Return to Transcripts main page
Wife Calls 911 on Zimmerman
Aired September 9, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, George Zimmerman in trouble with the law again. His wife calls 911, claiming he threatened her with a knife and a gun.
SHELLIE ZIMMERMAN, GEORGE ZIMMERMAN`S WIFE (via telephone): I don`t know what he`s capable of. I`m really scared.
PINSIKY: She says he is selfish and feels invincible since his acquittal, but George`s brother feels differently. My behavior bureau weighs in.
And they`re back. Ms. Ali and Frank Taaffe both here with their reactions.
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening.
My co-host is attorney and Sirius XM radio host Jenny Hutt, who appears to have joined uses just off the set of "A Midsummer Night`s Dream" or something. There`s some very dust (ph) in your hair there.
But this has been a very interesting day, everybody. We`ve gone from believing that Zimmerman is up to his old tricks and now, we`re hearing that perhaps he didn`t have a gun or perhaps he was not so violent. It`s getting very, very confusing. We`re going to try to sort it out.
Frank Taaffe and Ms. Ali will have a lot to say about this and they will join me just ahead. The story is still developing as I said. Take a look at this.
OPERATOR: 911, do you need police, fire or medical?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We received a 911 phone that there was a domestic issue happening at the residence.
SHELLIE ZIMMERMAN: He`s in his car and he continually has his hand on his gun, and he keeps say step closer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The caller was Shellie, and she said that she was being threatened with a handgun.
OPERATOR: Step closer and what?
SHELLIE ZIMMERMAN: And he`s going to shoot us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Zimmerman was threatening her and her father with a weapon.
SHELLIE ZIMMERMAN: He punched my dad in the nose.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are doing an investigation right now in reference to domestic violence call.
SHELLIE ZIMMERMAN: I don`t know what he`s capable of. I`m really, really scared.
PINSKY: Now, we`re hearing police say that no one saw a gun on him or at the scene at all. Trying to figure this out.
Joining us: Mark Eiglarsh, attorney at speaktomark.com. HLN`s own Lynn Berry. Judge David Young, former Florida criminal court judge and host of "Justice with a Snap." Danine Manette, criminal investigator and author of "Ultimate Betrayal."
HLN legal analyst Jean Casarez is on the phone.
Jean, can you help make sense for us and give us the latest?
JEAN CASAREZ, HLN LEGAL ANALYST (via telephone): You know, here`s what we`ve learned just at the moment. There is surveillance video from inside the house and outside the house. Police are looking that and that it is time consuming because there is so much video.
Now, we don`t know if this comes from the video, or comes from an admission from Shellie, but police are saying there was no gun on George Zimmerman, no gun found at the scene on the premises, so that 911 call that has a gun interspersed through it, they`re saying that Shellie Zimmerman assumed George Zimmerman had a gun.
PINSKY: And we some breaking news tonight as well, CNN has just obtained new pictures of George Zimmerman`s father-in-law`s nose. There we go. She also alleged that he had broken her father`s nose, you can see there`s sort of barely a mark over his nose.
I heard the public information officer telling Nancy that there was no treatment rendered, and this now is the iPad -- let`s go back -- that Shellie said he had taken some knife to the iPad. And I guess that`s the iPad in pieces there.
OK. Now, listen, reaction. Mark, what do we make of all of this?
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Well, we do not know what happened. That`s clear. But we do know, here`s some facts, what Shelley claim that a 911 call has not been corroborated, in fact contradicted by the evidence we`re hearing from police.
Second of all, Shellie Zimmerman, fact, is 13 days into her probationary sentence for perjury.
Fact, they`re going through a bitter divorce, and in my experience, having handling these types of cases for over 20 years, people tend to exaggerate or lie and there`s an inherent motive, or bias or interest when someone is telling the police what occurred.
So, I`m not necessarily believing everything that took place from 911 call.
PINSKY: Right. And, Lynn, everyone knows that -- well, certainly, Shellie knows that if she makes a 911 call, people like us are going to be very interested.
LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST: In a second. In a second.
But you guys just a few moments ago, just before I came on your show, Mark O`Mara was on Anderson Cooper`s show, and he admitted that George Zimmerman did a gun on his body, but it was never shown. That is George Zimmerman`s attorney confirming he did have a gun on his body, but it was never shown. That`s an important development, because you hear police say things like there was never a gun recovered. Shellie Zimmerman admits she never saw a gun.
That also goes to police speak in a sense that they never physically took a gun from the scene, that`s because George Zimmerman has a permit to carry, they never took it from him, because he wasn`t charged with any crime.
So, all of these facts are important and they`re going to develop as this comes out. We have surveillance video that we still need to see. There`s dash cam video coming out tomorrow. So all of these things will come together in the end.
PINSKY: And Shellie made other claims as well. Here now is more of her 911 call.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
OPERATOR: Is he still there?
