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PIERS MORGAN LIVE
Code Words in Al Qaeda Intercepts; Inside Hannah's Rescue; Hostage Drama in Louisiana; More Guns, Less Crime?; Cory Booker Wins N.J. Senate Primary
Aired August 13, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PIERS MORGAN, HOST: This is PIERS MORGAN LIVE. Welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world. Tonight, breaking news. CNN has learned that code words intercepted al Qaeda communications sparked fears of an imminent attack, and called for closings of U.S. embassies in the Middle East and North Africa. We'll have more on that in a moment. Plus, inside the rescue of Hannah Anderson. Dramatic new details of the moment searchers knew they had James DiMaggio, her kidnapper, in their sights.
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STEVE JURMAN, SUPERVISOR, DEPUTY U.S. MARSHALL: Because they were spotted so quickly, everybody was kind of taken off guard. We really were trenching ourselves in for a long, drawn-out search.
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PIERS MORGAN, CNN HOST: I'll talk live to the man who rescued Hannah and new questions about James DiMaggio himself. Were drugs involved in the crime? I'll ask his close friend.
Also Ed Smart, how his daughter Elizabeth survived kidnapping when she was only 14 years old and what his advice would be for Hannah Anderson.
Plus the man who says more guns equals less crime. Well, you know how I feel about that argument so I'm sure that we'll have a lively debate when I go head-to-head with AWR Hawkins, particularly as it's been revealed by CNN today that gun sales have been rocketing in Newtown where the Sandy Hook massacre took place. He's on "The Grill" tonight.
And why "The Daily Show" owes me 10 grand.
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JOHN OLIVER, "THE DAILY SHOW": We'd like to personally offer $10,000 in reward to anyone who can bring me footage of Piers Morgan falling off the Segway.
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MORGAN: Well, guess what? I have that footage and you, Mr. Oliver, are going to owe me $10,000. I'll play it later in the show.
I want to begin, though, with our breaking news. Intercepted al Qaeda communications that sparked the closures of U.S. embassies in the Middle East and North Africa. A source tells CNN the code words in those communications pointed to a likely imminent attack.
And joining me now with much more is CNN national security analyst Fran Townsend, former CIA operative and CNN contributor Robert Baer, and Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr who broke the story, who joins me first on the phone.
Barbara, a great scoop by you today on this. Tell me exactly what you discovered.
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (via phone): Well, Piers, in talking to someone who has a very immediate understanding of what transpired, they told me that these messages, these intercepted al Qaeda messages by the U.S. intelligence community contained essentially code words, which the intelligence community interpreted correctly, it appears, as being a coded message amongst al Qaeda operatives for signaling a potentially imminent attack.
It was those code words, Piers, that sparked the warning to close some 22 embassies and consulates because the U.S. had direct -- a direct sense, a direct knowledge that the code words pointed to imminent, an imminent attack.
But what they didn't have was a good understanding at the time of exactly where and when, therefore, they had to close all embassies in the areas of greatest concern, and as we know in recent days, it's really focused on Yemen and we have seen a number of CIA drone attacks in Yemen killing about two dozen suspected al Qaeda operatives in recent days -- Piers.
MORGAN: So do they believe, Barbara, that they've thwarted this imminent attack in the sense that nothing happened has obviously happened? Do you think that they were on top of this and managed to stop something from happening?
STARR: I think that their feeling is look, first, they had to put it out in public because they were closing so many U.S. embassies. It was going to become public knowledge rapidly, immediately across the world. So that clearly, they believe, perhaps spooked al Qaeda, especially al Qaeda in Yemen, and made them back away from an attack.
Doesn't mean we're told that the U.S. knew -- Yemen security forces aren't going after al Qaeda anyhow, but they do feel that they have pushed off the imminence of it at least for now.
MORGAN: Barbara Starr, thank you very much indeed.
Let me bring in Fran Townsend.
Fran, pretty significant that the intelligence services in America were able to get right to the heart of communications between the very top members of al Qaeda here. What is the significance do you think of this?
FRANCES FRAGOS TOWNSEND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CONTRIBUTOR: Piers, I think it can't be understated. And not only have been able to intercept the communications but the key here is understanding what it is you're listening to. You know, you learn what the code words are, what -- from people you capture, from surveillance, from your foreign allies, and then what you're able to do is search through.
It's the needle in the haystack, finding those communications that are the most significant. What I think it says, Piers, is that the -- the U.S. intelligence community working with its allies around the world is far more sophisticated than it was prior to 9/11. We know prior to 9/11 al Qaeda used a very complicated set of codes that we didn't understand, even if we -- even to the extent we were able to do interceptions and now, you know, more than a decade later, we've got an intelligence system that collects it, analyzes it, and then can act on it in a way we didn't 10 years ago.
MORGAN: Bob Baer, obviously in the short term you would say it's been successful intelligence operation. But have they dealt with that intelligence in the right way by effectively blowing the cover, if you'd like, on this infiltration? Have they perhaps caused a bigger problem going forward?
