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Baby-Faced Teen: A Murderer?
Aired July 31, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, he is accused of helping to kill his own stepbrother, but is Joshua Young a victim himself, controlled by a father who confessed to the crime, ruined by a psychopath who tortured animals, dominated by a dad with horn tattoos on his head? Was this son forced into a deal with the devil?
The victim`s father is here with this plea -- don`t feel sorry for Josh.
I will untangle these tortured relationships and twisted family tree.
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening.
My co-host tonight, Samantha Schacher, host of "Pop Trigger" on the Young Turks Network.
Coming up, Lindsay Lohan out of rehab after a 90-day court-ordered stay. My question is, does Hollywood, working Hollywood, make it virtually impossible for those who show signs of mental illness to get complete help?
A former child star, she`s also an Oscar winner, is here to discuss that question.
But first, testimony`s under way in the trial of 17-year-old Joshua Young, charged with helping murder his own stepbrother. Take a look at this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Was ahead, ran up towards the creek area by the school and looked down and yelled out, "Miss Warner, there`s a body!"
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Trey Zwicker was afraid of the dark, yet his body was found in a dark ditch behind Liberty High School, a dark place where Trey was lured by the defendant, his stepbrother, by his stepfather.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Joshua`s mother, can`t make this stuff up, she died of an overdose. All of the evidence that you`re going to hear is that they were friends.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He loved his family and he loved his little sister so much that he didn`t want to leave her alone in a house of horrors.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you look at his temples, you can see he has devil horns tattooed on his head.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And his son just as guilty. All the rest of them that was in on it, they`re just as guilty. I don`t think no deal should be made anywhere. They all should be punished, they all should suffer.
PINSKY: And joining us, Crystal Wright from conservativeblackchick.com, Lauren Lake, attorney and judge in the new show "Paternity Court," Mike Eiglarsh, attorney at speaktomark.com, and Brian Copeland, talk show host on KGO Radio in San Francisco, also an author of "Not A Genuine Black Man."
HLN legal correspondent Jean Casarez joins me.
Can you give us the latest, Jean?
JEAN CASAREZ, HLN LEGAL CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Well, the latest is we`ve really learned now what the prosecution`s theory is, and it is that father Joshua and son Josh Young, now standing trial for murder, participated together in the killing of Trey, and that that night, there was a family barbecue, and everything just sort of seemed fine, and Trey went up and he took a shower, you would think to go to bed, but all of a sudden, he puts his clothes back on, and the prosecution`s theory is that he was lured down behind the high school in an irrigation ditch area, and that is where both father and son then killed him.
PINSKY: Wow, Jean. It`s such a chilling case, and when you hear about it, it makes the skin, the hair go up on the back of your neck.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, CO-HOST: It makes my blood boil, absolutely.
PINSKY: So, here are the folks in this case. We have Trey Zwicker. He`s 14, murdered May of 2011.
Joshua Young, his stepbrother, Little Josh, a year older. He is on trial for his part in the murder. He`s what they call Little Josh. His mom had died from a drug overdose.
His father, Big Josh, Joshua Gouker, has already confessed to the murder, although his stories have changed multiple times.
The victim`s father, Terry Zwicker, testified today in court. He will join us here on this program shortly. The victim`s mom is Amanda.
Big Josh Gouker said his son, little Josh, killed Trey. Another version goes he killed Trey to punish Amanda for aborting his baby. He also said he killed Trey after he had snapped.
Crystal, who killed this child?
CRYSTAL WRIGHT, CONSERVATIVEBLACKCHICK.COM: That`s the big question. But, look, I think Big Josh killed the child, and I think he brought through brain-washing and forcing, basically, young Josh to be his conduit to, you know, I would say evil, he -- I think Little Josh probably helped him kill his stepbrother, and I think it`s reprehensible.
And I think that Josh should be -- little Josh needs to be evaluated psychiatrically. I mean, you know better than this than I do.
But I mean, I don`t think -- he`s 15 years old. And I don`t think we should condemn him that he`s the big, bad murderer. I think he learned bad behavior, like we said last night, from his father. I don`t know if this kid knows good from bad.
PINSKY: Lauren, what do you think?
WRIGHT: I mean, they tortured animals?
PINSKY: Yes, he did. But listen, you can cross into a zone that you cannot come back from.
Lauren, what do you think?
LAUREN LAKE, JUDGE OF PATERNITY COURT: You know, I think it`s hard to wrap our minds around, because we`re hearing so much information that suggests that Little Josh may be this bad seed. But I think it`s still possible for a bad seed to still be negatively influenced in an area where maybe he did not have any intention or any plan.
