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Ariel Castro Locked Away Forever

Aired August 1, 2013 - 21:00   ET



DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, after 11 years in hell, raped, beaten and starved. A victim stands up to her captor.

MICHELLE KNIGHT: I will live on, you will die a little every day as you think about the 11 years and atrocities you inflicted on us.

PINSKY: He responds.

ARIEL CASTRO: I`m not a monster: I`m a normal person. I`m just sick. I have an addiction.

PINSKY: My behavioral bureau breaks it all down. Let`s get started.


PINSKY: Good evening.

My co-host is a Samantha Schacher, host of "Pop Trigger" on the Young Turks Network.

We will be hearing Ariel Castro deny and blame -- we got so much to get into tonight. This case is unbelievable.

We`ll also see the courageous woman who shamed him in court today before he was locked away for life. She spoke for herself and the other captive whose had been held as sex slaves by this -- make no mistake about it -- this monster.



KNIGHT: And I would like to tell you what it was like for me. I missed my son every day. I wondered if I would ever see him again. He was only 2 1/2 years old when I was taken. Days never got shorter. Days turned into nights. Nights turned into days. Years turned into eternity.

I knew nobody cared about me. You took 11 years of my life away. And I have got it back. I spent 11 years in hell.

Now your hell is just beginning. I have overcome all this that happened. But you`ll face hell for eternity.

From this moment on, I won`t let you define me or affect who I am. You will live -- I will live on, you will die a little every day. I am finally being heard and it`s liberating.

Thank you all. I love you. God bless you.


PINSKY: Michelle was held longer than all the others. She was impregnated by Castro multiple times. He abused her in order to induce abortions.

Sam, I know, I see the disgust on your face. What do you think?

SCHACHER: He`s an absolute monster -- a poor excuse of a human being and I could not believe he made excuses today in court.

PINSKY: We will get into that.

But, first, HLN`s Jane Velez-Mitchell on the phone.

Jane, what have you got?

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST (via telephone): Listen, this was a case study in the criminal mind. And how do you define a criminal mind? A man who cannot responsibility for his own actions even when confronted the chains that he used to chain these women, the poles in his basement and turn his basement into a dungeon and turn these women into sex slaves. He`s still rationalizing, justifying, minimizing and trying to paint it as, oh, harmonious -- and the audacity to say these women asked for sex with me when he kidnapped them and held them as sex slaves.

It really is a case study in the criminal mind and we need to take the opportunity to look at the criminal mind for what it is so when we see somebody behaving in this fashion and showing these signs we can run in the other direction.

PINSKY: Absolutely, Jean. And not only does he have so little understanding of emotions, he also can`t read behavior. He also said in court today that, look at the girls, they are out partying, they are having a good time. They weren`t tortured. They are fine. They are fine.

Held in captivity -- I get nauseated by this. It`s really something else.

Let`s bring in the behavior bureau.

I`ve got criminologist and attorney, Casey Jordan, host of "Wives with Knives" on investigation Discovery; attorney Lauren Lake, judge on the new paternity show, "Paternity Court" is the name of the new show; sex therapist Chris Donaghue, host of "Bad Sex" on Logo; and criminal investigator Danine Manette, author of "Ultimate Betrayal".

Casey, the judge says Castro has extreme narcissism. I suspect that he does but it`s something more.

Tell us about that.

CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Well, I really liked this judge for calling him out on all of his minimizing language, all of his denial. I mean, the bottom line is, it`s a little simplistic to say he`s narcissistic. My problem is that in psychology, just in the English language in general, there are not enough vocabulary words for the whole spectrum of denial, if you will.

You know, you got denial of I don`t look good in this shirt and you got denial, what I call the pall of denial, Dr. Drew, where a person is so self-brainwashed about their innocence and minimizing, well, this is just a big understanding, I`m sick, I`m just misunderstood -- that we really don`t have the right vocabulary in psychology to describe that level of self- brainwashing.

It`s just something -- oh, my God, oh, my God, oh, my God.

PINSKY: And the word comes to mind to me when somebody thinks like that is depravity.

Chris, he used what might be sexual addiction as an excuse. Tell me about your thoughts on that?

