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Aired August 14, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, Hannah Anderson`s kidnap confessions. Scared all the time, praying for rescue, wishing she could have saved her mother and brother.
And Molly Young`s dad says his daughter did not kill herself.
MOLLY YOUNG`S DAD: I`m going to get all the facts so that I can prove what`s going on here.
PINSKY: So, why do all signs point to suicide? He`s here to tell us why that`s just not possible.
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening.
My co-host is Samantha Schacher, host of "Pop Trigger" on the Young Turks Network.
Coming up, the kidnapped teen who was rescued this weekend speaks about her ordeal online.
But, first, we have some breaking news about the case. KGTV in San Diego reports tonight that search warrants they have obtained reveal that Hannah Anderson`s mother was, in fact, tortured before she was killed. A crowbar was found next to her body, according to the documents. The sister of suspect James Lee DiMaggio had made multiple, unusually large volumes of calls to DiMaggio`s phone on the day of the crime.
Here now, investigative reporter Rita Cosby with the latest.
Rita, what have you got?
RITA COSBY, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER (via telephone): Well, Dr. Drew, newly released search warrant documents that we`ve obtained in Hannah Anderson/James DiMaggio case show a stunning and paint a really horrific scene. These show how the very obsessed 40-year-old man was with his best friend`s 16-year-old daughter, whom he kidnapped on August 4th.
Now, Hannah herself wrote online that he told her that he had feelings for her. And the day that he abducted her, phone records show that they called each other approximately 13 times before both their phones were turned off in the afternoon. Hannah and also Hannah`s mother and her 8- year-old brother were killed by this monster. Their bodies, remember, were found in his burning home. And now, we`re learning that DiMaggio gave the mother a brutal death.
When cops arrived on the scene, these documents show that they really arrived to a very terrible scene. They saw feet popping out of a tarp in the garage. Hannah`s mother was laying face down. She was dead. And near her body, as you mentioned, was a crowbar and lots of blood next to her head.
James DiMaggio was killed during an FBI rescue of Hannah. He was shot, we`re learning, multiple times in his chest, one time to the side of his head. And now some of these friends are coming out and saying that he just never got over the emotional and physical abuse he endured as a child.
Hannah herself online is saying he got what he deserved -- Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Rita, thank you for that report. It is very disturbing to hear all the details. It`s rough.
SAMANTA SCHACHER, CO-HOST: Horrific.
PINSKY: Just 48 hours after Hannah was rescued, she`s talking about the murders of her mom and brother. She went on a social media site, Ask.fm, to talk about her ordeal. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY WIAN, CNN: After going through a life-changing ordeal, she took to social media and discussed the events with her peers.
(voice-over): "Are you glad he`s dead?" "Absolutely."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He fired one round, and when he fired the second round, according to Hannah`s account, he was shot by members of the hostage rescue team.
WIAN: "Did you want to go with DiMaggio?" She replied, "No, not at all."
"Why didn`t you run"? "He would have killed me."
REPORTER: Detectives say Hannah had no idea her mother and brother were found dead in the ashes of DiMaggio`s house.
WIAN: "How did he separate you from your mother and brother?" "He tied you up in the garage."
"How did he keep the fire a secret?" "He had it set where it would catch on fire at a certain time."
BRETT ANDERSON, HANNAH`S FATHER: As for my daughter, the healing process will be slow. She has been through a tremendous, horrific ordeal.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Teenagers live their lives online. They`re extroverts. They are used to texting and tweeting everything going on in their life. She is in a state of trauma, and so, she is not thinking.
PINSKY: Joining to discuss, attorney Mark Eiglarsh from speaktomark.com. Crystal Wright, who continues to cheat on me with Mr. Anderson Cooper, but she is from conservativeblackchick.com. We`re going to have a little chat about that, my dear.
Judge Karen Mills Francis, host of "Supreme Justice with Judge Karen." And Brian Copeland, talk show host on KGO Radio in San Francisco, author of "Not a Genuine Black Man."
Samantha, first off, tell us, what is Ask.fm? Why does she end up there?
SCHACHER: OK. Well, Ask is a social media site. And once you set up a profile, other users, followers, your peers can then ask you questions anonymously. And normally, you see questions that are lighthearted, like what`s your favorite TV series? But because you`re anonymous, I mean, anything goes. You can see these questions become controversial, sexual, abusive, sometimes they lend to bullying. It can get in dark places.
PINSKY: Crystal, I see you shaking your head already. So I`m going to go to you. But you know, I asked my daughter -- I`ve got 20-year-old triplets. I asked my daughter if she had heard of this and she was not. She had never heard of it, she thought it was sort of bizarre.
Then she went on to talk about some site she visited when she was 13. I was like, what, 13? I thought we were on top of all this stuff.
CRYSTAL WRIGHT, CONSERVATIVEBLACKCHICK.COM: Yikes!
PINSKY: Right. But the point being is that there are teenage, age- specific sort of sites they find their way to and this seems to be one of those sites.
