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CONNECT THE WORLD

Bradley Manning Not Guilty; Jordan's Syrian Border Closes; Israel, Palestine Agree To Peace Talks Framework

Aired July 30, 2013 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BECKY ANDERSON, HOST: Tonight, Bradley Manning's fate revealed. The U.S. army private behind the largest ever leak of secret U.S. government files is cleared of aiding the enemy. He could still face considerable jailtime after being found guilty of some of the lesser charges against him.

What does this verdict mean for another famous leaker, Edward Snowden? We'll hear from his father.

Also ahead, just hours after meeting Egypt's deposed president Mohamed Morsy, what the EU's top diplomat told CNN.

And football mourns the loss of Ecuadoran strike Christian Benitez, dead after just weeks at his new club in Qatar. Tonight, the growing mystery over just how he died.

Live from Abu Dhabi tonight, this is Connect the World. I'm Becky Anderson.

And straight to my colleague in the U.S. Jake Tapper who is speaking to none other than Edward Snowden's father. Listen in.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Former intelligence analyst showed the world what one man with a thumb drive and a head full of ideas can do, for right or for wrong.

He admitted swiping about 700,000 documents while serving in Iraq and giving them to WikiLeaks, the outfit run by Julian Assange, which threw them up online for the world to see. The prosecution claimed that Manning knew al Qaeda could use that information and they said some of the information turned up in Osama bin Laden's compound, hence the unsuccessful aiding the enemy charge.

WikiLeaks reacted to the verdict today on its Twitter account, calling it -- quote -- "dangerous national security extremism from the Obama administration and a very serious new precedent for supplying information to the pressure." Manning may not get an outright life sentence but his guilty plea and conviction on the other counts could bring more than 130 years in prison. The Army will not keep us in suspense on that. Sentencing is expected to happen tomorrow.

If Edward Snowden has learned the news about Bradley Manning, it was probably in Russian and probably on a TV in the Moscow Airport, where he's been stuck for more than a month now has he seeks asylum. Snowden of course is that other former intelligence worker who has leaked a treasure trove of U.S. intelligence secrets in this case to media outlets, such as "The Guardian" newspaper and "The Washington Post."

Snowden told "The Guardian" that he admires Manning, but he sees himself as different from Manning because he evaluated each document before disclosing it.

Right now, I want to welcome Edward Snowden's father, Lon Snowden, along with his attorney, Bruce Fein, to THE LEAD.

Thanks so much for being here. I appreciate it.

Lon, after the verdict today, Manning found not guilty of aiding the enemy, guilty of 20 other charges. Does that give you any more hope that your son could get a fair trial in the U.S.?

LON SNOWDEN, FATHER OF EDWARD SNOWDEN: No, not that he could get a fair trial in the U.S., absolutely not. And there are certainly different circumstances. People want to compare both cases, completely different.

TAPPER: How are they different?

SNOWDEN: Well, first and foremost I think my son has exercised discretion in the information that he has shared. I know you mentioned that he admires Bradley Manning. I think while he certainly admires -- he's an individual who took a stand and most Americans aren't aware of I think the initial video that Bradley Manning released.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: That showed a U.S. helicopter killing innocent bystanders.

(CROSSTALK)

SNOWDEN: ... of the two Reuters reporters and shooting the two children through the windshield of the vehicle, that's correct.

BRUCE FEIN, ATTORNEY FOR LON SNOWDEN: I think what we can assess with regard to how the members of Congress and the public have responded to the disclosures of the dragnet surveillance of the NSA on every American citizen that, in the case of Mr. Snowden, he's disclosed government wrongdoing in the minds of Americans and members of Congress of the United States who may be on the verge of enacting remedial legislation.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: Although a minority of the member of the House of Representatives. It was almost -- defeated last week, but it did not pass.

FEIN: For a variety of procedural reasons. It may come back in a different form in September and pass.

But we certainly know the majority of the American people now have voiced grave concerns about the scope of that program. And it seems somewhat odd to be prosecuting somebody for disclosing government wrongdoing. You have a First Amendment right to petition government for redress of grievances. The other difference I think with regard to the statement about fair trial, there have been a half dozen or dozen high member -- high-profile people in Congress, including John Kerry, secretary of state, already convicting Mr. Snowden of treason.

They have stated categorically he's guilty. There hasn't even been a trial, not a peep of a presumption of innocence. The president of the United States has derided him as some kind of a hacker. If you're going to have a fair trial, you have to have an unpoisoned jury and that is not the case right now.

TAPPER: Lon, if your son is watching right now, which he may be -- CNN is an international organization -- what's your message to him?

SNOWDEN: My message to him is to stay safe, stay secure and I hope he does in fact find refuge in Russia until we are confident that he can receive a fair trial back on U.S. soil.

