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Baby-Faced Teen A Killer?; Guns, Money and Murder
Aired July 30, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, like father, like son. Could this baby-faced killer whose dad is a confessed murderer be himself a cold-blooded killer? Joshua Young is on trial in the beating death of his stepbrother.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, his mother aborted my kid. And I tried to let it go, and I couldn`t.
PINSKY: Did dad take him to the dark side?
My behavior bureau will weigh in on this twisted family tree.
Plus, nightmare in suburbia. A husband is charged with killing his orthodontist wife. How could he? Why would he?
Let`s get started.
PINSKY: Good evening.
My co-host is Samantha Schacher, host of "Pop Trigger" on the Young Turks Network.
The man George Zimmerman saved his life is here and speaking for the first time since his trial. But first, a 14-year-old boy is beaten to death and left in a ditch. His stepfather confessed to the murder. Prosecution says the dead boy stepbrother also had a big hand in the crime. That child who is 15, Samantha, at the time of the death, of the killing, is now facing trial in adult court.
Take a look.
UNIDDENTIFIED MALE: It`s one murder. It`s not like it was a whole bunch of murders. I never thought it would be -- people would be this persistent.
I just snapped. And I hit him, he went down. I stepped on his hand, pulled the bar. He had the bar in his hand. I hit him. Before I knew it, it was over.
It was just too late. I done hit him. I don`t know. I couldn`t stop.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That someone that killed my son, that`s Josh Gouker (ph). He admitted to that. He also killed our pets. My innocent son and our innocent pets.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His mother aborted my kid. I tried to let it go and I couldn`t.
Amanda killed my kid, you know? That`s just (EXPLETIVE DELETED) crazy. We`re even.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He came forward and decided to stand up and take responsibility for what he did. And he was -- and because of that --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- trying to go for probation in 20 years, which he ain`t never going to get because I`m going to be there every day.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s one of the worst things I ever did. It was probably the worst thing I`ve ever did. It is the worst thing I ever did.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Josh robbed Trey`s sisters of their big brother, their playmate, their best friend.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I was part of his life for almost all of his life.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With every breath that I take, I miss my son. Every night I go to sleep, I see him in my dreams.
PINSKY: HLN legal correspondent Jean Casarez has been covering the case. She joins me now.
Jean, give us a quick recap of the case and where things stand right now.
JEAN CASAREZ, HLN LEGAL CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Here`s what we know. The victim was 14 years old, Trey Zwicker. And the cause of death was blunt force trauma, taking a bat or steel pipe repeatedly hitting him until he died. Well, originally the father, big Josh said that younger Josh, 15 years old at the time who was the brother of Trey was the one that killed him. Then he turned around and said I acted alone and he`s pleaded guilty. He`s been sentenced.
But prosecutors are not satisfied that he was the killer alone. They believe that young Joshua Young participated in some form or passion, and he now stands trial with opening statements tomorrow morning.
PINSKY: On the panel: Jenny Hutt, attorney and Sirius XM radio host, Crystal Wright from conservativeblackchick.com, Mark Eiglarsh from speaktomark.com, and, Laura Lake, attorney and judge of the new show, Paternity Court.
Mark, he was 15 at the time of the murder. He is now 17, but he has been charged with complicity to murder as an adult. Your thoughts?
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Well, first of all, there is a presumption of innocence as you know. But there is a greater presumption here that maybe he didn`t do it. I`m going to tell you why.
First, he`s got the baby face. That doesn`t mean he`s not incapable of murdering. Then the father`s got the other face. He`s got an abhorrent-looking face and a personality to match.
So unless they have significant evidence other than the father`s own words, whatever his version is going to be when he finally does testify, I think that they`re going to have a tough time proving this case.
JENNY HUTT, RADIO HOST: Telltale thing might be that the dad said, it wasn`t like it was a whole bunch of murders. It was just one.
Really? Like there`s a distinction, Dr. Drew. Wow.
PINSKY: He`s a full-on psychopath. But psychopathy, full-on psychopathy does have a certain amount of heritability. You wonder if this son has gotten that, in spite of Mark`s baby face, not Mark specifically, but Mark alleges that this kid has got baby face.
Lauren, what are your thoughts?
LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY: Well, you know, as a young defense attorney in Detroit when I first started out, we saw a lot of cases, Dr. Drew, where young men, teenagers, were being tried as adults. And I took issue with it.
I really feel like this is a time when a young man, a young person is still developing, mentally, emotionally. I`m interested to know how much of an influence was his father in his life? I mean, look at this character. And even if he was there, how much of a power did he have to stop it?
PINSKY: That`s an interesting point. And I`m glad I waited for Crystal for after Lauren. Now, it`s getting a little political here.