SCHACHER: It`s popular.
WRIGHT: Yes, well, you know, Twitter`s popular, Facebook is popular, but this goes back to what I said from the very beginning, I don`t think Hannah`s parents were too with it.
Two things that trouble me: she couldn`t wait to jump on social media to talk about this. And I understand there`s psychology and purging your experience.
Another thing that is a little troubling is the day that her mom is bludgeoned to death, there`s all these -- there`s numerous phone calls between her and DiMaggio? Their cells are turned off.
I`m going to say this, and I know I`m going to get jumped on. I almost am beginning to think that she was into this, somehow got seduced into -- you know, we know Uncle Jim said "I love you" and confessed the feelings before he took her away. I almost wonder if there was a sexual relationship.
SCHACHER: No way.
PINSKY: Let me interrupt.
PINSKY: We`re going to get to that kind of thing --
BRIAN COPELAND, RADIO HOST: Are you saying she was involved, Crystal?
COPELAND: I was going to say, are you implying that she was -- you think she might have been involved?
WRIGHT: I`m not implying. I think I was clear what I said, Brian. I said that I think that all along, that there was a seduction going on, a slow seduction, but I wonder now if Hannah was, you know, willing, you know, somehow participating and had knowledge of what DiMaggio was going to do.
You don`t find it troubling that 13 phone calls the day between the two of them?
COPELAND: So, I`m trying -- you say you`re very clear. I don`t think you`re very clear at all.
WRIGHT: Well, I think I was, but --
COPELAND: Are you saying that she was -- well, clarify it for me.
COPELAND: Are you saying you think she was involved?
WRIGHT: Yes, I do.
COPELAND: You do think she was involved?
WRIGHT: It appears to be there was some --
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: No, hold on. Drew --
PINSKY: I know, Mark, I`ll go to you. I`ll go to Karen also. But let me just sort of frame it also. Let`s say he did have some sort of seductive influence over her. She`s still being victimized by guy!
WRIGHT: Right. It`s a mind control. I agree with you, but let`s not talk around it. I mean, let`s talk about --
PINSKY: All right, Mark, go.
COPELAND: There is one thing.
JUDGE KAREN MILLS-FRANCIS, TV`S JUDGE KAREN: I totally disagree.
PINSKY: One at a time.
MILLS-FRANCIS: She was a victim at all.
EIGLARSH: Extraordinarily troubled.
PINSKY: I gave the floor to Mark. We have crazy delays, talks upon each other, but, Mark, go ahead.
EIGLARSH: I`m extraordinarily troubled by what Crystal just said. She`s entitled to her opinion. I love the First Amendment.
But I thoroughly find it irresponsible to come out and suggest what she did. She doesn`t have the expertise, she doesn`t have the evidence --
WRIGHT: Oh, I`m not an expert, OK.
EIGLARSH: I have the same stuff she has and I`m really troubled, Crystal, by what you just --
WRIGHT: Well, I`m sorry you`re troubled when I`ve said all along that DiMaggio had mind control over her. So, you know, we don`t need name- calling.
EIGLARSH: No, that we agree, Crystal. On that, I agree.
WRIGHT: You can do your argument without disparaging me. Come on, Mark.
EIGLARSH: On that I agree, but to suggest that somehow --
COPELAND: Well, don`t get off the (INAUDIBLE). Don`t play the victim. You`re the one who made the statement.
WRIGHT: Whatever, Brian.
EIGLARSH: That somehow she was involved with this tragic, abhorrent act?
WRIGHT: She could have been if she was controlled by this man mentally. What do you mean?
COPELAND: Well, if I can say something --
PINSKY: Point taken. Brian, finish what you want to say, then I want to read you other things she said on social media.
Go ahead, Brian.
COPELAND: I will tell you that the one thing that stuck out in terms of what you said on social media is she was asked by someone whether or not she was raped and she said I can`t talk about that. So, I was curious, and I want to ask, Mark, maybe you know this. If she was not raped, would law enforcement or D.A. or prosecutor or anybody on that side have told her that she can`t talk about it? In other words, the fact that she said I can`t talk about it tells me that she was.
EIGLARSH: Yes, I had the same response, Brian. Again, we`re speculating. And I can`t get into the mind of this traumatized 16-year-old like some other people feel that they can, but I actually think that there`s really only one inference that could be drawn from that.
PINSKY: Karen, I`m going to give you a chance in a second to ring. I want to read you some of what she put online. She went by hannahbanana722. There are a couple of things asked of her.
"How did he separate you from your mom and brother?" She said, "He tied them up in the garage. I`m done asking questions, so don`t bother asking."
And then, "Did he rape you?" That`s one Brian is referring to. She said, "I`m not allowed to talk about it so don`t ask questions about it. Thank you."
Karen, why do you think she was so shut -- I guess she`s been advised to shut these things down -- is she being investigated in some way? What kind of investigation is under way here?
