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PIERS MORGAN LIVE
Castro to Speak in Court; Arkansas Jail Break; O.J. Simpson Granted Parole; NSA Spying Controversy; Interview with Ed Nixon
Aired July 31, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PIERS MORGAN, CNN HOST: This is PIERS MORGAN LIVE. Welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world.
Tonight crime and punishment. The monster speaks. Ariel Castro in court tomorrow after saying this just four days ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIEL CASTRO, PLED GUILTY TO 937 COUNTS: My addiction to pornography and my sexual problem has really taken a toll on my mind.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: But could anything he says now make any difference? I'll talk to somebody close to one of his victim.
Plus George Zimmerman stopped by police with a gun.
Also, the latest on this Arkansas escaped prisoner still on the run.
And O.J. Simpson's courtroom victory. I'll talk to Kim Goldman. Her brother was killed with O.J.'s ex-wife.
Plus the man who knows a criminal mind. He spent his life on the wrong side of the law.
Also new revelations about a top secret NSA program that can spy on nearly everything you do online, and I mean everything.
And the Nixon you haven't seen until now. Footage hidden for the last 40 years airing right here tomorrow. Tonight I'll talk to the other Nixon, the president's 83-year-old brother, Ed.
I want to begin, though, with Ariel Castro, said to make a statement during his sentencing tomorrow.
CNN's Pamela Brown spoke to Castro's sister today and she joins me now.
Pamela, I just pored through the new documentation that's been released this evening. Very, very disturbing revolutions. Much of it based on diaries from the three poor women held captive by Ariel Castro. Tell me about that. PAMELA BROWN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right. You remember all the counts, more than 900 counts, that Ariel Castro faced and they were very specific with the dates. We're learning now that prosecutors actually used these women's diaries to help them document all the different charges.
According to these documents that the prosecutor's office released today, the women over the past 10 years got through their time in captivity by keeping these diaries, by writing about the abuse they experienced, by writing about their dreams of getting out some day and seeing their families, by writing about being locked in darkrooms.
So really disturbing details and we're not expected to see what those diaries say in court tomorrow during Castro's sentencing, although we could be seeing some physical evidence, as well as photos. In fact, it's supposed to be a pretty ugly tomorrow with some of the evidence that we could be seeing, and very dramatic proceeding tomorrow -- Piers.
MORGAN: Now despite all this, you spoke to his sister, who paints a very different picture of him and thinks that the truth will out.
BROWN: I did. We know now that Castro is expected to speak in court tomorrow. That's according to his attorney and we're hearing from his sister that he's going to be explaining his life and perhaps giving another side of the Ariel Castro that we -- that we know from all the disturbing details we've learned about. But we know that he could be making an apology. That's according to Castro's attorney. That he could be remorseful.
For the first time we've heard in court last Friday. He didn't show much remorse at all. So we could be seeing more of that tomorrow. He's been working on what he's going to say today, his attorney said, and he said it's not overly preplanned, it could be a rather lengthy statement from Ariel Castro tomorrow.
MORGAN: And do we expect any of the victims to either attend or make any kind of statement themselves?
BROWN: Well, Piers, I'm learning from sources that one of the three victims will actually be making a statement here tomorrow, an impact statement. That's -- I should (INAUDIBLE) up by saying she will likely be making a statement. Of course, she could change her mind between now and then and she has every right to do so. But we're hearing from sources that will be Michelle Knight.
And, Piers, this could be somewhat surprising to some because Michelle Knight experienced the worst abuse over the past 10 years according to police reports and sources, but this could be empowering for her and therapeutic in a way to go up and make an impact statement and face her captor head on.
So we'll have to wait and see if that happens. The other two women are expected to be represented by their family members tomorrow but again it's expected to be a long day, at least a few hours long and very dramatic.
MORGAN: And in the end, we don't expect that he will receive anything other than a very, very lengthy prison sentence and will be unlikely to ever come out again, right?
BROWN: Right, this is not discretionary. He agreed that -- to the life in prison without parole plus 1,000 years. So that's not going to change. Basically what the sentencing is tomorrow, Piers, is a way to put it on the record. Put the charges that he's facing on the record so that there is no way that he could ever leave prison ever again. So his fate is pretty much set in stone at this point.
MORGAN: It will be a fascinating day tomorrow. Pamela Brown, thank you very much indeed.
And I want to bring in the reporter who covered this case for nine years. He was inside Gina DeJesus' house the day that she came home.
Lydia Esparra is weekend anchor for WOIO in Cleveland.
Lydia, welcome back to the show. Obviously a big day tomorrow.
LYDIA ESPARRA, WEEKEND ANCHOR, REPORTER, WOIO: Thank you.
MORGAN: A day in many ways I guess for potential closure in the sense this may be the last we see of Ariel Castro once he's done and dusted and sent off to jail. What is the family reaction? You've obviously been close to Gina DeJesus. What is their reaction to all this?
