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Killer or Innocent Child; Kidnappaer on the Run with Young Girl

Aired August 8, 2013 - 19:00   ET


JOEY JACKSON, HLN HOST: Tonight, grim new revelations about a murder suspect and the girl he`s believed to have kidnapped.

A pleasant evening to you. I`m Joey Jackson filling in for my friend, Jane Velez-Mitchell.

Police say that Jim DiMaggio murdered a dear friend and her son before fleeing with the victim`s daughter. Investigators are now warning people that this guy could be armed with explosive as he holds 16-year-old Hannah Anderson captive.

In a bizarre twist, new details are emerging about a recent trip the two of them went onto celebrate the sweet 16, just the two of them.

Joining me tonight. Hannah`s friend who said the 40-year-old suspect expressed a sexual attraction to Hannah, are police closer to tracking them down?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Desperate search under way in California.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Obviously just lost it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: He burned down his house. That was his house that burned.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: The mother`s body along with the dog found in the burning rubble.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a picture of Hannah Anderson.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Several of Hannah`s friends say the 40-year- old was romantically interested in the 16-year-old.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She is definitely in because we believe DiMaggio is a dangerous man.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know Hannah did say she was a little creeped out when Jim did tell her that he had a crush on her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I believe the hardest thing emotionally is still to come.


JACKSON: Police say that DiMaggio actually torched his own home in a rural area outside of San Diego over the weekend. In the rubble they found the remains thought to be those of Christina Anderson and her 8-year-old son, Ethan. The suspect allegedly kidnapped Hannah whom family friends say he was obsessed with.

In a chilling development, investigators are warning that this guy could be armed with explosives.


JAN CALDWELL, SAN DIEGO SHERIFF`S DEPARTMENT: We believe that he may be in possession of kind of improvised explosives. Working on the theory that he abandoned the car, we think there`s a possibility the car could be rigged. So we want to put out there for civilian safety, officer safety, if you see this car, do not approach it. But call law enforcement.


JACKSON: Straight out to law enforcement analyst, Mike Brooks.

Mike, always a pleasure.

What do you make of the warnings of the explosives? How did this twist come about, Mike?

MIKE BROOKS, LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, Joey, I think during the investigation, they must have uncovered maybe some research he had done. Maybe he left a note because, you know, law enforcement, Joey, has been holding things very, very close to the vest when it comes to this. They haven`t talked about any transactions using the ATM, whether or not he has a cell phone. Whether or not they pinged him to a certain area. That`s basically what I think, though. And maybe he also had ordered something or told someone about this. But they have developed this. They just don`t just pull it out of thin air. They must have something if they had put this out to the public, Joey.

JACKSON: Absolutely. So, there has to be some intelligence of some type, Mike. And I mean, what do you just make of the overall? Is he off the grid? Off the radar? Is he avoiding detection? I mean, this seems to have come out of the blue, Mike.

BROOKS: It does. And you know, they were talking about him possibly being, you know, camping somewhere because he lives in a rural area. You know, maybe he`s trying to go somewhere. Did he stockpile things there? And his plan to do this, we don`t know, you know. Because they`re talking about possibility of him being in Northern California, Oregon, Washington and now possibly Nevada.

So, you know, what do they really know? Maybe, they are just developing this information. But I`m glad to put it out to the public to say hey, if you see this car, don`t approach it. Call law enforcement.

JACKSON: Absolutely. That could be dangerous. And just the final thing, Mike. What do you make of his outdoorsman ship. I mean, the fact that he knows the outdoors. This could be something he would further use to evade detection here.

BROOKS: Exactly. And you know, my thought is that law enforcement has probably gotten a-hold of his bank accounts. They see if using the online purchases for camping gear, any kind of other supplies that he may have used to, you know, to go on the lam, but where did -- what does law enforcement really know? They are not saying, Joey.

JACKSON: Well, you know what, Mike, I know you`re going to be staying on top of this and you`re going to be saying quite a bit.

Always a pleasure, Mike. Always.

BROOKS: Thank you, buddy.

JACKSON: Family and friends have said the 40-year-old Jim DiMaggio had a crush on 16-year-old Hannah. Something that she told friends really creeped her out. Hannah`s dad was asked if the two could have indeed had a relationship. Take a listen.


BRETT ANDERSON, FATHER OF MISSING CHILDREN: I have not heard anything about that. If I had heard something about that or if my wife had heard something about that, it would have been cut off. No question about it.