MILLS FRANCIS: You know what, I wouldn`t be surprised if she were being investigated, and I`m really kind of surprised that Mark -- because I`ve known Mark a long time -- listen, we don`t know what went on between these two people.
MILLS-FRANCIS: I actually read the search warrant today. The officer whose sworn affidavit for the search warrant specifically said there are items that we believe we will find in his house that will help explain the relationship between DiMaggio and Hannah Anderson. Her dental retainer was found at his house.
WRIGHT: There you go.
MILLS-FRANCIS: There were statements from her friends that he picked her up several times from school and they went on day trips to Hollywood and to Malibu.
WRIGHT: Thank you.
MILLS-FRANCIS: So, I`m not going to be so fast to buy that she was a victim here. History is replete with cases of young girls --
WRIGHT: Thank you.
MILLS-FRANCIS: -- remember Caril Fugate, I don`t know if you`re old enough to remember that, that`s the case from 1996 --
COPELAND: Yes, Charles Starkweather.
MILLS-FRANCIS: -- where the girl had everything to do with the death of her sister and her parents.
WRIGHT: Patty Hearst.
MILLS-FRANCIS: So, I`m not going to sit back and say I absolutely believe this 16-year-old girl. I`m not going to buy it.
PINSKY: All right. Well, it leaves interesting grist for conversation. I don`t want -- if she is as much of a victim as I believe her to be, I don`t want her to be re-victimized by our conversation. So, let`s be clear --
COPELAND: That`s right.
PINSKY: So, we`re just discussing it, we`re trying to get our head around before there is actual fact out there and we will bring it on you when we get it.
Thank you, panel.
Next, what does the behavior bureau think about the fact that Hannah chose to go online and talk about this ordeal?
And later, coroners decided this was suicide, her father says murder. Molly Young`s dad is here to tell us why, after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: As for my daughter, the healing process will be slow. She has been through a tremendous, horrific ordeal. I am very proud of her and I love her very much.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It became very clear to us, very clear, that she is a victim in every sense of the word in this horrific crime.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Welcome back. Time for behavior bureau. My co-host, Samantha Schacher.
Hannah Anderson, the 16-year-old who was rescued on Saturday, is now revealing details about her ordeal. What do her comments say about how she is coping? This is a perfect conversation for the behavior bureau.
Joining us, clinical and forensic psychologist Cheryl Arutt, attorney and Sirius XM Radio host Jenny Hutt, psychotherapist Tiffanie Davis Henry, and psychotherapist Wendy Walsh, author of "30-Day Love Detox."
First of all, show of hands. Who is surprised that Hannah had been posting comments on social media so soon after a traumatic experience? Show of hands.
None of us are surprised. That`s very interesting.
WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Nope.
PINSKY: Oh, Cheryl, you are surprised.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A little.
PINSKY: Why are you surprised?
CHERYL ARUTT, CLINICAL AND FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: I`m a little bit surprised that whoever is the adult or adults who are helping her are really allowing it. I`m not surprised that she wants to do it, but I think she`s probably in such a state right now that whatever she does, she may look back later and go, ooh, I wish I had kind of given myself some room.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I agree.
PINSKY: Yes, Jenny.
JENNY HUTT, RADIO HOST: Guys, clearly there were boundaries issues within this household. Haven`t we already established that? With that close relationship that family had with Uncle Jim?
So, who could be surprised that she`s taking to the Internet and doing what she wants? And BTW, she`s a 16-year-old girl. That`s what kids do today. They vent online. They get it all out online, they throw it up online and throw it out and think that that then ends the trauma.
Of course it doesn`t, but let her do what she`s got to do. She`s 16. It`s unthinkable what she`s been through.
PINSKY: Yes, and while I agree with Jenny.
Wendy, I think there`s a little something more going on here. I think in some sense, the online identity is so strong in young people today that it`s literally almost her going online like that with her peers -- she selected a site that really is significant, you know, really attracts the younger audiences, the younger folks. It`s like saying, hey, I`m here, I`m alive, I`m still here.
PINSKY: It`s a way of -- go ahead. What do you think?
WALSH: Dr. Drew, I had this discussion today with my 15-year-old daughter, and she and I had actually visited that site together one time. And she said, I said, you know, if I was murdered, would you be online talking to your friends? She goes, yes, because then I`d know people cared. I could reach out and there would be people on there.
And she`s been isolated, she`s been alone. She`s grieving the loss of her psychological and physical lifeline, her mother and her brother. And so, to reach out -- I totally understand the psychological dynamics -- to reach out and receive care and contact with people, and also being able to control it. She`s very angry at us in the media.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.
WALSH: She`s very angry at our speculations, and to be able to have this control in some ways is healing for her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.
SCHACHER: I`m so happy you said that, Wendy, because there is so much speculation and rumors. And this is a way for her to let people know that, listen, I was not going with him by choice, I was not in a relationship by him. It was able for her to put these rumors to rest.