I am having trouble with this case, Dr. Drew, getting to the why. Why? And I know the prosecution doesn`t have to give a motive when it`s proving its case beyond a reasonable doubt, but why in the world would this young boy murder his stepbrother?
PINSKY: I know. Listen.
PINSKY: Brian, I`ll go to you first, then mark. I saw you nodding your head at what Crystal and Lauren were saying.
But here`s the why -- psychopaths don`t need a why. He`s angry. Therefore, he wants to kill somebody, and that`s about it.
PINSKY: Now, if son inherited some of that stuff and then got all that environmental horror, you`ve got a pretty -- bad seed is an understatement.
But go ahead, Brian. BRIAN COPELAND, RADIO HOST: Well, here`s the thing, he was in several -- young josh was in several different foster homes, and from the case, the last foster home he was in for seven months, he was doing well. He was getting good grades. He was being a good kid, a good citizen. He had plans for the future, he had goals.
And then some idiots made the decision to give custody of this young man back to this sociopath that he has for a father. So, I believe that, clearly, he was under some kind of a pressure or control from the dad, but I have a real hard time believing that he committed the murder. It looks like there`s a lot of evidence that he was an accessory after the fact. Certainly, but actually participating in the murder itself, I have a hard time buying that right now.
PINSKY: Mark, I`ll give you the floor, Mark. And also ask, is it right that he be tried as an adult?
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: All right, let`s go to the first issue. Where`s the evidence? Jean gave her spiel. We saw the opening thing. I have read every article on Google.
What I don`t know is who`s going to prove that he had any involvement in this case?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.
EIGLARSH: Other than his despicable father?
EIGLARSH: So, where is the evidence? They can have the theories all day long that he was with his father that he might have played some role. Not one of us can point to one single piece of evidence, including but not limited to a busload of nuns or a confession.
WRIGHT: It`s a he said --
EIGLARSH: That say he did anything. The second issue --
WRIGHT: I want to go back to, Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: Go ahead, Crystal.
WRIGHT: I want to go back to what you said, Dr. Drew. You said we don`t know if he inherited this psychopath, you know, this psychotic behavior from his father. That`s why he needs to be evaluated.
I think to Mark`s point, last night, he needs to be -- Little Josh needs to pay if he took part in this crime, but I don`t think we can assume that daddy is psycho so baby is psycho. I mean, I think that that`s the big question here.
EIGLARSH: Well, that`s not proof.
WRIGHT: Inherited behavior. And I don`t think he should be tried as an adult, so anyway.
EIGLARSH: Drew, the court of public opinion is free to hang whoever they want. Some people love it, you know, like the gladiator days. Everybody could condemn everybody and feel better about their miserable life. I`m looking at this from a legal angle and I have yet to hear -- I`m asking anyone to show me proof beyond a reasonable doubt, other than guilt by association --
WRIGHT: I think you`re right, mark.
EIGLARSH: -- by being a horrible father that he`s guilty. I haven`t seen it yet.
COPELAND: Let me ask this. You have this cousin who`s prepared to testify that Young Josh called her and had her drive him to get rid of bloody clothes and potentially get rid of what seems to be the murder weapon.
Now, if that`s the case, he is an accessory after the fact, but under Kentucky law, doesn`t that make him guilty as part of the actual conspiracy that he`s charged with?
PINSKY: Lauren, let`s ask you that.
LAKE: Well, I mean, yes --
COPELAND: He`s, he`s --
LAKE: Yes, technically maybe an accessory after the fact, yes. I`m still having problem with the fact that did that really, truly happen? And if so, again, under the influence of whom?
I am with Mark. In this case, I am having such a difficult time establishing, A, a motive, which would be great for me, but also, B, the evidence that suggests he was there at the time of the killing, that had some type of, you know, hand in it. I am having trouble with that in terms of evidence.
PINSKY: OK --
LAKE: Now, they have some statements that he says that he made.
PINSKY: Mark, let me go to you on this question. The father, Big Josh, is expected to testify for the prosecution this week. How can he possibly be helpful to the prosecution?
EIGLARSH: It doesn`t matter what he has to say. First of all, generically, he`s a piece of garbage in terms of his actions and what he did and all that. But within this case, he has told two different versions of what took place. So, it doesn`t matter what version comes out of his mouth now. It just doesn`t matter.
So, he to me is not a witness that you can believe.
PINSKY: Hang on. Sam, go.
WRIGHT: Let`s talk about evidence.
