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Amber Alert Expanded
Aired August 8, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, the clock is ticking. When will James Lee DiMaggio be found? He may be a killer. He may be a kidnapper. He may be a predator.
And he may have Hanna and Ethan Anderson. As the nationwide manhunt for a dangerous man continues, my behavior bureau wants answers.
Plus, things don`t look good for little josh Young. Did the teen help his convict dad commit murder? We`re about to find out.
Let`s get started.
PINSKY: Good evening.
My co-host is attorney and Sirius XM Radio host Jenny Hutt.
JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: Hello.
PINSKY: Coming up, is your child being groomed by a predator? I will tell you. And the behavior bureau will ring in what to look for. We`ll hear from the suspect`s father.
But, first, massive manhunt under way for James DiMaggio. It continues right now. He`s accused of having killed a woman, possibly her son, and abducting her daughter. His car might be rigged with explosives.
Authorities warn that anyone seeing his 2012 blue Nissan Versa should not, not approach it. They should call 911 immediately. They add he is a camper and a hiker and may be hunkered down somewhere. They`re urging you to please look for the faces you see.
Take a look at this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He could be anywhere at this point.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He may be in possession of kind of improvised explosives.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Several states on high alert this morning after possible sightings of a blue Nissan Versa driven by James DiMaggio.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`ve taken everything, the damage is done, just let my daughter go.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Several of Hannah`s friends say the 40-year-old was romantically interested in the 16-year-old.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hanna did say she was a little creeped out when Jim told her he had a crush on her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He now has admitted he had romantic feelings for the 16-year-old girl, that he`s known since she was a baby.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is safe to say he is a very dangerous person.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She wouldn`t go because it was too awkward.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The kids even called him Uncle Jim.
NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST: Fatherly feelings, then sex feelings.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jim actually did pick up one of Hannah`s friends on numerous occasions and took her on dates and provided her with alcohol and marijuana.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hannah, if you have a chance, you take it. You run. You`ll be found.
PINSKY: Joining us, Crystal Wright from conservativeblackchick.com. Marc Klaas, his daughter Polly Klaas kidnapped and murdered in `93. He`s the founder of Klaas Kids Foundation. HLN host Lynn Barry, and former prosecutor Loni Coombs, author of "You`re Perfect and Other Lies Parents Tell."
First up to CNN`s Paul Vercammen. He joins us from California.
Paul, can you give us an update?
PAUL VERCAMMEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Yes, I talked to authorities just a short time ago and they were extremely concerned in a case that has so much urgency that the suspect, Jim DiMaggio, might be armed with homemade bombs.
They went to say that anybody, including law enforcement officers, who comes upon him, needs to be extra cautious. They fear that he could abandon his car and that car could be booby trapped with some sort of homemade improvised incendiary devices. So that`s a major concern right now.
Also, some sightings possibly in the northeast corner of California and Oregon. After talk of possibly seeing him yesterday, those leads have gone cold.
I spoke with the sheriff of Modoc County where an 18-year-old maid leaving her shift said she thought she saw the suspect`s car yesterday. He said she was credible but there were some holes there.
One thing that concerned him, this is extremely rural. It is a place with so many dirt roads and winding trails into the wilderness. Drew, he said someone could get lost up in there and not be seen for days.
PINSKY: Wow, Paul, thank you for that update.
Marc, they`re saying he may have homemade explosives with him. Does this suggest he may have been planning this for a while?
MARC KLAAS, DAUGHTER POLLY WAS KIDNAPPED, MURDERED: That`s what it sounds like it would suggest, but I can`t believe this guy would be dumb enough to think he could get away in this car, 1,500 miles and get into Canada. This just doesn`t really make sense to me.
I still believe he`s much closer to home than that.
PINSKY: How about the advice to Hannah? If she could hear you what`s the best advice you could give her?
KLAAS: That`s very simple. The best piece of advice for Hannah is to do whatever you have to do to stay alive until you`re rescued. It`s simple as that. Or, if you have an opportunity to run, take it and it go.
PINSKY: Now, HLN actually has exclusive video of Hannah Anderson. We want to show it to you now, hoping it may give somebody help in identifying this teen or finding here. We have a tip line number up on the screen. Call please if you`ve seen or think you may have seen Hannah.
There is this footage of her with her friend. Boy, I`ve now heard a lot of crazy stories about what happened in Hollywood.
Jenny, in fact, I heard that this guy asked her not to be texting and uploading photos so much. And he became tearful when she talked pack to him. She wouldn`t pay enough attention to him. Did you hear that story?
