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Joshua Young on Trial

Aired August 6, 2013 - 21:00   ET



DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, did big Josh brag about creating a killer to help him murder his stepson? Our behavior bureau breaks down the actions of this monster.

And the victim`s father is here with reaction to his son`s killer on the stand.

Plus, Jerry Sandusky`s letter from prison. What the convicted child molester says about life behind bars.

Let`s get started.


PINSKY: Good evening.

My co-host is attorney and Sirius XM Radio host Jenny Hutt.


PINSKY: The cast of witnesses took the stand today in the trial of Joshua Young. Little Josh, the teen accused of helping to murder his stepbrother, many of them said his father big Josh admitted he had taken the fall for his son.

Watch this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did Gouker tell you who killed Trey?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. He told me another story, that hit him with the bad.

That was my bat. I have nothing to say. I decline.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you remember Josh Gouker telling you that they killed Trey to get even with Trey`s mother for killing Gouker`s child?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Trey`s mom had an abortion. He wanted an eye for an eye.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you ever afraid of Gouker?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He went to talk his son into killing Trey. He was going to man up and take the blame for it. He said he didn`t have to do much persuasion, because his son was a demon child.


PINSKY: Joining us now, Judge Lynn Toller, host of "Divorce Court", HLN own Jane Velez-Mitchell, and "Daily Beast" contributor Dean Obeidallah, and attorney and former prosecutor Loni Coombs, author of "You`re Perfect and Other Lies Parents Tell".

Jane, I wonder if you could you give us a little bit of what`s the latest?

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: Listen. We heard from a lot of questionable characters. You`re talking about convicts talking about what another convict Big Josh told them. So that`s like triple zero credibility, or less than zero credibility.

But what struck me, Dr. Drew, is that one of these convicts says that big Josh, the dad, the monster -- hell dad as I call him -- said oh, yes, I`m going to take the blame but not really, because ultimately I have an alibi for that night because I made a sex tape with the boy`s mother.

So he`s destroying four lives at once. He`s betraying a mother by having sex with her and videotaping the sex so he has an alibi knowing that he needs an alibi because her son is being murdered that very night purportedly by his own biological son. So, four lives completely shattered by this monster. That is sadism. That`s right up there with Marquis de Sade as far as I`m concerned.

PINSKY: Dean, I see you smiling there. What are your thoughts?

DEAN OBEIDALLAH, CNN.COM CONTRIBUTOR: It`s the sex tape defense. It`s something I`ve never heard of. It sounds like something you`d see in the Cinemax late night show where they use a sex tape defense.

None of these guys are believable. Not big Josh, not the other inmates. I think, frankly, the jury will ultimately discount all of that and look at the other evidence. Will there be enough for the conviction? That`s the question.

These guys, one after other, are lying. And no one talks to another cell mate not knowing that`s going to be used against you. Have you ever watched "Law and Order"? We`ve all seen this before. He`s manipulating everything big Josh on this.

PINSKY: So, yes, Loni, you`re shaking your head, no, but the fact is, we`ve heard so many conflicting stories about this guy. The only thing we know is he`s a liar and sociopath. He may be manipulating all the testimony he saw on the stand today.

LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Yes. I mean, we saw him on the stand. He loves to talk. He`s a bragger. So, I actually believe he was talking to all of these inmates.

And you notice one of them was too afraid to even say anything. Another one said he`s gotten beaten up four times for the fact that he was going to testify.

PINSKY: But, Loni, the guy that didn`t say anything, may be the guy that is going to be beat up. Maybe big Josh wants them to say all this stuff.

We`ve heard yesterday, Jane, we had a family member yesterday who said all this was a manipulation on the part of big Josh even to make himself look like a monster. That he wasn`t actually a monster.

JUDGE LYNN TOLER, DIVORCE COURT: You give him more credit than he`s due. He tells a lie today to deal with what he`s got today. He doesn`t have that long range thought. He tells what lie to whatever person he wants to get what he needs at that particular time.

HUTT: Unless --

PINSKY: Jane is clear --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Exactly. He`s not a genius, people. He`s not a genius. People may think he`s manipulating everybody.

He`s a moron and he`s a sadistic, sadistic man who admitted on the stand, grinning and laughing how he beat a dog to death, how he threw a cat out the window, and how his son he proudly says is a demon child or a demon seed. This is one monstrous father.

PINSKY: I`m giving space to Loni here. Loni, go at it.