CHRIS DONAGHUE, SEX THERAPIST: I worked extensively for a decade with people that struggled with sexual compulsivity and you do not see behaviors like this. This is something that`s definitely above and beyond sex addiction. I`m sure that there`s an issue with the compulsivity and he keeps talking about pornography.

But we`re definitely talking about a psyche that`s far sicker than that, because there`s a lot of anti-social in here. No awareness of boundaries. No awareness of his impact on other people. And people like that, we have to wrap police tape around them because they`re not safe to be out in the world.

PINSKY: They`re not, but they are out in the world, and I think people are being critical of them making an issue of this in the public with the television cameras being in there. I think it`s a public service.

Castro says the pressure of raping and torturing the girls was hard, very difficult and then he apologized then he blames the victims and then defends himself. Take a look at this. Unbelievable.


CASTRO: I`m not a monster. I`m a normal person. I`m just sick. I have an addiction. Just like an alcoholic has an addiction. Alcoholics cannot control their addiction. That`s what I can`t control my addiction, your honor.

That I would come home and beat her, beat them, those are totally wrong, your honor, because like I said before, I am not a violent person. I know what I did is wrong, but I am not a violent person. I simply kept them there without them being able to leave.


PINSKY: Danine, I know this kind of thinking drives you to distraction. What are your thoughts?

DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: It`s so disturbing to me. What disturbs me more than just his apparent delusional behavior.

PINSKY: Not delusional, let`s be clear. It`s not delusional. He`s not psychiatrically ill. This is how his brain works. This is what believes.

MANETTE: The way he`s thinking. What disturbs me more than that he`s continuing to attack his victims. He`s continuing to abuse them. He`s continuing to insult them and offend them and do things to hurt them.

He even looked over at Michelle at one point, trying to make eye contact with her. I`ve seen this happen in cases where we have sex trafficking dealing with pimps in the courtroom and being testified against by the prostitutes, these young girls that they moved into prostitution.

And they are so angry they feel as you`re being disloyal to them. They took care of you. And they helped you. And look what you`re doing them.

It is just so disgusting.

PINSKY: All right. Lauren, I know you`re wound up like a top. But he was betrayed by these girls. Go at it.

LAKE: Can you tell? I have no psychology terms, I have no legal terms. This sicko fool has a lot of nerve. I`m so angry with the way he sat in court today with that casual talk as if he was giving commentary on his own life like we wanted to know without apologizing genuinely showing remorse and we know under the law he has the right to speak.

But you know what, honestly, Dr. Drew, when we look at someone like this that I felt almost was kind of feeling himself a little bit -- let me explain to the world what is wrong with me. I`m not a monster.

Oh, shut up and sit down and go to jail -- which is exactly where you belong and where you will stay.

PINSKY: And, Casey, thank God the judge put it that simply. I mean, it`s his version of reality begs no alternative. He`s not defined a monster because he didn`t act out violently. Therefore, he`s not a monster.

Casey, help people understand how you can pick up this kind of person walking amongst us today. They can be charming. As he said himself I got a job. I work find. I raised these four kids in a dungeon.

But, anyway, so they can be amongst us and they can be quite entertaining sometimes even.

JORDAN: Absolutely. And I hate to break the news to you, but you cannot walk down the street and see this person clearly. It takes time because a predator has no end of patience to what their game is. They will wait until they find the right person.

So there`s no substitute for getting to know somebody through time. The length of time is the true test. And if you meet somebody and you automatically don`t like them, that`s a huge red flag. Trust your gut on that because that could be their borderline personality disorders, their false self presenting home to you to seduce you to trust them kind of peeking through.

So, just trust that little voice inside of you and there`s no substitute for time.

PINSKY: Although some people so to speak like sociopaths, they are entertained by them.

Chris, the thing I always is if somebody does have a sex addiction, let`s not minimize the importance of that disorder -- get help before you harm somebody, because once you do, all bets are off. The legal system is now onboard.

DONAGHUE: Yes. Absolutely.

We`re talking about stimulation seeking via sexuality. And that`s something that can definitely escalate. You`re not going to get necessarily the same level of sexual stimulation from the same repeated behavior. And that`s where we see people with the compulsivity or an addiction, always trying to push the bar, and expand it a little bit more, to get a little bit higher, and more stimulation.