SHELLIE ZIMMERMAN: Yes, he is, and he`s trying to shut the garage door on me. He punched my dad in the nose. My dad has a mark on his face. I saw his glasses were on the floor. And took my iPad out of my hand and smashed it and cut it with a pocketknife.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, Judge Young, these are powerful accusations. What do you think he could face if, let`s say, Shellie decides to push charges? Or police even independently decide to prosecute?
JUDGE DAVID YOUNG, FORMER CRIMINAL COURT JUDGE: Well, if the gun is involved, he`ll need somebody like Mark Eiglarsh to defend him because it`s a real serious offense.
If there`s no gun involved, it`s a simple domestic violence, you`ll see a misdemeanor judge and there`ll be a special domestic violence court that Zimmerman will go into and they`ll have a trial, just like, you know, any other trial.
Now, it`s interesting to note, though, Dr. Drew, you have to separate the divorce case from the domestic violence case. There are two different entities.
And I heard Mark comment about there`s a divorce case, and that people use things as leverage. Well, in Florida, you don`t need leverage in a divorce case. We have no-fault divorce. So, this one, they can get a divorce at anytime.
Where you see leverage in divorce cases is when you have issues dealing with child custody. But that`s not here.
So, I don`t see the relevancy of it. I think what`s important to note is that George Zimmerman`s mental state is constantly being called into question and --
EIGLARSH: David --
YOUNG: I think he`s a couple -- short of a --
EIGLARSH: David, she`s trying to negotiate with him. They have two dogs together. She`s trying to get things, you know?
YOUNG: Yes, what`s the point of that?
EIGLARSH: That could be her motivation.
PINSKY: Judge, when Mark appears before you, you`re both in Miami, does he call you David or does he actually show a little more respect when he`s actually in your courtroom?
EIGLARSH: "Justice with a Snap".
YOUNG: Dr. Drew, if he had respect for me, he would wear good shoes in my courtroom. He doesn`t not wear good shoes in my courtroom.
PINSKY: He`s busy blinding you with his ties. I`m just saying --
EIGLARSH: OK, all right, boys.
PINSKY: You`re trying to ring in.
BERRY: Mark -- are we done talking about the shoes? Mark, you make a great point. When you`re dealing with a divorce situation, especially because they`re fighting over these dogs, she wants custody of these dogs, it`s like their children. They don`t have kids.
And so, she wants leverage for anything. It`s not to be granted a divorce, it`s to be granted things like, you know, it seems trivial, pots and pans, but you know that old say in "When Harry Met Sally", all of a sudden, you`re fighting over this Rogers wagon wheel coffee table.
You know, that`s what happens during divorce. People turn into something other than themselves.
DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: Dr. Drew, what I don`t seem to understand is what does it take for the Sanford Police to effectuate arrests in cases here? We have a situation where we have a frantic woman calling, where we have a supposed neighbor who may or may not have seen what Shellie says she saw on the tape. We have broken property. We have someone with a bruised nose.
So, we have obvious corroborating evidence that`s available for the police, and I`m not understanding why an arrest was not made, even if she didn`t give a statement, even if she got lawyered up before she decided to get a statement?
PINSKY: Jenny, do you have any thoughts on that?
MANETTE: Other people that were there that should have been able to cooperate.
PINSKY: Yes. And, in fact, one of them was his bodyguard, which I found bizarre.
MANETTE: Wait, wait --
PINSKY: They`re asking the bodyguard to move aside so the police could lower their weapons at him? Very bizarre. Very bizarre.
But, Jenny, what are you thoughts?
JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: But they did take him in, they just didn`t ultimately charge him with anything and they let him go.
But, listen, what my thought is, Dr. Drew, is that she`s angry with him for a whole host of reasons, as she should be. I mean, the guy did kill a teenager. I understand he was found not guilty.
PINSKY: But, Jenny, she`s mad -- the behavior bureau is going to get into us in a few minutes. She`s mad because he has a new girlfriend. That`s what`s going on here. That`s where a lot of this (INAUDIBLE) drama.
Danine, now it makes sense to you, huh?
MANETTE: That will do it.
YOUNG: A new girlfriend would mean you punch your father-in-law in a nose? Dr. Drew, if anyone -- if this happened to anyone else, any domestic violence case, they would have taken George Zimmerman into custody, and he would have had a cooling off period for at least 24 hours, but he was treated differently.
YOUNG: Because he was George Zimmerman.
That`s absolutely wrong. It`s a double standard, and it doesn`t bode well for the police department.
PINSKY: OK, Danine --
EIGLARSH: Well --
PINSKY: Hang on, Mark.
Danine, there you go. The judge has it.
MANNETTE: Yes, that`s my point. That`s my point.
I`m not saying that he needed to have been charged right away. But the fact that he wasn`t even arrested, when we have a visible injury on somebody, on one of the complainants, like I said, even if she didn`t give a statement, there`s enough corroborating evidence out there at the scene that they should have arrested the guy.