HUTT: Yes, I heard that the trip was cut short because she was texting her friends and wasn`t showing enough interest in him. I mean, Dr. Drew, what`s upsetting with this whole thing, it`s like the warning signs. It`s too late. How did nobody see warning signs ahead of time? Why does it happen like this?
PINSKY: Well, we`re going to have the behavior bureau dedicated to that. Crystal I hear you groaning in the background.
CRYSTAL WRIGHT, CONSERVATIVEBLACKCHICK.COM: Well, yes. You know, I absolutely agree with Jenny on this. We talked about this last night. There`s a parenting role here that`s missing.
But I want to go deeper. I think we are not raising young women with enough self-esteem and we`re not talking to our daughters, our nieces, the young girls in our lives and saying, look, when you feel uncomfortable, if a man is trying to approach you, get you alone in the room, you need to tell an adult. Because we love you, we know that --
PINSKY: But, Crystal, I want to go further.
WRIGHT: No, no, wait. Hannah told her friend but she couldn`t tell her mother? What are we doing? How are we raising our young girls? It`s validation of men.
PINSKY: Well, I want to talk to Lynn about it, too, as well as Crystal.
Lynn, here`s the deal. Not only are we not giving women the permission to speak, we live in a PC world where people go, we can`t judge, he`s a nice guy, we can`t judge.
WRIGHT: We can judge.
LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST: Freedom.
WRIGHT: Wait a minute.
BERRY: Here`s the other part of this.
BERRY: Well, let me tell you, this is not just about Hannah not telling her mother. This is also about the friend of Hanna`s that didn`t tell her mother. Her mother`s the one that spoke out and said, we learned about this after the fact. We went to those kids and we said, was anything suspicious? Oh, yes, by the way, he said he had a crush on her.
Where was this information 24 hours prior to that when that would have been valuable and could have saved lives?
PINSKY: Yes, Loni, what goes down is cool.
You and I were talking about this, yeas, whatever`s cool, man. Whatever you`re into.
LONI COOMBS, ATTORNEY: I`m going to be more un-PC and say, what was the mother thinking letting her 16-year-old daughter go off with this man? I know he was the uncle.
WRIGHT: No way, right?
COOMBS: She was a young woman, going camping together alone? This man and this young woman? As a mother, I would say, I`m sorry, that`s not happening.
PINSKY: I got to agree with you. However, hang on, however I want to show you something else that came up last night. However, we in this tough situation where this woman was a victim, we do not want to victim it`s the victim which is something that happens when she`s not here to defend herself. We don`t know the details.
But it`s a point, absolutely well-taken. One of my guests last night got a big reaction from the panel when he said something. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIAN COPELAND, RADIO HOST: I just really have a problem with any basically being nice to a kid, younger person, being looked at automatically as a suspect. This is a guy who knew her father since seventh grade. I`ve got three best friends I`ve known for 30 years, and my kids consider them uncles. If one of them wanted to take my daughter or son for something special, I would allow them to do it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Lynn, reaction. You weren`t here last night. I want to hear what you`ve got to say.
BERRY: I`ve got to say, there`s one thing of being close to a family friend, there`s another thing if what the friends say are true to go on a trip alone with a man that`s 40 years old when you`re 16 years old. And we have one friend that said they spent the night in a hotel room together.
BERRY: There is something called appropriateness when it comes to adults and kids and that is inappropriate.
WRIGHT: Yes, it`s totally -- wait, it is totally cuckoo what Brian said and I don`t know if Brian has teenage daughters. I really doubt. I don`t care how close you are with a man, a 50, 60-year-old man, that somebody`s almost three times the age of your teenage daughter, you`re going to let them sleep alone in a bedroom together, you`re going to go to L.A. and have fun and hang out? You know, H no, H to the no. Ain`t going to happen.
PINSKY: Jenny does have a teenage daughter. Go ahead, Jenny.
HUTT: Crystal`s 100 percent right. I mean, this is so maddening that we`re even having this discussion, Dr. Drew.
WRIGHT: Thank you, Jenny.
HUTT: If a 40-year-old man has a keen interest in your 16-year-old daughter and wants alone time with her? Come on, Dr. Drew. Where is that OK?
PINSKY: Marc Klaas, are we learn something good here or going too far? Marc Klaas -- hold on, Lynn. Hang on, Marc Klaas.
KLAAS: Thank you very much. Listen, I don`t think that most men would allow themselves to even be put inn a position like that.
KLAAS: That they would be --
WRIGHT: Thank you.
KLAAS: That they would find themselves in that kind of a situation. I think the vast majority of men would never do anything to harm a girl.
WRIGHT: I agree.
KLAAS: Unfortunately, men are the problem and they make it bad for all of us.
