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PIERS MORGAN LIVE
Into the Wild?; Why Violent Criminals Strike; Can Bulletproof Whiteboards Save Lives?; Interview with Steve Wozniak; Miley's Scandalous VMA Performance
Aired August 26, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PIERS MORGAN, CNN HOST: Teenager go missing because of this Hollywood movie?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You've got to get back out in the world, get out of that lonely house and that little workshop of yours. Get back out on the road. Really. You're going to live a long time, Ron. You should make a radical change in your lifestyle.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Jonathan Croom hasn't been heard from since last week. His car, his I.D. and his cash all abandoned. Is he reenacting the 2007 movie? And are other teens doing the same thing?
I'll talk exclusively to his worried father and to the parents of a young man who's tragic story inspired the original film.
Also, reading, writing and rifles. Can't bullet proof classroom doors and whiteboards protect America's students? I'll talk to two men who say a very firm yes.
Plus inside the criminal mind. You know my position on guns, but is mental health and violent video games in particular as important when it comes to reducing crime? From the Georgia school gunman to Hannah Anderson's kidnapper, what went wrong? I'll talk to James DiMaggio's friend and to CNN's own Sanjay Gupta.
Also why the co-founder of Apple is giving a bad review to the first Steve Jobs movie.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It had Steve Jobs mannerisms but it didn't have his thinking and his thoughts.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: We want to begin, though, with our big story. The mysterious disappearance of Arizona teenager, Jonathan Croom. It appears he may have been inspired by the movie, "Into the Wild."
Jonathan's father David Croom joins me now exclusively. Mr. Croom, thank you very much for joining me. And I'm so sorry for this awful thing that's happened to you and to your family. Explain to me and to the viewers why you believe there may be a connection between your son's disappearance and the book and the movie into the wild.
DAVID CROOM, FATHER OF MISSING STUDENT JONATHAN CROOM: Well, I wasn't sure, Piers, about what had happened until I got here. I'd heard his car was here when the police called me when I arrived. And I began putting the pieces together.
And it really required me going back and talking to his friends and even his older brother and finding out what was going on. And he apparently picked up this obsession or extreme interest in this movie in the story six to eight months ago. And he keeps watching the movie. He's been watching it with others. And just thinking it was a great idea.
He's always wanted to go camping. But just recently he had a breakup with a girlfriend, he was heartbroken. He went out to visit a friend in Washington, he watched it again. And they began to romanticize this entire idea. Not realizing that the movie had a bad end. And that's been my concern about the whole thing. That people tend to think it's romantic to go out and do that or fun but they don't realize at the end of the movie, that guy didn't make it.
And that's been my concern the whole time about this if that's what he's reenacting. I want to interject in this and get involved. In the movie, nobody got involved and looked for him, and so that's why we're out looking for Jonathan because we want to change his story and have a happy ending.
MORGAN: Now Jonathan is 18 years old. He left Seattle alone on August 16th, and was due back in Arizona the weekend of August 17th so he could begin classes on Monday at Mesa Community College. His SUV was discovered on Wednesday August 21st by officers near Riddle in Oregon. The SUV didn't break down, it wasn't out of gas, it was unlocked with money inside. And officers said the vehicle had not been broken into.
Jonathan is 6'1", he weighs 140 pounds, brown hair, brown eyes, and may be carrying a multicolored backpack.
Now when you saw the car, what did it tell you about what may have happened here?
CROOM: It told me something was really wrong. His brother said, you mean he left his car behind? He loves that car. So I knew something was really wrong because he would never leave that car behind unless something was wrong. He left it in a place that it was likely to be found. So I think he wanted to be found but he wasn't concerned about it. He seemed to have moved on with it.
And he sent some texts during his trip saying, "I'm going on an adventure, maybe I'm running away, maybe I'm running away from nothing, but I need to see this out." And the last text anybody received from him said, I'll text you if I make it out. That's the last word anybody heard.
MORGAN: Now I have three teenage sons myself and I would not want to have any of them in the position that Jonathan appears to have found himself in. Do you think he has it in him to keep safe in an environment, in the one that he's in now?
CROOM: Well, Piers, he's a tough kid, he's in great shape, and he's really smart, but I'm afraid that he's not geared up for this environment. From what we know, he was still wearing the same shorts and T-shirts that he's usually geared up in, and had very little in his backpack. He had a backpack, maybe socks and a poncho, so -- which is I think the concept as you head out with nothing, gear up along the way.
That's this whole idea, and it's just a bad recipe because it always ends badly. But I'm just thinking he's in over his head and this was a last-minute decision. Something he had been thinking about and I think because of his heartbreak, it's just something he'd jumped into, maybe find himself, trying to get over this.
But clearly he's not ready for this environment at all. And that's why I'm concerned about finding him, interjecting ourself into the story, giving America to help find him, so we can change the ending on this one and bring him home.
