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Judge Gives Rapist 30 Days; Trail Of A Serial Killer

Aired August 29, 2013 - 21:00   ET



DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Tonight, remember this guy? The judge who reduced the rapist`s sentence from 15 years to 30 days.

He apologizes for what he said about the victim, sort of.

G. TODD BAUGH, DISTRICT JUDGE: I`m not sure what I was attempting to say at that point, but it didn`t come out correct.

PINSKY: Our behavior sounds off.

Then, how a serial killer operates, how he hunts.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I thought I was smart, I would like them come to me.

PINSKY: And how he justified the death of 11 people and perhaps many, many more. Israel Keyes in his own words. It`s a rare look inside the mind of a murderer.

Let`s get started.


PINSKY: Good evening.

My co-host Samantha Schacher, host of "Pop Trigger" on the Young Turks Network.

We are talking about a 14-year-old girl raped by her 49-year-old teacher. The girl later commits suicide. A judge gives the rapist 30 days behind bars.

The sentence and the judge`s comments about the victim have outraged the victim`s mother and many of the public and my panel. And today, protests outside the courthouse calling for the judge`s resignation.

An on-camera apology from the judge himself, I want you take a look at it.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was floored. I thought there was a minimum sentence.

REPORTER: Fourteen-year-old Cherice Morales was a freshman at Billings Senior High School. Prosecutors say Rambold seduced her and began a month`s long sexual relationship.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This guy is a pedophile. He`s a pig.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stacey Dean Rambold was looking at 15 years in jail back in 2008, but a judge suspended almost his entire sentence.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This judge originally implied it is no big deal.

In court, Judge Baugh said Cherice Morales seemed older than her chronological age.

PINSKY: Her chronological age, Jessica, was 14. That`s her chronological age.

BAUGH: I`m not sure what I was attempting to say at that point, but it didn`t come out correct.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And that she was as much in control of the situation as the 49-year-old rapist.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s not probably the kind of rape that most people think about.

PINSKY: The kind of rape I think about is when I`m a grown man and sleep with a young girl. That`s rape.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, guess what? The girl killed herself. That`s a big deal in my book.


PINSKY: That`s right.

Jane and I will speak with the victim`s mom just ahead.

But, first my panel: Mark Eiglarsh, attorney at, attorney and Sirius XM host Jenny Hutt, attorney and CNN contributor Danny Cevallos, and HLN`s Lynn Berry.

Here is what the judge said in his attempt to explain his decision. He said, quote, "It`s probably not the kind of rape most people think about. It was n a violent, forcible, beat the victim rape like you see in the movies but it was a rape nonetheless."

LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST: A 49 year old man who has sex with a 14-year- old girl, whether she was kicking and screaming or not is sick and needs to be put behind bars.


PINSKY: And let`s remind ourselves -- this is not just a 49-year-old man.


PINSKY: Her teacher, somebody charged with a sacred obligation to protect and raise our children. Here is what he does. And the judge seems to back him up.

Now, the judge backtracked. He offered an apology. I`m all in favor of apologies guys and I want to hear what you think about it. By the way, is it not well, Jenny, you`re expressing outrage. But is it not the case that we want to elevate people`s understanding including the judge. Let`s take a look.


BAUGH: Ladies and gentlemen, in the Rambold sentencing, I made some references to the victim`s age and control. I`m not sure just what I was attempting to say at that point, but it didn`t come out correct.


PINSKY: There it is again. Jenny?

HUTT: Please. I have t just say something, Dr. Drew.

Here`s the thing. This is a child. I don`t care if this 14 year old seemed older and in control of the situation. I have a 13-year-old little girl who is wise beyond her ears and looks older, if anyone laid their hands on her, Dr. Drew, forget it.

You got to be kidding me. It`s not OK. This is not an OK sentence or mentality.

BERRY: And, Dr. Drew, people may not -- people --

PINSKY: Go ahead.

BERRY: People may not realize this judge had an opportunity to right the original wrong which was this victim committed suicide right before this was supposed to go to trial. Because of that the prosecution, didn`t have her testimony.

So, they had to strike a plea deal with this guy. He agreed to go to a sex offender program. He violated that deal. That`s why he was in front of this judge. He had the opportunity to give him a sentence that he should have gotten right from the start and he gave him 30 days.


