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Massive Manhunt Under Way for James DiMaggio; Al Qaeda Conference Call?

Aired August 7, 2013 - 20:00   ET


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Erin, thanks very much.

Good evening, everyone.

There's breaking news. Late new developments in the search for a 16- year-old girl who could be in the hands of a murderer.

Also tonight, tearing down the house of horrors. Three young women held here, tortured year after year after year. Tonight how a neighborhood in Cleveland comes to grips with it all as they try to exorcise the demon who lived next door.

And later, the couple who chose prayer over medicine for one sick child then another, then ended up burying both. Some are now asking, why did it take not one but two dead children for the law to get serious?

We're "Keeping Them Honest" tonight.

We begin, though, with the breaking news. What looks to be a big development in the search first state-wide now nationwide for James DiMaggio. The man that we're about to show you this picture up on the screen. That's him.

A young woman's life could be at stake. Her mother is dead. Now we're learning her brother might be as well. Now his car may have been spotted. DiMaggio, who's believed to be driving a blue four-door Nissan Versa, is wanted for murder in the killing of Christina Anderson whose body was found in his burned out home outside San Diego.

Authorities suspect he now has her daughter with him, 16-year-old Hanna and possibly 8-year-old Ethan. However this afternoon a law enforcement source told us that other charred remains found at the house are consistent with those of a young boy.

DiMaggio was a friend of the family. Now last night at a vigil Hanna and Ethan's dad, Brett Anderson, made an emotional plea.


BRETT ANDERSON, FATHER: The gentleman that was a friend of ours for a long time, he's taken everything. Hanna will come back. And Ethan and Tina, I love you both. We all love you. And I know everybody is here for support of all three of them, and I want to thank you all. God bless.


COOPER: As you might imagine this story is unfolding fast.

Paul Vercammen joins us now from San Diego with the latest.

So the spotting of this vehicle. What do we know about this, Paul?

PAUL VERCAMMEN, CNN SENIOR PRODUCER: Well, Anderson, we know that Oregon State Authorities have issued a statement saying in their hedging terms that first, they believe the car was spotted near Alturas, California. That's in the extreme northeast corner of the state, and the vehicle was going northbound.

Then a second reported sighting of that vehicle in question, that in Lake View, Oregon. An Amber Alert has now been issued in the state of Oregon for the vehicle that they have been searching for for the past three days -- Anderson.

COOPER: So do we know exactly what time the vehicle was spotted?

VERCAMMEN: Yes, we do. We understand in Lake View, Oregon, that it was at 2:00 this afternoon and previous to that was the spotting in Alturas, California, with the direction of the vehicle being north bound. That would be consistent with the direction you would travel to get into Oregon and they say possibly it could have gone toward Nevada at that point, as well.

COOPER: And I want to try to keep these pictures up on the screen as much as possible, just in case anybody out there has seen either of these kids or the man believed to be holding at least one of them right now.

Paul, are authorities concerned he may be trying to leave the country?

VERCAMMEN: Well, they are very concerned about him on a myriad of levels, Anderson. Number one, they say he is still dangerous. They say they found weapons at his house. They will not confirm that he is armed right now but he's a fugitive who has been AWOL now for three days. And also back in his past, he does have a misdemeanor conviction for fleeing a police officer, that's back in Texas in 1995. So yes, they are extremely worried about him.

Right now he would be considered a colossal flight risk, even if he were arrested, so therefore when they issued a warrant today for his arrest for the murder of the mother, they made sure attached to that would be a $1 million bond should he be taken into custody. They just leveled one charge at him, the homicide, but likely to follow, a second homicide charge, possibly kidnapping charges and arson charge, and a cruelty to animals charge because, Anderson, also burned in the fire was a dog. So a whole host of charges against this man who they consider to be very dangerous. COOPER: And as I said, the remains that were found in the house were consistent or other remains were consistent with those of an 8- year-old child. Do we know much about the relationship between this man and the family? I mean, I understand he was kind of life-long friends of -- or at least acquaintances of the family?

VERCAMMEN: No, it is friends, Anderson. Very strong relationship, possibly even best friends. They say that Mr. DiMaggio, Jim DiMaggio, and the father Brett Anderson, had known each other for more than 20 years. He knew the children since their births and in fact the relationship was so close that they called him uncle.