At this time, my message to him is that I am not confident at all. I have stated it last night. I have absolutely no faith in the attorney general of the United States, Eric Holder.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: Hold on one second. I'm sorry.

SNOWDEN: We have attempted to work with the Justice Department and the people who are conducting this investigation. And I have -- I have lost faith in their interest in ensuring that he is given a fair trial.

I think the focus is to bring him back in and prosecute him to the fullest. The focus is not justice. It's to prosecute him.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: Is this because of the comments of people like Secretary Kerry and others?

SNOWDEN: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

FEIN: In addition to that, the attorney general had written a letter to the administrative justice of the Russian Federation. He was trying to outline all the protections that Mr. Snowden would enjoy if he returned.

TAPPER: It would not seek the death penalty. He would not be tortured.

FEIN: And he would not be tortured, yes. And it sort of speaks volumes that a Justice Department official has to promise that he won't commit torture, because otherwise there's suspicion that they'd get the Bradley Manning treatment.

But, moreover, if you read the letter, it's deficient in several very critical respects. It doesn't argue that Mr. Snowden would enjoy the right to confront adverse witnesses again him, maybe trying to get information that's secret. It doesn't say that he would enjoy the right to call favorable witnesses in his defense.

It doesn't promise a venue which hasn't been poisoned because it's the venue where NSA employees work or contractors work. If it was attempting to try and provide a comfort level that there would be a fair trial, it was deficient. And, lastly, it didn't even say that he would enjoy a presumption of innocence.

TAPPER: Lon, surely you understand the basic idea that your son broke the law and is going to be punished one way or another in the eyes of the United States justice system. You don't dispute that.

(CROSSTALK)

SNOWDEN: No, I do...

(CROSSTALK)

FEIN: I need to interject here.

TAPPER: OK.

FEIN: You said that he broke the law. That's not at all clear.

TAPPER: You disagree with that.

FEIN: It could be that there was constitutionally protected speech that was there, but that's why we have trials. That's why there's a presumption of innocence.

And if there's a message I think that we need to send to Mr. Edward Snowden, the American people, what he hoped to accomplish had been achieved. He has sparked the conversation that Mr. Obama said was urgent that is now occurring in the Congress of the United States and on this program today. If it wasn't for his courage, there would be no second- guessing of these dragnet surveillance programs.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: I do want to get you're view. As a father, though, you don't accept the proposition that he did anything illegal?

SNOWDEN: At this point, what I would like to see is the justice system applied fairly.

Let's go back 50 years, almost 50 years to the day when Martin Luther King gave his "I Have a Dream" speech and he reminded us that the U.S. Constitution is a promissory note to the American people and he reminded people correctly the American people that the government at that time was defaulting on that promise.

And the reason being is we had laws, Jim Crow laws that were recognized as they're legal, it's legal, but you know what, they were unconstitutional? And so did my son face a moral hazard in which he had to make a choice between doing something that was unconstitutional, spying on the American people, unethical? You know, I believe he's seen much more than what we're aware of.

And did he face the moral hazard of having to continue to do that day in, day out with a big paycheck and knowing that our government was violating the constitutional rights of over 300 million Americans?

TAPPER: Let me just give you a last word here because we're going to have to take a break.

But that is, President Obama presumably watches CNN as well. What would you say to him if he's watching?

SNOWDEN: Stay true to your oath. Support and defend the Constitution of the United States to the best of your ability. That is the top line of your job description. You have said that you can't have 100 percent privacy and 100 percent security without 100 percent -- without some inconvenience.

You know, what I would say as an American citizen is I expect to you respect my constitutional rights 24 hours a day, seven days a week. That's your job as the president of the United States.

TAPPER: All right, Edward Snowden's father, Lon Snowden, thank you for being here.

Bruce Fein, we welcome you to come back again to talk more about these important issues.

SNOWDEN: Thank you.

TAPPER: We appreciate it.

ANDERSON: My colleague Jake Tapper. You've been listening to Edward Snowden's father and his lawyer responding to those who have drawn comparisons to his son and Bradley Manning who at the headlines today with this - not guilty of aiding the enemy. The verdict handed down to Army Private Bradley Manning who spent the last three years in custody. He's accused of the largest leak of classified information in U.S. history. But Tuesday, a military judge ruled he was not guilty of the most serious charge of aiding and abetting the enemy. I'll remind you that means he won't face life in prison. He could still, though, face jailtime after being found guilty of some of the lesser charges against him.

All right, you're watching Connect the World tonight live from Abu Dhabi. I'm Becky Anderson. Still to come, an ambitious attempt to resolve one of the world's longest running conflicts within the next nine months.

Israeli and Palestinian negotiators agree on a framework for peace deals. We're live at the U.S. State Department.

And more details are emerging about a fatal train crash in Spain last week thanks to the data recorders on board. We're going to have a report out of Spain for you upcoming.