ESPARRA: Well, over the weekend, Felix DeJesus, Gina's dad, he was doing a walk that he has done every year trying to find victims who have been kidnapped, who have been missing, so he's on this walk and he was asked about, you know, hey, the sentencing is coming up, how do you feel? And he just basically said, my family needs to heal. We need to heal. We need to move on. We need to bond as a family.
And Nancy, Gina's mom has always told me that she forgives him, but he does deserve to be punished. So obviously, they are looking for some closure in this case.
MORGAN: I mean, when you read the detail of these documents that have come out, obviously much of it we knew in sort of broad brush strokes. When you actually read the detail -- I spent half an hour earlier reading it -- it is unbelievably depraved and repulsive. These women went through the most appalling ordeal for a decade or more. It's very, very difficult to see how they can make any kind of quick recovery from this.
ESPARRA: Well, surprisingly if you went to the last part of the document, there was a doctor on there that said surprisingly that all three women were in good spirits. They were healing, although it's going to be a long process that he couldn't believe how courageous they were. And when I read this document, I was sick to my stomach because when Gina first disappeared, Nancy, Gina's mom, has always said, my daughter would never run away. She'd never get in a car with a stranger, that somebody who knew her took her. And you read this and clearly, she got in a car with a family friend, just like the mom had predicted.
MORGAN: From all you know from both Gina's side and her family and what you've heard of the others, do any of these young women who've been through this awful ordeal have any kind of sense of this -- they call the Stockholm syndrome where they feel a strange affection to their captor?
ESPARRA: Well, if you listen to any of the court hearings from last week, the prosecutor did come out and say that there was some Stockholm syndrome and also in the report that they released today that the doctor also said that he believes all three girls are experiencing that. Now on the other hand, I know Gina has an incredible family with a huge support system, so does Amanda Berry.
Michelle Knight, she is just -- has been incredible through all this and clearly she has a journey by herself, but I believe the other two families will be assisting her. So if they are suffering that, I don't doubt that it will take awhile to get -- excuse me, get through it, that they would actually be OK because of the support system that they have.
MORGAN: Right. And there is a statement, actually, a handwritten note from Michelle Knight to the lead investigator, I think, "Dear Commander Saucer, officers and staff, you don't know how much I appreciate all your time and work collecting cards and gifts from people to me and the other girls. I'm overwhelmed by the amount of thoughts, love and prayers expressed by the complete strangers. It's comforting. Life is tough. But I'm tougher."
And she does a quote, "Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, she became a butterfly. Thanks. God bless you, Michelle Knight."
A very moving letter there.
ESPARRA: Well, and the things that we don't know about Michelle Knight, we never knew she was missing. Of course we knew Gina was missing because her mother kept searching and then of course Amanda Berry's mother kept searching, and she later died but Michelle's family was never searching for her.
And in this report, it says incredibly she -- I don't know if it was like the glue but she was the one that was doing the doctoring and --
ESPARRA: And if Gina was getting in trouble, she was stepping in to protect her. She became almost their protector. So she is an amazing woman and resilient to all ends.
MORGAN: And she also, from those documents, seems may well have saved the life of Amanda Berry's young baby who nearly died (INAUDIBLE) born.
Lydia Esparra, thank you very much indeed.
ESPARRA: You're welcome.
MORGAN: Now I want to turn to another crime story. We showed you this extraordinary video last night. A daring jailbreak caught on tape. Derrick Estell was being held in the Garland County Detention Center in Arkansas on charges including aggravated robbery, burglary, theft, breaking and entering, and not surprisingly fleeing.
He got an accomplice to distract deputies. Made his escape and is still on the run tonight. Police say he's armed and dangerous and extremely aggressive.
Well, joining me now is a man who says he escaped from prison three times. Michael "The Cat" Hughes is a retired cat burglar.
Michael Hughes, what do you make of this video when you saw it?
MICHAEL "THE CAT" HUGHES, RETIRED CAT BURGLAR: Well, I believe that the deputy made a very vital mistake. This guy was a violent felon. He should not have been left alone. He should not have been crouching with Deputy (INAUDIBLE). He should have been standing up, facing the wall, and he should have had shackles on.
I mean, it was just an opportunity. And he knew. This guy knew that there was a security breach here. So he had planned this. That wasn't a telephone call to call somebody. That was just to get in that position to get out of there as quick as he could.
MORGAN: It does --
HUGHES: He knew.
MORGAN: It does seem -- yes, it does seems quite extraordinary you got this guy who are now describing as extremely dangerous and there he is sitting there casually on the phone, a couple of feet from this desk, which he can just dive straight over.
I mean, it was a most extraordinary breach of security, one you would never imagine could even be possible in these places.
HUGHES: Well, what happens, they get to be friends with the guards, so they will say to the guard, can I use this phone, instead of going back, and the guard will let them. And that's what I think happened here. The guard let him use the phone being a nice guy. He probably just got done maybe with a visit or seeing his attorney.