We do know this kid was taking a video of the father beating a puppy to death laughing while the father did that. Crystal, go ahead. Sam`s upset.
CRYSTAL WRIGHT, CONSERVATIVEBLACKCHICK.COM: Well, I absolutely agree with Lauren on this one. He was 15 years old when this occurred. And I think he was subjected to a demented lifestyle with his sick father.
We know the father was a convicted felon. He tortured cats and dogs. I`m a huge animal lover. I`m a life lover. I`m a baby and human lover.
And I think this boy witnessed a lot of sick stuff. So, you know, I don`t necessarily know if he -- I don`t think he killed his stepbrother, but I think the father said, hey, come on, and forced the kid to maybe even beat his stepson. I think that`s the tragedy in all this.
PINSKY: Mark, look at what you`ve done here. I always made case somebody that could be psychotic and insane and could behave in ways they wouldn`t otherwise behave. Now we`ve got a case here that you started that we have a young person being caused to behave in ways that are outlandish because of the crazy father`s influence, I don`t mean crazy, the evil father.
WRIGHT: Evil, absolutely evil.
EIGLARSH: Yes, let me add something. First of all, I agree with Crystal. I love humans as well. So we share that.
PINSKY: Good. Thank God.
EIGLARSH: Let`s all come together on that.
What I also want to add is if he did participate, he needs to be held responsible and all these things, his horrible father and upbringing can be used to mitigate his sentence. But in terms of trying him as an adult, as was mentioned by both Lauren and Crystal, his brain -- every teenager`s brain, although they know right from wrong, the brain is not fully developed. And the portion with reason and judgment has not been fully formed.
EIGLARSH: As a result, they do not behave the same way adults do.
PINSKY: Yes. However --
EIGLARSH: So, they might participate in something. Yes.
PINSKY: The prefrontal cortical -- there`s pruning of the prefrontal cortex during adolescence, but teenagers don`t go around and torture animals unless they have a second problem which tends to be a genetic nature.
I got to ask one other thing. Jean, there`s conflicting reports about the relationship between the two boys, I believe you just interviewed the grandmother on "NANCY GRACE". What did you realize between the relationship between the stepchild, stepson that was -- stepbrother that was killed and Joshua?
CASAREZ: We`ve learned a big inconsistency, Dr. Drew, because inside the transcripts of the interview that Joshua Young had with the police early on, he talked about a very close relationship. That he`d known him his whole life, that they would play together, that they would actually had a turtle that they played together with.
But what we learned from the family of Trey just minutes ago was that that`s not true. That it`s a lie, that they were not close, that they did not spend a lot of time together, that they hardly even knew each other.
PINSKY: Yes. I saw your interview, Jean. I thought it was excellent. She was very credible and said clearly these kids did not grow up around each other.
Joshua`s in foster care. Trey was somewhere else. He may have had feelings about his brother, stepbrother, but they were not around one another.
Sam, is that you?
WRIGHT: I was just going to say real quick, remember. Joshua young`s mother, didn`t she die of drug overdose?
PINSKY: Yes, she did.
WRIGHT: So we`re not even talking about the lack of -- I know I get beat up on Twitter for this all of time. I talk about the importance of parenting and parents taking responsibility for bringing lives into this world. You can have a baby, but it doesn`t mean you should always.
PINSKY: But, Crystal, there`s a crazy twist on this. Joshua young was in and out of foster families and apparently was doing well there until the dad stepped in and took him back.
WRIGHT: Wouldn`t you do well in somebody else`s -- I mean, yes.
PINSKY: Well, away from that maniac, yes. Anybody would do better away from that.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, CO-HOST: Why did the judge even grant custody? Mark, maybe you can answer this -- of Josh Young considering what (INAUDIBLE), considering he just was released from prison. I don`t understand it.
EIGLARSH: Well, I don`t think he had the benefit of his quotations that we have now. Apparently, the judge didn`t know that he is as sick as he is and there`s a presumption of reunification, bringing biological parents back with their kids -- obviously, huge mistake.
PINSKY: Lauren, do you agree with Mark?
LAKE: I do. I would also like to add how much for this young defendant, was there an issue of a mental defect in his life that was not, you know, attended to, was not looked into, because he was neglected. If he was involved in some respect, were there signs where he could have received help but for his terrible parenting, he ended up in a position where he was not able to escape the influence of his father.
I think there is so much here -- and you look at this young boy, I don`t know if he can tell his story well enough to make us understand what he`s been through.
PINSKY: Jenny, go ahead.
HUTT: Yes, I was going to say this is a kid who`s stunted at 14 or 13 or 12 years old. I talked to my son about this today. My son is 14 1/2. I said, honey, if dad was going to kill someone, how would you handle it? Would you go to the authorities?
