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Desperate Search for Missing Kids Believed Abducted; Woman Charged with Trying to Have Ex-Boyfriends Killed

Aired August 6, 2013 - 19:00   ET


SUSAN HENDRICKS, HLN ANCHOR: It is huge to see Josh Young in his own words.



JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Tonight, breaking news. A horror in beautiful San Diego, California. A massive manhunt and dragnet intensifies tonight for that man. Cops searching right now for James Lee DiMaggio. He`s wanted for murder, arson, abduction. The question is why?

Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell coming to you live.

A desperate search under way right now for this beautiful 16-year-old girl and her 8-year-old brother. Could an obsession have led to murder, arson and abduction?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Breaking news. A nationwide manhunt under way at this hour.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The suspect in this murder and arson has been identified as James Lee DiMaggio.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police believe that he burned down his house, and they believe he killed his friend, Christina Anderson.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An Amber Alert has been activated.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police believe he took Anderson`s two children, 16-year-old Hannah and 8-year-old Ethan. Could be in a blue Nissan Versa, and that he could be headed east to Texas or north to Canada.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (via phone): He was, like, a genuinely nice guy. He was close to the kids, and you know, he was good friends with my -- my sister and my brother-in-law.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Cops say 40-year-old James DiMaggio, the so-called nice guy, abducted 16-year-old Hannah Anderson and possibly her 8-year-old brother, Ethan, after killing their mother and setting his house on fire with her body inside. A child`s body was also found but not yet identified.

The gruesome discovery triggered an Amber Alert when her two children vanished. Family members say suspect James DiMaggio knew Hannah and Ethan since they were born and had been "just friends," platonic friends with their mom for years. Listen.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ms. Anderson and DiMaggio were in a close relationship, a close platonic relationship. There was no romantic involvement between the two.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: But was he really just interested in the woman`s beautiful teenage daughter all along?

Cops think that teenage daughter, Hannah, is in danger as we speak and that James DiMaggio could be headed with her to Canada or Texas, where he used to live. Is this man a predator who became infatuated with a woman`s beautiful teenage daughter and then killed the mom to be with the teen?

The missing teenager, Hannah, recently posted this photo of herself and James DiMaggio to her Facebook page. Look closely. Is this older man, who is now wanted for murder and kidnapping, infatuated with this teenager, this daughter of a platonic female friend? Did he become obsessed and kidnap her?

The race to find these innocent children is on.

Straight out to CNN correspondent Paul Vercammen, who is in San Diego tonight. Paul, what is the very latest?

PAUL VERCAMMEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jane, as you`ve articulated, there`s a tremendous sense of urgency right now to find DiMaggio. As you pointed out, it was a nationwide search. We now know that federal marshals and the FBI also trying to track him down.

Let`s go back to that first night, the fire, Sunday night. This is giving him almost two full days with which to drive away. As you know, they`re searching for the car.

So inside the house they found the remains of his close platonic friend. That would be Christina Anderson, 44. They also found the body of a child. Now you can read between the lines here. Authorities telling me one source saying that those remains are not inconsistent with those remains of an 8-year-old child.

So when they talk about this search, they are looking for both children, but again, an indicator that the boy`s body is inside. That`s where we`re at right now.

Again, federal authorities looking -- I`m also getting some information that they`ve sort of characterized this notion of looking for DiMaggio in Texas and Canada. It`s nationwide. It`s a long search. There are some ties to Texas from DiMaggio. We know that he did have a misdemeanor arrest there in about 1996.

What does he do for a living? We understand he has some experience in I.T. Also in furniture or mattress sales.

He`s 40 years old. The town they were in, by the way, is very close to the Mexican border.

So that`s the latest here from San Diego right now. Again, as we said, a tremendous sense of urgency here, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And it`s so interesting. Thank you for that report, Paul. But this guy had been, up until this time, described as kind of a nice guy. And what sent him over the edge, allegedly?