He was on his way back. He knew -- he knew he'd get out. And again, he should have had shackles on, Piers. He was a violent criminal. He was arrested for aggravated battery. What was he doing in that area with one guard, no shackles? He should have been standing looking at the wall while talking. MORGAN: Michael, a quick question about Ariel Castro. And I know you've got some quite strong views on this. What kind of life will Ariel Castro face in prison, do you think, given the scale, the depravity of his behavior?
HUGHES: Oh, my prediction there will be a conspiracy within the inmates to get him. It's going to be hard to get him because he's going to be in solitary confinement, lock up. He's going to be 23 hours a day in his cell and out. Where they're going to get him, though, and where they get most people they can't get to is poison.
You know, there's a lot of people there and the person who gets Castro is going to be the hero in jail.
And, Piers, I'm not a violent person, but if I saw Castro right there and I had the opportunity and I was in prison, I'd be on him real quick.
MORGAN: Michael Hughes, thank you very much.
George Zimmerman is back in the news tonight. The man who's found not guilty of murder in the death of Trayvon Martin was stopped this weekend for speeding in northern Texas and he had a gun with him. But police in Texas released dashcam video of the incident. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm going to go back and check you routinely. The reason you were stopped is because of speed. OK? I need you to slow down a little bit for me, and as long as you don't have any warrants, we'll cut you loose with a warning. OK? Just take it easy. Go ahead and shut your glove compartment and don't play with your firearm, OK?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: The Zimmerman family released a statement tonight saying, I quote, "Our family receives innumerable death threats on a daily basis. We will continue to take our security and privacy very seriously and go to great lengths to ensure our safety in accordance with the law. Despite the truth coming to light in the court of law, persistent circulation of misinformation and speculation continues to put us all at risk, especially George, speculation as to any family members' whereabouts, other by the press or by individuals is irresponsible and counterproductive."
We'll have more on this a little later in the show.
When we come back, another big crime story. A courtroom victory today for O.J. Simpson. Why Ron Goldman's sister Kim says it's unsettling. She's here with advice to the victims of other high- profile crimes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
O.J. SIMPSON, DEFENDANT: They told me what was expected of me here, and I gave them my word that I would try to be or would be the best prisoner they've ever had here, and I think for the most part I've kept my word on that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: O.J. Simpson won parole today but not his freedom, not yet anyway. He's granted parole on some of the charges relating to his 2008 armed robbery convictions. But he still has to serve at least four more years since his sentence is a consecutive.
Kim Goldman's brother Ron was killed with O.J.'s ex-wife, Nicole. The Goldman family says it's unsettling that O.J. might be released sometime soon. And Kim Goldman joins me now.
Kim, what is your reaction to this? Obviously O.J. Simpson is facing a long time behind bars. Now he'll be out within four years.
KIM GOLDMAN, RON GOLDMAN'S SISTER: Yes, well, you know, we always knew that the option of parole was coming. I think I just wasn't prepared. The reality of it is different than the dreaming of it. So, you know, this is what -- this is due process, and as much as I would love to see him, you know, brought away in there that may not be what happens, and it's hard to hear his voice, it's hard to see him on the screen. I know that he could be walking amongst us again in a couple of years.
MORGAN: Does that make you feel fearful to you and your family? Do you still see him as a potential danger and threat to you?
GOLDMAN: Not in a physical way. I never really had any feeling of danger from him. It's really more the emotional torment of him being able to cause as much ruckus and chaos as he does just by his celebrity, you know, and the high profile component of our case. Every move he makes garners media attention. So it's that kind of emotional torment that I -- that is a stressor for us.
MORGAN: The Nevada Parole Board said in a statement that it reached its decision based on Simpson's, quote, "institutional conduct, participation in programs, lack of prior conviction history, and that he has consecutive sentences yet to serve." They basically call him a model inmate.
How did you feel when you heard that description?
GOLDMAN: Well, you know, I guess the bailiffs are doing a good job there in the correctional facility that he's not being able to commit any more crimes. I mean, the truth is, I always imagine that he was -- you know, being the mayor of the jail and it's bugged me, and -- but I don't know.
I mean, I guess if that's part of the criteria to determine if somebody is eligible for parole, then that's what it is. I have to respect and trust the judgment of the Parole Board but emotionally it doesn't make me all that happy.
MORGAN: We had earlier report about Ariel Castro, who obviously this appalling kidnapper holding these women captive for so long. A very, very different story than anything you've been involved with but the similarity, I guess, is how you get over any kind of horror, any kind of atrocity.
What advice would you give these young women who've been through a decade of hell like this?
GOLDMAN: I mean, I was listening, I was getting teary-eyed once you're reading the story of that letter from Michelle Knight. Those women have a long road ahead of them but it sounds like they are surrounded by a lot of love and support and resources.
