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Teen Charged with First Degree Murder
Aired September 5, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, a mom slashed in the face and neck 79 times. This teen is accused of that savage crime. Her friend is here to tell us about the girl he knows.
And a 30-day sentence for rape, might be a lot longer now. The judge in that case made headlines around the world, says his own sentence may be illegal. Will the behavior bureau say, I told you so?
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening.
My co-host is Samantha Schacher. She`s the host of "Pop Trigger" on the Young Turks Network.
Coming up, the accused teen killer`s aunt is here. She`ll tell us what she has observed about the 18-year-old Isabella Guzman, now charged with first degree murder. She was in court today. We`ll have that drama in just a second.
But, first, I want everyone to look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The female is going to be armed with a knife.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The mom had 31 stab wounds to the face. Just to break it down, 48 to the neck.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What that officer described, pretty gruesome scene.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That he was unable to open the bathroom door but he believed that his wife had been injured a blood was coming from under the door. The door opened. He saw Guzman standing at the doorway holding a knife. She never said anything as she exited the bathroom, was staring straight ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s an 18-year-old female, mixed race, I think it might be with Asian. She is wearing a pink tank top, shorts, one shoe.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Guzman was arrested. Police found her hiding at this nearby parking garage.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They had weapons out, she was on the ground.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To explode like that, nobody saw it coming.
PINSKY: On the phone, I have investigative journalist and WOR Radio host Rita Cosby.
Rita, can you tell me what happened in court today?
RITA COSBY, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST (via telephone): Yes, Dr. Drew, it was a dramatic day in court that first began with a sudden delay. Eighteen-year-old Isabella Guzman refused to leave her jail cell so today`s hearing was pushed backed from morning to the afternoon.
Then, when she finally gets to the courtroom, she`s wearing an orange jumpsuit and shackles. She was making strange faces at the camera. At first smiling, and then pointing to her eyes as she begins to tear up.
It was just so bizarre and so unusual. She was formally charged with murder and what she did to her own mother is horrific. Her stepdad says Isabella was becoming more threatening and sent an e-mail to her mother in the morning of the day that she was killed saying, you will pay.
Hours later, she stabs her mother in the shower, stabbing her 79 times, in the face and neck, then calmly walks by the stepdad carrying the bloody knife and showing no emotion. Today, the judge informed Isabella Guzman in addition to the one count of first degree murder, she`s also facing two counts of crime of violence which could make her eligible for the death penalty in the state of Colorado. Her crime was particularly heinous, again, against her own mother -- Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Thank you so much, Rita.
Joining us to discuss, HLN`s Lynn Berry, and Loni Coombs, former prosecutor and author of "You`re Perfect and Other Lies Parents Tell".
Oh my goodness, ladies. Let`s see -- she was supposed to be in court this morning but she refused to leave her so the hearing had to be pushed back.
Loni, can`t the judge make her leave her cell?
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, CO-HOST: Right.
LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Yes, I was very concerned when I heard that somehow she got people to play along with her desire to not go to court that day. I mean, she`s in custody. This is the law versus an 18-year-old girl. They should have yanked her out of there and put her in front of the judge.
But once again, this reinforced "I can decide what`s going to happen" by the judge letting her stay in her cell until the afternoon when somehow they got her out.
PINSKY: Loni, let me say -- what if they suspected there was something medical or psychiatric going on? Would she have rights to stay behind until somebody evaluated her? Is that a possibility?
COOMBS: That would be something totally different. Yes, if there was some concern there was mental illness or she needed type of medication, then they would say, let`s hold off, let her be evaluated. That would be something her attorney would raise and say, judge, we need a little more time.
What we`ve heard is that she was refusing to come out of that cell.
PINSKY: Got it. The arrest warrant affidavit says Yun-Mi Hoy, the mom, had been found lying on her back unclothed on the bathroom floor with a large laceration across her throat, a great deal of blood on the floor of the bathroom, and Yun-Mi Hoy lying next to a baseball bat.
Lynn, I wonder if you think there`s potential for diminished capacity defense here, do you think?
LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST: You know, it`s interesting, because her stepfather described her walking out of the bathroom with absolutely no reaction, staring straight ahead, walking out with the knife in her hand, covered in blood. And then you see this girl`s behavior in court. It`s not normal.
And, Dr. Drew, I know you don`t like saying or referring to anyone as snapped, because that`s such a generalization. But it`s so hard to understand how an 18-year-old girl --
PINSKY: Well, let me explain it. It`s not that -- sounds like there was a lot strife in the family or whatnot, but it`s not like there`s mounting strife and ba-boom, something happens. It`s 18 to 22 is the developmental window when major mental illness develops first presents, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, paranoia, things like looking at a camera and believing people are watching you.