And - well, I'm going to take a break. I'll tell you what, I'll take a break. Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANDERSON: And the Abu Dhabi skyline for you at just after midnight, or quarter past midnight or so. You're watching CNN. This is Connect the World with me this week from the UAE. Welcome back.

A top Israeli negotiator says the task ahead is to turn a spark of hope into a real and lasting peace. Tzipi Livni and the Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat stood by the U.S. secretary of state today as John Kerry announced an ambitious timetable for reaching a Middle East peace deal.

Now Kerry said, and I quote, constructive positive meetings in Washington have paved the way for a formal resumption of talks, ending a three year stalemate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KERRY, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: The parties have agreed here today that all of the final status issues, all of the core issues and all other issues are all on the table for negotiation. And they are on the table with one simple goal: a view to ending the conflict, ending the claims.

Our objective will be to achieve a final status agreement over the course of the next nine months.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON: John Kerry at the State Department today.

Let's get you to Jill Dougherty who is covering this story for you. And all parties tripping over each other, Jill, earlier today to thank Obama for his support as he wound up the first leg of these talks. But he's come pretty late to the party.

How do you assess the president's performance on this to date?

JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, up until recently, let's say March of this year, really there was not a lot of activity by the Obama administration, but there was a moment where they really decided that they wanted to make a push. So when President Obama came back from a trip to the region, he tasked Secretary Kerry to really pull out the stops and do what he could and that's why you had Kerry on the road with six trips to the region. And the result is what we had today here at the State Department, which are these talks. They are the preliminary, the kind of let's set the schedule type talks.

And then which we heard today in two weeks, approximately, there will be the next round. And those are really the nitty gritty, the details and the issues that had plagued and kept both sides apart for so long. They'll begin to discuss them within two weeks. And those talks will take place in either Israel or in the Palestinian states.

But again, you know Becky, there is a lot of hope, but there's certainly nobody who is very naive about this, let alone the two negotiators and let's listen to them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAED EREKAT, CHIEF PALESTINIAN NEGOTIATOR: Palestinians have suffered enough. And no one benefits more from the success of this endeavor more than Palestinians. I'm delighted that all final status issues are on the table and will be resolved without any exceptions.

TZIPI LVINI, CHIEF ISRAELI NEGOTIATOR: We all know that it's not going to be easy, it's going to be hard with ups and downs, but I can assure you that these negotiations, in these negotiations it's not our intention to argue about the past, but to create solutions and make decisions for the future.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOUGHERTY: All right, Saeb Erakat for the Palestinians and Tzipi Livni for Israel.

Now, the U.S., we just had a briefing here at the State Department. And officials telling us that the U.S. will really be now a facilitator. These are going to be talks between the two sides. The U.S. is there to help out as much as they can.

Secretary Kerry said that he is the only person, interestingly, who is really delegated and allowed by both sides to do the talking when there will be public talking. And he is indicating there won't be a whole lot of that. They want to keep this as much behind the scenes and as much of a real discussion as they can.

And then finally I think, Becky, one of the more interesting parts of this is the attempt, or the aim by the Obama administration and all sides to improve conditions in the West Bank and also in Gaza. That is an economic outreach. What they are going to be looking for is international investment. And that is a type of carrot to show that some of this talking can actually lead to something. So nine months from now we'll - I guess we'll talk again and see what they can accomplish.

But right now they set to work.

ANDERSON: Yeah, all right, Jill. Thank you for that. Jill Dougherty in Washington for you.

Now to Italy and the highest court there holds the fate of Silvio Berlusconi in its hands. The supreme court could end the political career of the former prime minister.

Justices are considering Mr. Berlusconi's final appeal on what is a tax fraud charge.

Let's get to Rome and Barbie Nadeau joining us live from Rome. We were expecting a decision on this case from the supreme court today. Have we got one?

BARBIE NADEAU, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the court today heard hours and hours of testimony from the prosecution just about why Silvio Berlusconi's tax evasion - tax fraud conviction should be upheld. And with that, though, carries this three year - initially they asked for five year ban from public office. The prosecutor today changed that to three years.

But still, nonetheless, is the judiciary basically meddling in a situation that should be left up to the voters, at least that's what Silvio Berlusconi's supporters say.

You know, this is a polarizing issue here. So many people in Italy still love Silvio Berlusconi. You know, they've forgiven him for whatever sins he's committed and they want him to at least be part of the political spectrum here. And that really is the issue, Becky.

ANDERSON: His supporters, of course, you're suggesting and they will be no more than, what, maybe 30 percent of the population, which is a pretty high figure, we know, for Berlusconi given his demise back in November 2011, but still significant.

Are we looking at the downfall of this man at present? This is only one of four cases, of course, that are pending in appeal at this point.

Should we expect to see him retire from the limelight, as it were, going forward?

