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Will Zimmerman Be Charged?
Aired September 10, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, George Zimmerman, will he face charges? Could video from a smashed iPad be the key to the case? The always outspoken Ann Coulter is here to weigh in.
And missing Baby Elaina, tests confirm that a tiny skeleton hidden found in a box hidden away in the rafters are the remains of this missing toddler. The little girl`s aunt will join me live.
Plus, did a newlywed bride push her groom off a cliff? The behavior bureau looks at the honeymoon gone horrible wrong.
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening.
My co-host is Sirius XM Radio host and attorney, Jenny Hutt.
Coming up --
JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: Hello.
PINSKY: Hey there.
Now, we know that Baby Elaina unfortunately is dead. The question, though, is how did she die? A lot of unanswered question in that case.
Before we get to that, we got Shellie Zimmerman`s frantic 911 call about threats from her husband George. It`s all now all coming into question.
We have coming up, dash cam video from the police cruiser that showed up first on the scene. First, I want you to take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHELLIE ZIMMERMAN: He`s in his car and he continually has his hand on his gun and he keeps saying, "step closer".
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The caller was Shellie, and she said that she was being threatened with a handgun.
OPERATOR: Step closer and what?
ZIMMERMAN: With his firearm. And he`s going to shoot us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We did not find a gun on his body. We did not find a gun in the house. As of right now, there is no gun.
ZIMMERMAN: Dad, get behind the car or something. I don`t know if he`s going to shoot or not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shellie Zimmerman and Shellie Zimmerman`s father never saw a weapon.
ZIMMERMAN: And he took my iPad out of my hand and smashed it and cut it with a pocket knife.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s taking pictures. He`s telling him she`s videoing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anytime you have a divorce, emotions are going to run high. In this case, obviously that was happening. We want to get all the information, all the footage off the iPad. It depends on what that iPad has on it, what that footage looks like.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining us, attorney and CNN legal analyst Danny Cevallos, attorney and host of the new "Paternity Court", Lauren Lake, HLN`s Lynn Berry, Ann Coulter, a new guest on DR. DREW ON CALL, and thank you so much for joining us. She`s a political and social commentator and author of "Mugged: Racial Demagoguery from the `70s to Obama."
And HLN legal correspondent Jean Casarez.
Jean, where do we stand today?
JEAN CASAREZ, HLN LEGAL CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Well, today, law enforcement has basically done a turnaround, because last night, they were saying charges would not be filed in this case. Now, they are saying that the potential is there, and it all depends on a piece of evidence called an iPad. They said that iPad is in pieces. They are putting it together, because Shellie Zimmerman was recording as she was trying to get pots and pans out of the house, and they want to see if, number one, the iPad could have been used as a weapon, or if the iPad shows anything on that video that would amount to domestic battery.
PINSKY: Thank you, Jean.
Ann, this is the first time I had a chance to talk to you about this case. Do you have any comments about what went on with these two yesterday?
ANN COULTER, POLITICAL AND SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, in general, claims made in the middle of a divorce are not considered the most believable. They often turn out to be --
PINSKY: How dare you.
COULTER: -- untrue. You see a lot of it, and these are, you know, signed pleadings. They are often, wives or ex-wives accusing the husband of child abuse. Mia Farrow accused Woody Allen of abusing not only her adopted child, that he ended up marrying, but other children, and you know, it gets investigated, and investigated and these are people signing legal documents. It`s a very, very common phenomenon.
So, I would in general suggest that you wait for the story to fully come out, when accusations are going back and forth in the middle of a divorce. This wasn`t even, you know, a signed paper.
And I kind of feel sorry for Zimmerman. His life is completely under a microscope. He gets pulled over for speeding. Nobody ever said he was a saint. His claim was he legally use add gun in self-defense.
HUTT: Hold on. Hold on.
PINSKY: Jenny, hold on. Lauren had a crazy look on her face. What happened, Lauren? You had a reaction?
LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY: This guy, how could you feel sorry for George Zimmerman? This guy is so lucky. It`s ridiculous. Next thing going to tell me, he got nine lives.