PINSKY: Marc Klaas makes the key point. People are being attentive to a circumstance would not even put themselves in circumstances that would look suspect. It`s people -- you remember back to Andrea Sneiderman, I said the same point.
If you hang out with bad boundaries, people with suspect behavior, it`s not -- we can`t judge, we can`t judge. No, you maintain your boundaries there, you do not let this guy go to Hollywood. You don`t leave them alone ever in a room with your child.
Thank you, panel.
A family friend says Hannah`s not the only teenage girl DiMaggio spent time with. Later, we`ll hear from Hannah`s father.
Back in a moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HALEY WILCOCK (via telephone): For her sweet 16th birthday, they went to Hollywood. I know she was nervous to go because of what had transpired about him told her that he had a crush on her. She was definitely nervous about it. Hannah had taken pictures of just of herself on the trip, of her cell phone, told him she had deleted them. And he was very upset and he was yelling at her and crying about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Time for a behavior bureau. Welcome back.
My co-host Jenny Hutt.
Jenny, that little piece of tape just reminded me of the fact that we have to really alert young girls too, not just their parents. But really need to -- we on this program need to make a point of telling young girls, if a man -- what, within four, two years of your age range express --
HUTT: How about -- hold on. If any guy starts taking pictures of an underage girl --
PINSKY: That`s way off the chart. That`s off the chart.
HUTT: The whole thing is out of control.
PINSKY: That`s off the chart. I`m saying, if there`s a guy, any. Let`s do this -- any guy showing you unwanted advances, particularly if that guy seems outside of your peer age, a couple of years older than you or more, please speak up about it. Please. It`s not what you think it is.
PINSKY: You may be gratified by the attention. It`s not what you think it is.
HUTT: It`s dangerous. It`s dangerous.
PINSKY: When you become the age of that man, you`ll vomit when you think of that guy having done what he did.
Jim DiMaggio is what we`re talking about tonight. He`s the subject of a nationwide manhunt. He may have allegedly developed a crush on one of these children he`s accused of having kidnapped, teenager Hannah Anderson. We`ve been showing her picture. He is a family friend who watched her grow up.
Joining us psychiatrist Tiffanie Davis Henry, psychotherapist Wendy Walsh, author of "The 30-Day Love Detox", Samantha Schacher, host of "Pop Trigger" on Young Turks Network.
Danine Manette, criminal investigator and author of "Ultimate Betrayal." And I`ve also got a friend of the family, Angelina Amati.
Angelina, you joined us last night and told us very interesting things and thank you for joining us again.
Tell us again now why do you think DiMaggio could possibly have done something like this?
ANGELINA AMATI, FAMILY FRIEND (via telephone): I just honestly believe that there was such a severe infatuation, a love infatuation with Hannah, and that`s what caused this.
PINSKY: And, Angelina, putting -- you`ve sort of now got all the pieces of the puzzle, you`ve been in this community, you`ve seen this guy operate for a while, how do you put this all together? Do you know about past indiscretions, let`s say?
AMATI: No, you -- just like I told other reporters, you didn`t put this together. There was no sign that he was this kind of person whatsoever.
PINSKY: I actually heard his sister defending him saying the cartel has come to Mexico and victimized him. It`s so far off the chain, off the grid for how you would expect him to behave. Yet, Angelina, you seem to be at ease with the notion that this middle-aged man had after overwhelming crush on a young girl.
AMATI: I wouldn`t say I`m at ease. If I had known sooner, I definitely would have notified the parents. I didn`t find out about this crush until the day of being told that the house burnt down. Being a mom of two teenage daughters, this is something I highly do not approve of.
I know when boys two years that are two years older are trying to talk to my daughters I shut it down immediately. It`s nothing that I`m at ease with. Being a mom, I have to remain strong for my two daughters.
PINSKY: I get you. I get you 100 percent. I don`t mean at ease that way. I mean, as you put the pieces of the puzzle together, you`re accepting of this version of the story and I think we all are.
I want to give the panel a chance to ask you questions. Wendy, you`re up first for Angelina.
WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, what I want to know, I know that you only found out about this the night that the house was burning. Do you think the girls were keeping secrets? And do you think Hannah might have actually been flattered a little bit by the attention? Because teenage girls, they get deluded, they think I`m so grown up, a grown-up man is into me, they think it`s kind of cool.
Do you think the girls all colluded in the secret a bit?
AMATI: I wouldn`t say that they colluded in the secret. If you have teenage kids, you know at this stage the parents are the enemies, we keep secrets from our parents at this age. I believe that with Hannah, telling the girls she was creeped out by it, they felt knowing Hannah knowing her, she was mentally strong enough to not be put in that situation. Hannah did state she was not going up there no more alone.