Cops say DiMaggio lived by himself in Boulevard, California. That`s a really small town. Listen, I lived in California for 18 years and never heard of Boulevard, and I`ve been to San Diego many times. It`s about 60 miles southeast of San Diego in the middle of nowhere, very close to the Mexican border.

So we did some digging into this guy`s background. And it turns out, as you just heard Paul say, he has a record. He was arrested in Texas once for fleeing from a police officer, which in that case was a misdemeanor.

But here`s what I want to raise with my Lion`s Den. So let`s go straight out to the Lion`s Den. Could there be more to this back story than he was telling the family?

I want you all to take a look at the Facebook photo of this man who is currently being sought tonight for murder, arson and kidnapping, and the 16-year-old girl that he is purportedly, possibly, allegedly with, the daughter, the beautiful teenage daughter of the now-deceased women.

This looks -- there`s something about this photo that doesn`t look right to me, Jayne Weintraub. Why does a 16-year-old girl post a photo of her with an old guy? Let`s face it, for 16 years old, she -- he`s an old guy. I`m wondering whether or not he was trying to seduce her or became obsessed with her.

JAYNE WEINTRAUB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it shows -- it tells me that she`s comfortable with him. I mean, maybe she`s familiar with him, as having a relationship, friendship or whatever, with her mom. I don`t think that she`s looking at him in any adoring manner.

I think that there is a back story. I don`t think it`s all just to get the girl. Because then why would he have kidnapped the other boy, as well?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, if you just heard Paul say, there`s a very good chance, although it has not been officially mentioned, that since there was a -- and let`s show the fire, because there was a fire at the man`s house. There was a woman there found, identified as the mother of the 16-year-old girl.

But there`s a little boy`s body or a child`s body that was found, has not been officially identified as Ethan, and we pray to God that he wasn`t in that house. But you just heard Paul, the reporter, say that connect the dots. The...

WEINTRAUB: It probably is the boy.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. I mean, it`s very possible, and we pray that it`s not. But it`s possible.

J. Wyndal Gordon, I mean, you know, there`s only a couple of reasons, a handful of reasons for why people do bad things. And sexual obsession is -- is one of the key reasons.

J. WYNDAL GORDON, ATTORNEY: I agree with you. Particularly in that - - particularly in that situation where the photograph is being taken. It is the man who is taking the picture. Now I don`t know whether or not that`s with her telephone, but he`s taking the picture and it ends up being posted to her page. I don`t know if that`s supposed to be some alibi that he`s trying to create with him and saying, "Hey, look, we were -- we were on this trip. I couldn`t possibly be at two places at one time." I don`t know.

But I would imagine that that photograph will come up in the court case, because I believe it`s going to be evidence of some type of defense he`ll try to raise in the future. She may not even -- well, I hate to say it. But she...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s so stunning in a sleepy town.

GORDON: I don`t know. I`m concerned. I`m very concerned about these children. I`m very concerned about her.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s go out to the phone lines right now. Larry, South Carolina, your question or thought as we try to do something helpful to find this beautiful young lady who is missing and suspected to be with this man.

CALLER: Hey, Jane, I watch your show every day. We enjoy it. My question is to the lawyers. Is -- I think that the mother found out that something was going on between him and the daughter, and I hope that she will be found alive and be brought back home to the family.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jayne Weintraub, criminal defense attorney, our caller, Larry from South Carolina, makes an excellent point. If he had some funny business in his head about this beautiful, pubescent young woman -- and remember, the platonic male friends who hang around a family, the uncles, those are often where -- I mean, uncle in quotes. Not really an uncle but "uncle." Those are often the ones who have an ulterior motive. We`ve seen that historically, unfortunately. Just like people who get jobs to be around children are often, unfortunately, pedophiles.

Is it possible this caller is right, that he gets them to the house, he think the mother is otherwise occupied. The mother walks in on something, some hanky-panky and boom? Next thing you know...

