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Elementary School Principal a Murderer?; Teen Guilty Of Shooting Baby In Face; Oh Miley

Aired September 3, 2013 - 21:00   ET



DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, Miley Cyrus` first public comment since twerking her way into the national conversation. She says she wanted attention, wanted her moment, wanted to make history. Our behavior bureau is here with some historic observations.

Plus, Ms. Ali is back to weigh in on the stroller baby murder conviction.

And is a beloved elementary school principal a murderer? Police say yes.

Let`s get started.


PINSKY: Good evening.

My co-host is Samantha Schacher, host of "Pop Trigger" on the Young Turks Network.

Coming up, Samantha, I know you`re excited about this, Ms. Ali is back. There she is gorgeous as ever. Can`t wait to talk to her.

But first -- thank you, my dear -- Todd Chance was found shot to death, his body dumped in an orchard field. Police arrested there by his side, this woman, a beloved elementary school principal and Chance`s wife of 17 years.

Leslie Chance not been charged. Arraignment today was delayed as the investigation continues. I want you to watch this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Elementary school principal Leslie Chance accused of murdering her husband.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Leslie Chance is responsible for Mr. Chance`s shooting death.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s been described as smart, hard working, well liked.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A fun loving, caring, dedicated elementary school --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A principal accused of pumping her husband full of holes and dumping his body in a field.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are almost certain the person responsible is his wife.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His car was found 20 miles away.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We do believe she is the person who drove his vehicle to that neighborhood. As far as the motive, we really don`t know what the motive is at this point.


PINSKY: Police are certain, huh?

Well, joining me to discuss Crystal Wright, Danny Cevallos, Lynn Berry, and Anahita Sedaghatfar.

Joining me first by phone is Stephanie Elam.

Why the delay? Why is there a doubt? They sounded so certain in that tape we just listened. Not so much now, huh?

STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Dr. Drew, they sounded certain this afternoon earlier when we also talked to them out there in Bakersfield.

But what we do know now is that the district attorneys declined to file formal charges saying that they wanted to turn it back to the department for them to do additional investigation. That`s what they wanted to know. Now that there`s no real charges against her, she`s free to go. She`s going to get out and walk today. She finally got a lawyer today too. That wasn`t there.

So, an interesting development here and we don`t even know now how long it could be or if she`ll be charged again. Just an interesting twist in this case when the police talked about it initially, sounded like it was an open and shut case from the get go.

PINSKY: Stephanie, thank you. Danny, police were confident they got the woman that`s responsible. They literally said on camera Leslie Chance is responsible for Mr. Chance`s shooting death. They get it wrong?

DANNY CEVALLOS, ATTORNEY: Welcome to the cat and mouse game of police procedure. Remember, once you charge a defendant, you can literally hear a -- well figuratively hear a stopwatch of a number of different timelines that the government has to provide certain constitutional protections. So it always is to the police`s benefit if they can catch and release. If there isn`t enough evidence at this point, then what happened is the district attorney kicked it back down to the police or the sheriff`s department, to come up with more evidence that will withstand a grand jury or withstand an indictment and be a good indictment.

PINSKY: But I get catch and release. Anahita, was that sort of routine to go into the public going "we got our man, we got the woman, she`s responsible." I get they`re going to hold her for awhile. But why all that public assuredness?

ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, ATTORNEY: Of course, I was a little bit perplexed by that to Dr. Drew. I mean, obviously, police and D.A.s are always going to be confident in their cases.

But I agree. I agree this has now become a very high-profile case. We`re talking about it in the media. We`re covering it.

And they want to make sure they have their case tight. They want to make sure they have all of their evidence. The world is watching.

It`s not uncommon that things like this happen and it could be that they will still charge her. You know, so, we don`t know.

PINSKY: I`m going to interrupt you. Crystal is laughing at what Anahita said. What`s funny about this?

CRYSTAL WRIGHT, CONSERVATIVEBLACKCHICK.COM: Well, I mean, Anahita, come on. The world is not watching this case. I mean, I think Danny is right.

SEDAGHATFAR: It`s all over the media.

WRIGHT: Remember, the world is not watching. Sorry. I mean, the sad part about America is nobody`s shocked anymore that this woman could possibly have taken matters into her own hands saying I don`t like my husband, I`m going to off him.

But back to what Danny said. I don`t think we should be shocked here. I think this is about the case making sure it`s airtight. And remember, she -- they just delayed the arraignment. And Danny can explain this probably better than I can because he`s the lawyer. I mean, it`s about making sure we`re gathering enough evidence so that we can nail this woman.

PINSKY: I get that.

WRIGHT: So I don`t think this is --


SEDAGHATFAR: That`s more so in high-profile cases.

WRIGHT: I don`t think this is high-profile.

SEDAGHATFAR: This has been all over the newspapers. We`re covering it on Dr. Drew`s show.