Doing the Victim Impact Statement is incredibly important and powerful. I'm jealous, I never got the opportunity to do that. But, you know, they, too, they are forever going to be connected with Ariel Castro and as many times as he gets brought up in the news it will be a reminder to them, and I just -- I hope that they find comfort in knowing that, again, a country is supporting them.
You know, the truth is, victims and survivors go through this on a daily basis. The parole setting, you know, the re-victimization. We have to be very sensitive to what we all go through on a daily basis and there's no way of knowing how it's going to impact our daily being so.
MORGAN: If you'd been able to do a victim statement to O.J. Simpson, what would you have said to him?
GOLDMAN: Oh, you'd have to bleep me for the next 45 minutes.
You know, we wrote a book, our family, a handful of years ago, "His Name is Ron," and each of us wrote what we would have said in a Victim Impact Statement had we been given the choice. He destroyed our life and he took my brother's future and he took all of the hopes and dreams that my brother was entitled to.
And that impacted and changed the landscape of our family. And I resent him for that. I hate him for that. And I wish him nothing good and so, again, if he is granted parole, I hope he lays low and I hope he stops committing crimes, but if he does, I hope they lock him right back up.
But until then, we will just watch the clock and, you know, try to keep our heads down and stay focused on the important things, which are victim's issues and doing good work in the advocacy world.
MORGAN: Kim Goldman, thank you very much indeed for joining me here.
GOLDMAN: Thanks, Piers.
MORGAN: Coming up next, the top secret program that can capture your every move online. This latest revelation about NSA surveillance, Glenn Greenwald, who broke the story today joins me next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EDWARD SNOWDEN, NSA LEAKER: I sit at my desk certainly had the authorities to wiretap anyone from you or your accountant to a federal judge, to even the president if I had a personal e-mail.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: NSA leaker Edward Snowden speaking to "The Guardian." Today we have new revelations about a program that could back up his claim.
"Guardian" columnist Glenn Greenwald is reporting on tool called XKeyscore which allows NSA analysts to search e-mails, social media and even browsing history of Internet uses without prior authorization. And Glenn Greenwald joins me now.
Glenn, another bombshell revelation in many ways, one that you could argue if it'd come at the start could have caused even more kafuffle that your original stories.
What -- why is it so serious? Tell me about XKeyscore in a simple way that explains why you think this is such a serious situation.
GLENN GREENWALD, COLUMNIST, THE GUARDIAN: First of all, Piers, the database is that this program accesses is storing 40 billion Internet records every 30 days, essentially trying to store into its systems all e-mails, all online chats, all Internet browsing that it can possibly get its hands on.
An incredible power to vest in the state. But then on top of that, the program is designed to, as it says, collects, quote, "Nearly everything a user does on the Internet. So it allows -- it allows an analyst sitting at his or her desk with no oversight, nobody watching over their shoulder, be able to enter an e-mail address, enter an IP address, use keywords and then pull up a content of e-mails, people's browsing history, what Web sites they've gone to, what Google searches they've entered, what kind of Microsoft Word documents they've sent.
Essentially the entire range of activities that people engage in on the Internet, it's intended to be a ubiquitous spying tool and that's what it's been constructed into.
MORGAN: Now I want to play what Jay Carney at the White House said about this in today's briefing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JAY CARNET, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Allegations of widespread, unchecked analyst access to NSA collection data are false. Access to all of NSA's analytic tools is limited to only those personnel who require access for their assigned tasks. And there are multiple technical manual and supervisory checks and balances within the system to prevent those who don't have access from achieving that access.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: I mean, I suppose my reaction to that when I heard it was well, it's all very well but Edward Snowden wasn't exactly high ranking and yet he managed to easily access all this stuff so almost by default you would say well, that can't be true. It must be loads of people that can access this stuff.
GREENWALD: Right, I mean -- Edward Snowden was not only able to access it, he was authorized to access it. He was trained on how to use this program which is why he had the documents that he was able to give us and tell us all about the program and has experiences with it.
You're talking about thousands and thousands of people, not just people employed directly for the NSA but also people who are employed at private contractors who are deployed to the NSA like Mr. Snowden. And what's most disturbing about it, Piers, is they can sit at their desk and there is no pre-search approval process, not even a supervisor within the NSA before the search is process looks at what they're doing, let alone a court, which means that they are completely free to engage in all kinds of unconstrained searches.
There are legal limits on what they can do when it only involves a U.S. person, although lots of U.S. persons' communications are in these databases but there's no technological constraint and no real after-the-fact, robust auditing process, and there's all kinds of evidence now emerging because of these disclosures of abuse.
There's lots of proof in history that if you allow this kind of surveillance without limits, it will be wildly abused and I think that's why even in Washington these stories are now making such an impact.
MORGAN: Glenn, stay with me. I want to bring in now James Risen. He's a Pulitzer prize-winning journalist for "The New York Times." He knows all about question of the NSA and freedom of the press. A federal appeals court has ruled he must testify in the government's case against Jeffrey Sterling, a former CIA official charged of leaking secrets about a CIA effort to disrupt Iran's nuclear weapons program. He can't discuss specifics of that ongoing case.