Sometimes, Sam, that`s good sense in our case.
SCHACHER: What about her eyes? There`s something about here eyes that just gives me the creeps. They`re almost vacant, like there`s nothing there. As opposed to pictures we`ve seen from years before. And sure, makeup on, she`s smiling. But there`s something different that totally creeps me out.
PINSKY: Well, I think what you`re seeing like in the picture right there, it`s something we call flat affect. Flat affect, particularly the setting of real severe circumstances, look at that. Look at that she`s like, look at my eyes.
SCHACHER: Like a horror movie.
PINSKY: I think she`s responding to stimuli. She believes there`s somebody watching her behind the camera. Of course there are, but she`s making more of it than somebody would normally in these circumstances.
COOMBS: But, Dr. Drew, remember she`s a child of the social media generation. They`re always aware, when the camera`s on, they`re mugging to the camera, that`s how they communicate to people through photographs --
BERRY: No, that behavior was not normal.
COOMBS: Someone in the courtroom said at that point she started to cry and tear up, happen making fun of herself or showing, look, I am crying. But she was referring to when she points to her eyes at that point.
PINSKY: Now, there`s --
BERRY: Dr. Drew, I think you`re -- sorry.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Lynn, please. Is that Lynn? Go ahead.
BERRY: I`m curious from you about this mental illness. It`s important to know just because you have mental illness wouldn`t make you have a psychotic episode. But there`s that schizophrenia that you talk about developing in that early age is so important to understand.
PINSKY: Right. It doesn`t mean you`re going to be psychotic if you have major mental illness. But being psychotic disconnects you from reality and can cause you to do things that seem bizarre, out of character, don`t make sense rationally, because you`re not fencing in a rational space.
Now, having said that, Loni, you back me up on this -- just because somebody`s psychotic doesn`t necessarily mean they can`t distinguish between right and wrong and I suspect that`s why the insanity defense is so hard to lay down.
COOMBS: Exactly. In fact, most psychotic people, mentally ill people, still know right from wrong. You can see in their behavior afterwards that they try to cover up, they try to sneak out.
It was interesting when the police were trying to look for her, her cell phone was turned off. They tried to ping off the satellites to find her location. Her cell phone was turned off which is a rare thing for an 18-year-old to do nowadays.
Most likely she might have known that was one way they could track her. But Dr. Drew, I think this is extremely important for parents to understand. There are a lot of parents out there right now that feel in their gut that they might have something going on with their child, yet they`re s afraid to put a label on it and say, they might be mentally ill, they might need help. What does that say about me as a parent? How could I put that label on my child? Yet it`s so crucial when you have that gut instinct to get help.
PINSKY: Yes, Loni, this is exactly -- that`s what I`ll revisit throughout the night which is, in all probability, again, we`re speculating based on what we have here that we`re observing. This is not a parenting issue. The parenting issue is you didn`t ask for your help for your child. You didn`t get them medically evaluated, this all could have potentially been treated and evaluated. Don`t go it alone.
I want to bring in Judge David Young, Florida criminal court judge, host of "Justice with a Snap."
Now, Judge, there are 17 aggravating factors when it comes to the death penalty in Colorado. Along them, the murder itself was especially heinous, atrocious, cruel or depraved.
My question to you, sir, is -- should the prosecutors go for that?
JUDGE DAVID YOUNG, TV COURT JUDGE: Well, I think the prosecutor needs a little more evidence. I think you`re absolutely right, Dr. Drew, that there`s so many issues dealing with mental health of this 18-year-old. Who in their right mind stabs their mother 79 times? Unless it`s like Joan Crawford. Then, you can kind of understand that.
But in this case, you have the affect, the affect of this woman was creepy. And you need to tell me that the parents had no idea that their child was a little bit of a whackadoodle? Really? Come on.
PINSKY: That`s right. I think -- if you wonder whether the parents can be held accountable on a certain way for this kind of stuff, had she acted out on somebody else. But, anyway, Judge, it`s interesting point.
So, had it not been Joan Crawford`s daughter before you, which I know you have sympathy before, had it not been her, if this woman was presented to you, what would go through your mind as you`re adjudicating this case?
YOUNG: Well, what go through my mind is I`d want to have a complete psychological evaluation done. First of all, her ass would be in my courtroom immediately. I would not put up in that nonsense that she didn`t want to come to court.
I`m sorry, sweetheart. It`s not about you, it`s about me, I`m the judge. So, I would get her in court, I would have -- speak to the lawyers, I would have a psychological evaluation done immediately if not soon over an expedited basis, see where we are with her.