WRIGHT: It wasn`t in "The Washington Post." It wasn`t in "The Wall Street Journal." It`s not all over --

SEDAGHATFAR: Prosecutors need to make sure when all eyes are on them they have a tight case before they go charging someone with first degree.

WRIGHT: That`s what I said. That`s not unusual.

PINSKY: Lynn, though, you`re nodding the most. What`s up here?

LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST: Well, there`s something we don`t know here. Police came out and they said in local news they have a witness, they have the murder weapon, they have a timeline. That seemingly all leads to a point that they were certain of this.

PINSKY: All right.

BERRY: And, Anahita, I think you make a good point. Every single morning show had this in your -- when you`re on the "Today" show and "Good Morning America" --

WRIGHT: That`s not necessarily news. That`s not necessarily news.


PINSKY: Hold on. I`ve got to stop you. Lynn brought up this tape. I want to show you the tape.

They say, the police say that Leslie this principal dumped the husband`s body, then drove 11 miles, ditched the car in a residential neighborhood and a witness saw her leaving the car. Look at this.


WITNESS: She parked the car and just left it. I figured it was a stolen vehicle. She never even looked back. She just got out and left.


PINSKY: So somebody got out and left, but that doesn`t mean it`s her, does it?

WRIGHT: Well, no. But if it`s an eyewitness, you`re going to dismiss that?

SCHACHER: OK. Here`s the thing though. As Lynn stated earlier, I mean, the police have the murder weapon. There`s an eyewitness. There`s a lot of evidence and they said with all certainty that they believe that she is the one that committed the murder.

PINSKY: They were. Not anymore.

SCHACHER: That doesn`t make sense. How can they just go ahead and switch like that?

WRIGHT: They didn`t say that.

SCHACHER: They did. They did, Crystal.

WRIGHT: No, they didn`t. They didn`t say they didn`t think she was not the murderer anymore.

SCHACHER: You`re right about that.

WRIGHT: They didn`t say that. They just said -- I mean, come on, guys. Let`s not misrepresent the facts. They released her and delayed the arraignment.

PINSKY: Hold on. Yes, I was going to say they can still charge her.

SEDAGHATFAR: Absolutely.

PINSKY: But, Danny, after they come out and say we got the killer, they have had a change of heart when they then let her go, have they not?


CEVALLOS: Yes. Consider this. Certainly she`s not going to be allowed to leave town any time soon. And she shouldn`t think this case is over.

What`s going on is that imagine this, imagine if they charged her and they simply didn`t have the evidence at this time. And imagine if it went to a preliminary hearing were there`s a risk they can`t show probable cause. That means 51 percent likely she committed a crime and she was involved. Imagine the egg on the face of the prosecution if --

PINSKY: No, we get that.

CEVALLOS: -- kicked out in a preliminary state of this proceeding. What we don`t know is there must be some fact, some element we`re not aware of that they just don`t quite have yet.

PINSKY: And I`m saying because of what they`ve said so strongly in the press already, they already have egg on their face. They shouldn`t have been so sure about having this poor woman. She may be the lovely woman everyone says she is. He may have run across God knows what.

I mean, it`s still unclear what`s going on here, and people`s reputation are being really scrutinized in the public.

WRIGHT: PR-wise.

PINSKY: Yes. It doesn`t seem to match up with their behavior as it pertains to this case.

But, next, how can so many people be potentially wrong about an accused murder? The behavior bureau is going to look at that.

And later, Ms. Ali here with an opinion -- get this -- she may surprise you. Are you ready? Everybody is sitting down? You`re going to have her take on the stroller baby guilty verdict.

Back after this.



KEN CHICHESTER, ASSISTANT SUPERINTENDENT: Several of the people I talk to, their first response was they got the wrong person this time. It is out of character and very hard to believe.


PINSKY: Time for the behavior bureau.

Back with my co-host Samantha Schacher. We are talking about a California school principal accused of shooting her husband multiple times then dumping his body in a field. She has not been charged and an investigation continues at this time.

Joining us: attorney and SiriusXM radio host Jenny Hutt, psychologist Wendy Walsh, author of "The 30-Day Love Detox", Tiffanie Davis Henry, psychotherapist and HLN contributor, and criminal investigator, Danine Manette, author of "Ultimate Betrayal."

On the phone, I have the gentleman I believe we just saw, Ken Chichester, assistant superintendent of the Greenfield Union School District.

Ken, we heard you say everyone thought they had the wrong person. I`m still kind of thinking they do. Have you spoken to her? Have you heard anything that suggests otherwise?

CHICHESTER (via telephone): I did speak with her last Monday morning on a very brief conversation. Just to see how she was doing, let her know we were supporting her, and a couple questions about the staff wanting to help provide food and stuff like that. We did talk briefly last Monday morning.

PINSKY: How did she seem?

