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Amanda Bynes & Mental Illness; Zimmerman Juror Speaks Out

Aired July 25, 2013 - 21:00   ET



COURT CLERK: We, the jury, find the defendant, George Zimmerman, not guilty.

DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, a Zimmerman juror says he got away with murder.

Plus, Amanda Bynes may be minutes away from a life-saving decision. Police put on her a psychiatric hold three days ago, but they may have to release her any second.

And, money, guns, and murder. Was a 2-year-old toddler the only witness to her mother`s brutal death? I`ve got a prime-time exclusive with a neighbor. She says she knows the killer next door.

Let`s get started.



PINSKY: Good evening.

My co-host is Sirius XM Radio host and attorney, Jenny Hutt.

And coming up --


PINSKY: Hello, hello.

Coming up, the Zimmerman juror who says she owes Trayvon Martin`s parents an apology. Her identity revealed. But first, Amanda Bynes hospitalized three days ago. She was put on a 72-hour hold. This is a psychiatric hold, reserved for the most ill-patients in a psychiatric hospital, where they`re held against their will, because they are a danger to themselves and others.

Tonight, moments away from finding out if doctors will release her from that hold or extend it. This as a former friend talks about her for the first time. Take a look.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Amanda Bynes, probably one of your kid`s favorite Nickelodeon stars --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m just happy to be Amanda`s number one fan.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- has been forced into a psych hospital for a mental evaluation.

She is accused of lighting a gas can on fire in someone`s driveway.

PINSKY: She has to be held to keep her safe.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is just the latest strange incident for former child actress.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s guilty of sending nasty tweets and wearing bizarre wigs.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was thrown out of the Ritz Carlton in New York. She was there for nine days.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Amanda Bynes making headlines lately for her own series of run-ins with cops.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Arrested last night for allegedly throwing a bong out a window.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was actually kicked out of a gym class for strange behavior.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She had a car accident and she had a hit-and-run and then she got a DUI.

AMANDA BYNES, ACTRESS: I hope to one day just be as happy as I`m now.


PINSKY: And all this bizarre behavior has turned her into a punch line, but I`m telling you, Jenny, this is no laughing matter. This is serious. It is acute mental illness, it is dangerous.

Joining us, Lance Bass. He is Amanda`s friend and host of "Dirty Pop" on Sirius XM Radio; Samantha Schacher, host of "Pop Trigger" on Young Turks Network; Danine Manette, infidelity expert, author of "Ultimate Betrayal", and Wendy Walsh, psychologist and author of "30-Day Love Detox."

Wendy coming to us from London. Thank you for staying up. It`s either very early or very late there, depending on how you think about it.


PINSKY: Thank you, my dear.

First up, I`ve got CNN`s entertainment correspondent, Nischelle Turner, standing by with the latest.

Nischelle, what do you got?

NISCHELLE TURNER, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT: Well, tonight, Drew, there are various reports that are surfacing that that say that her parents could actually be headed to court in Ventura County, which is right outside of Los Angeles tomorrow, to start asking and petitioning the court to begin the process for conservatorship.

Now, whether this will happen, we`re not really sure. I did speak with her father, albeit briefly tonight on the phone, and the only thing he would do was confirm that he was Amanda`s father. He wouldn`t say much else. He would not confirm whether or not they were going to court tomorrow to begin this process.

He also said, listen, we don`t want to comment on this situation. You`re kind of wasting your time calling me, because we`re never going to comment. And I thought it was very interesting, because it`s a sharp difference from what we`ve seen with some of the other child stars who have been in trouble, i.e., the Lohans. Their parents are always commenting and talking, but they definitely didn`t want to say anything.

PINSKY: But very similar to Britney Spears and her family having stepped in and saved her life by giving a conservatorship, and very similar circumstances.

Nischelle, do you know if they have been visiting her at the hospital?

TURNER: You know, there were reports that they were visiting her, that maybe Amanda and her father has an estranged relationship, but he was still going with her mother. Her and her mother`s relationship is apparently better. So they were visiting her in the hospital.

And I think that`s a good thing, like you said, Dr. Drew, because I think she was held on this 72-hour 5150 hold, but that doctors could decide either to set her free or maybe keep her longer on maybe a two-week hold.

PINSKY: Yes, they`ll have a hearing. They probably already had the hearing, in fact. What they`ll do is bring a judge into the hospital and they actually have a formal hearing where the doctors present their data, as justifying the need for continuing restriction and restriction of her civil liberties and holding her against her will and I suspect she`ll get a 14-day hold.

Thank you, Nischelle.

Lance, you`ve known Amanda for a long time. What are your thoughts?

LANCE BASS, AMANDA BYNES` FRIEND: I`m just so happy that they got a 5150 on her. I think this is definitely the step that needs to be taken to, you know, make her better. As someone that`s, you know, known her for quite a while, I got to work with her, you know, on a film and got to know her pretty well, and she`s such a sweetheart.