ROBERT BAER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: No, Piers. They have to. They have -- they have to put this out. They have to put it out in public because if an attack did occur and they didn't say anything and a lot of people lost their lives, the political, you know, downside would just be enormous.
So they pretty much have to expose themselves when they believe there is an imminent threat. I think they did the right thing. The problems with these codes is they're substitution codes. They can change every day. You know, Tuesday will become Wednesday and vice- versa, the following week.
And they're horribly frustrating to figure out. I mean, I faced them and I was absolutely sure an attack was coming and recorded it, and it turned out to not have happened and it occurred, for instance, a year later.
MORGAN: Fran Townsend, finally, does this mean that al Qaeda is still alive and well and as dangerous as ever?
TOWNSEND: I think it's clear that al Qaeda is not on the run, right? So you've got al Qaeda in the name of Zawahiri as the new leader, communicating with al- Wuhayshi in Yemen, the head of the Yemen al Qaeda group, and we know from Barbara Starr's reporting that they are communicating and they're planning an imminent attack.
And so look, we shouldn't underestimate, they still have operational capability. They have not been able to launch a successful attack because of our own ability to thwart them. But they're still clearly pretty determined.
MORGAN: Fran Townsend, Bob Baer, thank you both very much indeed.
And I want to turn to new details of the raid that freed Hannah Anderson from her captor. Joining me now is Deputy U.S. Marshall Steve Jurman whose team rescued Hannah.
Welcome to you, Marshall Jurman. This is a dramatic rescue and extremely successful one. Tell me from your perspective how it all went down.
JURMAN: Well, Piers, it's nice to be here, thank you. Friday we received a tip from the horseback riders that had potentially seen Hannah and DiMaggio and also a cat. The cat is kind of what made them think things were a little bit odd that these people were in the back country with a cat.
It was one -- it was actually the 200th tip that we had followed up on. We were chasing tips all over the country. And then it became really significant when a state trooper with the Idaho State Police found the vehicle. At that point we dedicated all resources to the fugitive investigation in Idaho.
Myself, the case agent with the United States Marshall Service and U.S. Marshalls pilot boarded a small surveillance plane here and we immediately went to Idaho. We got briefed up that night --
MORGAN: And in this -- I'm sorry, continue. Yes.
JURMAN: Yes, we got briefed up that night, and the next morning we had an all-hands briefing at the command post which was set up in Cascade, Idaho.
And to give you an idea of the enormity of the operation, Cascade was two -- and two-hour drive away from the trail head where the car was found. And then their last sighting was another eight-mile hike into the -- into the wilderness. It was very rugged, remote location.
Once we got an idea of the enormity of that situation, myself and a supervisor, a deputy U.S. Marshall from Idaho and the U.S. Marshall's pilot boarded that small aircraft and we decided to take an aerial surveillance look at what we were looking at.
MORGAN: And we actually have a picture actually -- Marshall Jurman, I want to -- I want to -- while you said that, I want to show a picture that you took, I believe, from the aircraft that showed the immediate vicinity of where it looked like they were located. Tell me about this.
JURMAN: Yes, you can see that it's not a very large lake. It's probably the size of maybe an Olympic pool. It's a small little mountain lake and it's covered probably by three sides of sheer cliff. They were located at the north end of that lake, about 9:00 from your picture, in a small blue tent. We had intel that a small blue tent was in the area. It wasn't 100 percent confirmed whether a blue tent was part of the DiMaggio's campsite or not but then we were able to confirm later on through continuous flyovers, that it was a male and a blond headed female, and then later we were able to identify a small animal, and we believe that to be the cat. And that's when we know we really had something.
MORGAN: And I know you can't talk about the specifics of the FBI side of this, but you called in the FBI Hostage and Rescue team and the rest we know about that made a successful rescue. But without, I think, the work that you and your men have done before that, it would have been a much harder job. So congratulations to you, Marshall Jurman, and all your team and thank you for joining me.
JURMAN: Thank you. Appreciate it.
MORGAN: Coming up next, I want to bring in a man who's had new information about suspect James DiMaggio almost every day in the last week. Andrew Spanswick is a friend of DiMaggio. He's also a therapist and CEO of the Clean Treatment Center.
Also joining me is Ed Smart. His daughter Elizabeth Smart was snatched from her bedroom in the middle of the night when she was 14 years old and was found alive nine months later.
Ed Smart joins me via Skype.
Let me talk to you first, Andrew, if I may. We've talked regularly in the last week. What is the latest information you have? I know you've been talking again to James DiMaggio's only surviving sibling, Laura.
ANDREW SPANSWICK, FRIEND OF JAMES DIMAGGIO: Yes. Today has been a rough day for her. The body has been transported and is on its way to be cremated. She decided to have the body cremated so that there wouldn't be any gravesite where people could, you know, cause a disturbance or whatnot.