COOMBS: Remember this. There are four other witnesses, not inmates who have testified, who have all said that little Josh told them that he did it. So whether we believe big Josh or not, what they are saying in essence, pointing the finger at little John is corroborated by these four other witness who are not inmates.

So, whether we believe big Josh or not, what these inmates are saying is corroborated. And that`s the important thing.

PINSKY: Jenny, go ahead.

HUTT: This is what I was going to say. He is a proud father of the demon son. That`s the key thing here. This is the one time he`s covering for his kid doing in a way oddly, weirdly right by his kid because he`s proud his kid`s a murderer. That`s what`s happening here.

PINSKY: Dean, you`re new to my panel. Help me out here. Bring sanity into this discussion.

OBEIDALLAH: There`s no sanity. I would hate to be on the jury. It`s a parade of liars.

How do you make a decision in this case? I don`t know what the other (INAUDIBLE) could end up being. They have one more witness testifying. But, I mean, the only thing this is done. There`s so many lies.

The only thing it`s done is make Anthony Weiner look more trustworthy. That`s all they`ve done, because the case, it`s ridiculous.

PINSKY: Nice. Anthony Weiner looks better. That`s the only thing we`ve learned.

He confided in a fellow inmate that he plans to take the fall for his son because he had this alibi. This is what Dean is calling the Cinemax alibi. We`ve got him saying that here, take a look at this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was going to man up and take the blame for it because he had an alibi. That he was going to try to get his son off and then later fight his case back in court and just get hit with the perjury, because he had an alibi.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did he say what the alibi was?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was making a sex tape, I think, with Trey`s mother.


PINSKY: Oh, Jane. Hell dad, indeed. I know I can make you go off like a roman candle. Let me tell you a story, Jane. Are you ready? You`ve heard about him throwing the cat out the window. Do you know what he did with the cat after it was dead?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s not funny, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: It`s not funny at all.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s not funny.

PINSKY: That`s the point. The guy`s disgusting on any level.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Animal cruelty is always a predictor of further cruelty often to human beings. That`s why we have to stand up against animal cruelty. The very fact that he thinks that`s funny shows you he is a sociopath or psychopath.

I mean, this man unfortunately has had an influence on his son. His son said to the detective, I want to be with my father. He essentially said, I idolize my father -- even though his father is this monstrous man.

PINSKY: But, Jane, the fact --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That makes sense. He became a monster.

PINSKY: Right, environment or genetics or both, whatever. But this kid participated in the abuse of the animals. That`s how I know this kid is very much suspect.

You are absolutely right. I`m not going to tell you what he did to the cat afterwards. It`s something that will blow your mind.

Judge Toler, you ready to comment here.

TOLER: I think that we`ve got to remember that this kid was 15. And you have this dominating, domineering, really sadistic individual who is in control not only of the son but all of the women and his surroundings. People were scared of him. There was an inmate that was scared of him.

So he has such a large and looming presence that we really have to take that into account when we talk about whatever even little Josh said about what he did do because of this looming, large, control, evil figure that was on top of him.

PINSKY: Jenny, I`m going to you but the fact is regardless of whether the looming monster, hell dad created the demon son or the demon son was born, or whatever, he`s still the demon seed. He`s still gotten there now.

HUTT: Well, and the thing is, Dr. Drew, a 15-year-old knows the difference between right and wrong. Even one who`s stunted knows that the fundamental difference of right from wrong. He may not choose to do what`s right and in this case we think he did what was very, very, very wrong. He had options.

I mean, not with the cast of characters we`ve seen so far. But he had the foster family with whom he was doing quite well. He could have gone to them when all this was coming apart, when all of this is getting planned.

PINSKY: Dean, you`ve got a look of consternation. What have you got?

OBEIDALLAH: Have we seen the sex tape? That`s my question, Dr. Drew. I want to know --

PINSKY: I personally have not.

OBEIDALLAH: Have we seen clips?

PINSKY: Nor would I care to. Thank you.

COOMBS: Can I say this?

OBEIDALLAH: But when the conduct -- the inmate testified today, he said he was going to make a sex tape like in the future.


PINSKY: I think we heard the wife report that the wife corroborated this they made the tape. Loni, is that right?

COOMBS: That`s correct. Dr. Drew, the thing I find so interesting about this case is if big Josh had not come in and just did a blanket I plead guilty against the counsel of his attorney, I really believe it would be hard for the jury to figure out which person did it. And if big Josh and little Josh had come into court, pointed the fingers at each other, I don`t know what we would end up with, if we`d end up with either one guilty.

