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Castro`s Cousin Shocked By His Death; Daughter`s E-mail To Mom, "You Will Pay"
Aired September 4, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Ariel Castro commits suicide, hangs himself in prison.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some in the community have said that Castro took the coward`s way out.
PINSKY: How did this happen?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If they did a forensic evaluation with him recently, then he should have been on a suicide watch.
PINSKY: Is this the ultimate act of a narcissist?
Plus, a teen is accused of stabbing her mother more than 70 times in the face and neck. Did a difficult relationship suddenly turn deadly?
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening.
My co-host Samantha Schacher, host of "Pop Trigger" on the Young Turks Network.
And coming up, an 18-year-old, you just saw pictures of that young lady. She is accused of stabbing her mother 79 times in the face and neck, Sam. Unbelievable.
SAM SCHACHER, CO-HOST: Chilling.
PINSKY: A chilling story. The father, the stepfather saw blood rushing out from under the bathroom door. We will get into that story.
But first, we`re talking about Ariel Castro, the man who had kidnapped three women and kept them imprisoned for a decade. He is dead. He killed himself.
Take a look.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That the man convicted of holding three women prisoner for a decade is dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ariel Castro used a bed sheet to hang himself in his cell.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ripped the sheeting, tie it real tight around the sink, around your neck and just let yourself go limp.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He does have family that had nothing to do with this, and they`re devastated by the loss of their brother.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Monster, hateful. I hope he rots in that jail.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My father`s actions are not a reflection of everyone in the family. We don`t have monster in our blood.
ARIEL CASTRO: I`m not a monster either. I was a victim.
AMANDA BERRY, CASTRO`S VICTIM: I`ve been kidnapped and I`ve been missing for 10 years and I`m here, I`m free now!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The only sentence available, life without role.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This man couldn`t take even for a month a small portion of what he dished out for more than a decade.
PINSKY: And joining us, HLN`s Lynn Berry.
Lauren Lake, attorney and host of TV`s "Paternity Court," premiering September 23rd. Congratulations, Lauren.
LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY: Thank you.
PINSKY: Attorney and CNN contributor, Danny Cevallos.
Brian Copeland, talk show host on KGO Radio in San Francisco, author of "Not a Genuine Black Man."
We also have CNN`s Martin Savidge, who had spoken to Ariel Castro`s brother-in-law who said Castro seemed depressed during the family visit.
Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Body language, tone of voice, his conversation. He wasn`t as conversational. It was more of, you know, he was tired, he was lonely, he was missing his daughter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Missing his daughter. That`s the part that sets your mind on edge. I`ve got to tell you.
Martin Savidge joins us on the phone.
Martin, can you give us the latest?
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Well, Dr. Drew, there`s not just one, but two investigations under way this hour independent of one another, trying to determine how was it exactly that Ariel Castro, reportedly under protective custody, where he would be checked on every 30 minutes, was able to commit suicide as prison officials report he did last night. One of those investigations by the Department of Corrections, the other being done with the Ohio state highway patrol.
The family itself initially very upset that they first heard of the death of Ariel Castro on the news. It was later verified that prison officials had actually called Ariel Castro`s mother. She was not home at the time. She`s out of town. And that message was never received.
Later, they were able to run down his sister and they contacted her on the cell phone several hours after that. The interview with the brother- in-law, there`s a lot there. Of course, this is a family that, you know, is dealing in part with grief, but, of course, the terrible stigma that they suffer as a result of what their family member did and the horrible crimes that they have never condoned and only said that he deserved punishment he got.
But at the same time, they want to make sure that in no way this death or their mourning of it in any way revives the memories and the suffering of the three young women who have now started their lives back on track.
SAVIDGE: They said it`s not going to be a funeral, there`s not going to be any service, there`s not going to be any wake. Going to be totally, totally private.
SAVIDGE: And we should point out, the women themselves have not said anything.
SAVIDGE: And lastly, the depression. The last time the family members visited Ariel Castro 10 days ago, they said that he was very different. He was much gloomier.
They attributed that to the fact that he spent 23 hours a day in a cell and gets only one hour for recreation. But it was Ariel Castro in the end who at one point had been threatened with the death penalty, who took his own life, apparently, on his own term.
PINSKY: Thank you, Martin.
Sam, you want to ring in?
SCHACHER: Yes. Listen, I hear it so ironic that here this monster who imprisoned his victims for a decade can barely take being locked up for a month?
PINSKY: I know. We`re supposed to feel bad for him, Lauren --
LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY: Dr. Drew, I`m going keep it real and tell you, when I first heard, my first thought was -- go to hell, go directly to hell, do not pass go and you ain`t getting $200. I was so angry, because I felt like not only did you not own up to and face and show remorse to your victims at your sentencing, you now can`t face the sentence! Now you`ve imposed this death penalty upon yourself.