PINSKY: It is an important point, that 15 and 16-year-old kids are not completely forthcoming with their parents. I don`t care who the parents are, there`s not a 15-year-old on earth that is 100 percent forthcoming with their parents.
Tiffanie, your question?
TIFFANIE DAVIS HENRY, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: I think there was some signs that may have been dismissed. I know we said earlier that, you know, no one would have expected this, no one could have predicted this, but there were signs. Even the things that -- you know, he was saying to Hannah, going on the trips, all those things were dismissed or minimized. So, I think it`s important to note, Dr. Drew, and everyone else, that these little details, they`re all very, very important.
HENRY: We can`t let little things like this slide, because what happened is they escalate into something much bigger.
PINSKY: What you call a tell.
Samantha, do you have a question for Angelina?
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. Angelina, you know Hannah. Is Hannah one to fight, is she one to use the opportunity to run away, maybe try and convince Jim to turn himself in?
AMATI: One hundred percent. Hanna is -- she`s feisty and she`s going to fight you on her beliefs. The first opportunity she has she`s going to do like her dad said and run for it.
PINSKY: That`s actually the first piece of good news I`ve had so far the last couple of days on this story.
JANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: What I`ve learned is when older men have proclivity towards young children or young girls, they try and involve themselves in their lives to a certain extent. What I want to know is do you know whether or not he friended her on Facebook, did he follow her on Instagram, did he follow her on Twitter? Did he involve herself in her life and social life in that respect?
AMATI: Well, in that same respect, I would have to disagree with that. I follow all of my daughter`s friends on Instagram and Facebook so that I can be aware of what my daughter`s doing, and yes, he did.
PINSKY: I back you up, my wife does that too. When Danine was asking, I thought, is that OK?
WALSH: But he`s not their father. But he`s not their father, Dr. Drew.
MANETTE: I follow my own kids but I don`t follow everybody else`s kids.
PINSKY: Point well taken. Danine`s talking, I couldn`t hear, what was that?
MANETTE: I follow my own kids but this man just following a bunch of teenage girls, that`s a problem.
PINSKY: Fair enough.
MANETTE: It`s a problem.
AMATI: I can`t say he was following her friends. I`m saying me personally as a parent, I follow my daughter`s close friends to make sure I see what`s going on.
PINSKY: We`re drawing a distinction between somebody from the same gene pool watching out and an "uncle" friend so to speak.
HUTT: But the appropriate way to behave, if there is an uncle that`s following a "niece" on Instagram, that uncle`s doing it to protect that niece saying things like, bad picture, take it down, to the parent. This is a boundary situation that`s completely mixed up, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Yes. Not mixed up. It`s very clear, it`s very clear. It`s a boundary violation. It`s inappropriate. And we`ve got to teach our young women about this.
WALSH: Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: Yes, finally, Wendy, take me home.
WALSH: I just want to say that the single mothers out there need to be aware pedophiles target single mothers because they need the child care, they need the driving, they need the help, and they welcome this sort of extra man around the house. So, be very careful what men you allow around your kids.
PINSKY: It`s a great -- as I said last night, if you yourself have been victimized as a child, even though you`re hyper-vigilant about avoiding that, victim survivors have an uncanny probability of bringing victimizers into your life. It`s uncanny. So, know yourself. If you`re attracted to somebody, they seem nice, be careful. Be careful. Check with other people.
Up next, behavior bureau again. We`ll hear from Hannah`s father on the man he trusted to help take care of the children.
And later, new details on the Joshua Young trial that you will not hear anywhere else. We`ll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRETT ANDERSON, FATHER: Ethan wore heart on his sleeve. He would give -- do anything for anybody, loved everybody. He was just my buddy. We spoke quite often since I`ve been in Nashville and he would tell me his daily routines. He was just getting back into football for a second year.
And Hannah was just a beautiful, beautiful girl. Very, very good student. Hundreds and hundreds of friends. And -- there`s nothing bad to say about my kids. They never did anything to anybody. They were always wonderful.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Oh my goodness.
Back with the co-host Jenny Hutt and the behavior bureau.
A possible motive -- yes, Jenny, you`re reacting. You want to react to that? It`s heartbreaking.
HUTT: Yes, it`s so heartbreaking. Dr. Drew, did you hear that he had a job out of state and sort of relied on this monster to be around to help out?
PINSKY: I heard -- well, as Wendy warned, before the break, that if you`re a single mom, you might be reliant on guys that you might otherwise not rely upon. And this guy has known the DiMaggio character since childhood and was trusting of this guy. The whole thing becomes mind- boggling.