CHICHESTER: Very quiet. Very reserved. I asked her how she was doing. She said she was kind of in a daze.

PINSKY: But, Ken, appropriate for someone whose husband had just been murdered, right?

CHICHESTER: Sure. Everything seemed appropriate to me. We were trying to support her in every possible way we could.

PINSKY: What`s the scuttlebutt around the school? Like impossible, she couldn`t have done this. Is that the feeling?

CHICHESTER: I met with the staff Monday morning first thing. There were a lot of tears, a lot of emotion, a lot of shock. A couple people saying we think they made a mistake. That they had -- they got the wrong person.


PINSKY: Is anybody angry? I`m sorry to drill you on this, but if I was part of that community and the police said, this is the murder, hang on, we`re letting her go right now. I would be angry, particularly, if this were my friend.

CHICHESTER: I don`t know about the anger. I haven`t talked to many people. I just found out about the latest development this afternoon.

So I`m sure there`s a lot of people that just don`t want to believe and choose not to. And we know that people are innocent until proven guilty, and we`ll let that take its course.

PINSKY: All right. Fair enough.

Ken, thank you so much for joining us and giving your thoughts.

Danine, you`re a criminal investigator. I want to give -- you give us your gut on this one. What do you think?

DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: I`m surprised that they decided to arrest her and take her to court without -- you know, usually they step back a bit and say this is a person of interest.

PINSKY: Yes. Right.

MANETTE: And then they get more evidence and a lot more facts. And then they present the case for charging once they have more information, because once you say someone is a suspect, then they can get lawyered up and you lose pull in gathering evidence and information. But if they`re just a person of interest, you can keep your eye on them and you can develop the case. I am really surprised at how they have just thrown this out there and they have just -- they were so convinced that they had their person. That is egg on their face.

PINSKY: Tiffanie?

TIFFANIE DAVIS HENRY, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I have a question for Danine, Dr. Drew, actually. Isn`t it common for suspects to be arrested and then released because the investigators want to see what they do, who they go to, where they`re going next --

PINSKY: Or even watching too many TV.

HENRY: Yes. I`ve been watching HLN, Dr. Drew.


MANETTE: It does happen. It`s not particularly common. They usually like to get an airtight case before they go in and arrest the person because they don`t want to tip their hand too early. If someone is released then they have a chance to go out and tighten up their alibi and moving evidence around and whatnot, usually they try to get everything together and established before they go out and arrest a person.

PINSKY: All right. Fair enough.

MANETTE: In this situation in my opinion, they just dropped the ball.

PINSKY: Again, this business of we have got the murder. We have her in custody. That to me is -- I don`t know. I don`t hear those things from the police unless they really mean it. Wendy, let`s go to you and talk about the woman that`s going to kill her husband.

Let`s talk about what is -- no, I mean women do, Jenny.


PINSKY: It happens. But this woman doesn`t fit any of the profile. There`s no history of domestic violence. There`s -- she`s a quiet woman, stable mom, principal of a middle school. There`s no just substance abuse.

But I understand it could all be -- I get it. But why would the police go to the wife and go it`s got to be her particularly when there`s no antecedent history.

WALSH: Well, you know I host a show in Investigation Discovery called "Happily Never After", where brides and grooms murder each other at some point. So, I am a bit of an expert on this. I will tell you that some people, especially in a long-term marriage where they have anger issues but they`ve been socialized to not express their feelings, there`s this burning rage that can go on for many, many years and it can suddenly erupt.

So, there doesn`t have to be a history of domestic violence. There doesn`t have to be this awful stuff that we`re talking about.

But I also want to play devil`s advocate here, Dr. Drew.


WALSH: Could you imagine if this woman is completely innocent?

PINSKY: Yes, that`s what I`m saying.

WALSH: And she`s dealing with the grief of losing her husband and everybody`s talking about her like she`s a murder?

PINSKY: Yes. That`s why if I were somebody like Ken, her friend and coworker, I would be angry.

But, Jenny, I want to go to you. I think Wendy made a direct attack on you. I think she was talking about you there.


WALSH: Do you have a smoldering anger?

JENNY HUTT, ATTORNEY: Look. My almost-17-year marriage, I have fought little by little with my husband. There`s no thought I would wake up and just kill him. That`s "A."

"B," I don`t get the whole killing of the spouse thing. I really don`t. I know people do it and marriage is a motive.

But then "C," the fact everyone is saying they know she`s a great girl. She probably didn`t do it, I don`t think. But we really don`t know what goes on behind closed doors.


WALSH: But, Jenny, statistical probability says if you are murdered by somebody, it`s most often an intimate partner.


SCHACHER: I have a question for Wendy, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Go ahead, Sam. Very quick.

SCHACHER: Wendy, what would the warning signs be? Everyone said she was really cool and collected. She was kind. She didn`t have a temper.