PINSKY: Danny, I want to go to you. This judge takes the sentence from 15 years to 30 days. The guy has already failed his treatment program. I understand he had all kinds of excuses. They always do.

How can the judge do that?

DANNY CEVALLOS, ATTORNEY: Yes, I love how everyone is burning this judge in effigy. Let`s take a step back.

Remember, the prosecution originally allowed him to enter into a deferred agreement where he spent not 30 days, not two years but zero days in prison. So, if you want to grab your pitch forks and torches, townspeople, go after the prosecution. They`re the ones that originally agreed to give them a deferred adjudication. In other words, give him no prison sentence at all.

The only reason he was back in front of the judge is because he violated, not because he -- not because of the rape. The prosecution agreed to let him stay out of jail. So, I`m really as to why we`re not burning the prosecution in effigy.

Mark, anyone?

PINSKY: OK. All right. I`m gong to go to Mark --


SCHACHER: That is why I said he had t opportunity to right the wrong. He had the opportunity to right the original wrong.

PINSKY: This is a great chance for mark to go after the prosecution.

I had not thought of it that way. Danny has got a really good point here. Why didn`t they -- why did they let this guy get off with so little?

MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: OK. Danny is correct and so is everyone else.

First, Danny is correct in that the prosecutors cut him a deal because they had a challenge proving their case because his rape led to her suicide. So, there was an evidence problem. But now that it came back in front of the judge, he had the opportunity to evaluate the case, determine what he did and make an appropriate sentence.

And what happened here in my opinion was a miscarriage of justice because, as Aristotle has to find justice, like cases should be treated alike. And most judges I have practiced in front of would have launched this guy. The defendant won the legal lottery in this case.

SCHACHER: Yes. And, Dr. Drew, can I talk about his apology? Because I think it`s a joke.

I mean, listen -- actions speak louder than words. If he cared about this case he wouldn`t have sentenced his pedophile rapist teacher to 30 days.

PINSKY: Lynn, do you think this judge can lose his job over this? This protest in front of the courthouse today?

BERRY: Listen, the deal is it is up to him to step down. He is being reviewed by the judicial board. But he is up for reelection next year.

And I don`t know how many people at home vote for their judges, or go to the polls, but this is a case where he is up for reelection and this is a case of where people have to decide is this somebody -- does he make the right decisions that he should be on the bench?

PINSKY: Jenny, you`re the one I think is the most outrage here. But I want to ask you this one question. We move forward and look at this guy`s apology.

I -- you know, Danny talked about us getting our pitch forks out and were the townspeople, Frankenstein, we`re going to get the judge. I want to give the guy a chance to apologize and to right his wrong and to educate the public. Maybe it is only the prosecution that can make the sentence more intense than it has been.

Are you going to accept any apology from this guy?

HUTT: Look, Dr. Drew, if he become as changed man and realizes how he erred in his ways, OK. But I still think he should give right off into the sunset quietly and give up being a judge. Recuse yourself, step down, move on. This isn`t the right profession for you anymore.


HUTT: Wow, very powerful.

Mark, do you agree with that?

EIGLARSH: Yes. I think the people should vote for someone else who can articulate, if we believe this judge and he just misspoke, then I`d like a judge whose words reflect truly how he or she feels on the bench.

PINSKY: Danny, do you agree?

CEVALLOS: American history has taught us that you can be palliated (ph) in the White House and still keep your job and apologize and just move on. Dot step down. That`s what American history has taught us.

We don`t want you to step down. We want you to apologize, prostrate yourself before the gods and we will all move on. You can send naked pictures of yourself and tweet them and we will take you back.

Hasn`t anybody learned anything? Don`t --

HUTT: That`s different.

PINSKY: Different --


HUTT: You tweet a naked -- hold on -- you tweet a naked picture, you are not avoiding punishing someone who raped a girl. You are tweeting a picture of yourself and acting like a loser.

PINSKY: Mark, take it home.

EIGLARSH: Yes, listen. Unlike Bubba, he can`t balance the budget so that doesn`t apply. The bottom line is 30 days for this offense coupled with the words that he used that she is looking older, that`s inexcusable. Keep it to yourself.

PINSKY: Let me wrap it up a little bit. Yes, not only that -- if a kid is acting out sexually and becoming provocative, that is a kid in trouble and one that needs our protection. Adults have to set boundaries with and take care of even more carefully.