JACKSON: That`s really tough to think about.

Now joining me now on the phone is Hannah`s friend, Allen.

Now Allen, you have asked us not to use your last name. We certainly respect that. Can you tell us about the recent trip that they took to Hollywood? That`s Hannah and Jim?

ALLEN, CLOSE FRIEND OF HANNAH ANDERSON (via phone): For her sweet 16th birthday they went to Hollywood and they were going to come back for her mother Tina`s birthday. But they ended up just staying there and they were going to go camping after that because they had gotten in an argument.

JACKSON: And how did that trip developed? How was it that he was going to take her for that sweet 16? Was it something preplanned? Did she speak about it with you? What can you tell us about that, Allen?

ALLEN: I know she was definitely a little nervous to go because of what had transpired about him telling her that he had a crush on her. She was definitely nervous about it. It sort of just came out of the blue two or three days prior to the trip.

JACKSON: And could you tell us anything in terms of whether Jim actually - - I know he had this crush. Did he do anything that might suggest that he meant her harm or that he wanted to pursue this crush that he had? What can you tell us about that, Allen?

ALLEN: Not that I know of. I know during the trip while she was on his phone when they were driving he, Hannah had taken a lot of pictures of herself throughout the trip. Of herself on the phone and she had deleted them. And I know he was very upset and was yelling at her and was crying about it.

JACKSON: You know, and what are your views on this? Is this something that you think he could have done harm to her? Is this something that she has expressed before to you, Allen?

ALLEN: This is definitely not something this far. I never expected something this extreme to happen. Especially him.

JACKSON: Wow. Well, you know what, our thoughts and prayers are there. I`m sure yours are as well, Allen. You`re brave to join us. We certainly really appreciate you being here. OK?

ALLEN: Yes, thanks for having me.

JACKSON: Thank you so much.

You know, we`re going to go straight out now to Paul Vercammen and we are going to get an update on this matter.

Paul, what can you tell us? What`s the latest?

PAUL VERCAMMEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, a short time ago I talked to authorities here in San Diego County. And they`re extremely concerned. As if this does not have a sense of urgency already, they are now telling us they fear that Mr. DiMaggio may have armed himself with homemade bombs, and they go onto say not only may he have these, but they`re suggesting if he abandons his car the concern is that he`ll booby trap it.

So, they are telling both civilians and law enforcement officers that if they come upon the car to instead call 911 and to be very careful because of the fact that he could have made homemade bombs, Joey.

JACKSON: Paul, let me ask you a question. How was this intelligence development and gathered? I mean, it seems as though that this was a very normal person. If we could describe him as that. And now, we go to a kidnapping and bombs and explosives. How do they get the information, Paul, if you know?

VERCAMMEN: Well, I pressed them very hard on that, Joey, as you can imagine. And one of the things I was asking them is when you see the fire at his house, I mean, that`s a pretty dramatic conflagration, as they would call it, did he use some sort of accelerant or device to expedite this? They wouldn`t answer right now. And as you know from a prosecutor`s standpoint, you don`t want to give away too much information in case you were able to extract something in a confession later. So, they are playing that extremely close to the vest. I would like to point something out, though.

JACKSON: Please.

VERCAMMEN: Back on his background, when he was 22-years-old we understand and we obtained a booking photo as well as some documents, he was arrested for a misdemeanor in Texas. This is young Jim DiMaggio. And what he was arrested for was fleeing from police. At some point in trying to get away from officers, we understand he was going 60 to 70 miles on a dirt road. This is relevant because authorities also telling me they fear because he has these camping or outdoor skills. He would be the type of person to find that rural road off the beaten path, hide from authorities, and where they think they may have seen him yesterday in extreme northeastern California and in southern Oregon. This is rural. He was on highway 395 that stretches through Oregon, through Washington and through the Canadian border.

JACKSON: You know, Paul, and it`s interesting that you mention that. Because when it comes to the outdoors, certainly this is something that could perplex police. It could help him stay off the grid further. I mean, do they have any indication from the leads that have been gathered where he may be or where they might pursue next? His whereabouts?

VERCAMMEN: Well, those two pings as I said before were in extreme northeastern California. So the coroners of the state, San Diego to (INAUDIBLE), a very small town and then just across the border in Lake County, Oregon. They are checking both of this out.