So an extremely close relationship. So what's being alleged here right now is absolutely the ultimate betrayal -- Anderson.

COOPER: It's just horrible.

Paul Vercammen, thank you.

Again, the breaking news. A vehicle has been spotted. Another Amber Alert issued. Let's dig deeper now into what might motivate someone to abduct the child and vitally how to track, locate and ultimately separate a predator from his or her intended prey.

We're joined by former FBI profiler Mary Ellen O'Toole also Mark Klaas, founder of the KlaasKids Foundation, he lost his daughter Polly almost 20 years ago.

Mark, this story is obviously just horrific. When you saw Hannah's dad deliver that message to her, urging her to try to make a run for it if she was able to, if she got the chance, what went through your mind? I mean, it's an important message that he try to get to her and to the man believed to be holding her.

MARK KLAAS, FOUNDER, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: Sure, I think he did a tremendous job. First, he appealed directly to the kidnapper or his daughter and then he gave her an action plan. And I think that it's very important that people -- and she listen to this because she doesn't have to just wait around to be rescued.

What she has to do is find ways to keep herself alive until that moment comes when she can extricate herself from the situation. That could take days, as it took my friend Missy Sanchez or it could even take years as it took women up in Cleveland earlier this year. But she has to find a way to stay alive and then effect her escape when she has an opportunity.

COOPER: Mary Ellen, what do you -- what's your gut tell you about this case, about the suspect? I mean, from your experience, what causes someone to do something like this?

MARY ELLEN O'TOOLE, FORMER FBI PROFILER: Well, there's a couple of things here. But first looking at the case based on the available information. The crime scene behavior itself appears to be very impulsive and extremely high-risk and that would suggest to me that something occurred very recently in terms that probably had something to do with Hannah, and it may have made him feel like he wasn't going to see her again or that relationship was going to be cut off.

And -- that he saw the mother as the person that came between him and Hannah, but the behavior itself, on top of that, is behavior that, again, doesn't indicate long-term planning. It really was a disorganized crime scene. So now he's committed murder, arson, kidnapping, and now he's on -- he's probably the most wanted fugitive in the U.S. today.

So his thinking is going to go downhill. It's going to debilitate because he is now having to come to grips with what he's done, so his paranoia is increasing and now he's realizing that there really is no turning back. So the message, really, if I were working on this case, the message would be, look, Jim, what happened is horrible but you have control of this situation because you can -- you can make a big difference in what happens to Hannah.

And we know you care about her in your own way. You can control what happens to her by releasing her.

COOPER: And you have no doubt he's following this via the media?

O'TOOLE: I really do think he is. It may not be via television, unless he has access to television, but that's his only means to monitor the investigation. So I believe very strongly he is monitoring any source of news that he can.

COOPER: And so the message to him, which you're trying to get out, is what is done is done but he has control of this in terms of what happens to Hannah and he can start to make this right?

O'TOOLE: He can start to make it right. It has snowballed and we may even be able to persuade him and I hope if he's listening we can that it did get out of control and we get that. And right now there's one person and one person only who can start to bring it back under control, and that is you, Jim.

And by doing so, you need to pull off to a restaurant, let Hannah go, pull off to the side of the road, let Hannah go, but you do have control over how this thing ends up.

COOPER: And Mark, you would certainly second that. I mean, the best scenario for him is to let -- to let this young girl go?

KLAAS: Well, there is no escape, Anderson. If he's in that vehicle and he is, in fact, headed north on Highway 5, which is what this sounds like. He's not going to be able to get away with anything. So absolutely, let this young girl go. Let the police find you or turn yourself in and do exactly as Mary Ellen said, start to make this thing right.

COOPER: Mary Ellen, you said -- you talked about the sort of the chaotic crime scene. The idea that someone would burn down their house. That seems to be an indication of kind of no way out, not going back.

O'TOOLE: It does. There is multiple reasons we see that and another reason and maybe one of the primary reasons here could be to destroy evidence, and by delaying identification of the victim's bodies, he felt that that would give him time and distance. The problem with that thinking, though, is that when you start a fire, there are large flames, the fire department is going to respond more quickly than if you just quietly and secretly got away.

But he chose not to do that. So again that would suggest to me based on that and other things that his thinking was much more impulsive and reckless, and that kind of thinking is going to only deteriorate.