And we all know Amanda Bynes as this lovable girl that was the next Lucille Ball, and I really believed in her. And you know, it happens.

This is -- you know, I definitely see a borderline, you know, disorder, you know, personality disorder in this. I mean, it`s like textbook. It`s common sense. I`m no doctor at all, but just common sense tells me that it`s BPM.

PINSKY: Jenny, do you have something?

HUTT: I do. Dr. Drew, I want to ask you a question.

Does this happen more frequently with the entertaining type kids, the entertainers, or all kids at this age?

PINSKY: This is the age -- and, Wendy, I`m going to ask me to back me up on this as a licensed psychologist, this is the age, 18 to 22, 18 to 25, when major mental illness strikes. It`s just like heart disease hitting later in life, mental illness hits now. Schizophrenia, bipolar mania, this is when it comes on.

People always think they`re looking at substance abuse because that`s so common these days. But, Wendy, I think we`re just seeing a lovely young girl who gets struck by a real medical condition.

WALSH: And the difference here is that she`s doing it publicly. She`s doing it in the limelight, because she does have followers and fans. But think of families out there in America, Dr. Drew, with young adults who are also suffering from mental illness. And you see this onset. You know, Nischelle mentioned earlier that she may have not good relationships with her parents.

Well, at the beginning of all of this, it just seems like anti-social, awful behavior, so the onset of mental illness causes the disruption in these close family relationships. We have to remember. These aren`t bad parents who are having bad relationships with their kids. It`s the symptomology of the onset of this.

PINSKY: That`s exactly right. And not only that, when somebody has a major mental illness, they lose insight. Danine, they lose the ability to see that they`re acting in an abnormal way. That`s part of the condition.

You think, though, that being scrutinized by the media is making things worse. Is that correct?

DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: I do. And I think that now, because we have so much social media and people that can sit there and say whatever they want about somebody and attack them constantly, I mean, I`m a grown woman, and I read the things that people say about me online and sometimes it`s hurtful.

So, can you imagine an adolescent or young adult who`s going through this time period in their life and struggling with these issues and hearing all of the negative comments and things that people are saying about them? It`s got to make the situation worse. It`s got to be hurtful.

PINSKY: And, Samantha, the thing that scares me is that the people online, on social media, encourage people`s illness, as opposed to saying, hey, honey, get some help, please.

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: I`m so happy you brought that up, Dr. Drew, because her followers, not all of them, but her followers are a special breed. Amanda Bynes has really taken to her Twitter account, almost like it`s her confidant. This is where we`ve seen her rants, her comments, and where also she interacts with her followers.

And her followers, like you said, Dr. Drew, they encourage her, they tell her, you`re not mentally ill, Amanda Bynes, you`re funny, you`re hilarious. And they literally retweet every mean-spirited tweet that she tweets.

If people do try to express any type of concern, like you did, Dr. Drew, or Lance did, those same followers attack you guys. It`s crazy and it`s disturbing.

BASS: Yes.

SCHACHER: And I don`t know what type of impact that has had on her, as Danine said.

PINSKY: It`s certainly allowed this to spiral out of control. And, Lance, from my perspective, that`s the thing for people that are child stars, who are on the media, or under the scrutiny of fame, it`s so much -- maybe you disagree with me, but it`s not so much the scrutiny of fame, it`s the opportunity to spiral farther out of control than the average person.

Do you agree with that or do you think it is the fame?

BASS: You know, it`s a little bit of both. And when the whole world`s watching, especially with social media, like y`all were just talking about, that`s where it gets really dangerous. And you have all these people, just a few months ago, you know, she -- her Twitter account had just a few thousand people. Now, it`s up to almost a million people.

And it`s really just because they want to see Amanda, you know, spiral down. You know, they love this drama of what this actor is going through. And that`s the real dangerous part, to me, is that she doesn`t -- she can`t separate what`s fact and what`s fiction. And you have these people behind her, you know, encouraging her to be as crazy as she possibly can. And that is so dangerous.

PINSKY: And lance, you said you -- you know, for sure, this is a lovely girl. She`s a very talented girl. But I imagine you saw signs, when this first sort of started developing.

BASS: Right. It was funny, yesterday I had Alfonzo Rivera on my show, and we actually did the movie "Love Wrecked" with her, and we were both commenting on, wow, did you see something going down during the filming of this movie?

And we did see little pieces of her changing from the sweet little Amanda we knew to almost becoming a little bit demanding on the set, which was so not her. And that was when I first started noticing a little difference in Amanda`s personality.

PINSKY: When was the last time you saw her?

BASS: Last time I saw her was probably in March. I was at a birthday party that she was at. And even then, it had gotten to the point where a lot of her best friends had kind of moved on from her relationship as a friend, because they couldn`t really keep up with her. She was just doing really strange things.