However, there is a motive emerging as to why DiMaggio killed Christina, allegedly, Christina Anderson, and then kidnapped her daughter Hannah. Apparently, he may have well had -- we`ve been reporting that he told her that he had a crush on this kid. This Uncle Jim appears to be perhaps, a predator who was grooming Hannah for a long period of time.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Jenny.
HUTT: Every time you say that word, grooming, my mind goes to the wrong place.
PINSKY: Well, I`m going to get into it. I want to get into it with the behavior panel, behavior, grooming, what weird distortions go on in this guy`s head. First hear more from Hannah`s father.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: I know that they`re looking for DNA and everything. But -- you know, I wish that, you know -- I hope that`s not my boy but I have to kind of think that it is. That`s kind of my mindset right now. So, right now, a lot of focus is on trying to get my daughter back alive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: OK. It`s just sad. But, Danine, you had a reaction before that piece of tape.
MANETTE: Yes, Dr. Drew, I`m so glad we`re talking about this. Last night when people were saying that you need to be really careful about hurting the males in your lives feelings, you know, if you want to keep your kids away from them or whatever, my number one priority is protecting my kids, point blank.
And if it hurts some grown man`s feelings because he can`t take a trip with my kids that`s too bad. He`s a grown ass man and I don`t have time to worry about if he has a companion for a road trip. I need to be in cahoots with my kid and I need to make sure my kid is safe at all times.
PINSKY: Absolutely 100 percent.
MANETTE: I don`t have time for that. We dismiss our kids` feelings.
PINSKY: Listen, we need to be less PC, less worried about people`s feelings.
Tiffanie, how would you recognize somebody grooming a child? What do you think?
HENRY: Well, grooming behaviors usually are very, very subtle. They`ll start with just little things. Maybe it`s just unbuttoning -- simple as unbuttoning a top button of a shirt. Or saying, can I see your phone and look to your pictures? Or can I send you a picture?
Something that may be inconspicuous. They up the ante. Until it gets to a point where you`re like, oh my gosh, whoa. This is too much. I`m offended.
But by that time, you`re so far in. A lot of times these kids feel like -- well, I let it go this far. And now, I don`t know what to do. I don`t know how to tell my parents that I allowed him to get this close to me, or see these pictures, or any of that stuff. It`s very disturbing.
Even adults have trouble recognizing grooming behaviors. So, it`s not surprising that teens fall prey to this.
PINSKY: Yes, I would say two things, Wendy, that A, whenever an adult is telling a child, a teenager, they have a special quality in their relationship, be careful.
PINSKY: Be careful of a psychological principle called foot in the door. Which is something how these guys get their way, they get that foot in the door, and they start getting into the doorway, into the living room, finally.
And, finally, Wendy, what kinds of distortions go on in this guy`s mind to allow him to behave like this? What do you think he`s thinking?
WALSH: Well, let`s talk about both kinds of distortions. First, his distortion. Now, if he`s known this girl since she was a child he probably may not even have been aware of the feelings he was developing for her. Those feelings, distorted, crazy, insane feelings probably exploded when she hit puberty and he`s trying to control himself but also get his foot in the door.
It`s probably he`s starting to work the game. But think about her. She`s a teenager. Teenagers love autonomy. They love to feel special. They love to feel grownup.
And now, this grownup person who may be giving her gifts, who maybe telling her she`s beautiful, who may be having a secret, special relationship with her.
PINSKY: Jenny, you`re throwing up at that.
HUTT: Because, what is he thinking? He`s thinking there`s a happily ever after with this teenage girl. It`s disgusting.
PINSKY: It`s more disgusting than that, guys. The perps think the victims want it.
PINSKY: Samantha, go.
SCHACHER: OK. This is where I`m confused, because I was listening to where Wendy was speaking, but at the same time, when I was a teenager, if my -- because I had some Uncle Mikes and Uncle Ricks, you know, that were my dad`s friends.
PINSKY: I`m not sure I`m ready for this story. Jenny dropped the bomb last night saying --
SCHACHER: No. Listen, these are people that I loved and I trusted. But here`s the thing. "A", they never asked to alone lunch dates or take me away, but if they did, I wouldn`t want to go. I don`t see how Hannah would even want to go, right?
PINSKY: Well, who wants to answer that?
PINSKY: Danine, go, but it kind of takes us down a path I`m not sure we need to go down, but go ahead, Danine.
MANETTE: Yes, Dr. Drew. We, as parents, also need to be aware of our children`s reactions to people. Instead of, oh, go on over there, stop being rude and go kiss your Uncle Joe.
MANETTE: You know, if your child is showing you something, you know, an unspoken thing, you don`t take the power away from your child. What you`re telling them is that if a big person says you have to do something, you have to do it. And that disempowers your child. You got to listen to them and see their unspoken signals. You know, when they`re uncomfortable, let them make the call.