She's taken hair samples. She's very interested in getting a toxicology report to see if he was using methamphetamine or any other drugs to see if it's sort of the working thesis or what might have brought on this horrible tragedy.
MORGAN: Let me bring in Ed Smart, if I may.
Obviously, you're one of the few people, I guess, in America who knows exactly how Brett, Hannah's father, has been feeling in the last week. Obviously, a very happy ending to this, as indeed it was in your case, but tell me how you feel about what he's been going through and what advice you would give them as a family going forward?
ED SMART, ELIZABETH SMART'S FATHER: Well, you know, you're on this roller coaster certainly with the death of his wife and son that had to be, I would almost say, catastrophic, and then to not know whether your daughter was still alive or not for a period of time, you know, we had that roller coaster effect emotionally that, you know, we would hear that a body had been found or a burned body or bones or, you know, any type of scenario out there.
And certainly that that puts you on an emotional roller coaster to get the word that your child is still alive is, you know, there is no other word than miracle that comes to mind, and certainly, a wonderful day in the midst of a total nightmare that she had survived.
Now we haven't heard anything about how DiMaggio may have manipulated her, and fortunately, you know, he is no longer around for her sake, and I'm hoping that with time, you know, she'll be able to pick up and move forward and, you know, to me, I think one of the most important things is that they remain private and they -- you know, they don't go out into public or do media requests at this point because I think, you know, it takes settling down and certainly in their scenario where, you know, they have lost two family members.
You know, that's going to be incredibly difficult and I think privacy and being able to find that new normal is something that is very important in, you know, certainly for both of them to, you know, reconnect and be able to have that privacy is very important.
MORGAN: Ed Smart, thank you so much for joining me. And Andrew Spanswick, as always, you've been extremely useful in getting to understand some of the motivation perhaps behind what James DiMaggio did and I'm grateful to you both for joining me.
When we come back, a man who believes more guns equal less crime. AWR Hawkins is on "The Grill" tonight. I would expect a lively encounter.
Also ahead, a sinkhole that followed a Florida resort. I'll talk to a mother who barely escaped with her young son and a hero rescuer.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You could actually see the building coming apart at that time and you just react and start getting people out. You don't think, you just do it.
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MORGAN: Breaking news tonight in a hostage situation in Louisiana. Three people are being held at gunpoint in a bank in a small town of St. Joseph. Negotiators from the state's bomb squad members have been outside since about 2:00 p.m. Eastern. None of the hostages is believed to be injured and the gunman is reported to be an employee of a local convenience store.
Well, joining me now is Chief Karl Jones of the St. Joseph Police Department.
I thank you very much for joining me, Chief. What is the latest in the situation down there?
CHIEF KARL JONES, ST. JOSEPH, LOUISIANA POLICE: We're in negotiation stages with the individual that's in the bank. There are some demands that he have asked for and had negotiators from the federal level and the state level that is talking with him at this time. We're just trying to work through this at this point.
MORGAN: And do you believe that he is heavily armed?
JONES: Well, we do understand that he is armed. As to what degree, you know, we really have no way of knowing at this point. We don't want to speculate. But we have reason to believe so.
MORGAN: Well, Chief, we wish you all the very best down there in what is obviously a fluid situation. We'll bring any viewers any updates as to when we have them through this hour.
Thank you very much indeed for joining me.
The eight months after the massacre in Newtown there's been a spike in the desire to own guns in Connecticut. State wide, there'd been 90,000 guns have been authorized for sale. You know how I feel about this issue.
Well, joining me now is a man who couldn't disagree with me more. He believes that more guns equals less crime. On "The Grill" tonight, AWR Hawkins, Breitbart News contributor with a PhD in military history.
Welcome to you, Mr. Hawkins. Tell me first of all about the situation in --
AWR HAWKINS, BREITBART NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Thank you, Piers. Great to be with you.
MORGAN: Yes. This situation in Newtown, is it not disconcerting that in the very place where we saw this horrendous massacre that we see such a spike in gun sales?
HAWKINS: Well, I'm attracted to these stories on gun sales as in Virginia, as into other states that you mentioned because they demonstrate that more guns equal less crime, and I think it's important that we understand that when you or President Obama or whoever supports forcibly disarming the American citizenry, we make the vulnerable more vulnerable. We make the weak or those prone to attack more prone to attack and that's especially true of women.
And, Piers, that's what's really on my mind when I think about the fact that when we take guns away women cannot defend themselves. The numbers bear that out. And gun control will never fix this. Gun control never makes the vulnerable less vulnerable. It always makes them more vulnerable.
For me, I want to see not just men but women be able to defend their lives with guns as needed and that means they need access to them. As they have access to them, we see more guns less crime.
MORGAN: How do you explain then that so many other countries that have brought in tough gun control have seen gun crime dramatically reduced? And I'm thinking of Great Britain. I'm thinking Australia, Japan, Germany. I mean, there are dozens of countries that have gone the complete opposite way to America and seen a dramatic reduction in the gun murder rate.