This evidence is really confusing. And it either says big Josh or little Josh. But it doesn`t talk about complicity. There`s no evidence they necessarily worked together. That`s just a theory that I`ll tell you right now, I don`t think the prosecution has tied together.

TOLER: I think she has a good point. The prosecution hasn`t tied it together. No matter how reclaim it, label it, talk about him, you have to make a determination that this kid did this thing beyond a reasonable doubt. And the prosecution is going to have a tougher time than I think some people think.

PINSKY: Next up, big Josh`s stepdaughter testifies. Who do you believe? Is it him? This hell dad as Jane calls him appropriately? Or the daughter?

Behavior bureau will weigh in.

And later, Trey`s father has something to say about big Josh`s courtroom behavior. There he is. He`ll join us after this.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You admitted to hurting animals during that statement, didn`t you?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You admitted to beating a dog to death.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Josh hit the puppy in the head with a ball bat and killed it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, it was just one whack.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you beat a cat. Killed a cat, threw it away.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The cat was getting pretty big sized, but he was mostly an outdoor kind of cat. But Josh hated it so bad that he threw it off of the second floor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Y`all make it sound more sinister than it was.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then he took the eyeball of the cat and put it on the stick and was running around telling everybody he had the eye -- he had his eyes on them.


PINSKY: Time for our behavior bureau. Back with co-host Jenny Hutt. Talking about the trial of Joshua Young, the 17-year-old charged in connection with the murder of his 15-year-old stepbrother.

I want to read a tweet before I introduce my panel.

Jenny, you`re included in this one. It`s from @shannonfields, @jennyhutt, @drdrewhln.

"I agree with you, Jenny, that monster is proud of his killer son. Totally agree."

Jenny, I think that`s one of the possibilities here. Joining us psychotherapist and HLN contributor, Tiffanie Davis Henry, Cheryl Arutt, clinical and forensic psychologist, criminal investigator, Danine Manette, author of "Ultimate Betrayal", and behavior expert, Patti Wood, author of "Snap: Making the Most of First Impressions, Body Language and Charisma."

Patti, big Josh, he has all kinds of strange -- body movement, language -- body language when he laughs about killing a cat and beating a dog. What do you see?

PATTI WOOD, BEHAVIOR EXPERT: Well, the eeriest is when he is asked about the cat. He actually is re-experiencing the pleasure of killing that cat. You see that memory look and then that laugh. He actually enjoyed that experience.

And then there`s a little bit of wasn`t I great about doing that? It`s so disturbing.

PINSKY: Let me ask you also, Patti, did you watch the testimony of any of the other prisoners today? Did you see anything there? Did they seem to be telling the truth or any sense this was all being orchestrated behind the scenes by Gouker? Was there anything you could see to give us hints about that?

WOOD: Just actually their lack of comfort and how down their body language and juxtaposition to his, where he was often up and cocky. You see the shoulders shrug, that turtle move and top corner of the one person testifying. So, he was so radically different from them that it was disturbing to us.

PINSKY: You see, I wonder if he`s not threatening them and getting them to give this testimony. Now, we know he`s a liar, right? And we don`t know who`s telling the truth. Take a look at this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve lied about this whole thing until I got indicted and arraigned.

I think after that very first meeting they believed me. They -- you know, I cried and (EXPLETIVE DELETED) like that. They believed me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re the mastermind, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can call it what you want. It`s not easy to be a mastermind when you`re dealing with dumb people. I don`t deny nothing I`ve said. I`m (EXPLETIVE DELETED) liar. You know what I mean?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did Josh Young meet you to help you kill Trey?



PINSKY: Jenny, you want to comment on this?

HUTT: Yes. I just want to comment that he`s got such arrogance, such hubris and vile swagger, that whether or not he`s covering for his son, I`m happy he`s locked up. He`s despicable.

PINSKY: Danine, you work with an inmate population, I wonder if you`re seeing something different here that the rest of us do?

DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: Dr. Drew, I am just not buying this guy`s act. I think that he has been consulting with his jailhouse attorneys. There`s one on every tier in every housing unit in the penitentiary. And they get the information from them about how to put these witnesses on the stand so people will have some -- the jurors will have reasonable doubt about their testimony because they`re telling conflicting stories, and so that he can get his son off and contest his guilty plea by using ineffectiveness of counsel argument or something so that everybody gets away with murder.

I`m not buying the story. I`m not buying it.