And with a person like this who shows a complete lack of empathy and no boundaries, yes, someone like this needs a lot of help. Anyone that feels compulsivity of impulsivity around sexuality needs some help, because sexuality is one of those things that tend to bring a lot of negative consequences in our life if it`s not dealt with appropriately.

PINSKY: Well, it`s acted out on another people.

Danine, you want to comment here.

MANETTE: Dr. Drew, do you really buy this sex addiction thing? To me it seems it`s more a crime of anger and power like a rapist. You know, that`s pretty much -- I`m thinking he wanted to control these women and just, you know, have anger and power over them.

PINSKY: I think it`s multiplicity of things. It`s almost -- I worry that even talk about sex addiction in the context of this man, because that is such a nominal piece of how outlandish this guy is.

Casey, do you agree with me on that? I think what might have been happening with him he knew he would act out on lots of women, lots of children, rather, and he thought, well, I`ll just bring these four in, I just save them for my impulse.

JORDAN: Yes. He wanted sex on a shelf for his compulsive sex addiction. One of the most offensive things he said it`s like any other addiction, like an alcoholic can`t control themselves.

How many of us know dozens, hundreds of people who are in recovery, who have voluntary sought the help they needed, worked the program and stayed way from their addiction. It`s a choice. You can choose o get the help you want, or you can chose to avoid it and keep your sex on the shelf down in the basement.

He did not own his character. It`s a character flaw not an illness that he has.

DONAGHUE: There`s an irrelevance to that, because regardless of what you want to call it and how you want to diagnose it, we still have to hold them accountable to the current behavior that --

PINSKY: That`s right. I worry that we even talk about it in context of this man. That is exactly right. It`s an insult to people that have addiction, because there are plenty of people, have it and don`t do horrible things. Many people, have it, and get well. We`re talking about something other here with this guy.

Next up, Ariel Castro`s bizarre, defiant and outrageous statements, we will bring them back to the behavior bureau.

And later, she was held captive in an underground for more than two weeks, a kidnapping and abuse survivor with her thoughts on Castro and his victims.

We`ll be right back.



CASTRO: I seen Gina, and in the media, she looks normal. She acts normal. A person that`s been tortured just does not act normal. They would like act withdrawn and everything. On the contrary, they`re the opposite. She`s happy. The victims are happy. I haven`t seen much of Michelle because Michelle, since Day One, no one missed her. I never saw (INAUDIBLE). I feel that the FBI let these girls down.


PINSKY: Oh, my goodness. I`m back with my co-host.

Samantha, the FBI is really at fault here, don`t you agree?

SCHACHER: Of course, Dr. Drew. Everyone is at fault but him. The audacity of this man.

PINSKY: Yes, the temerity of him.

Yes, Jenny, I see your outrage.

Jenny Hutt joins us an attorney and Sirius XM Radio host.

Hold on, we`re talking about kidnapper and rapist Ariel Castro and he`s -- your brain doesn`t work in such a way that you can get your head around the statements he made in court today. At least normal people. Let`s start with FBI letting these girls down.

Jenny, have it.

JENNY HUTT, RADIO HOST: Are you kidding me? Come on, Dr. Drew. I mean, this guy is so out of control over the top. He`s a bully. He`s a monster. He`s like the worst thing to walk this earth frankly.

And if someone were to get him with a sieve while he were in jail, I`d be kind of happy. I watched so much of this today. And I cried for these girls. I cried for these girls who lost their time being girls because of him. He took their freaking lives for 10 years. He`s a disgusting --

PINSKY: Lauren, I heard him say some stuff today about the girls that was -- you know, if I had a disgust meter it was getting more and more disgusting on my meter. And he took off after the girls, Lauren, when he said, oh, well, they weren`t virgins when I got my hands on them. They had multiple partners. Did you hear all of that? It was unreal.

SCHACHER: Where`s Dexter Morgan?

LAKE: And when he says, most of the sex was consensual. Are you -- what, I can`t get out of the house?

It enrages me. The thought that a man would come and take young girls, steal their lives, steal a mother from her child and stand there in court today and like the FBI let somebody down. This is, for me, you know as Jane said earlier it`s a look inside of what a criminal mind truly looks like. It`s so hard for us to get our thoughts around how a person could be this evil.