Now, are we going to go down the track of mental illness? Are we going to go down the track of maybe it`s mental illness? Or are we going to go to the fact that she`s a hardened criminal, needs to be put away for the rest of her life?
PINSKY: There you go.
YOUNG: Those are decisions judges have to make.
PINSKY: There you go. Very interesting. Thank you, panel.
Next up, the behavior bureau is going to look at this and develop theories what those crazy faces were all about that she was mugging towards the camera today in the courtroom.
And later, the accused teen`s aunt is here and she will tell us about what may be a deadly dynamic in that family.
Don`t go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Neighbors and police say they knew there was trouble inside this house.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wednesday night the teen got into a fight with her mother. The girl`s stepfather called police on a domestic dispute.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s always been very affectionate with me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Three hours before the death, Robert had talked with his daughter at request of his ex-wife.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I thought that I made progress but obviously nothing -- didn`t do nothing. I don`t know what could have happened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Time for the behavior bureau. Back with my co-host, Samantha Schacher. And we`re discussing a teen charged with the murder stabbing death of her own mother.
Back with us, I`ve got Judge David Young, who`s going to join us on the behavior bureau with clinical and forensic psychologist Cheryl Arutt, psychotherapist Wendy Walsh, author of "The 30-Day Love Detox" and Danine Manette, criminal investigator, and author of "Ultimate Betrayal."
This young girl refused to leave her cell to show up in court. Judge Young has said he would not tolerate that. The judge in this particular courtroom for some reason did.
What I`m going to ask my panel starting with Wendy is, does this tell us something about her? Does it set your spidy sense off about what`s going on with her?
Well, you know, I`ve had the suspicion since last night when we talked about this, this the onset of some major organic mental illness. What I want to know, actually, Dr. Drew, maybe someone can weigh in on the legal side, is how do they physically get her from her cell if she doesn`t want to go? Is it a violation of civil rights to cuff her, drag her there by the hair?
PINSKY: Well, that is precisely why I saved the judge for this panel so we could ask those kinds of questions.
Judge Young, what do you got?
YOUNG: Not at all. They can drag her, they can -- kicking and screaming, they can put chains on her to get her before court. There`s no violation of her civil rights.
You know, when you get incarcerated, you give certain rights up. For you to get to court primarily the right you do not give up. And the judge wants you there, baby -- you`re there.
PINSKY: Cheryl, do you agree with Wendy?
CHERYL ARUTT, PSYCHOLOGIST: I agree with Wendy about this being the onset of a major disorder. It looks like a psychotic disorder to me. The age of onset fits. I`m really wondering about paranoia.
I`m wondering about some sort of --
PINSKY: The paranoia, describe for me, because I see that too. People who look at her mugging at the camera don`t understand that can be a manifestation of paranoia. Can you help people understand that?
ARUTT: Well, it can be. I mean, when someone I paranoid, they believe obviously that somebody is out to get them. But it actually is their own aggressive impulses they project out to other people. It can be accompanied by things like delusions or ideas of reference. They can think that somebody behind the camera is out to get them or taunting them. And she could be mugging to try to say, hey, I`m on to you. I`m going to get you and to try to be protecting herself.
PINSKY: All right. OK, Cheryl excellent.
Now, Sam, do you get there? Using you as my spoil, the nonclinical person. It`s not just she`s mugging to people us watching. She believes there`s somebody down there saying or doing or after her in some way.
SCHACHER: That makes sense because something about her just doesn`t sit right with me. I think that`s what it is. It`s like I can`t explain it.
And one thing too that I wanted to ask Wendy or Cheryl is the way that she killed her mom, repeatedly stabbing her in the face, almost to disfigure her mom, what does that say?
ARUTT: It`s overkill, Sam. This is the kind of thing that somebody does -- they`re not just stopping at the level where it will do the job, this is overkill. This incredible passion is a sense she couldn`t make whatever she needed to do go away. And that fits with the kind of psychotic persecutory delusion.
SCHACHER: Why her face?
PINSKY: You`re trying to make sense of nonsensical -- irrational behavior. I caution against that always.
But I see Danine sitting quietly, shaking her head. Danine doesn`t care about any of this.
Go ahead, Danine.
DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: No, because I don`t come from a place of psychology. I come from a place of behavior. I come from a criminalistic background.
And I just am really leery about always assigning these psychoanalysis labels on people when I`ve seen over and over that people just have bad behavior sometimes. It seems like all of this was directed at one person over a period of many, many years, starting at the age of 7. So I`m just wondering how when you have all these psychotic episodes going on, why it`s just towards one person over years. So, it`s not like we`re hearing voices or --
WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: Oh, I`d like to answer that.