PINSKY: You have to listen to their instincts as well as your own instincts. That`s a great place to stop. Panel, thank you very much. If you have a question for the "Behavior Bureau," tweet us @DrDrewHLN #behaviorbureau.
Up next, new details in the Joshua Young murder trial. We have them exclusively.
And later, the victim`s grandmother joins me in another "Behavior Bureau." We will -- there she is. We`ll be interviewing her, hearing her thoughts on this trial and where this is going. Don`t go away.
VINNIE POLITAN, HLN ANCHOR: Coming up top of the hour on "HLN After Dark," it`s the eve before closing arguments. The jury`s going to have the case. This is it.
RYAN SMITH, HLN ANCHOR: This is it. And so, our jury tonight is going to decide the bold question. Should Josh Young go free? This is for everything, folks. They are ready to go, Vinnie.
POLITAN: And special guest tonight, the foster parents of Josh Young are going to join us to learn a lot.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. Back with us as well, Loni Coombs, Crystal Wright, Tiffanie Davis Henry, and Lynn Berry. Little Josh Young on trial for the murder of his stepbrother who had been found bludgeoned to death in a ditch. The defendant`s father there in the orange, Big Josh Gouker, claims he alone killed the teenager. The defense rested today. Jurors get the case tomorrow. Whom will they believe? Check this out.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Trey Zwicker was afraid of the dark.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To your knowledge, was Trey afraid of the dark?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They were sitting together on the couch playing video games, very relaxed, kind of joking with each other.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you describe Joshua Young`s demeanor in the car going to the funeral?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Very sad, very distraught, teary-eyed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said that he didn`t have to do much persuasion because his son was a demon child.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Josh senior got his swing from his old man?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How his son gave some bloody evidence to a cousin. The way he said it, was like a kissing cousin.
PINSKY: We`ve learned exclusively that Little Josh`s lawyers recently approached the prosecution looking, suggesting, a plea deal. The prosecution then went to the victim`s family. The family said no to a deal. We`ve reached out to the prosecution to confirm this. They declined to comment specifically because the trial is still ongoing. Loni, though, you say this is huge?
LONI COOMBS, ATTORNEY: Yes, it is huge. Any time there`s a potential plea deal, it is huge. And it`s the last thing the attorneys want the jurors to know is that someone wanted to plead guilty. Because we all think, hmmm, if they`re willing to plead guilty, if they want a plea deal, then they must have done something wrong.
Now, what it lets us know is that the attorneys looked at the evidence, looked at the case, and decided, you know what, this is too much of a risk. We think our guy`s going to go down. We`re going to try to cut our losses and get the best deal we can for our client and not leave it in the jurors` hands because we just don`t know what might happen.
PINSKY: And Jenny, is this usually a weak prosecution or strong defense?
HUTT: No, no. I think --
PINSKY: Or the way around?
HUTT: No, no. I think this is a strong prosecution.
HUTT: However, I`m confused at one thing. Trey`s father -- at the beginning of the prosecution`s case, they mentioned that Trey was afraid of the dark, and then the dad gets on the stand and said he`s not afraid of the dark. And I`m confused why Trey`s father would discredit something the prosecution said. I don`t get it.
PINSKY: There`s a lot of --
LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST: One of many things that people are confused about. That`s what`s tough about this trial. And what shocked me today was that I -- the news that you just broke, Dr. Drew, is even more shocking, because when the defense rested I was like, wow, they must be really confident. They are up there for 30 minutes and I`m wondering where`s the foster family?
If you want to turn this baby-faced kid into a baby-faced victim, not a baby-faced murder, you put the foster family up there and you say, listen, this kid was flourishing with me. His father got out of prison and he fell back into the arms of a dysfunctional kissing cousin dad who`s willing to pin his son`s murder on him because he`ll only get three years. And that foster family, we didn`t hear from them, why?
PINSKY: Right. And Crystal, we actually -- I saw some interviews with the foster family when they were saying, no, the kid was great. He was perfect while he was with us.
CRYSTAL WRIGHT, CONSERVATIVEBLACKCHICK.COM: Well, the Pearls (ph), that`s the name of the foster family, the grandmother said that Josh was such a well-adjusted, caring child. She said that when he first arrived at the home, he was 14 or 15, and he was carrying his three-year-old sister, you know, making sure she was OK. Very caring and loving.
And then, I guess, two months before this -- you know, the killing happened of Trey, you know, Josh was very normal. And then two months later, his father gets him and boom, it`s like bizarro-land. And I`m sorry. I think the testimony, every time we talk about Big Josh the story changes. It`s like now he was making a sex tape with his wife.
