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Daughter Versus Mother

Aired August 28, 2013 - 21:00   ET



DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, a mother whose baby son was murdered sees her own daughter turn against her in court.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ve seen her briefly for a few hours about four years ago. Other than that, it`s been since I was 8.

PINSKY: Why would a child do this to a grieving parent? Our behavior bureau confronts the tragedy head on.

Plus, so-called Uncle Jim`s sister on the attack defending her brother.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I remember very vividly telling him she`s trouble.

PINSKY: Is she, in fact, blaming Hannah Anderson for everything? Piers Morgan joins me.

Let`s get started.



PINSKY: Good evening, everybody.

We have some amazing panels and interesting stories up for tonight.

Samantha Schacher is my co-host. She also is the host of "Pop Trigger" on the Young Turks network.

Coming up, whom you just saw there, the sister of the man who police say kidnapped Hannah Anderson, we`re going to see her tell Piers Morgan he gave his life to save Hannah.

Piers will be here to tell us his thoughts. But first up, estranged daughter takes the stand against her own mother, a mother who had witnessed the baby -- her baby being shot in the face. Take a look at this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you see in this courtroom today the man who shot and killed your baby, Antonio Santiago?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. The young man in the blue.

PINSKY: So, she had lost two sons, your sister?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My sister`s lost two sons.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He talked about the mental illness. He talked about the side effects of the drugs that she had been taking. He talked about hallucinations that she could have had. He talked about vision impaired, that she had, you know, eye damage, and that`s why she wore corrective lenses. I mean, they went on for four hours.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In this case, like it or not, this witness, this complainant, this victim has some perception problems.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t recall that. I never said that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She asked me how long I thought it would take to get the life insurance policy check to come.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I had to watch my baby die, and I want him to die. A life for a life.


PINSKY: Ashley, the daughter, says her mom changed her story about what happened the night of the shooting and that parts of her story just didn`t add up to her.

Joining us to discuss, Crystal Wright from, attorney and CNN contributor Danny Cevallos, HLN`s own Lynn Berry, and Brian Copeland, talk show host on KGO Radio in San Francisco, author of "Not a Genuine Black Man."

And I`ve invited Crystal back in spite of her cheating on me repeatedly, tonight with the young lady. I saw her with Jessica Yellin, I don`t know, but we`ll have to talk about it later.


PINSKY: Lynn, fill me in on Ashley and -- this is such an intense story. What happened today?

LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST: Yes, this is the estranged daughter of Sherry West, and it`s important to note, she came in from jail. She`s actually in jail because she failed to appear on charges of shoplifting. This happened back on July 8th. She was charged for shoplifting $1,000 worth of merchandise at bed bath & beyond.

So, she was released. Well, when she had her next court date, she didn`t appear, put back in jail and that`s when she testified today. Why is that important? Because the state will argue -- consider the source.

PINSKY: Lynn, so, you`re saying the woman that we saw on the tape right next to you there, this is the daughter whom has been completely estranged from her mom, is actually a prisoner right now? She`s in jail? She came out of jail?

BERRY: In prison on shoplifting charges, yep. And she`s in civilian clothes, so they can be confusing to people. They call it in the business, civies. You know, lawyers want their clients to be wearing civies because they look more credible in civilian clothes. If they`re in an orange jumpsuit and shackles, they don`t come off as credible.


PINSKY: Crystal is making faces. Wait, Crystal, why you`re making faces of this?

WRIGHT: Well, because Lynn is exactly right! So, let`s deceive the jurors, let`s dress her up, she`s not a perp, you know, she`s not a criminal. We`ll clean her up.

And you know, I don`t know, Dr. Drew, maybe you can clarify this, but people who steal can also be habitual liars. You know, I`ve seen the two go hand in hand. And let`s remember, daughter dearest was estranged from mommy since she was 8 years old.


WRIGHT: So, I think this is a classic example of -- I mean, how do you do this to your mother? I`m going to get back at mommy, who just lost her 13-month-old who was shot in the face, and I`m just going to rat on her and make up all these crazy tales, not to mention that mommy suffers from mental illness, and that`s -- you know, this could further stress the mother. I mean, look --

PINSKY: You`re right.

WRIGHT: It`s just crazy.

PINSKY: But it`s crazy and not only is it crazy between the two of them, look at how heated this trial`s become. This is an exchange between attorneys. Take a look at this tape.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re eight days into the trial and it`s time the jury got to see the true Sherry West! Play the video and stop coming up with excuses to point the attention everywhere else. This is all about keeping Sherry West`s videotaped testimony off the evening news.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It has finally come out. We are not playing the evidence for purposes of the jury. Mr. Goff (ph) wants to play it for purposes of CNN and the networks.