SCHACHER: Exactly, Mark -- Mark, listen. Here`s the thing. I agree with you 100 percent because I find myself almost ping-ponging back-and- forth to how I feel about this case. And so, I`m waiting to see the evidence, because part of me feels really bad for this kid who had no shot, who is in foster care who lost his mom, and I say to myself, OK, was this kid a victim also, or you know, was he manipulated by the dad, was he influenced by the dad, or was this kid really just as callus as his father, and are we going to see any of the evidence that`s going to prove either/or?
PINSKY: I think when we get to behavior bureau -- hang on -- well, when we get to the behavior bureau, we will at least have differential evidence from pros who look at all these kinds of things all the time.
Next up -- hang on, panel. You stay with me -- the brutality of the murder, what does it tell us about the killer or killers?
And later, the victim`s father will join us after a difficult day on the witness stand. Don`t want to miss this. What does he have to say? We`ll find out.
Back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where he was found with his skull bashed open, his head and neck having been struck multiple times, maybe with a bat? Maybe with a metal pipe? We don`t know what the instrument of Trey`s death was because that defendant woke up his cousin in the middle of the night and asked her to help him get rid of a bloody bat and clothes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host Samantha Schacher.
We`ve been talking about the trial of Joshua Young. It`s a disgusting trial, a 17-year-old charged in connection with the beating death of his 14-year-old stepbrother.
And, Samantha, you were telling me during the break that the condition the body was found in when the poor biological father had to identify him was just horrible.
SCHACHER: Right. I can`t imagine. I was watching today.
The opening statements and then, of course, the victim`s father took the stand. And he said that, you know, at first, police wouldn`t even allow him to come see the body because it was badly beaten, covered in flies, larva. It just breaks my heart saying this out loud.
Then finally, when the father was able to peek over -- I guess they kept him a distance away. He knew within seconds that was his son, a truly tragic moment.
PINSKY: Crystal Wright, Lauren Lake, Brian Copeland still here.
Joining us criminologist Casey Jordan.
Casey, you heard the prosecutors describe the brutality of this killing, struck repeatedly in the head with a pipe or bat. What does this tell us about the killer or killers?
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: This is pure rage. I mean, you don`t need a PhD for this stuff. The point is, was it bottled-up rage? Was it justifiable rage? Where did the rage come from?
Given the story that Josh Sr. told about how his stepson may have stolen his lighter and he had to get vengeance on him for a theft of a cigarette lighter? It`s completely beyond the pale. I mean, there`s no vindication for it.
So, you have to wonder if this is simply the beating of a young child. And don`t forget, Big Josh was also accused of beating a dog to death with a baseball bat --
PINSKY: A puppy.
JORDAN: -- while his younger son videotaped it.
PINSKY: All right. Casey --
JORDAN: And that is to me one of the most telling clues here.
PINSKY: It is for me, too.
JORDAN: If you can do it on a dog, you can do it to a child.
PINSKY: Yes. And, Casey, but this is where it crosses the line for me, and help me educate everybody about this fact, that it says something - - well, Big Josh, everyone gets the message. Everyone understands, evil, bad, psychopath. No disagreement.
The question is, the 15-year-old that`s filming his dad doing that and laughing and participating, to what extent is that a kid that`s irretrievable, Casey?
JORDAN: That is really what this case is all about. It`s a policy question. When do we write off a child because he has slipped through the cracks? Society did not help him. Put him in a foster home that actually was doing well for him and then gave him back to the father with the devil`s horns.
So, we`re really torn, because we don`t want to believe this child is irretrievable. I don`t think he is, based on the few months he spent with that foster family where he thrived. I think there is still a chance for him. And I have met children who I wouldn`t give you a plug nickel for their recovery or their rehabilitation, but I think this one may have a chance.
JORDAN: After this trial, if he`s convicted, no, you can write him off.
PINSKY: I want -- yes, yes, if he goes into the system, it`s over. But I want everyone on the panel to comment on what Casey just said. I`m going to take the other opinion, say the fact that he was brutalizing a puppy puts him in a different category.
Brian, you first.
COPELAND: Well, the thing is, he wasn`t brutalizing the puppy, his father was. But I think it was certainly sense deprivation that he was there. Obviously, if he was able to sit there and watch it and laugh at it, I don`t think you can write this kid off for exactly the same reason Casey did.
He was seven months with that foster family and he was doing just great. Had they not taken him away and given him back to a dad who was evil dad who just got out of prison, you know, none of us would be here today.