PINSKY: Yes. Alienation, Wendy, that`s the thing. Next up, what parents to do --

WALSH: Doctor --

PINSKY: Go ahead. You want to say something, please finish.

WALSH: I just want to say briefly, the entertainment industry doesn`t help, because it enables it. When people act out or act demanding, that`s considered normal narcissism for the business. So, you miss the symptoms early for a while.

PINSKY: Right, that`s very true. Again, they spiral out of control. That`s the thing about fame.

The reason people struggle to be famous is because it`s an OK thing. It`s not a bad thing, it`s a good thing. That`s why a lot of people struggle to do it. And when they get there, they have the ability to spiral much further out of control than the average person, who has an employer and a family and less money and power.

So, they can just -- someone grab them and say, hey, let`s get to the hospital, we`re getting to the hospital, we`re going to take care of this, something`s wrong, they continue to spiral, their social media supports it, it doesn`t go well. Next, what do parents do to help a growing child in trouble? We`ll tackle the behavior bureau with that.

And later, hear from the Zimmerman juror who says she can`t eat or sleep since the verdict.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You ever been to jail?

BYNES: Nope. No, not yet.




Amanda Bynes, what kind of a starlet are you?

BYNES: I know. What`s wrong with me? I don`t know. It`s shocking how it`s become popular to go to rehab, right?


PINSKY: Back with my behavior bureau. Jenny Hutt is my co-host. That was Amanda Bynes in better days.

And let`s be clear, she is not in rehab. She`s in a psychiatric hospital at the highest level of acute clearance, like, the intensive care unit. In fact, we used to call the unit where we put patients on 5150, the ICU, the intensive care unit.

Lance, it seems like New York, when she went to New York is when things really started to unravel.

BASS: Right.

It`s true. To me, it started unraveling when she did get a Twitter account and was tweeting a lot about her boyfriends and men, and that`s when we started to see there was something was going on. And then, once a lot of her friends abandoned her, she isolated herself in New York City. And that`s where it really went south.

And, you know, her and her cell phone, with that Twitter account, we all saw what happened then.

PINSKY: Well, you and I got a little bit of a Twitter war with her, so to speak.

BASS: We`re officially in the ugly club.

PINSKY: I`m in the ugly club. Show -- if you can put the full screen up, I was trying to be supportive. I thought, like you, the Twitter accounts were making her worse and really dangerous behavior.

BASS: Of course.

PINSKY: I said, you know, she`ll get helps if she wants it and if she needs it and hopefully before something happens. And then she fired back, "What are you talking about? What kind of help are you referring to? You`re ugly and I want you to leave me alone!"

And I thought, A, she`s pretty fun, but, boy, I meant nothing but except just to --

BASS: And we try to help, and she erased all her e-mail accounts, all her cell phone numbers, everything. So the only way for all of her old friends to get in touch with her was through the Twitter account. And I did the same thing. I just wanted to say, look, I`m there for you, if you need me, and, you know, I got attacked as well.

PINSKY: Here`s what I think. I think she may come out of this well, she`s in proper care. She could be a spokesperson for these kinds of illnesses some day. She could live a rich and very productive life in entertainment. She will no longer be doing Twitter, I would imagine, if she gets proper treatment, and we can look forward to that.

But in the meantime, I`m going to go around the panel and start with Danine. What should the parents do? What do you believe parents should do in this situation? An adult child with mental illness, what can parents do?

MANETTE: You know, I`m really big on this. This is something that I`m always going back to, what I feel is the parent`s responsibility in this situation. Whether it`s, you know, a child, or whether it`s a young adult. But from what I understand, also, there`s been signs of this for a while.

And you know, that she covered up the radio, because she didn`t want to hear voices when she was little, they just need to go all in. They need to take a page out of Britney Spears` dad`s book, go all in, do whatever it takes, cut all stops, and make sure she gets whatever help she needs, because she is spiraling out of control.

PINSKY: I agree. Jenny, I think that`s what`s going to save her life. Jenny, your thoughts?

HUTT: Well, I hope the parents are well-intending and good. We don`t know much about them. We don`t really know about her relationship with them. And if her parents are constructive people, then this will be a good thing for her.

But can I ask you a question, Dr. Drew?


HUTT: You said before, when someone`s spiraling into crazy, they don`t know they`re acting crazy.

PINSKY: Right. They lose insight. They lose insight.

HUTT: So are you saying that if we know when we`re acting crazy, then we`re probably not crazy?

PINSKY: Jenny, is this a personal question?


HUTT: It might be. It might be.

PINSKY: Yes, when you worry about crazy, it usually means you`re anxious and it doesn`t mean you`re crazy. You know, a little anxiety is OK. Wendy, your thoughts?

WALSH: Well, I think that parents, if there is a take-home for parents here, it is act on as much of the symptoms as you can, before the 18th birthday, because as you know, we have a real hard time in America, with personal and individual freedoms and also the ability to get care to somebody who may not be mentally fit. So, now they`ve got to go through the legal process.