PINSKY: Tiffanie, I see nodding along with you. What are your thoughts?
TIFFANIE DAVIS HENRY, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, I think she felt she needed to go online to defend herself because of some of the negative things that have been said and the speculations.
The problem that I have with it, of course, is that everybody isn`t nice. Everybody doesn`t say the nice, helpful, nurturing, warm things. Some people did, but there are also some very cruel people out there, and what really pissed me off when I read a lot of these things is that I felt like they were coming from adults. Like, some of the more cruel, hurtful comments were coming from people that have known better and should have never made this girl or revictimized her.
HUTT: Guys, but here`s the thing --
PINSKY: Let me show you guys. Hang on, Jenny.
Let me show you guys a full screen. If you have the one where she ends her account, where she closes it out because she starts getting a lot of bad stuff, it`s actually shows some insight that a 16-year-old has about what it`s like to sort of survive online that I thought was interesting as well.
Can you guys put that up there? Do we have that yet? Well -- here it comes.
ARUTT: Can I say something?
PINSKY: Yes, what it was -- there it is. Some would suggest she delete her media accounts because people are heartless and rude, that was in the quote. And she said she would and then she did. Some time midmorning after the Ask.fm account then vanished.
The question is, though, I guess, Cheryl, are we persuading you that this might not have been such a bad thing for her?
ARUTT: Well, I agree this is what kids this age do and the reaching out and wanting to set the record straight and wanting to get support. All that stuff I completely agree with, but the issue that Tiffanie began talking about, people are not nice not just because of the anonymity of the Internet, but there`s also something very important. When somebody goes through a trauma, a really big trauma, everybody else has a defense mechanism wanting to tell themselves, this is why this couldn`t have happened to me or my sister or my friend.
People start to look for something about her that she did or she didn`t do that caused this to happen to her, and that`s where a lot of the victim blaming comes from.
PINSKY: That is a really powerful, powerful point. Jenny, go ahead.
HUTT: Look, here`s the thing, though. The 16-year-old kids, and especially a girl like Hannah who we know had posted pictures prior, had put herself on the internet prior, they`re aware that people are nasty on the Internet. So, though I`ll agree with you, Cheryl, that yes, trauma, it kicks up something in people, and sure, there`s that thing that happens, but I think this isn`t her first rodeo in terms of how people can be online.
Kids are notoriously nasty. Adults are notoriously nasty, and if you`re an Internet user in that way, it`s not unexpected that someone might be --
HENRY: But it doesn`t make it hurt less.
PINSKY: Right. And I want to go to Tiffanie. You seem to have been misfired by some --
PINSKY: Tiffanie, go ahead -- Tiffanie.
HENRY: I think it`s really interesting that the family comes on television and says, please give us a moment to really regroup and give us our privacy, but then at the same time, you go online or you do the media interviews, you accept those interviews, you say these things publicly. If you want your privacy, then you have to remain private.
PINSKY: But again, that was the dad. That wasn`t Hannah saying that. She was advised not to talk about certain things.
I have to go, panel. We have more on her coming up! Hang on, I`ve got more coming! Relax, guys!
If you have a question for the behavior bureau, go ahead, tweet us. My behavior -- there we go. @DrDrewHLN, #behaviorbureau.
And later, the mysterious death of Molly Young. It was ruled a suicide, but her family believes she was murdered. Back in a moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Suspect James Lee DiMaggio was shot and killed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hannah is safe, and that was the best outcome that we were hoping for.
ANDERSON: He and I had a very close relationship over the years. I can`t fathom what happened in Jim`s head, what happened. He obviously just lost it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with the behavior bureau and my co-host, Samantha Schacher. Hannah Anderson, that was the dad was just saying was really at the center of this story. She was rescued on Saturday. Two days later.
She then fielded hundreds of questions online about her kidnapping. And in one post, she was asked, "Why didn`t you tell your parents he creeped you out?" Her response? As you heard the dad saying there, in part, "He was my dad`s best friend. I didn`t want to ruin anything between them."
Let`s go around the panel here, starting with Wendy.
Dad`s best friend, Wendy. Does that trouble you?
WALSH: It really troubles me. But this is how kids think, and this is why we have to encourage our kids to have open communication with us, even if it`s somebody close. I`ve mentioned this before. Statistics show that one-third of American girls are abused, either sexually, emotionally or physically. And generally, that abuse comes at the hand of someone they love.
So, telling on that person they love can disrupt all kinds of relationships in the circle. So, it`s really important that we teach our kids that it`s OK to talk about this.
PINSKY: Yes. I think, Jenny, I think Wendy makes an important point, that it is tough to come forward sometimes when so many relationships are going to be disrupted. But still, father`s best friend -- are you creeped out by that?
HUTT: The whole thing is creepy, Dr. Drew, but another thing, is that it`s far easier to have the awful, awful conversation about the bad things that can happen even with someone you trust, potentially, rather than the awful, awful, awful stuff that then happens because we don`t have that tough-to-have conversation. You`ve got to talk to your kids.