I had this conversation --
EIGLARSH: These are the conversations you have, Jen? Really?
HUTT: It was because of this case, Mark Eiglarsh. I was testing the concept of this being a damaged 15-year-old, clearly. And my son said --
WRIGHT: I don`t know if you want to put ideas in his head.
HUTT: -- I go to you and then if I could -- I said, what if I was did? It was fun for my son. He said, I`d go with my aunt or grandmother.
EIGLARSH: We go with goldilocks in our home.
HUTT: Then he said I go to the police.
HUTT: Listen. My point is that most 14-year-olds know right from wrong and what they would do in a crazy set of circumstances.
WRIGHT: Come on.
HUTT: This is such a sad story.
WRIGHT: I don`t think you can say --
SCHACHER: No, I understand what Jenny is saying. A kid wants to please their father, especially this kid. No one loved this kid.
WRIGHT: Right, but kids don`t know --
SCHACHER: Let`s just say that the kid, I`m just curious, maybe Mark can answer this. Let`s see if the kid did beat his stepbrother. What would have happened if the dad manipulated him, scared him, influenced him. It wasn`t hit fault?
PINSKY: Hold that. Mark, you will answer it after the break.
More with this panel on this bizarre family murder.
And later, a man who trained George Zimmerman to fight joins me for the first interview since the verdict. Hear what Zimmerman told him right after he killed Trayvon Martin.
We`re back in a moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Prosecutors believe that Gouker told his son to kill Zwicker.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Josh loves me. And I let him down, man. I let a lot of people down. But it`s something in me. I`m just a (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host Samantha Schacher and our panel. A reminder that HLN is covering this trial. It`s a fascinating trial. You can check it throughout the day. HLN will be there. We`re, of course, talking about the case of a 17-year-old Joshua Young on trial for his part of the murder of his stepbrother.
Joshua Young`s father had confessed to the murder, was sentenced to life in prison, and listen to what the judge told him at the time of the sentencing. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE: It is my hope that you never leave the prison system in this state. And it just amazes me that you sit there with a smirk on your face and you smile through this whole process knowing the pain that you`ve caused all these people. I hope I never set eyes on you again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Sam, before the break, you asked Mark a question. Let`s abbreviate the version of that again and Mark you answer.
SCHACHER: Mark, let`s say that he did actually kill his stepbrother, but how responsible is he if the dad did indeed influence him, manipulate him, scare him?
EIGLARSH: Extraordinary question from an intelligent, beautiful young lady as yourself.
SCHACHER: Thank you.
PINSKY: No answers there.
EIGLARSH: No, no, it`s an excellent question. It`s called duress. It`s probably a wonderful defense to use assuming there is evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that proves he did play a role in this. The argument is his father induced him to do something by threats of violence that caused him to do to his brother that otherwise he wouldn`t normally do. It`s called duress. It`s probably the best defense that they have.
PINSKY: Speaking of duress, Mark. I don`t know if you`re about. I`m color blind but I can see fuchsia and chartreuse. Both tie colors you hit in two days. Thank you for the fuchsia, you`ve completed the cycle now.
Lauren, I wonder if you agree with Mark.
EIGLARSH: It`s my pleasure.
LAKE: I do. I feel like in this case, we have to look at this young person and say to ourselves, how did he get here? If I was a defense attorney and I`m representing this kid, I want people to understand that this story doesn`t unfold just in this moment.
This kid has a story long before this happens. And how he got -- look at the father he got out of the deal. And he`s trying to get love out of this father trying to feel attached to something, his biological father. This is a troubling, tragic situation on so many levels besides this death.
And in essence going after this young man could potentially be taking another young person`s life.
PINSKY: But I tell you what. Jenny, I`m going to let you go in a second, and then, Crystal, right after Jenny, but I am shocked at how much less empathy I have for this kid than my panel does. Usually I`m the one advocating --
LAKE: I`m shocked to.
PINSKY: This guy beat the kid over the head --
PINSKY: Potentially. Jenny, go.
HUTT: He`s not being charged. He`s being charged for complicity. Not for the actual murder. That`s A.
B, what chance has this kid had? This kid needs rehabilitation. This kid, whose mother OD`d. He found his mother dead. There were drugs in his system when he was 11 years old. He was living with a foster home he was doing well with.
PINSKY: All right.
HUTT: Then ends up with his father came and --
HUTT: What hope did this kid have?
PINSKY: The issue of personal responsibility and --
WRIGHT: Free will.
WRIGHT: No, no, no.
PINSKY: Crystal, don`t you agree with that?