PINSKY: And HLN, Brian. What do you think?

BRIAN COPELAND, KGO RADIO: Well, it tells me how desperate this defense must be --


COPELAND: -- to beat up on the mother who saw her child, her baby shot in the face in front of her. I mean, it`s generally risky for an attorney to go after a victim, because what you do is you create sympathy for the victim at the expense of your own client.

So, this tells me they`re desperate.

PINSKY: But, Brian, Danny, you were very, I wouldn`t say defensive about the defense, you were at least sort of legitimating the strategies they were pursuing. Do you still feel that way?

DANNY CEVALLOS, ATTORNEY: If you believe in punishing this defendant, then you have to believe in the system, and you almost have to root for the defense attorney to do the best job that he can, be as zealous as he can --

PINSKY: Oh, Danny.

CEVALLOS: Because ultimately, when it comes up --

PINSKY: I can feel Crystal`s eyes rolling. I can feel the eyes rolling.

WRIGHT: Well, no --

CEVALLOS: Let me finish. When it comes up on appeal, we will be satisfied -- will you be satisfied that this defendant has had every opportunity?

And look, at the end of the day, the jury`s going to see it for what it is. I`m not saying it`s a not guilty.


PINSKY: Fair enough. Sam --

COPELAND: Well, it has to be a vigorous defense. There has to be a vigorous defense.

WRIGHT: I agree with Danny. Danny and I are agreeing on this.


SCHACHER: -- crossed the line by exploiting her mental illness --

PINSKY: Hold on, two people going.

SCHACHER: Crystal, go ahead. Sorry.

WRIGHT: He has a right to his defense. However, I think there`s a right to a defense and making a mockery of your defense.

PINSKY: All right, Sam.

WRIGHT: I mean, I think that`s the thin line.

PINSKY: Got it.

SCHACHER: No, I agree. I think that -- what I was trying to say, I think that this defense is grasping at straws, I think it`s a shame in they`re exploiting her mental illness.

And you know what? The daughter is not credible. They have not been talking for years.


SCHACHER: There is a lot of bad blood in their relationship. And I think that the mom called the daughter for one reason, to find out about --

PINSKY: Let me ask you something, though.


PINSKY: Let me ask something. Just your gut, looking at the daughter on the stand, did anybody feel she looked sort of credible, even though, Crystal, you`re right --



COPELAND: Not at all.

BERRY: Any time you get someone breaking down on the stand, the jury has had a reaction. You see that in the courtroom.

But let me also say, another nugget from today, after 6:00, it was hilarious, because the state goes, oh, wait, the defense attorneys don`t care anymore, the evening news has already gone on. I mean, this has become a show.

WRIGHT: Right.

BERRY: This has become a show --

WRIGHT: Exactly.

BERRY: And we`re forgetting the fact that a little baby boy was shot between the eyes.



PINSKY: And the reason I brought that up, though, is I`m concerned that the mom`s mental illness might make people misjudge what they`re seeing there and make them think that she is insincere.

Brian, you`re saying no.

COPELAND: No. But here`s the thing.

The bottom line here is you have a dead child. And I will give this mother a pass on every inconsistency in her story after seeing something like that. Who wouldn`t be upset? Who wouldn`t be distraught? Who wouldn`t have a problem in terms of remembering exactly what happened and exactly how it happened?

PINSKY: You bet. Danny, can you back me up on that?

WRIGHT: Absolutely.

CEVALLOS: Absolutely. Look, he`s absolutely right. When you have a case like this, there are reasons for inconsistencies. The point is, the defense attorney not only may but must exploit those inconsistencies, and ultimately, rest assured, the jury will make their way out on the credibility and come down on the right side.

PINSKY: I hope so.

Next up, the behavior bureau takes a closer look at this fractured mother-daughter relationship. Which of one of these two are we to believe and what is going on between them?

PINSKY: And later, get this, the sister of kidnapping and murder suspect James DiMaggio -- there she is -- she defends her brother. She says 16-year-old Hannah Anderson was trouble. Is she really blaming the 16-year-old? Piers Morgan rings in after this.



PINSKY: A sobbing mom, her baby shot in the head and killed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He shot me in the leg, and I said, "Please don`t shoot my baby." He walked over and shot my baby.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The defense has a job to do.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They do have to ask you if you suffer from mental illness of any kind.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And what it seems like they`re trying to do now is really try to blame the mother.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bipolar disorder, manic depression?