Also joining me is CNN's senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.
James Risen, what do you make of his latest exposure by Glenn Greenwald -- by Edward Snowden in terms of the kind of (INAUDIBLE) that we're talking about? JAMES RISEN, THE NEW YORK TIMES: I think it's a really interesting story and it, you know, adds to kind of a mosaic that's developed that shows, you know, the extent of the NSA's growth as a -- you know, kind of the infrastructure of the surveillance state that's grown really since 9/11.
I think this is all an extension of what began under the Bush administration and then what's kind of codified in FISA Amendments Act in 2008 and the Patriot Act, and you're seeing kind of the growth from there, you know, all directions of the exploitation of what they call in Silicon Valley big data.
MORGAN: Jeffrey Toobin, how shocked should people be because on the one hand, the public will go, oh, my god, this is outrageous. At the same time, anyone's wallet, when they bring out all their credit cards, all their shopping details, anything online, you sort of -- if you think about it, you're already giving up a lot of information that we should be shocked about now.
TOOBIN: And -- and things are read. I mean, if I send you a Gmail, you know, from my personal account to your personal account and I say, you know, let's play golf this weekend, I -- Google will read that e-mail and try to sell me golf clubs.
So you know...
TOOOBIN: ...automatically. A lot of what's going on is that kind of automatic...
MORGAN: The difference -- the difference here, though, is you have authorized analysts, and according to -- to Glenn Greenwald, thousands potentially, who can do more than that, that I should get into this.
TOOOBIN: Can -- can I just ask -- I'd like to ask Glenn a question about this program. Is this just for domestic e-mails or -- or is this for international e-mails or -- or both?
GREENWALD: Both. And the reason is is that under the law, in order for the NSA to ease drop, to target an American citizen for surveillance, they need first to go to the FISA court and get approval. And of course the FISA court always gives that they're rubber stamped in court.
But even for international calls, when an American citizen talks to somebody outside of the United States, those e-mails, those telephone calls, that activity is completely accessible by the NSA without a warrant. And on top of that, the NSA makes mistakes all the time.
It's very difficult to know what the national origin is of communication. So all kinds of purely domestic calls get put into this database as well. And so as the ACLU (inaudible) said (ph) in our piece, huge numbers of American's communication are swept up by what the NSA calls foreign surveillance and all warrants all the calls (ph) supervision (ph).
TOOOBIN: And -- but I think -- but I think, Glenn, I mean, this is an important clarification that this is primarily targeted at international e-mails, not purely domestic e-mails. Now, as -- as Glenn points out, there may be mistakes.
There may be a lot of access (ph)...
MORGAN: But we have to trust people here, right? I mean, we have to trust thousands of people so they're not going to abuse it. Edward Snowden, some would say, abused it, others would say blew the whistle.
But he had access to this and put in the public domain. Somebody with a more malicious mind who happens to have that authorization could cause serious damage here...
RISEN: You can't -- you can't -- the other thing, though, is you can't...
MORGAN: Glenn, sorry.
RISEN: ...you can't separate out...
MORGAN: Oh, sorry, James (ph).
RISEN: ...yes, I'm sorry. You can't separate out domestic from international that cleanly. And that's one of the -- one of the kind of statements that the Obama administration has made repeatedly that they can make these clean kind of divides. And that's just not true.
MORGAN: What was really interesting today, I thought, their (ph) international intelligence, James Clapper released three previously classified documents about the government's vault collection programs.
I mean, that to me, Jeffrey Toobin, says that they are moving to a more transparent world. And the only reason they're doing that is because of Edward Snowden and Glenn Greenwald.
TOOOBIN: Well, it's certainly true that it is -- that -- that there has been public discussion of this. And that's -- that's a -- that's a good thing. And look, my hats off to Glenn for investigative reporting.
I still think Edward Snowden is a criminal and should not have done what he did. But I do think the -- the -- this discussion we're having is a good thing.
RISEN: We wouldn't be having this discussion if it wasn't for him.
TOOOBIN: That's true. RISEN: Why do you think -- why do you think -- I mean, that's the thing I don't understand about the climate in Washington these days is that people want to have debates on television and elsewhere. But then you want to throw the people who started the debates in jail.
MORGAN: But -- but tell me this, James, because I mean, you've been involved in this a long time. Here is -- here is the dilemma that I face just as (ph) -- as a journalist all my life, I'm looking at this and thinking, this is brilliant investigative journalism by Glenn.
When it comes to Edward Snowden, I'm asking myself where does the line get drawn? What you can't have is a license for every single person that has access or authorization to classified material just spewing it into the public ether on a whim.
You can't have that. So with modern technology being so all (ph) in testing, where do you draw the line?
RISEN: Well, what part of the -- what part of this -- what part of this don't you want to talk about?