PINSKY: OK. Mr. Defense Lawyer, take me home, finish this up. Why wasn`t he arrested?
EIGLARSH: OK. All right. First, David makes a good point. Most defendants post-O.J. murder case when the system changed, most people would be taken into custody, and usually it`s the guy. That`s number one.
However, kudos to the police for not rushing to judgment in this particular case. Why arrest him right now if they haven`t yet seen the corroborating evidence? Obviously, they don`t have probable cause to make the arrest at this point.
PINSKY: All right, you guys. We`re going to go on.
Ms. Ali and Frank Taaffe join us together again. Oh, my goodness, it makes me nervous looking at them in the same screen.
And later, does Zimmerman`s latest brush with the law prove that this guy has a pattern or he`s just unlucky? We`ll try to figure it out.
Well, Jen, you`ll be there. Behavior bureau as well.
Back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FRANK TAAFFE, GEORGE ZIMMERMAN`S FRIEND: They couldn`t find probable cause. And it was only until Benjamin -- let me finish!
SHAHRAZAD ALI, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well -- no, let`s talk about the peace officer. Are you going to yak or you want me to talk?
Ms. Ali, I would like to give us a personal invitation to my home. I`m a great Italian cook, if you like Italian food.
ALI: I would rather bash my own head on the concrete like Zimmerman before I go out to dinner with Frank Taaffe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. Back with my co-hosts, Jenny Hutt, Mark Eiglarsh, Judge David Young are still here.
I`m going to ask everyone to play nice in the sandbox tonight. We`re, of course, talking about George Zimmerman`s detention by police today, after his wife, or perhaps ex-wife, had called the cops on him.
Together again, George Zimmerman`s friend, that`s Frank Taaffe, and Shahrazad Ali, social commentator and author of "The Blackman`s Guide to Understanding the Blackwoman."
I will start with Ms. Ali. Again, everybody, let`s try to be our civil selves tonight. Ms. Ali, your reaction to this story tonight.
ALI: Well, I think that Zimmerman is just benefitting again from the privilege of looking like he`s white, there`s that look.
I also think that in the black community, all we have to do is to say a black man threatened us. He didn`t have to have no gun, no knife, no nothing. If we say they threatened me, officer, they take him to jail. There`s no question about it.
And the other thing is Zimmerman has the O.J. Simpson complex, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Tell me. What is that?
ALI: He`s having these Freudian accidents and mistakes. He`s trying to get caught. He wants to be punished. He deserves to be punished. He`s just, you know, so wrapped up in it.
He knows he did wrong and he wants to be punished. So, he`s going to keep doing things until finally they get him.
PINSKY: All right. Frank, I`m going to give you a chance now. But, Frank, it is kind of strange, don`t you think that he -- he seemed to be -- for people -- it`s weird that he seemed to be getting what looked like special treatment. What are your thoughts on that?
TAAFFE: Well, first of all, I have to agree with you, Dr. Drew. It doesn`t seem like it, but you know, we have procedures. And the law enforcement followed the procedures. It was a domestic dispute. They separated the parties, they got one side, the other side.
And I can guarantee you, if there was any probable cause, George would have been taken to jail, no doubt about it.
PINSKY: Frank, let me ask you this. Frank, I will refrain --
ALI: No, he wouldn`t have.
PINSKY: Hold on, Ms. Ali.
ALI: There was probable cause with Trayvon Martin, and he wasn`t taken to jail.
PINSKY: I just want -- I`m more curious, Frank, and I will refrain from calling you Taaffe the way Nancy does, is that he tell us anything about what`s going on in the relationship between Shellie and George? It seems pretty crazy right now.
TAAFFE: Well, let`s go back to the night of the shooting, back in February of 2012. George and Shellie were separated on the night of the shooting. Actually, she was staying with a friend a couple weeks before that. And on the night of the shooting, Shellie Zimmerman wasn`t even in their marital house.
Then, you know, you compound that with the shooting, then you compound that with everything they`ve been through.
PINSKY: Public scrutiny --
TAAFFE: Dr. Drew, let me ask you this.
PINSKY: Go ahead.
TAAFFE: Is there any real handbook -- is there any real handbook that --
PINSKY: A divorce?
TAAFFE: That divorced couples are supposed to go through?
ALI: You compound that --
TAAFFE: There`s a loss of hostilities.
ALI: -- with the fact that he got that $135,000.
PINSKY: Well, that she lied about, let`s be fair. She`s convicted of lying about something in a court of law. That`s a pretty big deal.
TAAFFE: Well, that`s an excellent point, because now we have her as a convicted perjurer, and she`s on the phone. Anyone can call 911. And here in the state of Florida, you know, anybody did call 911, but the police did show up. They were there, you know very quickly.
ALI: They are both liars. They are both liars.
HUTT: But it`s not the first time. It`s not the first time that someone was called that he was accused of a domestic dispute, is it, Frank?