PINSKY: That they`re taking this woman that`s been through the unthinkable experience, she has mental health issues, and they`re going to make it her fault.

BERRY: That was one part of the defense`s strategy. They also went to alleged drug abuse. They also went to alleged child abuse of two other children that she had, even going as far as saying that she starved her older daughter that she is now estranged from.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How many years has it been since you`ve seen your mother?

ASHLEY GLASSLEY: I seen her briefly for a few hours about four years ago. Other than that, it`s been since I was 8.


PINSKY: Time for the behavior bureau.

My co-host, Samantha Schacher, joining us, attorney and Sirius XM Radio host Jenny Hutt, clinical and forensic psychologist, Cheryl Arutt, Tiffanie Davis Henry, psychotherapist, and HLN contributor and body language expert, Patti Wood, author of "Snap: Making the Most of First Impressions."

The defense called Sherry West`s estranged daughter to the stand today, as we`ve been discussing, and continued the attack on the mom. Take a look.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you recall your mother telling you whether she suffered from any mental conditions or illnesses?

GLASSLEY: I just remember my mom talking to my nanny, her mom, about what mental illnesses she had.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you were present for that conversation?

GLASSLEY: Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. And did your mother tell your grandmother that she suffered from schizophrenia?

GLASSLEY: Yes, sir

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From your observation in dealing with your mother, do you know whether your mother has difficulty with memory?

GLASSLEY: Yes, I would say so.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know whether she has difficulty recalling events?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Prepare to be in some distress. There are tissues to your right. OK.


PINSKY: Patti Wood, what do you see here? Is there genuine emotion and distress?

PATTI WOOD, BEHAVIOR EXPERT: It`s interesting. She presents really like a child, like about 13 or 14 years old. We know she`s actually 21.

There is true anguish. She is definitely stressed, but what`s fascinating is how she actually has so much judgment, the way she strikes certain words and certain comments about the vague recollections of her mother and shakes her head shows she`s still extraordinarily angry at her mother.

PINSKY: Patti would that be righteous indignation?

WOOD: I would say so, definitely. Absolutely.

PINSKY: Yes, finally I get to get back!

WOOD: Yes! Yes!

PINSKY: Something you would tell your mom, Sam?

SCHACHER: Oh, my gosh, I can`t imagine. This is just so sad to see this daughter go after her mom has gone through so much, witnessing the death of her little baby boy. And you know what, Dr. Drew? At the end of the day, I think the reason why the mom did call her daughter was not to talk about how quickly can I get this life insurance money, it was simply because the daughter had experience recently with handling the grandmother`s affairs and she wanted some advice.

PINSKY: Perhaps.

SCHACHER: And it was blown way out of proportion.

PINSKY: Jenny, do you agree?

JENNY HUTT, RADIO HOST: Listen, I think the saddest part about this to me, Dr. Drew, and I think you would probably agree, is that people are getting the presumption that mental illness always leads to violence --


HUTT: That`s not the case, right?

PINSKY: More likely to be the object of violence. Cheryl, you brought that up last night, that somebody with a borderline disorder is more likely to be a victim than a perpetrator, would you agree?

CHERYL ARUTT, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes. I think this is a really important point, that anybody who has a mental illness is so much more likely to have somebody hurt them. And this mom has had so much trauma, she`s had so many things that she`s gone through, and she, obviously, she was not a consistent mom. She was, you know, I`m sure there`s a lot of ways that her daughter feels that she failed her.

But come on! You go after your mom when your brother`s just been murdered? And it`s crushing to watch her help the defense like this.

PINSKY: Hang on, Jenny.

Tiffanie took a big sigh there. Tiffanie, she is not mom of the year, we all agree with that. What do you want to say?

TIFFANIE DAVIS HENRY, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: And I think that`s it. Obviously, you want to take the daughter`s opinions and her judgment with a grain of salt, but we did not live in the home with this mom, we did not experience what the daughter experienced. And so, we have to understand that she knows her mom far better than any of us ever will.

And so, her opinion about the matter is colored through the lenses of her own experience and what she`s experienced with her mom.

So, there`s a part of me that does buy into a little bit of it. I know her words are just laced with judgment, and you can tell that there`s something going on beneath it all, but I have to respect that she knows her mother more than we do, and we have to understand that, you know, she could be capable of something, not saying that she is, not saying that she is, but she knows her mom better than we do.

PINSKY: All right, guys, I am against the clock. We could go on all day. It`s interesting. There`s some contempt and righteous indignation, but on the other hand, there`s a girl who observed this woman`s period over long periods of time and was the object of not so good parenting. Maybe she has a score to settle. More to be revealed.