I talked to sheriff of the Modoc county. That is where Alturas (ph) is. He said this is where the lead came from. There was an 18-year-old maid who was leaving her shift. She thinks she saw the suspect`s car, the one that is part of the amber alert. She called into police. They have vetted her thoroughly. They say she`s articulate. They say she`s well spoken. There are some concerns. She went so far as to say she thought she saw an individual in if front seat, a blond hair girl behind him in the passenger`s seat and then a smaller person, possibly a child in the other seat.

But there`s some inconsistencies with her story, they tell us. So they are trying to look at it further. The sheriff in the county also saying, though, this county is just wide open. Filled with state roads, rural roads. If somebody wanted to, they could get lost in that part of the country sparsely populated for days.

JACKSON: Paul Vercammen, CNN correspondent, great reporting. Thanks for bringing that to us. We appreciate it.

After the break, we are going to have much more from another person who knows the family. Stay tuned.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hannah mentioned to me a big secret and asked her what it was and then she told me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know Hannah did say she was a little creeped out when Jim did tell her that he had a crush on her.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She said she wouldn`t go up there because it was too awkward between them.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They may be watching this. Please don`t hurt my family. They`re my only little cousins. Please bring my cousin home.


JACKSON: It really weighs on you emotionally. You know, the California highway patrol extended its amber alert to Washington state, Oregon and Nevada after two people reported seeing a car that looked a lot like DiMaggio`s traveling in a northwest direction.

The first sighting came in from a gas station owner, in Alturas California which is about a 13-hour drive from DiMaggio`s home in boulevard, California. The next sighting was reported in Lakeview, Oregon which is about another hour north of Alturas. Police viewed surveillance footages well for both possible sightings but unfortunately were unable to see the car.


LIEUTENANT GLENN GIANNANTONIO, SAN DIEGO SHERIFF`S OFFICE: He could be anywhere at this point. We`ve had law enforcement agencies across the country who are following up on tips and checking on suspicious vehicles that they think may have been related to them. So far all of them have come up negative.


JACKSON: It`s obvious from these possible sightings that people are on the lookout for this car. How is it that DiMaggio has seemingly vanished? Perhaps it`s evidence that he`s hunkered down and not on the move. This manhunt is a real needle in a hay stack. It really is.

Now, you know, I want to examine the psychological implications of this and what is that all about. We are fortunate to be joined by Seth Myers. He is a clinical psychologist out of Los Angeles.

Seth, what can you tell us about perhaps frame of mind, what could lead somebody to this? I mean, how this came about. What is your best analysis, Seth?

SETH MYERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, you know, I`m thinking a million things. First of all, what I think he was planning this for a very long time. I don`t think this was some split decision that he made and in an irrational moment. I think it`s a real -- it`s very interesting to think about why now? So he has known the family for so long. But what made him do this now?

So, a couple of things I`m wondering is, was there a new boyfriend in the mix that started to make him a little bit nervous? Someone who is going to take her away from him. Was he starting to think she`ll be 18 soon? She will leave home. I`m going to lose my grasp on her. So, these are very desperate attempts for him to hold onto her as strong as he can. But boy, he will stop at nothing to get what he wants. And he won`t let anyone block him. So, I believe he planned out in advance where he is keeping her.

And the final thought I have is, you know, recently he talked about the Castro story in Cleveland. I wonder did he possibly get some ideas from that story.

JACKSON: You know, that`s interesting, Seth. If I could stay with you momentarily before we bring in the lawyers. And let me ask you this question. You mentioned it could have been or in your view was a planned event. Now, what would suggest that to you as opposed to him just snapping and losing it and all the sudden deciding to leave with her and burn a home. What evidence is there to suggest to you that this was something he was preplanning for a while?

MYERS: Yes, well it seems orchestrated. So, he managed some way to get them all over to his house. He successfully infiltrated the family a long time ago. He has been able to avoid cops until this point.

JACKSON: You know, he really has. And I hope he has not able to avoid them for too much longer, Seth. That remains to be seen. But, you know, we will stay focused on that and we thank you.

You know, I want to go in to the lion`s den. And what is so bizarre about the case is the suspect`s apparent transformation from the trusted uncle Jim to a socio path on the run. Hannah`s dad says DiMaggio was one of his best friend for more than 16 years.