COOPER: I should -- Paul Vercammen just spoke to the sheriff who said that the lead on that vehicle did not pan out. So that certainly some bad news there because that was the first bit of an actual lead that they had had. I'm going to talk to the sheriff a little bit later on.

But, Mary Ellen, you made an important point earlier and I just want to go into a little bit more depth on it. You know, in stocking cases often we focus on the person who's doing the stalking and their victim, the person that they're focused on, but there's often danger for a third party, for -- not necessarily the intended victim but somebody who is perceived as being in the way.

O'TOOLE: There is. And that's often overlooked as a dynamic. If the stalker believes that immediate person, that person in the middle, is going to come between him and the object of his affections, no matter how worth they are then that person in the middle could be in danger.

COOPER: And we've seen the death of this young girl's mother. Again we don't know --

O'TOOLE: We have.

COOPER: I don't want to speculate. We don't know what the situation is that led to all of this or why he has taken this young girl, allegedly. There is still a lot more left to know.

Mark, when you see a case like this, what is the message that, you know, parents out there, that everybody should just take away from this?

KLAAS: Well, that this is not about strangers. I mean, so many times in my career as a child advocate I run into these cases where the evil Uncle Billy or the evil Uncle Jim who's lurking in the background is the one that in fact goes after the child and creates all of the chaos and the mayhem and oftentimes the murder.

Therefore we shouldn't be talking to our kids about strangers. We should be talking to our kids about making correct decisions and then if something feels bad, they need to put distance between themselves and whatever that is, and this is indicated in this case. And then go and tell a trusted adult what's going on so that they can intervene and try to make things right.

COOPER: Mark Klaas, appreciate you being on. Mary Ellen O'Toole as well.

And again, we began just 12 minutes ago with optimistic news, breaking news that a vehicle had been spotted and that an Amber Alert had been issued. The vehicle believed to match the description of the suspect. Now our Paul Vercammen talking to the sheriff saying that lead has not panned out. So that's some -- obviously a setback for this case, but authorities are very much wanting the public's help in this, appealing to anybody out there who has seen Mr. DiMaggio or has seen Hannah to call 911, to call operators.

That is suspect, Jim DiMaggio, right there believed to be in -- to have with him this girl, Hannah, and possibly a young boy, 8-year- old, her brother, but again, remains were also found in the house earlier and DNA is being tested on that, on those remains.

Let us know what you think, you can follow me on Twitter right now, @andersoncooper.

Coming up next, there's some kind of an al Qaeda conference call, an actual conference call, a group chat sparked that massive global terror alert. We'll talk to the reporter whose sources yes, and a skeptic as well.

We'll be right back.


COOPER: More now on the search for 16-year-old Hannah Anderson and possibly her brother Ethan and the alleged killer James DiMaggio who may have one or both children with him. Late this evening we've got a report from authorities a car was spotted that might have been the suspect's. Just moments later that report was dialed back.

Paul Vercammen is monitoring all the developments. He joins us now.

So, Paul, authorities now saying from what we talked to the sheriff that that vehicle is not the suspect's vehicle, correct?

VERCAMMEN: Yes, they have dialed back, as you said. They said that this lead just frankly did not pan out, that despite Oregon authorities. And they did hedge, by the way, saying that possibly a sighting in northern California and they believed a possible sighting just across the border in Oregon.

But again, saying right now, Anderson, that that lead did not pan out. As you can imagine everyone here on pins and needles. There is a sense of urgency here. This is a desperate search and they do believe, as we stated earlier, that Jim DiMaggio is a very, very dangerous fugitive.

COOPER: All right. Paul, I appreciate the update.

A short time ago, right before we went to air, I spoke extensively with the San Diego County sheriff, Bill Gore, whose office is spearheading the investigation. Sheriff, what's the latest? Do you have any idea where James DiMaggio might be right now?

SHERIFF BILL GORE, SAN DIEGO COUNTY, CALIFORNIA: No. We don't have a lot of clues in this case so far, Anderson. That's why we're asking for the public's help and we appreciate your efforts in getting the word out. You know, we're -- we need all the eyes and ears out there we can get to try to find the -- both DiMaggio and hope that these two kids. So -- and bring them back to San Diego County safe and sound.

COOPER: There have been some earlier guidance that he might be in Texas. There was also a report in Canada, but right now there's no information pointing to that, correct?