Next, sherry`s brother back in the behavior bureau. He`s got something to say.

Jacob, thank you for joining us again. Something to say about daughter Ashley`s testimony.

And later, sister, another member now of alleged kidnapper James DiMaggio. You remember him, there he is with Hannah Anderson. She says he died trying to protect Hannah Anderson. Piers Morgan spoke to her and he`ll tell us what he thinks, after the break.



PINSKY: Tell us about your sister. Is there any way, any story you can make up in terms of her mental illness becoming terribly unstable or any circumstance in which you could imagine your sister became capable of killing her own child?

JACOB STILLINGS, BROTHER OF SHERRY WEST: There was absolutely no way. And I talked to her once, maybe twice a week, and I don`t see any differences in her tone, in her actions, in her -- I mean, I pick up on all of that.


STILLINGS: And she`s my sister. She was a loving mother.


PINSKY: Back with co-host Samantha Schacher and our behavior bureau, and joining us again tonight, Jacob Stillings.

Thank you, Jacob. She is Sherry West`s brother and supporter. Again, Jacob, we do appreciate you joining us.

And as we found out last night, this is your second nephew that you have lost, and this, now today more drama. Your niece, Sherry`s daughter, took the stand. What are your thoughts about what she said on the stand today?

STILLINGS: I really don`t agree with anything that she had said today. I didn`t pick up on most of it. I work all day. But what happens is I appreciate you having me back on, but she is not a credible witness.


STILLINGS: She has had her turns with problems in the past. She`s incarcerated at the present time on two different charges. She called her mother for money to get bailed out. She called me as well.

There`s bad blood. There`s bad blood altogether, so --

PINSKY: And, Jacob, let me ask you this, is she just trying to get back at her mom? Is this her chance to really stick it to her or what`s motivating her, or is she telling the truth?

STILLINGS: I love both of them. I love both of them. And you don`t know how much this hurts me between what happened to my nephew, this has nothing to do with any of that. My nephew, I loved him, I wanted to meet him, I wanted to hear his first word, what it was.

But guess what? I don`t want to come between family, but my niece at this time, she`s not in her correct mind, if you ask me. She`s not in her correct mind.

PINSKY: OK, Jacob, hold on --

STILLINGS: She`s been caught up in her own habits.

PINSKY: OK. I want to give my panel a chance to ask you questions.

Tiffanie, do you have anything for Jacob?

HENRY: Well, I wanted to ask, what was it that initially broke the two of them up? I know this is something that has gone along -- their relationship hasn`t been good for a very, very long time --

PINSKY: Tiffanie, I`m going to interrupt you. We are showing pictures that Jacob has exclusively given us of Sherry and her family as the kids re growing up.

HENRY: Amazing.

PINSKY: It`s sad to see all of this. But, Tiffanie, I`ve got to wonder if it was just Sherry`s mental illness. What do you say, Jacob?

STILLINGS: No, it wasn`t at all.

PINSKY: What was it?

STILLINGS: It wasn`t at all. I lived with my sister for numerous years. I grew up. My little nephew and my niece, I lived with her as a young man for many years, and I`ve -- from what she`s saying is not true. I`ve seen them eat well, you know --

PINSKY: OK, all right. OK. I want to give Cheryl a chance to ask something. Go ahead, Cheryl.

ARUTT: Well, I am just wondering, to get back with what`s motivating your niece -- what do you think is causing her to want to really kind of twist the knife? Do you think it`s that she didn`t get bailed out of jail? Do you think that she has these resentments and these wounds from before? Because this is such a big statement that she`s making here.

And another part of the question is also -- do you think she`d be doing this on her own or is she being shaped by the defense attorneys and kind of played for their purposes because she has this resentment?

PINSKY: Jacob, go ahead.

STILLINGS: Yes. All I would like to say is that I think it`s like a snowball effect. It starts off with a little problem, builds up as it goes along.

Her father and grandmother could actually give her more than her only single mother could give two children -- presents, special treats, whatever the case may be at the store. But as it goes along, I think it just builds up little by little.

And ultimately, I do believe now that she`s incarcerated on two different charges, two different counties, and she`s facing two different time sentences, I do believe that there is something maybe in the work.


STILLINGS: But guess what? I love them both. I love my niece. I love my sister.

PINSKY: I`ve got to remind our viewers that HLN and CNN can`t confirm any allegations against either Sherry or her daughter --

STILLINGS: Well, I can confirm it.

PINSKY: OK. Sam, your hand was up.

STILLINGS: I can confirm it.

SCHACHER: Jacob, I just want to know from you, what would you say to the people out there that do doubt your sister`s story, that do believe that, somehow, she`s involved in the killing of her son?