ANDERSON: He and I had a close relationship over the years. And we have done many, many things throughout the years together, and he is basically became like part of our family. He was constantly there for me. There was nothing ever to show any indication of this. He -- everybody you can even talk to loved Jim. He would give you the shirt off his back. I can`t fathom what happened in Jim`s head. Obviously, he just lost it.


JACKSON: In the lion`s den, we have Philip Snyder for the defense. Of course, a criminal defense attorney and you know her well. A former prosecutor and now defense attorney Holly Hughes.

Holly, let me start with you. What do you make of any of this. You have a person that is seemingly normal. He has infiltrated the family as we just talked to the fine doctor about. And all of the sudden, it is just or whether he planned it, he just burns down a home and then just decides to abscond (ph) with a 16-year-old? What`s your take, Holly?

HOLLY HUGHES, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, see this sociopathic behavior, a lot of these guys are able to blend in, right? When Ted Bundy was revealed as serial killer, everybody said, but he was so normal. He was so nice. He was law student. He was a smart guy. He volunteered on a suicide hotline, Joey.

So these guys can blend and they can seem normal, but at some point he became obsessed with Hannah. Now, he had been in Hannah`s life since six months before she was born. He was in the parents` life. So, what we see is, you know, these feelings creeping out. He`s developing. She`s telling people it`s a little creepy. He`s got a crush on me. And this is what we see with sociopathic behavior. Can only fool people for so long and then those behaviors are going to sneak out. They`re going to manifest.

JACKSON: It`s really crazy, Holly.

And you know, I want to go to Philip Snyder, criminal defense attorney.

I mean, you know, what do you make of this, Philip? It seems to me, you know, Holly mentioned this is a person who has been in the limelight six months before even the birth and all of the sudden everything is normal. He is uncle Jim and now he`s on the run. We are talking about an explosive, perhaps in the car. We are talking about people avoiding the car. What do you think is going on here?

PHILIP SNYDER, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know what, I don`t know. It`s very, very interesting. Like Holly said, this guy has been in their life for years. What has triggered him at this point, assuming he`s the individual who did commit the crime to do something so outrageous and so vile. And what I found to be very sad and disheartening is that the father in his speech seems, to the public, seems to have already given up hope that his son has passed. And that evident, hasn`t come to life. And he made a plea to his friend saying please bring back my daughter. The whole thing is very sad and very, very disturbing.

JACKSON: Absolutely. And Philip, I want to ask you and Holly, I want you weigh in on this because Seth before talked about perhaps, it was planned versus someone who is snapped. I mean, you know, is that a view that you share, Philip? And what about you, Holly? Philip first.

SNYDER: Well, it`s certainly possible. I mean, for someone to do something this outrageous, to burn down a house with a woman inside, potentially an 8-year-old boy inside and a dog inside that has no previous background that I know of mental health history. It seems as if, assuming again, this is the individual who committed the crime, it was planned. He was waiting for that exact opportunity to commit his vile act.

JACKSON: Holly, do you agree?

HUGHES: I absolutely believe it`s planned out. And the point is, you know, you don`t just light a match and throw nit a pile of newspapers and poof, you have this raging inferno. If you want to burn a place down, you are going to use accelerant, Joey. That means you have to have to bring gas cans full of gasoline. You have to have different points of origin. We also think it`s so easy to burn a body. It`s not that simple. He`s on the run. We can`t find him. He absolutely planned this out.

JACKSON: Oh, boy. A lot more of this to come.

Next, we are going to talk to another friend of Hannah Anderson`s. That`s on the other side.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We trusted. He knew that he could take this job out of state because of man was going to look over his family while he was gone.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a picture of Hannah Anderson. She is a white female, 16-years-old.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We all miss you, Hannah. We love you so much.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a picture of Ethan Anderson. He`s an 8-year- old boy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: The man hunt for James Lee DiMaggio. Where did he go after cops say he killed a mother, a child and torched his home?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have law enforcement agencies across the country following up on tips.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Who is DiMaggio and how did he just disappear?


JACKSON: Just so confounding. You know, James DiMaggio`s ex-wife was on Nancy Grace last night and had this to say about her ex-husband.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was very nice. He was great to my son. I had a son and my son was about 5-years-old and he was just an all around nice guy. And he gave me no reason to have -- there was no red flags whatsoever.


JACKSON: You know, time and time again we have heard family members and friends say what a nice guy that DiMaggio really was. Was he also, I mean, a close long-time friend of Anderson and the family? Everyone says what a wonderful person he is.