WRIGHT: I think this kid was like a caged abused animal. I agree with Jenny, I agree with Mark, and I agree with Lauren.
HUTT: Look at that love.
WRIGHT: Back to Mark`s point, it was mind torture. He became the prisoner. He became the victim. He became the accomplice.
It reminds me of the sniper case. You guys all remember that. When the sniper was -- and the young boy, what was it? His stepson. They were terrorizing D.C., Maryland, and Virginia. They`re shooting people at will.
That boy, he was a teenager, I believe. I think he was tried as an adult.
PINSKY: All right.
WRIGHT: He didn`t know. There was no right in his life. This kid Joshua Young was never taught right. He was taught wrong.
LAKE: Dr. Drew, even if he did do it, let`s say that. What you`re saying is, what about this mental defect you potentially have that would cause a kid to murder in this way? Are we making children responsible for their own mental care and emotional upbringing?
I think that`s a lot of responsibility for a young person.
WRIGHT: I agree.
LAKE: If he has some type of issues, it went unchecked. It went un - - no one took him to get help. He went through the system. He got reconnected to his biological father. How much can we blame a kid for a potential mental defect that he was unable to manage on his own?
EIGLARSH: Now, everybody`s getting a little soft. Everyone`s getting a little -- everyone`s getting a little bit too soft now for me.
LAKE: I`m not soft.
WRIGHT: No, we`re not getting soft.
LAKE: I`m not soft.
HUTT: I`m looking at your tie, Mark.
EIGLARSH: If he really did play a role like they`re alleging -- please, look here. If he really did play a role like the prosecutor is alleging, he does need to be held accountable and he is a danger to the community however he got to this point.
The fact they`re trying him as an adult and not a juvenile, that causes me concern.
WRIGHT: -- not as an adult.
PINSKY: Lauren, go ahead.
LAKE: I was just saying, Mark, what if that mental defect did prevent him from knowing right from wrong, from being able to truly, you know, conform his actions. What do you think about that? Do you think in that case, is it relative to think about his mental state and where he was at?
EIGLARSH: I think it`s relevant. But, Lauren, as I`ve commented before on this show, it`s a difficult argument to sell. Because what you`re telling the jurors is I did it. I did this horrific act, but don`t hold me responsible because I`ve got something in my head I didn`t know right from wrong.
PINSKY: Hold on. Not only that, but here`s how if I were a witness in this case I would get up and say -- you`re right. This is a horrible tragedy. This kid just didn`t deserve this. His outcome is a result of his environment.
But guess what? Most of these kids that end up horrific do not torture animals. That suggests he crossed into a different category. And that category is not treatable. That`s all I`m saying.
Next, thank you, guys. The behavior bureau is going to join me. Let`s see if they agree with what I`m saying.
And later, a husband charged with killing his successful wife in their country club home. What could the motive have been?
We`re back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The crime that was committed is unexplainable to those that weren`t in the situation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Time now for the behavior bureau. I am back with my co-host Samantha Schacher. Jenny Hutt still here. Joining us, psychotherapist Eris Huemer, and psychologist Judy Ho and psychotherapist Robi Ludwig, author of "Tell Death Do Us Part."
We`ve been discussing the case of 17-year-old Joshua Young on trial for his part in the murder of his stepbrother -- brutal murder. Joshua`s father is already serving a life sentence for this murder. First, the dad claims the son did it, because he wanted to the kid to be tried as a juvenile. The system would go light on him, the dad would get off.
Now, this relationship with the father and son, I don`t know how much of the past conversation you guys were privy to, you heard, but there was a theory developing amongst the attorneys that there was an excessive sway -- what do you call it? Duress caused by the father`s ability to manipulate this kid.
I`ll start with you, Eris. Do you think that`s part of the story here?
ERIS HUEMER, DOCTORERIS.COM: I absolutely do think that`s part of the story. It`s also a case of the apple doesn`t fall too far from the tree. And a case of monkey see, monkey do.
This kid has been vying for his father`s attention for his entire life. His father has repeated crimes and has been in jail and this child has so much trauma in his past that how can this child not act out? He -- a lot of this is hereditary versus learned behavior. That is a big concern.
PINSKY: I agree. I think it`s both.
But, Judy, does that mean he`s not accountable for these behaviors?
JUDY HO, CLINICAL PYSCHOLOGIST: Well, Dr. in the last segment you were talking about that there`s something genetic behind all this. And I`ve really I agree with that. This is a kid who was on the way to developing antisocial personality disorder.
That is not something that is really treatable. These people are just deprived of any kind of human emotion. They don`t feel bad for anything that they do.
And I believe that even though he is still a teenager, he should really be considered from that angle, like he should take responsibility.