Why not America?
HAWKINS: Well, I think that's a great question. Let me tell you a story and then I can answer that. The story is real fast. The first week of January, there was a woman in Georgia. A gentleman was breaking into her home. She grabbed her two kids, she swept them up. She ran into the attic. The intruder came to the house. He started kicking into her attic door.
She's on the cell phone, Piers. Her husband is going, shoot him, shoot him, shoot him. She shot him five times. She stopped the attack. Although she didn't kill him, she stopped the attack.
What I would ask you, Piers, respectively, what I would ask you is, I would like my wife to be armed were she in that situation. Would you want your wife to be armed were she in that position?
MORGAN: Why don't we take a woman who was in this very position, a woman who armed herself to the teeth, as it turned out, to protect herself exactly in the way that you're talking about. She bought six guns, legally including an AR-15 assault rifle and had them in their home specifically to protect herself, as you put it, from other people who may have guns.
What she hadn't realized was that her deranged son who had severe mental issues, clearly, Adam Lanza, was going to steal her guns, walk up to her bedroom, shoot her dead in the head and then go to the local elementary school and shoot 20 children and six teachers.
So your argument that the presence of guns makes women safer, in that case looks ridiculous.
HAWKINS: Well, it doesn't, Piers, because the situation I quoted to you was real just as the situation you quoted to me. What we have to understand, gun control is ultimately a war on women, Piers. That's a true statement. Because it makes women who are prone to attack more prone to attack and prone to more frequent attack. They have no way to defend themselves.
Let's go across the pond to your country. You touched on it earlier. If I go across the pond and I look at England and Wales, for every 100,000 people, Piers. For every 100,000 there is 775 violent crimes. That category includes sexual assault. Those are crimes against women.
Now if you look at those same numbers in America for every 100,000, there are 383 violent crimes, that's less than 50 percent of what we see over -- across the pond, Piers. What's the difference?
The difference is here women can shoot back. You chase them into an attic they are going to shoot at you to protect their own lives and the lives of their children. And I'm just telling you, Piers, my opinion -- and I bet you share this opinion with me. My opinion is that those women should be able to arm themselves. They should be able to defend their lives and their bodies.
MORGAN: Yes, see, my problem is I don't want to see all the women in America armed with guns. Because unfortunately where there are guns, as we know, even in domestic environment in America, in homes, there is a much higher incidence of suicide with guns, or domestic violence with guns, and so on. So it has the complete opposite effect to what you're saying.
And also on this comparison you have drawn between Great Britain, say, and America, how do you explain this fact that in Britain we have on average 35 gun murders a year and very, very tough gun control including a ban on handguns and all assault weapons? And in America we have very lax gun control, you have 12,000 gun murders a year? How does that work in your work in your warped twisted logic? Explain to me.
HAWKINS: Well, it's a great question, Piers. Let's look at Virginia. That's what we started with. In Virginia, there was a 16 percent increase in gun sales in 2012. That's 490,119 guns were sold. Now you would expect the way you speak, Piers, for violent crime to rise proportionally. It didn't. It fell 5 percent. There was 4,378 incidents of violent crime. That includes those --
MORGAN: Which has the --
MORGAN: Which has the --
MORGAN: Which state has the highest murder rate in the country, according to the FBI? Do you know? In America?
HAWKINS: No, I haven't looked at those stats on that. But I can tell you this, Piers.
MORGAN: Allow me. Allow me to help you.
HAWKINS: I mean, look at Chicago.
MORGAN: Allow me to help you. Allow me to help you --
MORGAN: Allow me to help you. It's Virginia.
HAWKINS: Can I say one other thing, Piers?
MORGAN: Well, no, because here is the point, Mr. Hawkins. HAWKINS: OK.
MORGAN: It's Virginia, the very state you just quoted to me actually has --
HAWKINS: And you know what the good news is?
MORGAN: - the highest murder rate in the country. According to 2009 --
HAWKINS: Well, the good news is that --
HAWKINS: The good news is that that murder rate went down because they had more guns and it resulted in a 5 percent decrease in violent crime.
You want to look at a state with gun control, look at Illinois but particularly look at Chicago. In 2010 there were 1,440 sexual assaults and one year. In 2012 there were 441 murders.
Piers, think about this and I know -- I know this matters to you. Ten percent of those murders were women, 10 percent of those victims. I would prefer that those 44 women had guns to defend their lives.
In 2012 it was 512 murders, 51 of those persons approximately were women. I would prefer that those women have guns to protect their lives, Piers. Gun control is a war on women and it's a war we need to quit fighting.
MORGAN: Yes, I would tell that to the families of the women who were killed at Sandy Hook. I'm not sure they would see it quite the same way.
But Mr. Hawkins, thank you very much indeed for joining me.
HAWKINS: Thank you, Piers, appreciate it. Thank you.