WEINTRAUB: I think the caller -- I think the caller certainly has a good point. I mean, we don`t know what the story is yet. I mean, it could also be a Stockholm Syndrome thing by this point. We don`t know. We don`t know if she`s acquiesced. We don`t know if she was consenting. We don`t know anything yet.

Urgency is the biggest word that Paul, the reporter, was talking about that rings true. She is a stunning-looking girl. Hopefully, a gas station, a 7-11. Anywhere they stop or go through in a sleepy town, somebody will look up. Somebody will see your show.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Cops suspect James DiMaggio is on the run to either Texas, where he once lived, or Canada.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Blue Nissan Versa, a four-door, which should look just like this, with a California license plate 6, "W" as in "Williams," "C" as in "Charles," "U" as in "unit," 986.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: A quick search revealed DiMaggio`s now burned-down house was about five miles from the U.S.-Mexico border.

Now, take a look at this car. This is the car that`s believed that he is in. And it is a blue Nissan Versa 2013. You see it has a California license plate.

I`ve got to ask J. Wyndal Gordon. There are cameras everywhere. My gosh, if I had a nickel for every time I was making a red turn at the wrong -- a right turn at the wrong time and they snapped me. Right? So why don`t they have a picture of this guy? I mean, he`s in the middle of nowhere. It`s not like he`s driving in a place where it`s like the 405 freeway, where it`s the most traveled freeway in America. He`s in the middle of nowhere. I mean, wouldn`t they be able to catch him on a camera at this point?

GORDON: Well, I`m hopeful, but they just -- they said earlier that he had a two-day start on the law enforcement or the investigation. So within that period of time, no one even knew to be on the lookout for this man. So by today, yes, they`re going to have -- there will be places where people will be more on the lookout, thanks to shows like THE JANE VELEZ- MITCHELL SHOW. Certainly, he`s being exposed to the world. But prior to that...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We want to find this man. If you see him, do not approach him. He`s considered extremely dangerous. Call 911. Figure out where he is, call 911. Do not approach.

On the other side, a judge now saying, "Hey, there is a new Jodi Arias, except that she was caught before she could harm anyone." You will not believe what cops say this very petite and innocent woman was plotting. It will blow your mind, on the other side.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He would be tied up, and he`d be sitting there. And there are needles where she would slowly put them into his hands and fingertips until he finally cracked and gave her the number.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He loads the shovels, the tape, and the needles into your trunk, correct?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s correct.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He would be tied up, and he`d be sitting there. And there are needles.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why did you go over to her house?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because she kept calling me. (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The first former flame to come forward testified that last spring, Wu asked him to break another ex`s legs, kick him in the groin and then kill him. Wu was apparently mad that her ex had broken up with her...


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Prosecutors getting ready to put another beautiful young California woman on trial, accused of plotting to kill her ex- boyfriends, plural, yes, with an "S" on the end. Prosecutors say she would have been the next Jodi Arias, had she not been caught.

Twenty-two-year-old Barbara Wu, an unlikely suspect -- Look at her. She looks like a young child almost -- is accused of planning to have her ex-boyfriends murdered. Prosecutors say she wanted two former flames killed and asked two other ex-boyfriends to help her carry out those murders.

The first guy to come forward said Wu wanted him to break her ex- boyfriend`s legs, kick him in the groin, and then kill him, all because this guy had broken up with her over e-mail.

Once Wu was arrested, another ex who feared he was a potential target told cops Wu tried to get him to do the same thing and help murder another boyfriend three years earlier. Here`s what that guy said in a hearing.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He would be tied up, and he`d be sitting there. And there are needles where she would slowly put them into his hands, his fingertips until he finally cracked and gave her the number.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Gee. Wu`s attorney said she never had any intention of actually carrying out the alleged plans, but a judge isn`t buying that explanation. So now this petite, demure young woman is headed to trial. I`m going to talk with her attorney in just a second.