And then he asked Josh, he said Josh was a demon child, and he asked Josh to kill Trey. I mean, his story is just all over the place. I mean, I really don`t -- I`m kind of surprised that the prosecution has a deal.
PINSKY: And Tiffanie, let me ask you a tough question for people that might be watching. Is there any way to tell when somebody`s this much of a liar where there is truth, any tell so to speak?
TIFFANIE DAVIS HENRY, PH.D., HLN CONTRIBUTOR: It`s kind of like an addict, Dr. Drew. If their mouth is moving, they`re probably lying.
HENRY: I will say, though, it`s much easier to remember the truth than it is a lie. And so, a lot of those times where he`s saying I don`t know, I can`t remember, those are probably times where he lies. He`s very quick to tell you what he said and what he did when it`s probably the truth. But again, Dr. Drew, we just don`t know. He`s a liar. He`s an effing liar.
PINSKY: That`s right.
WRIGHT: He is an effing liar.
PINSKY: I`ve got to go to break, guys. Hang on. Next up, Trey Zwicker`s grandmother will join me. Another "Behavior Bureau." Her message for Big Josh when we come back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, you would rather not be in a secure home, at a secure school, have a decent family, having Trey as your friend. Your life was pretty good while your dad was in prison. You got to admit. You had a much better situation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, I love my dad more than anybody in this world. And I`d rather be with him than anybody in this world. My life was much better with my dad.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, your life was better getting arrested in Alabama?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Being with my dad is all worth it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Wow. Very telling. Back again for "Behavior Bureau" and co- host, Jenny Hutt. Isn`t that make you kind of skin crawl a little bit?
HUTT: It actually makes me really sad that this kid, his mother was dead, his father`s a convict, and yet, he still that pull to be with his dad is so strong that despite all the bad stuff, he still wants his dad even though his dad is a giant jerk, creep, horrible monster.
PINSKY: Yes. I don`t know. That pull makes me very, very concerned. The fact that --
PINSKY: -- he would feel that kind of -- it`s almost a commitment to somebody like that. And that`s where things can go bad. Joining us, Samantha Schacher, Wendy Walsh, and Crystal Wright. Wendy, Little Josh says being with my dad is all worth it. I have a spooky reaction to that. How about you?
WENDY WALSH, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGIST: No, I understand it, because I understand attachment. I mean, this is his lifeline. This is the person who his survival instincts are attached to. This is his version of love and feeling loved. It`s deranged, you and I know that. And we know that the kid would be much better off with any other parent, I think, on the planet. But, sadly, kids will latch on to even an abusive parent --
PINSKY: But Wendy, I understand attachment. I understand that. But Crystal, it still makes me sort of crazy that he`s going to follow, because of his -- he can`t see -- you know what I`m saying?
PINSKY: No, I think two things. This takes me back to what you said early on, Dr. Drew, that you worry that Little Josh has gotten that gene, that defective, evil gene. So, that concerns me. But I have to agree with Wendy. This reminds me of abused animals.
And we`ve all witnessed, when animals go back to their abusers, it`s the saddest thing you`ll ever want to witness, because that`s where they find that demented love, because in some sick way, and I think Josh reminds me of this. I almost think he was beaten by Big Josh. It`s a brainwashing.
It`s a demented parenting. And I don`t know how -- you know, I`m not buying that he just killed Trey with, you know, impunity and like, you know, he was heartless. I think he was under the control of his father.
PINSKY: And what they get, Crystal, is what`s called traumatic bonding. They actually bond more tightly to the perpetrator, but I want to talk to right now to Shelly Stewart. She is trey Zwicker`s maternal grandmother. Shelly, you recently had an exchange with Big Josh in court. Can you tell me about that?
SHELLY STEWART, TREY ZWICKER`S GRANDMOTHER: Yes. They were having a sidebar. And he was up there at the stand. He was like, what, what? Looking at me. And I was like, I hope you rot in hell, that`s what I want. And, so, they didn`t appreciate it too much. So, they was going to try to put me out of the courtroom.
PINSKY: What did you think of Big Josh`s behavior on the stand?
STEWART: I think he should get a lifetime achievement award to go along with that lifetime sentence he got.
PINSKY: What do you mean by that?
STEWART: Because he just pretends so much. Because he`s just -- he pretends a lot and he acted like, you know, he didn`t care and all that stuff. That`s just his pretense, that he`s so bad. He`s really a coward.
PINSKY: Should we have sympathy for Little Josh given the influence of this awful man over him? Should we have some sort of compassion for Little Josh, even God forbid, if he actually participated in this murder?