PINSKY: You`re right, you`re right.
HUTT: We must talk to our teens and our little kids! Got to!
PINSKY: Tiffanie, your response.
HENRY: Well, I think Jenny is absolutely right. It`s not enough to just talk to our kids, but encourage them to talk to us, and that`s where the breakdown generally is, is letting them know that it`s OK to talk to us, even if you think I`m going to be mad, even if you think that this is my best friend or your uncle or whomever.
I don`t care who it is --
HENRY: -- you tell me and I will deal with it. But kids are like this. They don`t want to upset the apple cart. So, I understand it.
PINSKY: Or they feel responsible for what`s happening.
HENRY: For sure.
PINSKY: Feel like they caused it.
HENRY: For sure.
PINSKY: But, Cheryl, I`m asking you a subtler thing here, which is, if that were my best friend, I`d really be questioning what was wrong with me, that my judgment was off --
ARUTT: I`m sure he is.
PINSKY: Or that I thought that guy fitted with me as a good friend. What do you think he`s experiencing? What does it say about him? Again, not to re-victimize this guy. He lost important people in his life. I`m not interested in that. I`m interested in understanding. Cheryl?
WALSH: I`m sure he is.
ARUTT: Well, Dr. Drew, he just seems to be in complete shock, like what happened? This is not the guy I knew for all these years.
And I know that he`s really stunned. I think that the other women were talking about how the daughter felt like she needed to protect him and protect his feelings, and I don`t know what that dynamic is there within the family or how parentified she might have been.
ARUTT: But the other parent I want to get back to is this grooming process, that whatever she felt or her vulnerabilities of feeling like she has to take care of everybody, it`s also very likely that he played on that in a very subtle and building kind of way, like ooh, you wouldn`t want to upset your family. You`ll keep this just between us kind of thing.
PINSKY: Yes, great point, great point.
ARUTT: He may have turned up the heat on that.
WALSH: So, you`re special. You`re special, you`re more mature.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.
SCHACHER: The father wasn`t the only one, though, that -- I mean, he duped a lot of people.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.
SCHACHER: Family members, ex-wife, friends. Everybody was shocked. So, I don`t think it was just the father.
I wish that he did not, and the mother, not allow for her to go on these overnight trips. I think that was the biggest red flag. That`s the weird part.
PINSKY: Yes, weird.
Wendy, I see you waving. Go ahead.
WALSH: Yes, because I mean, there`s something, there`s a big elephant in the living room here, Dr. Drew. That is, this guy had a really traumatic past. I mean, he did these events when he turned into a nut-job and went wacko on the anniversary of when his own father had committed suicide. When he was young, a teenager, his own son took a 16-year-old daughter and took her captive. So --
PINSKY: His own father, yes.
WALSH: -- do these people not know this about our friends? Do we not ask questions about our friends` lives? What kind of friendship is it if you don`t talk about --
PINSKY: We can`t judge, Wendy. We can`t judge people anymore! We can`t judge. No judging in our society.
Listen, you don`t have to judge, but you can assess. You can kind of look at people --
PINSKY: -- and you can know something. Jenny, you agree with me?
HUTT: I do agree, and to that point exactly. Crystal earlier had mentioned that maybe Hannah was complicit in this whole thing. And I`ve got to say, I think a kid like that who`s been groomed for that many years in this way can`t be complicit. Ultimately --
WALSH: That`s not a good word.
HUTT: Regardless of what went on and the phone call and everything --
HENRY: But because of the grooming, even if she was complicit, it doesn`t make it her fault.
HENRY: It doesn`t mean she was responsible for anything that happened. He was the adult in the situation and he`s been doing it for a very long period of time. And he -- you know what? I agree with Hannah, he deserved exactly what he got.
PINSKY: And there may have been a Stockholm syndrome on top of that. He may have been really threatening her with God knows what for who knows how long. There is more to be revealed in this story. I hope we one day come to understand all the complexities. Thank you, panel.
Next, a year after his daughter`s death, a grieving`s father relentless pursuit of justice. Our panel has been reconsidering this case. Is it suicide? Is it murder? There`s a lot of very suspicious details that we`re going to get into with the panel and with the victim`s father, after this.
VINNIE POLITAN, HLN ANCHOR: Coming up top of the hour on "HLN After Dark," "Real Housewives of New Jersey" stars, Teresa and Joe Giudice.
RYAN SMITH, HLN ANCHOR: Giudice. Yes.
POLITAN: Giudice. They say it different all the time.
SMITH: I know.
POLITAN: They`re in court today, federal court, facing 50 years in prison.
SMITH: Yes. And they pled not guilty, but you know what the question we have tonight, has "The Real Housewives" ruined Teresa`s life? So, we`ve got our in-studio jury ready to render a verdict.
POLITAN: We`ve got "Real Housewives" producers and another start from the show, another reality star, tonight "After Dark."