MORGAN: I wonder what...
RISEN: What part of which document that's come out don't you want to talk about?
MORGAN: I suppose it's the specifics of some of the programs. Do you feel comfortable as an American citizen that the enemy potentially know too much about what the American government can and can't do?
RISEN: I can tell you, I've been an investigative reporter for a long time. And almost always, the government says that when you write a story, it's going to cause damage.
And then they can never back it up. They say that about everything and that it's like the boy who cried wolf. It's getting old.
TOOOBIN: But -- but isn't -- isn't it also...
GREENWALD: Piers, can I address that? Piers?
MORGAN: Yes, Glenn -- yes, Glenn.
GREENWALD: Let me just say one word about -- about Mr. Snowden. There are ways that if you have access to classified information, you could just spew it out all into the ether which is the phrase that you used. He could have uploaded it onto the internet in mass.
He could have sold it to a foreign adversary. He could have passed to a foreign government. He could have given it to Wikileaks and asked them to just publish it all.
He did none of that. He came to established media organizations and said, please be extremely careful and judicious. Go through these documents.
Publish only what is in the public that my fellow citizens should know about...
TOOOBIN: Oh, give me...
GREENWALD: ...and withhold the information that can cause harm. And that's what we've done.
MORGAN: OK, Jeffrey?
TOOOBIN: Glenn, he's gone to China and then he's gone to Russia, two of the most repressive countries in the world and they -- you don't think they have now have access to all that material? He somehow kept it secret from them?
GREENWALD: No, they don't, Jeffrey. And the reason he had to go to -- the reason he had to go to Russia and China is because the United States is filled with Jeffrey Toobins who want to take people who come forward and -- and -- and bring transparency to the government and throw them into a cage for decades and disappear them from our public discourse.
TOOOBIN: That's right. And he wants to go to China...
GREENWALD: ...the United States...
TOOOBIN: ...and he wants to go to China and Russia...
GREENWALD: Hong Kong -- Hong Kong -- Hong Kong.
TOOOBIN: ...we charge (ph) deacons of freedom -- oh, Hong Kong, right, which is -- which is independent of China...
TOOOBIN: ...come on. I mean, come on, Glenn.
GREENWALD: The reason that he's there is not because he thinks they're beacons of freedom. The reason he's there is because as Daniel Ellsberg said in an op-ed in the "Washington Post" few weeks ago, the United States is no longer a safe place for whistleblowers and that therefore said Mr. Ellsberg, he was absolutely right to leave the United States because it's the only way that he could participate in a debate that he started and avoid persecution in the United States which is what happens to a whistleblower in Hong Kong, in Russia because he thinks it's their lovely society.
(CROSSTALK) MORGAN: OK, let -- let me give the final word to James Risen here because James, again, I would simple say to you this, is there a limit, though? Is there a limit to what kind of material people with the kind of access that Edward Snowden had should be allowed to put out there before it crosses a line?
RISEN: Oh, of course, there's always limits on that. And that's one of the things that you do as a -- as a reporter, as Glenn was just discussing, is you kind of make those decisions as you go along.
All I'm trying to say is that the government always likes to say that huge national damage -- national security damage is being done. And then, you know, then they can never really prove that.
The republic has lasted for over 200 years with a free press. And I -- you know, it's -- it's just -- you know, all I know is that every time I've done stories like this, they say that I've caused enormous damage to the country and then nothing happens.
MORGAN: James Risen, Jeffrey Toobin and Glenn Greenwald, thank you, all, very much indeed.
Coming next, talking of the subject matter that Nixon footage that hasn't been seen in 40 years, Nixon as right ahead (ph) tomorrow night. But tonight, I'll talk to the other Nixon, the president's youngest brother, Ed. He joins me next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(UNKNOWN): Anthony (ph) was the machine. And I knew my place. It really reflected a lot about Richard Nixon, the degree to which he wanted things controlled.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: The documentary on Nixon which airs right here tomorrow night. The film uses super eight movie, shot by Richard Nixon's top aids to show a different side of his administration. Joining me now is the other Nixon, Ed Nixon, Richard Nixon's youngest and last surviving brother.
Mr. Nixon, thank you very much indeed for joining me. I -- I watched this documentary and was riveted by it. But I was nowhere near as close to the action as obviously you were.
What is your reaction to it having seen it?
ED NIXON, RICHARD NIXON'S BROTHER: The -- the film that we see tomorrow night is a -- it's a good collection of -- of movies that were easily obtained from the national archives. And, you know, what you've done to put it together was Penny Lane (ph) is it -- she was putting things in there that were really --shouldn't have been but there's lots of footage there that you can draw your own conclusions. My own view is that that -- that goes just fine to show the actual factors that occurred, candid as they were, and then you fill in the commentary and what not to make a story of it. But what I'm really interested in is the story that is still coming out and is not yet finished.