I`m actually very delighted to hear that the parents aren`t commenting.


WALSH: So the fact they`re seeking privacy is a good step.

PINSKY: Good boundaries, healthy boundaries. I could not agree with you more. We have somebody shooting up a first grade room because adults - - a parent didn`t come in and get a conservatorship over an adult child who needed help and we have to get the help.

These people are ill and we`re doing them -- we are helping them -- people have this discomfort like, oh, I don`t want to ruin the relationship. Who are we to say -- physicians, no. Psychologists, no, we do know. We`re going to help them.

WALSH: And parents love to be in denial, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Well, it`s hard.

WALSH: I see in our public school system and I`m always trying to encourage parents to get an IEP, an individual education program, for kids who can get extra help in different ways. But everyone`s afraid of a diagnosis. No, it helps you, it really does.

PINSKY: It`s painful to notice your kids are sick.

Samantha, any comments?

SCHACHER: Yes. Well, Dr. Drew, really quickly, what would you recommend? You say these symptoms come up after the 18th birthday, in the early 20s. So how are the parents supposed to try to get their young 20- something-year-old child help when, like you just said, they don`t know that they`re acting crazy. What do you do?

PINSKY: I`ve done it a million times with parents. You use every bit of leverage you have, whether it`s financial, whether it`s interpersonal, whether whatever resources you have, you leverage it. If it`s using law enforcement, you use them. You use whatever you`ve got.

And if that fails, you go to the court and do exactly what we think these parents are doing. You get a conservatorship. I`ve told hundreds of parents to get conservatorships and can think of three or four that have actually did it.

People are afraid to do it and it is life saving.

Lance, from what you witnessed, what do you think -- do you think she`s going to accept treatment or do you think that she may actually manipulate the system and spiral back out of control?

BASS: I don`t think it`s going to be easy. I`m so glad that she`s, you know, where she is now, that the parents are actually involved, because, you know, I know that they were not able to get in touch with her for a very long time.

I talked to her mom not too long ago. And they`re your typical parents. You know, they`re just like my parents, just very quiet, shy. I mean, what do you do?

And what they need to understand is -- this is not Amanda. You know, this person that they`re dealing with is not really her. And they need to do whatever they can to stick by her and try to get her as much help as possible, because when they do get her whatever it is, the right meds or the right counseling, she`ll be thanking them in the end.

PINSKY: Yes, it`s how we get the person back, it`s by dealing with the brain disease. Again, we deal with illnesses below the neck differently than we deal with illnesses above the neck and we just should not.

Imagine she was having a seizure and you need to get her back from that. That`s what I try to get people to understand that.

We will get Amanda back, Lance. I like the way you framed that.

Thank you, panel.

Next up, Ms. Ali is back. We`re going to get her reaction to one of the Zimmerman jurors, saying she owes Trayvon Martin`s parents an apology. That`s right.

And later, a mother is found shot dead alone in a house with her 2- year-old daughter. We`ll hear from a neighbor.

More after this.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt.

Breaking news in the George Zimmerman case. Juror B-29, so called, the one holdout who has not spoken since the verdict, has given an interview to ABC News. The woman who goes only by Maddy says she thought Zimmerman was guilty of killing Trayvon Martin, but her hands were tied. Take a look.


JUROR B-29: As the law was read to me, if you have no proof that he killed him intentionally, you can`t find -- you can`t say he`s guilty.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you want to step out at all? Did you want to quit?

JUROR B-29: I was the juror that was going to give them the hung jury. Oh, I was. I fought to the end.


PINSKY: Joining us, attorney Loni Coombs, author of "You`re Perfect and Other Lies Parents Tell"; criminologist and attorney Casey Jordan, star of "Wives with Knives" on Investigation Discovery; Crystal Wright from; and Shahrazad Ali, author of "Are You Still a Slave?"

Ms. Ali, did this juror stepping forward affect you, I`m wondering, on your thoughts?

SHAHRAZAD ALI, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, I did. You know, she said that Zimmerman killed Trayvon and that he was guilty. We already knew that, but I know what she`s having is a mental conflict, because she didn`t feel that she did enough to maybe get him convicted.

And that`s very similar to what we feel as black people, because we love white people. And the conflict is that we know how badly we have been treated by white people, but that creates a conflict in us, because you give us nothing in return for the love that we show, and so that plagues us, and it gives us a progress. So, I know what she`s going through, and she`ll be conflicted the rest of her life.

PINSKY: And I know you always go there. Maybe the conflict is that you see disappointment whenever you`re let down, and that hurts deeper --

ALI: Oh, no, no, no.

PINSKY: No? I`m not saying you`re not let down.

ALI: This is not the imagination of truth. This is not the imagination of truth. This is the truth.