And you know what? I`m going to be honest. I hope his suffering is not over.
BRIAN COPELAND, KGO RADIO: Yes.
LAKE: I hope he pays the price.
COPELAND: I don`t think this was a question of taking the easy way out, or not being able to do the time that he was sentenced to. I think this was about control.
You know, if you listen to the statement that he gave at sentencing, this was the ultimate narcissist, the ultimate control freak, and what better way to stick your middle finger up at the system than to say, "I`m going to control how long I`m here, even though you gave me life plus 1,000 years."
You know, Brian, to Danny, I think Brian`s on to something here, that there is a sort of power and control aspect to this, and no one`s going to have any satisfaction from this guy ever.
DANNY CEVALLOS, ATTORNEY: No.
Yes, the interesting thing here is that statistically, once Ariel Castro -- once he left jail and went into prison, his odds of committing suicide actually dropped significantly. The thing here, however, is that with something like this, the thing that makes a person at risk is putting them on suicide watch, because you isolate them from other people, and that itself can lend itself to a higher risk of suicide.
PINSKY: But, Danny --
CEVALLOS: It`s a little bit of a conundrum, but don`t cry for me, Argentina.
PINSKY: I`m with you on that.
But, Lynn, he wasn`t actually on suicide watch. He was on protective custody. He`d been on suicide watch and then he went over to protective custody --
LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST: Right.
PINSKY: -- which, if I understand this correctly, Lynn, was to protect him from the other inmates.
BERRY: Absolutely. And his attorney had argued that they were denied a psychiatric evaluation, but it`s important to note it was an independent psychiatric evaluation that they were asking for. They gave -- the prison gave Ariel Castro a physical, a psychological evaluation. They wanted their own person. They wanted the best of the best.
Sorry, you don`t get to do that. The state has no obligation of doing that at all.
SCHACHER: You`re right, Lynn. He was under an evaluation back in May.
PINSKY: Brian, you want to say something?
COPELAND: Oh, well, just two things I wanted to chime in here. I think that it`s inexcusable that his family had to find out through the media. You know, there is no reason on God`s green earth that that should happen the way that it did.
And second thing, my initial reaction was the same as a lot of people`s. I said, good. I said, you know, cause of death, justice served.
COPELAND: So, since so many of us in America felt that way, what does that say about us? I`m asking you, Doc. What does that say about us?
PINSKY: Well, Brian, I`m going to defer -- I`m going to defer that over to the behavior bureau and we`ll talk about that there, because it does tell us something, doesn`t it?
Lauren, you have something here?
LAKE: Well, I have to react with what Brian just said. There was a part in me that felt horrible about myself when I said, that`s great, because I don`t ever want to encourage any human being, even those in the prison system, to take their own life. And at the same time, I felt so much anger. And I expressed it on your show, Dr. Drew, with the way this manhandled himself in court. I couldn`t help but feel like justice was served.
PINSKY: Well, it`s a feeling of satisfaction, even though you hate yourself for feeling that way. I was on a radio program and I --
BERRY: And we don`t even know why we feel this way, because we`ve never even been put in a position where there`s a monster that`s like this.
PINSKY: Yes, you`re right. I know, you`re absolutely right.
But, Danny, let me ask you this, I heard -- well, let`s speculate. Do you think there`s any possibility the guard sort of looked the other way, had similar feelings that we`re feeling tonight and sort of maybe didn`t keep on top of him quite the way they should have? And whether or not that`s true or not, does the prison -- hang on, does the prison have any liability here?
CEVALLOS: It`s funny you say that, doctor, when I was in political court this morning, that was the scuttlebutt going around, but the reality is we really can`t know for sure. If the prison followed its procedures and he was on suicide watch, which I don`t believe he was, then he would have been checked every 15 or every 30 minutes.
So, the idea that even another inmate got to him, I think he was in ad seg. He was segregated from other inmates. It`s highly doubtful that happened.
This is a situation where he`s allowed out maybe an hour a day. So, I`ve heard a lot of the speculation. I can`t rule it out, anything`s possible. But he also had plenty of reasons a motivations to do this himself.
PINSKY: Yes, he had previous, Lynn, suicidal ideation of him. There was apparently a letter made out to his mom in the past, was there not, or to somebody?
SCHACHER: Yes, back in 2004, saying that he would want everything to go to the victims.
COPELAND: But here`s the ironic part of this.
PINSKY: What`s that?
COPELAND: And that is that the reason he got the sentence he got is because he copped that plea in order to take the death penalty off the table.
COPELAND: So, if he had gone to trial, if he had been sentenced to death, he would have had 15 to 20 years of appeals before he was put to death.
PINSKY: Yes, but Brian, I think your point is straight, is exactly correct, which is, it`s all about power and control for him. I mean, just think about the way that he kept those girls. That`s power and control.