MORGAN: Because there have been a number of copycats of young people trying to emulate what happened in the book and the movie, "Into the Wild." As you rightly say, Christopher McCandless, who was the original 24-year-old who was the inspiration for the book and movie, he was found four months later, and he sadly lost his life. And I'll be speaking to his parents in a moment.
What is your message to Jonathan if he's able to see one from you? What would you like to say to him?
CROOM: I would say, hey, we all make mistakes and it doesn't matter how far out you are, or what's happened, we want you to come home. It doesn't matter, just come home, we love you, and everybody is worried about you, and your brother's terrified, so please come home because we all miss you and we just feel terrible and we love you. And find your way, call us, call somebody.
MORGAN: David Croom, it's every parent's nightmare and my heart goes out to you. I would hate for one of my kids to be in the position that your boy finds himself in. And I hope it has the happy ending that you so obviously wish for and we wish for you.
Thank you for joining me.
CROOM: Thank you, Piers. Thank you very much.
MORGAN: And I want to bring in two people who know all too well the tragic turn this kind of story can take. Walt and Billy McCandless. Their son Chris died of starvation in the Alaska wilderness when he was 24. His story is the basis for the movie "Into the Wild."
Walt and Bill McCandless join me now on the phone.
Thank you so much to both of you for joining me. When you hear a story like the one I've just described about Jonathan Croom, and you see the anguish of his farther, it must bring back very vivid memories for both of you?
WALT MCCANDLESS, FATHER OF CHRISTOPHER MCCANDLESS: Yes, those memories never die, of course, and we wanted to just talk to Mr. Croom. I said, you know, we were in suspended animation for two years. And one thing that -- it doesn't come out in the book is, this is the third time Chris had gone off on one of his journeys. He was an adventuresome soul. And each time he'd take higher and higher risks.
The first time he did it was when he graduated from high school between high school and college. He said he'd call every three days. He did for about a month and then just dropped off the radar screen. Did come home in time to get back to school, did well in school, was Phi Beta Kappa. But between his junior and senior year, he went off with his Dodson car and we got two postcards. One from El Paso saying "Headed South." And he was such an adventurer, we could see some things happening in Costa Rica. Who knows? You know?
And then we got another postcard months later just before he came back for his senior year, saying "Headed South." And it was from Fairbanks, Alaska. So that's one thing to think about, you know. What happens with these adventuresome kids as they are successful for a time and they get a heightened sense of invulnerability in this process, and they -- in Chris's case, you know, his journey spanned two years and he ranged from the Sea of Cortez to Alaska and always pitting himself against the elements and the elements won at the end.
And I wanted to tell Mr. Croom that we searched ardently for him in that two-year period. He didn't call us. Family, his siblings, his aunts and uncles, none of his friends in high school or college. And he did make a number of friends on the road that are still friends of ours., but it's had a tragic ending. And he could not -- once he found himself in that precocious place in Alaska, he tried to get out and was unable to. He couldn't crossed the rivers that he'd crossed when it was frozen.
MORGAN: And Billy -- if I could just bring Billy in for a moment.
BILLY MCCANDLESS, MOTHER OF CHRISTOPHER MCCANDLESS: Yes.
MORGAN: One of the aspects of this particular latest disappearance is that the father clearly believes there's a connection to his son Jonathan's obsessive watching of the movie "Into the Wild." And I'm sure that you will both be very keenly aware. There have been a number of supposed copycat trips that young people have taken into the wild trying to emulate what your son had gone through.
How do you feel about that sort of weird cult phenomenon which has been developing? And what do you say to youngsters who want to follow him -- in Christopher's footsteps like that? B. MCCANDLESS: Well, that -- I'll tell you what I've told many of the children that we have talked to in the colleges and high schools that we've been asked to come speak to, and you're right, there's many, many young people that are just enamored with Chris and what he did, and why he did it.
And we have a message for the family, and including Jonathan, if he's listening. We want to say, young man, please call your parents. No one will ever worry about you, care about you or love you more than your mom and dad. We all have our issues, our personal journeys to accomplish, but why not do them, with the support of those who love you the most?
And our prayers are with you and your family, Jonathan, that you achieve your goal. Just remember, your loved ones are part of your journey, and that's the message that I would want him to have. And to remember in his heart.
MORGAN: Well, Walt and -- I think that's extremely sensible advice and very moving as well.
Walt and Billy, thank you so much for joining me. And I'm so sorry that your own adventurous son ended in such tragedy. But I do appreciate the words of counsel and advice you've just given for Jonathan and his family. And let's hope he turns up safe and well.
Thank you both very much.
B. MCCANDLESS: Thank you, sir.
MORGAN: So how long can you survive in the wilderness? That's a question for Dr. Sanjay Gupta.
Sanjay, a very story that hopefully will have a happy ending to it. But what is the reality of an 18-year-old boy who suddenly goes on one of these adventures and finds himself in the wild? Realistically, how easy is it to survive in that situation?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, it really depends on what you start with in terms of your physical health and what resources you have. You know, if you -- I've covered a lot of stories, Piers, over the years where someone is truly without any resources in the middle of a natural disaster, for example. And people generally cite something known as the rule of threes, which basically means three minutes without air. Three days without water, three weeks without food.