PINSKY: Danine, I`m with you. See, I want you to -- you shined clarity on this for me. Tell people again what you mean about jailhouse consultants. I`ve heard a lot about this. There are attorneys inside the jail.


PINSKY: Tell people about that.

MANETTE: On every tier in the penitentiary, there are people so immersed in studying up on their own legal cases in order to have their own defense, they give counsel to other inmates on the best way to work the system or the best way to, you know, to launch an appeal or to present their case in court. They are in every, every penitentiary.

And I am quite sure that this guy is savvy enough to know exactly who to go to, to get the information.

PINSKY: Yes, I feel something like that going on guys. I agree with that too. Tiffanie and Cheryl, I want you to watch this. Earlier today, big Josh`s stepdaughter Mackenzie took the stand and contradicted an important piece of his testimony. First, here`s what big Josh told the judge yesterday.


JUDGE: Was Mackenzie on the couch either when or where you played mortal combat?


PINSKY: All right. Now, here`s what 10-year-old Mackenzie said today. Watch this.


JUDGE: Did Josh Gouker every come out to play video games while you were on the couch that night?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, he never did.


PINSKY: I am prone to believe the 10-year-old, aren`t you?

I can`t hear Tiffanie now. I lost her. How about Cheryl? Can I hear you?

ARUTT: Dr. Drew, even the inmates are afraid of this guy. I mean, we have to think that the 10-year-old might have been also, but I think she was really telling the truth. And Gouker keeps talking about manning up. What kind of man approaches his 15-year-old son to try to get him to commit murder for him?

PINSKY: And, by the way, and Tiffanie I hope I`m back with you, gets a 10-year-old swept into his lies, although she`s probably used to it by now.

TIFFANIE DAVIS HENRY, PH.D., PSYCHOTHERAPIST: I`m sure she is. But that`s the problem. We don`t know the truth. And because he`s such a liar and such an effective liar and such a manipulative person, he has weaved this web of we don`t know whether we`re coming or going. The only truth in this case is that this man is a liar and he cannot be trusted.

PINSKY: Let me put one more tweet up for you guys. Can I just say the admiration Joshua young feels towards his father is absolutely sickening if indeed that kid does feel admiration or whatever he feels. Maybe it`s just some sort of prisoner Stockholm syndrome. Tiffanie, finish up.

HENRY: The challenge with that is, Dr. Drew, a lot of us think our parents hung the moon. And we don`t -- as kids we don`t necessarily judge our parents in the same way we might as adults. This is a little guy who grew up maybe wanting a close relationship with his dad, and he found the way he could get his dad to love him, respect him and honor him is to be just like his dad. That`s what`s really sad.

PINSKY: That is sad and that is sickening.

Next up, Trey Zwicker`s father tells us what he thought as he listened to this man that Jane called the hell father, hell dad. Jenny, you keep calling him monster and despicable. I agree with all that.

And later, Jerry Sandusky`s letter from prison. What the convicted pedophile says about life behind bars. We have the letters. And we`re back after this.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, it`s not like I wanted Trey to die or if I could do it over, I`d kill him again. None of that, I mean, his mother killed a couple of mine, and it just felt right. I`ve been sentenced for it, life in prison. Yet here I am going over the same (EXPLETIVE DELETED) story. This is a highly publicized case and a lot of people just want to get at it.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host Jenny Hutt and the behavior bureau. We`ve been talking about the trial of Joshua Young, the teen charged in connection with the murder of his 14-year-old stepbrother Trey Zwicker.

Joining us is Trey`s father Terry Zwicker.

Terry, thank you for joining us again. I appreciate you being here. I want to know what your thoughts are as you watched big Josh on the stand.

TERRY ZWICKER, TREY ZWICKER`S FATHER: I can sum that up in one word. Coward. You know, a lot of big talk.

But you have to understand this is a guy that I`ve known for a very long time. I`ve had run-ins with most of my life other than the 10 years he disappeared for the penitentiary. I still stand before you here today.

And, you know, explaining how he snuck up behind the 14-year-old child, that`s coward. Not only a liar, he`s a coward.

PINSKY: What is he up to?

ZWICKER: I have no clue. Never been able to really tell you what his misdemeanor is.

I know that when you talk to him and you listen to him, you only take about half the words and put them together and make them make sense of a logical way. And you could easily figure out what his M.O. is.

PINSKY: Terry, do you have any more sense of what actually happened to your son or do you have a theory yourself?