SCHACHER: He`s a coward.
LAKE: He`s a coward, I agree.
PINSKY: But it`s --
LAKE: He`s a coward.
PINSKY: But it`s terroristic, the way his mind works and he`s going to have his way in the end. Thank you, panel.
Next up, behavior bureau weighs in on the suicide.
Also, later, a member of the Castro family is here. She will reveal the emotions that came for the family with the news of this death. Don`t go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASTRO: First of all, I`m an emotional person, so I`ll have to get it out.
PINSKY: The judge says Castro has extreme narcissism.
CASTRO: I was a victim of sex acts.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s character flaw, not an illness, that he has.
CASTRO: I drove a school bus for 21 years. I did a very good job. This job is too stressful and coming home to my situation.
PINSKY: He`s not psychiatrically ill. This is how his brain works!
CASTRO: They`re trying to say that I`m a violent person. I`m not a violent person.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He is continuing to attack his victims. He is continuing to abuse them.
CASTRO: I knew I was going to get pretty much the book thrown at me. The true judgment day is when God comes and judges me.
PINSKY: Oh, man, he`s got that right.
Welcome back. Time for the behavior bureau. My co-host Samantha Schacher, we are talking about the suicide of kidnapper Ariel Castro.
Joining us on the panel, criminologist Casey Jordan, host of "Wives With Knives" on Investigation Discovery. Psychologist Judy Ho, psychotherapist Wendy Walsh, author of "30-Day Love Detox", and Danine Manette, criminal investigator and author of "Ultimate Betrayal".
Casey, does this suicide -- sort of two questions -- does the suicide tell us something about him? I guess I have three questions. "A," you said it`s a character problem. "B," is it about power and control, like Brian suggested in that last segment? And "C," what does it say about us that we feel OK about it?
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: All right. Is it a character flaw? Yes, I would argue it`s more of the same. It`s all about power and control to answer your second question.
It was a choice. It wasn`t an accident. I don`t know how long he was thinking about it, but I find it. So interesting that only a month after his exhibit of distorted thinking, I think, Dr. Drew, reality started setting in.
He went from -- I`m going to fight for custody and visitation rights with my biological daughter, which was unbelievable that he would say that in court, to hanging himself from the neck. I think reality hit him squarely in the face, and we don`t feel bad about it, because honestly, I think the victims can heal better now that he is not walking the face of this earth.
PINSKY: I agree with you.
JORDAN: Not in prison.
PINSKY: I agree with you. People are asking me.
Judy, I wonder if you agree with that as well. People were asking what are the girls experiencing. I don`t think the girls are experiencing anything except --
WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: I disagree.
PINSKY: Is that Wendy? Go ahead.
WALSH: Yes. I absolutely disagree, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Go ahead, please.
WALSH: I`m going to say something really unpopular here tonight. I think some of your guests are showing no empathy, no compassion.
Yes, this guy`s a monster. He may have been abused as a child himself, but he`s a human being. He lost his life.
We are not a lynch mob. We should not be cheering for this. It is sad all the way around, for the victims and everybody.
And I`ll tell you what I think the victims are feeling, Dr. Drew, complete confusion. Because remember, this man who entrapped them and tortured them for ten years was also their lifeline, and they were young enough to have formed some kind of attachment to him.
It doesn`t mean it`s traditional love by any means, but there was an intimacy, and they are going to have very confusing feelings of loss as they`re also cheering. So, we shouldn`t be cheering for anybody here, because this is hard on all.
PINSKY: Danine, you are confused.
DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: Yes. You know, I`m sorry. I can`t sign on to that. I cannot get on the side of feeling sympathy for a child molester or a murderer or a rapist, whatever he is. I have no sympathy for him whatsoever.
MANETTE: The only person I feel sorry for in this situation is the little girl because she lost her father. And to her, he was just a normal human being.
PINSKY: That`s right.
MANETTE: Everybody else, you know, to everyone else he was a monster and we know what he was all about. I have no sympathy for him. He`s a loser and good-bye.
SCHACHER: I have sympathy for the whole family, the generations of family.
PINSKY: OK, I get you, there`s a lot of people suffering because of this guy, but Judy -- Judy brings up something very important, is that 6- year-old, the biological father will be important for that 6-year-old no matter what. This suicide will have meaning to her way later.
JUDY HO, PSYCHOLOGIST: Absolutely. And you know, now that he`s gone, both his daughter and these three women that he victimized, they will have no chances to really get answers. And I actually think that that is an impasse that will be seen in the years to come as, you know, where do they get the answers for why this happened?
You know, and now that he`s gone, it`s going to be hard to do that. But I agree that he has narcissistic tendencies. He has been externalizing blame, blaming his own childhood, becoming a victim of his own upbringing this entire time, and the remorse is not really what you would expect of somebody who really understands the repercussions of what he did.