PINSKY: That`s right. He had a previous domestic violence incident in 2005. He had -- they took out restraining orders on each other.
TAAFFE: There was one -- OK. There was one incident. It happened about eight years ago with another young woman, who they had another --
ALI: Oh, give me a break.
TAAFFE: And she filed a temporary -- listen. Just listen.
ALI: Taaffe, you better talk to your lawyers.
TAAFFE: A temporary restraining order was placed on him, vice versa, and guess what? It was dismissed when they went to trial. We have procedures here. We have civil procedures.
PINSKY: OK. I`ve got you, Frank. I`ve got you, buddy.
Listen, now, let me show you, I went to -- if control room would mind getting the attorney, Shellie`s attorney, made some comments today that were kind of interesting. He spoke, I said male or female attorney. He for the first time today, and here`s what he said. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s taken a while, he showed up. He`s taken pictures, she`s telling him she`s individual videoing, and things escalate. The next thing you know, there`s something going on inside the garage and the hallway.
Shellie maybe loses a bit of her video, and he trying to start it again, and then her iPad is taken away, an iPad that he gave to her back I think in 2011, it has a nice inscription on the back, and it`s taken away from her by George, and it`s busted.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is it true he took it over his knee and then took a knife to it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, there`s --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A photo of it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, there`s some indication, a knife comes out, the thing is pried apart and ripped up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Jenny, as the female legal consultant here, it seems like a woman scorned here. There`s a lot of stuff going on. No?
HUTT: Look, listen, I understand why she feels like a woman scorned, Dr. Drew. Frankly, Frank, here this woman was, on the night that they were purportedly separated, and he shot Trayvon, she then stood by him during the whole trial. She didn`t come like the rest of us with guns blazing, if you will, saying he`s a bad guy. I do think --
ALI: N, no, she stood by him.
PINSKY: What`s that, Ms. Ali?
TAAFFE: Nobody has a perfect marriage, Jenny.
HUTT: Of course not.
ALI: She stood by him --
TAAFFE: Compound this with those events --
PINSKY: Ms. Ali --
TAAFFE: Ms. Ali, why do you always want to hit the race button on this thing?
ALI: He started getting donations. She stood by him after he started getting the donations and that money. That`s what she`s mad about now. She thinks he`s going to give the money to the new girlfriend, but she got 100 days of community service. She should be made to do that 100 days working for the Trayvon Martin foundation.
PINSKY: Judge Young, I wonder if you have a question for either of my guests, Judge Young?
YOUNG: The whipped cream on top of the cupcake is the fact that the iPad, OK? The iPad was destroyed. Why was that iPad destroyed? Because that was probably the only evidence that would have showed what was going on in that room.
PINSKY: She was videoing with that, right?
YOUNG: She was videoing, right.
PINSKY: So, if that`s destroyed, you don`t have the evidence. It`s clear to me, and I`ve done --
TAAFFE: No, wrong, they have the surveillance tapes.
PINSKY: Judge, go ahead, finish.
YOUNG: It`s clear to me that Zimmerman has issues, and issues dealing with violence on women. Knowing that, the police should have done a lot better job than they did, and they didn`t do it because they were afraid.
PINSKY: Ooh, interesting, guys, hold on. Hang on, Frank, more with you, more with Ms. Ali after this.
And later, does Zimmerman have a sense of grandiosity and invincibility here? Is there a pattern here? I`m going to actually get my behavior bureau experts to try to break this down. Try to make sense of this.
And what about Shellie? What`s her role in this? I think it takes two to tango in this case.
We are back in a moment.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
DISPATCH: What is Zimmerman doing right now?
CALLER: He`s in his truck.
There`s police here with their weapons drawn.
DISPATCH: Does he see them?
CALLER: I`m sorry?
DISPATCH: Does he see them?
CALLER: Yes, they`re telling his bodyguard to get out of the way.
Oh my God. Dad, get behind the car or something.
I don`t know if he`s going to start shooting at us or not.
DISPATCH: Are you guys outside right now?
CALLER: Yes, we are and the police have their weapons drawn.
Dad, get inside the house. George might start shooting at us.
I don`t know. We`re going inside the house.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: I`m back with co-host Jenny Hutt and our panel, Mark Eiglarsh, Judge David Young, Ms. Ali and Frank Taaffe.
I want to read a couple of Twitters here, first -- a couple of tweets, rather. This is from (INAUDIBLE). It says, "Doctor, as a woman, I know we can and do exaggerate the truth. #shelliezimmerman."
And, Ms. Ali, I had one here for you, if you guys would put this one for me, too, please? Here it comes.
"That lady in the gold hat is tripping."
EIGLARSH: Wait, it`s not a hat. Don`t call it a hat.
PINSKY: It`s a crown.
EIGLARSH: It`s a crown. Please, I learned the hard way.
PINSKY: Yes, Ms. Ali.
HUTT: Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: Yes, Jenny.