GORE: No, we have no real good leads that take them any particular place. That's why we're -- you know, we're trying to get -- solicit help from anybody anywhere that might see this car or any individuals involved.

COOPER: And I know the remains that were found in the house were consistent with those of an 8-year-old. Have the results of the DNA testing come back?

GORE: No, no. We expect those to come back hopefully in the next day or two. But yes, they are a small child. We're hoping that Ethan is still out there with Hannah and they'll be returned but, you know, we just don't know at this point in time.

COOPER: Do you know anything about James DiMaggio's connection to the family?

GORE: Well, you know, there's -- we talked to Brett Anderson, the father of the two girls and the ex-husband of Christina, and this is a life-long friend of theirs. They know him very well. And if you saw Brett's appeal last night, you know, he said, Jim, you've taken away so much already. Just please, bring my -- bring my daughter back to me.

So that's our plea, also. Let's not make this any worse than it already is and we're asking everybody out there to keep their eyes open and maybe bring this little girl back to her father.

COOPER: And, I mean, I read that a family friend had said that DiMaggio had some sort of feelings for or crush on the 16-year-old daughter, Hannah. Do you have any information about that?

GORE: Well, we're talking to all her classmates and, you know, we're developing certain stories. We just don't know. There's just a lot of speculation right now. We don't want to go too far out on a limb one direction or the other.


GORE: We know that they were -- they were life-long friends, and we're not exactly sure what that relationship was. We don't know if Hannah is with him willingly or not. We just don't know right now. You know, that's why we use the national emergency alert system to try to get all the people out there looking for this couple, whether they are in this state or in another state.

COOPER: And I want to put James DiMaggio's picture back up on the screen again. If anybody sees this man, what should they do?

GORE: Well, don't try to stop him. Obviously, we suspect him in at least one murder, two murders already. So if they see him, please, you know, try to be observant, get all the information you can and call 911 and police will be there hopefully as soon as they possibly can to take the appropriate action.

But they should not -- citizens should not try to interfere with this person at all. He's already proven he's a pretty dangerous fellow.

COOPER: Well, Sheriff Bill Gore, appreciate your time. Thank you.

GORE: Thank, Anderson. Appreciate your help on this matter.

COOPER: All right. Well, coming up, was it a terrorist conference call that triggered America's global alert? We'll talk about that next.

Also tonight, for 11 years, Michelle Knight was held captive inside Ariel Castro's house. Today she returned to the scene of her nightmare as the house itself was torn down.

Also ahead tonight lawyers say Fort Hood gunman Nidal Hasan is trying to get the death penalty as he represents himself at court martial. We'll tell you why the proceedings abruptly came to a halt today.


COOPER: President Obama got a shout-out from troops today at California's Camp Pendleton when he credited them with taking out Osama bin Laden. He also had a warning for them about the dangers still out there.


BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Al Qaeda affiliates and like-minded extremists still threaten our homeland, still threaten our diplomatic facilities, still threaten our businesses abroad. And we've got to take these threats seriously.


COOPER: Well, signs of that threat have triggered a global terror alert, as you know, but also questions about the bases forward. In other words what exactly got everyone so worked up?

Reporters Eli Lake and Josh Rogin believe they know. Their "Daily Beast" article tonight is headlined "Al Qaeda Conference Call Intercepted by U.S. Officials Sparked Alerts." Some kind of conference call. They quote one U.S. intelligence official describing it this way, quote, "This was like a meeting of the legion of doom."

Josh Rogin joins us along with national security analysts and former Homeland Security advisor Fran Townsend. Franc currently serves in the DHS and CIA external advisory boards.

Josh, good to have you on the program. I know you can only say so much because you want to protect obviously your sources and your concern about balancing your reporting with national security. That being said, CNN has spoken to a number of sources today as well as terrorism experts who say that 20 plus leaders of al Qaeda communicating with each other at the same time on a conference call would be a big departure from how they -- and specifically Zawahiri -- operate. How do you respond?

JOSH ROGIN, SENIOR CORRESPONDENT, THE DAILY BEAST: Sure, let's remember that this intercept of communication between al Qaeda's leadership and Pakistan and their leadership in Yemen was first reported by McClatchy. What we did was basically flushed out the details of that communication and what we learned was that this included representatives and leaders of al Qaeda groups ranging from North Africa to Southeast Asia to you name it.