PINSKY: Wendy, go ahead.
WALSH: OK, because of the mother figure. It`s not surprising that this echoes the movie "Psycho." Our mother is our lifeline. It is a love/hate relationship that the infant develops with their mother because they are so needy and dependent, at the same time them to have independence. Psychologists call it they have to reach a depressive state where they realize the mother is separate from them in some way.
So, she would be the complete object of, I`ve got to get myself out of this pain, because that`s her primary attachment figure. So --
WALSH: The mother would be the big --
PINSKY: It`s possible, Danine, she`s a bad person.
MANETTE: Is it possible she was just out of control, though? Is it possible that she was just angry, out of control?
PINSKY: It`s possible.
MANETTE: Not brought up with any structure? I mean, is it possible - -
WALSH: If she had a history of aggressive behavior --
PINSKY: Right, there`s no history that --
WALSH: It`s all psychological.
PINSKY: I`m going to get the judge in on this. Hang on.
Here`s the thing that Danine doesn`t understand from my perspective, Judge, which is, I see these kinds of cases regularly, I give them medication and magically this all goes away. That`s not a bad person, that`s someone whose brain is not working right because the medication corrects the problem.
Do you factor that into your thinking? Or are you like Danine and go, the hell with that. A lot of psychotic people still know right and wrong?
MANETTE: Right, and behave themselves.
YOUNG: Oh, to hell with them all is what I say.
No, I really think in this case the lawyers are going to have to try to do whatever they can and I think the best defense for this 18-year-old is the psychotic defense. They`re going to need to save this young child`s life, plain and simple, because I`ve got to tell you, the gruesomeness, the heinousness of this crime, she`s going to be looking at the death penalty. The only thing the defense has, Dr. Drew, is her mental state at the time of the offense. That`s it.
PINSKY: Would you be sympathetic?
PINSKY: You would not be sympathetic?
PINSKY: That`s interesting.
Now, Wendy, you`re the sympathetic voice here. I`ll let Cheryl talk in a second. But, Wendy, you`re the one that`s most sympathetic to this. So, how would you persuade the judge and Danine who`s our biggest problem today? How you do persuade.
MANETTE: Yes, yes. I`m just not hearing it.
WALSH: Well, I want to make something clear, that the person I`m most sympathetic toward is the mother, may she rest in peace and find some peace here. But this daughter exhibited signs of potential mental illness at the age of 7 when the mother couldn`t handle her, couldn`t handle a 7-year-old and sent her off to live with the biological father.
So, along the way, this child with an organic mental -- potentially an organic mental disease, was denied help, denied medication, that could have helped her live a somewhat functional life, and could have protected the mother and society.
So, the question I say is, because this young woman may have a mental illness, do we use our tax money to keep her locked up for 20, 30 years? Or do we find a way to keep her organically sort of stable at this point? We do know our prison population is at least one-third mentally ill people. And you can just blame it on bad behavior, but you also want to understand what the root of it is.
PINSKY: All right. Got to go -- judge, finish, take me home.
YOUNG: The formative years are 18 and 30. What she`s going to learn in prison, if she ever gets out, is going to make her worse than she is today. As a judge you want to protect society and the only way to protect society, Dr. Drew, is to keep that 18-year-old locked up for the rest of her life, period, end of story. Sad but true.
PINSKY: Thank you, panel.
Next, Isabella Guzman`s aunt is here with family history that may help us understand this a little bit better.
And later, the admitted rapist who got 30 days in jail for the crime now may end up spending years in jail, in fact, because the judge is going to reconsider the case.
We`ve got to break this one apart and look at it carefully. What about that judge and the things he was saying? What does it all mean?
Back after this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is a horrible case of a daughter brutally killing her own mother.
PINSKY: Stabbing her 79 times in the face, neck and torso.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They determined that there were ongoing family issues between the mother and the daughter.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This mother sent Isabella to live with her biological father when she was only 7 years old, because the child was difficult at 7.
PINSKY: The daughter recently had spat in the mom`s face.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The stepfather said the daughter was becoming more and more threatening and disrespectful.
PINSKY: She e-mailed her mother writing, quote, "You will pay."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The door opened. He saw Guzman standing at the door holding a knife. She never said anything as she exited the bathroom.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now, 17-year-old Isabella Guzman is charged with first degree murder.
PINSKY: My co-host Samantha Schacher. And joining us, CNN contributor Danny Cevallos, Lynn Berry, and Danine Manette.
We`re talking about the stabbing death of a Colorado mother. Her teen daughter Isabella Guzman is the alleged killer.