PINSKY: OK. Wrap it up, Wendy. Take it home.

WALSH: I always say follow the money and I always say follow what`s going on with the gender roles. Is she carrying the burden of both making the most money and being the parent and he`s deadweight? Look for the dynamics in their relationship. Maybe there was domestic violence that nobody talked about.

PINSKY: Right.

WALSH: We just don`t know.

PINSKY: OK. Got to go, guys.

Ms. Ali is back.

And later, Miley Cyrus` first interview since twerking her way into controversy. That was quite a combo, quite a transition there from Ms. Ali to old Miley there.

Be right back after this. Don`t go away.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host Samantha Schacher.

Crystal, Danny, and Lynn are still with us.

Joining us, Shahrazad Ali. She`s the author of "Blackman`s Guide to Understanding the Blackwoman."

The teen accused of shooting a 13-year-old baby in the face was convicted of murder. The jury deliberated for two hours, but it wasn`t the quick verdict that the lawyers objected to. Take a look.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He pointed that gun right between the eyes. Give me the money or I`m going to shoot your baby.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We find the defendant guilty of malice murder. We find the defendant guilty of felony murder.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would have loved to be in the deliberation room with everybody and compare notes and see where we can all age. We`re talking about a life sentence for a young man.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you were 17-year-old black man from Brunswick, Georgia, and you were expecting a trial of your peers and 12 white people showed up to try your case. From Mr. Elken`s perspective, that was not the trial of a jury of his peers.

Mr. Elkens intends to file an appeal.


PINSKY: Ms. Ali, what is your reaction?

SHAHRAZAD ALI, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: It`s a very sad situation, but it`s unfortunately it`s a routine one. I think that he certainly demonstrates that the system is flawed because where are you going to get a jury of his peers?

His peers can`t vote at 17, 18 years old. They`re not old enough. They can`t drive a car. They`re too illiterate to fill out the jury forms. So he can`t get a jury of his peers.

But he at least should have gotten a jury that looked something like him instead of all white people. Once again, decisions are based on cultural experiences.

PINSKY: Crystal, I know you have a reaction --

ALI: And the cultural experience that white people think they have --

PINSKY: Yes. Ms. Ali, go ahead.

WRIGHT: You know --

ALI: Is to make sure that black people are going to be guilty. I think it`s a scam with the mother. I think it`s a trick. I think it`s just another case.

And this kid, I looked at this guy. He kind of looks like he`s a special needs child. I don`t think he --

WRIGHT: Oh, please.

ALI: I don`t think he understands what`s going on. I don`t think he can quantify this.

PINSKY: We can`t confirm or deny that. But, Crystal, go ahead.

WRIGHT: Of course, Shahrazad is going to make this about oh, the black man, he has no responsibility over his life. He can`t take charge. He`s like a child. He`s a special needs kid.

Really, Shahrazad? So somebody put the gun in his hand?

But let`s go back to what the public -- come on, you need to stop. You`re sending an awful message to young black men out there they`re not responsible for their lives. I`m sick of it. It`s racist.

ALI: Here`s the point -

WRIGHT: And, finally, you know what the public defender said, Dr. Drew? This is a jury of his peers. And you know what the public defender admitted? That of the 15 black males who came to court for part of the jury pool -- had 15 black men and 14 black women. They didn`t show up on time. You know what happens?


WRIGHT: Excuse me. Why don`t you be quiet and let`s talk --

PINSKY: Give Ms. Ali a chance in one second. Finish up.

WRIGHT: Wait a minute. When you don`t show up for jury duty on time, you get dumped to the bottom of the line, so you`re not going to get picked. This is about randomness. And as the judge said, random is random.

You know what? And I think whether this was an all-black jury or all- Hispanic jury, this boy killed the baby in between the eyes, in cold blood, with a gun. He deserves to be buried under the jail. Sorry.

PINSKY: Ms. Ali?

ALI: Well -- well, one thing we do know from history, the black guy shot the baby. Had it been a white guy, he probably would have took the baby home and ate him.


ALI: So it`s still not as bad as it could be.

WRIGHT: What are you talking about? You sound crazy. You sound absolutely crazy.

PINSKY: Hang on --

ALI: I`m not crazy. Y`all are crazy.


PINSKY: Hang on, guys. I want to go to Danny.

Danny, you`ve not been on with Ms. Ali before. I want to see if you help us navigate through the tough waters. It apparently was random. But let`s be fair, what was random was amongst pool of mostly white people.

WRIGHT: Well, maybe the black jurors should have showed up --


CEVALLOS: There`s nothing random --

WRIGHT: Let`s go with that.

CEVALLOS: Quiet. Quiet.

PINSKY: Danny.

CEVALLOS: Listen. Everyone needs to get this rule straight. Your ultimate jury does not need to be one of your peers. The constitutional requirement is that the jury pool be drawn from a fair cross section of the community.