This man has had a restraining order, has gotten away with murder and now could potentially be in an abusive situation with his wife when any other Joe would have gone to jail. We`re still waiting to see --
PINSKY: Hold on --
LAKE: -- what this iPad --
PINSKY: I agree. And as Jean said, this piece of evidence called the iPad. This mysterious iPad. What do you think you speak of, Jean?
But before we go further, I want to look at some of the new surveillance video from outside the house so we can discuss it. I`ll give you each a chance to ring in here.
What I want to show you is Shellie following George into the house. This is outside. All right. Outside their home. She seems to be videotaping with that iPad.
Then, like, 10en minutes later, they appear to be arguing outside. I don`t know if you can see that, arguing. He appears to grab the iPad, rip it off her and throw it on the ground.
I don`t see, though -- but, Danny, I don`t see domestic violence, per se, or is that enough to be a domestic sort of gesture?
DANNY CEVALLOS, ATTORNEY: Well, we can`t hear what is being said. And often the words could potentially be construed as a threat, but taking a step back. I think that`s why we have a separate body of law, a separate court system for domestic violence. It`s as if the criminal court system has said, in all, you two can have each other.
That`s what happened in divorces. It`s this kind of back and forth battles like these. And while the video evidence will give us information about what actually happened, ultimately, in many of these cases, both sides are to blame, and to quote some of my more jaded colleagues in divorce law, it is cheaper to keep her.
PINSKY: Lynn --
HUTT: Wow. Wow.
PINSKY: Help me if you got any more facts on the case? I know you`ve been watching very carefully, Lynn. What do you got?
LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST: Well, you know, Dr. Drew, the thing that`s interesting is that the police said today, what`s going to be essential about that iPad is whether or not there is a motion-like this over the iPad. You saw how it was bent. To be able to bend an iPad like that is extremely difficult.
So what`s going to be interesting is getting that video, seeing what`s going on inside the house, because outside the house you`re just seeing a minor altercation. You may be asking yourself, why in the world would they even be videotaping in general?
Well, it is not uncommon for divorce attorneys to tell their client videotape everything, or take photographs, because your spouse may allege that you took something that you weren`t allowed to take. It`s an uncomfortable thing but it is very common for divorce attorneys to tell they are clients to do that.
PINSKY: And, Lynn, I established yesterday that you sort of went through something yourself. Is this, you know -- personally, do you, can you relate in any way to what they`re going through?
BERRY: Well, I mean, personally, I`d rather not go into what my situation was, but I can say anytime anyone has gone through a divorce, I don`t think that anyone can say it was enjoyable situation. I heard Jane talking earlier that she actually had a great situation where they said, no, you take it. No, you take it. And then went out to lunch afterwards.
I think Jane Velez-Mitchell should write a book, how to get divorce and become best friends. It just isn`t common and somebody else said, you never really know the person until you divorce them. They become a different person, and terrible things happen --
PINSKY: Ann, not to out you as well, but in the green room before the show, we had a chitchat and you said, women, they can lie. Do you think Shellie`s lying?
COULTER: Well, I don`t know. I just -- no one of says, as true as a claim made in a divorce proceeding, which is why, you know, all of the hysteria when this first broke on the first day and even at this point, we don`t know, because we haven`t seen what`s on the iPad. Everybody settle down, and again I return to the point, it`s not like George Zimmerman is being nominated to the Supreme Court here. He defended himself legally when being mugged, as a --
HUTT: Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop!
COULTER: Well, you may disagree with that, but there was a trial. And now -- every single thing when he`s stopped for speeding it makes headlines.
HUTT: Hold on. Ann, nowhere in court was it said George Zimmerman was being mugged by Trayvon Martin. Don`t you think it was --
COULTER: I`m using a colloquial expression. That`s what was found.
HUTT: Colloquial expression? A mugging is a mugging.
COULTER: The evidence showed that he took the first punch. I am using a colloquial expression for what it is that was found by the jury in court. That it was Trayvon Martin that hit him first. That he was the one having his head bashed in.
That is a mugging. It may not be a legal term. That`s what happened and that`s why he was acquitted.