But first, straight out to California and Richard De Atley, reporter for the "Press Enterprise."

Thanks for joining us. You`ve been all over this crazy case. What do you know?

RICHARD De Atley, REPORTER, "PRESS ENTERPRISE" (via phone): Well, the case was -- these two incidents, which are three years apart but had similarities as you pointed out. Both instances, where they talked to the -- it is alleged she wanted the current boyfriend to help her murder -- kidnap, murder, torture and murder the former boyfriend, the most recent former boyfriend.

And in fact, the 2010 case, that person came forward when he read about the 2013 charges in media, thought it was him because there was such similarities. Went to authorities and then found out no, this happened in 2013. And the authorities, police who interviewed him recognized they had yet another case of solicitation of murder.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow! So look at her. She looks like a child posing with, you know, just innocence and but you know, we learned one thing in the Jodi Arias case: looks can be deceiving. Now in one of the alleged plots, the ex-boyfriend claims Wu told him they would whack the former flame over the head, then take his ATM card and torture him in order to get the PIN number. And then, once they got that PIN number, they would kill him.

Again, here is one of the suspect mystery exes telling the judge the details of the alleged plot that this woman allegedly suggested he carry out.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He would be tied up, and he would be sitting there, and there were needles where she would slowly put into his hands, his fingertips until he finally cracked and gave her the number.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, one man she allegedly tried to recruit for murder got so freaked out he went to the cops and he talked to them and then he agreed to wear a wire for the cops and purportedly catch Wu on tape saying she wanted to kidnap, break the legs, stomp on the groin of her ex and then kill him.

Not only that. This is the scariest part. This is when I said, "Whoa." She allegedly said she wanted to "go Virginia Tech." Now, we are referring, of course, to the horrific shooting at that college, where 32 people were tragically gunned down and killed by a madman who then committed suicide. That`s very serious stuff to be saying, "I want to go Virginia Tech."

Straight out to our very special guest, the lawyer for this suspect, Barbara Wu. So Rajan Maline, thank you for joining us. What explanation do you have for the charges against her?

RAJAN MALINE, ATTORNEY FOR BARBARA WU: Well, it came up because the current boyfriend went to the -- he didn`t go to the police; he actually was called in regarding another investigation, regarding the egging of the ex-boyfriend`s car.

Our theory is that he manufactured the majority of this story because he wanted to get himself out of trouble. But the words that he`s saying, even he did not believe -- even though he said my client said those words, he did not believe them, because the so-called plot is so preposterous, so ridiculous that he did not believe it.

And that`s the heart of this case, Jane. The idea that this was actually going to happen was not the intent of my client, whether she said these words or not. The intent was not to do any physical harm to him. There is -- and that is required under the law. And...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me -- let me ask you a question. I want to bring in our expert panel on this and then we`ll get back to you. Because I think you raised an important point.

It would be one thing if one person said, if Barbara Wu told them, oh, you know, let`s murder plot, blah, blah, blah, but two people have now come forward. Plus, as we`ve been discussing, one of the exes told prosecutors Wu took it to another level. And she actually, allegedly -- let`s give her her day in court -- but she allegedly starting putting supplies, he said, to carry out a killing in his car, quote unquote, "just in case." Let`s listen to that.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She loads up the shovels, the tape and the needles into your car, correct?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s correct.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s go straight out to the Lion`s Den. When does threatening chatter like saying, "Oh, I could kill you," which people say all the time, cross the line into a crime? And I will start with Joe Episcopo.

JOE EPISCOPO, ATTORNEY: Well, first of all, there is no crime that I can see here, based on any of this evidence. You have to do something else besides talk about it. And I don`t think you have that. So there`s no crime. This case should be dismissed pretrial.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait, wait, wait, wait, whoa, whoa, wait, wait. Joe, Joe, Joe, Joe, Joe. Didn`t you just hear the attorney on tape say, "So she asked you to put certain items into a car just in case, a shovel, a this, a that?" That`s not just talk.