PINSKY: Danine Manette -- Lauren, I`ll go to you next -- Danine Manette is going to come in here in a minute on behavior bureau and tell us how these kids for an extended period of time now how to manipulate, know how to get by when in the system, but, Lauren, address this issue of him falling through the cracks.
LAKE: I think it`s obvious, he fell through the cracks. And when he was given the attention that he deserved as a child, a loving home, he responded.
Dr. Drew, I also want to speak to the same thing that we see in gang culture often when people are called upon to do drive-bys or beat their way into a gang and you have people that otherwise wouldn`t show any other type of violence. I know this kid isn`t that kind of child, but I`m saying, people react to certain situations based upon peer pressure, and there`s no greater peer pressure than the pressure from your father.
Maybe he was laughing because his father said to him, you know, if you`re a man, you`d better laugh at this, you`d better think this is funny if you`re going to be hanging with me. We don`t know that. I`m only giving up some type of explanation as to how a child can thrive in one family and then, all of a sudden, get associated with his biological father and then turn and look like Satan`s sidekick.
PINSKY: Crystal, I want you to comment next. But again, I`m usually that guy, Crystal, that Lauren -- I usually take Lauren`s position, but there`s something about this one that I can`t -- and we don`t know what happened in reality when he was in that foster family. We really don`t know. He might have been thriving for him, which might not have been so well.
But, Crystal, your comment.
WRIGHT: Yes, I agree with everything that everyone has said. The father had mind control over this son. And to Lauren`s point just now, I think he told him, Josh, if you don`t film me killing this puppy, I want you to laugh, I want you to be a man, I`m going to beat your butt when this is all said and done.
But I`m going to go back to something else fundamentally.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Doesn`t even have to say it.
WRIGHT: Why are we talking about the role of Amanda, his stepmother, who is still living with Big Josh? And I`m going to say that I think she knew this kind of behavior was in her new husband.
But, you know, the relationship -- what troubles me about Big Josh, Amanda and the adults in this situation, some -- those two adults -- is that somehow, their lives were more important than the children. And I think Big Josh wanted a new wife and he kicked little -- why aren`t we talking about this?
I mean, women know when men do bad things and they stick -- and I`m not saying all women, but women tend to be nurturers and we`re defined by what? Having a man, we talked about this last week on the show.
So, women who don`t have men, right? I was bullied, because, Crystal, you don`t have a man. What do you know about being married, right? So, what are we teaching women when we say, just be in a relationship, be with the man for the sake of being with the man, even if he brutalizes your child?
PINSKY: But listen, there`s --
WRIGHT: I think there`s a lesson in this.
COPELAND: It`s sad.
PINSKY: Well, the lesson is, by the way, if you don`t want your daughters to be attracted to guys like that, dads, don`t treat your daughters awfully.
Samantha, your point.
WRIGHT: Yes, I agree with you. We have to treat women with self- respect and to love themselves and ask for help --
SCHACHER: Crystal, sometimes it`s deeper.
WRIGHT: I know it`s deeper, but society, we don`t do a good job as other women telling women and supporting them, like when we talked about the Huma situation. That`s all I`m going to say.
PINSKY: All right. Samantha, finish it.
SCHACHER: I think it can be so much deeper, Crystal. You don`t know her history. You don`t know what kind of family she was brought up in.
WRIGHT: I`m not a mind-reader --
PINSKY: I can script it. I can tell you how it works. It`s pretty easy.
WRIGHT: Thank you, Dr. Drew.
COPELAND: I was going to say, there are so many of those horrible situations where you see a mother who is willing to look the other way and allow her daughter to be abused by her boyfriend.
PINSKY: Happens all the time.
COPELAND: The daughter to be abused by the stepdad or the son.
PINSKY: Happens all the time.
COPELAND: I as a kid was in that situation a couple times. And you know, it`s awful, and it does boil down to a lack of self-respect on the part of the mother.
SCHACHER: They should never have been in the home, the judge should never have granted custody of Josh to Josh Sr.
COPELAND: In the first place, in the first place.
PINSKY: I only wish it were as simple as self-esteem, guys. If we`re just building self-esteem. Our job, Casey, our jobs would be so much easier.
Casey, take me home.
JORDAN: I really want to point out that I`m going to agree, the wife had a choice to hook up with this man, but the son did not have a choice. He was born to it and no 15-year-old is going to disagree with a dad who`s swinging a bat on a dog. It could be him.
The bat could swing in another direction. Never forget that.
PINSKY: Thank you, panel.
Next up, is Josh be a monster or can he be helped? We`ve got the behavior bureau ringing on this.