MORGAN: Breaking news out of New Jersey tonight, Cory Booker has won that state's Democratic primary for the U.S. Senate. The popular mayor of Newark was expected to win. He now faces Republican Steve Lanigan in a election is October.
More on that story next with Marc Lamont Hill and S.E. Cupp. They're breaking the news wide open and these two, they really do go at it. Look at them. Like snarling tigers.
MORGAN: Let's update on our breaking news. Newark Mayor Cory Booker has won the Democratic Senate primary in New Jersey tonight. He now faced Republicans Steve Lanigan in the special election in October.
Booker is a rising star for the party but we're breaking the news tonight with Marc Lamont Hill, host of "HuffPost Live" and Columbia University professor, and S.E. Cupp, the co-host of "Crossfire". Welcome to you both.
MARC LAMONT HILL, HOST, HUFFPOST LIVE: Good to be here.
S.E. CUP, CO-HOST, CROSSFIRE: Thank you.
MORGAN: So, S.E., S.E. Cupp, if I was you, I 'd be pretty worried about this. Cory Booker to me has been one of the most impressive politicians in America for the last few years and now, racing to the Senate.
Yes, I'm not going to disagree with you. I know Cory Booker. I've spent a lot of time with him. He is an impressive guy not only is he charismatic and incredibly smart, most importantly he's disciplined. I wish we had 100 of him on the Republican side. Now I disagree with him on a lot of his policies. But believe me, that combination of charisma and discipline is something that every politician should aspire to and should take notes from Cory Booker.
MORGAN: I agree. Marc Lamont Hill.
HILL: I -- I agree as well. I mean, Cory -- Cory is the real deal. He's a strong advocate. He puts an injection of youth into the New Jersey Senate seat.
He has a good vision. And the other thing is that he's not bitterly partisan. So many people are committed to marking their ideological lines in the sand and not crossing party lines.
I think he's a rising star. And I think that's why Chris Christie made sure there would be a special election rather than a normal election because he didn't want all that Cory Booker energy going into the voting booth and driving down his landslide victory.
So I think it's a sign that he's a future star.
MORGAN: Is it unthinkable, S.E., that he could he could just fast-tracked to become a Democratic presidential nominee even as early as 2016?
CUPP: It's not unthinkable. And...
HILL: Yes, it is.
CUPP: No, I don't -- I don't think so. I mean, if you look at how quickly the democratic machine seized on Barack Obama, then a -- a Senator with very little experience and really very little reason to run for president, it's absolutely not improbable that the democratic machine would again seize on a -- a popular senator, if, in fact, he becomes one.
And like I said, discipline, in audition to Cory Booker's charisma -- discipline is what's going to get him ahead in New Jersey and in the -- in the Senate. HILL: I think -- I think long-term, he could certainly be a presidential candidate. But I -- I don't think the Democratic Party is going to push him in front of Hillary Clinton.
I don't see that as being even remotely possible. And I don't think that Cory would in particular...
CUPP: They did it once, Marc.
HILL: Yes, because there -- because the lane was wide open. I think the Clintons are well-poised to -- to defend the seat this time. And quite frankly, maybe cynically, I don't think America is nominating two black guys in a row.
MORGAN: OK, well, let's move on to Senator Ted Cruz whose problem with his own prospects may reside in the fact that he was born in Canada. What do we make of this, S.E.?
CUPP: Look, the Atlantic had a piece recently and Congressional Research Center also has debunked this. Ted Cruz can run for president.
His childhood in Calgary is not going to stop him. That said, if I were a Democrat or Republican looking to oppose him, there is other stuff you can go to on Ted Cruz.
And -- and I'm a fan of Ted Cruz's. I don't know that we need to make again his childhood in Calgary the epicenter of our disagreement with Ted Cruz. He's eligible to run.
I think we should leave that kind of...
HILL: I want to see his birth certificate, S.E. I need his (ph) birth certificate.
CUPP: No, I think we -- I think, you know, the FBI Congressional scholars are going to find all of that stuff out. It's very hard these days to hide something as big as your eligibility to run for president.
I think Republicans and Democrats to a lesser extent should stay out of the business of raising those kinds of questions. They don't serve the purpose.
MORGAN: OK, OK. Let's -- let's move on to an issue which is getting a lot of heat at the moment and understandably, stop and frisk. Now, I've heard both of you on the airways in the last 24 hours talking about this, well, coming at it from different positions.
S.E. Cupp, what is your view of stop and frisk?
CUPP: Look, I -- I don't believe that fairness should be a -- a motivating factor for law enforcement. I don't think satisfying silly sensitive liberal pieties and political correctness should be the purview of the business of law enforcement as well.
So law enforcement officials like Ray Kelly are telling me that stop and frisk is an effective policy in New York. I'd like to believe them.
That doesn't mean we don't ask tough questions about the policy and the program, doesn't mean we don't gauge its efficacy over time. But if they're telling me that it's a useful law tool, then I want to believe them.