I want to bring in Haley Wilcock. She`s a close friend of the family. And maybe you, Halley. can shine some light on this particular issue. Can you give us a sense of the nature of the relationship, the family? I mean, we just also confounded by this because everyone seems to speak so positively about him.

HALEY WILCOCK, FRIEND OF HANNAH ANDERSON (via phone): Yes, I mean, he always seemed to me from what Hannah said to be such a cool guy and like one of her best buds, and he was always there for her. So I was surprised when I found out that uncle Jim was the one that did this.

JACKSON: So, let me ask on that point, Haley. So, just to be clear. She even said, you know, Hannah was expressing to you that he is a nice guy. He treats me well. He`s a friend of mine. Those are things you heard before?

WILCOCK: Yes, I mean, she like I never met him personally, but she would send me snapshots of him and uncle Jim hanging out or, you know, send me texts and pics say hanging out with uncle Jim, you know, such a cool guy. Just having fun, kicking back. Never seemed that he was -- I mean, she might have told others. She never told me that he was weird or she didn`t like him. I mean, she always said that he was such a cool guy.

JACKSON: Haley, did you ever get the sense that the relationship crossed the line or that he potentially may have been, you know, then smitten or infatuated with her? Did any of that come about in your discussion with Hannah?

WILCOCK: Not per our discussion. But I mean, her good friend Allen, I mean, he said that she told him he weird her out sometimes with the -- you know, personal stuff like you`re so pretty and all that stuff that you guys have heard. But personally, she never told me that he weird her out or anything.

JACKSON: Now, have you -- did you meet him before? Did you know Jim, yourself, or just knew of him?

WILCOCK: Knew of him.

JACKSON: OK. So, there was no, you couldn`t give a judgment about who he was based on you having sat and spoken with him or anything else, right?


JACKSON: But you are pretty confident and clear that Hannah, he was someone that she confided in, trusted and the like?


JACKSON: Like what might be your take as to what happened here. I mean, I know you would sort of be guessing or speculating like the rest of us. But someone like her who knew her well and knew her description of who Jim was and the relationship they had. What do you make of what happened here?

WILCOCK: Honestly, I don`t know what sparked in him like he never seemed like, from what I`ve been told by her, to be creepy. I mean, some friends said he weird her out and saying that she`s pretty and he was there for her too much, maybe. But not like creepy or anything. Like he would do something like this. Like it`s such a shock to everyone.

JACKSON: I`m sorry, go ahead.

WILCOCK: And it`s just like before I heard someone say maybe she got a new boyfriend that made him jealous. But she didn`t have any boyfriends or people that she talked to recently. So, I don`t really understand at all.

JACKSON: Yes, you know what, Haley, you don`t understand it. We don`t understand it. We just hope and pray for the best. And we are just so appreciative you took the time to join us, OK? Thank you so much, Haley.

WILCOCK: No problem. Anything that could help at all.

JACKSON: Absolutely.

You know, we will stay on the search and, of course, bring you any and all new developments as they take place. We just pray for her and her family.

In another story, the jury is expected to begin deliberations tomorrow in the Joshua Young murder case. He is, of course, the baby faced killer or just a -- is he that or is he a manipulator? Someone who his father manipulated? We`re going to find out.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You admitted to hurting some an falls during that statement, didn`t you?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Admitted to beating a dog to death?

GOUKER: I mean it was just one whack. You all make it sound more sinister than it was. The thing (EXPLETIVE DELETED) and everything. It was broke. It was a broke dog. It was dying.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- that you beat a dog to death?

GOUKER: Yes, I`ve been sentenced for it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you beat a cat? Killed a cat and threw it away?





GOUKER: I said, "Josh, if they catch us you just play crazy."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was just as scared of Josh Young as I was of Josh Gouker.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Little Josh had said he did it and that he was a slugger.

JASON MOSS, FORMER JAILMATE OF JOSH GOUKER: He wanted an eye for an eye. He went to talk his son into killing Trey.

CHUCK STONEBURNER, FORMER FOSTER PARENT TO JOSH YOUNG: He was a great kid in school, great kid around the house.

MOSS: He said that he didn`t have to do much persuasion because his son was a demon child.

STONEBURNER: Just another one of Gouker`s manipulations.


JACKSON: A pleasant good evening to you. I`m Joey Jackson in for my friend, Jane Velez-Mitchell.