Joining us exclusively, we have Isabella`s aunt Melanie Guzman.
Melanie, let me -- first of all, thank you for joining us and, of course, our condolences for this horrific circumstance in your family.
MELANIE GUZMAN, SUSPECT`S AUNT (via telephone): Thank you. I appreciate that.
PINSKY: Do you -- what did you think when you first heard your kneels had done this? Did you believe she was capable of this?
GUZMAN: Not -- not at all. No. No way.
PINSKY: How do you make sense of it?
GUZMAN: It`s very difficult to make sense of it because it doesn`t make sense.
PINSKY: Now, there are reports of ongoing disputes between Isabella and her mom. Can you tell us about that or did you know anything about it?
GUZMAN: Yes, I do know everything about it. And I do know everything about, you know, the stepfather as well.
PINSKY: Can you shed some light on what was going on between she and her mom?
GUZMAN: Well, I -- I believe it`s because, you know, boyfriends. And their religion, got to respect that, and the mother didn`t like it.
PINSKY: So -- but, Melanie, hang on a second. I want to make sense of this.
You`re saying that because this young girl we`re looking at, Isabella, wanted to have boyfriends and the mom had an issue with that, that caused Isabella to go over the edge? That sounds like standard teenage stuff.
GUZMAN: No, no, no, no, no. There`s a lot more to it. A lot more to that.
PINSKY: OK, can you shed some light?
GUZMAN: I -- because it`s such a high legal profile case --
PINSKY: Melanie, without divulging convalescences can you help us understand? Was there real serious conflict between the two of them? Were they physical? Was it really an escalated problem over years?
GUZMAN: It was an escalated problem. And -- which included Ryan.
PINSKY: Who`s that, now?
GUZMAN: Ryan Hoy, the stepfather.
PINSKY: OK. Was Isabella ever treated for mental illness, to your knowledge? Was there any criminal past? Was there any history of drug use?
PINSKY: Any of these things?
GUZMAN: No, not at all. I wish that -- I think she needs help now.
PINSKY: Oh, for sure.
GUZMAN: And I`m devastated.
PINSKY: I wonder if my panel has any questions for Melanie. Danny, how about you?
CEVALLOS: Yes, before this, did you think that Isabella required any medical treatment, any mental health treatment? Or is it only as a result of that this that you say she may need mental services?
GUZMAN: Danny, can you introduce yourself? Because I don`t know who you are.
PINSKY: Danny is an attorney, a CNN contributor here, and he`s asking again about whether or not there was any antecedent history of mental health issues.
GUZMAN: Danny, what`s your last name?
GUZMAN: Sorry, what was your question? I`m sorry.
PINSKY: I`m going to restate it again, Melanie.
CEVALLOS: So, the question is --
PINSKY: Go ahead, Danny.
CEVALLOS: The question is this. Obviously this is a horrific incident. Prior to this, did you ever observe anything that gave you concern about Isabella?
CEVALLOS: Lynn, your question.
BERRY: Did you ever see them argue? Between one another? We know that they had problems since she was 7ears old. The stepfather reports that she had --
GUZMAN: Well, that`s erroneous, I`m going to tell you about that whole 7-year-old thing, that`s completely erroneous.
PINSKY: Tell us about that.
GUZMAN: That`s completely erroneous.
PINSKY: What happened?
GUZMAN: Well, what happened was that the -- the stepfather made the home impossible. And she went to live with my brother.
PINSKY: And your brother is her biological father?
PINSKY: OK. Danine, I wonder if you have a question.
MANETTE: I do. I`m wondering whether or not -- my name is Danine Manette and I`m a criminal investigator and I`m also one of the people on the show. I`m wondering whether or not she had any conflicts with anyone else, you know, that you -- other than her and her mother? Did she have conflicts with other people or was it just a situation that her and her mother seemed to not get along at times like this?
GUZMAN: I think it was a situation, you know, of religious thing also. And I never heard of anything in the past.
PINSKY: OK, Sam?
GUZMAN: Until, you know, this --
SCHACHER: Quick question. Melanie, really quickly, the way that she`s acting in court, so defiant and making faces into the camera, is that -- does that surprise you?
GUZMAN: I know her so well that I know she`s quirky. She`s very, you know -- she`s an artist, she`s a songwriter, she`s a singer. She just, like -- she`s in her head.
PINSKY: Well, being in one head --
GUZMAN: And I think now it`s -- it`s hitting her hard.
PINSKY: All right. Well, thank you, Melanie. I appreciate you joining us.