PINSKY: Jenny, you`re shaking your head no.
HUTT: I think we`re going to have to see how this unfolds. I think it`s dangerous, Dr. Drew, when you look at a kid and say he came from a father who was a horrible murderer, therefore this kid has to end the same way. I agree with you, the torturing of animals is problematic.
PINSKY: Yes. Listen, it puts him in a category that`s different from mental illness. It puts him way past sociopathy into psychopathy. But go ahead, Jenny.
HUTT: But, Dr. Drew, I just feel like -- you still got to try with the younger people to rehabilitate. He has to be accountable, but the method is try to rehabilitate. Just try.
PINSKY: All right. Hold your thought.
Robi, what do you say to that?
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: I do agree with Jenny that we have to look at somebody who is a young teen and not see him as an adult.
But I could totally imagine a situation where this young kid Josh says, gosh, I don`t want my father to leave me. My mother died. He`s the only father I have. Part of being a man, I have to please him.
And if being a man to him means being violent and abusive and murderous, then I need to prove that I am worthy enough to be his son so he can be proud of me and love me.
PINSKY: OK. But hang on.
LUDWIG: There`s also many studies that show -- yes.
PINSKY: Show what?
LUDWIG: There are also many studies that show that if you have a father who`s been incarcerated, many of those children internalize a sense about themselves that they are bad themselves.
HUEMER: And then they also end up in prison themselves because so many people have a difficult time believing -- they can -- and many people have a difficult time believing that children suffer from mental health issues. And so many children also do suffer from schizophrenia and depression and antisocial behavior disorder.
And if this goes untreated, then there are definitely going to be serious issues here. And so, this child has been completely neglected, hasn`t had proper attachment his entire life. So, we have to treat the core issue of what`s going on here and not just shame this child.
PINSKY: I don`t disagree with you guys in other circumstances. Judy, you`re shaking your head. Why do you and I feel this is not a treatable situation?
HO: The cruel and unusual punishment aspect puts him in a different category like you said. And I know that he`s a teen and I understand that. But at the same time, you know, just the track history of this individual. The fact he grew up in this chaos and this violent home, the fact there`s all of these genetic underpinnings -- I just don`t know if this is something that can be treatable from the treatment, mental health treatment perspective.
PINSKY: I agree. I agree with you. We don`t know. But, Jenny, hold on. I want to play, jenny, some of this Joshua Young statement to the police then I`ll get to you. Listen to these tapes. He`s talking about smoking weed with his dad. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It started off in my first home visit on Christmas Eve. And every time, I visited, we smoked. And then when I moved in, it was every day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, Jenny, what do you want to say? So, he`s living with his father and stepmother. Two months before the murder, he`s with the father, stepmother, and the stepbrother. And before that, he`d been in a foster family not smoking pot, doing better, then he goes into this environment where things go bad.
JENNY HUTT, SIRIUS XM RADIO HOST: Yes. In the Hutt household, when we`re crazy, we eat cookies, Dr. Drew. That`s what we do.
PINSKY: Well, you also talk about 14-year-olds committing murder --
HUTT: However, listen, what I think is -- again, until we really know what his level of involvement was in this murder, until we really, really know, we can`t throw him away, we can`t lock the door. He`s still a child. I really believe that. Even if he`s super damaged. Dr. Drew, what should we do with these damaged children? Take them, lock them up, and never hear from them again? How does that help society as a whole?
PINSKY: Sam, what do you say?
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, here`s the thing that I`m concerned about. Because before today, I heard that he loved his stepbrother. He played with his stepbrother.
PINSKY: It`s not true.
SCHACHER: Exactly. I had sympathy for him, an empathy for his situation. Now, I hear that he did not get along with his stepbrother. He didn`t hang out with his stepbrother.
PINSKY: He didn`t know him.
SCHACHER: No. And then he laughed during the taping of the beating of the dog. What type of person (ph) does that?
PINSKY: Well, a psychopath does that. Robi, go ahead.
ROBI LUDWIG, PSY.D., AUTHOR, "TIL DEATH DO US PART": Dr. Drew, I do - - I agree with you on one level. Listen, this kid may be damaged for all the right reasons. He had bad genetic.
LUDWIG: He had bad parenting.
LUDWIG: At the end of the day, though, if he is a danger to other people, he needs to be put in a place where he doesn`t endanger anybody else and hopefully can get rehabilitated if he is found guilty. So, I don`t think he should just go out into, you know, society just because he had a bad parent and we give him a pass. We have to protect other people. And if he is a danger, he should pay for his crime and get treated under the circumstances.
PINSKY: All right. Thank you, panel.