What some officials have said on background to reporters today is that they took issue with the use of the term conference call. I should -- it's important to note that we withheld many of the details about exactly how al Qaeda pulled off this communication at the request of our sources, but what I'm willing to share with you and your viewers right now was that it was not a phone call.

And in fact, al Qaeda went to extensive means to set up what you might say is like sort of a virtual meeting space. I'd rather not go into a lot more detail than that, and that they took very extensive measures to provide an environment for this meeting that they felt was secure.

Of course, the U.S. intelligence committee was able to crack that security and I guess that's a credit to them.

COOPER: Any idea, Josh, why Zawahiri and al Qaeda would take such a chance communicating like this all together at the same time? We have Peter Bergen, a terrorism analyst, on a couple of nights ago, he said you can look at this as if true a sign of desperation almost that al Qaeda Central is reaching out to all these affiliates saying do something?

ROGIN: Right. Well, what we know is that al Qaeda's leadership in Pakistan uses various methods to communicate with its affiliates. They use couriers carrying thumb drives. They have all sorts of things. But we also know that these conference calls have happened periodically over the years.

Again, this is something that they believed was secure. In this case they turned out to be wrong and it wasn't secure. But this is sort of a meeting of all of the representative to sort of cover up a bunch of broad issues.

So yes, in a sense, they did take a risk in this instance and it backfired but that's not to say that it's unusual for them because, of course, that is exactly what they, the U.S. intelligence committee are doing every day, playing a game of cat and mouse where they try to set up interactions and the U.S. intelligence committee tries to intercept those interactions.



ROGIN: I would also just --

COOPER: Yes. Go ahead.

ROGIN: I would just also quickly say that, you know, that it doesn't necessarily indicate that al Qaeda is desperate. It may indicate that al Qaeda is actually more cohesive in working more on a top down leadership structure and in a more organized fashion than we previously realized.

COOPER: And again, when you're using the term conference call, you're not literally meaning a conference call?

ROGIN: Right. I mean, again, you know, we are not saying whether it was a phone call or a video or Internet or voice or data or whatever. The bottom line here is that, you know, this is considered sort of like a virtual meeting space. It was not a phone call and this was a -- an environment that al Qaeda's leadership set up that other people could plug into and they -- again they went to extensive lengths to try to make sure that it was secure. In this case they seemed to have failed.

COOPER: Right. I want to bring in Fran.

Fran, what's your take in all this?

FRANCES FRAGOS TOWNSEND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CONTRIBUTOR: It's just so counterintuitive to the operational security of al Qaeda. Look, there's lots of ways of communicating and we know that there were a number of things that triggered the alert. So Zawahiri had issued a videotape calling for the release of the Muslim brothers from prison. We knew there had been prison breaks. We knew he hadn't -- he had appointed the head of al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, the Yemen group, as his number two.

There's a whole series of things. So whether or not why you would have needed, in addition to all that, to pull them all together, they understand very well the U.S. government and their allies ability to target their location using their communications.

And so to give the U.S. intelligence committee the opportunity to target people across the world, not just between Pakistan and Yemen, but around the world and locate them would have been a very dangerous thing, and it's not clear to me why that would have been necessary for them to take that risk.

COOPER: Josh, there have been some, you know, reporters, frankly, I've seen raise the question is it possible some of your sources were using you to justify the NSA, coverage of the NSA program or to kind of obscure human intelligence, assets, and saying it was signals intelligence?

ROGIN: Sure, first to Fran's point it's totally true this is one of many and one piece of information in a broad collection that the U.S. intelligence community has engaged in. This meeting was significant according to officials and reports in both "The New York Times" and lots of other outlets because it was where the vague discussion of impending attack was discussed and if you look at the embassy closings around the world it matches the people on the call.

So you can sort of understand why the U.S. government took such a broad approach. As for it being motivations in taking the risk, I can't speak to that. Some of them they take risks on. As far as some of the other reporters linking this to the NSA and Snowden and what have you, it's important to point out the programs disclosed by Snowden are not related to this particular communication particularly intercepted.

They are about collecting information, domestically and it's not really connected. So I think some people may be work inflating those issues where there isn't a strong connection.

COOPER: Fran, how long do you see the embassies being closed for? There have been a number of drone strikes in Yemen, again, we don't know who was hit, how significant they were.