NADEAU: I think it's far too soon to discount Silvio Berlusconi. We've seen time and time again when people have sidelined him, he's come back one way or another.

You know, this is a man that will have political power and influence in the media. He owns so much of the media, controls so much of what Italians still watch on TV, how they're influenced by that, but he also still have his political party. Even if he doesn't run for office or is able to hold office as a member of his political party, he still will back that financially. And he'll still have power in that way.

You know, it's way too soon to discount him and to rule him out. He'll be here for a long time to come yet, no matter what this court decides.

ANDERSON: All right, Barbie Nadeau in Rome for you.

All right, well, Spanish court officials say a train driver on the phone at the - let me start that again Spanish court officials say that a train driver was on the phone at the time of last week's deadly crash at Santiago de Compostela, you'll remember that. On using data from black boxes on the train, the court also says the train was traveling at 192 kilometers per hour when it derailed. That is twice the reported speed limit on the track where it crashed.

Karl Penhaul on the phone from Spain for you.

Karl, what we don't know at this point is why the train was going that fast. It seems remarkable that we are, though, getting this information from the courts when this is an ongoing investigation and possibly a criminal case going forward.

KARL PENHAUL, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That does seem quite surprising, Becky. In fact, I just talked to the state railway company Renfe. And the spokeswoman there said, well, you know, that's the court's decision. We're unaware of why the court has decided to release this black box information now rather than holding on to it until the investigation is further on or concluded.

But what we do know from the information has been released today. We know that when the train actually hit that curve and derailed it was traveling at 153 kilometers and hour, that's almost twice the permitted speed on that curve, which should be 80 kilometers an hour.

A few seconds prior to reached the curve, that's where the train had been traveling at 192 kilometers an hour. And in a sense, that is - the train should have been braking at much soon than that. The train should have been breaking, in fact, a minute or a couple of minutes before getting toward that curve.

But then comes this information, the black box also shows us that the train driver was on the telephone.

Now initially we had heard those reports late last week and assumed that the driver maybe just be chatting to somebody carelessly on the phone, but it seems far from it. He did not initiate the call, he received the call on a work phone that had been issued to him by the state railway company. And in fact, he was talking to one of the railway controllers at the time about what to do on the next part of the route.

And that call began several minutes before the train derailed. And he was still on the phone when the train ran off the tracks. So that really does raise the question had he been distracted by this phone call? Was he more concentrated on the phone call than what he was doing on the track? And also, one would have to ask, why was the controller phoning him at that time, because again, according to Renfe, the controllers have real-time information on what position the train is on the track. And so the controller really should have known that the train was approaching a very dangerous curve, Becky.

ANDERSON: Karl Penhaul with the very latest details as we get them on what will be, one assumes, a sort of ongoing and fairly long investigation into exactly what happened when that train hit the curve in Spain killing, or certainly resulting in the death of more than 70 people last week.

Of course, still many injured and in hospital.

All right, live from Abu Dhabi this evening. This is Connect the World.

Still ahead, an update on deposed Egyptian president Mohamed Morsy from an international diplomat who met with him in detention.

Plus, desperate, but not allowed in. Why some Middle Eastern countries are closing the door on Syrian refugees.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANDERSON: I'm giving you a view of the (inaudible) mosque here in the UAE. You're watching Connect the World live from Abu Dhabi. Welcome back. I'm Becky Anderson for you.

Now as the fighting in Syria continues, so, too, does the exodus of people fleeing the conflict. The UN estimates there are currently some 1.8 million refugees seeking shelter in neighboring countries.

Well, the Zaatari refugee camp in Jordan has grown so big that it's effectively become the country's fourth largest city. And activists claim Amman is closing most of its border with Syria.

Well, CNN's Nick Paton Walsh has just returned from Jordan and he filed this report. Have a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Becky, a remarkable change on the Jordanian-Syrian border where months ago 3,000 Syrians would be crossing, fleeing violence in their own country every night. In the last few weeks, that number has dropped dramatically to just about 100, leaving many to presume that Jordan, already reeling from hundreds of thousands of Syrian refugees, has simply shut the border because it can't take any more.

(voice-over): This is no place to walk - Jordan's far eastern border. But some have no choice. It's their only way out of Syria. From war torn Homs, Aleppo, Damacus, into Jordan, a country exhausted by a flood of refugees.

The army wants us to see this welcome, but there's something wrong with this picture.

(on camera): The journey through this desert heat must have been hellish for them. And you can only imagine what they left behind to endure this. But this is the last point on the Jordanian-Syrian border that they are allowed to cross. Diplomats and activists telling us they've shut most of the rest of the border.

(voice-over): This is the other side of the story - the Syrian town of Tal Shahab (ph) just meters from the Jordanian border, that dotted line of trees. No refugees are crossing here. Hundreds stranded, activists told us, not allowed to travel the remaining meters into Jordan.