Next up, why would a husband murder his successful wife? We will discuss. Again, was mental illness a factor in that case?
And later, the mixed martial arts trainer who taught George Zimmerman how to fight joins me exclusively for his first interview since the not guilty verdict. We are back in a moment.
PINSKY (voice-over): Tonight, 42-year-old Randy Maidens stands accused of pumping ten bullets into his wife, Rachel.
LONI COOMBS, ATTORNEY: He used two different types of guns, a handgun and a shotgun.
PINSKY: He allegedly kills his wife and leaves the body with his two- year-old daughter.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Two kinds of people do that. Evil and sick.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s wearing all black including a ski mask and a backpack that was cylinder shaped. I said, "what are you doing?" And he said, "I live right there." And he points at the house where the murder later occurred.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There were a total of eight handgun rounds, spent rounds that were inside the body.
WENDY WALSH, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGIST: What I`m hearing, the pumped up muscles and he`s 42 years old and then a DUI. Now, that`s an interesting mix.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Also two shotgun rounds that were fired into the body as well.
MARK EIGLARSH, SPEAKTOMARK.COM: Whenever I have a client hypothetically who`s yelling I want to kill my wife, those are not good facts. We can have a debate all day long. Those are bad facts.
PINSKY (on-camera): Welcome back. My co-host, Samantha Schacher. Randolph Maidens is charged with murder in the death of his orthodontist wife, Rachel. She was shot ten times. The couple`s two-year-old child was found alone in their home near Nashville. Maidens, himself, out on bail while awaiting trial. He says he is not guilty.
Back with us Lauren Lake, Jenny Hutt, Crystal Wright, and Mark Eiglarsh. And we had an appearance by Mark (INAUDIBLE) a few seconds ago as well. Lauren, I have question for you. What could the motive have been?
LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY: You know, that is tough. I don`t know if it`s financial. I don`t know if it`s just marital issues. You know, Dr. Drew, what fascinates me so much about this case is it exemplifies what I see so much in our culture. We`ve become so violent. I call it the microwave culture where if you don`t press the button and says popcorn, and if the popcorn ain`t right, you`re mad.
Everything`s wrong. It`s like, you know, I`m mad one day in the marriage. I feel trapped. You know what my only way out? I`ll kill her. Hello. What about divorce? What about legal separation? What about just getting a hotel for the night, home boy? I mean, I`m not saying that he did this. I just feel like our culture has become so --
EIGLARSH: Sounds like it.
LAKE: We are constantly resorting to violence and aggression to solve our problems.
PINSKY: But you`re right. Lauren, that is something that people are fascinated by with this case. They think, well, if you really wanted to get rid of your wife, why not just divorce her. Let`s just go across the panel. Jenny, what are your thoughts?
HUTT: Yes. There`s just other options. Even if divorce isn`t where you want to go, somewhere between divorce and killing her is where maybe you could be. It`s like -- I don`t get it. I don`t get it, Dr. Drew. And this is the kind of circumstance if we find out he did, in fact, do it and he is guilty, take the book and throw it at him. Then, I`m comfortable.
PINSKY: Crystal, I think the follow up would be is there people -- and I`ll ask everybody this. Are there warning signs or do you know of -- things people should look out for? Jenny, go ahead.
HUTT: When he wears all that garb and is sulking around the neighborhood --
PINSKY: Crystal, go ahead.
CRYSTAL WRIGHT, CONSERVATIVEBLACKCHICK.COM: Yes, but I think -- I`m going to go further than everybody else. I think what`s happened here is men are getting the signal that the way they resolve bad relationship is by killing their girlfriends or their spouses. I mean, this started -- you know, this reminds me of shades of O.J. If I can`t have her, you`re not going to have her.
This is what men are doing now. How many times do -- you know, my mom and I talk about this all the time. We feel like every year, it gets worse and worse. And we have these men -- and I will say it`s more White males that are doing this. They are.
HUTT: Oh, Crystal, come on.
WRIGHT: Let me finish.
PINSKY: Hold on.
WRIGHT: They`re these crimes of passion -- wait -- they`re these crimes of passion and over and over again -- remember the young man who took his kids on a camping trip at three o`clock in the morning, butchered his wife, I don`t even think they found her body, then he comes back, what, a month later or something when the police are hot on his tail and he goes in the house and blows the house up with the kids.
And you know what, it`s disgusting, and the signal that this guy got with his orthodontist wife is, I think he was having an affair. I think she was making all the money and he said, you know what, don`t want you anymore. Didn`t he go work out? I think the babysitter was saying he was getting pumped up.
WRIGHT: I mean, I think that men now are resolving things with violence, particularly -- I mean, I think it`s a male-violent -- it`s disgusting.