TOWNSEND: Look, I think what they are trying to do is to shatter the operational organization. You're seeing these drone strikes. I think the one person that is key to all of this is the bomb maker in Yemen.

COOPER: Who has not been found as far as we know.

TOWNSEND: As far as we know. So I think he's one of the keys to the feeling they deflated this threat but they will look to take enough operational capability it knocks the legs out before they are comfortable reopening embassies and makes sense to me. There is a number of other things besides drone strikes that will go on, the CIA and U.S. intelligence will be working with foreign allies around the world doing searches and trying to arrest people and it will take place until they feel like they deflated the threat.

COOPER: Fran, good to have you on. Josh, thanks very much for being on the program. Appreciate it.

Let's get some of the latest on the other stories we're following, Isha is here with the 360 Bulletin -- Isha.

ISHA SESAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, the house in Cleveland where Ariel Castro held three women captive was torn down today. Michelle Knight who was held captive for 11 years released balloons outside the house before the demolition. She said she wanted to remind families that other abducted children that there is always hope.

The court martial of admitted Fort Hood gunman, Major Nidal Hasan, is on hold until tomorrow because his backup legal team wants out. Hasan is representing himself, but has defense lawyers to help him. He wants to be sentenced to death and they can't ethically stand by to help.

President Obama has cancelled the trip to Moscow next month for talks with Russian President Vladimir Putin. The White House says there hasn't been enough progress in bilateral relations to hold the summit.

A 360 follow, the two young boys in Canada who were apparently killed by a 100-pound python died of affixation according to preliminary autopsy result. The boys ages 4 and 6 were found dead Monday morning, so very, very sad.

COOPER: Yes, indeed. Thanks very much, Isha. Appreciate it.

Just ahead, they choose prayer over medical care for their children not once but twice, both times with deadly results and now they are facing murder charges. Why did they get off so easy the first time is one question? We're keeping them honest ahead.


COOPER: More than 40 people killed in that fiery train wreck in Canada, next, the major impact on the railroad behind it.


COOPER: A Philadelphia judge today refused to dismiss murder charges against a fundamentalist Christian couple whose infant son died from pneumonia. When their baby got sick in April, Herbert and Catherine Schaible didn't call a doctor or seek any kind of medical treatment. They prayed. This case would be tragic if the facts ended there but they don't. This isn't the first time the Schaible's have been charged in the death of one of their children. They've relied on faith healing before with disastrous result. Here's Gary Tuchman.


GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): At this North Philadelphia cemetery, most of the graves are marked, but not this spot where two small children are buried, two children who would be alive today say authorities if their parents gave them medical care. Herbert and Catherine Schaible are charged with third-degree murder following the death of their 8-month-old son, Brandon, this spring.

SETH WILLIAMS, PHILADELPHIA DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Instead of caring and nurturing him, they ultimately caused his death by praying over his body instead of taking him to the doctor. TUCHMAN: Unbelievably, this isn't the first time this has happened to the Schaibles. In 2009, their 2-year-old son, Kent, died. The parents did not seek medical care to treat him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I tried the previous case two and a half years ago, and the circumstances to that case to this case are eerily similar.

TUCHMAN: In the first case, the Schaibles were found guilty of involuntary manslaughter in the death of Kent. The prosecutor asked for prison time, but the judge instead opted for probation and allowed the couple to move back to the home with their seven other children. The judge did order them to seek medical care for their children in the future. Joanne Pescatore prosecuted the case then and will prosecute this case as well.

(on camera): When the judge gave probation you must have been upset.

JOANNE PESCATORE, PHILADELPHIA ASSISTANT DISTRICT ATTORNEY: I was upset at that and I was upset because I felt they didn't get it and weren't going to get it and here we are standing here again two and a half years later, another one of their children is dead and they still don't get it.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): Which is why they've been charged with a more serious count of third degree murder this time around for the death of their baby, Brandon. What is with these parents? Authorities point to Philadelphia's First Century Gospel Church where the Schaibles belong, a church that declares trust in God alone for physical healing.

(on camera): This church lists many of its core philosophies on its web site. Relevant to this case is one particular belief that I will quote in part. If we are trusting in pill prescription or medication, Satan is able to hinder or victory from God.