And yet, we are witnessing it, right in front of our very eyes. A man, as I said, steal someone`s life, four people`s lives away and sit up in court and you know what if it weren`t for that FBI, they would have been all right. Me and my problems and that FBI -- I can`t get over it, Dr. Drew. I`m done.

PINSKY: Yes, it`s hard to get over it. Danine, you`re smiling.

MANETTE: I`m upset because of the continual victimization of these girls in court. With that being said as an investigator, I do think that the FBI could have done more. I think that he was the common denominator. That family was the common denominator between all these girls.

PINSKY: These were all friends of his kids, right?

MANETTE: I think had they maybe lived in a different neighborhood --


MANETTE: I understand, but I think that they really, they really maybe could have done a little more, you know?

SCHACHER: Can we talk about the heroism, the courage, the bravery of Michele Knight. I would love to talk about the silver lining and her resiliency.

HUTT: Kind of tough to find a real silver lining.

SCHACHER: Her bravery. I want to talk about her bravery and her resiliency. I want to talk about that today because I think that`s really important. Not Ariel Castros. I`m sick about talking about this psychopath.

PINSKY: In a second, we`ll talk to someone who has been through this experience and really get our heads around -- how -- what it feels like and how important it is to give this woman a chance to talk.

But, Casey, I want to get back to him and his behavior. You know, there`s so much here that people could learn from watching this, although we want to look away in disgust and well we should. There are things we could learn. What are your thoughts on that?

JORDAN: I have to tell you the level of denial and this blaming the victims and blaming the cops, blaming the FBI, blaming everyone, this lack of ownership is something I`ve seen in my own cases of rapists and pedophiles, especially on pedophiles, but really, on this level, only in serial killers. I think that if there`s any silver lining is these girls are alive.

You`re right, I recent the fact that he did get to speak in court today, but as an attorney I know he had the right. He`s exposing himself for the truth. He can`t hide from the truth. Now, everybody knows exactly who he is and done feel sorry for him.

So, now, you`re right. Let`s turn our attention on Michelle, on Amanda and Gina and leave them at peace so they can lead their lives. That`s the best gift we can give to insult this man.

PINSKY: Now, he may actually be segregated in prison, because he`s a sex offender. His life may be in danger from other inmates.


PINSKY: That`s what I was thinking.

LAKE: Did somebody say silver lining?



PINSKY: As well Amanda Berry`s sister was in court. She said Amanda doesn`t want to talk about what happened because she doesn`t want others talking about it, apparently concerned that the child, the child she had with Castro but still her child will hear the wrong thing.

Danine, do you agree with that?

MANETTE: I do. I think that`s being a very good protective daughter. I really can applaud her for that. I think Jaycee Dugard did the same thing, because no reason for her to be victimized again and she doesn`t you know, if we can get by with her knowing as little as possible, until she`s old enough to handle it, I applaud her for that. I think these women are so courageous.

PINSKY: Jenny, he`s spinning again. I don`t know if you caught this in court, Castro had this child with Amanda and asked the judge about seeing that child, which the judge denied.

HUTT: He`s so far gone. I watched a show earlier that he`s not, in fact, delusional. This is not someone exactly a mental illness that renders him incapable understanding what he`s saying or doing, but my goodness, that`s all kind of crazy with crazy on top, to think for a minute he should have access to that child. I mean, really?

Terminate the parental rights. May he never see her again.

PINSKY: I agree, Jenny. Casey, we don`t call that crazy. We call that grandiose, we call that lack of insight, we call that bizarre, but it`s not technically crazy. It`s not an axis I psychiatric diagnosis.

JORDAN: Right. And in the end, the lay person watching this show just comes to the conclusion that it was choice. If he`s sick, he had a choice to seek help. I loved that the judge pointed that out to him. That there were clinics and hospitals and psychiatric facilities within walking distance of his house and if he knew he was sick why didn`t he go and get the help he need?

Why didn`t he let them go? Why did he have to get caught before he apologized?

PINSKY: That`s the other lesson here guys. If you have an illness, get help. If you hurt somebody else, God help you.