Next up, we`re going to switch gears. Thank you, panel. The rapist who had gotten 30 days in jail is going back to court. It turns out his sentence -- the sentence itself may have been illegal. We`re going to discuss it. Back after this.
VINNIE POLITAN, HLN ANCHOR: Coming up top of the hour on "HLN After Dark," we`re going to talk about inappropriate relationships between teachers and students. Special guest tonight, Dr. Drew himself.
RYAN SMITH, HLN ANCHOR: Yes. He`ll be here to weigh in on the bold question. Should all sexually abusive teachers face harsher punishments? Should they be held to a higher standard, Vinnie?
POLITAN: Yes, that`s the question. We`re going to have the prosecution versus the defense. We`ve got a guy who represented a teacher/cheerleader who says no. "After Dark."
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Samantha Schacher and our panel. Controversy continues. The judge and the 30 days for rape case has backed down and ordered a new sentencing hearing. His original sentence may have been illegal. The question is, can he right a wrong? Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want justice. I want the judge removed and I want the sentence changed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One online petition urging Judge Baugh to resign is now nearing 50,000 signatures. Another, over 70,000.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not sure just what I was attempting to say at that point, but it didn`t come out correct. What I said was demeaning to all women.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: New details about how the shockingly light sentence of a rapist, just 30 days in jail, might be reversed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The dream scenario for us, that he would do 20 years, with 10 of those years suspended.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I owe all our fellow citizens an apology.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Rita Cosby joins us again with an update on this story. Rita, what do you got?
VOICE OF RITA COSBY, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: Dr. Drew, the state district judge, Judge Baugh, has now gotten a big wakeup call and has ordered a new sentencing hearing tomorrow in the case that created a national outrage. He recently sentenced the former high school teacher who had sex with a 14-year-old student to just 30 days in jail.
During the original sentencing, this judge even shamed the victim, saying she was, quote, "older than her chronological age and was in control of the situation." Again, the teacher`s 54, the victim was 14. And sadly, she committed suicide after the sexual assault came to light. Now, after lots of public protests and more than 100,000 people signing online petitions, demanding that he resigned, the judge has reversed course.
And again, there`s a hearing tomorrow. The 71-year-old described himself as a blithering idiot and now says he misread the state law and that he now believes the sleazy teacher should have two years, at least, behind bars.
PINSKY: Rita, thank you for that report. Now, Judge Young, I want to go straight to you. You`re the one that has sat in the chair that we`re looking at here. This very Judge Baugh himself who described himself, as Rita said, as a blithering idiot. How do you put this all together? Is it time for him to step down?
Should he -- come to pressure? Can he right the wrong? I mean, it`s so confusing to understand what is going through this guy`s mind.
JUDGE DAVID YOUNG, TV COURT JUDGE: Drew, when I first heard this story, I thought to myself, you really are a blithering idiot.
SCHACHER (ph): Yes.
YOUNG: To show such callousness towards a victim of a crime, to show such prejudicial conduct towards women the way this guy did, he violated, and I looked up the rules of judicial conduct from Montana. He broke three rules which would warrant, in my mind, because I sat on the council for Florida. He has to be removed.
If he doesn`t step down voluntarily, the commission needs to meet and get him out of office, because he does not represent the judiciary well. And I`d like to apologize as a former judge to everyone out there for this man. He does not represent what I represented for 15 years. Moreover, legally now, Drew, a judge cannot redo a sentence once a sentence is done.
You lose jurisdiction. And I don`t know why he`s going to do that, but I think he feels guilty and the best thing he could do for the system is get out of town, now.
PINSKY: Lynn, what do you say?
LYNN BERRY, HOST: Well, the judge is actually making a great point. And the prosecution is saying the judge is actually breaking the law, which is that you have to appeal this and take it to the Supreme Court. The judge can`t redo his sentence even if it was an illegal sentence. The defense agrees. They actually asked for the hearing to be canceled tomorrow. It`s still on the books.
BERRY: So, you know, this judge is up for re-election next year and this is the argument that a lot of people have that judges shouldn`t go through an election process, and some jurisdictions and some federal courts do not allow judges to be voted into office.
PINSKY: I want to hear from attorneys. Danny, you first.
DANNY CEVALLOS, ATTORNEY: Judge, I got to respectfully dissent with you and here`s why. If we called for off with their heads every time a judge, a prosecutor or a defense attorney misapplied the law, there would be no lawyers left. The reality is, this happens all the time. That`s why we have appellate courts.
YOUNG: Not with gender bias. This judge acted gender bias against his victim (ph) and I`m sorry, there`s no excuse for it.
