rejected my third request for a plea to settle quietly and less expensively. Off to retrial we go. Sorry, taxpayers," end quote.

Arias convicted of brutally murdering ex-boyfriend Travis Alexander. Now she wants to make the prosecutor the bad guy? Typical. We`re going to be all over this for the coming days and weeks.



FULTON: Our son was not committing any crimes.

CROWD: No justice, no peace.

TRACY MARTIN, FATHER OF TRAYVON MARTIN: Not only did I lose a son, I lost a dear friend.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Verdict: we, the jury, find George Zimmerman not guilty.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Orenthal James Simpson not guilty of the crime of murder.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The judge asked us to respect the verdict in the criminal case. We have to do that. We disagree with that, but we have to respect it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s never closure. Ron is always gone.

MARTIN: And I made a promise that I won`t stop.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Some have compared the acquittal of George Zimmerman to O.J. Simpson`s not guilty verdict in terms of the intensity of the reaction and the polarization that followed. Kim Goldman`s brother Ron was brutally, brutally murdered along with O.J. Simpson`s ex-wife, Nicole Brown Simpson. Kim had to sit through every painful agonizing moment of the high profile O.J. Simpson murder trial. Only at the end of it to hear the jury`s highly controversial decision, not guilty, for O.J. Simpson.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We, the jury, in the above entitled action find the defendant, Orenthal James Simpson, not guilty of the crime of murder in violation of penal code section 187-A, a felon upon Ronald Lyle Goldman, a human being.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Kim`s brother`s death changed her life. She is now a victims` rights advocate. And I want to say our very special guest tonight, Kim Goldman, whose brother was so viciously murdered. There you are crying as your dad shakes his head over the not guilty verdict all those years ago.

Thanks for joining me tonight. You and Trayvon Martin`s parents shared something. You both heard a verdict that you found outrageous and reprehensible even incomprehensible. What advice would you give to the Martins as they sit in anguish tonight over how to deal with a verdict that feels like a betrayal?

KIM GOLDMAN, SISTER OF RON GOLDMAN: You know, it`s hard because all everybody wants to do is put their collective arms around them and give them a hug and tell them that they love them and that they care about them and that Trayvon`s life ended far too soon which is what we all our saying.

When they`re ready and have given themselves some time to get some peace and some comfort in that, then they move forward and they do what they need to do to change the lives if that`s what they feel is important to them to effect a different outcome for those of us that will follow in their footsteps.

I mean that`s what you do sometimes in the face of adversity, you go on to do amazing things in the name and the honor of the one that has passed away.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: As you have. It`s almost like a daily reprieve from the agony. You do something to make the world a better place and that will ease the suffering for one day.

Now, in both O.J. Simpson and the Zimmerman trials race became a huge issue. The Simpson`s defense team, as we all remember, took aim at Detective Mark Fuhrman`s alleged racism, pointing to the fact that he used the "n" word, although he claimed that it was in character for a screen play.

In George Zimmerman`s place, Trayvon`s friend Rachel Jeantel said that slur openly in front of the jury. Let`s listen.



BERNIE DE LA RIONDA, PROSECUTOR: He used the "n" word again and said "(EXPLETIVE DELETED) is behind me"?


DE LA RIONDA: And did you say anything to him at the time?

JEANTEL: I told him "You better run."


VELEZ-MITCHELL: I know this is a difficult question, Kim, but why has race and particularly the "n" word, why did it come up at both trials?

GOLDMAN: I think people have a hard time healing. And I think that morality and legality doesn`t always mesh. And we are now sitting here after the fact, very emotional over Trayvon`s killer not being held accountable and the same for my brother`s case. But when you look at the facts and evidence, neither race played a part in my opinion, in either of these cases.

I don`t believe that George Zimmerman acted with malice and intent to kill the same way that the killer did in my brother`s case. I mean there was hundreds of pieces of evidence to show the emotion behind the murder of my brother and Nicole. I don`t see that as the same here. I`m not diminishing it -- please don`t hear me say that.

I just think that we have a hard time understanding that morality does not play a part when it comes to deliberating trials. And it`s hard for us as emotional people to understand that concept.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All these many years later, almost a couple of decades later, have race relations gotten better in this country in your opinion, or are they the same or are they worse?

GOLDMAN: You know, we`re still talking about it. We`re still thinking that race plays a part in everything we do. I would like to broaden the scope a little bit and talk about things on a bigger level which is about our lack of humanity and our lack of love and compassion for each other. Our intolerance towards one another is at an all-time high. The Internet is a playground to breed hate and vilify people for having a difference of opinion. Whether it be who you vote for, who you pray to, who you love, what kind of food you eat.