PINSKY: All right. Casey, what about this woman stepping forward? What are your thoughts?

CASEY JORDAN, ATTORNEY: The one thing I took away from what she said, she is, indeed, very conflicted, but she followed the law.

Yes, she thinks that he was guilty, but of what? The law did not provide an avenue for a verdict that she could actually back up.

The law is written very badly. The stand your ground is this huge nebulous thing, where as long as the victim dies, it`s one person`s word against a dead person. So it`s whatever they say. And she had to find reasonable doubt, because Trayvon Martin isn`t around to tell his side of the story. She didn`t like that.

PINSKY: But, Loni, we keep talking about stand your ground, and yet I don`t think that really figured into the jury instructions, did it?

LONI COOMBS, ATTORNEY: No, not really. And the interesting here is she actually said her was that her concern was that the law required that they find that he intentionally killed, which is interesting, because that`s actually not the law under second-degree murder.

But I have to say, Dr. Drew, I actually agree with Ms. Ali about something. I read disappointment and maybe even some anger in this juror`s words, and I think it was directed at the prosecution, because she said, this whole thing was a political ploy. I don`t think that the case should have been brought at all.

The verdict was already there, if you know the law. It should never have been brought. And honestly, it`s like, the prosecution tossed the hot potato to us, the jurors. Now, we have the burden of carrying that responsibility for finding him not guilty.

PINSKY: That`s very, very interesting.

Crystal, was this a publicity stunt through the attorney`s offices?

CRYSTAL WRIGHT, CONSERVATIVEBLACKCHICK.COM: Well, it looks like a publicity stunt on the part of the juror, B-29, because as Loni pointed out, there`s a lot of conflicting information here. First, she comes out and she says there was no evidence to support that George Zimmerman murdered Trayvon. Then, she says, oh, he`s guilty, I know he`s guilty, and we tried to make him guilty, we couldn`t. And then she says, you know, she felt like it was a publicity stunt and it should have never gone to trial.

So, this juror seems a lot more calculating than she`s trying -- and she`s trying to go for a book deal. And I wonder how much information she had about the trial before she became a juror.

And, you know, this is just a drip, drip, drip of jurors trying to get book deals. And I think, frankly, they all need to be quiet, because they`re all giving conflicting information. I think it was an unbearable task that they had, I agree with that, but they really need to be quiet, because they`re not helping anybody.

PINSKY: Jenny, you disagree?

HUTT: Yes, I totally disagree with you, Crystal, and here`s why.


WRIGHT: I`m surprised. I`m surprised.

HUTT: I think this juror has compassion for the martin family. I think this juror did the right thing by the letter of the law and followed the jury instructions and ultimately gave in to the not guilty verdict, because she knew she had to do the right thing based on the law.

But, like so many of us feel, something went horribly wrong that night, due to George Zimmerman`s behavior. So, for you to doubt her compassion or to think this is a PR stunt, what`s the stunt? What does it really get her?

PINSKY: And, Crystal, here`s something that will not surprise you, Ms. Ali disagrees with you.

ALI: Well, you remember, Dr. Drew, I think all of you do. I guess it`s two or three weeks ago, I mentioned that the instructions that you get in the jury room are so convoluted and so confusing that when you come out, the only person you think is guilty is yourself.

And that`s exactly what this woman is feeling. She said they couldn`t convict under Florida`s law, because every instruction there keeps you from bringing in a conviction.

PINSKY: But Casey, I`ve heard -- hang on, Crystal, I want to talk to the expert, the legal expert. Casey, I`ve heard similar sort of criticisms of jury instructions.

JORDAN: Yes. And sometimes, they`re 100, 130 pages. But one of the other things that juror 29 said was that she was the one holdout. And that is one thing we see in jurors all the time. That if the one holdout is a minority, he or she just can`t prevail against the pressures of the other people.

And I think that`s why she feels guilty, because she feels like she should have held out. And she says, I would have been the hung jury, I would have been that person. She couldn`t live with that, but now she`s having a hard time living with the verdict.

PINSKY: And Crystal, you know Miss Ali agrees with that, but there`s the facts coming from Casey.

WRIGHT: Here`s why I question her and I know you all don`t agree with me and I respect that. She said she`s afraid and she didn`t want to talk, she doesn`t want her identity revealed. Why would you go on national television and talk to Robin Roberts. Your face has revealed.

JORDAN: Because she feels guilty.

WRIGHT: I mean, the pieces aren`t adding up on this. She said she doesn`t want her identity revealed. She uses her first name. Come on, guys.

PINSKY: She`s the only minority, as we know, on the six-woman jury. She`s in part Hispanic. She says the case which to her point was, apparently this interview, she says, Loni, that it was never about race. Your reaction?

LONI COOMBS, ATTORNEY: You know what, every one of the jurors that have spoken out have said that. It wasn`t about race. And I think we should take their word for it. They`re the one who sat there and listened to the evidence and, you know what, let`s just let everybody have their own opinion. Other people may see race and that`s fine, other people may not.