STILLINGS: I mean, where`s it going to go from here? Where`s it going to go from here? First, it started with my sister. Now that this is starting to pan out a little bit, now it`s the father.

Now that that`s starting to pan out a little bit, now it`s going to be somebody else. I mean, come on. This is my nephew that got murdered in cold blood. We`re losing sight. We`re getting side-tracked here.


STILLINGS: I mean, this is a baby that never said his first word. I never met him before -- second nephew that I haven`t seen in a long time.

PINSKY: I see you`re stricken, Patti, and I understand that feeling.

WOOD: Yes, yes. And you know, I see her in the courtroom. This mother is a victim. Her shoulders bear the weight of the world, her head is tilted in sadness.

All the classic victim nonverbal cues, that`s what she`s showing. She`s not showing any of the cues that would indicate any guilt.

PINSKY: OK. I`m against the clock, Patti. I`ve got to interrupt you. I`m sorry.

Jacob, thank you so much again for joining us.

I believe producers, do we have -- we have the biological father tomorrow, is that -- oh, he gets on the stand tomorrow, Jacob. I guess the biological father, we`ll hear from him tomorrow. So, that will -- yes, I see you rolling your eyes. More pain, I guess. Hopefully, we`ll talk to you more. You`re helping us understand this case. I`m going to have to stop you because I`m against the clock and remind everyone that new developments in the case of the teen missing for two years before anyone had reported her missing. Her adoptive parents appear now to have fled, sort of O.J. style.

And later, the sister of kidnapping and murder suspect James DiMaggio, there she is defending her brother. CNN`s Piers Morgan has the interview and will report directly to us tonight. He joins me after this.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He had done nothing to these kids or Erica, nothing!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Speculation continues to swirl around Sandy and Casey Parsons. They`re facing a national spotlight and tough questions about what happened to the teen.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s not missing. She`s at an aunt`s house.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Told investigators that Erica was with her grandmother, but police say that information didn`t pan out.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Completely safe and just living her life and having fun. She loves Nan.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But Carolyn parsons says she doesn`t believe her brother-in-law.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m in somebody`s nightmare, and they will not wake up and let me out.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Samantha Schacher, and our panel, Brian Copeland, Danny Cevallos, Crystal Wright, and Jenny Hutt. Fifteen-year-old Erica Parsons last season November of 2011. Her adoptive parents have been under a cloud of suspicion since July when she`d been reported missing by the stepbrother. Now, the FBI is involved and Erica`s biological mother has come forward.

David Spunt, a reporter with HLN affiliate, WBTV, interviewed Erica`s mom. David, what is the latest? What did she tell you and what do we know from this biological mother?

VOICE OF DAVID SPUNT, REPORTER, WBTV: Thanks for having me. Well, the biological mother is from this area. We`re just little bit north of Charlotte right now, but she`s been living in Louisiana for the past six months. She says she last saw Erica in January 2011 along with the adoptive parents. They had a meeting, kind of introduced Erica to her. She said there was some type of verbal agreement that Erica might possibly come live with her when Erica would turn 18 years old.

She says just a few days after that, she called Erica to try to start a relationship back up and then she says that Casey and Sandy Parsons, the adoptive parents, said that Erica was not interested. She said for the next year and a half, almost two years, she didn`t hear anything at all from Erica, then she got a call just July 30th, just last month, saying that Erica is missing.

This is just a bizarre case, because you know, people say the last time they saw Erica was the end of 2011, and then she was reported missing about two years later. So, the biological mother, Carolyn, is insisting that there`s foul play here.

PINSKY: OK. So, I was just wondering if she had any theory what was going on. So, she thinks something bad has happened. Thank you, David. Danny, I want to go out to you. The Parsons had already been, I guess, found to have committed a crime by having received state funds for Erica while she wasn`t living there. Why have they not been arrested for that?

DANNY CEVALLOS, ATTORNEY: They`re probably -- I can`t speak for the police, but they`re probably waiting until they have solid proof. They don`t want to make an arrest, because once you do, a number of different stopwatches begin, and they have -- the prosecution has to do certain things within certain amounts of time. There`s no statute of limitations on murder.

The other statutes they have to worry about are long enough that they can take their time, make sure they have what they need, and in fact, they can use an arrest on this lesser offense to extract possibly some confession from them. My guess is that`s at least one or part of their tactics, and it`s probably going to be a good one.

PINSKY: Jenny, no?