SCHACHER: Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: Go ahead, Sam.
SCHACHER: Yes, I thought -- OK, earlier, I read a statistic in one of the articles that was presented to us that prison inmates die from suicide three times more than homicide in prison.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Duh.
SCHACHER: I did not know it was that common.
PINSKY: Yes, in institutional setting, despite it being observed very carefully, people can kill themselves in very efficient and very quick ways.
SCHACHER: It isn`t all that shocking.
JORDAN: It`s a depressing environment.
SCHACHER: Right. Especially in solitary confinement.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: it`s a very depressing environment.
MANETTE: Don`t go.
PINSKY: Danine, thank you for that, don`t go to prison.
MANETTE: Stay out of prison, you don`t have that problem. We spend so much time coddling and feeling sorry for and trying to understand. Some people are just bad, they make bad choices. They do bad things and go to prison. Good-bye. It`s just the way that it is.
WALSH: That`s such simple thinking. I`m sorry, that is such simple thinking.
MANETTE: Well, it is what it is.
WALSH: It takes many generations to create a monster, many generations, biology and systems --
MANETTE: We can`t undo that.
PINSKY: I get your --
MANETTE: We can`t undo that. We can`t deal with the past, so we have to deal with the behavior and the present. And the behavioral present, he`s a monster and we`ve got to deal with that.
WALSH: We shouldn`t cheer.
MANETTE: Can`t deal with what happened to him as a child, can`t do it.
PINSKY: Casey, let me go to you. I hope people get the nuance of this conversation, because Wendy is saying Castro was the -- we would have been crying for him as the young child victim when he was a 5-year-old being sexually abused.
He becomes a perpetrator. There`s a relationship between that victimization and his becoming a perpetrator. How do we reconcile this?
PINSKY: Wendy has sympathy for that. I don`t think many people do. I don`t.
How do we reconcile this?
JORDAN: Well, Wendy revealed her conflict in calling him a monster, but then saying he is a human being. It is possible that he was both.
JORDAN: The bottom line is, you have three girls who were captives in that house, including the young, young daughter, the 6-year-old. I don`t think there is one blanket answer. I think each one of them is going to deal with it in her individual way and each one of them will give herself closure.
I don`t think they were ever going to get answers from that man and I think his mere existence would keep them conflicted for the rest of his life. So, I think they`re going to find tremendous peace. They can let it go, they can find their own healing.
I think his death provides that. I don`t think any of us are joyous, we`re just happy for that level --
PINSKY: Wendy accuses us of being a lynch mob and --
WALSH: Well, the guests in your last segment sure were.
PINSKY: Yes, I think you`re right. I think it is an expression of a primitive impulse for human sacrifice and that`s maybe -- I don`t want to speculate, but I think we just feel some very primitive gratification from this.
I`m not proud of it. I`m in it. I feel it.
SCHACHER: What if it was your daughter? What if it was your daughter, Wendy, how are you feel?
WALSH: I would feel bad for all concerned. I`m an equal opportunity sympathy giver.
PINSKY: Wendy, you`re better -- Wendy`s a better human than the rest of us. That`s all I`m saying.
HO: Dr. Drew, do you think it`s interesting that he couldn`t put up with the things that he subjected these girls to for over ten years?
PINSKY: I think it`s absolutely fascinating, isn`t it?
UNIDENTIFEID FEMALE: But dr. Drew --
PINSKY: I think, though --
PINSKY: -- but I think the girls will actually be angry with that, because they are robbed of the ability of what they intended, which is to see him rot in prison.
SCHACHER: Right, exactly.
PINSKY: Danine, I want you take me out --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is worse.
PINSKY: Hang on -- well, I don`t know.
Danine, I want to take me out again with the don`t go there. I love that. It`s everybody. Stay in the present, don`t go there.
MANETTE: Exactly. We spend a lot of time talking about these bad childhoods and all that, and I get that, and it`s a sad thing. Let`s get the violin. Not all of us got all 52 cards, granted.
But we`ve got to deal with the behavior in the present, and we`ve got to stop coddling these people and giving them all of these excuses. We`ve got to --
WALSH: But dealing with the behavior, we have decided as a civilized society that the way that we will deal with this behavior is stop the cycle of family violence by putting one in jail and protecting society from him. We shouldn`t cheer when he becomes human and commits suicide.
PINSKY: Listen, I love this --
MANETTE: It`s not cheering, but right now --
PINSKY: I`ve got to close this situation now and I got to get to break, but we tackled some difficult stuff and Wendy taking a very unpopular decision.
Next up, Ariel Castro`s cousin is here with family reaction to his suicide.
And later, if you remember Hitchcock`s "Psycho," the movie "Psycho," now we have a real-life -- there she is.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My gosh.