ZWICKER: I have a theory. You know, I believe that, you know, something happened down there that night. You know, not playing video games, not stealing food, not stealing lighters. Something went on down there that night. It could have been domestic violence. Could have been something else, you know.

I believe, you know, it eventually drifted into what they call the spot down there behind the school. I believe Josh Gouker, Josh Young, and my son were there. For whatever they were doing. Maybe they were looking for more turtles. And when Gouker sees the opportunity, he hit him from behind. Then the two finished him off.

PINSKY: Cheryl, I want --

ZWICKER: Without me being present, everything would be --

PINSKY: Terry, hold on a second. I`m so sorry.

Jenny, do you have a question for my guest?

ARUTT: I do have a question. First of all, Terry, I`d like to say I`m so sorry for your loss and what you`re going through. And you mentioned you have this history with big Josh.

Do you think there was a long standing grudge he was acting out in addition to the things he`s admitted to, that he was trying to hurt you as well?

ZWICKER: You know, he could have been. You know, I don`t know whatever I could have done to him to equal this reality.

ARUTT: Well, nothing excuses that.

ZWICKER: It could have been. I mean -- no. Nothing at all. I mean, for what reason, it`s his own. He`s never brought it to my attention, that`s for sure.

PINSKY: Tiffanie, your question.

ZWICKER: We`ve made it clear to each other we never liked each other.

HENRY: Yes, and, actually, Dr. Drew, my question was very similar to Cheryl`s. Mr. Zwicker, thank you so much for opening up and talking about this.

And I know it`s hard now to even think about why something like this might have happened or to even get into the mind of someone like big Josh. But do you have any thoughts, any other than what he`s already said as to why what his motivation would be to do something this heinous and cruel to your family?

ZWICKER: Just other than, you know -- I would say it`s more along the lines of timing. I mean, irregardless, that was -- if it wasn`t my son, it was going to be somebody else.

You know, it`s all a matter of who he was as an individual. You start killing animals and you start bleeding into human beings fairly quickly. I mean, I`ve seen it in history books. I`ve seen it on Hollywood movies. I mean, it`s open/shut story there. You know, killing animals and get the taste of blood. Next thing you know, you`re after a human being. It may not have been a vendetta, you know, partially on the Zwicker family. It may not even have been the M.O. he said. It could have been just something that this is how I start off.

PINSKY: Jenny.

HUTT: I`m trying to wrap my head around this. First of all, I`m so sorry, because this is the most horrible, tragic thing. But do you think Little Josh had something to do with it? Do you think that he`s as evil as his father? And is it something that you`ve seen before in Little Josh?

ZWICKER: Oh, yes, ma`am. I`ve had past run-ins with Joshua Young. I`ve seen him talk. I`ve seen him act out around the neighborhood. I`ve seen the conniving, bat them little eyes and smile and give you the middle finger in the background type deal when nobody of a power is looking. You know, I`ve experienced him. Matter of fact, I`ve had encounters with him talking to me disrespectful as an adult figure.

And for me, you know, the Young Family is good people. You know, I went to church with them. So for me to tell you that about another Young, you know, it sickens me, you know? But, I have to stand my ground on this point. I`ve seen the little boy in action.

PINSKY: Danine, finish us up.

MANETTE: I just have one quick question. As a parent, I go to my animalistic core when I feel as though someone has wronged my child. And I`m wondering, do you struggle with the feeling of revenge or anger that --

PINSKY: Revenge. call it what it is.

MANETTE: I mean, because I -- do you struggle with that? Do you struggle with wanting to get them back?

ZWICKER: Oh, yes, ma`am. Every day. I`m a father. I`d skin him alive out in the front where everybody could see.

PINSKY: Terry, thank you so much --

ZWICKER: But, you know, --

PINSKY: Go ahead. Finish, please.

ZWICKER: When you`re a parent, every parent always thinks of the worst. What could happen to my child? They shake it off like there`s nothing. But when you go down to a ditch bank, you`re not ready for the mack truck that`s going to hit you. I didn`t know who I was for about six months.

HUTT: Wow.

PINSKY: Yes. Terry, we can only imagine, but we can`t. You`re absolutely right. You think you could. You think the worst, but I just can`t imagine. It`s just unthinkable. I do appreciate --

ZWICKER: All I can tell you, Dr. Drew, is don`t.

PINSKY: Yes. And I understand. All right, my friend. Thank you for joining us once again. We do appreciate it. Thank you to the panel.