CEVALLOS: Actually, it actually --
PINSKY: Danny, go.
CEVALLOS: Actually I would add that, yes. I would actually add, by the way, Ann, terrific plug for your book. Out now, by the way.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s a good point.
CEVALLOS: The point -- it was brilliant.
Here`s the issue. When it comes to this stuff, you watch in that video, it appears she may be following him. How would you feel being followed in to the house and videotaped? These are two people who are clearly antagonizing each other, and ultimately, they both know how to get on each other`s nerves.
I think what obviously the video can totally tell us something. That George Zimmerman committed an act of violence, but for all of you bringing in his acquittal, and need I remind you, Ann got it right. It was an acquittal.
I don`t -- whatever your personal opinion is, that`s for Starbucks. That`s smoke-filled coffee house, whatever.
LAKE: No, no. No, no, no, no, no.
PINSKY: Hang on. Here`s what I want to do.
Lauren, give you a chance to respond. But if you guys would play -- can you play the camera from the cruiser that showed up while Lauren is giving a reaction. Lauren`s sitting quietly. I want to give her a chance.
We`re looking at the camera, this is the footage from the cruiser that showed up very first on the scene and I think they -- they -- they didn`t arrest him. They held him, Zimmerman, briefly.
Go ahead, Lauren. Then we`ve got to go out.
LAKE: I`m sorry, it has nothing to do with that camera. First, I have to deal with the fact we even suggested that Trayvon Martin was mugging George Zimmerman. That is absolutely ridiculous and insulting.
CEVALLOS: The case is over.
LAKE: Secondly -- no, no. That case is over for you. That case is not over for those of us who care about that young man`s life --
CEVALLOS: Over for the court. It`s over for the court.
LAKE: -- and the life lives of other young men that could be put in the same position. It`s over for you, convenient for you to be over. But it is not over for many of us.
CEVALLOS: It should be over for you, too. He was acquitted.
LAKE: No, no, it is not over for me. That`s why people are addressing the law linked to it and we`re also dealing with the fact that this could happen again. As you see, this man is involved in yet another altercation potentially that he could be responsible for.
PINSKY: All right.
LAKE: Now, don`t tell me what`s over for me. I will let you know what`s over for me.
PINSKY: All right. I`ll tell you what`s over for me is this segment. We got to take a break.
PINSKY: Hang on, Dannay. Got to take a break. Hold your thoughts. We`ll get more in a second. This one`s over for me for the moment.
Very interesting. Could these two either Shellie or George be facing charges? As we`ve said, the iPad may be the key to that. A chance to talk more about this.
And later, a toddler missing since June. Now found dead. The little girl`s mom and ex-boyfriend what do they know about this? More after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZACH HUDSON, PIO FOR LAKE MARY POLICE DEPT.: Because she said he had a gun we placed him in cuffs right out of the gates. Then we walked in to quickly interview her and make sure there were no injuries. We did that, ascertained there were no injuries, OK? And then found out she never saw a gun.
And we asked the father, did you see a gun? No gun. Then we asked the four guys out front. Did you see a gun? No gun. Then we asked George Zimmerman, did you have a gun? I didn`t have a begun on me. I don`t know what she was talking about.
We were never in his vehicle, so I don`t know if there was one in there or not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host Jenny Hutt and our panel.
I want to share a couple of tweets. First of all, Lauren, reaction to your comments. "Lauren, you`re a lawyer, others on @DrDrew are right tonight. Trayvon Martin case is decided by jury over." I give you a chance to respond in just a second.
But I`ve also got this, "Divorce can be very nasty and everyone knows and she knows the meaning of following George Zimmerman, do a setup. Sounds very likely. Common sense."
And, Ann, that sort of goes on what you were saying. This whole thing may have been part of the nasty divorce and sort of a setup.
Before we go to that, sort of interpretation, Lauren and Jenny were having a pretty strong reaction to the people saying the Trayvon Martin case should be put away. As Danny said, it was decided, case closed.
Jenny, you first.