And later, Lindsay Lohan, fresh out of rehab. Amanda Bynes still on lockdown. Does the entertainment business make it difficult or even impossible to treat mental illness? An Oscar-winner joins us to discuss.
We are back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And there is one thing that both sides agree on, and that is that Josh Gouker is a monster and a murderer.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you set your son up to kill Trey Zwicker?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. Absolutely not.
We wanted them to think that Josh did it because he`s a juvenile. He`d get less time.
PINSKY: This kid beat his stepbrother over the head with a bat 15 times! I am shocked at how much less empathy I have for this kid than my panel does. Back with my co-host, Samantha Schacher. We are talking about the trial of Joshua Young, the 17-year-old charged in connection with the beating death of his 14-year-old stepbrother.
Time for the behavior bureau, Casey Jordan, Lauren Lake still here.
Joining us: criminal investigator Danine Manette, author of "Ultimate Betrayal", psychologist Wendy Walsh, author of "30-Day Love Detox". Wendy is in London. A little bit of a delay there.
Now, last night, my panel and I were divided on whether this kid is beyond reach.
Danine, thank you for joining us here on CNN Los Angeles today. It`s a pleasure having you here. I know you have very strong feelings about this. You`ve heard the conversation we`ve had so far.
You worked in the criminal system with adolescents. What wisdom can you bring to this case?
DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: OK, I can`t say whether or not I`ve seen enough evidence to say whether or not this kid was involved or whether or not he did it. But what I do know is that before, like you said, before I went to law school, I spent many years working in juvenile hall up in Alameda County, Oakland.
And what I know is that people like to pretend like these kids, because they`re 14 or 15 or whatever, that they don`t know what they`re doing, that they don`t know right from wrong, and that is absolutely false. Some of these kids will look you in the eye and stab you in the chest and not think twice about it.
And the way that they present to their social workers and their foster care workers and their attorneys is much different than the way they present to people like me who`s in the units with them every day for eight to 16 hours.
And it`s a different way. You know when they know who to game, they`re very sophisticated a lot of times, and kids, especially that have been in the foster care system for a while, they have coping mechanisms, and they know how to change themselves in order to adapt to their environment in order to be pleasing and in order to get what they need because of the instability in their environment. But people just underestimate the sophistication of a lot of these kids and I think that could be the case.
PINSKY: And the callousness.
Wendy, I see you nodding your head, Wendy.
WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, it seems like they have a very sophisticated knowledge of the criminal system as well, understanding what crimes are going to get you time and what age hits. But I think it`s important to remember, Dr. Drew, that you know, the brain has some neuroplasticity, and environment is paramount in shaping the brain. The younger, obviously, the better, as far as making this brain change.
So, again, I wouldn`t want to completely dismiss this kid, although I will say he`s 17 and that`s very close to having an adult brain and having a lot of this being more hard-wired.
PINSKY: Now, Casey, I want to go back to you before I go to Lauren. Casey, people think I`m being cold about this case, and I know you think he is potentially reachable. But I get this feeling that my panel, somehow, if Charlie Manson were carting around a couple 17-year-olds, they would be sympathetic because, oh, my God, there`s a possibility of retrieval here.
Things that affect psychopathy are pretty well set by 17, wouldn`t you agree? And if, indeed, he did these things, which is the brutal killing of his stepbrother, and was having glee with the beating of a puppy, isn`t, Casey, that enough to give us some suspicion that this kid shouldn`t be walking amongst us, even though it all happened when he was 15, 16, 17?
JORDAN: Fifteen, not 17, 15. And if most of us were held accountable for the stupid things we did when we were 15 -- can you even remember it? Here in criminology 101, we talk about differential association. It`s simply learning theory, that kids learn from intimate personal groups, usually parents and peers and their brothers and sisters. They learn techniques, they learn motives.
And if they have been exposed to nothing -- Wendy is right, environment is key here -- if this kid had no exposure, no moral compass until he was 15 years old, then he learned to be like his father. That does not mean he can`t unlearn it. And I`m telling you, it has to be done on a case-by-case basis. I am really on the fence with this particular kid. I need more information. I don`t have enough evidence, just like the rest of you said.
PINSKY: Of course. Hey, listen, we are arm chair quarterback.
JORDAN: I`ve met 15-year-olds I would write off, but this one not yet.
PINSKY: Lauren, do you feel me, understand my frustration?
PINSKY: And my feeling is if it were just environment, I would have some hope, but I have this feeling that there`s a brain thing here, too, that he might have inherited from dad, but Lauren, go ahead.
WENDY WALSH, PH.D., AUTHOR, "THE 30-DAY LOVE DETOX": Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: Yes. Lauren first.