Very general guidelines, obviously. It can depend a lot on again your physical stature. But I was looking at a little bit of the area where he is supposedly and, you know, at night, it gets into the high 50s, during the day into the 80s, it also didn't sound like it was much the wilderness as it was an area that may have some resources for him as well.
So who knows for sure what's going on with him. But that's the general rule of thumb, Piers. MORGAN: Sanjay, stay with me. When we come back, I want to know what you think was going on in the mind of an 8-year-old boy who police say intentionally shot and killed his grandmother after watching violent video games including "Grand Theft Auto." That's after the break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSHUA COOKE, JAILED FOR MURDERING HIS PARENTS: Violent video games -- I believe Adam Lanza had a big stockpile of violent video games, too. And like I said, I don't blame any video game or anything like that for what I did. You know, I totally take -- put the blame on myself, but these things, they accumulate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: It's from my jailhouse interview with Joshua Cooke who murdered his adopted parents when he was 19 years old. In part he said because of the influence of violent video games. And now we have the shocking story of an 8-year-old boy in Louisiana who police say intentionally shot and killed his grandmother, allegedly after playing "Grand Theft Auto."
So what can be done about this kind of violent crime? And about killers like James DiMaggio who abducted Hannah Anderson after killing her mother and brother?
Back with me now, CNN's Sanjay Gupta. My apologies, Sanjay.
Also joining me, DiMaggio family spokesman, Andrew Spanswick, CEO of the Clean Center.
Sanjay, on this question of violent video games and the effect that they can have on people, who perhaps already have some prepossessing mental health issue, or in the case of an 8-year-old boy, are just too young to understand the distinction perhaps between fantasy and reality? Do you believe there is a link?
GUPTA: Well, I think common sense would have you think, certainly in the case of this 8-year-old boy, that there is some sort of association here. I mean, I think, I've heard the story as have you, and it's pretty -- it's pretty tough to believe that there wasn't some sort of relationship here.
There's been a lot of studies on this, Piers. I know you've investigated this yourself. But a lot of the studies have been done on people who are much older. And whose frontal lobe, that judgment part of the brain, is more developed.
And I will tell you, Piers, that, you know, you have studies that really point to both sides of this issue. Lots of studies, even those within the U.S. military that show there could be some benefits to video games. Even supposedly violent video games. But there are others that show that the people who develop -- who play these video games can develop a lack of empathy afterwards. And that's even been imaged in the brain.
This is a controversial area, but the idea that the video games, at least in someone who is a full-on adult, then makes them act violent is a little bit of a stretch. It's a harder association to make. It may cause less empathy, but it also may be the situation that you describe. Maybe people who already have less empathy are more drawn to these types of games.
MORGAN: Let's turn now to Hannah Anderson and what's going on now. We've got some footage here. This is where she talks about why she connected with so many random people through Facebook and Instagram.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HANNAH ANDERSON, KIDNAPPING SURVIVOR: I connect with them through Facebook. And Instagram. It just helps me grieve like post pictures and to show how I'm feeling. And I'm a teenager.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Andrew Spanswick is back with me now, he's a former friend of James DiMaggio, and a spokesman for the DiMaggio family. I'll ask you in a moment for your reaction to it, Andrew.
But, Sanjay, did this surprise people, I think that one of the first things that Hannah did after she was freed from her terrible ordeal was to go on Facebook and social media and have -- a sort of almost entire day of interaction with complete strangers?
What do you think of that phenomenon amongst young people these days?
GUPTA: Yes, I mean, and I've seen this before. Obviously this is a whole and unique situation. But this idea, first of all, that younger people are communicating in different ways, I think is obviously very apparent here. And the idea that, you know, you'd think of young people having more resilience from something like this, this may be one of the ways that they actually manifest that, by reaching out to people, communicating with them.
I will say something else that may be obvious but people may not think of is that, you know, when you go through an ordeal like this, and you don't have an obvious physical sort of symptom, or physical sign of it, it's sometimes can be debilitating as survivors have told me in the past. It's much more of a psychological symptom and that I think in some ways even amplifies this desire to reach out and in this case through social media.
MORGAN: Yes, Andrew, obviously, you know the DiMaggios well. You were a friend of James DiMaggio. A very good friend of Laura. And in fact, I can reveal that tomorrow night we'll have the first exclusive interview with Laura, who was James DiMaggio's only surviving sibling. It'll be a fascinating interview. But you also are a therapist. You've dealt with many issues like this.
So many issues raised by what happened here. A friend of yours who apparently just completely snapped, it would appear, for reasons we may never be fully sure of. But also Hannah, who was obviously in a very complicated situation with him as a family friend and so on. What do you make of it, now that you've had a bit of time to really assess it?