HUTT: Yes, it`s not about -- yes, obviously the case was decided. So case closed, but the emotions that come from the case and what it`s brought up for our society really matter, Danny. To have a lack of emotion about the aftermath I think is to not think about it seems, to me, shortsighted and frankly wrong.
PINSKY: Danny, react, and then, Lauren. Danny?
CEVALLOS: If you want to make the point there is racial inequity in our criminal justice system, no one`s going to agree with you more than the criminal defense bar. Come on down to the courthouse. I`ll show you.
But if you`re going to plant your flag and say there are racial inequity, you picked the wrong case with George Zimmerman. That just ain`t it. It`s an acquittal and it is over.
HUTT: Hold on.
PINSKY: Hang on, Jenny. Lauren?
LAKE: Not only does it deal with the obvious racial inequity in our system, there are other issues, such as the stand your ground law. Such as the jury instructions and the fact that jurors came out of that case, right in the public eye talking about, we didn`t know what to do. We didn`t know -- there are issues that extend far outside of this case, and those that care --
CEVALLOS: It happens all the time with juries. Happens all the time.
LAKE: Listen, it may happen all the time --
CEVALLOS: We can`t help --
LAKE: It in no way minimizes what is happening today and the fact when you tell me get over it, I`m not over it.
CEVALLOS: What is happening today?
LAKE: What is happening today and --
CEVALLOS: What does it have to do with the Zimmerman case?
LAKE: There are still young people -- what do you mean? It has everything to doing with the Zimmerman case because this is George Zimmerman. He`s still in a position where he allegedly possibly could be involved in a difficult or violent altercation and his own lawyers say --
CEVALLOS: Because he was acquitted by a jury.
PINSKY: Hang on. Hang on. Ann, I`m going to you.
CEVALLOS: He was acquitted by a jury.
PINSKY: There is -- independent of a case, there is sort of a pattern emerging here with this guy. If you had been in a situation, Ann, and you were acquitted, wouldn`t you sort of not get yourselves in situations where you were speeding or involved in an altercation with your wife? Wouldn`t you do the opposite of that?
COULTER: Well, there isn`t a lot on him yet, with just a couple of speeding offenses. I probably have friends who have been pulled over twice for speeding since what, it`s been about three months now.
But to be under the microscope like this, he didn`t choose for this to happen to him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well --
COULTER: Again, he`s not being -- we`re not trying to run him for president or calling him a saint. There was a trial. He was acquitted.
And the idea you`re going to win some sort of racial justice by having the wrong conclusion in a particular case, no, it`s not up to a single individual. And also I point out at this stage that the stand your ground law is used most often in Florida by black defendants. I mean, the stand your ground law is not a racial issue. It`s a victim rights issue.
HUTT: Dr. Drew listen, and Ann, look. The problem is, there`s other issues that come up in addition to the racial issues from this case. The gun issue is a big issue. Frankly, it shouldn`t be so easy for George to have been packing and able to shoot Trayvon, unarmed.
PINSKY: All right. We`re broadening this out a little too far.
Let me bring it back to earth to here where we were in this particular setting of the potential accused alleged domestic violence between these two.
Lynn, did he have a gun on him or didn`t he? And if he did, was there some sort of failure of law enforcement out there on their lawn?
BERRY: That`s the big question, right?
We heard police in that press conference say there was no gun, there was no gun, there was no gun, there was no gun. Then last night, Mark O`Mara, George Zimmerman`s attorney, said, yes, he had a gun on him. It was actually on his body.
So, the way that the police explained that away in the press conference is, listen, Shellie Zimmerman, her father, everyone at the scene, even George Zimmerman himself said there wasn`t a gun. So, we didn`t have probable cause to go and search the car.
What they could have done gone up through the legal process, got a search warrant and searched the car. They did not do that. You can argue both sides why they didn`t do that. Whether they thought they didn`t have probable cause.
PINSKY: We`re watching video -- while you`re talking, Lynn, we`re watching dash cam video when the first cruiser showed up and them taking him into custody.