Next up, I have a forensic expert, Dr. Bill Lloyd. He`s going to take us through the medical examiner`s graphic testimony today.

And later on, Usher`s little son was apparently rushed to a hospital. We have the frantic 911 call. We are back after this.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Trey had multiple injuries to his body, mostly to his head, face, and back.

PINSKY: And I got to tell you something, when I was reading the report, I even thought about a hatchet.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Looking at the characteristics of this wound, I felt that this was a, what we call, a chop injury. A chop injury is a type of sharp force injury in which you have a heavy object that has a sharp end on it. So, something like an axe or machete.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And are you able to say whether one person or more than one person committed all of the damage to the back?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, ma`am. I cannot.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. And we are talking about the trial of Joshua Young, the 17-year-old charge in connection with the murder of his 14-year-old step-brother. Also back, Judge Lynn Toler and Loni Coombs. And joining us now is pathologist, Dr. Bill Lloyd.

The medical examiner took the stand today, delivered testimony, frankly, so gruesome for Terry had to leave the courtroom, and I can`t blame him. Dr. Lloyd, take us through what she said about Trey`s injuries. Again, if you remember yesterday, I said when I read that autopsy report that huge flap under this masses (ph) fracturing of the skull and disruption of his cerebellum made me think about an axe.

She brought up an axe or a machete today. My question is, are we still working with the theory of a pipe or maybe the pipe with a sharp edge?

DR. BILL LLOYD, PATHOLOGIST: Well, we know he sustained serious injuries to the back of the head, a fracture that went along the backside of the scalp from ear to ear. So there, we`re talking about something strong enough to break bone. Similar injuries seen along the back of the shoulders and down the back of the torso as well. They were about an inch or so -- three-quarters of an inch in diameter.

It didn`t have to be a pipe. It could be something as simple as a broom handle. And guess what, Drew, if you break a broom handle in two, now you`ve got two weapons.

PINSKY: Oh, interesting. Again, Dr. Lloyd, I`m developing another theory in my own mind, which maybe it was both of them there, maybe one of them hit him in the face with a bat because we have a bloody bat allegedly somebody saw. We know his face got a pretty bad blunt trauma injury, might have been a bat. And maybe the other guy hit him in the back of the head with something sharper.

LLOYD: Well, that`s always a possibility, and it brings to mind the story of the lord of the flies. That everybody had to read freshman year in high school when they went after piggy. And sure enough, with just simple sticks, they were able to slaughter this young boy. And it could have been the situation where the son was sucked into what Big Josh was doing.

Soft tissue injuries can happen anyway, from blunt force injury or from something sharp like you`ve described. All we know is Big Josh tells us whatever weapon he used, he wrapped it up in his old clothes and left it behind in the dumper by the Mexican restaurant.

PINSKY: Jenny, you wanted to say something?

HUTT: Yes. I just wanted to say, Dr. Drew, that I`m a little concerned about how much you`ve thought about this and how comfortable you are in assessing how it could possibly happen.

PINSKY: I`m not comfortable. Judge Toler (ph) is laughing at you, though.

HUTT: Also -- wait, let me finish. I do think you`re a little bit like Quincy medical examiner and who knew.

PINSKY: Well, I`m just saying, I got to read the autopsy. But Judge Toler, go ahead.

JUDGE LYNN TOLER, HOST OF "DIVORCE COURT": I mean, it`s extraordinary you get bits and pieces of information and you make a story in your head.

LLOYD: Yes. Yes.

TOLER: And that`s why we always tell jurors don`t talk amongst yourself until after all the evidence is in, because once you`ve woven a story for yourself, it`s hard to dis -- you know disassociate yourself with it. So, you got to be careful about the stories you tell yourself. And that`s why we tell the jurors, don`t discuss it until all the evidence is in.

PINSKY: It`s a great point. But Loni, do you have any belief in what I`m theorizing that they both may have, in fact, participated?

LONI COOMBS, ATTORNEY: You know, I do. I think that`s definitely a possibility. Unfortunately with this evidence, it`s one very good possibility just as much as one or the other did it by themselves. But, when you have the attack on the front and you have the attack on the back, even if just one is swinging the blows, there could be another one that lured him down there.

It does seem very much like it could have been two people that worked together in concert to make this happen. But, it`s interesting that while the injuries did look like a sharp object -- in fact, the detectives when they first saw the body, they thought it might be a machete or something.