HUTT: I just want to say one thing to Frank Taaffe if I may.
HUTT: Frank, what you just said before the break that no marriage is perfect, you`re right. Every wife and every husband argue, but as a wife and with my husband almost 18 years, I`ve never feared for my life around him. I`ve never been afraid he was going to hurt me in anyway.
And there is something about that aspect of this story that bothers me. Even if she was subject to hyperbole, I do think she feared for her life in that moment. That`s all. That`s not OK.
PINSKY: And the girlfriend thing, is there a girlfriend? Was she at the scene too?
TAAFFE: Hell -- Dr. Drew, hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. Jenny, you brought up a good point. God bless you. Mazel tov, with your 18 years. You`ve never had to encounter a divorce and --
ALI: No, hell hath no fury for insane white man with a gun.
PINSKY: Well, Ms. Ali.
PINSKY: Hey, hold it. Hey, everybody. I`m going to turn everybody`s mikes off. I can`t hear a thing.
Let me see, Ms. Ali had got her hand up I`m going to go to her.
ALI: Yes, I was just saying, Dr. Drew, we`re getting an opportunity to witness this beforehand. Now, all of us know good and well that George Zimmerman is having some kind of mental problem, emotional distress, but yet and still, no white man is going to take a gun from another man that looks like he`s white.
So, he`s either going to kill himself or he`s going to kill some other people, and we`re sitting here and watching it. They should have taken that gun from him, but they`re not going to do it.
PINSKY: OK. Mark?
TAAFFE: You know what, Dr. Drew?
PINSKY: Hang on, Frank. Mark first.
EIGLARSH: I don`t necessarily look at this as a black and white issue. I look at this as anyone in that position most likely would have been arrested and later they would have looked at the evidence. In a domestic violence case, I would say in my experience, 98 percent, 99 percent of the time, the guy is going to take the ride solely on the woman`s word. I`m glad they didn`t if they felt that either she was lying or the evidence didn`t support what she was saying.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Frank.
TAAFFE: Well, she contradicts herself. You know, first of all, she is says that he pointed a gun or whatever it was, he has a gun, or even on a 911 tape, she says, you know, get inside the house, he`s going to start shooting. I go, really, Shellie? You`ve been with him this whole time. Is he really going to start shooting in a neighborhood and want to go ahead?
And according to Ms. Ali, he wants to get caught. What he`s going to get caught? This is a divorce. These are two human beings going to an emotional duress and stress.
PINSKY: Ms. Ali, we have your mike off. OK, I`m going to turn your mike on now, Ms. Ali. Go.
ALI: We`re not talking about just the divorce. We`re talking about his mental state. And, Frank, you better talk to his boy, because he`s on his way down.
PINSKY: Well, listen, Ms. Ali, I don`t necessarily disagree with you. But, Frank --
TAAFFE: I`ll talk to him. There`s a saying here in Florida --
PINSKY: What`s that?
TAAFFE: Go ahead.
PINSKY: Well --
PINSKY: The behavior bureau is trying to figure it out. But give me that saying. Go ahead.
TAAFFE: They say here if the police have to burn some gas, they`re sure to take your ass.
PINSKY: Judge Young, help me adjudicate here. Help me through this.
PINSKY: Hold on a second, Ms. Ali.
It`s time for the judge to ring. Go ahead, sir.
YOUNG: This is a case --
ALI: What kind of white trash talk is that?
PINSKY: Hold on, Ms. Ali. I don`t want to turn your mike off again. I don`t want to do it.
Judge, please -- let the judge --
PINSKY: Go ahead, Judge.
YOUNG: I`m educated white trash.
OK. So --
ALI: That`s the worst kind. Go ahead.
YOUNG: This case is about domestic violence. This case is not about Trayvon Martin. This case is not about him speeding. This is about domestic violence. If you look at the facts surrounding this domestic violence case, the police fell down on their job. They should have arrested George Zimmerman for domestic violence based upon the 911 call and also --
YOUNG: Hold on. And based upon the fact that that iPad was blown to smithereens. Now, what we have to consider, and it`s not only a husband and wife --
TAAFFE: That`s just her words.
YOUNG: Excuse me, you heard the 911 tape. If I can just add, domestic violence is not only heterosexual thing. There`s domestic violence in every type of relationship.
YOUNG: And people do not solve their problems by beating other people up or have a history of beating other people up.
YOUNG: That`s the concern that I have. That Zimmerman had a history of consistently bad behavior, and if I were the judge in the case, Dr. Drew, I would definitely at the least have a restraining order against him, barring him from the house or barring him from her.
PINSKY: There you go.
YOUNG: It`s a recipe for disaster.
PINSKY: Next time you come, judge, I want to give you a gavel so you can just like give your opinion and let the gavel drop. Frank, last word. Here we go, then I`ve got to go.
TAAFFE: OK. Let`s go back to this --
PINSKY: Frank, just go ahead. Go, frank, Please. Come on. Just here we go.