You know, Ann, there`s another strange piece of this whole story that I just can`t get out of my crawl, which is they keep saying Mr. Zimmerman`s bodyguard stood aside. He had a bodyguard with him? And he was -- the bodyguard was a witness on all of this. Why don`t they interview him about what happened? Is it weird to you there`s a bodyguard in the middle of all this and why does he have to have a bodyguard and carry a gun?
COULTER: Well, we heard from some of your guests, why he has to have a bodyguard. There`s a mob out to get him after being acquitted --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m sorry. What?
COULTER: in a self defense case.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yet another --
HUTT: A mob? An opinion equals a mob? That means we`re going to hurt him, because --
PINSKY: Danny, have at it.
COULTER: He has been -- it`s been expressed by people on twitter. He`s a marked man. I don`t think it`s a surprise that he has a bodyguard and the fact he had a gun in his car is utterly irrelevant. She claims he was -- he was waving the gun at her and her father.
The fact that he had a gun in his car is completely irrelevant. We`ll see where this goes, but that doesn`t establish anything.
PINSKY: Danny, make your point. Danny, go ahead.
CEVALLOS: Number one, the police did not need probable cause. It`s a domestic violence call. And, by the way, if anyone in the galaxy is holding on to a gun, everyone in the world knows that George Zimmerman has a concealed carry permit.
CEVALLOS: They don`t need probable cause. The wife called in a domestic violence case, that`s enough to get you on the premises, enough to get to the gun. Not a probable cause.
BERRY: When everybody said there was no gun, when everyone said there was no gun, you can still go search for a gun in the car?
LAKE: Didn`t she say there was a gun when she called 911?
CEVALLOS: This is not a case -- quiet -- this was not a case where the police were casing the joint and then entered the premises. This is a domestic violence call, where someone said, come to my house. They were called to the house.
PINSKY: We need to be quiet. Thank you.
LAKE: Last time I heard Dr. Drew was the host of this show. So, OK. Goodness gracious.
PINSKY: Lauren, take me home, please?
LAKE: The point is this -- this is a situation where if another person that was in this position at this type of goings-on in this life, got called on a domestic violence situation where the wife was saying she feared for her life, he has punched her father, there`s a chance this guy would have gotten hauled off to jail. I just believe George Zimmerman was very lucky and I am still waiting to see what this evidence, this iPad, is going to say before I make a final judgment.
But you would be cuckoo for cocoa puffs to believe --
CEVALLOS: I hope so.
LAKE: -- that this man doesn`t have issues with violence, as, against women and against obviously as we`ve seen --
HUTT: Right on.
LAKE: -- young black men.
PINSKY: We`ll need to leave it right there. Thank you, panel. Excellent job.
Next up, police identified remains of Baby Elaina, the Ohio toddler missing since June. So much of this story. How did she die? Was her body moved? There was so much squalor this child was living amongst. It was really a terrible story. Now, we know the child is dead but we don`t know really who or how.
And, later, the girl`s child`s aunt will join me here with the behavior bureau. Don`t go away.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host Jenny Hutt.
Jenny, before we go to this next story I want to share a tweet with you in the audience. It`s from alaesq213. "Damn, Dr. Drew, for me agree with Ann Coulter. @AnnCoulter, you were on point tonight and I don`t even know myself anymore."
Thank you, Ann. I know you, Jenny, you don`t necessarily agree with Ann. But thank you, Ann, for joining us again tonight.
Now, we are switching gears entirely talking about a big development in the case of Baby Elaina. Such -- just an awful story. Child`s remains found last week and were just confirmed as the remains of Baby Elaina. The 18-month-old toddler who disappeared from the home of her mother`s ex- boyfriend back in June.
Refresh your memory. You`ll remember this case. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Elaina`s grandfather was asked if he believes the toddler is alive.
UNIDENTIFEID MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just want to go home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) $250,000 --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s guilty of not taking care of that baby like she should have. She should have took the baby to the hospital, after the boyfriend hurt the baby.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Witnesses report that Steven ran out of the back door of this home immediately after Angela appeared in the front door reporting that her child vanished.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He maintains his innocence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You guys will see I`m innocent. That`s all I got to say.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A pivotal development in the Elaina case.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Detectives executed a search warrant at 701 Farrell, recovered immature human skeletal remains.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was in a box in the rafters?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was up on a shelf in the rafters, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We got the baby. We got the baby. But now it`s on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my panel.