COOMBS: Something similar to what you said. Both medical examiners said they couldn`t rule out this bat which is what all the witnesses are saying that Josh Young --

PINSKY: You can`t rule it out, Dr. Lloyd. You can`t say it`s absolutely not that. I don`t know. That big flap seems like a sharper object. Go ahead. Finish me up.

LLOYD: Yes. The sequence of the testimony was reversed in this case. They brought in the expert witness for the defense first. He planted all these seeds. He tolled over all this soil and made it all kind of explanations, postulates, theories, and speculation. They brought in the medical examiner today who actually performed the autopsy and started using language that did not appear, that did not appear, in the medical examiner`s autopsy report.

They had to create new suppositions and new ideas bringing to the discussion about the soft tissue injuries and the machete when, in fact, again a good clobbering can rip up a lot of skin.

PINSKY: Agreed. Thank you, panel.

Next up, Jerry Sandusky`s letters from prison. He calls the situation unfair. After this.


PINSKY: Welcome back. My co-host, Jenny Hutt. Former Penn State football coach, Jerry Sandusky, in prison for his conviction on multiple counts of child sex abuse. Apparently, he`s been writing letters, jenny, to pen pals from behind bars, letters that have been --

HUTT: How old are they?

PINSKY: The letters or the people he`s writing to? You`re sort of scaring me. Well, those letters obtained and published by TMZ.

Back with us to discuss, Judge Lynn Toler, Danine Manette, and Loni Coombs. And here is what he writes in these letters. Again, these have been obtained by TMZ. Show them up here. Here we go. Quote, "I`m doing all right. Up and down, battling hard. An appeal is in the process." Jenny will be happy to know.

"The battle will continue until the last whistle. I must also fight my personal battles to endure to learn from, grow from, and endure the circumstances. I`m trying to get better." Danine, you work with inmates. You give us insight of what`s going on behind bars. What do you think he means by trying to get better?

MANETTE: I have no idea, but what I do want to know is who is writing to him? Even Ariel Castro`s family and children cut him loose. They said this guy is whack. We`re done with him. So, whoever is writing to him, I think, the police need to go to those people`s homes and take the hard drives from their computer and find out what the impetus is or the desire to write to this guy. How does he have pen pals? I don`t get it.

PINSKY: Jenny, you`re asking the same thing?

HUTT: There`s a website called like or something like that.

PINSKY: Seriously?

HUTT: Yes. Seriously. No joke. Yes. And this website, you go on, you find prisoners` addresses and you can make friends.

PINSKY: Loni, you`re familiar with this site, Loni? Don`t frighten me.

COOMBS: No, I`m not familiar with that site, but I had the same concern, because one of these letters at the end, he says, give my best to your dad, which led me to believe this is a kid he`s writing to, a younger person. And that just gives me the creeps.

PINSKY: Well, let me give you some more of his prison correspondence. Again, this obtained by TMZ. Put it up there on the screen. "I`ve been quite confined. My main purpose is to endure. Don`t let our circumstances," the (INAUDIBLE) ours is interesting. "Get the best of us. Remain as positive as possible. Exercise your mind, body, and spirit. This, too, presents a challenge. I`m hanging in there."

Judge Toler, he`s likely to die in jail, right?

TOLER: Absolutely.

PINSKY: OK. So my question is, people have a funny sense that he should -- I`ve talked to people that think that he should be allowed some sort of treatment. Does he have rights to any kind of treatment? Let`s say he gets depressed in jail. I guess, he has rights to basic medical care, but that`s about it, right?

TOLER: Yes. Basic medical care. And if they think he is an immediate harm to himself and he`s going to kill himself, they can`t just leave him alone to let that happen. They separate them and do what they have to do to them to do that. But I don`t think he`s working on, really, anything other than getting out.

I think he is so suffuse with his own importance. He really believes that the appeal might come to something, and I think he knows that people will have access to these letters. I don`t think he`s working on any issues other than the one to get out because he really can`t believe that he`s been put through this.

HUTT: Right. Because, Dr. Drew, you know that Jerry Sandusky, he just likes children. He just likes to hang out with them.

PINSKY: Just likes hanging out. Yes. Sometimes taking showers. Just saying.

HUTT: That`s what he said himself. He just likes hanging out with kids.