ANDREW SPANSWICK, DIMAGGIO'S FAMILY SPOKESMAN: Well, I still think it goes back to his childhood trauma. And in my work, I've seen a lot of this. And it's amazing how prevalent mental health issues are. And it's sort of the silent pain and pain that people don't -- you know, they don't bring on themselves. So there's 2.2 million schizophrenics in the United States. That's twice the number of people that have Alzheimer's disease.
There's four times that have a mood disorder like bipolar illness. In America largely it's forgotten about these people. We've dropped any mental health services largely, we have the Community Mental Health Centers Act and we had other efforts to try and do things but the state and federal governments have largely dropped their responsibility in taking care of the mentally ill.
MORGAN: Sanjay, we've talked about so many things recently from marijuana to violent video games, to other issues to prescription pill addiction and so on. At the root cause perhaps of all this is that there's a lot of mental health problems in America.
Is there enough being done either at the state level or federal level to tackle what many think is the root cause behind so much of the violence?
GUPTA: I completely agree. I mean, I am sort of struck by the fact that we don't -- mental illness gets short shrift so many times. I think Andrew is sort of alluding to. And you know, there haven't been enough resources for people who -- we can -- we know are at risk, and I think it's a real shame.
Having said that, you know, I think it's important to point out, and I'm curious to see what Andrew thinks about this, most people who commit these types of violent crimes actually do not have mental illness. And people who have mental illness are more likely to be victims of these sorts of crimes than perpetrators of these crimes.
I only bring that out, Piers, because I think, you know, the context is really important here and I think the associations that people immediately make. I saw it after Newtown, I saw it after, you know, several of these shootings over the years. They immediately assign a label.
I remember after -- what happened in Sandy Hook, they immediately pointed at Adam Lanza may have Asperger's and somehow that was the reason for what happened. That was a complete falsehood and you know it was a dangerous myth, frankly.
So, yes, I think mental illness gets short shrift, but we should not fault -- you know, make the same mistake other people are making and draw these associations too closely.
MORGAN: Andrew, final -- your reaction to that? SPANSWICK: Yes, I mean, I think that's partially true, there's also there's paranoid schizophrenia out there. I mean, there's a lot of people that actually are mentally ill that do commit crimes. And people that are mentally ill often don't have a connection to reality the same way a healthy brain will.
And as Sanjay said, people whose frontal lobes are developing at an early stage, they're more influenced and they tend to disassociate from reality more. Also we're learning more and more about mental illness starting earlier and earlier in life. So people begin to have a mental illness, and it hasn't been diagnosed yet, and then they'll go ahead and create some sort of delusion in their head which can result in a tragedy like we saw today.
MORGAN: Andrew Spanswick, thank you again for coming in.
And Sanjay, thank you very much indeed.
A reminder that tomorrow I'll talk to the woman who knows -- James DiMaggio better than anybody else. His sister Laura. She hasn't spoken publicly since her brother's death. She sits down with me tomorrow night exclusively.
And next, a bulletproof back-to-school. Is this the best way to keep American students safe?
MORGAN: Students at Sandy Hook Elementary School are returning to school tomorrow morning in a new location and a different building. And of course nothing can erase the memory of what happened last December when Adam Lanza killed 26 people at the school.
Joining me now is a man who has a novel idea to try to prevent the next school shooting. It's a bulletproof whiteboard. George Tunis' company Hardwire makes the whiteboard. He's sold them to around a hundred school in five states. Among them University of Maryland Eastern Shores. He joins me along with Ernest Leatherbury, he's the campus police chief at the university.
Welcome to both of you.
So, George Tunis, tell me why you came up with this or why you think it would work?
GEORGE TUNIS, FOUNDER, HARDWIRE: Our company is an armor company, full of engineers, and throughout the war and several Darfur contracts we were able to create armor that protected our troops overseas. And it was a natural extension of that armor line because we were saving a lot of lives overseas on -- in truck armor and overheard cover armor to begin to outfit police forces with some of the newer technology.
And that became shields for drug interdiction teams and Border Patrol units. And after Sandy Hook happened, I'll never forget it, I was actually caught the actual story a few days after it occurred, I was traveling. And I saw it with my son sitting right next to me on the couch. And I was like, the same technology can apply to your school and the armor needs to be there.
Sandy Hook was done and over in three minutes. And the armor needs to be in the hands really of the teachers because they're the ones that are there to protect the students. So the idea --
MORGAN: And let me ask you.
TUNIS: -- came to me that day and --
MORGAN: Can it stop an AR-15 in the hands of somebody like Adam Lanza?
TUNIS: We make all levels of armor, so the armor that we've outfitted many school with -- schools with is NIJ Level 3A, so that's exactly the same armor that would be in a police vest. We do make armor that stops all assault rifles. And that's called NIJ Level 3 armor. So a little bit heavier, a little more expensive to do that exact thing, but we make that level armor and above. And of course we make military armor to stop some of the most dangerous IEDs in the world.