And that's the only question I have to ask.
HILL: I am...
HILL: ...stunned in the last 24 hours of how many Republicans who have spent the last two months telling me that we can't trust the government. We can't take the government on face value when it comes to Constitutional protections, announcing, well, that the government says it, I believe it. That's not true. The...
CUPP: Not the government, not the government, Marc. And New York City law enforcement people (ph)...
HILL: Yes -- yes, which is the extension of the government.
CUPP: ...who deal with this every single day on the ground...
HILL: OK -- OK, well, let's (ph)...
CUPP: ...not a bureaucracy from up high telling every locality what to do.
HILL: No, but -- but it's the majority (ph) telling them what to do. But let's -- let's -- let's assume for a minute that it's not bureaucracy and that we should track it over time.
We can track it over time because we have data. The data suggest that very few stop and frisk incidents result in finding a gun. Very few incidents result in finding anyone guilty.
And most of the time, when they're guilty, they're guilty of carrying marijuana, which doesn't lead to broader crimes. No one's against stop and frisk.
That's a false argument. The argument here is that -- is -- is there a way to implement stop and frisk that doesn't violate the fourth and 14th amendments. And the answer is yes.
You don't just stop every black person you see on the Street.
CUPP: Right, so you want law enforcement officials to spend equal time outside of Zabar's on the upper west side, stopping white people because that's a great use of law enforcement's time and resource.
HILL: You just made a great point, S.E., except that's not what I said. I don't think they should go to random places. I think they should go to high-crime neighborhoods but actually...
HILL: ...but have reasonable suspicion and/or probable cause. Don't -- being black and outside is not probable cause. It's not reasonable suspicion.
And that's what the police are using. And they're finding guns .02 percent of the time. And if you look at these so-called crime drops (ph), and I wish I could have said that to my -- my friend in the -- from Virginia in the last segment, if you look at these crime stops (ph), there are bigger crime stops (ph) and place where don't have stop and frisk.
Fifty-nine percent in Los Angeles, 49 percent in New Orleans -- we could look at Dallas and see 46 percent. The numbers are dropping where we don't have stop and frisk.
So we can't pretend that crimes...
CUPP: That's in Chicago.
HILL: ...yes, but -- but if you look at Chicago, there are a variety of factors including stream of guns, lack of employment. I mean, there are a range of structural factors that lead to Chicago.
Chicago's not existing because of a lack of stop and frisk. The fact of the matter is we need sensible policing. We need strong community police relationships.
And you don't have them if every person in the neighborhood is afraid of the police because they're getting stopped and frisked everyday.
MORGAN: OK, I need to stop you there. But you will not be frisked while the (ph) break. We're going to come back and talk about Oprah Winfrey and race.
Has she sat the cat among the pigeons here? I think she may have done.
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O'BRIEN: Oprah was shopping in Switzerland. A Swiss clerk refused to show her a $38,000 purse because she didn't think Oprah could afford it.
Yes, to prove a point, Oprah bought Switzerland.
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MORGAN: Conan O'Brien having fun with Oprah and that $38,000 bag, said a clerk in the store in Switzerland refused to show it to her. But now, she's trying to diffuse all controversy.
Back breaking the news, Marc Lamont Hill and S.E. Cupp.
So I think we should play video (ph) first (ph), play what Oprah said on the red carpet. Well, she seem to be back-tracking a bit.
Watch what she said here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WINFREY: I think that incident in Switzerland was just an incident in Switzerland. I'm really sorry that it got blown up.
I purposely did not mention the name of the store. It's not an indictment against the country or even that store.
It just was, you know, one person who didn't want to offer me the opportunity to see the bag so no apologies necessary from the country of Switzerland.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Marc Lamont Hill, I mean, obviously, Oprah's out there promoting this new movie, "The Butler" that she's in (ph). Probably the (ph) move (ph), you haven't seen it yet. But some argument that she may be putting out these stories to try, engender publicity.
I don't think that's how Oprah would operate. But what do you think of this particular incident where the Swiss are pretty upset about it?
HILL: Well, they're upset because it's Oprah. You know, surely, racism exists in Switzerland. And I'm sure the country doesn't apologize for every reported case.
Oprah is a big star. And she made a big stink, whether intentionally or not. And so they're responding to it. But I don't think that Oprah made the story up.
I don't think she's being cynical. I don't know a black person who hasn't had the experience that Oprah had. I've had that experience multiple times attempting to shop in stores where they won't show me an item because they don't think I can't afford it.
And one time, a store even said to me, look, I'm not going to get the suit for you because you can't afford it anyway. You're not going to buy it. So what's the point? I don't want to waste both of our time. It happens. And I think Oprah just responded to it. But Oprah also is a peacemaker.
She wants to make people feel comfortable. And she didn't want to alienate a large part of her fan base, which is right. And I think that's just her approach.
CUPP: Too late. She's a little too late. I mean, Oprah has such a massive level of influence in this country. I -- I have nowhere near the level of influence.