LAUREN LAKE, JUDGE OF "PATERNITY COURT": I understand what you`re saying, but I feel like this exact discussion that we`re having is why I believe this case should be in the juvenile court system and not -- he should not be tried as an adult. I just feel so strongly that to lock this kid away right now, if he`s found guilty, that`s it! It`s a wrap for him.
PINSKY: Yes, you`re right, that`s true.
LAKE: I mean, there`s just no more hope for him at this point.
PINSKY: No, you`re right. The question is, should it be a wrap for him? That`s the question. It`s a big question. That`s a big deal.
LAKE: But Dr. Drew, there`s not enough evidence in this case. That`s why I feel like it`s overcharged as well. If there was more evidence, maybe, but we don`t have enough evidence to just sail this child up the adult river.
PINSKY: Sammy, you can comment on this.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: OK.
PINSKY: We`ve got a cousin or something that`s going to say he took him out with bloody clothes and a bat and hit him in the -- dumped him somewhere.
SCHACHER: Right. So, we have that evidence. I`m not sure --
LAKE: But where`s this history of violence?
SCHACHER: That`s true. There is no history of violence, you`re right about that.
SCHACHER: There is no history of violence.
PINSKY: The puppy.
SCHACHER: The puppy, the recent puppy. Since he`s been with the father, there is history of violence, but prior --
WALSH: We have to go with what we have.
SCHACHER: Right, but prior, with the foster family, there was no history of violence.
PINSKY: OK. I want to give Wendy a chance to ring in here. Go ahead, Wendy. I know this will be right here. Go ahead.
WALSH: Dr. Drew, I think we can all agree, because environment is paramount, because the brain can change and especially at this young age, and I think we`re all having sort of some cognitive dissidence here with trying to figure out whether this kid can be saved or not because it`s one thing to know that he has the potential to change, and it`s another thing to wonder if our culture can give him the services and resources he needs to actually change.
PINSKY: Wendy, we haven`t gotten there yet. That`s a whole other matter.
PINSKY: I can`t get enough resources for people that are treatable, that have resources. You can`t get insurance money, you can`t get treatment, you can`t get participation. It`s, yes, you`re right, that`s a tall order here.
PINSKY: And I think those of us that work with the system know that, oh, my goodness, the amount of treatment he would require would be phenomenal.
SCHACHER: If he truly is a callous person. Let`s say that they were a duo like we saw with the filming in the beating of the puppy, and he is just ingrained a vial, evil person, can he be rehabilitated from that?
PINSKY: From being a -- well --
JORDAN: One incident, yes.
WALSH: He may be able to be rehabilitated --
PINSKY: Here`s the deal. Here`s the deal. We have Trey Zwicker`s father who had testified today in court. Very tough day for him. He is here. He knows this kid. He`s going to give us some information. Again, it`s one man`s point of view, but it would be interesting to sort of gather this information to see if it affects our opinion.
Thank you, panel. Don`t you dare go away. We`ll be right back with Trey Zwicker`s father.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Josh changed our lives forever the night he decided to brutally end Trey`s life over a plate of food and a lighter. We are now left with the feeling something is missing. Something is missing, and that is Trey.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Terry, trey`s dad, walks to the top and looks down and is able to I.D. his son`s body.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Trey was just an all-around good kid. He had his quirks. He talked back, sassed just like any other kid.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did Amanda date (INAUDIBLE) prior to her relationship with you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, ma`am. Amanda seen several other guys after me, and it got to the point where these other guys were telling me that I could not see my child, so I pushed child support on myself and took myself to court for it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is so heartbreaking as my daughter begs me to get Trey back, and there`s nothing I can do.
PINSKY: Welcome back. My co-host is Samantha Schacher. Difficult day in court for Trey Zwicker`s father and the stepmom. He had to hear and see the evidence against the individuals accused of having a hand in his son`s beating death. Trey`s stepbrother, Joshua Young. Terry Zwicker testified in court today. He joins us today with his wife, Terry. Laura Lake, Mark Eiglarsh on with us as well.
Terry, you know, we think about what you must be going through and just our heart breaks for you. It`s just got to be so, so awful. Now, first of all, is there anything you want people to know, just off the top?
TERRANCE ZWICKER, TREY ZWICKER`S FATHER: I thank you very much for your sympathy and condolences. But, first off, I`m seeking justice, you know, for the American people. You know, I hear a lot of this is a child, what are we doing, this, that and the other. But you have to understand, in my eyes, there is no child there, there is a monster that has taken something away from he and he can`t give it back.