TAAFFE: You know what? They`re not living together. There`s no cooling-off period. And you know what? To both attorneys are trying to move this thing forward. OK? Let`s progress.
PINSKY: Got it.
TAAFFE: They don`t want this to get in a quagmire.
TAAFFE: Let`s move it forward.
PINSKY: Miss Ali, 20 seconds.
SHAHRAZAD ALI, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: I hope that every juror that voted him innocent for the Trayvon Martin murder, I hope they never sleep again. I hope they have insomnia for the rest of their lives. They get a chance to see now that something is wrong with this guy. Something is wrong with him.
PINSKY: We are taking a break.
YOUNG: Where`s my gavel? Where`s my gavel?
PINSKY: Where is that gavel?
PINSKY: The "Behavioral Bureau" is going to try to sort this all out when we return. We`ll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LAUREN LAKE, JUDGE OF "PATERNITY COURT": If he spends the rest of his days helping to save live because he knows deep down in his heart, he took a life unjustifiably, let that be his life`s work. At this point, I don`t think George Zimmerman needs any more PR. I think he needs to go somewhere and be quiet.
PINSKY: But Brian, he got himself in trouble by intruding into situations he didn`t belong. Did he not learn his lesson?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Evidently not. Welcome back. It is time for the "Behavior Bureau." Jenny Hutt is my co-host, and we are talking about George Zimmerman. His wife called 911 today, alleging threats. Back with us, Danine Manette. Joining us clinical and forensic psychologist, Cheryl Arutt, Samantha Schacher, host of "Pop Trigger" on the Young Turks Network, is here, Casey Jordan, criminologist and host of "Wives with Knives" on Investigation Discovery.
Oh, my goodness! Casey, let me start with you. Are we sensing a pattern here? Is there -- the wife alleged that he was feeling invincible since the acquittal, and, you know, the average person would sort of slink away and by quite after something like this. Is she on to something with him? And do we have someone maybe with little narcissistic stuff going on?
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Maybe? I can`t believe you put "maybe" in that sentence, Dr. Drew. Yes. He`s arrived. He`s fully, fully arrived. I think that those of us who did not agree with the verdict truly do look at this behavior as completely predictable. I mean, the pattern will continue.
And I can`t believe I actually agree with Miss Ali on this, but yes, it`s the O.J. Simpson syndrome or, you know, John Wayne Bobbitt. People who are found not guilty very often do feel teflon coated. And the whole idea that he took a gun to confront his wife or he had a gun on his hip when his wife went to the house to me is unbelievable. It really seems like he should be laying low, playing the Casey Anthony syndrome, and letting himself out of the spotlight. But it`s not working that way.
PINSKY: We`re making the case that Casey Anthony is less narcissistic than George Zimmerman. I never thought I would hear that. But, I got to go to Cheryl. And Cheryl, if we surmise that he, as Casey alleges, is severely narcissistic, it says something about Shellie, though, doesn`t it? The kind of woman that would be with the guy like that would have certain liabilities.
CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., CLINICAL & FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: It certainly could. As we know, very often, when someone is very pathologically narcissistic and over-entitled and feels invincible, very often they find themselves pairing off with people who have another constellation of personality traits, under entitled volatile idealization and devaluation, storming, fearing abandonment, having a big reaction to abandonment.
ARUTT: These are some things we would wonder about, and we haven`t met her personally, evaluated her personally, but we would certainly wonder whether she is contributing in some way --
PINSKY: Jenny, do you get that? In other word, she idealized at one point (ph) now that he`s trying to leave, she feels abandoned and idealizes (ph). Did you get that?
JENNY HUTT, ATTORNEY: OK. I do. I get that, but I`m not, as you know, Dr. Drew a behaviorist or a psychologist. I`m a mom and wife and a lawyer. And I look at this like, this is a guy who, like we said before, should have gone away and devoted his life to good service and taking care of others.
He did a horrible thing. And where is his sorrow? Where is his I`ve done wrong and I realize that and what a horrible mistake I`ve made? There`s none of that. So, to me, he`s just a jerk.
PINSKY: Well, that`s what Casey is saying, but Danine, you like look in a behavior more than these constructs. Do you make anything of Shellie`s behavior? Forget -- Zimmerman we all kind of think what we understand, but Shellie has a role to play here, too.
DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: Dr. Drew, I`m always a cynic. And so, honestly, I think she`s working on her book deal, quite frankly. I think that this whole GMA circuit that she`s on, that she`s putting herself out there, so we can see how good she looks with the camera.
I`m really thinking that, you know, rather than work on their marriage a little bit, because this is a bump in the road, she goes in and files for divorce, so, you know, she can cut the ties and she can go ahead and hook that book deal and make her money. That`s what I think this is about.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: We don`t know that this is just a bump in the road. From what I know, it`s been going on for a long time, even before the Trayvon Martin/Zimmerman trial, they were estranged. And I think when I watch the interview, I mean, yes, clearly she said some very provocative statements in regards to her husband, which, in my opinion, it was revealing to me, because I thought why is she famous?