And I'm thinking it will overtake anybody's effort to do a documentary of this sort that this appears to be. I want to compliment you on trying to get this out there because it is a lot of excellent candid footage and a lot of scenes I've never seen.
But when you come right down to it, the -- the centennials that were celebrating this year is most important to me. Nixon was born in January 9th of this year.
And he was hardly covered by anyone there except that we did get some good, good shots. Meanwhile, though, I'm looking at your documentary, "Our Nixon" and I'm not sure it's ours.
I think it's -- my Nixon is -- is completely different, of course but that's because I'm a witness...
MORGAN: Well -- well, tell me, I'm interested in this -- I'm interested in this, Ed. You're -- you're 17 years younger than -- than your brother, Richard. What do you think...
MORGAN: ...is the biggest misconception about him that maybe persist to this day given your knowledge of him?
NIXON: Well, for the most part, right now, I see most of what's been told about Richard Nixon has been with some -- with a prejudice going through a filter. And these days, today I watch -- I watch C- SPAN to see what the news is.
And then I listen to the people that try to filter what you hear. And I smile because it's really good to check the real facts from the eyewitness rather than to jump to a conclusion that somebody already has -- has brought (ph) up.
MORGAN: Well -- well, tell me -- tell me -- tell me, what you personally think the real Richard Nixon was like compared to perhaps to the perceived image of him these days.
NIXON: He was a good-humored mentor to me. He was really my teacher. When you think about it, I had two fathers and another one that came along with it, with my brother, Don.
But he -- he was always interested in everyone's opinion -- listen, listen and then think about it and then respond with something appropriate to what we needed to hear. My whole life was influenced by Richard Nixon from the time I was two years old on that I could remember all of that.
And I can't get away from the --the notion that I wrote into my book that so much has been missed because you haven't paid any attention. Even the great historian that wrote a three-volume biography of Richard Nixon never interviewed anybody in the family. That's not the way you do a biography.
So I looked from this -- the facts from the real people and then we get into the -- to the interpretations that each just (ph) should be making from -- for his own beliefs and his own set of mind.
MORGAN: Well, one of the -- one of the most -- one of the most candid interviews he ever gave was of course to David Frost, my British interviewing colleague. And David Frost secured...
MORGAN: ...this famous apology to the American people. But did -- did Richard ever privately apologized to you, as his brother, for -- for what he had done?
NIXON: He didn't need to. For me, he did what he -- what he was called to do as president of the United States, as leader of the free world, really. And he did his best.
He laid everything he had into it. And when you think about what he didn't get to complete because of the nonsense that occurred in 1972 and '73, he wasn't able to complete it.
Well, we're -- we're setting out now to do the legacy on what were those dreams that he had? How many did he achieve? Far more than many of his predecessors ever would have dreamed of doing with Congress against him.
And he got it done. And he was praised for doing that. So take a look at it from the -- well, what do we say, British has talent so does -- so does America in its own leadership.
MORGAN: And absolutely, it (ph) does.
NIXON: By the way, you were very good on that, Morgan. You were -- you were very good on that. You were a good entertainer.
MORGAN: On "America's Got Talent"?
MORGAN: Maybe we should have had the Nixon family on. It would have been quite a good act.
NIXON: Oh, we'd have been smiling. We'd have been -- we'd have made some smiles for you.
MORGAN: Ed Nixon, it was great to talk to you. I think that whatever people think of your brother, he was president of his -- of his great country. And the documentary tomorrow is fascinating and as you say, contains much new material.
So I urge everyone to watch it and make up their own mind. But it's been great to talk to you. Thank you very much.
NIXON: Thank you. I'll be looking for a real documentary one of these days.
MORGAN: Maybe I'll make it with you. Anyway, "Our Nixon," which is a real documentary airs tomorrow night right here on CNN, 9:00.
Coming up, George Zimmerman caught packing heat with the pedal to the metal. What was he thinking? That and more -- it's a nice break in the news.
MORGAN: Well, a break in the news tonight, starting with George Zimmerman and flashy lights in his rear-view mirror, talking (ph) about that. Marc Lamont Hill, Professor of Columbia University, is with us live. Also Republican pollster, Kristen Soltis.
Welcome back, Kristen.
SOLTIS: Thanks for having me.
MORGAN: You're far -- Vice President of The Winston group. Now, let's talk George Zimmerman.
Marc Lamont Hill, I don't feel comfortable about George Zimmerman wandering around aimlessly in his car with a loaded firearm. Sorry, I don't.
HILL: Neither do I. I don't want him carrying anything, you know, with a piece (ph). But -- but the truth is, he's entitled to it, number one.
Number two, he didn't do anything wrong.
MORGAN: But tell me, is he entitled to it?
HILL: By law, he is.
MORGAN: I know -- I know by law. But if you actually end up killing an unarmed teenager, isn't that the very least it should happen to be that maybe you don't get -- given back your gun?