The defense rests in the Joshua Young trial as they make their last attempt to establish that he`s no murderer. It took them roughly 30 minutes to quickly question about four witnesses today. The goal, to show that Josh and the victim, his stepbrother were friends, and that Josh was upset after he found out about his stepbrother`s murder.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you describe Joshua Young`s demeanor in the car going to his funeral?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Very sad, very distraught -- teary-eyed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who were the pall bearers? Do you remember?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I only remember one specific, which was my nephew, Joshua Young.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what was his demeanor during the service?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was very sad. He held his head low and teary- eyed.


JACKSON: The prosecution`s theory, of course, is that Josh helped his dad brutally beat 14-year-old Trey Zwicker to death. He`s charged with murdering the teen whose bludgeoned body was found in a ditch.

Little Josh`s dad, this man, confessed to the crime and was sentenced to life in prison. He now claims he acted alone. But first he tried to blame, put all the blame on Little Josh. What will the jury decide as they begin deliberations tomorrow?

Joining me now, a very special guest, that`s Shelly Stewart -- she`s the victim`s grandmother. Now the prosecution and defense have rested, do you think Joshua Young is responsible for your grandson`s murder, and of course, before you answer that, Miss Stewart, our condolences to you and condolences, of course, to your family. But what are your views on that now that the case has gone to the jury?

SHELLY STEWART, TREY ZWICKER`S GRANDMOTHER: I think he`s just as guilty as his father and all the rest of them that were involved.

JACKSON: And what do you base that upon? Is there some type of evidence that was seen during the course of the trial? Was there something that was more compelling to you than something else? Or was it just the gravity of all of the evidence that you saw?

STEWART: It`s because I`ve been there since Little Josh came into my grandson`s life. Before this tragic incident ever happened, I would be there for supper. I would be there for different things. And he would be just like his father -- that`s how Trey worded it. "Grandma, I can`t stand him. He`s just like his father."

JACKSON: And when you say "just like his father" is there something -- I mean, what type of person really was he? Was he an angry person? Was he a mean-spirited person? Was he an evil person? And in addition to that, Miss Stewart, could you tell us what specific instances or facts might establish that if you believe he was evil. Did he do something in particular or some things in particular?

STEWART: He just never had any kind of emotion. Like no emotional ties to anyone in the family. One day he had took a fork and stabbed the neighbor`s dog, and his father said, "You don`t just injure it, you kill it."

JACKSON: Goodness gracious.


STEWART: And they thought like it was funny.

JACKSON: Yes, certainly nothing funny about that, Miss Stewart. Were there instances that you know that are like that? I mean was this some isolated instance? Or was he the type of person, Joshua, who would engage in this behavior regularly?

STEWART: I don`t know if he did it regularly or anything like that. But I`d never seen the child smile. I`d never seen him laugh. I`d never seen any kind of emotion out of him at all. Except for the day that they buried my grandson, him and his dad were out in the backyard laughing and wrestling and having a good time. That was the first time I ever saw any kind of emotion out of him.

JACKSON: Now, there are indications that at the funeral he was pretty teary-eyed and he was pretty upset about the fact that he lost his brother. Is that something that you did not observe or something that you would take issue with?

STEWART: That lady, she wasn`t even there. Me, my daughter Amanda, McKenzie, Little Josh, Big Josh, my son Jeremy, we were all the ones that were together all during that time. That lady showed up after the funeral at my daughter`s home.

JACKSON: And let me ask you this, Miss Stewart. You know, given -- I know you think he wasn`t good person -- he was sort of like his dad -- but what about his relationship with his brother? Is there any indication based on his relationship that he didn`t like his brother? Meant his brother harm or would do anything like this?

STEWART: He was jealous of Trey and Amanda`s relationship because, I guess because he didn`t have that kind of relationship because his mother had passed away. And he would take Trey`s things like Trey`s cell phone, Trey`s clothing and things like that and Trey would beg his mother to get it back from him. The last night I saw Trey, Little Josh had Trey`s phone then.

JACKSON: And what would you like to say to Josh if you had an opportunity to speak with him?

STEWART: I had nothing to say. I said what I had to say to Big Josh on the stand the other day. But other than that, I have nothing to say to none of them because to me, there`s -- I don`t know. I have no way of disclaiming it but they don`t mean anything to me anymore.