CEVALLOS: No, no. Hold up, judge, Hold up, judge. Hold on. Quiet, quiet, hold on. There are two issues here. Number one, did the judge misapply the law? Number two, we all agree, the comments he made on the bench were ridiculous. However, I suggest that if he had made those comments as bad as they were, but gave a legal sentence, we wouldn`t be here because there`s nothing to discuss.
The real issue is, was it a legal sentence? And if it was not, then we can talk about appeals. But the comment he made was terrible. But the reality is, we have a federal judges, for example, are appointed for life to avoid exactly this kind of public pressure. It`s way the our constitution designed it. So, we can`t have a gotcha society where we throw judges off the bench.
YOUNG: You`re subject to removal, plain and simple. He violated canon of the code.
PINSKY: Danny, now quiet. Loni, finish what you have.
LONI COOMBS, ATTORNEY: Danny, I don`t think you can separate out the two. I mean, you cannot get to a 30-day sentence on this -- no you can`t. First of all, it`s illegal. But second of all, you can`t based on --
CEVALLOS: Read the statute.
COOMBS: A 14-year-old girl, this wasn`t just discrimination against women, this was discrimination against children. She was a 14-year-old girl. And there`s no way he would have given him that 30-day sentence without really believing --
CEVALLOS: Hey, look --
COOMBS: -- those comments that he`s now taking back, but he clearly believed on that.
CEVALLOS: Listen, if we`re in Starbucks having a conversation about it, I`ll agree with you. But the only thing I know is the law. And as I read that code, if you read the Montana code, it is a code that could be misapplied. However, it will be dealt with on appeal and dealt with properly.
PINSKY: Hold on, got to take a break. And next up, you will hear from the teenage victim`s mother herself. Back after this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I made some references to the victim`s age and control.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Older than her chronological age.
PINSKY: There`s no such thing as somebody`s older than their age.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What I said was demeaning to all women.
JENNY HUTT, ATTORNEY: This is not an OK sentence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And irrelevant to the sentence.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He is a person who fails so deeply to understand the experience of victims.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
PINSKY: Time again for the "Behavior Bureau." My co-host, Samantha Schacher, and of course, the Montana judge who sentenced an admitted rapist to 30 days in jail, sentence may be illegal as we were discussing and there`s a chance, apparently, on appeal the rapist could have actually spend years behind bars.
With us, criminologist, Casey Jordan, host of "Wives with Knives" on Investigation Discovery, Wendy Walsh, Cheryl Arutt, and Lynn Berry are back.
All right. Casey, I`ve been dying to talk to you all night. We`ve had technical problems --
PINSKY: -- to get through to you, but this is a question I want to put right to you which is how could a judge not understand what constitutes rape?
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: He is a blithering idiot. He is a self- admitted blithering idiot. And the thing is that he`s 71 years old and he`s simply living in the ice age. The thing is that now that it`s been pointed out to him, he`s capable of reading from a written statement, but he still wants to fix his mistake just as a PR gesture.
What he really needs to do is resign instead of going, wait, wait, I want a second bite at the apple. Let me come back and resentence the guy so that you`ll calm down and I can get re-elected. The truth is, and the attorney general is working on this, it`s illegal for him to try to fix his illegal sentence.
So, hopefully, that hearing tomorrow will get canceled, and on appeal, they`ll be able to resentence this rapist to what he deserves, which is going to be a minimum of two years and as many as 20.
PINSKY: Wendy, the judge said this 14-year-old was as much in control of the situation as her 49-year-old teacher.
PINSKY: You know, in -- yes.
WENDY WALSH, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGIST: OK. Here`s what he is confused. He`s confused biological age and emotional age. We do know that young girls are hitting puberty earlier and earlier and earlier. And in fact, in our anthropological past, many girls didn`t hit their first period until they were 18, 19, 20, or 21 years old.
So, in this last generation, because many reasons, mainly because we eat a lot better and have better nutrition, you`re seeing the visual -- guys are seeing the visual effects of puberty and assume that these girls are women. But in fact, it takes years to develop the emotional skills to be able to have any power against somebody who has all that life experience.
PINSKY: Absolutely. Under 16, when something like this happens, it is profoundly, profoundly traumatizing. Teresa`s own mother spoke with Anderson Cooper less than an hour ago. Here`s how she reacted when she`d heard that her child raped -- the rapist of her child, who by the way was connected with the child`s suicide, would only get 30 days in jail. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I freaked out. Despair, unbelief, horror. It was inappropriate. And sometimes, you just got to tell a judge he sucks.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: And you told him that? You yelled that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
COOPER: The judge, I mean, made --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- have a problem with my temper.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Cheryl, big people take care of little people. How do we get people to understand that?
CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., CLINICAL & FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I think we need to say it as you`re saying it now as often as we possibly can. And I have to tell you, Dr. Drew, that I think that this judge has some very disturbing things in common with the defendant namely that he does not think that the rules apply to him and doesn`t recognize when he`s committing an abuse of power.
He cannot just give himself a mulligan and redo this case. Another higher court gets to hear that. And this is kind of a parallel process to him overlooking the fact that this guy didn`t think the rules applied to him either, got kicked out of his sex offender program, and he`s just -- this guy`s just going rogue and doing whatever he wants.
PINSKY: Lynn, what do you want to say here?
BERRY: The point is that the judge was ruling on a plea deal, not the actual rape charges. Now, when the victim committed suicide, the prosecutors threw out the case if he would admit to one charge of rape, not face any jail time and go to this sex offender program. Well, he violated that. So, he went before Judge Baugh and that`s what he`s ruling on.
PINSKY: Stop there. I want to take a break and more with the "behavior bureau," but we`re going to get into what it means about this guy that he wasn`t able to complete a sex offender program which was ordered by the court. What does that mean about the guy? Back after this.
PINSKY: Back with the "Behavior Bureau" and my co-host, Samantha Schacher, and we are talking about the rapist who got a 30-day sentence for a crime that led to a suicide. The rapist could have avoided jail time altogether as Lynn told us, but he got kicked out of a sex offender treatment program.
Casey, I used to run -- I`ve run programs like this. And when somebody is court ordered to an outpatient treatment program, and they can`t even comply with the basic structure of that program for a few months, what does that tell you about that guy?
JORDAN: I`m going to argue it really suggests that he is incurable. I mean, the last time we saw this, well, it`s happened many times, but in the news, do you remember Mary Kay Letourneau?
JORDAN: She had a seven-year sentence suspended, if she could just do her six months, get out, and stay away from the victim, she could stay out of prison forever. Instead, the very night she got out, she was with him, getting pregnant within 24 hours. And I see this guy as -- well just -- he was somebody who could not meet the program`s requirements. It`s a program of honesty, and he wasn`t honest with his counselors.
PINSKY: Cheryl what Casey is saying is that not that he is untreatable, is that he`s unwilling to participate in treatment or capitulate to treatment and is therefore incurable. If you don`t participate in treatment, we can`t treat you.
ARUTT: That`s exactly right. You know, it`s like the joke about the light bulb, the light bulb has to really want to change. We cannot treat people who do not want to be helped. And if the motivation is not there, even with the looming threat of imprisonment for years or forever, then that tells us something very important about how motivated this person is to keep offending.
SCHACHER: Dr. Drew, shouldn`t he still have -- let`s say he did go to treatment. Shouldn`t he still have had to pay for raping this poor girl?
PINSKY: Well, that`s why -- I don`t know what went on in the plea bargain. Lynn, maybe you know more about that.
BERRY: Well, the judge did have the opportunity to throw the book at him, so to speak, in this violation of his plea deal. So, he could have gone for the worst of the worst sentence related to the plea deal, but he didn`t. And we talk about how anger, you know, has just erupted over this guy. Well, it`s because he claims that it was irrelevant, his statements were irrelevant to the sentence.
It goes to his state of mind. Why would he have chosen the absolute mandatory minimum? That`s the point.
PINSKY: Interesting. Wendy, do you agree with Casey that if he had completed treatment, it still might not have helped?
WALSH: Well, you know, it`s hard to know what the outcome would be, but it clearly shows, at least, a maybe a level of narcissism here that he thought he was above it all, and here, he was given a really firm second chance. I mean, he had so little that he had to do to like, you know, get out with his mulligan and it`s done.
But no, no, no. he couldn`t even do the basics. And it shows me that maybe he has this level of sociopathy where he thinks, I`m above it all.
PINSKY: Yes. That`s right, Wendy. Those are those guys when they`re playing cat and mouse. Casey, you want to finish me up?
JORDAN: Yes. Keep in mind that he got the plea bargain, Samantha, because the star-witness was deceased. It was a gift that was given to him. He had the chance to reform. He could have rehabilitated himself, stuck with the program, and instead, he violated. He really should have the book thrown at him now.
PINSKY: There you go, guys. Thank you, panel. "Last Call" is next.
PINSKY: "Last Call" goes to Sam.
SCHACHER: Dr. Drew, I can`t wrap my head around the fact that this rapist of a teacher was initially just sentenced to treatment. How is that fair?
PINSKY: The time for treatment is before the heinous act. That all I`m saying.
Guys, thanks for watching. "HLN After Dark" starts right now. I will, in fact, see you there.