They sent us this video of the squalor they endure nearby, living under trees among trash, the regime nearby and safety tortuously close, but out of reach.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): We fled Aleppo six weeks ago, our homes destroyed, our young men and children killed, and we have nothing. King Abdullah of Jordan, help us. Open the border and help us. Our children are getting sick.

WALSH: One local Syrian rebel leader tells us the Jordanian army has expressly told rebels not to escort refugees to the border as they will not be allowed to cross.

They told us 15 days ago they were closing the border as Jordan couldn't take any more refugees, he says, and hadn't got international support they were promised. No one can come in now unless they're bleeding heavily. Many who try are captured by the Jordanian army and taken back to Syria. The UN has also noticed a change.

ANDREW HARPER, UNHCR REPRESENTATIVE TO JORDAN: Over the last two weeks, we've seen the numbers drop dramatically. Earlier in the year, it was running at about 2,000 to 3,000 people crossing every night. That dropped down to about 500. Now we're only seeing about 100.

We know that there's tens of thousands of people who would want to come across and they're not coming across. So why is that? We're trying to make sure that the restrictions are certainly not on the Jordanian side.

WALSH: This is one reason why Jordan might want less refugees. One year ago, Zataari was built to hold 5,000 Syrians. Now, it holds 23 times that number, a fraction of the half million in Jordan.

But a top border official denies there's any closer and says violence in Syria can cause numbers of refugees to fluctuate.

GEN. HUSSEIN AL-ZYOUD, COMMANDER, JORDANIAN BORDER SECURITY (through translator): We've not received any order to close the border from any official inside Jordan. If 100 are allowed across, that does not mean the border is closed. There is a reorganization of our work.

WALSH: But something must be wrong if this really is the only way out.

(on camera): Now Becky, there are two stunning impacts of that Jordanian decision, if it is the case. One, there are over two million Syrians inside Syria still displaced because of violence, looking for refuge, who will find that Jordanian border quite hostile to them.

The other impact is on where I'm standing now in Lebanon. Turkey, Iraq and Jordan have restrictions in place for Syrian refugees. This porous border between Syria is what people fleeing violence are going to have to cross.

Lebanon already reeling from 1 million Syrian refugees, it's estimated, in a population that was originally just 4 million. The destabilization here already evident, and it's simply spreading across the region, Becky.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BECKY ANDERSON, HOST: Yes. Nick Paton Walsh on that part of the story for you.

Well, coming up, we'll check the latest world news headlines, as you would imagine, at the bottom of the hour here on CNN. Plus, supporters of Egypt's ousted president hold new rallies despite stern warnings from the military. I'm going to get you a live update from Cairo straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANDERSON: This is CONNECT THE WORLD, the top stories for you this hour. Former US army intelligence analyst Bradley Manning has been found not guilty of aiding the enemy by a US military judge. Manning was accused of giving hundreds of thousands of classified documents to WikiLeaks. He was found guilty on several other lesser charges and could be sentenced to many years in prison.

US secretary of state John Kerry says Israelis and Palestinians will aim to reach a final peace agreement within the next nine months. He says constructive, positive meetings in Washington laid the groundwork for a formal resumption of talks in the region.

Silvio Berlusconi's career as a politician could be coming to a close. The Supreme Court in Rome is considering the former prime minister's final appeal of his tax fraud conviction. If the justices uphold the ruling, the 76-year-old would be barred from holding public office.

And the European Union's foreign policy chief says deposed Egyptian president Mohamed Morsy is doing well. Catherine Ashton met with Morsy at some undisclosed location earlier today, becoming the first outsider granted access to him since the coup several weeks ago.

Cathy Ashton also met with Egypt's interim leaders and Muslim Brotherhood officials during her visit. She says only, and I quote, "an inclusive political process can pull the country out of the crisis." CNN's Reza Sayah sat down with Ashton today in Cairo.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

REZA SAYAH, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You met the former president. First off, what's his condition? How's he doing?

CATHERINE ASHTON, EU FOREIGN POLICY CHIEF: He's well. I had two hours with him. He's with two advisors, and we talked in detail. He has access to some television and newspapers.

SAYAH: Where is he?

ASHTON: I don't know.

SAYAH: You don't know. I'm assuming you met with him to help end this conflict. Did you advise him to accept this interim government.

ASHTON: I don't advise him to do anything. I didn't come to Egypt to advise people who are perfectly capable of working out what they want to do. We came -- I came to have discussions with all of them. My message was the same: you need an inclusive process that can go forward.

SAYAH: What is Mr. Morsy's position? What are his demands? Does he still want to be president?

ASHTON: I promised him at the end of the two hours that I wasn't going to try and represent his views anywhere, because he's not able to contradict me. I wasn't trying to impose my views, nor to pretend that I can do what the Egyptian people and Egyptian leaders can do, which is really to have the dialogue.