MORGAN: OK. Let me bring in the police chief here, Chief Leatherbury. Are you supportive of this?
ERNEST LEATHERBURY, UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND EASTERN SHORE CAMPUS POLICE CHIEF: Yes, I am. I'm supportive of anything that aids us and ensures the safety of our students, faculty and staff at the university.
MORGAN: Is there not a slight danger of chicken and the egg here? I mean, is the real problem not the gun, rather preventative methods for when somebody burst in with that gun? I mean, my argument would be, how does this stop somebody like Adam Lanza with an AR-15 and a hundred bullet magazine, for example?
TUNIS: It's a great question. We might both be able to answer this, but when he burst in at Sandy Hook, the teachers had nothing. I mean, they literally have no armor. And you know, today, I remember when police vests were knew. And now, every police officer has a vest.
In the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, we went to those wars without enough armor and had to hastily have (ph)...
MORGAN: Right. I mean, I -- I did -- but I see, look (ph), here's -- here's my thing. I get that for -- for law enforcement and for military.
I suppose my question for you, Ernest Leatherbury, is do we really want to stop militarizing all our schools, all our classrooms. What is the end to that?
Do you end up with kids having to go to school wearing effective (ph) suits of armor? LEATHERBURY: I don't view this as militarizing (ph) our university. I see this as a proactive step to -- to ensure the safety of our community in the unlikely event that someone does come on this campus with the intent to harm our -- our students, staff and our faculty.
MORGAN: OK, like (ph) you (ph) both (ph)...
TUNIS: Here is one of the key things for us.
TUNIS: One -- one of the key things for us was to make it blend in, and you know, so that it doesn't look like a militarized campus. And you can see, you know, one of the white boards here happens to be a yellow board but adding colors is to do exactly what you said.
We don't want the campuses to look militarized. In fact, I have two kids in school...
TUNIS: They're young. And I don't want to take away from their innocence.
MORGAN: I -- I get it. I get it. I think -- I think it's a very interesting proposal. And I, honestly, am not entirely sure what I think.
I'm going to debate in a moment. But first of all, let me to go to another man who believes in bulletproof doors, maybe the answer to keeping classrooms safe.
Jim McCarthy is the President of the Pacific Bulletproof Company and joins me now.
It's a similar kind of theme. But you're doing more for genuinely bulletproof doors?
MORGAN: And this is the kind of thing you're talking about?
MCCARTHY: Well, this is -- not -- you know, this is shop (ph) -- we make corporate room ballistic doors out of this. It's clear. A lot of corporate rooms, conference rooms are, you know, with a clear door.
This is the door we're proposing for schools, which is just a -- if you go to any school, it's a steel door.
MORGAN: Right, a steel classroom door. This is the same look classroom door. It doesn't make fear of everybody. It doesn't create fear.
(CROSSTALK) MORGAN: Are they -- are they prohibitively (ph) expensive?
MORGAN: So schools around America could have these relatively cheaply?
MCCARTHY: I think so, yes.
MORGAN: How do you feel? Are you a parent yourself?
MCCARTHY: I have two kids in school.
MORGAN: How do you feel about my just concern about the militarizing of -- of educational process to kids?
MCCARTHY: You know, I think kids should be able to go to school in a -- in an environment that is not full of fear. They can't learn if they'll full of fear.
I also believe that kids need adults to protect them. And like with the white board idea, you know, if the kid has to hold it up, I mean, that's traumatic enough as it is, you know.
We went through -- we make all kinds of bullet-resistant products for banks, for government, everywhere. And we've spent the last six months fielding calls from schools ever since Sandy Hook.
And they've been saying, hey, what can we do. So they gave us a problem. So we did a lot of research. And we said, look, we can make a door that looks exactly like your classroom door.
MORGAN: And would that door, would that substance stop an AR-15?
MCCARTHY: No, this -- this door would not. We -- we can make the same door that would, same-looking door that would.
But that would be a little cost-prohibitive for schools for every classroom.
MORGAN: See that (ph) I think maybe one of the issues here because...
MORGAN: ...unless it prevents (ph) an AR-15 which is the preferred weapon of all these mass shooters, it has been used in the last five or six mass shootings in America, unless it stops that, I'm not sure it is I think any more than -- than fiddling while Rome (ph) burns, personally.
MCCARTHY: Well, OK, we looked at that. And one of the things like -- we -- we work with banks. If you go to any Chase Bank, you're going to probably see our work, OK, the (ph) barriers (ph).
And 20 years ago, I opened this company because banks were having major problems getting robbed. And the cameras witnessed the rockery. But it did nothing to prevent it, OK? So when you put a barrier there, that they can't get to the money, they quit robbing, OK? Now, this may not stop the AR-15 bullets from going through it.
But it is going to stop them from getting in the classroom and doing hand-to-hand shooting of kids, which is going to eliminate a lot of fatalities. So it's not an end-all be-all.