But I know if I go on Twitter and I complain about something, then people are going to notice. She went on national television and injected what she saw as racism into a motivation for what happened in Switzerland.
I wasn't there. I don't know what happened. But I think that was a pretty significant heavy charge to levee and a little reckless on her part. Of course, it was going to spark a national debate.
Of course, it was going to get Switzerland's attention. It's Oprah against some lonely anonymous Swiss shop keeper. I thought that was really throwing some of her influence and power around recklessly.
HILL: I'm -- I'm amazed that you feel more sorry for the reckless anonymous potentially racist shopkeeper in Switzerland than the person...
CUPP: Potentially racist? You weren't there either, Marc. Just because...
HILL: Well, that's why -- that's why I said potentially.
CUPP: ...you -- you don't know.
HILL: That's why I said potentially. It's potentially racist because Oprah said it was. It may not have been. It's potentially.
But I have no reason to doubt Oprah. Oprah is not exactly a race baiter. This isn't like someone who, you know, who deals in race everyday on the public stage who decides to tell a story.
Oprah goes out of her way to avoid a race talk. So if Oprah says it was racist...
CUPP: Oh, it might be true.
HILL: I'm -- I'm inclined to agree with her.
CUPP: So are a lot of people. That's the problem. I think she should be very careful about the kind of claims that she makes. HILL: So -- so -- so if she experienced something and felt that it was race-based, what should she do instead of talking about it in public? What should she have done?
CUPP: Well, clearly, she didn't want to talk about it in public because she's backtracking now. She really wanted to have a debate about it.
She'd be debating it. She's not.
HILL: No, but the -- but the question -- but S.E., the question was what should she have done differently? What should she have done instead of talking about it?
CUPP: Well, no one asked her to talk about it. She brought it up as an example of how she's been treated in...
CUPP: ...was she thought was a racist (ph) way (ph)...
HILL: Right, she was asked. S.E., she was asked about it. She was asked have you had to deal with racism. She said yes, she...
CUPP: And she chose to bring that incident up. She didn't have to. She brought it up. And now, she doesn't want to have the conversation.
HILL: Yes, of course. Yes, absolutely. Yes, she absolutely had a right to remain silent. But instead...
CUPP: I think that's really reckless.
HILL: But instead, she -- she had a right to remain silent. But instead, she courageously talked about an incident. Now, I wish...
CUPP: And is now backtracking it. She should go all out and have that conversation, Marc.
HILL: So you -- OK, then here's what we'll do, S.E. We'll collectively encourage Oprah to talk about race more and start with this incident in greater detail.
Would that satisfy you?
CUPP: Absolutely, she's -- she's -- she's welcome to. I -- I think she knows, though, just how far her reach and her influence is, which is why she's now backtracking that. HILL: No, I think -- I -- I...
MORGAN: OK, OK. I'm going to just (ph) end (ph) there. I personally am coming down with Oprah here. I'm on her side on this. Well, I think that we could...
CUPP: It's a smart move.
HILL: Good choice.
MORGAN: ...what we can all agree -- what we can all agree on, though, surely, is that the big loser here is the store, which could have made...
MORGAN: ...the easiest sale of a 38-grand bag in the history of bag sales. Do we all agree?
HILL: That's true.
CUPP: And now defending itself against charges of racism from Oprah.
HILL: Well, she never mentioned the store. If she really wasn't crushed, then she could have said the name of the store, that it wouldn't exist anymore.
CUPP: They found out who was, Marc. They found the store.
HILL: But she didn't have -- she deliberately didn't do it. That's all I'm saying.
MORGAN: OK, we're going to leave it there. Well, I actually like your pairing. It's -- it's pretty animated. I mean, slow start, warmed up and then it wow.
Let's get you two back again soon. Thanks for joining me.
CUPP: We've known each other a long time.
HILL: Long time, old friends.
MORGAN: No, I can tell. A lot of friction there. Won't ask too many questions. Marc Lamont Hill, S.E. Cupp, thank you, both, for joining me.
Coming next, the sinkhole survivor, how (ph) she (ph) felt after that. If you think the images are incredible from Florida, wait until you hear one mother's story of how she got out alive.
She joins me next along with the man many consider a hero for saving lives.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(UNKNOWN): Where is the patient located at at Summer Bay?
(UNKNOWN): It's -- it's not a patient. We have a building that's potentially collapsing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: That's a 911 call from the scene (ph) event (ph) -- devastating sinkhole in Florida. That's one part of a resort near Walt Disney World.
It formed under two buildings, both of which have been destroyed. Maggie Ghamry and her three-year-old son, Zayden (ph) when one of the buildings collapsed.
And Maggie joins me now along with her son. Also with me is Richard Shanley, the resort security guard, who's being held by many as a hero.
Maggie, thank you for joining me. I can see that your little one isn't overly keen to be appearing (ph) in my show tonight.