JENNY HUTT, ATTORNEY: OK. Dr. Drew, again, I just don`t get any of this. The adoptive mother actually said she was having a good time, so we didn`t hear from her because she didn`t feel like talking to us, she was doing her thing. If my 13-year-old goes to a friend`s house, it`s maybe a couple hours that we don`t speak. Come on.


CEVALLOS: Well, we have to stop using the regular family that we`re accustomed to as the standard here. The reality is the vast majority -- there are a huge number of American families that are a mess.

PINSKY: Crystal, now you come in.

CRYSTAL WRIGHT, CONSERVATIVE BLACKCHICK.COM: Right. I want to go to Danny. Danny makes a good point. Solid proof? Well, looks like a lot of solid proof. She was missing for two years. They claim that they dumped her off at grandma. Grandma was dead for five years.

PINSKY: Crystal, what`s the matter with us? What`s the matter? What`s wrong with us?

WRIGHT: What proof? I guess, they need a body? Now, they need a body. And the investigators found evidence that the child had been verbally and physically, Erica, abused.



WRIGHT: -- adoptive parents killed Erica, and the next thing we`re looking for is they have dog-sniffing -- what do you call the cadaver- sniffing dogs --


BRIAN COPELAND, BRIANCOPELAND.COM: You know, the thing we have to remember is, in America, everybody is innocent until proven guilty, but this isn`t a court of law. This is a talk show and they`re guilty. They did it. I mean, Stevie Wonder could see that they did it --

WRIGHT: Well, you said that about George Zimmerman, so, come on, Brian.


COPELAND: What about George Zimmerman? I`ll go back there. George Zimmerman`s guilty as hell, too.


COPELAND: But in terms of this -- that`s right, I still think George Zimmerman`s guilty, but in terms of this case --


COPELAND: More credible than you, sweetheart.

PINSKY: Come on, now, guys.

SCHACHER: OK. Dr. Drew, I have a question for you.


SCHACHER: Thank you. Yes, my question is for you. Are these parents that delusional where they think that they duped everybody where we actually believe them? I`m shocked! I`m dumbfounded.

PINSKY: This is, to me, this story says -- that`s why I thought Crystal would go off on how much this says about the decay of our family and our systems and how we fail children, and every time I think about this story, I think about how we have failed this young girl.


PINSKY: Regardless --

COPELAND: Where was social services? Where was social services?

PINSKY: They failed. We all failed. We fail children every day, and I think that`s really, really the core of so much of the problem that, Crystal, you talk about particularly.

WRIGHT: All the time.

PINSKY: We all talk about here. But listen, I`ve got to go.

Next, I`ve got the sister of the kidnapping and murder suspect, James DiMaggio, says she warned him, this woman, warned him about Hannah Anderson! She`s bad. Hannah Anderson bad? Come on, now. Piers Morgan here to discuss after this.



LORA DIMAGGIO, JAMES DIMAGGIO`S SISTER: In my heart of hearts, I think that Hannah, perhaps, got herself into a situation that she couldn`t get herself out of, and I do believe that my brother gave his life to protect her. I would like to remind you that at this point, my brother is still a suspect. He is not a killer. He is accused. My brother was one of the kindest people you`ve ever met in your life. The man that I know him to be, it doesn`t add up.


PINSKY: We are joined now by CNN`s own Piers Morgan. "Piers," reminder, can be seen at 9:00 p.m. eastern time, of course, on CNN. Piers, you interviewed Lora DiMaggio last night. She is the sister of James DiMaggio who allegedly kidnapped Hannah Anderson, killed the mother and brother. What do you think of her?

PIERS MORGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Well, it was a fascinating encounter, because she completely took the wind out of my sails right from the start of the interview by point blank denying that she believed her brother had committed the double murder or, indeed, had kidnapped an unwilling Hannah. So, it was really from that moment on very surprising.

She was very much, and if you look, there`s a lot more to this than meets the eye. I haven`t seen that evidence yet and I don`t trust Hannah Anderson.

PINSKY: But not trusting Hannah Anderson is one thing. There are a lot of people out there that question her participation in all of this. How can she deny what her brother did? Did it make sense to you?

MORGAN: Not really. I mean, certainly, any journalist who studies what the police have put out in terms of their report comes in the end to the conclusion that James DiMaggio preplanned all this, that he deliberately tortured and murdered the mother and little brother of Hannah Anderson and then set fire to the house in a prearranged, sort of booby trapped situation and then went off on this trip with Hannah Anderson, which he clearly planned.

That certainly would be my assessment of the facts as the police have released them. But I have also had just a little bit of concern about Hannah Anderson`s veracity in all this, because it`s always seemed to me a possibility that she was completely unaware of what he`d done to her mother and brother, but perhaps, she was more aware of the trip and less the kidnapping and more of an adventure as far as she was concerned.