And no one product's going to be. But this is going to slow up the person and get the time for the police to come in and respond.
MORGAN: Jim McCarthy, thank you very much. George Tunis and Earnest Leatherbury, we thank you, both, very much as well.
When we come back, I'll get into all this with a man who usually agrees with me about everything especially when it comes to guns in schools. But you might be surprised.
Ben Ferguson is on the grill tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LAPIERRE: I call (ph) of (ph) Congress today to act immediately to appropriate whatever is necessary to put armed police officers in every single school in this nation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: That of course was the NRA's Wayne Lapierre, calling for more guns in schools in the wake of the Sandy Hook massacre. He had of course said the complete opposite a few years before.
Well, that's Wayne Lapierre for you. You know where I stand on guns. I think that generally, you have to reduce the volume on the grill (ph) tonight and that it (ph) is (ph) increasing (ph).
Ben Ferguson, CNN political commentator and host of the "Ben Ferguson Show."
So Ben, I'll concede that I can understand why a lot of parents in America following Sandy Hook, in particular, have concerns about their child's safety and perhaps, they're gun owners and responsible ones and may think it makes perfect sense to have the bulletproof boards or bulletproof doors and so on.
But you know, but a lot of tweets since we did this segment just now, one here from acts (ph) photography (ph), forward, it says they are treating the symptoms, not the disease. What a frightening -- frightening country to bring my kids to (ph).
But that's the other side of the argument that you start militarizing schools with bulletproof doors, bulletproof -- where does it end? Do kids have to wear bulletproof vests? BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No, I don't think so. And I think you've got to look at two aspects of this. We have to do more in mental, health.
I think we can all agree on that issue. But I also think the doors is actually an interesting idea, which does not take a gun to help protect kids. If you do put these doors, even the door the young man was -- the man was talking about a moment ago, where he says, hey, it's going to give the teacher time to move those kids into a corner and take that shooter a lot longer to get in that room if he gets it at all.
That's the same thing we did with airplanes after 9/11. And I don't feel like I'm getting into a militarized zone when I got in an airplane to fly somewhere.
I feel like I'm getting on a normal airplane that has an armored door that I know is helping protect the passengers from terrorists, from bad guys, the same way that this door would help protect students from a bad guy, from a terrorist. And -- and this is one of those steps where I say, here is what I'll compromise.
Maybe we should look at this. Obviously, I think having first responders there that can help protect kids is the best-case scenario. But this is one I can get behind.
MORGAN: But isn't there also an argument that says if even these bulletproof doors and boards can't stop an AR-15, what the hell are we doing in America still allowing AR-15s to be sold to civilians? I'm serious.
FERGUSON: Well, I -- I think, I -- I understand what you're saying. But I also think there's a lot of things that don't stop a lot of bullets.
And if you have a bad guy that's got one bullet or a hundred bullets, he's still a bad guy with a bullet. And if you give him any type of gun, he's a bad guy with a gun.
I -- I -- I still go back to the core of this. We have to start doing a better job of going after the black market and going after people that break gun laws and putting them in jail for a long time.
We had a shooter the other day that went to a school. He was a convicted felon. He wasn't allowed to own any gun.
Yet, he got multiple guns on the black market. So you can do everything legally to say a guy like that can't have a weapon.
And you can do a lot of things with mental health to say people with mental health issues can't purchase a firearm. It doesn't mean that they're not going to find one or multiple like we saw in Georgia.
And then you still need someone to fight against them and shoot back to save people's lives in 99 percent of those situations. MORGAN: OK, let's move on to Syria, because John Kerry's very strong today, said that the use of chemical weapons in Syria by the Assad -- Assad regime is undeniable, he said to that. And it seems to be the preliminary rhetoric now as America gears up to take some kind of action.
He's supportive of a military strike against Syria and its regime?
FERGUSON: I think at this point, when America says there's a thin red line in the international community, most civilized nations agree with that. You cannot use chemical or biological weapons on your own people.
He did it more than likely months ago from the data we've seen. Now, there's no doubt he has gassed or attacked his own people with chemical weapons.
We should absolutely get involved at least from the air and say, Assad, we told you this was the line. We told it to you a year ago. Barack Obama, I support him when he said it a year ago.
But he better do it now because otherwise, if he doesn't do something, then leaders like Assad know, they can do whatever they want to do including gassing their own people. And the United States of America is a big, big, big empty place that's not going to stand up and say, we're going to hold you accountable for this.
And I think John McCain's right because you look at John Kerry today. He said a bunch of stuff that meant nothing to Assad.
He just said, we denounce what you're doing. We think it's wrong. And the nation agrees with us. And now, we're going to punt (ph) the to the U.N.
Well, the U.N.'s not going to stop this. Someone else has to step up and get it started to fix this problem.
MORGAN: Well, I agree with some of that. The problem, of course, is after Iraq, it's hard to know who to trust when we're told there's incontrovertible evidence of use of chemical weapons or ownership of WMD.