Next, thank you, panel.

The rape victim`s mother is here with the reaction to the sentence and the judge`s apology as well. And there she is, joining us. Thank you.

And later on, we have a serial killer named Israel Keyes. He is suspected of murdering at least 11 people, maybe even more.

Behavior bureau is going inside this guy`s mind.



AULIEA HANLON, VICTIM`S MOTHER: I expected him to go to jail. He raped my daughter and he needs to go to jail.

REPORTER: In court, Judge Baugh said Cherice Morales seemed older than her chronological age.

HANLON: She was 14 chronologically and that`s what is relevant.

BAUGH: I`m not sure just what I was attempting to say at that point, but it didn`t come out correct.

HANLON: How could she be in control of anything? He broke the law, he confessed and he got to walk way


PINSKY: Reasonable mom.

Back with my co-host Samantha Schacher. Jenny, Mark, Danny, Lynn are still with us.

We are talking about the teen who`d been raped by her teacher. The teen then later committed suicide. I don`t know about you guys. I`d make a connection.

On the phone is Cherice`s mom, Auliea.

Auliea, first of all, let me just speak on behalf of everybody here. That we are so sorry for this tragedy.

Can you tell us -- it is such a disgusting story. The connection between the rape and the suicide, how come the judge didn`t make that connection?

HANLON (via telephone): You know, I`m not really sure. But I`ll tell you with, you know, the whole media explosion, I have faith again in humans. The judge was wrong. I don`t know how he didn`t make the connection. I have no idea.

PINSKY: Auliea, if he offers an apology, a real apology. He seems to be trying. But would you be willing to accept an apology? A complete apology from the judge?

HANLON: Yes. They say forgiveness is the key, right?

PINSKY: Right.

All right. Now, Mark, the judge said he listened to recorded statements from Cherice, that is Auliea`s daughter, before the suicide and that somehow helped him make the decision. I`m concerned about that part, Mark. And, Danny, I`m going to have you ring on this, too.

He didn`t seem to consult with psychiatric experts. He just sort of listen to the tape and went, yes, no connection there. How can he do at?

EIGLARSH: Yes, he can do that because he can do that. He is the guy wearing the black polyester and we all bow down to him, and he makes whatever decision he wants. What I want to know from the mother is whether the prosecutors prior to giving that very lenient plea bargain, which he ultimately violated, did they go to her and explain what they were going to do and then give the reasons why they were being so lenient initially?

PINSKY: Auliea, did the prosecutor speak to you in that way?

Is she still there? We lost the connection.

All right. Danny, I`m going to let you respond to what I had asked about the fact that he didn`t seem to contemplate this decision or get any sort of input on it.

CEVALLOS: Well, a couple of things there. First of all, Montana has very lenient sentencing guidelines. But beyond that, like Mark said, this guy is the judge and he has that discretion. And the reality is, as sad as the suicide is, he cannot as the defendant be charged with the suicide.

It`s not a homicide case. It`s an unfortunate consequence. However, suicide is an independent act.

And if police believe they can charge him with involvement somehow in that, believe me, they would have. So, as much as the judge can consider it, it really shouldn`t have factored that much into sentencing.

And I know that`s heartbreaking to hear. But that unfortunately is the law. If you don`t like it, talk to your legislature.

PINSKY: I wonder if --

EIGLARSH: No, Danny, it can be used -- hold on -- it can be used as an aggravator, like this was so traumatic t her that she wound up killing herself. But while you can`t charge him with that crime, this was such an impact on her that it led to her own demise. The judge could absolutely have factored that in and most judges have in my 20 years I have seen.

PINSKY: I wonder if any of the women on my panel --

CEVALLOS: It is absolutely an aggravator. Ultimately --

PINSKY: Danny, we have this terrible delay tonight. And I`m sure our viewers are aware of how this is affecting us.

But, Lynn, do you have a question for Auliea?

BERRY: I think that there is a bigger -- do we have Auliea back?

PINSKY: We do.

BERRY: OK. Auliea, you know, there have been comments made about your daughter, that she in some way looked older than she was. I think there is a discussion to be had about girls because they wear short shorts. We heard in the Hannah Anderson case, because they may show a provocative picture of themselves. They are disconnecting the fact that these are 14- year-old girls and they are not old enough to make the decisions that people are criticizing for making even if it is a consensual relationship. And I just want to ask you, as a mother, put into context for people that she was just a girl.