MAGGIE GHAMRY: That's correct. He's like -- he likes to be independent like his mom.
MORGAN: I would let -- let him run around, don't worry about it. And Maggie, tell me what it's like to be in the middle of a sinkhole when it goes off like (ph) that (ph)?
Is it absolutely terrifying?
GHAMRY: Absolutely terrifying, absolutely surreal. The thought that goes through your mind are just that of everything unknown.
There is no way to be prepared for a sinkhole experience or having a building collapsing around you in any type of situation. It's something I never imagined I would experience.
MORGAN: And how important was the man standing to your left, Richard Shanley who has emerged as one of the great heroes of what happened?
GHAMRY: He's absolutely a hero. I -- I watched him single- handedly make his way up into every room up and down the stairs. We were across the street videotaping as those events occurred, and we (ph) watched him as he accounted for everybody in the room -- absolutely is a hero.
I'm very, very thankful for him.
MORGAN: And Richard, you, yourself, I mean, it was obviously a devastating thing to happen. How did you keep so calm and -- and help so many people? RICHARD SHANLEY: I just let instinct take over. I had to get the guest out first. They were my top priority. I cared about my safety but not as much as my guests.
They were here on vacation. They didn't expect this. Nobody could face what was to come, you know, at that time. And you do what you have to do.
You know, they're your first priority. This property is your priority. You take care of it and do what you have to do.
MORGAN: I mean, you say you do what you have to do. But many, I mean, people were scrambling around. It was incredibly dangerous there.
And you really went beyond the call of duty. Did you feel at the time that you, yourself may not get out of this alive?
SHANLEY: No, sir, I didn't think about that. Like -- like I said, my first image of the building was yes, it's coming down. But I also -- the first priority was to make sure all the guests were out, going room-to-room, really (ph) waking people up from a dead sleep was not something I would not have expected to do.
I had people asking me if they were being evicted from the building. I said no, your building is collapsing. We need to get while we can and get out.
They just were not expecting this at all. And it was an unexpected turn of events that took place. If I had to do it all over again, I would do it.
It was just instinct took over and you -- you act first and think later.
MORGAN: Well, good for you.
And Maggie, I'm so delighted that you and your family were able to get away alive. And you're able to talk to me tonight. Thank you for joining me.
And to Richard, thank you for your heroism on what was a -- a very dramatic and very dangerous evening. And a lot of people like (ph) Maggie owe you a great gratitude.
And -- and we all thank you from here as well. Thank you, both, for joining me.
GHAMRY: Absolutely. Thank you, Piers.
SHANLEY: Thank you very kindly.
MORGAN: Coming next, "The Daily Show" which is a challenge to me. We'll, you (ph) know (ph), you're about to find out why you owe me $10,000 John (ph) Oliver (ph).
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OLIVER: OK, this is important. I would like to personally offer $10,000 in reward to anyone who can bring me footage of Piers Morgan falling off that Segway.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Dr. Sanjay Gupta's special on marijuana was a huge success on Sunday night -- more than 1.2 million people tuned in to watch. And among the viewers was "The Daily Show's" John Oliver, currently standing in for Jon Stewart.
We talked about Sanjay's pot special last night. But it seemed he was far (ph) more interested in another subject -- me and a certain piece of a (ph) video. Watch this.
OLIVER: I -- I have to give CNN credit where it's due. Sanjay Gupta cupped (ph) to his era, the weed special answered the most pressing questions about the legitimate medical uses of marijuana and they also answered the question that absolutely no one has been asking.
What's Piers Morgan like when he's high?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: I'll make a shocking revelation here. I've tried cannabis when I was a younger lad. And I've also had to have vicodin when I broke some ribs falling off embarrassingly a Segway in Santa Monica.
And I can tell you that it was the Vicodin which I was prescribed by my doctor, which gave me a massively higher high than the cannabis ever did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
OLIVER: OK, this is important. I would like to personally offer $10,000 in reward to anyone who can bring me footage of Piers Morgan falling off that Segway. I mean it. Neither Vicodin nor marijuana nor the purest ecstasy could bring anyone as much joy as that videotape could.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Well, you mock all you want, Mr. Oliver, my fellow Brit. Your punch line did carry with it a bona fide offer to anyone you said you can produce to video of me falling off a Segway and by the way, breaking five ribs, collapsing a lung and nearly expiring from life.
Well, guess what, John, I have the video. It's real and it's right here. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) (UNKNOWN): Sit back. Sit backwards. Sit back.
(UNKNOWN): Stand (ph) up...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Satisfied, John? I hope you are, because that was as painful as it looked. But it's now it's time for you to suffer pain -- $10,000 worth of pain, in fact.
I assume the money will be delivered by the end of business day tomorrow. If not, I'll make sure that Mr. Stewart -- now, he's back from his lengthy movie-making sabbatical, we'll take it out of your measly little salary.
That's all for us tonight. Anderson Cooper starts right now.