EPISCOPO: I still don`t -- no, I don`t think that`s enough. That`s not enough to make it a full-fledged crime. It should be dismissed pretrial.

It`s like a conspiracy. Just because you talk about doing something, you actually have to do something a bit more positive, something more active, paying money, carrying out a promise, doing a favor in return for having this done. Putting something in your car...



EPISCOPO: ... is not a crime.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: In this day and age -- in this day and age, where we have violent incidents where the gun is a great equalizer and somebody with a semiautomatic can wipe out a lot of people, I think we have to be hyper vigilant about people making threats. But what do you think, J. Wyndal?

GORDON: I agree with her lawyer. I think the case is really kind of silly. Even the lawyer, he didn`t say that. He didn`t use the world "silly." I think the case is silly. She was obviously ranting. She was disgruntled and she -- you know...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, she did it twice, according to the allegations. And it was years apart. That`s what concerns me.

And I want to give her a fair hearing, but it seems like all of you guys are saying nothing to see here. Well, guess what? The prosecutors see something. That`s why she`s going on trial. So think about it.

We`re going to take a short break. On the other side, we`re going to continue this debate. Although I`m the only one debating at this point. And we`ll be right back.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why did you go over to her house and have sex with her?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because she kept calling me.



(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She guarded the door with a knife. She tried to attack me with the knife. And that`s all I remember.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now one of the exes of this Barbara Wu says that he and Wu vandalized one former lover`s car, and here`s a photo presented in court of the alleged damage. Oh, that`s bad.

OK. He also claims that he helped Barbara Wu post a fake sex ad on Craigslist where they pretended to be the ex. Let`s listen to this.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What did this posting on Craigslist say?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Something along the lines of trying to de-stress during finals and I`m down to do anything.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: So Rajan Maline, thank you for joining us. You`re the attorney for the suspect, Barbara Wu, who is set to go on trial. What -- what is all this about, the car vandalism and the Craigslist ad?

MALINE: Well, the only -- the only person that`s saying my client had anything to do with that is the -- we`ll call him the current boyfriend who is now an ex, of course. But he -- he`s the only one that`s saying my client had anything to do with these types of activities. The egging of the car, the Craigslist ad.

But remember, we`re talking about a Craigslist ad. We`re talking about egging a car. We`re not talking about murder; we`re not talking about killing. And that`s what he was unable to articulate in our preliminary hearing.

Because nobody is saying that there`s any evidence that there was any real intent by anybody to harm anybody. And that`s what I think we`re missing.

And if I could just comment on one of your earlier guests -- I think it was Joe -- who indicated that you need something more. You actually don`t need something more than words. My client is charged with solicitation, which only requires words. But in addition to the words, you do need the specific intent.

So the person saying that they want somebody else to help them kill somebody, they have to have the intent to kill that person. And that`s what`s lacking here.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, you know, people have made comparisons to Jodi Arias, and they`ve actually said that this woman has certain similarities, like the alleged talk of suicide, the alleged fixation on ex-boyfriends. And the prosecutors even said if they hadn`t caught her, she could have become the next Jodi Arias. So Rajan, that`s pretty serious. I want to give you a quick opportunity -- we`re almost out of time -- to respond to that.

MALINE: Sure. It is serious, but look at the earlier case. You mentioned the -- another person came forward and said the same thing happened, the same things were happening in 2010. Well, I think that`s the best evidence that my client had no intent to do anything, because that person is still around. There was never my harm done to that person. These are ranting and ravings possibly of a scorned young woman. Obviously love can create emotions that -- that are not...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, they say hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. I consider that a sexist comment, but I also know that, if Jodi Arias, who`s walking about saying, "I`m going to flash somebody`s throat and stab him 29 times," it was, "Oh, you petite little demure thing. You`re not going to really do that." And guess what? She really did that.