PINSKY: A 14-year-old girl -- Auliea.

HANLON: Exactly. The idea that she is older than her age is offensive. She is 14.

PINSKY: Yes. By the way, let me, as a physician -- Auliea, I got to back you up. As a physician, there is no such thing as somebody`s older than their age. Unless you have aperjuria (ph), and even then, your brain is not older than your age is, your body is.

You`re not older than your age no matter how you act. That is the thing we know about people these days.

HANLON: Exactly.

PINSKY: So, Auliea, listen, our heart goes out to you, my dear. We got your back on this one. I want to give the judge every opportunity to apologize. I really -- I hope he does. I hope he learns. I hope the public learns from his apology. I don`t have high hopes but I am relieved to hear that you have faith in humanity again, my dear.

HANLON: Oh, faith in humanity, no faith in justice.

PINSKY: Well -- Mark, you just shot a dart right through Mark`s heart, I`m afraid.

HANLON: Sorry.

PNSKY: It`s all right.

Next up the behavior bureau judges the judge and the teacher who admitted raping his teenage student.

And later, a rare look inside the mind of a serial killer. How could he be a loving father worried about his children and a serial killer?



BAUGH: In the Rambold sentencing, I made references to the victim`s age and control. I`m not sure just what I was attempting to say at that point, but it didn`t come out correct.


PINSKY: Sure did not.

Back with my co-host, Samantha Schacher and the behavior bureau.

We are talking about the teen who had been raped by her teacher and then later committed suicide.

Jenny Hutt is still with us. Joining us criminologist Casey Jordan, clinical and forensic psychologist Cheryl Arutt, and our human lie detector, Janine Driver, author of "You Can`t Lie to Me."

Now, I want you to look at the judge`s apology or some part of it. Let`s take a look.


BAUGH: What I said was demeaning to all women, not what I believe in, and irrelevant to the sentencing. I owe all of our fellow citizens an apology.


PINSKY: So, Casey Jordan, I hear he is trying to apologize. I`m not quite there yet. I want to give him that chance to apologize.

I`m into apologies. I like that. I want people to have that opportunity. But I`m not sure he went all the way.

CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: No, the words came out of his mouth. There was nothing convincing about what he said. And the person he needs to apologize to is unfortunately dead. The bottom line is he`s saying the right things because he probably has someone PR spinning him and saying, if you want to keep your job, this is something you need to do. But the truth is he says he didn`t believe these things, but the words came out of his mouth and it resulted in a young girl taking her life -- a 14-year-old girl -- who couldn`t live with being blamed as the victim of a crime by not the society but a judge.

PINSKY: Casey, what should he say? What should his apology include in your opinion?

JORDAN: It should start with the resignation in my opinion, because that is an action that you can take seriously. Maybe, it is time for this man with his outmoded perceptions to actually get off the bench, and not just parrot words that he hears, but actually believe in them. I don`t know what more it would take besides this young woman -- this girl took her life because she could not stand the shame that he put upon her by basically saying she contributed to the assault that was put upon her by this teacher.

And the minute that you give her the tiniest amount of blame because of how she looked or how she behaved, you detract from the culpability for the rapist. So, you don`t even engage in that. You just don`t even go there.

PINSKY: I see lot of nodding heads. But, Cheryl, help people understand. Every time I say kids are acting out sexually or kids being provocative sexually, kids act out when they are in mental distress. How do we get people to understand that those are the ones we need to treat the most carefully?

CHERYL ARUTT, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, Dr. Drew, I think you have a really great sense of the responsibility that adults and particularly adult men have to behave as adults. What Casey Jordan was talking about is rape culture. We live in a society, unfortunately, still where rape is the only crime where we tend to judge culpability based upon what the victim did or what the victim didn`t do and blaming the victim unfortunately. It`s still rampant, especially with people misjudges age.

We don`t say when someone steals or robs a bank, oh, well, you know, of course, they were tempted. That money looked really good. You know, we don`t gauge things by that.

And this poor girl was ostracized at school. She was blamed. This causes other victims not to want to forward. And this is really devastating.

In his words, his apology, which obviously some attorney wrote for him. He says he apologizes to all his fellow citizens. That may just be a male word to mean all citizens. But I don`t think that is an accident. I don`t think he finds women as full society members.