PINSKY: Bring me back into this orbit, into this solar system.
EIGLARSH: All right. First of all, I lost count after eight or nine times that Crystal used the word men. All men are doing this.
WRIGHT: Right. I didn`t say all.
EIGLARSH: I will defend men -- well, yes. A lot. I heard men are doing that.
EIGLARSH: And these men and most men I know do not resolve their disputes that way. Number two, to suggest that race plays a role, congratulations. That was wonderful how you worked in race into this dialogue.
EIGLARSH: And more congratulations, the use of the microwave metaphor by far your best.
WRIGHT: Well, thank you, sir.
PINSKY: I want to get some answers. Samantha, here`s the thing. You could make the case that mental health services aren`t being properly provided. The case that Crystal mentioned, the guy that blew up his house was being seen by a social worker who believe there was real trouble, but she was disempowered to do anything.
Our system doesn`t allow that even when they get to the mental health system. And men are being --
PINSKY: Domestic violence is way up, substances are way up, and male -- the sense of male, let`s say male sense of their own prowess is being eviscerated on some fronts. Samantha, go ahead.
SCHACHER: Well, I think it`s a completely different theory. I think that he -- I think substance abuse was involved like you suggested, Dr. Drew. And I think that he regrets it. I think that he lost his temper. I think that he killed his wife, he wrote the letter and he said, listen, I regret what I did.
And I think that he panicked. He tried to cover up the scene. I think he tried to flee. It didn`t work out for him. And I think he regrets it. And he will have the regret for the rest of his life.
PINSKY: But Lauren, what will his defense be?
WRIGHT: Regret? I mean, come on. He killed his wife. What are you talking about panic and regret?
SCHACHER: I`m giving a theory, Crystal. I`m giving a theory. I`m not saying what he did is OK.
PINSKY: Ladies, play nice. Lauren, what will his defense be?
LAKE: I mean, it`s hard to think about what his defense could be except potentially heat of passion, just in the moment. A huge argument. Of course, he could do the mental defect. Mark already addressed that. That`s tough. But, I`m really concerned about this issue that we`re talking about because people are making light of it, but I`m really serious.
As an attorney that deals with couples and relationships every day, I am becoming increasingly aware of the fact that people are resorting to violence, aggression. Just when they don`t have the tools and the skills to understand that there is counseling. There is dialogue. There is space.
I think this case is fascinating because of this because I don`t see the other physical evidence that they`re talking about that relates him to this case except for his bizarre behavior and this note.
PINSKY: We have to leave it there. The note. We`ll keep talking about this case. I know this is -- this is a perfect place to stop. Lauren, thank you. Panel, thank you.
Next up, George Zimmerman`s trainer joins me exclusively for his first interview since the trial. He will explain why George Zimmerman sought him out after Trayvon Martin`s death. Do not go away.
RYAN SMITH, HLN ANCHOR: On the eve of opening statements on "HLN After Dark," we`re focused on Kentucky versus Young. Joshua Young facing trial. Big Josh now going to take the stand. So, our bold question, is Joshua Young guilty by association, Kyra?
KYRA PHILLIPS, HLN ANCHOR: Our jury is here. I`ve already been talking to a number of them prior to this. A lot of questions about the evidence. And we`re going to talk about that tonight.
SMITH: We`ll get into that. We`ve got a lot to show you. Check this out. "HLN After Dark."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ADAM POLLACK, OWNER, KOKOPELLI`S GYM: He was the overweight large man when he came to us and a very, very pleasant, very nice man, but physically soft. He was predominantly fat. Not a lot of muscle. Not a lot of strength.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Samantha Schacher. That, of course, was Adam Pollack, George Zimmerman`s MMA trainer who testified for the defense. He joins us tonight for his first interview since the trial and his key testimony on the stand. Back with us, Lauren Lake, Mark Eiglarsh, and Jenny Hutt.
Adam, I`ll just start with a simple question for you. Were you surprised by the verdict?
POLLACK: I wasn`t surprised by the verdict.
PINSKY: Now, when you -- when he came to see you after Trayvon was killed, George Zimmerman, what did he say to you that night?
POLLACK: Well, it wasn`t at night. It was actually in the morning.
PINSKY: The next day.
POLLACK: And, when he came to see me, he was still pretty traumatized to say the very least. He was pretty banged up and bruised up. The first thing he said to me was thank you. You know, I said, "for what?" He said, "you helped save my life." I said "what do you mean?" He said, "well, you taught me how to shrimp."
That is a move, obviously, for escaping your hips to move if you`re in a bad situation on the bottom with somebody on top of you to try to get to a more advantageous position. Well, apparently, he told me that he was having his head smashed into the sidewalk. And that was obviously not doing wonderful things for him.