PINSKY: Terry, may I ask you, did you have any hint that this kid, Joshua, was capable of this sort of thing? Were you concerned about your son being around him?
ZWICKER: No, sir. The Young Family has always been a friend of mine. I went to church with their family. I went to church with Joshua Young`s mother, you know? So, for me, this is even equally hard to point the finger at their child and know with definity that he was very capable of committing this crime, and I believe that the prosecutors are going to place all the evidence in order to prove that fact.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Sam.
SCHACHER: First of all, terry, both of you, I`m so sorry for everything that you guys are going to go through. My question is, is he just like his dad? Do you believe that he is that callous? Is there any history that you know of that makes you so definitive in believing that he did murder your son?
ZWICKER: Well, I was able to, you know, see him kind of grow up from a distance. I have a few run-ins with him that would lead me to believe that kind of stuff. Also, I know that he had had a Facebook page. And you know, I can`t really remember anything that`s on it. I can just tell you that there was a lot of violent stuff on there, and I read it, but I read it at a time that I was just now starting into this journey that I`ve been on for two years.
And to be honest, ma`am, I barely remember who I was within the first six months of being, looking down in that ditch.
PINSKY: Mark, you had a question for Terry.
MARK EIGLARSH, SPEAKTOMARK.COM: Yes. First, as a father of two sons and a daughter, but two sons, I just, I feel for your loss. I`m hoping that you can help us understand what the prosecution`s case is. What is the best evidence that convinces you that he`s guilty? Not things from the past, but what evidence is going to be introduced to show that he played a role in this?
ZWICKER: See, that`s the part that I really can`t answer, because to be honest with you, sir, they`ve never told me what they have. And I mean, I`ve seen the video. I`ve heard bits and pieces of statements, but just as well as you are all watching from afar, this is one twisted story that, you know, me and Trey`s mother had not been together for years.
I don`t know what went on down at her house. I didn`t even ask her what went on down at her house. I just knew that week to week, Trey was to come to my house and I lived as a normal human being as an electrician that owns his own business. And you know, that was the gist of what I know.
I just know that, you know, I have past knowledge of who Josh Young is, what he`s capable of doing, what I saw with my own two eyes. And so far, that`s as far as I`ve actually gotten into the case where you guys are at now watching it on TV. I have not seen the findings. I have not seen, you know, any of the latter part of the stuff that`s going to come out. And as of today, they`re not going to allow me to see it because I don`t get to go in there.
PINSKY: Lauren, you had a question?
LAKE: I do. First off, my sincerest condolences. I really wanted to ask you if you could shed light on the relationship between your son and young Joshua. We`ve been hearing conflicting reports about them being very close, Joshua loving your son very much, having a relationship. And then we hear, on the other hand, they weren`t close at all. Can you fill us in on that?
ZWICKER: Well, ma`am, what I`m going to tell you here is provable because there`s a document over behind -- in the courthouse that`s behind us now. Me and Trey`s mother was together from 1994, 1995 era to the probably late 1998, and that`s when I had started a custody battle. And she had already married Joshua Gouker, and they were -- and once I removed Trey from that home, he was probably two to three years old, maybe four at the latest.
I mean, I would have to really breakdown the time frame. And Joshua Young was not in that house. He was not a part of that household because his mother at that time was still living, and obviously, Gouker`s always been a person just like he is today and we see on TV. So, she didn`t let him have anything to do with his own son.
And with that being said, I removed Trey from that home. Amanda did not return for about four to five years later. Trey was already starting the first grade. Gouker had been incarcerated and she had spent a little time as well, from what I understand, I`m not really sure what their charges were or what they were arrested for.
All I know is Trey was in my custody the whole time. Gouker was not a part of Trey`s life. Young was not a part of Trey`s life. Now, Young was from the street we grew up on, and his mother had moved back on the street for a short while, I would say less than about a six-month period. Trey was still young at that time. We`re talking maybe eight to nine years old at that time.
And just as fast as you`ve seen Young on the street, he was gone. Trey had knowledge of Young, but it was a very, very short period of time, and I never really informed him of what, how his mother and Joshua Gouker had together. That was a portion of our lives we were just trying to forget.
PINSKY: So, he never really had a relationship with the kid, is that right?
ZWICKER: No. No, sir.
ZWICKER: Eight years later, Gouker returns, and when Gouker returns, obviously, he immediately starts going to look for his son, and he finds him, and they start bringing him back on visits.