PINSKY: Janine, we`re looking again at the footage of this judge. What do you see in his body language?

JANINE DRIVER, HUMAN LIE DETECTOR: There are two insincere behavioral patterns here that are screening hot spots. Number one, the judge, it looks like it is his baseline, Dr. Drew, because even when we see him in court, he has his head tilted to the side.

But when you want to apologize and your head is tilted to the side, we don`t take you seriously. We want your head on straight. We say, we got a good head on his shoulders, her head is on straight. When we apologize and we have our head tilted to the side, it`s only half hearted. So, we don`t take you seriously. That`s number one in the behavioral pattern.

Number two behavioral pattern, Dr. Drew, is we see eye blocking, this facial blocking after he apologizes and says. You know, I don`t know what I was trying to say at that moment, he does this long, closed eyes. When we do that, it indicates deception or lack of sincerity. So, right out of the gate, we see this behavioral pattern that screen a lack of sincerity and we just don`t believe him.

SCHACHER: Yes, she was --

PINSKY: This guy -- this teacher had a history warned in 2004 not to touch girls. Yes, he had a long history.

HUTT: To deal with a problem.

PINSKY: And that he was sent to participate in a treatment program, must have been some sort of -- Casey, do you have any sense of what the program was, a sexual diction program or something of that sort you think?

JORDAN: I don`t know enough about the discipline. A lot of them get able tested and they actually, you know, take an interest inventory of where their interest lies. If he is actually testing on an able scale that he is attracted to young, for instance, females only between the ages of 12 and 15 or something, usually hebephiles, then he would probably go into particular therapy that would teach him to stay away from that, because you`re not going to cure the attraction. You are going to try to control it.

The first thing in my mind is that he should never have been teaching children if the problem had been identified.



JORDAN: He doesn`t belong in a classroom.

PINSKY: Yes. And, Sam, it`s like any other addiction. When people have the sort of behaviors that they can`t control and you try to treat it, when they become dismissive over the people that are trying to help them when they are less than perfect so to speak in their program, we know that means they are not interested. You have to take it very, very seriously.

SCHACHER: Yes, absolutely. But I will say one thing that I am happy to see. I`m happy that the public is outraged. We are seeing the petition being circulated, asking for his resignation. We`re seeing protests.

So, I am happy to see people advocate to get him off the bench.

PINSKY: Now, next --

HUTT: Dr. Drew --


PINSKY: Yes, Jenny, finish up. Say it again?

DRIVER: I just wanted to say that we the judge who beat up his daughter and totally justified it? We see these behavioral patterns here, too, with justifying this terrible, terrible decision this judge made. And I think it`s time that judges are held accountable for their decisions and their actions personally as well.

PINSKY: Thank you, panel.

Next up, Israel Keyes killed for 10 years and did not get caught until he made a big mistake. And later, we`re going inside the mind of this notorious serial killer, with our behavior bureau. Don`t go away. You don`t want to miss this.


PINSKY: Welcome back. My co-host, Samantha Schacher. And tonight, we have a rare first-hand look at a serial killer comes from 40 hours of taped interviews in which he practically had the FBI begging for more information. He was associated with many other killings possibly. You`ll hear Israel Keyes in his own words about this decade-long killing spree. Take a look.


PINSKY (voice-over): Israel Keyes was a handy man by day and a serial killer by night. He admitted to three murders making the FBI work for every crumb of information.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We tried to pin him down on a number, he would say less than 12, but then, there were things that he would say that led us to believe that by less than 12, he simply meant 11. And so, he was quick to correct us in interviews if we had something wrong.

PINSKY: Most of his victims were strangled, chosen at random. Men, women, young, old, it did not matter. He wanted that knowledge to be his tightly guarded secret.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Initially, I thought there were ways that I could manipulate the situation this case, all the related cases for my benefit and on my timeline by withholding information.

PINSKY: Israel Keyes killed himself before he revealed everything. The FBI has released the interrogation tapes hoping you can help solve other murders he may have committed.


PINSKY (on-camera): How many? Only Israel Keyes knows. Back with us, Mark Eiglarsh, Jenny Hutt, Casey Jordan, and HLN`s Lynn Berry. Joining us also, Molly Kaneski, she`s a journalist who may know more than just about anyone on this case. Molly, can you briefly tell us how this man selected his victims and how he caught them in his web?