STEWART: No, he shouldn`t have any sympathy, because if he had any kind of remorse, he would have told me or any adult that was involved in this. He would have told the police. He didn`t have to protect or hide things just like the rest of them did. He should have -- if he was that good kid, he should have come clean.
PINSKY: Jenny, is that you wanted to ask something?
HUTT: But you`ve said before on this show how Big Josh was just the most awful guy, and you`ve known him for years. Is there any part of you that has compassion for Little Josh, having been his son and essentially brainwashed?
STEWART: I don`t think it`s a brainwash deal. I think it`s in the genes. I think you are who you are. If in fact it wasn`t, then my daughter wouldn`t be the way she is today, because I raised five kids in the same house and she came out, you know, the way she has. So, I think it`s a gene.
PINSKY: I`m going to stop you and take a break. You`re talking about your daughter, Amanda, who was the woman involved with Big Josh. I think she was the wife, I believe.
PINSKY: Yes. And you`ve said before that she calls herself a sociopath, is that right? Just kind of nod if that`s true.
PINSKY: OK. I want to ask you about that after the break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEWART: Amanda has always been all about Amanda. She met Josh when she was 13, 14 years old. And he`s been a pain in my behind since then, because Amanda has constantly went back to this man for all these years.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You went in and had sex then you went and got cigarettes?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. After we (EXPLETIVE DELETED), after one of them times, yes, we went and got cigarettes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: We`re back with the Behavior Bureau and Shelly Stewart. Shelly`s grandson, Trey Zwicker, was murdered by Big Josh Gouker. Now, Shelly, before the break, we talked about your daughter, Amanda, who is the victim`s mom and the wife of Big Josh who was also his alibi. This gets very, very confusing.
And you said she was a sociopath, and indeed, certain kinds of psychopathy and sociopathy can have a genetic basis to it. Why do you say that this kid also has that genetic predilection?
STEWART: Because I believe a normal 14, 15-year-old wouldn`t even have the -- the ability or the mindset to mistreat animals let alone mistreat a human being. And, if they can mistreat animals, the next step is the human being, because they have no remorse. They have no -- he has no feeling, no remorse.
He`s like you see him in the courtroom, that`s the way he is every day of his life. And that`s before Trey ever passed away.
SCHACHER: Yes. I have a two-part question. First, really quickly, do you have any specific incidents other than the fact of the beating of the dog that -- the filming of the beating of the dog that you`re aware of that makes you so convinced that Little Josh is as evil as his father?
STEWART: He`s emotionless. Ever since I met him in the months before anything ever happened to Trey, he has never one time, I`ve been there eating supper with them, I`ve been there going out with them, going to parks and things like that. He has never one time smiled, laughed, talked, anything.
He just sits off to his self or he`ll be with his father, you know, throwing a football around or something like that. He`s never had any kind of emotion.
PINSKY: True psychopaths -- Wendy, you agree with me on this -- don`t have emotion. They act as if they had emotion. The way they see people behave will have emotions to try to get what they need from people, basically.
WALSH: Exactly. They sometimes can be very, very smart and very manipulative and it`s almost like they copy what they see, but they`re not really having the same internal emotion experience that they`re acting.
PINSKY: Right. Shelly, will we ever know how you grandson died?
STEWART: I believe I know. I believe that Josh hit him in the face and I believe that he coerced (ph), talked to, told his son to do the rest of the beatings because his father -- when my son was on the stand, he said that Little Josh was playing basketball, would (ph) take his father out. His father said, you showed no mercy to anyone. So, that same night, I think he decided to show his father he had no mercy.
PINSKY: And Shelly, I wonder if the baseball bat was what hit Trey in the face, because there was this bloody baseball bat. I think there was a different object that he got hit in the head with. Do you agree with me on this? I`m sorry to be so gruesome about this, but we`re trying to understand this case.
STEWART: Oh, no. I think that Josh hit him in the face, and then, he held him down with his foot, because the dirty shirt has a footprint on it. And I believe he held him down with his foot while Little Josh did the rest of the beatings.
PINSKY: It`s so gruesome. I`m so sorry.
STEWART: That`s my opinion.
PINSKY: I appreciate you joining us, Shelly. Thank you, panel. "Last Call" is next.
PINSKY: Jenny, "Last Call" goes out to anyone out there who might see, we put the car up and the license plate. And of course, we`re talking about this man. We`re talking about Hannah, and we`ve been talking about her all night, Hannah Anderson. I hope somebody sees them. There it is. There`s the license plate on the car.
HUTT: Yes. Just positive thoughts, positive hope, positive prayers. I hope that she`s OK.
PINSKY: Keep your eyes peeled. Everybody, you see them, do something. "After Dark" starts after this.