PINSKY: But wouldn`t that still make her a victim of this guy`s sort of adult persuasiveness and mind control? And did his sister respond to any of those sorts of questions for you?

MORGAN: Well, to me, he remains a pedophile, whichever way you look at it. The girl`s just turned 16. And even though he`d taken her on a couple day trips to Malibu and so on, taking her into the middle of nowhere in Oregon is a completely different matter. That is an abduction whichever way you dress it up.

Now, what the argument was from his sister, Lora, was that she knew Hannah Anderson and didn`t recognize the young woman that we`d been seeing on the cameras in the last few days, That she was a very manipulative young person, that she set out deliberately to make herself attractive to her brother, et cetera, et cetera.

Now, she may be in complete denial, and certainly, I think there are aspects of what she said to me that seemed to me to be completely in denial, but there were other aspects I think ring consistent with other people`s concerns about whether Hannah Anderson went along willingly, perhaps, certainly for a large part of the trip.

PINSKY: Yes. Yes. And I know I`ve had panel members who have had similar concerns, and they will no doubt be very interested in what you have to say or report about Lora`s -- Lora DiMaggio`s comments. Piers, thank you so much. Again, "Piers" can be seen nine o`clock on CNN. We really appreciate you being here. This is your first visit with us and we are grateful. Thank you so much.

MORGAN: Not the last, Drew, I hope. Thanks very much for having me.

PINSKY: Samantha Schacher and the "Behavior Bureau" pick up, Crystal, Cheryl, Patti, Tiffanie, you all heard Piers` talk and his opinion, more of his opinion.


PINSKY: I`m wondering if I should start with Crystal and drop a little dynamite into this.


PINSKY: Let me play a tape first that I want you all to react to. Take a look at this.


DIMAGGIO: You know that the Hannah Anderson that I saw a few nights ago on the TV is certainly not the girl that stayed in my home three weeks prior to them disappearing. I remember very vividly telling my brother, she`s trouble. She`s going -- I said you need to watch out for that one, she`s trouble. She was, you know, she came into my home, was very gracious, she didn`t, you know, say thank you once. She had on extremely heavy eye makeup.


PINSKY: Tiffanie, your reaction.

TIFANNIE DAVIS HENRY, PH.D., PSYCHOTHERAPIST: I don`t even know how to say what I want to say nicely, but the thing that gets me is, of course, she isn`t the same girl that was in your home three weeks ago. A lot has happened in the last three weeks. And for her to insinuate that the fact that she had on makeup or didn`t say thank you means that she brought this all on, it`s really pathetic, it`s very desperate.

I think she`s very delusional. I think she wants to make sense of all this, as we all do, but to blame Hannah for wearing her eye makeup or that she may in some way have -- I just think it`s all wrong. I don`t like it at all.

PINSKY: OK. Cheryl.

CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., @CHERYLARUTT: Yes. Well, I agree. And, you know, I had a thought about when she said, oh, I went up to Jim and I said, you know, watch out, she`s trouble. If she did actually say this to her brother -- and I`m not even sure that she did -- but if she did, isn`t it possible she might have been picking up on her brother`s attraction to Hannah Anderson and that he was following her around and kind of obsessed with her and she was kind of saying, hey, brother --

PINSKY: Watch out. Interesting.

ARUTT: -- back off.

PINSKY: Interesting.


PINSKY: Crystal, I`m going to have you set off a little M-80 here and we`ll go to break. Go ahead, Crystal, and we`ll respond to you after the break. Go ahead.

WRIGHT: No, I mean, look, even Piers Morgan just says that he questions whether Hannah went along on the little road trip willingly. And I think what everybody is delusional about and nobody wants to face is, "A," lack of parenting. And why is it so strange for a 16-year-old to be more mature and sexually active beyond her years?

And I think that the one truth in what Jim`s sister is saying, that it`s quite possible -- you all don`t want to acknowledge this -- she wrote letters to Uncle Jim about problems she was having with mommy. Not normal. She texted Jim 13, 15 times about where to pick her up from cheer camp.

And, remember, when the people came up on her in, what is it, Idaho or wherever she was, she didn`t really run away. So, I think there`s a lot of missing pieces here.

PINSKY: All right.

WRIGHT: And I think what`s making everybody uncomfortable, nobody wants to go there and say that. That`s the problem.

PINSKY: All right, yes. I will say that Piers had it wrong. It was not Oregon, it was Idaho.

WRIGHT: Idaho.