You have no entitlement to a jury of your buddies, of people that look like you, that are your height. We need to understand that and get it straight.

Part two, assist --

ALI: That`s some kind of white people definition.

CEVALLOS: The system would not work if a judge -- quiet. Quiet. The system would not work if a judge could look at the jury and say you know what this jury needs? We need a couple more Eskimos. Give me some Koreans over there.

That would be a discriminatory way of doing it. Instead the adversarial process works. By the adversarial process, each side has challenges and they argue and a judge is there to make sure that the ultimate jury empanelled was not excluded because of race, because that (INAUDIBLE) challenged. But otherwise the jury -- by adversarial procedure.

PINSKY: OK. Lynn, you`ve been watching that --


ALI: We call that a racist procedure.

PINSKY: You`ve been watching this case. You can sympathize with what Ms. Ali is saying, can you not?

BERRY: That`s a bold statement, Dr. Drew. I`m not going to let you lead me into that alley.

WRIGHT: Thank you, Lynn.

BERRY: I will say, though, I was there when the defense attorneys right before the jury was selected to do up and said my client`s constitutional rights are being violated. I spoke to an attorney after that that said listen, the defense attorneys are throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks. They need to go on record because they`re going to ask for a new trial because they know what road this is going down.

So, there was a lot of strategy in the defense`s part. They did that all throughout this trial.


SCHACHER: Dr. Drew, may it be reminded that a little baby -- hold on, Ms. Ali. May it be reminded that a little baby was shot in between the eyes. I don`t care if Elkins was black, Hispanic, white or Asian. The evidence still goes to him and he should be charged and convicted as guilty and to be locked up?

ALI: Why? Why should he be charged when the mother and father had gun residue their hands?

SCHACHER: You think the mom did it?

BERRY: Because gun residues go like this and the mother was next to her baby.


ALI: You all are just a bunch of racists.

BERRY: I`m not saying that guilty or innocent, but if you`re going to present the facts, you have to put context to it.

PINSKY: OK, hold on, Ms. Ali.

WRIGHT: Shahrazad doesn`t like the facts. Shahrazad doesn`t like the facts. Gun power goes like that in your face.

ALI: Crystal, I want to talk to Crystal.

PINSKY: Ms. Ali, go ahead.


ALI: Crystal, do you want one?

WRIGHT: Do I want one of what?

ALI: Do you want one, Crystal? A big black man, you`re so against them, there must be something -- perhaps thou protest too much. I think you want a black man so bad, you are so against them.

PINSKY: Ms. Ali, Ms. Ali --


WRIGHT: My father is black. Wait. My father is black and I have two great black brothers. Great black uncles. You`re making a sexual reference that`s repugnant.

ALI: I`m talking about --


WRIGHT: A sexual reference is repugnant.

PINSKY: Hang on, personal attacks you guys. We`re getting into the personal zone again.

ALI: No. There you go.

PINSKY: Because Ms. Ali, although you`re inflammatory and say things people object to, wonder about the relevance, there`s always something deep in what you`re saying that I want to try to understand and where it`s coming from.

ALI: Yes.

PINSKY: And usually there`s something we can all learn from. What is it today? I`m not quite sure I`m hearing it today. Is it that --

WRIGHT: You heard her attack me. You heard her attack me personally and you didn`t denounce that, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: No, I did. I just did.

WRIGHT: Going after my sexual preference?


WRIGHT: Come on.

PINSKY: I`m not sure what that is. I said no personal attacks.

WRIGHT: Well, it was disgusting is what it was.

ALI: That wasn`t a personal attack.

SCHACHER: Can we talk about this poor baby that was murdered? Come on, you guys.

PINSKY: We`ve gone down some rabbit hole that I`m trying to climb out of here. And Crystal, I`m sorry if you felt personally attacked there.

ALI: This jury -- that was no attack. This jury is the same kind of jury that Trayvon Martin had that Zimmerman experienced. There`s no difference. Every time we get a White jury, you all are going to vote us guilty. It don`t matter if you see the crime or you heard about the crime. Every time we get in your courtroom, you`re going to make us guilty and send us to jail forever because you make money off of us in jail.

PINSKY: OK. Hold on.

ALI: That`s just how it is.

PINSKY: OK. So, Crystal, that is how Miss Ali feels. That`s not a factual statement. That`s I feel.

ALI: No, that is a fact.

PINSKY: Well, there`s truths in it that people make money off of the system and things.

WRIGHT: She`s right. I agree --


PINSKY: Crystal, take us home with that. Take us home.

WRIGHT: OK. Shahrazad, I agree with you. Our prison system is built -- it`s contracted out to private companies that have incentives to pack the prisons.

ALI: That`s right.