But I want to also say that Barbara Wu deserves her day in court. And I think she`s got a very good attorney to defend her. We`ll follow this case, and we`ll see what unfolds.

On the other side, we`re not talking about solicitation. We`re talking about actual murder -- a 14-year-old boy murdered and now a very young boy on trial for the killing. Did he do it or did his dad do it or did they both do it?

Breaking news on the other side.


JOSH GOUKER, CONVICTED KILLER: I know what you`re doing. You`re trying to make microscopic little holes in this (EXPLETIVE DELETED) that I didn`t even give a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) about two years ago. So how can I tell you the exact thing now when I really didn`t give a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) then?

I`m going to (EXPLETIVE DELETED) but I lied this whole (EXPLETIVE DELETED) time except since arraignment. Since arraignment forward, I`ve told you I`ve done it. I admitted everything I`ve done. I`ve been sentenced for it -- life in prison.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He wanted an eye for an eye, and he went to talk his son into killing Trey.

GOUKER: I killed him for stealing from me and for keeping on stealing (EXPLETIVE DELETED). It just felt right.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did he say what the alibi was?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was making a sex tape I think with Trey`s mother.

GOUKER: I know it sounds monstrous and all that (EXPLETIVE DELETED). But it`s not. If we was in the Old Testament, it would be the same thing.

I don`t deny nothing I`m saying. I`m a (EXPLETIVE DELETED), you know what I mean.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, the mother of a murdered boy driven to tears inside court as the accused baby-faced killer sits just a few feet away from her. Today, the jury saw gruesome photos of her 14-year-old son`s abandoned dead body. These photos so graphic we cannot show them to you.

Will the jury buy a witness`s claim that a demonic dad, a monster dad -- I call him hell dad -- manipulated his teenage son into killing his stepbrother in cold blood? Or is the angel-faced defendant a victim of his own father, as well? Ok.

There`s the interrogation of the young defendant with a cap on. He looks like, you know, a young rapper or just another teenager. But some say this kid is a monster. Listen to this young defendant claim he would do anything, anything to be with and win the approval of his very violent ex-con father.


JOSH YOUNG, ON TRIAL FOR MURDER: I love my dad more than anybody in this world and I would rather be with him than anybody in this world. I would rather be with my dad than be anywhere else.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: According to cops that teenage boy, Josh Young -- there he is, the young defendant, brutally beat his stepbrother with a bat and then dumped the body behind the local high school. But detectives say Little Josh, this one, is a bad apple who didn`t fall far from the tree -- namely Big Josh, his dad. While he stands trial for complicity to murder and murdering his stepbrother Trey, his dad, Big Josh -- ok, Josh Gouker, this ex-con you`re looking at right here -- he`s already convicted for that very murder and is serving life in prison.

So that`s right, the accused killer, the convicted murderer, the victim, and the victim`s mom all lived under the same roof. The guy who was convicted of murder was married to the woman whose son got murdered. The question is did the wife`s husband kill the boy? Or did the wife`s husband`s son kill the boy or did both the wife`s husband and the wife`s husband`s son kill her son?

You won`t believe this story, it`s incredible because the husband is having sex with the wife while the boy is being murdered possibly, in order to establish an alibi. Sick.

Now a fellow inmate says Big Josh -- this guy, the convicted stepfather -- told him that he talked to his son and convinced Little Josh into murdering Trey and even added that they didn`t have to try very hard, because Little Josh is a demon child and despised his stepbrother.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Trey`s mom had an abortion of his child. He wanted an eye for an eye. He went to talk his son into killing Trey. He said he didn`t have to do much persuasion, because his son was a demon child. That he was more than willing to do it. He said that his son despised Trey as much as he despised Trey.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. So did Little Josh lure his stepbrother to the lake and beat him with a slugger -- a baseball bat on -- daddy`s orders? Call me, 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297.