PINSKY: A teen arrested in the death of her mother. She stabbed her mother more than 70 times in the shower, the face and neck.
More after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PEDRO CASTRO, ARIEL CASTRO`S BROTHER: It`s shocking. I can`t believe that Ariel was committing such a hateful crime.
ONIL CASTRO, ARIEL CASTRO`S BROTHER: Absolutely nothing that I can see that was unusual. No idea that this horrific crime was going on.
ARLENE CASTRO, ARIEL CASTRO`S DAUGHTER: I never suspected anything was going on. But the more I sit and dwell on it, I think of things that make a whole lot of sense now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with the behavior bureau and my co-host, Samantha Schacher. Ariel Castro had been sentenced to life in prison less than a month ago. Now, he has killed himself as of last night, found hanging in his cell.
His cousin, Maria Castro Montes joins us by phone.
Maria, thank you for joining us. I wonder if you can share your thoughts and reaction to your cousin`s suicide.
MARIA CASTRO MONTES, ARIEL CASTRO`S COUSIN (via telephone): Good evening, Dr. Drew.
You know, reaction, shock, obviously. Shocked that it happened, and actually almost a little disbelief that he even did this himself.
PINSKY: You mean, you believe -- hang on, you mean may somebody did something to him?
MONTES: That`s -- you know, I wonder, because people say that suicide is a coward`s way out, but it still does take a certain amount of courage to take your own life --
PINSKY: Well, unless people are so severely depressed and in so much pain that they need the pain to stop. And so, my question to you would be, is there any evidence that he was in that kind of a depression?
MONTES: I don`t know because I had not visited him personally. No one else in the immediate family had, not even his kids. The only one that was visiting him was his mom and his sister.
PINSKY: Let me ask you this, too, Maria, is his mom OK? I`ve heard that she`s a lovely woman, in spite of what her son -- is she OK?
MONTES: She`s a very lovely woman. She`s been a wonderful aunt to all of us and -
PINSKY: It`s got to be so hard for her.
MONTES: Yes. We haven`t spoken with her today. She`s obviously just kind of been keeping herself out of the spotlight, and I can only assume as a mother what she must be going through, and I feel for her.
PINSKY: Now, I want to ask you one thing before I let my panel have a couple questions for you. Apparently, he was sexually abused as a child. Did you ever know anything about that?
MONTES: I personally never knew anything about that. I honestly have to say that I don`t believe that. He made a lot of excuses when he sat in front of the judge and in that courtroom, trying to put the blame on everyone else for -- even putting a certain amount of blame back on to the victims.
PINSKY: Oh, yes, we saw that.
MONTES: So, I have to wonder if this was just some way for him to, I don`t know if it was to try to get sympathy, again to make an excuse, you know? And if he was sexually abuse as a child, that`s still, it doesn`t make what he did right.
PINSKY: That`s right. That`s exactly right. Maria, that is exactly what we were just talk being in our last segment.
But I want to give my panel a chance. I`ll go around to each of them, starting out with Casey.
JORDAN: Maria, first of all, I know this is a shock to you and your family. And you mentioned that you had not seen him in the past month. No one in the family had, other than his mom and his sister. Did you register to Ariel that the family was truly rejecting him and had no plans to see him for the rest of his life? Did he know that?
MONTES: I don`t know if he knew that or not.
PINSKY: I`m not sure that was accurate, too, either, Casey, because the mom had been visiting him recently, and he was actually asking to see the 6-year-old. So, I think he was getting contact.
MONTES: Right, he was getting contact --
JORDAN: Right, but did he understand his family was rejecting him? Did he understand his family was rejecting him?
MONTES: Right. Well, I mean, you know, his kids were rejecting him - -
PINSKY: He knew that.
MONTES: Obviously, the rest of us, you know, wanted no contact with him.
PINSKY: But he understood that, Maria, is that right?
MONTES: I`m sure he probably did.
PINSKY: OK. Let me go next -- Judy, go ahead.
JUDY HO, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Hey, Maria. What was your relationship like with Ariel? And what was the last interaction you had with him before, maybe it was possibly before he even went in, I`m not sure, but what was that like?
MONTES: My relationship with him was more of that youthful teenage relationship where we had gotten really close in our teenage years, but you know, we grew up. We separated due to, you know, families. He married and had his family. I married and had my family. Pretty much, you know, you distance yourself in that way, not because anything necessarily happened --
PINSKY: Got it.
MONTES: But it`s just a matter of it`s a fact of life.
PINSKY: Wendy, go ahead.
WENDY WALSH, PH.D., AUTHOR, "THE 30-DAY DETOX": You mentioned that you think it takes a lot of courage to commit suicide, something that you didn`t think that he had. So, what is your idea of what happened here?