SAYAH: Any legitimate negotiations has a give and take. What is this interim government willing to give to the Muslim Brotherhood and Mr. Morsy?

ASHTON: I think the starting point is to talk with everybody about what it is that they see as fundamental to going forward. The encouraging thing from my conversations is that everybody knows they've got find a way through and a way forward.

SAYAH: What is discouraging is these arrests of Muslim Brotherhood leaders, others are wanted, and that seems to indicate that maybe there is not a true intent to be inclusive.

ASHTON: You know, one of the things we've said consistently is that those who are held for political reasons should be released. I've said that consistently, I continue to say that.

SAYAH: There's growing evidence that security forces are firing at unarmed protesters. This is the latest from the Amnesty International report, 80 bodies on Saturday, 51 died from bullet wounds, 60 percent of patients wounded from behind. Do you stand with human rights groups in condemning the use of force?

ASHTON: I have huge respect for what Amnesty is saying, and I've not yet read their report. If that's what is happening, it needs to stop. I'm not seeking to say anything other than anyone who is using violence will find that this is not going to be the way forward.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANDERSON: All right. That's Cathy Ashton, the first outsider to get a chance to speak to the deposed president. Egypt's interim vice president, Mohamed ElBaradei, spoke at a news conference with Ashton today. He says Mohamed Morsy failed and suggested his political days are over, but he says Morsy's group, the Muslim Brotherhood, is welcome to join in the political process.

Well, Morsy's son says all this talk of inclusion is a lie. He spoke earlier by phone with CNN's Hala Gorani.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATION CORRESPONDENT: You don't think, as the government is now promising, that there will be an all-inclusive political process that will include Islamist parties and the Freedom and Justice party going forward? You think they're lying?

OSAMA MORSY, SON OF MOHAMED MORSY (via telephone): There is no legitimate government. We don't recognize them. They are lying. They lie publicly, publicly about everything. And now they are the leaders of a military coup. Morsy is the legitimate leader, the democratic elected president. Everyone in the world knew this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON: Well, Mohamed Morsy's supporters say that they won't be intimidated into abandoning their demonstrations. They are still out on the streets demanding his return to power. Arwa Damon is with Morsy supporters in Cairo joining us now, live.

It was a month ago today that both his supporters and detractors last saw Mohamed Morsy. At that time, Arwa, he was president. He made a very long speech on television, long in rhetoric, short in specifics. And after that, we didn't see him again. These supporters still out on the streets, are they telling you why, specifically?

ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, they have a number of theories as to why that is, in fact, what has taken place. And you were talking about how people are not being intimidated by the rhetoric, by the possible threat that security forces could come in and forcibly clear them out.

And it's pretty evident from the crowd around us, we are at the sit-in that takes place on a regular basis. It is a pretty much permanent camp city. It is the smaller of the two main sit-ins that do take place regularly in Cairo.

People here were talking about Catherine Ashton's comments on how she had met with deposed president Mohamed Morsy. They were talking about how they felt a certain sense of relief when they heard that he was in good health. But they say at the end of the day, their aim is to see him brought back into power. Their aim, they say, is to reverse what has happened in the last month.

And as you can tell, there are women and children here. They mostly come at night. It is the men who really are here for the long haul. But they come out despite the fact that there is a relative risk there, because they do feel strongly that this is their right.

But of course this puts Egypt in a nearly impossible situation because you have this side of this standoff hard and determined to keep up these sit-ins, and on the other side, the military-backed interim government wanting to impose some sort of order and clear the streets of these demonstrators, Becky.

ANDERSON: Yes, I'm fascinated, having been there a month ago and seeing the beginning of these protests, I'm fascinated to know from those that you're surrounded by tonight firstly how long they are willing to stay, because as they stay out on the streets, the sort of political- stroke-military process continues behind closed doors. So, how long they're prepared to stay and what they're prepared to do at this point? What kind of leverage, if any, do they think they still have?

DAMON: Look, Becky, these are fairly simple people and they believe that what they are able to do here is continue to try to somehow pressure this interim government, pressure the military into reversing what has already taken place. And that is something that quite simply is not going to happen.

For them, it's very simple. The man who they say they voted for, the man who they say was democratically elected was forcibly removed from power, and this is all that they say that they are capable of doing, coming out into the streets, sitting here.

And they'll all say that they're here for the long haul. There have been a number of clashes in the vicinity here. You of course had the events that took place over the weekend in another location that left some 75 pro-Morsy supporters dead.

They're aware of the risks, but they'll tell you that they're willing to make the sacrifice. Some of them say that they're willing to sacrifice themselves, they're willing to sacrifice their children. Of course, that's not rhetoric that anyone ever wants to hear anyone to say that they would go that far.

But it gives you an idea of the mentality of the people here and how strong their determination actually is. But of course, this does not bode well when it comes to any sort of real political solution for this current standoff.