And if the jurors say they didn`t feel that it was about race and they sat there and listened to it in the trial and listen to the evidence come in, let`s just respect that. You know, as a prosecutor for 18 years, I know how vital the jurors are to the system. And we`ve got to stop bashing the jurors for whatever they do.

They sat there every day. They were sequestered. They listened to that evidence. They were emotional about the outcome. They gave it all they could give, and then, they rendered their verdict. And whatever they say, let`s just respect it and appreciate the service that they give us.

PINSKY: And we have more fallout from the Zimmerman verdict up next.

And later, a successful orthodontist is murdered. Her husband is the prime suspect. Here with a neighbor witness in a primetime exclusive after this.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody has concluded that it is so arbitrary, how this law has been applied.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There ought to be a Trayvon Martin law, which is an anti-stand your ground federal piece of legislation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That says you can`t simply profile our children, shoot them in the heart, kill them, and say that you were defending yourself.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. We are discussing the fallout from the George Zimmerman acquittal. That was a discussion on whether or not there should be an anti-stand your ground federal law. And before the break, Loni pointed out to me we need to respect jurors and support jurors and it`s not about race, but I know Miss Ali has thoughts.

SHAHRAZAD ALI, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I wanted to tell y`all about another case that wasn`t about racism. In 1963, three White men bombed a church with four little black schoolgirls in it. They got a $1,000 fine and six months in jail. They had a White judge and an all-White jury. Are there any similarities here?


WRIGHT: No, there are not, because that was before the civil rights acts.


ALI: Same jury, same verdict. Same jury, same verdict.

COOMBS: Miss Ali, I think you`re making assumptions and stereotypes about White jurors, just like you`re asking people not to make about African-American people and young boys and, you know, I don`t think any of us benefit by putting stereotypes on people and just pre-judging or prejudicing things about them without knowing who they are, without --

ALI: you all have --

COOMBS: -- without respecting their own experiences, their own life experiences. We don`t know who these jurors were or what --

ALI: All White people have benefited from Black stereotypes. All White people --

COOMBS: I don`t even know what that means.

ALI: -- have benefited from Black stereotypes.

COOMBS: I don`t even know what that means. How do you benefit from stereotypes? I`m not even sure what that means.

ALI: Well, stereotypes that we are immoral, stereotypes that all we want to do is have jokes and dance, stereotypes that we are dumb --

COOMBS: How do we benefit from that?


COOMBS: -- there`s no benefit from that.

ALI: That`s a stereotype. That`s a stereotype.

PINSKY: Crystal, go ahead. Give a response here, Crystal.

WRIGHT: Yes. I just want to talk about the clip you ran, what we`re supposed to be talking about, which is the Congressional Black Caucus hearing that happened yesterday.

And what I think is really shameful and pathetic about that is the Congressional Black Caucus has done nothing over the last five years to address the violence in the Black community, the high unemployment, and the solution that we heard -- you know, Tracy Martin wants a statue built in honor of his son.

You know, I think it`s fine if he wants to advocate for a federal preemption of stand your ground, but a statue? I mean, come on. The problems facing Black Americans are largely the cause of Black Americans. And I do not believe Trayvon Martin was profiled. This has turned into a platform for people like Shahrazad to misrepresent the reality of race relations in this country --


PINSKY: Hang on. I want to go to Casey. Hang on. And Casey, here`s what I want to ask you is that what Miss Ali is talking about, one of the things she talks about is not being able to trust the law because of the history of it not representing -- or being something that she could trust historically, that the trauma of the law working against her is still with her. How do we help people understand that the law does now and can now work for them?

JORDAN: It`s not a mistake to look at history. But we must learn from it and not use it and make blanket generalizations about today. The case you talked about was 50 years ago. We have made so much progress. Let`s talk about the progress --

ALI: No, we haven`t. No, we haven`t.

JORDAN: Let me finish --


JORDAN: Miss Ali, when you say that White people like to stereotype Black people and they enjoy it, you are, therefore, stereotyping White people. It`s the same game.

ALI: No, I`m not.

JORDAN: Two wrongs don`t make a right.

ALI: You all benefit from --

JORDAN: Let`s just talk about the facts. And do you benefit by stereotyping White people so that you can keep the distance between the races. Let`s stop the distance --

ALI: You all are in denial. You`re in denial about the facts.

JORDAN: All of us? All of us, Miss Ali? All of us? All of us? Me too?

ALI: Oh, no --


JORDAN: All of us? Everyone on this panel?

ALI: No.

JORDAN: All right. So stop using blanket generalizations, because it`s divisive language, Miss Ali, and I`m really interested in bringing us together --

ALI: Yes, I know.

JORDAN: -- to find out how we can change this --

ALI: We have to talk about racism in the way you all want to talk about it.