Sam, take me home.

SCHACHER: Also, please, have your eyes and ears watching and if you see anything suspicious report it and trust your gut because they do assimilate into society very easily, like he did.

PINSKY: Next up, we have a young girl who was locked away in an underground dungeon. A kidnapping survivor joins me with advice for Ariel Castro`s victims.

And later, more disturbing testimony in the trial of Joshua Young, and the teen charged in the beating death of his 14-year-old stepbrother. The victim`s grandmother is my guest. She will be coming up later.

Don`t go away.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This guy built a dungeon and put a huge slab over it so he could kidnap her and keep her as his toy. There, the sociopath hiding amongst us.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN: He`s been building his dungeon for a long time. This was a year, I mean, more than a year.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I actually remember watching my brother and either a friend of my brother`s or my cousin who had passed away when I was 6 years old jumping in and out of this and wrestling in it and playing in it.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Samantha Schacher. That was Katie Beers talking about the dungeon she was held captive for more than two weeks opinion she was 10 at the time.

Katie joins us on the phone. She`s the author of "Buried Memories."

Also with us, Casey Jordan, Lauren Lake and Brian Copeland, talk show host on KGO Radio in San Francisco, also author of "Not a Genuine Black Man."

Katie, I want to hear your thoughts on Ariel Castro`s victims in a second, but first we want to hear about your ordeal. What did you have to suffer through?

KATIE BERS, HELD CAPTIVE (via telephone): I was sexually abused and raped by my godmother`s husband, physically abused, emotionally abused by my godmother and her husband. And if that wasn`t enough, I was neglected by my mother, all of the first 10 years of my life. And then, after that, I was abducted for 17 days and held in an underground, windowless bunker that was built specifically for me.

PINSKY: Wow. What is your message to Castro`s victims?

BEERS: Recovery is key. Finding support, therapy, discussing as much as you can as what happened to you, being able to work through what happened and being able to come through stronger.

PINSKY: I can`t help but ask, Kate, and maybe the panel has a chance to talk to you as well -- where does a human being find the strength to move forward and walk through this trauma and to participate in that treatment? I imagine people resist it because it`s so painful.

BEERS: Definitely. For me I was given the opportunity to move in with an amazing foster family, and if I was put back into my other -- back into the life that I was in prior to being abducted, I would have never made the recovery that I had made. I think the love and support and encouragement that my parents gave me and the therapy that I had gone through for the first eight years after the abduction really are the keys that helped me to recover.

PINSKY: Casey, I wonder if you have a comment or a question for Katie?

I`m not hearing Casey.

Brian, I`m going to go to you. Brian, your reaction.

BRIAN COPELAND, RADIO SHOW HOST: OK. Well, here`s my question for you, Katie. First of all, I commend you for overcoming all that you went through. Tell me -- can you speak a little bit as to how your ordeal has affected you as a parent? Has it made you more protective since you know what can happen?

VOICE OF KATIE BEERS, HELD CAPTIVE: So far, no. That`s not to say that`s not going to happen in the future. My son just turned four in June and my daughter just turned two at the end of July, and that was probably the hardest thing for me was my daughter turning two because my earliest memories are of sexual abuse and they were when I was around the age of two.

So, I look at my innocent daughter and wonder how someone could ever do anything like that to a child. So, that was hard for me. So, I might change my parenting ways and become a little bit more restrictive as to what they`re doing but, again, they`re two and four. It`s not like they`re out playing with friends at the playground unsupervised or anything like that.

PINSKY: Is Casey with me now? Can the control room tell me -- OK, good. Casey, I wonder if you could comment on what something that Katie is exemplifying here which is the sort of classic pattern is that once a child has been abused, particularly sexually, they become a great victim, victimizers snippet (ph) somehow, I don`t know, how they know that somebody`s a victim -- a survivor of that kind of abuse, but those are the ones that are re-victimized in, sometimes, terrible ways.

CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Yes. And I`ve interviewed lots of rapists and pedophiles who basically say, this is disturbing, rapists particularly, they can go into a room, into a bar and they say they can smell the damage on a particular woman. And they don`t literally mean an olfactory smell.