Straight out to "The Lion`s Den" -- I just want to get a sense from all of you. It`s a convoluted case. Everybody is living under the same roof. Tanya Acker, what do you think happened?

TANYA ACKER, ATTORNEY: Look, I think that there`s no question, Jane, that we`re talking about a twisted, tormented family situation. I don`t have a hard time believing frankly that Gouker tried to talk his son or did possibly talk his son into murdering Trey. That very well may have happened. Josh told that story shortly after the killing.

What`s so disturbing here, and what really troubles me about trying this kid as an adult, that if ever there were a case where a defendant could be shown to be under the influence of somebody who is manipulating him, you know, kids want to impress their parents. He wants to impress his father. The fact that we`re trying this young man as an adult, even if he did these things, he did them under the guidance and tutelage of his father and he needs help. He does not need to go to jail and be treated like an adult.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you know, I would tend to agree with you, except if somebody has become a sadistic killer, there`s a very good chance that they might kill again. And if he was poisoned by his dad, who has such a long record -- you`re seeing pictures of him that date back to when he is a young, thin, almost teenager and then slowly evolving into the overweight middle-aged man that he is now. There he is, you see him changing. That`s how many mug shots he has. You see him getting older and older.

But Jayne Weintraub, it`s possible that this baby-faced defendant is not as innocent as he looks. I mean his own father called him a demon child.

JAYNE WEINTRAUB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it`s possible. The father also confessed to the murder. But the issue here legally now, Jane, is the child is the one that`s on trial. The prosecutor doesn`t seem to have a theory of how this murder happened, when this murder happened or why this murder happened, because a medical examiner has already testified that the murder probably happened the way the father said so to begin with, with a pipe, not the baseball bat, as alleged with the child.

There`s so many inconsistencies and it seems the bulk of the evidence is from inmates who have nothing to do but lie. As a matter of fact in federal court, very often the judge will read an instruction that says that the kind of testimony from inmates should be considered with greater caution and care because it is inherently unreliable.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, on the other side -- on the other side, we`re going to hear more of the testimony of those inmates, what they had to say.

We also have a very special guest, the stepmother of the 14-year-old victim. We want to ask her what she thinks of this very, very twisted case. Stay right there.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You admitted to hurting some animals during that statement, didn`t you?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You admitted to beating a dog to death?

GOUKER: I mean, it was just one whack. You all make it sound more sinister than it was. (EXPLETIVE DELETED) it was broke. It was a broke dog.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You beat a dog to death?

GOUKER: Yes. I`ve been sentenced for it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You beat a cat, killed a cat and threw it away?




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did he tell you that he put his son up to kill Trey?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said that he didn`t have to do much persuasion because his son was a demon child.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to bring in our two very special guests, the Zwickers, the father of the victim and the stepmother of the victim. Thank you for joining us tonight. I want to start with Mrs. Zwicker and ask you whether you believe that the inmates essentially seem to be saying that the father, Big Josh, said "Hey, I`m going to take the hit because I`ve got an alibi, a sex tape, and then after my son gets off easy because he`s a minor, I`ll get off just on perjury." Do you think that Big Josh convinced Little Josh to kill your loved one?

TERI ZWICKER, TREY ZWICKER`S STEPMOTHER: I believe they was both involved, just by what I`ve seen in the courtroom today alone and yesterday by witnesses and people that don`t even know the family, their statements that they made, I believe that yes, they were both involved.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: They were both involved, but what exactly do you think happened? Because these inmates are saying that the dad didn`t physically kill the child, they seem to be implying that the dad planted the seed in his son`s mind and that the young defendant, who is currently on trial, did the actual killing. What do you believe happened, Mrs. Zwicker?