PINSKY: Stay with me, panel. More on Jerry Sandusky and these letters after the break.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m responding to the worst loss of my life. First, I looked at myself. Over and over I asked why. Why didn`t we have a fair opportunity to prepare for trial? Why have so many people suffered as a result of false allegations? What`s the purpose? In my heart, I know I did not do these alleged disgusting acts. My wife has been my only sex partner and that was after marriage. Our love continues.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. Also back with Judge Lynn Toler, Danine Manette, and Loni Coombs. We`re talking about former Penn State football coach, Jerry Sandusky and his letters -- hang on a second, Jenny -- that this convicted child molester wrote from prison. Letters that have been obtained by and published by TMZ -- Jenny.

HUTT: Dr. Drew, is there any sort of help for sickos like Jerry Sandusky?

PINSKY: There`s help for people with impulses towards children before they hurt somebody. I know people debate about whether it works. I have seen these kinds of treatments work for people with these kinds of compulsions and paraphilias and whatnot.

But Judge Toler, I can`t imagine that behind bars is -- I know there`s addiction treatment, there`s basic psychiatric care. But I`m not aware of any treatment for this kind of thing. Plus, it`s expensive and time consuming. I wouldn`t think they use resources on these guys.

TOLER: Absolutely. I don`t think they would. I don`t think that there`s any treatment that`s really shown that it can be effective for this kind of thing. And he is not getting out. And what few resources they do have, they have to have targeted towards guys that have done things and, you know, and going to get out one day.

PINSKY: Exactly. That`s right. Loni, go.

COOMBS: And also agree that they have a problem.

PINSKY: Right.

COOMBS: I mean, this guy is in such denial. You can tell from the letters he`s still giving out, you know, spiritual advice and telling -- you know, turn to God and rely on Him and, you know, work out your mind and your body and spirit. And he is so clueless as to what he has done, and he will not accept it.

He`s working on his appeal. He`s working with a woman in Oregon who`s writing a summary of it might help him. He wants the truth to come out. I mean, treatment is the last thing he`s ever going to want.

PINSKY: Danine, go ahead.

MANETTE: Dr. Drew, one thing that I`ve learned over the last few years is that in a lot of these medical correctional facilities, all of the sex offenders are housed together which means the rapists and the child molesters are house in one area. And the rapists prey (ph) on the child molesters. And that`s kind of how they live in there. So, I don`t know. That may make some people feel better. I don`t know.

HUTT: I feel better.

PINSKY: You mean, they physically act out on them --

MANETTE: They physically act out on the child molesters because they`re all housed together in some of these medical facilities. So, I don`t know if that helps some people --

PINSKY: Fantastic. Just nirvana, I tell you. Fantastic. All right, guys. Thanks, panel. Thank you very much.

Next up, Usher`s five-year-old son apparently almost drowned. We have the 911 call. Back with us. You`ll hear it after this.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s the status of your emergency?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I have -- my nephew was in the pool, and he -- he went, I couldn`t get him -- I couldn`t -- I couldn`t get him. I tried to get him. They got him out now doing CPR on him.


PINSKY: Wow. That apparently is Usher`s aunt on a 911 call made after the singer`s son got into trouble in a swimming pool Monday. Now, Jenny, according to the police -- there`s the pool there -- it`s almost like an urban myth. The boy got stuck in a drain, they say. He may have been trying to get a toy, apparently, and fall into the pool.

Workers at the house rescued Usher Raymond V, that`s his child. He was apparently conscious and breathing when taken into Atlanta hospital. Police say he`s being held overnight for observation, but wow, Jenny. I mean, you can hear the terror in that woman`s voice.

HUTT: Yes. Dr. Drew, how long can a kid be out or be unconscious or not be breathing and still be OK in terms of the brain?

PINSKY: It`s variable. It can be minutes. But in this case, he did not actually drown. This is what you call a near drowning. Unfortunately, near drowning, fluid water often gets into the lungs and it can then set up a pneumonia and then respiratory failure later, which is why although this kid was alert and seemingly OK, a real drowning, the lungs fill with water. It can be catastrophic.

HUTT: But again --

PINSKY: But near drowning, the complications can be equally as problematic, which is why this kid was taken to the hospital for observation.

HUTT: Yes, but -- I was just going to say, Dr. Drew, I guess the learning experience we have to take away is that when there`s a pool, you can never look away. You can never turn your eye.

PINSKY: Listen, kids drown in the few inches of water. It`s summertime. It`s a great reminder. These kids (ph) are going to be great. That`s reminder to all of us to be aware around any water with kids. Thank you, Jenny. Thank you all for watching. Thank you to my panelists. I will see our viewers next time. "HLN After Dark" starts right now.