VOICE OF MOLLY KANESKI, JOURNALIST: Yes. He targeted people in secluded areas. He discussed in the tapes that he specifically looked at boat launches, trails, anywhere that you could get people by themselves where there would be no witnesses to their abductions.

PINSKY: And how did he have some sort of pattern to the killings?

KANESKI: There really wasn`t, and that`s part of the reason why he flew under the radar for as long as he did was that he just did not have any kind of commonality between victims like say Bundy (ph) who targeted obviously a very specific type of person.

PINSKY: And watch this as Keyes reacts to investigators who say they are digging for bodies in a certain area. Remember, he was not specifics to these guys about where to look.

KANESKI: Correct.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I almost feel guilty.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Costing the taxpayers a lot of money to find them.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could just kept my mouth shut.



PINSKY: Lynn, it`s almost --


PINSKY: This guy is laughing at sending the FBI on a chase and costing taxpayers money for his victims.

BERRY: It`s chilling now because we know the context. What`s interesting his family and friends said they had absolutely no idea. Here`s how this guy operated. He would fly all across the country and go dark. He`d turn off his cell phone, and for three to four weeks, he would go on these killing sprees and basically just lure victims into all these secluded areas.

How he got caught was he made one mistake after many, many years of doing this. He used one of his victim`s ATM cards. The bank got his tag number on surveillance camera. He then was pulled over for speeding a week later. The officer noticed he had an Alaska license, called for backup. When they opened up his car, they hit the murder jackpot.

In his car, he had evidence of the wazoo (ph). That`s it. They had Israel Keyes. He knew he was pinned for at least one murder because that victim`s ATM card and other items from that victim were in his car. So, he just started talking, but he didn`t go all the way. And that`s where the FBI needs people`s help.

PINSKY: Mark, I guess the only potential bright spot in all of this is perhaps if people have missing persons in their lives, they can sort of notify FBI. Is there anything to be gained from this?

MARK EIGLARSH, SPEAKTOMARK.COM: The only thing I see, the only bright spot first is that Lynn just said up the wazoo, so that`s a positive.


EIGLARSH: Regarding this case, the other thing is that he`s dead. You know, to me, forgive me, but that`s a positive. That, you know, HLN is denied the ratings, but you know, hey, you know, we don`t have to put the families through this, the expense on the taxpayers and he`s no longer on this Earth and can no longer ever escape like Ted Bundy did to harm more people.

PINSKY: Yes. Thank you, guys. Many of these panels are going to stay with me. We`re going to speak next to a woman whose own father was a serial killer. She`s here with me. We`ll have the "Behavior Bureau."

And later, the Keyes` family pastor, I believe, he spoke at the funeral, joins me with an inside look at the killer`s family. Back after this.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, I don`t plan on being around a whole lot longer, but it would really be a concern to me is you know, my kid is going to be around. I don`t want her to like type my name in the computer and have it pop up. You know, I already know stuff is going to come up. I know that. I just try to minimize that at this point, I guess.


PINSKY: Time again for the "Behavior Bureau." My co-host, Samantha Schacher. Joining us, Melissa Moore. Her father had murdered eight women in the 1990s, and since that time, she`s corresponded with the families of more than 300 serial killers. She is the author of "Shattered Silence: The Untold Story of a Serial Killer`s Daughter."

Melissa, Keyes had a daughter with his former girlfriend. He seemed to be concerned about her in that tape we just saw. I think people have difficulty understanding how a guy can go cold bloodedly kill people and then also be concerned about how his daughter might perceive him.

MELISSA MOORE, FATHER WAS A SERIAL KILLER: Right. It is confusing. It`s confusing to the family member as well, because for me, for example, my dad would tuck me in like a burrito. He would read me a bedtime story and then go find his next victim. So, I mean, I`m still coming to terms with how could live this double life.

And as I talk to other family members of serial killers, they, too, are trying to come to terms with how are they able to kiss away their owies (ph) and then find victims as well. When I talk to these family members, I mean, they`re just as clueless as the rest of society as to how they could live this double life.

PINSKY: Casey, let`s get into what this is, what psychopathy is, the serial killers. It is -- you know, people imagine that there must be somebody comes from an abusive childhood. That`s not necessarily the case with this syndrome. It`s more of a brain problem, is it not?

CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: It all depends. I mean, we have to realize there are a number of different typologies. And the ones that are caught most often are the ones with brain problems or the visionary ones who are truly psychotic because they`re so disorganize they get caught early on.

But the power control killers, even more so than the hedonistic lust or even the mission oriented one, and this guy is the poster child for power and control. They are very organized, very powerful, very logical, and that`s part of their power. That`s how they get away with it. This guy, of all the people that I studied, doesn`t really have a pattern.

And that`s how he was able to go on for at least ten or 12 years without being caught. He knew what the police would look for and he did the exact opposite.

PINSKY: Is it not the case -- one more time, Casey, that there`s often a weird sexual component to this. This guy was seeing prostitutes and things as well. Is that --

JORDAN: Right.


JORDAN: OK. Again, that`s going to be your hedonistic lust. Yes. But I don`t think that was his primary motivation. I truly think it was the power and control, and it`s proved by his suicide. That was the ultimate act of power.

PINSKY: Janine, what`s your take on this guy?

JANINE DRIVER, HUMAN LIE DETECTOR: Well, I find him to be very interesting because he doesn`t blame his childhood, Dr. Drew. He doesn`t blame his mental status. He doesn`t blame getting beaten as a kid. And we hear him say in that last statement about my kid, I, I, I, my daughter, my kid, I,I, I. This is taking responsibility which is very interesting, because often we`ll see with criminals or someone who`s wiggling out of some type of deception.

Hey, you know, you feel sorry when you hurt someone. When someone says you, Dr. Drew, they are avoiding taking responsibility. When they say I or we or my daughter, they`re taking ownership. So, I find this to be incredibly fascinating. And, I believe genuinely, he has this love for his daughter and is taking responsibility is really, really quite interesting.

We often will see the yous. You might feel sorry. You might do something that you regret. When someone says you, they are not answering your question.

PINSKY: Melissa, it seems like this guy --


PINSKY: Yes. Go ahead, because I think this guy is similar to your father situation, is he not?

MOORE: Oh, yes, very similar in so many different -- in so many ways. I see that he tortured animals. I see the power control. I mean, even just like his escape route. I mean, my dad, he used to talk about his escape route. And I didn`t know -- I mean, looking back now. I`m 34 and I go back and I think about all of the things that my dad used to say and it`s almost cryptic.

You know, I think of like -- for example, we drive by prisons and he would honk and say, you know, someday, I`m going to be there and it`s not so bad. They give me, you know, three meals a day and I`ll be taken care of. It`ll be easy. And you know, normal dads don`t drive and honk by prisons.

But now, I look back and think that was his escape route. I mean, he was addicted to killing. He knew it was going to end sometime. And, I listened to the tapes and I noticed that he was talking about his end route was he thought a shootout with police or -- and so, since that didn`t happen, he took his own life. So, it`s power and control.

And my dad is still about power and control even to this day. That`s why when I have to -- when I want to have communication with my dad I haven`t lately, it`s still power and control with him, and me, it`s just a cerebral (ph) game. I have to mentally prepare myself that he wants to control me. And I have to brace myself for that.

Also, I wanted to make a note that when he went to prison, he still was trying to be a provider and a dad to me. He would try to give me paintings to sell murder memorabilia out there to take care of myself. So, I think that`s kind of ironic and kind of weird, too.

PINSKY: It is weird. All right. Cheryl, talk a little bit about how psychopaths behave as if. They sort of mimic many of them, and I know Casey break some -- categories, but we sort of associate with psychopathy this behaving in the way they think somebody`s emotions are supposed to manifest.

CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., @CHERYLARUTT: Well, this split and this double life is very hard for most of us to get our minds around, particularly, because we expect other people to basically think and feel the way most humans do. And psychopaths really don`t. This is a power and control kind of guy who really -- you know, I don`t think we should make too much about him taking responsibility.

Yes, he took responsibility, but that`s because he`s proud of what he did. He wants to take responsibility because this kind of guy gets off on getting away, outsmarting, the con, being able to do all this stuff makes him feel like a proud mastermind.

And the split where you have this other part that can compartmentalize caring about, let`s say, a daughter who he sees as an extension of himself or being able -- you know, we have people who commit genocide and then go home to their families and pet, their puppies and tuck their kids in. It really is possible to create this total split.