(voice-over): So why is this faith healing preached? We wanted to talk to the church's pastors. The daughter of the chief pastor said he didn't want to speak with us.

(on camera): How are you? Good. Is the pastor home?

(voice-over): Herbert Schaibel remains in jail, but Catherine Schaibel has been released to live with her parents. The remaining children are in state custody.

(on camera): Do you feel you did right by God?


TUCHMAN (voice-over): This is Herbert Schaibel's attorney.

BOBBY HOOF, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: He's sad. He's still in a grieving mode. I looked at him this morning. He seems to have lost weight, but in terms of holding up, he's a stand up guy. TUCHMAN: Certainly, that's the most controversial characterization. We wanted to show you pictures of Herbert and Catherine Schaibel's two little boys, but lawyers on both sides say they don't know of any pictures of them in life. All they have are autopsy photos taken shortly before they were buried in their unmarked graves.

(on camera): They say you don't have love for your child because you let two die without medical help.



COOPER: Gary Tuchman joins us live from Philadelphia. Gary, this is so upsetting. How did it play out in court today?

TUCHMAN: Anderson, in Pennsylvania, you have to have evidence of malice to charge third degree murder so when this courthouse today, the two different attorneys for the husband and the wife told the judge there is no malice, there should be no third degree murder charge. But the judge totally rejected that, he said this isn't a close case. He pointed out the case of their first son dying when they thumbed their nose at the law and he says the third degree murder charges will stand and the husband and wife face 20 to 40 years in prison if found guilty of that.

COOPER: Were they in court together?

TUCHMAN: They were in court together. He's in jail and she's out on bond. She was sitting in the back when he walked in. He walked in and looked around, saw her, smiled at her and she looked straight ahead. Her father sitting next to her and he smiled at his son-in-law, a very strange and horrible situation.

COOPER: They have other children. All the other children are in foster care?

TUCHMAN: Seven other children are in the foster care system right now and that reassures a lot of people those children are no longer with those parents.

COOPER: All right, Gary, appreciate the reporting. Joining me now are Arthur Caplan, head of medical ethics at NYU Langone Medical Center and also, Areva Martin, an attorney and children advocate. It's hard not to get furious when you hear this case. People are obviously entitled to religious believes. Parents do not get a religious exemption. It gives them the right neglect their children, do they?

ARTHUR CAPLAN, DIRECTOR, DIVISION OF MEDICAL ETHICS, NYU LANGONE MEDICAL CENTER: Well, the classic phrase, Anderson, is you can make a martyr of yourself. You can't make a martyr of your children for religious beliefs. They do not get a pass. There are a couple exceptions. We do allow parents to say I'm not going to vaccinate my child. So we have built it in. The difference here is you can't say no to therapy. If there is a proven established therapy insulin for diabetes, antibiotics for what this poor child had, the state steps in and says you must treat, no exceptions.

COOPER: So just antibiotics would have saved this child's life?

CAPLAN: Would have saved the child's life. What the -- when you get a case like this when you're in the hospital, you want to appeal a refusal to appealed care. You go to the judge. What they will look at is do you have a history of proven treatment. Can you say it's very, very likely to work? If you can hit the standard and the antibiotics would work here, you'll get a court order to over ride and I'm sure the judge was horrified they agreed to use medicine and didn't do it.

COOPER: It's hard to believe this could have happened twice. The prosecutor in the first case, in fact, she said she knew this would happen again. Did the system fail here?



CAPLAN: It did -- you know --

COOPER: Sorry, Areva, go ahead.

MARTIN: I'm sorry. We had these kids placed at home with parents who had proven they were not going to give their children medical care. We have weird exception laws in states particularly Pennsylvania saying faith healing an exception to giving your children care, but not when there is bodily harm or a potential for death like in this case.

I think the child protective services, the court system, everyone failed these children and it's just a shame we are looking at the death of a second child when the courts had an opportunity to remove these children in the first instance and avoid the death of the second child.

COOPER: Areva, from a legal standpoint if they are known as loving and caring parents without malice, wouldn't it be hard to prove the third degree murder charges, that they intentionally killed their children?

MARTIN: Well, Anderson, I take exception to this characterization of caring and loving parents. They went through this a first time. They were on probation for ten years. They stood in court with the death of first child and said if any of our children get sick, we will seek medical care. They completely ignored the orders of the court from the first case saying you cannot ignore medical treatment your kids need. I don't think there will be an issue whether they intended to kill their child.