WRIGHT: And we need to focus on reducing federal mandatory minimums like Senator Rand Paul and Senator Leahy want to do so we don`t have a lot of Black men just proportionately incarcerated for possession of nonviolent -- you know, drug possession. That`s not good. We also need to focus on parenting right, Shahrazad. You agree with me.

ALI: That`s right.

WRIGHT: Where De`Marquise`s parents when picked up that gun?


ALI: Dr. Drew I have it. I have it, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Last word, my dear.

ALI: I have it.


ALI: This will take you home.


ALI: One of the problems we have in this country is that when a person in this country when a woman has a baby, they`re -- well, when you`re going to adopt a dog -- let me say it like this. You have to fill out about 10 or 15 pages. You have to talk about how you`re going to discipline the dog, what you go feed the dog.

Are you going to take the dog and got to exercise? What are you going to do with the dog is sick (ph). But when a woman in America have a baby, they give you a disposable diaper and some artificial milk and send you home.

PINSKY: All right.

ALI: And so, we need parenting classes. Maybe this young man --


PINSKY: All right. Next up, the baby`s uncle and grandmother are here with reactions to the verdict and the fact that this woman was scrutinized so severely during the trial.

And later, Miley Cyrus says she was out to make history with that performance at the VMAs. The "Behavior Bureau" is going to react to her first interview. Be right back.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If he wants to kill big people and little people, then he should go to prison like big people.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If you saw these two guys again, would you recognize them?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I might recognize the one.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you see in this courtroom today the man who shot and killed your baby, Antonio Santiago?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What would you say to the people out there that do believe that somehow she`s involved in the killing of her son?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, where`s it going to go from here? This is my nephew that got murdered in cold blood.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Samantha Schacher and our panel. Samantha, I want to give some love out to Crystal. Look at this tweet I got. This is from XOE_curly. "Dr. Drew, I love Crystal." And of course, the critics agree. I`ll give you her next tweet which was here. Let`s put that one up if we can, guys, in control room. I love Miss Ali." So, here we go, the critics agree.

SCHACHER: there`s somebody for everybody.

PINSKY: Clear message. It was the same woman twittering both responses there. So, as you see --

SCHACHER: Interesting.

PINSKY: But I want to give everybody kudos for getting to a common ground finally in that conversation.


PINSKY: There is my panel. We are talking about the guilty verdict of the teen who shot and killed a 13-year-old in a stroller. Joining us on the phone is Baby Antonio`s grandma, Christine Stillings. Christine, you have strong feelings about whether race played a role in this verdict. I wonder about your thoughts?


PINSKY: Thank you for joining us.

CHRISTINE STILLINGS: Thank you. I believe that it did not for the fact that we have a diversified family. My great grandfather is African- American. And half of our family is Hispanic and White. And neither of these race groups marched in the streets for Baby Antonio, my grandson. But we did leave it up to the jury to decide on the fact alone and the evidence.

PINSKY: Christine, this must be a very sad time for you. We haven`t had a chance to tell you --


PINSKY: Give us our condolences. your poor daughter, it`s your daughter, right?

CHRISTINE STILLINGS: My dear daughter, my natural daughter, and they`re all from the same dad, the late Frank Stillings.

PINSKY: And she has been through quite an ordeal here on the stand. And I know she has mental illness and needs support. Is she OK?

CHRISTINE STILLINGS: My daughter is fine. My daughter talked on the phone three times a week with Baby Antonio. He would giggle and laugh. She was bringing him here this summer. She waited for a year. She wanted him to be at least a year old to travel from Georgia.


CHRISTINE STILLINGS: Yes. My daughter is a fine cook, a fine mother. She did studies in psychologies and health issues. And, she`s a very good girl.

PINSKY: Well, Christine, thank you for joining us. Please give her our regards. I`m going to talk to Jacob right now who is Baby Antonio`s uncle. His sister, Sherry West, is of course, the baby`s mom. Sherry was the subject of a pretty intense scrutiny during the trial. There were lots of attacks on her character. Jacob, hey, welcome back. How does she feel now?

JACOB STILLINGS, MURDERED BABY`S UNCLE: She had a chance to come on tonight, and she`s -- her nerves, her stress levels, everything. I can`t complain, because I`ve never been through this. And I would never love to be through this. You know what I mean? I can`t explain what she`s going through because I`ve never been through it.

PINSKY: Now, listen. You heard our last panel conversation about the jury selection and about whether or not there was an appropriate representation of the peers of the young man who was convicted. Do you have a reaction to what Miss Ali was saying?

JACOB STILLINGS: Boy, do I. Well, first of all, I wanted to say that Miss Ali, hello. Thank you for joining me. Thank you, Samantha for sticking up for my sister. Miss Ali, listen. I love you. You didn`t shoot a little baby. I have nothing against you. I have nothing against the Black community. I have nothing against African-American community. I have nothing against any one of your nationality. But what happens is that --

ALI: Can you tell me this.