HILL: Not if you're found not guilty. I mean, because then you're essentially being found guilty for something anyway, you know, by proxy. And the other part of this is, if anyone might need self- defense right now, you could make the case that it's George Zimmerman.
Everybody hates him because he killed Trayvon Martin. I'm not a George Zimmerman fan. I think he's a sick individual. But he was found not guilty.
And he's entitled to that firearm.
MORGAN: Kristen Soltis, are you comfortable with George Zimmerman wandering around with this gun?
SOLTIS: I agree with Marc. I think that if -- if anybody wants protection right now, like you mentioned earlier in the show, his family says he's been receiving death threats. So and it's not like he was wearing it on him.
They said it was in the glove compartment. So it's not like he was out looking for trouble. I think George Zimmerman wants to stay off the radar as much as possible.
MORGAN: He's not doing very well, is he? Anyway, let's move on. I have a -- a view about it. But anyway, let's move on.
Alex Rodriguez may be banned for life, Marc Lamont Hill, from major league baseball. Eight others may be suspended. This is more drug abuse obviously.
I think pretty extraordinary, wouldn't it, if A-Rod gets banned for life?
HILL: Yes, but it will be extraordinary, but it will be necessary as well. A-Rod's been lying from the beginning. Everyone made fun of Jose Canseco.
Everybody said Jose Canseco was a troublemaker over a decade ago. But just about everything Jose Canseco, he's told us has turned out to be true. A-Rod had his life in the beginning.
He had an opportunity to get in front of this thing, like many other people would do. He had an opportunity to offer his mea culpas.
Instead, he's lied, lied, lied. And now, he's essentially obstructed justice for the MLB. He'll be out of career now.
MORGAN: Kristen, are you a baseball fan?
SOLTIS: I am much more of a football fan, where -- where issues about performance-enhancing substances are not -- not nearly as prevalent. But football is not also not as much of a stats kind of game as baseball is, which is why this is such a big issue and which is why it's -- it's important for people who are violating these rules to be out of the sport.
MORGAN: I mean, I think (inaudible), let me change (ph) this, when the punishment is so extreme that it deters people from even thinking at it. At the moment, you have got almost every sport riddled with cheats, whether it's sprinting at the Olympics --
HILL: Cheating is overstating is, though?
MORGAN: It is cheating. HILL: Who are they cheating? 99 percent of the league was taking them.
MORGAN: So what?
HILL: So who are you cheating?
MORGAN: So 99 percent of the people in Central Park are mugging people. Is that fine?
HILL: No, because by definition, it's still mugging. But cheating means a competitive advantage. If everybody is doing it, it's not--.
MORGAN: That's ridiculous.
HILL: Are you kidding me?
MORGAN: Because they're all pumped with steroids, therefore it's not cheating?
HILL: It's a level playing field, yes.
MORGAN: No, nonsense.
HILL: And I would even take it a step further.
MORGAN: So you then would defend Lance Armstrong?
HILL: Yes, I would say that Lance Armstrong is sort of being hung out to dry as the exception, when in fact most cyclists were doing it.
MORGAN: Even though he's a disgusting little cheat.
MORGAN: What about the guy who came in 17th who turns out was the only clean one?
HILL: He'll sleep well at night with his 17th place trophy.
MORGAN: Kirsten Soltis, I want to talk to you about the ethical and moral nature of what Marc Lamont Hill just stunned me by saying. The fact that everybody else is cheating makes it absolutely not cheating?
HILL: And the league sanctioned it. Let's not forget that.
SOLTIS: I think -- let's talk about why they ban these substances. They don't ban these substances because they make you great athletes, they ban these substances because they are really horrible for you, and they want to dissuade athletes from doing horrible things to their body in order to get ahead. You shouldn't have to take something that will destroy your body.
HILL: Then why not ban tobacco, cigarettes and alcohol?
SOLTIS: Why would anybody do those things as a way to get ahead? I don't think that alcohol is helping anybody win the Tour de France.
HILL: So it is about competitive advantage. You were saying it was to protect the athletes' bodies.
SOLTIS: Competitive advantage in combination with the athlete doing something destructive to their body in order to gain a competitive advantage.
MORGAN: Anyway, the point is, it's against the rules, it's cheating, and if they get caught, just because the others are doing it too, it does not make it less of a cheat, I'm sorry.
HILL: But you're missing the point. Major League Baseball --
HILL: Major League Baseball made a parade for Jose Canseco - sorry, for Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa.
MORGAN: You're not going to persuade me. I'm going to leave you there. You are missing the point.
HILL: Maybe if I put it in soccer terms.
MORGAN: They are slimy little cheats and should be driven out of the sport. That is it, Kirsten, Marc, than you both very much. That is all for us tonight. CNN's documentary on Nixon airs right here tomorrow night at 9:00 pm. We'll be back Friday night for an hour with Jeff Corwin, some sharks, an alligator and a python. You won't see that anywhere else on cable news at 9:00 p.m. on Friday night. Anderson Cooper starts in just a few moments.