And of course the longer it drags on, the more entrenched these people become here, the more entrenched they become in their position, and the more difficult it is going to be for the road ahead, which at this point seems to be incredibly difficult, because you have these people who say that they're not leaving until the president, President Morsy, is brought back into power, and that's, of course, a non-starter for the military- backed interim government.

ANDERSON: Yes, fascinating stuff. All right, Arwa's there for you on the streets of Cairo at one of the pro-Morsy rallies. Cathy Ashton, of course, the first to meet Mohamed Morsy today, first outsider, at least. She's the EU's top diplomat.

She was criticized by some, it has to be said, for not taking family members, his family members. She went representing the EU looking to try and mediate this process, but some said, well, why wouldn't you take his son, other people from his family who haven't seen him for a month? Interesting. And we'll continue to cover this story for you as it develops.

Live from Abu Dhabi, you're watching CONNECT THE WORLD. I'm Becky Anderson for you. Coming up, business tips from one of the world's richest real estate moguls. That after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANDERSON: At a quarter to 1:00 in Abu Dhabi, the Sheikh Zayed Mosque behind me here. It's a sultry evening here. This is CONNECT THE WORLD out of the UAE.

If you have ever dreamed of becoming a billionaire, you might want to take some zip -- some zips? Even some tips from Zhang Xin. You may never have heard of her, but believe me, the Chinese real estate magnate is richer than some well-known moguls, including Donald Trump, Steven Spielberg, and Oprah Winfrey.

And she has been generating an awful lot of buzz online since we first aired her story on what is our Leading Women series. If you missed that, we wanted to give you another chance to hear her rags to riches tale. The Soho China CEO sat down with Pauline Chiou.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAULINE CHIOU, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Travel to Beijing or Shanghai these days and Zhang Xin's work is all around you.

ZHANG XIN, CEO, SOHO CHINA: This one is the tallest building we've ever built. Nobody really came up with three manmade mountains, right? So that's where we started. We said, ah, this is amazing.

CHIOU: Her ambition and creative vision is the force behind Soho China, one of the country's most prominent property developers, known for its large architecturally daring projects, 16 in Beijing, 12 in Shanghai, and one in Hainan.

Zhang founded Soho with her husband, Pan Shiyi, in 1995, a far cry from her first job on a factory floor.

ZHANG: I think everybody comes from nowhere. That's the thing about China, right? Everybody comes from -- nobody comes with money. My -- our generation. We were lucky to be alive.

CHIOU (on camera): What is it about China and the women of your generation that allows them to achieve that highest level?

ZHANG: I think women of our generation went through cultural revolution, went through hardship, went through coming from nowhere. And suddenly see China's been given so amazing opportunities.

So, women just seized the opportunity, or people just seized the opportunity, and in this regard, I think women in China are getting more opportunities than outside. And that's why you see more self-made billionaires, woman billionaires, than elsewhere, I think, in the world.

CHIOU (voice-over): Zhang brought to the table experience in banking and a love of design. Her husband had ambition and business savvy. Together, they built Soho China into a company worth more than $3 billion. To rise to the top, Zhang says women must be fearless and go for their dreams, even if it means resisting social norms.

ZHANG: Hardly any men, no matter how well-to-do, you wouldn't think that, oh, I'll stay at home. But a lot of women, despite being very smart, very well-educated, still at some point decide, oh, it's more comfortable to stay at home. Those are the real barriers stopping women to go far.

CHOIU (on camera): When you go into a room for negotiations, I imagine you're walking into a room of mostly men and probably men who are mostly older than you. As a woman, as the CEO of Soho, how do you approach that situation when you walk in the door?

ZHANG: I don't think about -- those are the moments that I don't think about myself as a woman. I'm just coming in to do a deal, I need to get it done.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANDERSON: Our Leading Women series for you. Coming up after this short break on CONNECT THE WORLD, the football world mourns one of Ecuador's brightest stars. More on the tragic loss of Christian Benitez. That after this.

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ANDERSON: I want to turn now to what is a tragic story in the sporting world that took place here in the Middle East in Qatar. Leone Lakhani with me now in the -- or outside here with the outside studio this evening in Abu Dhabi with more on this. The loss of Ecuadorian football striker Christian Benitez, what happened?

LEONE LAKHANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: There's so much speculation and there's just no clarity right now about what the circumstances were around his death. Now, initially, there were lots of questions about the playing conditions. He played his first match on Sunday in conditions similar to this, nearly 50 degrees heat at this time of year. Now, they played at night, but the conditions are still stifling.

Now what conspired was that he was actually taken to hospital with severe stomach cramps, and then he subsequently died of a cardiac arrest. But then, there have been reports since then in the press, quotes from his wife and the father-in-law saying that he wasn't treated quickly enough in the hospital.