JACKSON: Sure. We understand that. Listen, you know, you`re brave to join us. We greatly appreciate that, Miss Stewart. And again, our blessings and condolences to your and your family.

STEWART: Ok. Thank you very much.

JACKSON: Thank you.

You know, Josh Young`s aunt testified today about how distraught Little John (SIC) was after his stepbrother was found dead, even crying at times. Listen to her statement again and then we`ll debate it.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you describe Joshua Young`s demeanor in the car going to his funeral?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Very sad, very distraught -- teary-eyed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who were the pall bearers? Do you remember?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I only remember one specific, which was my nephew, Joshua Young.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what was his demeanor during the service?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was very sad. He held his head low and teary- eyed.


JACKSON: So does the fact that Joshua may have appeared upset or teary- eyed establish that he`s innocent in any way at all? We`re going to "The Lion`s Den" to answer that question. And you see them there, our lions ready to go.

We have J. Wyndal Gordon, an attorney, for the prosecution --

J. WYNDAL GORDON, ATTORNEY: How are you doing Joey?

JACKSON: Very good. And you?

And we have Kelly Saindon, prosecutor -- former prosecutor out of Chicago and of course, as in our last block, we have Holly Hughes for the defense as well as Philip Snyder.

So let`s get into this. The fact that someone seems to be upset at a funeral -- and I`ll go to you, J. Wyndal Gordon -- what`s your take on that? Someone`s teary-eyed -- does that mean that they`re innocent.

GORDON: It doesn`t mean that they`re innocent. But in this particular case, people grieve different kinds of ways. And it always bothers me that people criticize the way people grieve. He`s not grieving enough or he overdoing it with the grief. In this case, the fact that he seemed to be stoic or lacking emotion does not in any way, at least in my opinion, show that he is guilty or innocent.


JACKSON: Holly Hughes has something to say about that.

GORDON: There has to be more than just that.

JACKSON: I got you.

HOLLY HUGHES, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you`re trying to paint -- the prosecution wants the jury to see this kid as a monster like his father is. I think we can all pretty much agree that the father is a beast.

GORDON: I think he`s a psycho path.

HUGHES: He`s being questioned on the stand and he`s joking and laughing about killing animals, right? So the prosecution wants you to believe that this kid is just as bad. But when you hear something like this, it humanizes him, without him having to take the stand. It is a way for his lawyers to show the jury he has feelings. It upset him. He was, you know, sad that his stepbrother was murdered. So, it`s a way for the defense attorneys to humanize him.

JACKSON: Kelly Saindon, Philip Snyder -- we know you`re chomping at the bit to get into this and you absolutely will when we get back from the break.


GOUKER: How do you not see this late in the game? I mean all I had to do was convince that guy right there, which I did. You know what I`m saying? He drooped his arms around me. I was on the "First 48" 19 times, you know, and I`m doing the right thing the whole time. Every time I tell him, he would do this. Every time I tell him come here, he would do that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re the mastermind, right?

GOUKER: You can call it what you want. It`s not easy to be a mastermind when you`re dealing with dumb people. That guy couldn`t find (EXPLETIVE DELETED) at a strip club.




GOUKER: I would not plan on killing Trey for nothing. That`s what we wanted them to think that Josh did it because he`s a juvenile.

I said, Josh, if they catch us, you just play crazy. You know, you`re a minor.

He didn`t have nothing to do with it.

Josh loves me.

I let him down, man.


JACKSON: The final defense witness was called today. And that was a social worker who visited the family`s house once a month. She said that she saw Little Josh and his stepbrother spending time together twice, and that she never saw any hostility between the boys.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When I showed up at the home they were sitting together on the couch playing video games, very relaxed, kind of joking with each other.


JACKSON: Back out to "The Lion`s Den". Kelly, Saindon, you`ve been patient. Philip Snyder, you`ve been patient. What say you, Kelly, on the issue of listen, the family`s social worker went to the home. She didn`t seem to suggest -- there was no suggestion of any type of difficulty between the two kids.

KELLY SAINDON, FORMER PROSECUTOR: On the prosecution side I would say, well, obviously, these kids were told if you want to stay in the home, you better get along when she`s here. Josh Young didn`t want to go back to foster care, and Trey was worried about his little sister. According to all the testimony in there, he didn`t want to leave his littler sister with Gouker alone. I would say it was terrific acting.