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Samantha Schacher, and we turn now to the death of Molly Young. Did the 21-year-old commit suicide or did her ex-boyfriend murder her? There are strong opinions on both sides. Samantha, you were regaling me with your research from last night where you were studying up on this case, and you actually persuaded me that there really are some big problems here.
SCHACHER: Yes. There`s a lot of suspicious behavior. There`s more suspicious details that, aside from the ones that we discussed last night, and the more I hear, the more I`m convinced that it`s not suicide.
PINSKY: We`ll get into it, but I want you to watch this first.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s my ex-girlfriend. I woke up and she`s covered in blood. She`s overdosed. She bled out through her nose.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The guy`s so calm on the 911 tape, you`d think he`s ordering a pizza or something.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A jury of six people found there was not enough evidence to determine the manner of Molly`s death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was Richie`s gun. Molly was shot in the top left side of her head and she`s right-handed.
PINSKY: That`s exactly where the gun went off was right here. So, Loni, I`m right-handed and I can get my hand up to my left temple. In her system was Ativan, Lorazepam, which is an anti-anxiety medication.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I truly don`t think that the prosecution can ethically move forward and put forth any type of criminal charges here.
PINSKY: Straight out to investigative journalist and WOR radio host, Rita Cosby. Rita, what do you got?
COSBY: Dr. Drew, the plot thickens tonight in this very strange case, because now we`re learning that Molly Young`s ex-boyfriend, again, police dispatcher, Richie Minton, has a history of boozing. He was pulled over for DUI a few months after Molly Young was found shot to death in his apartment with his gun.
The night she died -- and again, it`s still unclear if it was a suicide or a homicide -- she died from a single gunshot wound to the head approximately 4:45 to 5:30 in the morning. But Minton claims he was so drunk, he didn`t hear a loud gunshot, even though her body was found right next to his bed?
And witnesses are now saying that he was visibly drunk that night that she died. But when he called 911 to report her death, four hours later, around 9:00 a.m., he was unusually calm and very unemotional, as you heard on that 911 call. And he said he thought she overdosed. Now, he admits that he moved the body, he admits that he washed his hands and changed his clothes.
Now, when Minton was pulled over for DUI, he refused to take an alcohol test. He still refuses to talk to the cops anymore about Molly`s death and he has lawyered up big time -- Dr. Drew?
PINSKY: Thank you. Thank you, Rita. Now, Minton`s attorney declined a request for an interview. He said that Richie did or had spoken to police, adding quote, "Sadly, nothing will change the feelings of those who refuse to accept the facts that this lovely young lady took her own life," unquote. The lawyer asked that we not mistake lack of comment as evidence of wrongdoing.
My panel is back. Judge Karen, Mark Eiglarsh, Brian Copeland, Crystal Wright. Now, Richie Minton is an employee of the local police department. He was a dispatcher. He`s also the son of a longtime Franklin (ph) County sheriff`s deputy. Mark, do you think that has something to do with this case?
EIGLARSH: Well, it`s possible. Anything`s possible. But ultimately, I see no reason to question the fact that they don`t have proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Drew, you and I have spoken about that. Believing someone may be guilty is only the first step.
The next is establishing significant evidence in quality and quantity that reaches the highest burden under the law, believing that he`s 100 percent definitely without a shadow of a doubt probably guilty is not enough to bring a criminal case.
JUDGE KAREN MILLS-FRANCIS, TV`S JUDGE KAREN: Right, right.
PINSKY: Karen, you agree?
MILLS-FRANCIS: Absolutely. Of course, I`m agreeing with Mark. That is the highest burden of the law, proof beyond a reasonable doubt. But you also have a panel of six jurors that heard testimony in an inquisition and even those jurors couldn`t say, well, it was suicide or it was murder.
The state attorney has come out and said that they haven`t brought charges because there was actually a suicide note and several other little notes that this girl wrote to her family that were found at her grandmother`s house.
PINSKY: Now, hang on. Brian and Crystal, I want you to stand by because I`m going to give you a chance to talk to this woman`s father. Before I do, I want Samantha to tell me what she found last night before we go to break.
PINSKY: Sam, give me this, particularly the part about the delay in allowing the police into his room. That bothered me.
SCHACHER: Right. OK. So, the police were not allowed to come in and investigate until seven hours later. They actually had to go and get a -- why is it escaping me?
PINSKY: A search warrant.
SCHACHER: A search warrant to go in there. And also, there is some tampering with the telephones. There`s tampering with her text message. So, the text message of her saying she was going to kill herself is now in question. And those suicide notes were apparently from a year or two ago, and some people are claiming that they`re journal entries or from a time when she was depressed.