And that is one of the problems here, is that some people just don't believe on the American government anymore when it says it has that proof. I want to see the proof.
If the proof is there, I think there's a humanitarian incentive. And in fact, it's the duty...
MORGAN: ...I think of the Americans and the United Nations to go in and help those poor people in Syria. But Ben, for now, thank you very much indeed.
FERGUSON: Good to be here. MORGAN: Coming up next, Ashton Kutcher versus Steve Wozniak, the Apple co-founder tells you why the movie version of Steve Jobs' life is not the real story. That (ph) interview is coming up next.
MORGAN: As seen there from the new movie, "Jobs" who stars Ashton Kutcher as the late Steve Jobs. Critics say Hollywood got the story of Apple wrong.
Among those critics, a man who was there from the start and probably knows, Apple Co-Founder Steve Wozniak. And he joins me now.
Steve, good to see you.
STEVE WOZNIAK, CO-FOUNDER, APPLE COMPUTERS: Oh, good to see you too, Piers.
MORGAN: Now, you're not happy about this movie. Why?
WOZNIAK: I didn't say they got the story wrong. The story is in their head anyway. The story is in a lot of people's head.
The movie wasn't a quality movie. I was hoping for a great movie that showed Steve Jobs his brilliance and how he could come up with ideas and -- and argue with people and make decisions and also the nasty side of him, the one that you love and hate.
I wanted those emotions again. And the movie was flat.
MORGAN: What did you get from the movie there?
WOZNIAK: I don't know if that's -- that's the acting -- was the missing part of it. It had Steve Jobs' mannerisms. But it didn't have his thinking and his thoughts.
And -- and also, there were -- a lot of scenes -- well, almost every scene in the movie, never happened. Now, that's OK to make the scenes fictional because you can't make up the past. You can't get it exactly accurate.
MORGAN: That's (ph) the character of Steve Jobs you didn't like.
WOZNIAK: But -- but it's like, is the meaning of the scenes even correct, you know? And over and over, Steve Jobs is like this -- this god-departing, all the instructions and wisdom to everyone else.
And usually, especially in the early days, it was the opposite way. I mean, I -- just a little tiny thing, I was so offended that they portrayed me as the punk (ph) Beatles guy and Steve was the -- the hit Dillon guy.
Wait a minute, I had every Dillon album, no Beatles albums. But every real scene in -- actually Apple, the computer stuff was no, no, no, that didn't happen. I never even left Steve Jobs like that, like you show on the movie. It's sort of an emotional moment. The only emotions I got out of the film, to tell you the truth, were three little jokes.
I laughed out loud in the theater.
MORGAN: Now, Ashton Kutcher has responded to your comments about this. He said the following. Let's watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ASHTON KUTCHER, ACTOR: Steve Wozniak is being paid by another movie studio to help support their Steve Jobs film. The biggest criticism that I've ultimately heard is that he wanted it to represent his contribution to Apple fairly.
And in all fairness, the movie is called "Jobs." And it's about Steve Jobs and the legacy of Steve Jobs. And -- and so I think it focuses more about what -- on -- what his contribution to Apple was.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: What is your response to that?
WOZNIAK: You know, I actually was hoping to see this movie. And I believed in it so much because Ashton was in it, you know. And he did some good -- the Jobs mannerisms well.
But when he said that, disingenuous (ph), why would he turn it into something personal, you know, you know? He's not being paid to represent this movie.
He's not making money on how well the movie does. I'm sure not making any money off how well any movie does.
He -- they had asked me to consult on their movie, this movie "Jobs." And I got the script. The script's already written before you consult.
They're not going to consult and then write the script based on it. The script, my wife and I, was horrified by it. It was horrible and awful.
And it was portrayed wrong. You didn't portray Jobs honestly the way you would have wanted. And it wasn't the quality product like an Apple product.
Jobs would have never let the movie out. It's so flat, you know.
MORGAN: Is -- is he too nice in the movie, too?
WOZNIAK: Who? Steve jobs?
MORGAN: Ashton Kutcher's impression of Jobs.
WOZNIAK: What was happening is, no. There are a lot of sides of Steve Jobs that are -- that would get in emotional panic, temper tantrums, do horrible things.
Most of the people on the Mcintosh team told me personally, they would never work for Steve again.
Let's watch a clip which I think supports this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KUTCHER: If you don't share our enthusiasm and care for the vision of this company...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no, no, I'm not understanding...
KUTCHER: Get out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What?
KUTCHER: Get your (inaudible) feet (ph) out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What, you're...
KUTCHER: You're done.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are you going to do, you're going to fire me?
KUTCHER: No, I already fired you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Is that like Steve Jobs?
WOZNIAK: There were a lot of incidences of Steve Jobs' history that were like that. They were not in front of me. And you know what, there was only about one shown in the movie.
MORGAN: Are you hoping the Aaron Sorkin (ph) version, the -- the movie that he is bringing out about Steve Jobs will be a little bit more realistic?