MONTES: I just tend to think that, perhaps, someone got to him in the jail, you know, perhaps some of the other inmates did something. And you know, I have to wonder if he committed suicide because he was guilt-ridden or was this just one more way of him to have that final level of control.
PINSKY: Yes. Danine.
MONTES: Maybe both.
DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: Maria, I know that the majority of the family distanced themselves from him, but I`m wondering if any of you all have ever reached out to the victims, most notably to his daughter, and in fact, maybe tried to establish some type of future relationship with her or something since she`s part of the family?
MONTES: Well, when all of this broke four months ago and I did one of my initial on-camera interviews, I did indicate that we would love nothing more than to be able to meet his daughter and to show her a part of the family that`s loving, caring, and generous. But you know, it`s not the time, nowhere near the time to try to make any kind of contact with any of them. I`ve put it out there, but I certainly don`t want to do anything to --
PINSKY: Got it. Sam.
MONTES: -- cause any pain.
PINSKY: Go ahead.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Maria, your family has been, particularly your brothers, have been unfairly stigmatized because of their relation to Ariel Castro. How is everybody dealing with that?
MONTES: Not my brothers. Those were his brothers.
SCHACHER: His brothers, his brothers. Yes.
MONTES: Right. Right. You know, they`re dealing with it now. They have been out and about in public. Luckily, there has been a lot of community support here. And I think finally, people did come to the realization that they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time and basically had nothing to do with this.
MONTES: Especially since the girl never named them. They did state that there was no one else involved.
MONTES: I think people need to be realistic and not put blame where blame does not belong.
PINSKY: Maria, thank you for joining us. Again, please send our thoughts to your, I guess it would be your aunt? Is that his mom, is that right?
MONTES: Right. My aunt --
PINSKY: She`s the one -- another victim in all this and I`m sure this must be just a confusing and terrible time for her. Thank you, panel.
Next up, we`re going to get into how it is that someone in prison who is supposedly watched every 15 to 30 minutes, how do they kill themselves? We have one of our criminal minds here to answer that question.
And later, could a young woman who was angry with her mother, mom, I hate you, you know how teenagers can be, then stab her in the face and neck 70 times? We`re going to look at that after this.
PINSKY (voice-over): After 11 years in hell, raped, beaten, and starved.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let`s turn our attention on Michelle, on Amanda, on Gina, and talk about their resiliency.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`ll die a little every day as you think about the 11 years and atrocities you inflicted on us.
PINSKY: She spoke for herself and the other captives who had been held as sex slaves by this, make no mistake about it, this monster.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not a monster. I`m a normal person. I`m just sick. I have an addiction.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have no psychological terms, I have no legal terms. This sicko fool --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- has a lot of nerve.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I feel that the FBI let these girls down.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, shut up and sit down and go to jail, which is exactly where you belong and where you will stay.
PINSKY: Now, he may actually be segregated in prison because he`s a sex offender. His life may be in danger from other inmates.
PINSKY (on-camera): Back with our co-host, Samantha Schacher, and also with us, Brian Copeland, Danny Cevallos, and Lynn Berry. We were discussing Ariel Castro`s suicide. Joining the panel, Randolph Beasley, he`s a forensic crime scene investigator.
So, Randolph, we`re trying to understand how someone who`s on 30- minute checks for being on a protective custody, I guess they call it, so he`s not hurt by other inmates, 30-minute checks, has the time to tear up a sheet, sling it over something and, I imagine asphyxiate himself?
RANDOLPH BEASLEY, CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATOR: Yes, well, exactly, Dr. Drew. If he has a will and a burning desire to do that, then he can do it. He can have access to that. It was interesting, I pulled the procedures for the Ohio State corrections, and they have a constant watch, which would be like a suicide watch, and then a close watch.
But if you`re not on constant watch, then you have access to things within your cell that you can actually tear up a bed sheet or use your underwear or anything else to asphyxiate yourself and hang yourself, either from a fixture, from maybe the doorway, the edge of the door. Any edge where they can allow the body weight --
PINSKY: Randolph, yes.
BEASLEY: -- to cut it off.
PINSKY: Would you say that with someone that is intent on killing themselves at that level of supervision, it was inevitable or just a matter of time?
BEASLEY: Well, yes, you could say that, because it doesn`t take but a few minutes. And they stagger the intervals of time, but yet, if timing is right, then it can happen, because it`s very easy for that to happen using bed sheets or underwear or other clothing.
PINSKY: Yes. You know, I`ve worked in psychiatric hospital for 20 years and we had to be extremely careful. There couldn`t be pipes exposed, because people could give -- you know, even under a five-minute watch, they could -- it`s unbelievable how people can get to these behaviors.
Danny, my question is to you, though. Does the system, the jail, the county jail there, or - wait -- he was out of county jail or still in county jail. My question is, did they have a liability for this man`s death?
DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Oh, if your viewers were angry about Castro before, they`re going to be plenty angry after this. Doctor, the same Supreme Court precedent that may allow Bradley Manning to get hormone therapy might pose a liability problem for prisons where a prisoner commits suicide.
Where a prison has a deliberate indifference to a serious medical need, the Supreme Court has said that they may be held liable. So, if they deliberately were aware of the high potential for suicide and allowed him the opportunity to do so, people will be very upset to find that the prison potentially could be held liable.
I`m certainly not saying they are, but the Supreme Court has held that it is potentially possible with that deliberate indifference standard, and people will be none too pleased.
PINSKY: I get you that. That`s why I figure Brian has something to say about this. And not only I`m sure you`re not happy with this, he was denied a psychiatric evaluation where this stuff might have been uncovered.
BRIAN COPELAND, BRIANCOPELAND.COM: Well, I`ve got a question for Dr. Beasley, and that is, I`m wondering if based upon his experience, is there any common denominator, any common factor in terms of maybe security procedures or things of that nature in cases where an inmate has killed himself or herself?
BEASLEY: Well, the security factor would be a determination that they would be suicidal, which in this case, my understanding from reading on this is the prison did an evaluation, found him not to be suicidal.
BEASLEY: So, they did not put him in a safe cell.
BEASLEY: A safe cell is much harder to do in a safe cell.
PINSKY: Got it. Lynn, you`re nodding your head. Is that your understanding as well?
LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST: Well, I`m nodding my head because he was given that psychiatric evaluation. And the thing that`s going to be frustrating for a lot of people is there`s going to be a lot of money spent on an investigation, and that`s taxpayers` dollars going to an investigation to find out whether or not this monster committed suicide or whether someone turned their head.
And while we may all be curious, the real message here for these three women is they should stand a little taller tonight, because they endured ten years of a million times worse than a tiny cell 23 hours a day, and they never committed suicide. They are now able to live their life and begin a new chapter, and he was a coward and he ended his life and couldn`t even withstand more than a month. So, those ladies should be standing a little taller tonight.
PINSKY: Thank you, Lynn. We will leave that right here and move to our next chapter, which is about a teenager who is accused of stabbing her mother more than 70 times in the shower. Back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was going to take a shower. That`s when Ryan Hoy (ph) heard thumping sounds coming from the upstairs and his wife call his name. Ryan Hoy (ph) immediately called police for help and informed dispatchers that he was unable to open the bathroom door, but he believed that his wife had been injured and blood was coming from under the door.
Hoy heard his wife say "Jehovah." The door opened. He saw Guzman standing at the doorway holding a knife. She never said anything as she exited the bathroom and was just staring straight ahead when she walked past him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: The "Behavior Bureau" has got a ton to tackle with this one. I`m with my co-host, Samantha Schacher, and our panel.
Eighteen-year-old Isabella Guzman (ph) is accused of having killed her mother, stabbing her 79 times in the face, neck, and torso. According to an affidavit, she e-mailed her mother, writing, quote, "you will pay." Two women, apparently, had a difficult relationship for quite some time. The daughter recently had spat in the mom`s face.
Rita Cosby is investigative journalist and WOR radio host. Can you give us the latest from Aurora, Rita?
RITA COSBY, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: Well, Dr. Drew, this is a horrible case of a daughter brutally killing her own mother. And neighbors and police say they knew there was trouble in the home. She`s going to be in court tomorrow in Aurora for the formal filing of charges. She is facing first-degree murder for allegedly stabbing her mother 79 times, as you said, in the face and the neck.
Now, Isabella Guzman (ph) e-mailed her mother that morning saying "you will pay," and that e-mail prompted the mother to call police. They came to the home. They determined that there were ongoing family issues between the mother and the daughter, and then they said, it appeared to be resolved. Far from it. The mother came back from work.
She hopped in the shower. Her husband heard that thumping noise and then heard a scream. Isabella Guzman blocked him from entering the bathroom and then he saw the blood under the door with the two women inside. And when the door opened, he saw that chilling scene. Isabella Guzman (ph) walking out holding a knife, never saying a word, stared straight ahead and just walked past the stepfather.
COSBY: He then saw the naked body of his wife covered in blood on the floor. Her throat had been slashed. There was a wooden baseball bat lying on the floor under her body and the daughter then fled the scene. She was found hiding out in a parking garage. And the stepfather said the daughter was becoming more and more threatening and disrespectful.
She spit in her mother`s face earlier the next day in the morning, rather. And her mother was so frightened of her own daughter that she asked her husband to sleep in the bedroom with her. She`s now being held without bond for stabbing her mother 31 times in the face and 48 times in the neck.
PINSKY: Thank you, Rita. I appreciate that update.
I`m going to go to my panel now and try to make sense of this. Casey, let`s start with you. This does not, to me, ring of sort of standard domestic violence. There`s something that puts this on another scale, does it not?