PINSKY: OK. Now, listen, Crystal and Brian, I want you to chew on that through the commercial break and the panel comes back with me and we will be joined by Molly Young`s father. He will share his details about his daughter`s relationship with the ex-boyfriend, what may have happened the night she died, and we`ll give you two a chance to ask him some questions. Please don`t go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m going to get all the facts so that I can prove what`s going on here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Even though we know in our hearts, we feel like what happened, we just want some answers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Samantha Schacher and Mark Eiglarsh, Brian Copeland, Crystal Wright, and Judge Karen. Molly Young, single shot to the head. Indications are that it was a suicide, but Molly`s dad says she would not have killed herself. He joins us now. Larry, first of all, you know, I don`t know what to say about this.
I mean, you never get over a loss like this, and I`m sure this isn`t easy to talk about, but we appreciate you being here, and we want to give you a chance to find justice. What do you know that authorities don`t?
VOICE OF LARRY YOUNG, MOLLY YOUNG`S FATHER: It`s not what I know that authorities don`t, it`s what the authorities aren`t telling people. And the first -- I want to correct two things that were said last night. There`s never been a grand jury. We would like to see a grand jury with a prosecutor that`s unbiased.
We also -- she was shot in the frontal lobe and inside the hair line at a downward angle, right above the left eyebrow, so the coroner and the undertaker, mortician pointed to where it was at, and it`s way higher on the head than what you`re pointing last night. It was in the scalp, according, even according to the coroner`s inquest documents. I read it again today. I wanted to make sure those two things were clarified first.
PINSKY: Was your daughter dealing with -- go ahead. Richie.
YOUNG: Richie Minton was not drunk enough to -- at 2:00 a.m., he left the bar and drove two women home and they say he drove perfectly all right. At their apartment, they said they never drank anything else in addition, and they stayed up until almost four o`clock texting people back and forth coherently. So, he wasn`t as drunk as he`s claiming.
PINSKY: And was your daughter dealing with any stressors prior to this catastrophe?
YOUNG: A year prior to this, in January of 2011, Molly -- actually, she found out in the fall of 2010 that she had a cancerous growth on her thyroid. And the majority of that journal was written when she found that out. She had an operation in January of 2011 and had that growth removed in Barnes Hospital in St. Louis.
After that, she started improving in her mental state all the way up to this. And I talked to her counselor that was counseling her during that real time of grief, because she thought she had terminal cancer is what she started thinking in her head. So, she`s writing this, most of this journal was written during that time. And so --
PINSKY: And now --
YOUNG: The counselor says she was not suicidal all the way to the end of 2011.
PINSKY: And I understand, you told my producer during your pre- interview, there was a really significant event that happened rather recently, is that right?
YOUNG: I don`t know what you`re referring to exact -- oh, you`re talking about Richie Minton took her for an abortion?
YOUNG: Yes. We think that happened three weeks -- we didn`t know about it until a month into the case. We think Richie Minton took her for an abortion about three weeks prior to this based on the document --
PINSKY: Hang on a second.
WRIGHT: Wow, wait a minute.
PINSKY: I want to give my panelists a chance to talk. Crystal, you`re shaking your head. Go ahead.
WRIGHT: Yes, yes. I mean, I just want to say that, I know this is really hard, and I admire you for coming out and talking about this. I mean, I guess my question, Larry, is do you think -- it sounds like Richie was planning to kill your daughter for, you know, I would say a long period of time. I mean, and the abortion?
Wow! And we know -- do you think that -- I mean, Violet, her best friend, said that Richie told her she`d be better off killing herself. What do you think? That this was planned for a long time?
YOUNG: On March 3rd of 2012, three weeks before this happened, Richie Minton posted a quote from the son of Sam on his Tumblr page and it`s still on there that says drops a lead will pour down upon her head until she`s dead.
WRIGHT: Wow. This is disturbing.
PINSKY: Larry, I`m going to actually talk to Violet. Crystal, Violet is up here next after Larry. And Larry, we appreciate you being here. We are going to continue to watch this case and we hope --
WRIGHT: So sad.
YOUNG: I want to clarify one other thing. Richie Minton has refused to cooperate with Illinois State police since this began. He`s never been interviewed. He`s refused to be interviewed all the way up until now.
PINSKY: Yes. That`s the part that really I find very troubling.
SCHACHER: That`s suspicious.
WRIGHT: Me, too.
PINSKY: Not only the lack of being interviewed, but this business of there being hours before the police -- the police had to get a search warrant, all this business. Thank you, Larry.
WRIGHT: And he closed her there.
PINSKY: Yes. Now, listen --
PINSKY: Crystal just referenced, I`ve got violet coming up and she says things don`t add up as well. She will join me. There she is. She`ll join me right after this break.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Samantha Schacher, and our panel. Karen, you wanted to react to something Larry said before I had to go to break -- Karen.
MILLS-FRANCIS: Yes. Well, I was just thinking that, you know, look at what we`re dealing with here with this girl. We know that she had attempted suicide before, according to the prosecutor. I don`t know if that was true or not. We got the suicide notes. Maybe they`re old, but they`re suicide notes.