PINSKY: But we`ll pick up, Crystal, your comments after the break. And before we do, I have Hannah Anderson`s real uncle. He will join me with his reaction to Uncle Jim`s sister and Crystal after this.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Samantha Schacher and the "Behavior Bureau." On the phone, I have Hannah Anderson`s uncle, David Braun. David, your reaction to Dimaggio`s sister.

VOICE OF DAVE BRAUN, HANNAH ANDERSON`S GREAT UNCLE: Well, I found Dimaggio`s interview very offensive on several fronts. First of all, he gave his life to save Hannah`s life, really? Why would he be saving Hannah`s life up in the mountains where she was forced to cover his car and carry his load up into the mountains?

This lady is the murderer`s family and they`re in denial. It`s an embarrassment to the public. She must think everybody`s stupid. She is entitled to her opinion, but the truth is, this deceptive traitor, James Lee Dimaggio, is a mass murderer, kidnapper, torturer, arsonist, and a rapist. These are the acts --

PINSKY: Dave, thank you. Dave, I appreciate it. I have to keep moving. I`m so sorry. I would love to talk to you some more and I hope you will join us again. And again, to each of the family members, we just -- our hearts go out to you. This has just been a horrible, horrible thing. I can`t imagine, Samantha, that the guy is anything but that. We`ve heard the uncle now. Crystal disagrees. What do you think, Sam?

SCHACHER: OK. I disagree with Crystal. Listen, even if at the end of the day --

WRIGHT: I`m shocked.

SCHACHER: -- If Hannah Anderson is demonstrating. Hold on.

WRIGHT: I know, right?

SCHACHER: Even at the end of the day, if Hannah is demonstrating questionable behavior, even if she did, even if she did have an inappropriate relationship with Dimaggio --

PINSKY: It`s on him.

SCHACHER: -- she`s still under age, yes!

PINSKY: You ran into Lora in the green room last night before the interview. What was your impression of her?

SCHACHER: Oh, wow, OK. So, this is just my first impression. I thought that her behavior was really odd, OK? And this was just my observation, but she came in with really big sunglasses. She was rather cold. I didn`t know who she was. I actually thought that this was some sort of a reality star, like somebody with self-entitlement.

And later when I found out it was her, I thought, OK, so, her behavior was maybe that of being uncomfortable, being really sad, but it was odd behavior, nonetheless. She never took off those black sunglasses inside.

PATTI WOOD, AUTHOR, "SNAP.": Can I speak to the audience of her behavior?

PINSKY: Yes. Patti, that`s who I wanted to go to next. Let`s have it.

WOOD: Yes, absolutely. During the interview, piers gave her ample opportunities, many opportunities to respond to the horror and specific details of what happened. And instead, she showed suppressed anger throughout the interview, great defiance, that suppressed anger, the pressed lips, what I call puppet mouth, where she sucked in her lips to suppress that anger.

And at times actually revealed her true opinion that the little revealing of she seduced -- tried to say seduced, almost said that Hannah seduced, but didn`t say it. She really didn`t actually show any remorse, any horror of what happened. Absolutely bizarre behavior.

PINSKY: Crystal, give us a parting shot to take. I`ve got two seconds.

WRIGHT: Yes, look, I agree. I think she`s in denial about Uncle Jim killing Hannah`s mom and her brother and then seducing Hannah.

PINSKY: Twenty seconds.

WRIGHT: But, at the same time, she does have truth about whether or not -- she raises a lot of questions about Hannah and whether or not Hannah was attracted to him. That`s all I`m saying. I never blamed her.

PINSKY: Who cares if Hannah`s attracted to him?


PINSKY: I`ve got to go, "Behavior Bureau." "Last Call" is next.


PINSKY: It is time for the "Last Call," and the "Last Call" tonight goes to me. I`m going to tell you about Israel Keyes. He is suspected of killing at least 11 people over a decade. He killed himself in jail. And now, his bizarre interrogation videos have been released. I want to show them to you. We`ll show you more tomorrow, but get a load of this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The whole process is, I`m getting a little bored with it, so.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re annoyed with that, how that he was handled. Quite frankly, I`m annoyed with you.


PINSKY: It gets bizarre. HLN is all over this story tomorrow night starting with Jane, and Nancy, and then I will be getting inside the mind of a serial killer. Sam, this is really interesting stuff. Psychopathy, we`re going to get into it deep.

SCHACHER: It`s chilling, Dr. Drew. He was so cold-blooded. And I find it fascinating that he almost took his life as like a last dig to the investigators.

PINSKY: Yes. Got to go, Sam. Thank you all for watching. "HLN After Dark" begins now.