And yes, it comes off manipulative and malicious, but at the same time, there is speculation that he`s had an affair. There is speculation that she`s resentment of some deeper issues. So, let`s keep in mind of the fact that he was acquitted of murder, yet, she`s now serving time for perjury for protecting him.
PINSKY: Cheryl, I saw you --
PINSKY: I want Cheryl to finish this up. Go ahead, Cheryl.
ARUTT: OK. OK. I just want to say that there is a possibility that she may have these personality traits and domestic violence is existing and he`s being abusive, and so, we need to make room for both.
PINSKY: Casey says, yes. And she could be working on her book deal. Could all been true. Could all been true.
JORDAN: And she could be waking up for the first time.
PINSKY: Casey, good point. Good point. Now, if you have a question for the "Behavior Bureau," tweet us @DrDrewHLN #behaviorbureau.
Up next, we`re going to hear more from Shellie Zimmerman and more from "Behavior Bureau." We`ll be right back.
VINNIE POLITAN, HLN ANCHOR: Coming up at the top of the hour on "HLN After Dark," our bold question for our in-studio jury. Is George Zimmerman a danger to society? His wife soon to be ex called 911 today.
RYAN SMITH, HLN ANCHOR: And we`ve got a lot of evidence for our in- studio jury. Pictures of dad`s nose potentially busted, iPad, not only that, an interview with Shellie Zimmerman`s attorney and who is this mystery woman that George Zimmerman was with?
POLITAN: She was a blond.
SMITH: Tank top, in his truck.
POLITAN: "After Dark."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you working presently?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I`m not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How do you -- what do you do with your time?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am a nursing student.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Is that a full-time endeavor presently?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, it is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, you`re not earning any income presently?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Other major assets that you have which you can liquidate reasonably to assist in coming up with money or bond?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: None that I know of.
PINSKY: Back with the "Behavior Bureau" and my co-host, Jenny Hutt. I`ve got body language expert joining us, Patti Wood, author of "Snap: Making The Most Of First Impressions." That was George Zimmerman`s wife, Shellie, committing perjury. That was her actually committing perjury on the stand.
It was later revealed that the couple was sitting on $135,000 in donated funds. Patti, do you think that "um" that she states before she reacts to the question about the asset is telling?
PATTI WOOD, BEHAVIOR EXPERT: Yes, it`s telling and telling in context, because if you listen to her responses previous to that response, very easy flow, very quick, very abrupt, very clear that she was comfortable answering those questions. So, suddenly, she`s asked this question and we actually hear the "um" and did you notice that she actually struck the words, not that I know of.
That`s actually a big tell. And it tells me that she didn`t want to answer this question. She didn`t want to have to say that she --
PINSKY: She did know of something. And here`s what she told -- this is again Shellie Zimmerman on ABC`s "Good Morning America." Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have been married to a person for almost seven years, and I don`t think I ever really knew him at all. I have supported him for so long and neglected myself for too long, and I feel like I`m finally starting to feel empowered again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Patti, I wonder if you see anything here. There`s a lot of interesting eye movements. Do you see anything there?
WOOD: Yes, quite a few things. First of all, she`s on the edge of tears for quite a bit of this interviewer, but her overwhelming emotion is actually anger. There`s actually moments where she shows intense rage and anger when she talks about Zimmerman. Also, she clears her throat quite a bit. Her throat overall is very constricted. These are emotions that she`s held in place for a very long time and she`s finally releasing.
PINSKY: Casey, you`ve made the case that Zimmerman is a narcissist. Cheryl brought the possibility that maybe a borderline goes with a narcissist. That`s what she was saying. I think there was a code there she was using. Is this borderline rage we`re looking at here?
JORDAN: I see a lot of contempt as well, but I think it`s contempt not only for George, but for herself, because I truly believe that she is waking up and smelling the coffee for the first time. Maybe some of that marriage counseling actually worked for her to realize that they`re codependent, and she is a rescuer, she`s a helper. She married him when she was 19.
This is the only thing she`s ever known in her adult life. And I think that she`s finally emancipating in going, my God, I stuck with him through the whole trial. And, he gets to have a new girlfriend. He gets to be famous. He carries a gun, get speeding ticket, all this stuff? And I think she`s finally waking up and she`s not his Kool-Aid anymore. So, she`s mad at herself as well as him.
PINSKY: Danine, do you agree with that?
MANETTE: No. I just think that --
MANETTE: I cannot understand why she is taking this to national television. I mean, a divorce is typically a painful thing or disturbing thing. I just really feel like she`s got an agenda here. I don`t understand why she`s putting this on in the limelight for whatever reason. I don`t get it.
PINSKY: I`m curious -- Jenny, would you perjure yourself for your husband?