JACOB STILLINGS: Just like I said in my first segment -- my second segment is that if we`re getting sidetracked here. It`s the act at hand. You shot a 13-month-old baby in the face point blank after counting down from five to one. You didn`t think before you shot a baby that couldn`t even say a first word. It`s not color. It`s not nationality. It`s not race. It`s not -- listen.

I have -- believe me, beyond reasonable doubt, I have African-American in my ancestry. I have Indian-American in my ancestry. I`ve done all the way back. And I have my great, great, great grandfather on my maternal side is African-American. It`s not about that. It`s about the act at hand about shooting a little baby.

PINSKY: Crystal, go ahead. Jacob, hold on a second.


WRIGHT: Jacob, I couldn`t agree with you more? It`s about a hate crime committed in a calculated manner by a 17-year-old who should have known better.

PINSKY: I don`t think anybody --


WRIGHT: And let`s go to what Christine -- well, I mean, hate crime and hate in the fullest manner of hate. It`s hate in the fullest manner.


STILLINGS: Who knows what he was thinking.

WRIGHT: Let`s go back to what Christine said. It`s hate because I don`t know any 17-year-old that I`ve ever come into contact with that would go like this and shoot a baby in the face. That`s hate. That`s violence. But I want to go back to what Christine said.


WRIGHT: Nobody`s marching for Baby Antonio. Nobody`s marching for Baby Antonio.


WRIGHT: I`m sorry. Yes. I`m sorry. Baby Santiago. But nobody was marching for him. Nobody marched for him. But everybody rushed to the streets and committed false judgments with George Zimmerman.

SCHACHER: It`s because of the outrage, Crystal, for not arresting him for 45 days.

PINSKY: I`m up against the clock a little bit. Miss Ali, what do you want to say here?

WRIGHT: You`re not right.

ALI: I just want to tell the gentleman that I give him my condolences. I`m so sorry that that happened to his grand baby. That is a terrible thing. That is not what we`re talking about. What I want to know, who took out the insurance policy on the baby since the mother had mental illness?

JACOB STILLINGS: The hospital.


LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST: You have to put context to it. She explained that the hospital offered this because her baby was sick. She paid $3 a month. This was something that was explained in court. And you said --


BERRY: So, if you throw out suspicious comments, you are -- this woman has already been put on the stand for four hours and put through the ringer. There has been a verdict.


PINSKY: Jacob, thank you for joining us, the grandma for joining us as well. Panel, thank you guys. I`m switching gears.

I`m going to talk about -- Sam and I are heading over to talk about Miley Cyrus` first comments about her VMA act. Apparently, it was all planned. Good move? Not a good -- well, we`ll see. "Behavior Bureau" is back to discuss it.

Also, I want to remind people to please stay tuned right after this show for "Extreme Dream," about Diana Nyad`s history making swim from Cuba to Key West. It airs ten o`clock on HLN. Don`t go away.



DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: Dr. Drew, you know, I hope when she sobers up, she watches this back so she can see how she looked. But the fact of the matter is is that she`s a 20-year-old girl and her brain is not even fully developed. And he`s a 35-year-old married man. They did not just come on stage and decide to do this all of a sudden. This was rehearsed and practiced. And I`m quite sure it came across exactly how they expected it to.


PINSKY: Back with the "Behavior Bureau" and my co-host, Samantha Schacher. Seems like Danine might have been right. Miley`s performance planned, rehearsed, and practiced. Here`s what she just told MTV. Take a look.


MILEY CYRUS, SINGER: I don`t pay attention to the negative because I`ve seen this play out so many -- how many times have we seen this play out in pop music? You know now. You know what happened. Madonna`s done it. Britney`s done it. Every VMA performers, anyone that performs -- you know, anyone that performs. That`s what you`re looking for.

You`re wanting to make history. Me and Robin the whole time said, you know, we`re going to make history right now. You`re thinking about it more than I thought about it when I did it. Like, I didn`t even think about it, because that`s just me.


PINSKY: Danine, there you go. You got it. Reaction to the interview?

SCHACHER: Making history.

MANETTE: -- she`s looking more like Justin Bieber these days. Anyway, you know, she did exactly what she wanted to do. She went out there got out there and got a hoochie momma role and bounce her little stanky (ph) tail around the stage exactly like she wanted to. But what tells me is that she compares herself to Madonna and -- you know, she compares herself to Madonna and to Britney Spears.

But what about Taylor Swift or Jordin Sparks or -- those people? They don`t act like that. Why do we go to the lowest form of behavior for women on stage in order to determine the litmus test of how we should act on stage? I think it`s ridiculous.

PINSKY: Jenny, what do you think of that?

JENNY HUTT, ATTORNEY: First of all, I don`t even understand all the names - Madonna (INAUDIBLE). What Miley did wasn`t like my taste, but she was smart. What she wanted was a reaction. She got a reaction.