They knew -- there will be testimony from the assistant pastor where he told them to call the probation officer and apparently, the dad said if I do then they will intervene. You know, somehow I'm going against my faith and God. So I don't think there is going to be any reservation in anybody's mind that these people knew what they were doing and taking calculated risk and this child could die.

COOPER: Art, I've heard you say you see cases like this all the time. Is that really true?

CAPLAN: You do see them. I don't want to suggest they are common, but they do come up. Sometimes people say I don't want to treat on religious grounds, sometimes they want alternative medicine. Again, and again, what we see prosecutors are unwilling to be tough on the first death and that's what leads to the problems because child social services, Anderson, in a city like Philly, they are overwhelmed.

They can barely keep up with the harm people are doing directly to kids, much less monitor a family like this. We do see them. You got to be tough with them and assistant this is child abuse and neglect and you can do what you want as an adult with religious believes. You can't sacrifice your child in this way.

MARTIN: Can I just say one thing --

COOPER: Go ahead.

MARTIN: One point, Anderson, about the first amendment and constitution often comes up in the arguments and there is this tension between the parents' right to raise the child versus the states right to take action when children are in danger. I just want to say in these cases. What about the rights of the children? Yes, parents have their first amendment right, but children have rights, too. They have the right to be safe and to be protected from this kind of harm.

COOPER: Areva Martin, good to have you on. Art, as well, thanks.

Just ahead, new developments, new information after several somewhat conflicting reports in the search for 16-year-old Hanna Anderson and possibly her brother, Ethan, and the alleged killer James DiMaggio who may have one or both children with him. Some new updates and details ahead.


COOPER: A quick update for you, new information in the search for 16-year-old Hanna Anderson, possibly her brother, Ethan, and the alleged killer, James DiMaggio who may have one or both children with him. The latest centers on a possible sighting of DiMaggio's car in Northern California and action being taken right now further north in Oregon.

Paul Vercammen continues working the story for us. So Paul, a lot of conflicting reports. What are you learning now?

PAUL VERCAMMEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, in a story that's already had absolutely so many bizarre twists, now we have what seems to be dueling agencies here. There have been two separate agencies who are checking out and again they hedge what they believe to be or possible sightings of the car that DiMaggio is driving that is at the center of this amber alert.

In Modot County in California no less than the undersheriff has said that a business owner wrote down a license plate number of a Versa that exactly matched the license plate number of DiMaggio's car and that undersheriff went on to tell CNN that this is from a very credible source, again, a business owner and their surveillance video in the area so now they have gone into neighboring Oregon and they are looking at these leads suggesting that DiMaggio was traveling north in the car -- Anderson.

COOPER: OK. So earlier a San Diego sheriff said those leads weren't panning out, but now what you're hearing from an undersheriff in a different county is they actually are taking these leads very seriously and they are searching for this vehicle?

VERCAMMEN: Exactly. And all the while, we're now not hearing anything from the San Diego County sheriff. So we're trying to run it down. We've pressed hard to talk to them, but in California and Oregon state officials both saying that they are taking this lead seriously, and thoroughly checking it out.

COOPER: This is a Nissan Versa that they are looking for. Paul Vercammen, appreciate the update. Thanks very much. Isha is back with the 360 News and Business Bulletin -- Isha.

SESAY: Anderson, a 360 follow, the rail way company whose runaway train killed more than 40 people in Quebec last month has filed for bankruptcy in the U.S. and Canada. The unmanned 73 car train exploded slamming into commercial center.

New relief in South Central Missouri where flooding has prompted a state of emergency, more than 100 homes flooded overnight and more rain soaked the region.

Yahoo says it will unveil a new corporate logo next month, the first redesign in two decades. Until then, for each of the next 30 days it will display a different version of the updated logo on the home page.

Anderson, plywood box is shoved out of a plane at 14,000 feet with escape artist Tony Martin chained inside. It took him 30 seconds to break free. He made a perfect landing. He did the same stunt for the first time 25 years ago. You think he would have learned his lesson by now.

COOPER: Isha, thanks. We'll be right back.


COOPER: We run out of time for "The Ridiculist." Sorry about that. Thanks for watching. "PIERS MORGAN LIVE" starts now.