HUTT: I mean, why would you go to me first with that, Dr. Drew?
HUTT: I mean -- I would like to think that I would never have a reason to perjure myself for my husband, but --
PINSKY: Sam, now that Jenny has perjured herself? Sam, can you answer the question honestly?
SCHACHER: Honestly, Dr. Drew, I would say that I wouldn`t be with someone that would put themselves in that position.
PINSKY: Oh, you too?
SCHACHER: And put myself in that position, because to me, I think the most attractive and important character traits are that of integrity and kindness. Not to say that I`m perfect. I`m just saying.
PINSKY: OK. So, they`re both lying.
Anyway, more on Shellie Zimmerman with the "Behavior Bureau" after this.
PINSKY: Back again with the "Behavior Bureau." My co-host, Jenny Hutt. Here is now more the Shellie Zimmerman`s interview with ABC`s "Good Morning America."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In my opinion, he feels more invincible. I just think he`s making some reckless decisions. I have a selfish husband and I think George is all about George.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Patti, your reaction.
WOOD: She`s really angry. And I think "George is all about George," that`s such an amazing statement of his narcissism, supposed, his emotions for her are so fascinating that she has finally this opportunity to express her anger. It`s absolutely amazing to me that she did this interview. Absolutely amazing --
PINSKY: Casey, you say she`s waking up and she`s sort of breaking out of her codependency, what if it`s just this idealization that sort of normal for a romantic relationship that`s come crashing down now into a deidealization where he was wonderful and now he`s crap.
JORDAN: Yes. I think that`s exactly what`s happened. And sometimes, the denial goes -- you know, slow attrition and people get it slowly. I think that she actually has had a crash where she really sees what she`s done. And I make no excuses for her perjury, but I think she was under the control of George. What does she get by lying? Absolutely nothing.
She protected him. And he would throw her under the bus in a New York minute. So, she`s finally seriously like not drinking his Kool-Aid anymore. And I disagree with her tactic of getting on the news. I`m going to agree with that, but I think she`s doing it to protect herself, because the more she says what she knows about George, the more she is on record in case he comes after her.
PINSKY: Danine, I guess I understand you`re skeptical of Shellie and motivation that she`s up to something, maybe going to get a book out there. I`m not sure I`m clear on what you think is up with George.
MANETTE: Well, I think George maybe going through some type of survivor`s guilt type thing, you know, when someone, you know, lives and get the way with something and they feel like maybe they shouldn`t have, they start becoming destructive, I think that maybe what`s going on with him, but this is not new.
He`s been fighting with police and getting restraining orders against him from ex-girlfriends before this even happened, before the Trayvon Martin thing even happened. So this seems to be his personality. It`s just that now we`re focused on it because he`s in the limelight.
PINSKY: Yes. That`s exactly what Casey is saying. Sam, I`m wondering out there in social media, what`s the sort of public`s take on this?
SCHACHER: Well, initially, earlier -- we`ve seen a switch. So, initially, earlier today, a lot of people did jump to conclusions, and they were absolutely irate about George Zimmerman apparently pulling a gun in an attempt to threaten his wife and her father.
But now, as we`re hearing more details, not to say that he didn`t do that, but we are hearing more details that he may not have had a gun and that in the footage, they don`t see that he had a gun. We are seeing a switch really just right before I sat down to do the show, you`re starting to see people backpedal a little bit. So, we don`t know. Not until we hear all the details butt we finally get a general consensus.
PINSKY: But Jenny, when you get right down to it, I really think the reason she is crashed into deidealization so much is he shows up with his girlfriend and a bodyguard. It`s bizarre.
HUTT: I go back to, A, he`s a jerk, and B, maybe she`s out in the media in a way to sort of fight fire with fire, if you will. He`s in the media no matter what he does, and maybe she`s just trying to go and say, look, I`m going to get out there, too, and I`m going to say what`s the real story, her interpretation.
PINSKY: Thank you, panel. Got to go.
"Last Call" is next.
PINSKY: Jenny, "Last Call" goes to you, but I just want to remind people that this is domestic violence. What can we say? Absolutely no tolerance, zero tolerance. These two need to be separated.
HUTT: Oh, yes, of course. And I just wish that he would have taken his acquittal and done something good with it. I don`t get it. I don`t get his behavior, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: The other part of the "Last Call" goes to your hair. We had an interesting tweet about this. It`s from Lolly. "Oh my God! Just thinking of you. You got to turn on Dr. Drew. Ms. Hands has some weird stuff on her hair. It`s bizarre. LOL."
PINSKY: So, we started with your hair, and we`re ending up with your hair. So, I don`t know if you`ve in the Shakespeare production or what, but --
HUTT: No, they`re stickers with sparkles. And things with sparkles make me happy. I wear a tiara at home sometimes in my closet. I`m weird, Dr. Drew, OK?
PINSKY: We`ve got to go, Jenny. "After Dark" starts right now.