I mean we are off the charts in terms of how we treat each other in this country. And that`s where we need to start look at in terms of how we treat each other and if we`re going to get justice in the courtroom.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I couldn`t agree with you more. I really hope this dialogue and this tragedy brings us together and doesn`t pull everyone further apart. It`s almost likely --

GOLDMAN: Well, it`s going to --


GOLDMAN: I was going to say, it`s going to if we don`t channel our energy in a place where it`s effective. Chanting and protesting in the streets, not a great use of our energy. Go to your legislator`s office. Go to your lobbyist. Know who is being, you know, elected into the district attorney`s office and who the judges are. Who your state`s attorney is, who your city council is at your school board, for God`s sake.

I mean be an educated participant in the process, and your voice can be heard, but shouting at the rooftops and looting your own neighborhood is not an effective use of our energy and not going to move the movement forward.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And thank you so much for joining us. It`s important to point out that the majority -- the vast majority of demonstrators have been peaceful. It`s been a relative handful that have gone over the top --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: But I really appreciate your insight. I hope you join us again. I love your voice and what you have to say and how you have turned your agony into a force for good. Thank you Kim Goldman --

GOLDMAN: Thanks Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- sister of murder victim Ron Goldman, we`re going to be back with more on the Zimmerman case on the other side.



JEANTEL: First of all Trayvon is not a thug. They need to know the definition of a thug to be judging a person, or a teenager, mind you, a teenager to post anything -- even I post anything to just brag. That is just brag.

PIERS MORGAN, CNN HOST: You mean the stuff on social media, Facebook and so on?

JEANTEL: Yes. They shouldn`t brag. It`s not true.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: J. Wyndal Gordon, your reaction to Kim Goldman.

J. WYNDAL GORDON, ATTORNEY: Well, I agree with her with regard to us having to have more -- being more humanistic or recognize the humanity and the intolerance in America with regard to human beings. But also, this case, there was some argument about it being a civil rights case. It`s not necessarily a civil rights case, but it is the most important case affecting the rights of the African-American male, whom I happen to be one of, and the African-American boy.


GORDON: It`s important that we start to discuss race. Race is not a dirty word. Don`t be afraid of the word.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We are talking about it now.

J. Wyndal, thank you so much. Thank you, fantastic panel. More on the other side.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Breaking news: critics are saying that 50,000 horses rounded up by our government are baking, baking in the hot sun and their lives are in danger. These majestic mustangs that roam the American West, rounded up by helicopters, paid for by our tax dollars, kept in government holding facilities -- 50,000 wild horses in burros broiling, broiling in government pens and pastures with temperatures surpassing 100 degrees.

Now critics say these animals are not being properly cared for during this extreme weather. One facility near Reno, Nevada has been pin pointed for not providing adequate shelter in sweltering heat.

Straight out to my dear friend Wayne Pacelle, president of The Humane Society of the United States. Wayne, we called six times to try to get the Interior Department or secretary Sally Jewell or the Bureau of Land Management that she oversees to respond. And finally they said, "Oh, we installed some sprinklers, and we`ve got a vet." Is that enough?

WAYNE PACELLE, PRESIDENT, HUMANE SOCIETY OF THE UNITED STATES: Jane, it`s not enough. I mean, this is just another symptom of our broken wild horse and burro management program. We`ve got 35,000 horses in 11 western states, but now we have 50,000 horses in short-term and long-term holding facilities.

HSUS has proposed sterilization of the animals, fertility control, rather than expensive round-ups, removing horses from the rightful place on our public lands, and putting them in holding facilities. And in this case, as you said, the Palomino Valley corals 1800 horses, no shade, no shelter, 100-plus degree temperatures forecast for the next five days. They have been kind of baking out there for many days.

It`s just another symptom of a broken problem that`s costing taxpayers money, harming horses and the American public doesn`t like it one bit.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And guess what? The arrogance of our government blows my mind. The Bureau of Land Management has been accused of institutionalized cruelty with these terrifying helicopter round-ups.

This is a woman, ok, I thought maybe she was going to do something. Sally Jewell, former chief executive of that outdoor equipment company, REI. We know all about that, the camping equipment store. She took over as Secretary of the Interior. These latest accusations, well, they`re just more of the same.

Wayne, what can the American people do to get this woman to listen to us?

PACELLE: Well, Secretary Jewell has just started. So we`ve got to give her a chance. But now is a moment for her to take some action with these Palomino Valley Coral horses. We`ve got to reform the program. We`ve got to stop these roundups. We`ve got to use fertility control to keep the horses on the range and not have them in the short-term and long- term holding facilities -- 50,000 horses.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What can the American people do? Should they call the Interior Department? Should they join the HSUS?

PACELLE: Well, joining the HSUS, absolutely. And also contacting members of Congress, contacting Secretary Jewell; a few phone calls. You can go to and get information on taking action to help America`s wild horses. They deserve better than this.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: They are baking in the hot sun. Secretary Jewell, have a heart. Have a heart. They`re dying in the hot sun.

Nancy is next.