JORDAN: Completely and it`s really frightening, because the police were there earlier in the day and decided there wasn`t an ongoing problem, and from what I read in the affidavit, Isabella just went to her room and stayed there while they talked to the mom.
So, what bothers me is that police can see an emotionally disturbed person, an EDP, but if they are cold and calculating enough to simply be calm and not make any noise, not make any threats while the police are there, what bothers me is that all she did with that experience was become more resolved to kill her mother a few hours later when she got home from work. I notice that, you know, she`s at the right age for onset of schizophrenia.
JORDAN: I wouldn`t be surprised if that`s the ultimate diagnosis.
PINSKY: Or mania, too. And then if you sprinkle some drugs in there like amphetamine or something, Wendy, what do you think of that theory?
WALSH: That`s exactly where I was going to go. We`ve talked about this so many times before, Dr. Drew, about parents when they get early warning signs with teenagers to reach out and get help, because we don`t know if this is the onset of a real organic mental illness, and we don`t know if drug use is exasperating some of the symptoms.
So, it`s really important that parents reach out. Never to blame these parents, of course, because it seems like they couldn`t have known.
PINSKY: All right. We`re going to keep this conversation going with the "Behavior Bureau" after this.
PINSKY: Back with our "Behavior Bureau" and my co-host, Samantha Schacher. Eighteen-year-old Isabella Guzman (ph) accused of having stabbed her mother more than 70 times. Now, Casey, Sam, I want to sort of use you as my foil here, if you don`t mind, because we`ve got a pretty clinical panel and we`re floating some theories. Do you understand what we`re going at so far? This is not a rebellious teenager.
PINSKY: This is a real serious problem.
SCHACHER: Right. In fact, I do have a question for the panel.
PINSKY: Go ahead.
SCHACHER: Because the most chilling aspect of the description from the stepfather to me was when he described Isabella coming out of the bathroom --
PINSKY: OK. Yes, sort of staring straight ahead.
SCHACHER: Yes. Stared right through.
PINSKY: OK. And so, Casey, you floated the theory that there might be an early schizophrenia form reaction which would be -- would explain that. (INAUDIBLE) would explain that. Meth would explain that. But you also, Casey, you also were sort of floating a little bit the theory that she might be a psychopath and was just planned this out in a cold-blooded way. Am I getting your theories right?
JORDAN: Yes. I agree that there`s something organic, something else in the affidavit that popped out at me is that this mother sent Isabella to live with her biological father when she was only seven years old because the child was difficult at seven.
JORDAN: That makes me think of the bad seed. I mean, I think whatever mental issues she had were very organic and very deep-seeded and early in life. She had a long history of this. It didn`t just happen.
JORDAN: And I think it`s a good thing the stepfather didn`t try to stop her, because he may have had a knife in his back as well.
PINSKY: Oh, yes. And Judy, I think the point here is, you know, you think you have a rebellious teen, don`t go it alone. Get some consultation, would you agree?
HO: Absolutely, Dr. Drew. This is the thing that worries me. It`s that we, as a culture, as a society, we`re expecting some kind of template or cookie cutter way of noticing people who might commit violent crimes. And we don`t have that. Everybody is always shocked when these types of things happen.
This person was mild-mannered. They were polite. They seemed like a good person. Adding to that, the fact that there`s a halo effect.
HO: We tend to excuse younger people, attractive people.
HO: Thinking they can do no wrong, and so, that`s my biggest concern.
SCHACHER: Evil comes in all different shapes and sizes.
HO: That`s right.
PINSKY: Danine, I`ve got 20 seconds. Take me home, Danine.
MANETTE: Dr. Drew, I am one of the non-therapists on this panel and I`m somebody who believe that we`re always putting a psychological label on someone. Sometimes, people are just born bad or just killers. I`m sorry.
PINSKY: No, and Casey`s sort of saying that.
MANETTE: I think we`re trying to excuse a lot of bad behavior. This is not the first time she put her hands on her mother. I guarantee you that. This started when she was a child.
PINSKY: Guys --
MANETTE: -- and she`s grown to this point and I think that we, you know, need to stop labeling so much and look at behavior.
PINSKY: We`ll keep following this. Thank you, panel. "Last Call" is next.
PINSKY: It is time for the "Last Call," and it goes to Sam.
SCHACHER: Oh, my goodness, Dr. Drew. I mean, what a heavy show. Both of the stories that we covered are horrifying, and I`m afraid that I`m going to have nightmares. So, I want to change course really quickly to something a little bit more lighthearted like and don`t be mad, your birthday. It`s Dr. Drew`s birthday.
PINSKY: Thank you, Samantha.
SCHACHER: Happy birthday.
PINSKY: Got to go. "HLN After Dark" starts right now.