PINSKY: Well, no Miss Ali --

JORDAN: You`re here! You`re here.

PINSKY: You know, I`m giving you a chance to talk about it the way you want to talk about it. I`m fascinated by the way you talk about it and I want to dissect --

ALI: And I appreciate that. And Dr. Drew, since I`m leaving tonight, this is my last --

PINSKY: Hold on, Crystal --


PINSKY: Go ahead.

ALI: Crystal, you don`t have to understand anything. You don`t own this station. You don`t have to understand -- nobody owe you an explanation. But what I would like to do tonight, Dr. Drew is I would like to give a few suggestions to White America about how we can make an end racism and how we will feel better.

PINSKY: Is it something that we`re going to find -- is it without offending anybody?

ALI: Oh, right, of course, it is!

PINSKY: OK. Let`s hear it and then we`ll wrap up the panel.

ALI: You know I don`t offend people.

PINSKY: If this is really your swan song, I want to hear it. Let`s go.

ALI: Well, I will need White people to stop telling us jokes and expecting to us laugh every time you get to talk to us in private. We don`t want to laugh all the time and we don`t want to hear your jokes.

PINSKY: All right.

ALI: Stop expecting us every time we go out to dance, we don`t want to dance and jig all the time.

PINSKY: All right.

ALI: And stop talking to us about sexual things. It`s none of your business.


ALI: We don`t want to talk to you about sex.

PINSKY: All right.

ALI: And stop every time you get around us asking us where you can store some drugs. Those are things that hurt our feelings and insult us.

PINSKY: Done and done. Thank you, panel.

Next, a primetime exclusive. A woman is found dead, shot multiple times and left wrapped in a blanket. Hear what her neighbor witnessed just weeks before the killing. Do not go away.



PINSKY (voice-over): She was a beautiful and beloved orthodontist. He was her handsome husband and the father of their two-year-old daughter. But this seemingly picture-perfect marriage turned deadly. Tonight, 42- year-old Randy Maidens stands accused of pumping ten bullets into his wife, Rachel, then allegedly fleeing their plush country club mansion, reportedly leaving his toddler-aged daughter home alone with the body of her mommy.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. A reminder, you know, you all heard that Miss Ali was planning to leave us tonight. I know some of you don`t like Miss Ali. Some of you love her. She is welcome back. I bet we`ll see her again on this program. Jenny, you OK with that?

HUTT: Yes, of course.

PINSKY: OK, fine. Now, we`re joined by Wendy Walsh, Loni Coombs, Casey Jordan. Casey, he allegedly kills his wife and leaves the body with his two-year-old daughter. What are your thoughts? Who does that?

JORDAN: Well, two kinds of people do that, evil and sick. So, the remaining question is which category does he fall into. I mean, you look at this guys and he fits a category of actually a mass murder, we call pseudo commando. What we`ve heard, and you`re going to go over it, about the neighbor`s testimony, is that he`s crawling around the woods with a mask and you see in the picture, he`s jacked, he has huge muscles.

And he`s the going around with his dog, and you have to wonder, is this a setup so he can kill his wife and claim mental illness? Is he just going to malinger for inheritance? Is he having an affair? Is it about life insurance, or what is he really decompensating and has he no clue and is he going to stage an insanity defense because he`s truly mentally ill.

PINSKY: Well, Casey, you mentioned that he`s jacked. And it`s interesting, the Seacat case, was it Seacat, guys? Do we have a picture of him and we put him side-by-side with this guy. Look at the look in their eyes. You see the white above their pupil. That is sort of a manic thing that people get. And we talk to somebody who said Seacat was on steroids as well.

You say he`s jacked, maybe he took steroids, got manic. Let`s get talk to the neighbor, Cynthia Rosenblum who joins us exclusively. Now, Cynthia, you had a very strange encounter with Randy Maidens. Can you tell us about that?

CYNTHIA ROSENBLUM, NEIGHBOR OF MURDER SUSPECT: Yes. About three weeks before the murder, I was home after school one afternoon, sitting (ph) in my den, and one of my dogs started to bark his alert bark. So, I stood up and looked out the French windows to the backyard, and through the backyard to the forest, and as just seen a backward (ph) coyote, I saw a man running across the forest line.

And I thought that was very strange. So, I went out a side door and I tracked him. And he went down to a ravine area still off my property in the woods and slid down. And he was wearing all black, including a ski mask and a backpack that was cylinder shaped. And as he slid, he pulled off the mask and two yellow labs ran up to him and he spoke to them, and then stood up and walked further down to the ravine.

And I decided to watch to see if he came up in our neighborhood and he did. He came up at a black fence where there is a deer trail and I decided to confront him. So, I walked over to about 30 feet from him and I said, "what are you doing?" And he was startled. And he said, "do you think the weather will ever change" or something to that effect. And I said, "what are you doing?"