We haven't been able to substantiate those claims independently, but we are, of course, chasing official comment. But there's been no official comment on the exact cause of death yet.

ANDERSON: Anything from his club, from the Qatari Football Association? What have we heard?

LAKHANI: Well, right after his death, the club had issued a statement just mourning his loss. But they also said in the statement that Benitez had played his first match and he seemed perfectly healthy during the match. So, that was the last comment we got from them, which was right after his death.

We're awaiting the official autopsy report, which should be coming in the next day or so, but we don't have a clear timeline on that, either, at the moment.

ANDERSON: OK, Leone, thank you very much, indeed, for that. Of course, Qatar looking to host the World Cup in 2022. A tragic story and one that will be -- will upset an enormous amount of people, not just in this region, but around the world. A great football player.

And to another big story rocking the football world. German prosecutors have charged Bayern Munich's president, Uli Hoeness, with tax evasion. My "World Sport" colleague Amanda Davies joining me now from CNN Center. And Amanda, what do these latest developments mean? Didn't he turn himself in over an undeclared Swiss bank account? That's what I understood this to be.

AMANDA DAVIES, CNN SPORTS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, you're right, Becky. This is the latest chapter in what's been a very long-running investigation since that moment in April when Hoeness decided to disclose what had previously been an undisclosed Swiss bank account.

He took the step himself because he thought that the wolves were at the door and that this might help him in terms of leniency in terms of the investigation. And yes, he has now been charged with tax evasion for failing to declare and pay interest on this bank account.

It's a bank account in a Zurich private bank called Vontobel. And his lawyers now have a month to answer the charges. The prosecutors themselves are deciding whether or not the case will go to trial. We understand that there'll be no decision on that until the end of September at the earliest because of the huge raft of information around this case.

ANDERSON: Yes.

DAVIES: Also very interesting, now, to see what Bayern Munich do, because he is widely regarded as perhaps the most important, powerful man in German football. He is the club president. Back in April, the board unanimously decided to back him. He said he could step down and suspend his responsibilities, but they said, no, they wanted him to continue.

But with this latest development, he could face a prison charge, and then, that leads to a very different ballgame, of course.

ANDERSON: Not just a big man in football, but a big club in world club football these days. Bayern Munich and Borussia Dortmund, of course, those two German clubs which every other team, it seems, are chasing going into this new season. Amanda, thank you for that. Amanda Davies on the Bayern Munich Uli Hoeness story for you.

Now, you may remember the excitement last year when the remains of England's King Richard III were found under a car park. You may think this is a random story, but there has been another surprising find, so we want to bring it to you, at the same site. Dan Rivers tells us about the mystery coffin in a town called Leicester.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What we're about to tell you is truly astonishing.

DAN RIVERS, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This was the moment the world learned that this skeleton found in a parking lot in the English city of Leicester was King Richard III, the last English monarch to die on the field of battle in 1485.

LAURENCE OLIVIER AS KING RICHARD III, "RICHARD III": Now is the winter of our discontent.

RIVERS: Immortalized by Shakespeare, popularized by Sir Laurence Olivier. Now a sword-throw away from Richard's final resting place, another burial. This time, a stone coffin. Inside, a lead casket. The whole thing shrouded in mystery.

RICHARD BUCKLEY, PROJECT MANAGER, UNIVERSITY OF LEICESTER: This coffin is actually right in front of the high altar, and so it's probably a very high states burial. There are three potential candidates. Two of them are called provincials, or heads of the great friars of England. One of them is Peter Swinesfield and the other one is William of Nottingham.

The other possibility is it's somebody called William de Moton of Eccleton, which is a village in Leicester.

RIVERS: None are names that trip off the tongue like Richard III, although if this burial contains organic material, it might be a treasure trove of scientific information about the medieval world.

But it's Richard III's discovery that's really captured the world's imagination. His bones are still being carefully tested for clues about his life.

BUCKLEY: At the moment, Richard is still at an undisclosed location at the university as we finish all of the scientific analysis associated with the discovery. And then the plan next year, in May of next year, we hope, the remains will be handed over to Leicester Cathedral for reburial there.

RIVERS: His reconstructed face a window onto the past from the grave that continues to yield incredible discoveries after hundreds of years forgotten under an English city.

Dan Rivers, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANDERSON: All right. That's it from us tonight. But in tonight's Parting Shots, we're going to leave you with some images from this region where, despite upheaval, regular life does go on, and it'll be no surprise to you that people like you and me are just going about their daily business, many of them celebrating Ramadan, of course, which is ongoing for another ten days, breaking their fasts in the evening and looking towards Eid at the end of this fasting period.

I'm Becky Anderson, that was CONNECT THE WORLD from Abu Dhabi. From the team here, in London, and in the States, it's a very good evening. CNN, though, continues. Don't go away.

END