We have suicide pages and pages of a journal where we`re talking about suicide. We have the fact that she`s on anti-depressants. Now, we hear that she may have had an abortion two or three weeks before this. She was dealing with cancer. I mean, this is just not a case of a normal, happy person that ended up dead. It looks like we are dealing with a girl who may have been suicidal.
WRIGHT: No. No.
PINSKY: Karen, I`m with you, and Mark wants to comment, too. But Mark, yes, Mark, but I believe with Karen. I mean, if it looks like a rose, smells like a rose, but every once in a while, somebody like Sam throws a wrench in this.
SCHACHER: Just because someone`s suicidal doesn`t mean that they can`t be murdered.
BRIAN COPELAND, AUTHOR, "NOT A GENUINE BLACK MAN": Here`s the other problem, is that if it was suicide, why is Mr. Minton behaving in the way that he is? His actions are not the actions of an innocent man.
WRIGHT: Exactly. And also, women tend to not --
MILLS-FRANCIS: What is he doing? He doesn`t have to talk to you guys. He doesn`t have to talk to the press. He`s given a statement to the police. He doesn`t have to --
COPELAND: No, he hasn`t! No, Mr. Young said he`s not given a statement to the police.
PINSKY: Mark, go ahead.
EIGLARSH: OK. So, what I was very eager to ask the father and what I`ll ask everyone out loud is, OK, so, the prosecutor`s office has thoroughly investigated this. They don`t find that they have sufficient proof beyond a reasonable doubt. They also have an obligation to exclude every reasonable hypothesis of innocence, which would be suicide as opposed to murder.
EIGLARSH: So, the question is, what is their motivation? Why aren`t they bringing charges if it`s not for insufficient evidence?
PINSKY: Right. That`s right.
PINSKY: Hang on. I`ve got Molly Young`s friend that you referenced, Crystal, Violet Propst. She`s here. Now, she is referencing what appears to be the suicide note that you guys have referenced. She says, quote, "Violet, you are one of the best friends I`ve ever had. I really miss being around you all the time. Even when things were really hard, I never felt alone when you were there." Violet, you`re here by phone with us. You say that isn`t a suicide note. Why?
VOICE OF VIOLET PROPST, MOLLY YOUNG`S FRIEND: No. I don`t believe that`s a suicide note, and there are multiple reasons. She dates the letter to at least a year prior to the incident when she speaks about her sister, she means when she`s feeling distant from a sister she`s been spending a lot of time with, as well as fighting with another sister whom she made up with long ago.
In addition, this letter was found underneath her bed. It wasn`t something she left on a table for somebody to see. She hated guns. To my knowledge, she had never shot a gun, has no desire to do so, and even the mention of guns would elicit negative commentary from her. I do not believe that she shot herself.
PINSKY: Let me ask you the question that Mark Eiglarsh asked all of us, which is possibly would the motivation be to call this a suicide if it wasn`t?
PROPST: I think that there`s a cover-up here. I think that he was mentally cruel to her. I don`t know exactly what was going on because I wasn`t there --
EIGLARSH: Cover-up by who?
PROPST: But I do know Molly and I do know that she was a very private person. She would never have taken her own life in the apartment with other people. She hated guns. She never would have shot herself. And the texts that were sent the night before (INAUDIBLE) seem fabricated.
It mentions that Molly wanted to have her mother to leave the house so she could find her grandfather`s gun and shoot herself when Molly knew very well that her grandfather`s gun and all his belongings had been removed from the house years prior.
WRIGHT: And I thought it was Richie`s gun. Nobody saying
WRIGHT: -- it was Richie`s gun she shot herself with. Hello! I agree with Mark, though. I think he`s going to get away with murder, because for whatever reason, either they`re suppressing evidence, or I mean, he had blood on his pajamas, but there`s no prints on the gun. It was Richie Minton`s gun, people. Hello.
COPELAND: Well, how do you not wake up if somebody next to you shoots themselves?
COPELAND: I mean, I`ve been around a lot of drunk people. I`ve never been around anybody that drunk.
WRIGHT: Yes, me either.
PROPST: Exactly. He has fractured on his side. She had his DNA under her fingernails. He had tried to give her CPR, supposedly, even though she`s been dead for hours when he woke up and supposedly --
WRIGHT: He moved the body, moved the body.
WRIGHT: -- it`s really hard to shoot yourself with your non-dominant hand.
COPELAND: I have question for Violet, if there`s time.
PINSKY: We have 20 seconds. Go, Brian.
COPELAND: Just quick question. Last time you talked to her Violet, last time you talked to Molly, what was her state of mind?
PROPST: Her state of mind was good. I talked to her the Thursday before the incident. She was a little tired. She had said she had a new job.
PINSKY: Got to go, guys. Sorry, Violet. Thank you for joining us. "Last Call" is next.
PINSKY: Thanks, Samantha. Thanks for watching. We`ll, of course, see you next time. "HLN After Dark" begins right now.