They can see it in her body language, in the resignation, perhaps, in her low self-esteem, and they know that that`s one that if they can get her out of the bar into the car and they make their pass, she`s just going to start disassociating and she`s not going to fight back. And if they rape her, she`ll never call the police, never tell anyone because she has a history of it.

But I have to tell you, Katie is truly one of my heroes. She looks at the incident of that two weeks as a turning point where it stopped, the cycle of abuse she`d experienced for the first ten years and she sees it with gratitude because it changed her life, put her with a foster family and made her the fantastic young woman she is today. For her to see that is really why I really appreciate her coming on today and talking about her ordeal.

PINSKY: Lauren, your reaction.

LAUREN LAKE, JUDGE OF "PATERNITY COURT": Katie, I wanted to say most certainly first off that you are a hero, and I wanted to find out from you when you were being held captive, how did you make it day-to-day, moment to moment? Did you always keep hope alive in your mind? Was it a strategy? Did you pray? Did you decide that you were going to recite an affirmation. How did you make it?

BEERS: I didn`t pray, although, I am a believer now. I think the thing that kept me going for those 17 days was I had access to a television. So, I could watch the news. I could see my biological mother and my biological brother, my grandmother, even my godmother who had abused me so terribly, I could see them looking for me and holding out hope that I would come home.

So, that is one of the things that was able to keep me going, because at 10 years old, I still wanted to go back and live with Marilyn and John and my grandmother in our little garage or converted garage apartment. That`s what I had wanted to do. And that`s what kept me going was being able to see them looking for me.

PINSKY: Got it.

BEERS: If I wasn`t able to see them looking for me, I don`t think I would have had hope. I Think I would have maybe after an extended period of time become hopeless. But also, the abuse that I sustained as a young child, the (INAUDIBLE) by my godmother and her husband, the sexual abuse, the neglect, the physical abuse, that all kind of prepared me for those 17 days.

PINSKY: Yes. I had feeling you were going to say that, that ability to tolerate the intolerable was already a part of your life. That`s incredible. Thank you very much, Katie, for sharing your thoughts with us.

Next up, the latest on the trial of 17-year-old Joshua Young, teen charge in the murder of his 14-year-old stepbrother.

And later, the victim`s grandmother joins me to explain why her daughter would marry a monster, another monster we`re talking about. Back after this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A big day in the Joshua Young trial. The mother of the victim, the stepmother of the defendant, was on the stand testifying. I wonder what our jury is going to think about her testimony.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s a great question. And tonight`s bold question is, do the family stories prove that Joshua Young is guilty?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Now, we got something really interesting tonight. Special guest, somebody who knew Joshua Young very well is going to tell both sides of Joshua Young maybe, something we`re not seeing in that courtroom. Our studio jury is ready.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Samantha Schacher. That baby face teen on trial for helping, apparently, murdered his 14-year-old stepbrother was back in court today. The victim`s mother spoke rather unemotionally about her relationship with the gentleman, I use that word choking on it, who had confessed to the murder. Take a look at this.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I fell into the restroom with my telephone. He would open up the door and suggest that I was making phone calls that would be offensive to him. He didn`t want me to take a shower with the door closed. He wanted to be present the entire time.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did he allow you to be alone at all?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you were seeking protection from Gouker (ph).


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that`s the reason you took this. "On Friday, he wanted to kill me and then kill himself. He has been pushing, shoving, and slapping me."


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "Grabbed me by my hair and threw me against the house." When you heard that there was a body found and your son wasn`t at home, did you start to regrettably put two and two together and say that`s my son?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You kind of see blood on the back of the victim`s head. He has short sleeves, Black t-shirt on and looked like blood or a little bit of spatter maybe on his arm. Blood pooling underneath his face.


PINSKY: HLN`s Jane Velez-Mitchell joins us once again. Jane, what was each side trying to get from the victim`s mother, Amanda?

VOICE OF JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN ANCHOR: Well, at the heart of this case, Dr. Drew, who killed her 14-year-old son, Trey Zwicker? So, she`s on the stand and here she is the mother of this boy was brutally murdered and she`s on the hot seat because her husband, Josh Gouker, is this thuggish, horrific monster of an ex-con who has already admitted that he killed her son.