WOZNIAK: I was hoping this movie would be, a, realistic or if not realistic, it's very excited and entertaining. I'm still hoping the same thing's for the Sorkin movie from Sony.
And I have no way to know and I have no way to know whether I'm going to say good things about it or bad until I see it. But, you know, but I'll give them at least my input to help them come up with their ideas.
And every movie technically is a fiction.
MORGAN: Then let's -- let's just change gears a bit here because you -- you drove down from San Jose, about a five, five, six-hour journey. Eagle Musk (ph) is threatening this high falut (ph) which can pin (ph) you down here in about 30 minutes.
But you told me in the break there that you wouldn't do that. WOZNIAK: He (ph) has a great vision, you know, of new science and technologies and exploring ways of doing things nobody ever thought of before. I, myself, I haven't (ph) -- I'm late in life.
You know what, I love to drive. I count the time that I would drive from my home to an airport, go through all this security stuff where you feel so demeaned by the CSA (ph)...
MORGAN: You haven't flown since 9/11, right?
WOZNIAK: I'm the wrong person to ask. I have not flown since 9/11 if I can drive in a day. That means Salt Lake City, 12 hours, Phoenix, 12 hours.
I drive. I don't fly. So I'm just the wrong person to ask. Now, as the hyper-loop (ph) goes, I thought about it, oh, my gosh, 30 minutes from here to L.A., well, the actual flying time for a plane is 45 minutes.
So you've cut 15 minutes off a plane flight and you still will have to go through -- where are you going to check your luggage? And I don't see carry-on abilities there, you know, from the little pictures I saw.
And it -- there were an awful lot of questions not answered. And how many people can do it? And are you going to have to wait to get on one of these or the next one always instantly got, you know, hundreds of -- of openings for you?
MORGAN: How many hours of sleep do you need in life, Steve?
WOZNIAK: It depends. I got for a lot of my life, I was four or five. And now, you know what, I really like it when I can get eight. But my sleep is -- will be one hour here, sometimes, two hours there...
MORGAN: I just can't imagine your brain ever being dormant.
WOZNIAK: Oh, no, no, no, no. You know what, almost everybody that's excited about the -- it comes from the technology field -- excited about the latest gadgets and do they do this and do they do -- my whole life was gadgets and these hi-fis, hooking (ph) things up.
And of course there, I was building...
MORGAN: Did you wake up at like 3:00 a.m. with some genius idea? Does that actually happen?
WOZNIAK: It happened a lot in the old days. It happens less now. Sometimes, I go to bed thinking a thought. And I used to wake up in the middle of the night with -- with solutions.
You know, you go through periods of your life. Usually, it's when you're young and you have the greatest intellectual freedom and intellectual curiosity and the physical energy to stay up longer and working hard.
MORGAN: See, I always feel more energetic just having you sitting near me. It's almost like you're beaming some radiation towards me of high creative genius energy.
WOZNIAK: Oh, you know what, just say that I'm excited about life. I'm excited about life. And...
MORGAN: Yes, talking of life, last time we spoke, you got this bombshell that you had been with Kim and Kanye and little baby Northwest and this friendship had developed. And now, you've been telling me that you -- you stayed in touch.
And Kanye rings you from nightclubs and so on.
WOZNIAK: You know what, I -- I -- I like them both very much. I'm not -- I'm not pressing, you know, they -- they have enough people that probably press on them, celebrities but...
MORGAN: But he calls you, Kanye (ph)...
WOZNIAK: They've been nice. They have been -- been very nice. And they've -- they've called us and contacted us. And I think they treat us as -- as friends, probably because we have -- we are no threat to them.
MORGAN: Well, what do and Kanye talk about?
WOZNIAK: You know, we had some nice discussions about some of his ideas for a business he sees. We haven't talked about it in detail.
We haven't talked about specifics -- pretty much just that, hey, you know, I -- I approve of him. I count him a friend.
MORGAN: Steve, as always, I could talk to you hours. But I've got to leave it there. It's been great to see you. And come back soon.
MORGAN: Come back -- come back with Kanye.
MORGAN: Let's do a special.
WOZNIAK: All righty. You've got $2 bills?
MORGAN: Yes, Steve Wozniak, one of my favorite guests. We'll be right back.
MORGAN: Even if you didn't see MTV's video music awards last night, more than 10 million people did, you surely saw this -- a moment I can only describe as Miley gone wild. Now, it's actually (ph) shocking when someone gets little, should we say edgy at the VMAs or even takes some of her clothes off.
But this is the twerk-tastic performance that people just cannot stop talking about. Everyone else was thinking, Miley, what were you thinking?
I was thinking, Billy Ray, what were you thinking? Well, Miley's dad, Billy Ray Cyrus, joins me exclusively tomorrow night, his first interview since the VMAs.
If I were you, Miley, I'd be tuning in. That's all for us tonight. "ANDERSON COOPER" starts right now.