PINSKY: OK. This compartmentalization. Sam.

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Dr. Drew, OK, if you`re aware of the signs early on like he knew early on that he was different, are these people retrievable? Are they always going to be serial killer? That`s scary.

PINSKY: Let`s take a break and I will have -- let`s ask the panel. Show up hands right now. Does anybody believe this kind of thing is treatable? Show of hands? Yes, treatable.

DRIVER: Treatable?

SCHACHER: Not treatable. Once a serial killer always a serial killer.

PINSKY: Well, needs to be contained. I mean, it`s a social problem. Casey, do you have ideas on that one?

JORDAN: Yes. How do we know how many people have these urges and manage to control them on a daily basis? But once they do the first killing and I`ve interviewed dozens of these guys and some women, they really just get this whole kind of WTF notion of I want to get my spankings worth. If I`m going to get tagged for this and go to prison for the rest of my life or be executed, I want to have as much fun as I can have.

PINSKY: This is a population I can`t get my head around. My head just spins. All right. We got to keep going. Sam, I`m with you.

Next up, I`ve got the pastor who gave the sermon on Israel Keyes memorial service. He`s here. He`ll with the "Behavior Bureau" after this.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Like I say, I would have preferred to wait until they found the bodies in Vermont, but it sounds like that can be a while.

Then we can move onto the New York trip that -- I mean, you guys already have, I`m sure, quite a bit of information on it. You probably have more than I remember at this point. I mean, except certain details



PINSKY: Disgusting. Back with my "Behavior Bureau" and my co-host, Samantha Schacher. Joining us now, Pastor Jacob Gardner. He gave the sermon at Israel Keyes` memorial service and he`s helping Keyes` mother write a book about her son`s life. Now, Jacob, your -- his mother had told you there were some troubling signs early on. I`ve got very limited time. I`m wondering if you can give me a brief overview of what she observed.

JACOB GARDNER, KEYES` FAMILY PASTOR: Yes. It`s good to talk to you, Drew. The signs actually were very limited. Growing up, there wasn`t much to be seen until about the age of 15. And about the age of 15, he had gone and built a log cabin in the woods, a little up from their house. At this point started made an antenna and brought a battery up there and started tuning in to different radio stations and different things.

And about this time, it seems that he left a lot of the morals, because that`s about as much as they had. They didn`t have much religion, true religion, but they had a lot of morals, and he began to --

PINSKY: What did he do? Did he torture animals? Did he act out in ways that were really concerning to the mother?

GARDNER: No. At that point, there is actually no signs. You know, he had said in these interviews with the FBI that he was actually two people and he really was. There was actually no sign. Very little signs at all until recently.

PINSKY: Got it. Jacob, thank you. Casey, what do you make of this notion of him being two people or his sense that he was two people?

JORDAN: Well, the fractured identity is a theory, but it really just comes many people say, you know, it`s very different than disassociated identity disorder which people think is --

PINSKY: Yes, of course. Right.

JORDAN: It`s really that he`s playing two roles. He has the normal role. He`s very socially aware. He knows the difference between right and wrong and then he has a fantasy world. And who knows how many fantasies he played out that we will never really know the actual number of victims he had. And this is a guy who also committed arson, burglaries, robberies, murders, rape, anything he wanted to do, he did it.


PINSKY: Of course, but that`s the sign that usually they have early. Melissa, did your father talk about having two identities, sort of?

MOORE: Yes. He said that nobody really knew him and he did talk about different fantasies he had but with us kids. I mean, it started to blur the lines, like, I mean, he had no filter. So, around us kids, he`d start talking about explicit details of what he would do with women. And he objectified women. And being a woman growing up with a dad like that, I mean, I started to feel like an object myself. I mean, it got a little -- it was an odd childhood.

PINSKY: Cheryl, take me home.

ARUTT: Well, I think this really shows us that we never really, really know who we`re dealing with, that that there are some people out there who look and seem normal on the outside who really have something terrible going on.

PINSKY: Thank you, panel. Got to go. "Last Call" is next.


PINSKY: Great job this week. Samantha Schacher, "Last Call" goes to you.

SCHACHER: Thank you, Dr. Drew. I hate the fact that the serial killers are living amongst us under radar.

PINSKY: See you next time.