But now, his son is on trial and he`s this, as you mentioned, baby face defendant who looks like an innocent little thing, but she`s painting him as a tough kid who was a bit of a thug himself and a bit of a bully. But here`s the weird part.

She may have unintentionally given her own husband a bit of an alibi because she mentions in her testimony that she had sex with her husband twice on the night that her own son died and that he videotaped the sex and that they were in bed together until 1:30 in the morning which is kind of sounding like a little like an alibi.

And there`s been a lot of question as to whether her thuggish ex-con husband really killed the boy or if he`s covering up for his son, because initially, he said oh, I`m going to point the finger at my son because he`s a minor, he`ll get off with nothing, and then, when they decided to charge him as an adult, suddenly, the dad is pleading guilty. So, it`s a big mess. And the question is who or did both the father and the son kill this kid?

PINSKY: And or is even Amanda somehow culpable in some way by keeping her son, the 14-year-old around these monsters in the household. Thank you so much, Jane. Still here Lauren Lake, Brian Copeland, and back with us, Jenny Hutt. So, was Amanda, again, the victim`s mom, a victim herself or was she part of the problem? -- Brian.

COPELAND: Well, I think that she`s part of the problem for a couple of reasons. First of all, I hate to pass judgment on her. She did lose a son, but why did she bring this animal around her child to begin with. I mean, let`s start with that premise from the very, very beginning. And the other thing is going back to whether or not big Josh took the rap for little Josh knowing what we know about this guy and what an animal this guy is.

Do you really believe, by any stretch of the imagination, that he would think about anybody else other than himself? That he would, in any way, shape or form, be benevolent enough to take a life sentence for his son? I don`t buy it.

PINSKY: I agree with you, Brian. Jenny, what are your thoughts?

JENNY HUTT, ATTORNEY: Well, he does have that little tear drop tattoo under his eye.


HUTT: That he cares about others. No, look, I think the issue with saying things about the mother and that it`s in any way her fault and where she is complicit or culpable. She didn`t know that she was really involved --

PINSKY: Oh, Jenny.

COPELAND: Oh, come on, Jenny. She knew who this man was.


PINSKY: You got to listen. You got to listen to me. You`re going to hear from Amanda`s mother, I believe, isn`t that who we have on next? Yes. Her mother is going to come on here next and going to straighten you out, I think. Yes. You`re going to be shocked.

LAKE: She knew who this man was.

PINSKY: Samantha, go ahead.

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Right, but at the same time, in Jenny`s defense, and believe me, I`m not defending this mom, but we also heard on the stand today that the mom said that she was abused, that she did leave him, and that he did dangle her over the balcony. He cut the cables of her car. He threatened to kill her. She filed an emergency protective order. So, let`s remember that, too.

PINSKY: Lauren, take me home.

LAKE: I think we have to take this moment to acknowledge and see that mothers, if you are in a situation where you are being abused, where you are being mistreated, where you are maybe fearful, this could then turn the tables on to your child and your child ends up be the one victimized and dead. We have got to take that home today.

PINSKY: I agree with Lauren. But listen, just the child witnessing that behavior is traumatic and increases the probability of difficult behaviors down the line.

Next up, Trey Zwicker`s grieving grandmother is here with insight into that family that led her grandson`s death. Back in a moment.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And his son just as guilty.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You enjoy certain things about him?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You enjoyed his personality?




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The night that Trey died that you had sex with him on two occasions that night?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And supposedly he made a video of that?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is one twisted story that, you know, me and Trey`s mother had not been together for years. I don`t know what went on down at her house. Trey spend majority of his time at my home because Gouker was no longer supposed to be in Amanda`s life.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Samantha Schacher, Jenny Hutt, and Lauren Lake. Joshua Gouker evil convicted killer but he seemed to have no trouble finding women, Samantha. Is that shocking to you?

SCHACHER: Absolutely shocking. I thought it was really interesting because today on stand, she said that -- Amanda said that there weren`t -- that it was almost common, that there was a lot of thugs on their street, almost justifying that this is all she had.

PINSKY: Well, I`d like to welcome to the program Shelly Stewart who is the grandmother of Trey Zwicker. Shelly, thank you for joining us this evening. I`ve seen you on television a number of times speak about this. And first of all, of course, we all -- this is such a tragedy. Our heart goes out to you and our prayers to your family.