PINSKY: And Tiffanie, I think maybe Jenny`s onto something. I mean, really, what seems to bother everybody more than anything is that we`re watching Hannah Montana do this stuff. If she had she not been Hannah Montana, she just be another female performer doing her thing.

TIFFANIE DAVIS HENRY, PH.D., PSYCHOTHERAPIST: That`s the thing. Hannah Montana is a character that she played. She is not Hannah Montana and she has said, hello, people. I`m Miley Cyrus. And she`s been trying to tell you that for a long, long time. And if you don`t have it by now, Dr. Drew, you ain`t never going to get it.

PINSKY: That`s right. And Wendy, I think that`s why she`s trying -- maybe going beyond where she should for her, shall we say, her skillset. You what I mean? We`re reacting because she was Hannah Montana. She`s rebelling literally and then going too far with it. Do you agree with that, Wendy?

HENRY: I thought you were talking about the skillset of twerking.


WENDY WALSH, PH.D., AUTHOR, "THE 30-DAY DETOX": I have to say also, you know, the fact that her dad supported her in this and said oh, if we twerked back then, I would have done it back then if that was around. Of course, twerking has been around for a long time.

SCHACHER: Nobody wants to see it.

WALSH: But I think the point is it shows that the family values and her values are only about money and fame. That`s all that matters here. Number of clicks. Doesn`t matter if they`re positive or negative. In fact, what we`re talking about right now is helping her out. It`s giving her more clicks.

They just want money and fame. And these are the values that a lot of teenagers think are important now instead of any morals or self-respect.

PINSKY: Sam, I want to get your thought after the break. More on this in just a second.


PINSKY: Back with the "Behavior Bureau" and my co-host, Samantha Schacher and the "Behavior Bureau." Again, as I said, Sam, you were about to say something before the break.

SCHACHER: OK. I just have a problem with the fact that she said that this is her making history.

PINSKY: Miley Cyrus.

SCHACHER: Yes. Miley Cyrus. If she believes that that`s making history, well, that`s a shame. Number two, you can`t compare her performance with the likes of Britney and Madonna. Sure they`ve had controversial performances, but they knew to have little moments of shock and awe. That`s the difference. Not the whole thing.

PINSKY: But that`s what I was talking about the skillset is like they were artists expressing, exploring, whatever. It seems like Miley -- you`re saying no, Jenny. I`m going to get your response, but it seems like Miley is about rebelling and not being Hannah Montana and trying to be a performer. I understand that. What do you say, Jenny?

HUTT: OK. Two things. Number, Miley Cyrus is super talented. She writes her own music. She`s got a great voice. I say you can`t compare her in terms of talent. She`s uber-talented. Number two, I think part of the confusion at least for me, Dr. Drew, is I look at her and I look at her as a teenager like my kid and then -- and she`s not exactly. And then, she`s all sexual and that was huge.

PINSKY: She looks younger than she is.

SCHACHER: You can`t compare the performance. You can`t compare the performance.

PINSKY: Hang on. Tiffanie is just cracking up. What`s going on, Tiffanie?

HENRY: Because this is funny. And Dr. Drew, I`m sorry, twerking is a skillset.


HENRY: If you go to any strip club here in Atlanta, you will see it on display. And next time you come here, I`m taking you to magic city and we`re going to see what twerking is all about, OK?


HENRY: Miley doesn`t actually have the skillset, I might add.

PINSKY: I was going to say you`re famous this pal (ph) say. Well, if I were 20, I would have done something like that.


HENRY: Nobody wants to see Billy Ray twerk, OK? That is not going break my achy breaky heart. So --

PINSKY: Let me put a tweet up real quick because you guys can post that up. Here`s how the audience basically feels about this. Let`s put that up there. "I don`t want to see Miley doing her thing anymore." Can you put that up for me, Dave, control room? Here it comes. This is from @j_girllaker girl looks. "Stop talking about Miley Cyrus" #stopgivingherpress, #sshhh. So, there you go. Hopefully --

HENRY: I don`t understand why this is still a story. Why we`re still talking about it?


PINSKY: I was shocked. I talked about it on Piers Morgan show. As an aircraft carrier steaming its way to Syria, we`re talking about Miley Cyrus. I`m just saying. Thank you, panel. "Last Call" is next.


PINSKY: Sam, you were a collegiate swimmer for UCLA. What are your thoughts on Diana Nyad?

SCHACHER: She is an ultimate hero. I mean, she swim -- it took her 53 hours, Dr. Drew. And just the endurance alone not to mention the element, not swimming with a shark cage, it`s unbelievable. That is somebody who is going down in history.

PINSKY: All right. And that swim, that historic swim is a special about that next coming up. Don`t go away. Here it comes. Diana Nyad special.