ZWICKER: During which time, Trey spent the majority of his time at my home, because Gouker was no longer supposed to be in Amanda`s life and no longer in Trey`s life, so they were playing -- they were playing that quite safe, because like I said, there is a document in this courthouse --
PINSKY: Got it.
ZWICKER: -- that says absolutely no contact.
PINSKY: Got it. Terry, I`m against the clock. I`ve got to go. I want to thank you and your wife for being here. I really do appreciate it. This is an awful thing.
ZWICKER: Thank you very much, sir.
PINSKY: And I think what you`ve added helps clarify some of what`s going on here. Don`t go away. Be right back.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Samantha Schacher. Lindsay Lohan completed a 90-day court-ordered stay in rehab today. Another child star, Amanda Bynes, being held for continued psychiatric care on a 14-day hold. The question I have is, does this business of entertainment make it difficult, if not impossible, to treat mental illness?
We`re back with Danine Manette, Casey Jordan, and Wendy Walsh. Joining us, academy award winning actress, Patty Duke. She is an advocate for the mentally ill, having publicly battled bipolar disorder. Patty, she wrote me a letter and we got Patty on here. Patty, you are concerned for Amanda Bynes. She is -- you were her several -- couple decades ago, right?
PATTY DUKE, ACTRESS & MENTAL HEALTH ADVOCATE: Yes. I`m not just concerned for Amanda and Lindsay, I`m concerned for all of the people who are still suffering with a mental illness when treatment is available and I`m a walking example that it works. When I was 35, which was 31 years ago, I was diagnosed as bipolar. After beginning treatment, which included medication, I began to be balanced in my life for the first time.
PINSKY: Were you, patty, were you like Amanda in terms of bizarre behavior, excessive money spending, and then denial about it and no insight?
DUKE: It`s as if I gave her a blueprint.
DUKE: I married somebody I didn`t know. I don`t know if she`s done that yet. It only lasted 13 days. What was the most tragic for me was not how it affected things in show business, it was how it affected my children. My children never knew what mom was going to show up, the loving, caring, overindulgent mom or the mom who would give you the back of her hand in a second for no reason or torture you and belittled you.
PINSKY: Oh, my God.
DUKE: I am -- that`s the part of her life that I want to see get better. I know she doesn`t have children yet and all that, but --
PINSKY: And patty, you certainly can. I`ve got to take a break, but I want to talk about the difficulties in doing so in a business where people make a lot of money and people make a lot of money often. I want to bring her right back before, perhaps, (INAUDIBLE). Back after this.
PINSKY: We are talking to actress, Patty Duke, about mental illness and its stigma in Hollywood. Patty, first of all, thank you for joining us. Secondly, I want to bring you back when I have time to really dig into this a little further. Comment, if you can, about how difficult it is to get stabilized when people are reeling you back into work, perhaps, prematurely, which is, I think, unfortunately what is happening with Lindsay and may happen with Amanda.
DUKE: You know, I differ a little about this. I think maybe the work could be good as long as she sticks with her treatment.
PINSKY: Yes, I think you`re right. I mean, I know that Robert Downey had to drop out of circulation for a couple of years and just focus on his treatment, and that`s the thing about addiction treatment, you have to spend a lot of time on it. Casey, have you ever dealt with this issue when you`re trying to treat somebody and prematurely, they end up back in work?
JORDAN: Oh, and with family members as well. So, I`ve seen it firsthand. And the bottom line is that you have to assess what the triggers are. Patty may be right, maybe work would be good for her, but usually, there`s some kind of triggers, especially for child stars, that really do set them off and put them on a bender.
So, I usually think going back to work too soon endangers the support groups and those coping mechanisms which can really make rehab stick. So, it really depends on a case-by-case basis, but I think it may be a bad idea in Amanda`s case.
PINSKY: Wendy finish?
DUKE: -- your expertise.
WALSH: Work is one thing, but the entertainment industry is another. That`s -- a movie set is not a place for an addict, yes.
PINSKY: And Patty, you agree with that. Patty, thank you so much. We`re going to bring you back. I think it`s phenomenal that you sent us a letter. An academy award-winning actress shows up here to talk about this important issue. Thank you, panel. "Last Call" is next.
DUKE: Thank you all.
PINSKY: Sam, Patty had mental illness and we didn`t have social media so we all didn`t know about it. Today, it`s everywhere.
SCHACHER: It`s everywhere. And I think it`s even more difficult for celebrities now to be dealing with mental illness because of the obsession with celebrity paparazzi, social media. It`s crazy.
PINSKY: And access to social media. Thank you all for watching. Sam, thank you for joining me tonight and be my co-host. "HLN After Dark" starts right now.