TERI ZWICKER: In my own opinion, I believe the dad went down there and started it and Little Josh finished it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So you believe they were both there?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mr. Zwicker, and again, my condolences to you. My heart goes out to you. I know this is so difficult.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: This man is evil. I mean do you get a sense that the main villain here is the father, who is clearly just pure evil in my opinion?

Why sure. He`s about as evil as I`ve ever seen. He`s proved that to all the viewers around America time and time again. And unfortunately, that evil had a child; and now we get to meet him.

And you know, I don`t know exactly the way I believe how it went down or anything like that. I know the two were involved. I`ve seen what I`ve seen. I`ve been around these people for a very long time. I`ve known of Josh Young and I`ve known of Josh Gouker for many years, watched them both and tried to keep my distance from both. I just feel strongly they were both there together.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So you believe they`re equally responsible and they should both go to prison for life, the father and son, sir?

TERRY ZWICKER: Yes, ma`am, I sure do.


Stay right there. We`re going to take a short break, and we`re just getting started. Extraordinary testimony today.


Time for Pet of the Day -- send your pet pics to

Kylie, you are so smiley, Kylie. What a beauty you are. And Sheba, you rock. Look at that patch on your eye. Yes, you are happening. And Bella, I`m classic, I have a classic look. I don`t need clothes, I don`t need a leash. I need nothing. And Mae and Lilly, they just make me silly. They`re so beautiful. Yes you are.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was going to -- he was going to man up and take the blame for it because he had an alibi, that he was going to try to get his son off and then later fight his case back in court and just get hit with the perjury because he had an alibi.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did he say what the alibi was?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was making a sex tape, I think, with Trey`s mother.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. A very special guest, Mark Hall, the attorney for Big Josh Gouker, the ex-con father of the current young defendant. Sir, with all due respect and I don`t blame attorneys, everybody needs representation, but do you agree or disagree that this man is the face of evil? I mean, just the idea that he is purportedly having sex with his wife to create an alibi to create an alibi --

MARK HALL, JOSH GOUKER`S ATTORNEY: Well, I think that -- Mr. Gouker - -


HALL: I don`t condone the actions that he pled guilty to or any of the situation that, you know, has caused the circumstances for this crime. But, you know, I don`t judge them as individuals. I try to represent them in a court of law.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. Just for the record, he purportedly allegedly is having sex with his wife and videotaping that sex in order to create an alibi for himself knowing that her son is going to be murdered that night possibly, allegedly, purportedly by his son. Wow -- that`s something right out of the Marquis de Sade, "120 Days of Sodom" as far as I`m concerned.

Let me ask you, Mark, you represent Big Josh. What do you think? Do you think he killed him as he`s pleaded guilty to? Do you think the son did it for him? Do you think he convinced the son to do it? Do you think they were both there? What happened in your opinion?

Well I think that the testimony that Mr. Gouker gave during his guilty plea is probably the closest thing to the truth that we`re ever going to know. I think that the evidence that we were given in discovery and that`s what`s come out in the trial for Mr. Young, it really doesn`t support -- there`s no physical evidence that puts Mr. Young there. Both of the medical examiners basically testified consistently that the injuries occurred the way that Mr. Gouker described them and at least the defense`s expert, Dr. Nichols, testified that only one person committed that. And the commonwealth medical examiner that testified today indicated that even she didn`t think that there was a bat that was used.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me say this -- this is a yes or now because we`re out of time. If the boy is found not guilty, will the father then say, "Oh, I falsely confessed and try to get out of prison?"

HALL: It`s an interesting point. I think that Mr. Gouker has pled guilty. I don`t think that there`s any chance that he would get out of prison for that. So no, I don`t think that there`s any chance he would get out of prison.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I hope he doesn`t. Thank you so much. Thank you for stopping by. More on the other side.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: We need to study the criminal mind and that`s why I`ve just written this new book about the Jodi Arias case that hits August 20. It`s called "Exposed: the secret life of Jodi Arias". A portion of the profits go to charity.