Who cares? That has nothing to do with whether or not Young killed Trey and whether or not he was involved in the case. So it`s irrelevant. It`s a great story by the defense. But they`re not taking this seriously. And their half hour of a defense for a child that`s facing life in prison was (inaudible) across the board.

JACKSON: Kelly, I tend to believe that Philip Snyder will have a lot to say about that, am I wrong?

PHILIP SNYDER, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Poor (inaudible). This guy should have never been there. He should be at home playing video games. He`s on trial for complicity to murder. There`s no evidence that --

SAINDON: And as a defense attorney, you`re only going to be there for a half hour?

SNYDER: There`s no direct evidence of the crime scene. There`s no direct evidence that he used a weapon. In fact he said he used a bat when their own ME said it was a pipe. The fact that he`s even sitting there is a crime. Thirty minutes they just went up there to say something. They didn`t have to say anything. It should be a not guilty verdict.

JACKSON: Ah, Kelly. Go ahead.


GORDON: I would say the same thing that the defense lawyer said. He didn`t have to put on a case at all. The fact that they put on something probably was too much as it was. This case is --

SAINDON: It`s ridiculous.

GORDON: -- replete with reasonable doubt.

SAINDON: Only 30 minutes. And so if he goes to jail for the rest of his life, are you going to say, well, I guess he didn`t do a great job, but he shouldn`t have had to defend the kid. The kid is on trial the rest of his life. Do your job. Do your job.

GORDON: So how long do you think his defense should have taken? It should have taken more than 30 minutes. It doesn`t matter --

SAINDON: At a minimum, half a day.

GORDON: The number of witnesses that you have, you deal with the quality of the evidence.

SNYDER: You`re dealing with --


JACKSON: Order in the court.

SAINDON: That`s ridiculous. They`re not taking it seriously.

JACKSON: Listen. You guys are great. You have a lot more to say. And we want to hear what you have to say and we`re going to hear it when we come back.


STONEBURNER: Gouker, as I understand him more and more is a manipulator with just unbelievable -- unbelievably capable of manipulating systems and people and I think that`s what he`s done in this case.




MOSS: Trey`s mom had an abortion. He wanted an eye for an eye.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have nothing to say. I decline.

MOSS: He wanted to talk his son into killing Trey. He was going to man up and take the blame for it. He said that he didn`t have to do much persuasion because his son was a demon child.


JACKSON: Straight back out to my rambunctious "Lion`s Den". We want you to behave yourself. This is the last block -- 15 seconds apiece. We`re going to play round robin. We`re going to play nicely. Is there going to be a conviction or acquittal? I`m going to start with you, Holly Hughes. What say you?

HUGHES: Acquittal.

JACKSON: And your reasoning?

HUGHES: Because the best defense team -- this wasn`t a 30-minute defense, Joey. They have been working since the moment they stood up to greet the jury in voir dire. What they did was got what they needed on cross examination of the witness. They have been working this case the entire time. And they are able to offer up an alternative demon, an alternative monster to this jury.

JACKSON: Got you. J. Wyndal Gordon, what say you?

GORDON: Acquittal for the same reasons. I`m a bit short-winded -- an acquittal for the same reasons.

JACKSON: A lawyer being short-winded. Kelly -- what do you say Kelly Saindon?

SAINDON: He needs to be convicted. This kid was involved. And so I`m hoping that the prosecution did their job. The defense did a nice job. But the reality of the situation is I do believe they`re going to meet the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt that he was complicit to murder.

JACKSON: Kelly Saindon, always putting up a great fight. And of course, Philip Snyder, close us out -- acquittal or conviction and why?

SNYDER: It`s an acquittal. It`s never good when your star witness is already in jail for murder for this charge for the rest of his life and he says "My son had nothing to do with it." It`s a guaranteed acquittal.

JACKSON: That would be a very good reason, Philip. Listen. I think you. I thank the rest of the panel -- J. Wyndal Gordon, Kelly Saindon, Philip Snyder, Holly Hughes -- you guys are terrific.

GORDON: Thank you.

HUGHES: Thanks, Joey.

SAINDON: Thanks Joey.

JACKSON: And we will have a lot more coming up next.


JACKSON: The jury is expected to get the Joshua Young case tomorrow. We will be all over it.

A pleasant good evening to you. I`m Joey Jackson -- it`s my pleasure filling in for Jane Velez-Mitchell.

"NANCY GRACE" is next.