My understanding is that you saw or at least your daughter told you about some unbelievable behavior on the part of big Josh like this one story about him beating a puppy and then a cat. Can you tell me what he did with that cat?

SHELLY STEWART, TREY ZWICKER`S GRANDMOTHER: Well, Trey`s puppy. He was only six weeks old. It was a Chihuahua puppy and he had used the floor and Josh hit the puppy in the head with a ball bat and killed it and told Amanda that here`s your (ph) bag of marijuana to pay for that puppy that I just killed.

PINSKY: And then the cat?

STEWART: We had went on a trip to Tennessee and we found these kittens that had been thrown out. So, me and my sister, we brought them back to Louisville and I gave one to McKenzie and the cat was getting pretty big size, but he was mostly an outdoor kind of cat. But Josh hated it so bad that he threw it off the second floor of the garage that has an apartment over the top of it.

And he threw the cat off there. Then he took the eye ball of the cat and put it on a stick and was running around and telling everybody he had his eyes on them.

PINSKY: So, the reason I wanted to paint that picture is to ask the next question, Shelly, and I`m sorry but I have to ask this. What`s up with Amanda? Why did she think it was a good idea to be with that guy?

STEWART: You know, if you could tell me why my daughter is the way she is, you would give me the best present in the world. Amanda has always been all about Amanda. From the time she was little until she met Josh when she was 13, 14 years old, and he`s been a pain in my behind since then because Amanda has constantly went back to this man for all these years.

PINSKY: Yes. There`s something -- you know, I will talk, have my panel back in a second. But just food for thought as we go across this commercial break is that people with severe sociopaths, psychopathy like big Josh and borderline personalities tend to go together. so, we may find out that`s what`s up with Amanda.

STEWART: She told me --

PINSKY: She told you what, Shelly?

STEWART: She told me that she thought she was a sociopath.

PINSKY: Well, female sociopath and borderline -- borderline female sociopath can be closely aligned. We`ll talk more about it. Got to take a break. Back with the panel and Shelly Stewart after this.


PINSKY: Back with my panel. Lauren, you had a question for Shelly, Trey Zwicker`s grandmother.

LAKE: I do, Shelly. I`m so sorry for your loss. I want to ask you. I saw your daughter on the stand today and she seemed a little emotionless, almost kind of flat. It was off putting in a way because as a mother of a child that is passed away or has killed, you expect to see more emotion. Is she normally that way?

STEWART: Yes. I had never been able to understand why she`s always been emotionless. It`s always been Amanda. She always wanted to be an only child, but I had three others. So, she couldn`t be an only child. But yes, she`s always been emotionless.

PINSKY: And does she understand emotion, Shelly, or does she seem like she doesn`t care about people`s feelings at all much the way big Josh operates?

STEWART: I believe that Amanda is all about Amanda and whatever is good for Amanda. She`s always been that way and I don`t know why. I would wish to know why.

PINSKY: Unless, we talk a lot tonight about people getting treatment before they hurt somebody, at least, should get an evaluation and get some treatment after all this. Maybe this is at least a wake-up call for her so somebody else doesn`t get hurt. Shelly, I really do appreciate you joining us this evening. I`ve got to take a break. We`re up against the clock. "Last Call" is next.


PINSKY: Time for the "Last Call." It goes to Samantha.

SCHACHER: Dr. Drew, I`m now confused, because earlier today, when I saw Amanda`s testimony, I thought maybe she too was victimized and abused. Now, after hearing from her mother, I feel like maybe something is wrong with her, too. But then my heart just breaks for these kids that are being raised in these homes.

PINSKY: Of course, something is wrong with her that`s why she would choose to be with a Josh. The question is, is she retrievable or not and that is something that needs to be evaluated. Some happy news before we go, our human lie detector, Janine Driver, had a baby boy named Charlie. We want to send her our congratulations. There it is. A baby baby lie detector. I wonder if he`ll have the magic powers that Janine has.


PINSKY: Thank you to my co-host, Samantha Schacher. I want to thank you all for watching. And just a reminder as always, "HLN After Dark" begins right now.