So, he was able to shrimp to move just a little bit to get onto the grass where apparently he was getting his head smashed into the grass. So, that kind of made it a little bit easier for him to not be killed on the concrete, so to speak.
PINSKY: Mark, I wonder you have a question for Adam?
EIGLARSH: I do, Adam. This is, obviously, a significant thing to be part of a trial like this. And I know it affected you both personally and professionally. I`m wondering as you look back, if you could do it all over again, is there anything you would have done differently either words or actions?
POLLACK: As far as what I would have done?
PINSKY: On the stand, sir.
EIGLARSH: Yes. Anything on the stand, anything you did on your website, anything.
POLLACK: There was nothing differently for me to do. On the stand, you know, I was called simply as a witness. I was not part of the defense team and I was not part of the prosecution team. I was simply a witness answering the questions that were asked of me.
PINSKY: Jenny, go ahead.
HUTT: I have a couple of things. Number one, did you believe in George Zimmerman`s quote/unquote "innocence" from the start? And number two --
POLLACK: I`m sorry. I could barely hear you.
HUTT: Did you believe in George Zimmerman that he was not guilty or that he was quote/ unquote "innocent" from the start, "A" and "B," was that word choice in how you described his body your own? Because hearing you talk about his being soft and doughy like that, I was cringing. And I can`t stand the guy.
POLLACK: Well, on the word choice, it was actually an interesting conversation that I had had with one of my other trainers the day before that I was going to be going on the stand and the conversation -- he didn`t realize after all the hype of the media, he didn`t realize who the individual was that that was actually somebody who was a person he had worked with at one point or another. And when I described who he is, "oh the big softy."
PINSKY: Interesting. I`ve got to take a break right there.
POLLACK: It wasn`t simply something that I came up with on my own by myself thinking, hmm, that would be a good thing to say in any way, shape, or form.
PINSKY: Got to take a break.
POLLACK: It was a conversation I had with one --
PINSKY: Back with Adam Pollack and the panel after this quick break.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Samantha Schacher. Still with us, Lauren Lake, Mark Eiglarsh, Jenny Hutt, and we still have Adam Pollack exclusively. Adam was a key witness in the Zimmerman trial who testified for the defense. Adam, listen, I appreciate you being here. But I`m wondering --
POLLACK: Thank you for having me on the show.
PINSKY: I appreciate it. I have to ask you this question, though. I wonder why you seem so -- we`re all trying to understand this case and get our head around it. You seem very defensive when we ask you questions. I`m wondering why.
POLLACK: I seem defensive when you ask me questions?
PINSKY: Not just me, but the panel. I`m imagining this whole process has been unpleasant for you, this whole experience has not been cool for you, because you seem still very defensive as people are just trying to get their head around it.
POLLACK: Well, I don`t know that necessarily I`m -- if I`m coming across defensive, it`s not intentional. You know, I didn`t ask for any of this type of stuff in any, way, shape, or form. You know, I didn`t sit here and say, hey, you know, I need my face across the world. You know, I was called in as a witness and I testified as a witness.
Interestingly enough, you know, there`s a whole lot of things that have ensued out of that that I didn`t necessarily ask for any, way, shape, or form. You know, I had a guy comes to me, you know, to lose weight and to get into shape who is grossly overweight. I put him on a diet. I gave him an exercise program that was something that was interestingly enough for him that he would engage in.
He wasn`t interested in being on a treadmill or anything of the nature. He wanted to do something that would keep his interest. And so, I did that for him.
POLLACK: And he was doing wonderfully and making wonderful progress. He lost, you know, in the vicinity of about 80 pounds over the course of a year which is fantastic progress, you know? And this was not a guy who was coming to my facility to be a professional fighter or anything of that nature.
POLLACK: And I helped him to go and get in shape and lose weight or getting the better shape. He still had a ways to go.
PINSKY: Guys, I got to cut. We are against the clock. I appreciate, Adam. Sam, I`m going to give you the "Last Call" to what your thoughts were that you wanted to get through. Thank you, panel. We`ll be right back. "Last Call" is next.
PINSKY: All right, Sam. You were trying to say something there to Zimmerman`s trainer. The "Last Call" goes to you.
SCHACHER: Well, I`m curious to know what their conversations were about in their training sessions, because let`s be honest. Do you really do, as a trainer, get to know your client because you`re forcing the conversation for these hour or longer bouts. And I`m curious. Did George Zimmerman ever vent to him about the crimes in the neighborhood? What did they talk about?
PINSKY: We`ll have to leave that for another night, Sam. Thank you so much. Thank you for watching. "HLN After Dark" starts right now.