And he said, "I live right there." And he pointed at the house where the murder later occurred. And then I said, "what are you doing?" And he said, "My wife`s a doctor and I promised her I would take the dogs for a walk and I got lost." And I said, well --

PINSKY: Cynthia, I want to ask you, did he seem sped up, was he out of breath, was his language very pressured? Did you notice that sort of thing?

ROSENBLUM: I just felt like he was avoiding the questions. So, I finally said to him, "well, I recognize your dogs," but it`s pretty creepy to look out your back window and see a man running through the forest and he just laughed and walked off.

PINSKY: Interesting. And there we see him again, talking about him being jacked, Wendy. So, the question is, is he a criminal, is he evil, or is he a sick guy? I`m formulating an opinion that he might be bipolar. He might have been taken steroids. Wendy, your thoughts?

WENDY WALSH, PH.D., AUTHOR, "30-DAY LOVE DETOX": Yes. It`s funny you mention steroids because that`s where my thought went to. I mean, this sort of paramilitary kind of behavior, these pumped up muscles. He`s a 42- year-old guy. Who knows what is in his system? But Dr. Drew, we should not remiss and we have to talk about this two-year-old and this trauma, because that`s what`s breaking my heart.

And I want to remind people that, you know, I hate it when I hear people dismiss, well, thank goodness they won`t remember it, you know, it was so long ago, they`ll forget, because as you know, Dr. Drew, that those memories, when you`re pre-verbal, get stored in the body as feelings.

That kind of trauma, before you have a good narrative memory connected with words, is really traumatic and can cause so much emotional pain.

PINSKY: Absolutely. Jenny, finish. I`ve got to go.

HUTT: Yes. It`s just not -- it must not be a coincidence that there seems to be so many spousal murders, right, Dr. Drew? What is that?

PINSKY: Well -- let`s talk about that after a break. A police detective described this murder scene in the Maidens` home. Back in a moment.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. We`ve been talking about the shooting death of Dr. Rachel Maidens. She was an orthodontist, the mother of a two-year-old. The alleged killer, her husband, Randy. A detective recently testified with details of this murder. Take a look.


LT. JOHN WOOD, BRENTWOOD POLICE DEPARTMENT: There were a total of eight handgun rounds, spent rounds that were inside the body, particularly from the back, and then also two shotgun rounds that were fired into the body as well.


PINSKY: It`s terrible. And before the break, Jenny asked, Casey, the question, why all these women being killed by spouses. Now, in my experience, when somebody has a drug-induced mania, the preoccupation, the delusional preoccupations, the paranoias, are focused on close relationships. Do you think that has something to do with this? Casey, first.

JORDAN: Oh, without a doubt. And depending on jurisdiction, 60 to 80 percent of women who are murdered are murdered by their husbands, boyfriends, exes, stalkers. You get the idea. Only three percent of men are killed by their wives. I mean, the dichotomy is tremendous. And it really has to do with a lot with that whole, yes, mental illness, drugs, alcohol abuse.

But when they decompensate, they strike out at the person closest to them. You know, because it`s a power issue. Women are not used to being empowered. They just give up the ghost (ph).

PINSKY: And Loni, even though we may have a mental health issue here, I think the law is going to come down on him, do you agree

COOMBS: Absolutely. And just that evidence you got right there that he used two different kinds of guns, a handgun and a shotgun. I mean, right there, that`s a very chilling piece of evidence that he felt the need to make sure that he had backup firepower to make sure she was killed or perhaps he was trying to make it look like two different killers were involved.

I mean, it might be mental illness. It might be that he had a secret that she found out about, that was going to come out. I mean, we see a lot of spouses killing their spouses because of that. It might be an alcohol issue. There`s evidence he got a DUI and that he had made some threats against her life when he was drunk at a work situation.

So, there`s a lot of things that might be going on here. Might be mental illness, but it could be other things.

PINSKY: I smell substance. Wendy, do you want to take us home?

WALSH: Yes. Well, I think that it could be substance, but it also could be just the stresses. They live in a big mansion. Where`s the money coming from? The stresses of having a young family, a small two-year-old, maybe she wants to quit her job, maybe she`s got life insurance over her.

As you know, Dr. Drew, I host a show on Investigation Discovery called "Happily Never After," where brides or grooms kill each other. It`s usually the groom that kills the bride. And it has to do with the fact that so many women fall in love with love and miss all the red flags on love`s race course.

PINSKY: Which is very common.

WALSH: Just saying.

PINSKY: Yes, just saying. But again, we`ve been talking all night about people getting to help before disaster occurs. And if you see somebody in trouble, leveraging them into help. We start with Amanda Bynes. We end with this one. Thank you, panel. "Last Call`s" next.


PINSKY: Thank you to my co-host, Jenny Hutt. Thank you all for watching. We will see you next time. "HLN After Dark" begins right now.