Joining us, Tiffanie Davis Henry, psychotherapist and HLN contributor.
On the phone, I have reporter Chris Delcamp from WNWO-TV.
Chris, it`s a terrible story. Can you give us as latest, please?
CHRIS DELCAMP, WNWO TV (via telephone): Well, the latest, Dr. Drew, is that as you said this morning, they actually confirmed to the family it was, in fact, the remains of Elaina Steinfurth. As you said, on Friday, they discovered that box in a garage behind 704 Federal Street where the baby was reportedly last seen.
And it was reported that they didn`t know exactly where they got the information from that led them to the box, but after speaking with the family of Steven King, the boyfriend of Elaina Steinfurth -- ex-boyfriend. Elaina Steinfurth`s mother, they told me that Steven King told authorities exactly where to find that box and where to look and where to go to find it.
PINSKY: Chris, any sense of who did what to this child? Do we know anything else?
DELCAMP: At this point, the coroner is still looking into exactly what is the cause of death, but they don`t know how long the box was actually in there. At this time, they can speculate from the beginning, no one really knows, because Angela and Steven have both been in jail now for a matter of months.
So, they don`t know when it was actually put there or if it was put there in a very beginning of this whole case.
PINSKY: Wow. It`s just awful. Chris, thank you so much. Now, as Chris said, the baby`s mother and the ex-boyfriend are in jail. Each has implicated the other. Lauren, what do you do with a case like this?
LAKE: Listen, Dr. Drew, you`re asking the wrong person tonight. I mean, as a former defense attorney, they`re of course going to implicate one another.
But the bottom line is, when I look at that picture of that baby girl and think that these two misfits could have had something to do, obviously, had something to do with her death, I am only hoping and praying that on her -- her remains, I hate to even say it, there will be some type of physical evidence that will tell the parts of the story that they aren`t telling, or better yet, that you`ve got some strategic people behind this case that can get a confession out of one of them so we can figure out what happened and so we`re not left with another situation as we were with Caylee, where we really never knew what happened.
PINSKY: Yes. I hope we know more in this case. Danny, my question is to you. Do you think the ex-boyfriend, perhaps, cut a deal and that`s what led to him taking the authorities to the remains?
CEVALLOS: Yes. In this case, unfortunately, and unfortunately for those viewers that want justice, ultimately, this is just going to be a race for the first defendant to implicate the other one. That`s exactly what`s going to happen.
PINSKY: What do you mean? I don`t get --
CEVALLOS: That if we hear from both of them, they`re going to have total --
PINSKY: Were you serious? There`s going to be no way to --
PINSKY: Go ahead.
CEVALLOS: Lauren will tell you, she`s probably seen it 100 times like I have. You get two defendants. They will point at each other, even if they`ve lived together as husband and wife, girlfriend, boyfriend, sitting in jail for a few months, they will tell diametrically opposite stories about how the other one was guilty.
So, in this case, we better hope for some form of forensic evidence that will tell us conclusively that one did it or the other, but you better believe this is going to end up being a race to confess.
PINSKY: Oh, my god. Lynn, it`s disgusting. What are your thoughts?
LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST: It`s no doubt disgusting, but, Dr. Drew we don`t know whether or not there was anyone else is involved in this case. We don`t know whether Steven King is cutting a plea deal by implicating somebody else. That question police admit they don`t know either.
We saw surveillance video of Elaina and her mother, Angela, together on the porch. I don`t know if you guys have that video, but this was a mother that was very doting on her daughter.
PINSKY: Talking about that --
BERRY: Affectionate with her daughter.
PINSKY: We have those --
BERRY: Exactly. Right there. Exactly.
PINSKY: Where she seems to be very connected with the child. Seems to be.
BERRY: Exactly. So, it seems to be. And you`re absolutely right by appearances. But she also is a mother that didn`t report that her ex- boyfriend had possibly inflicted some sort of harm on this child because the child did have some sort of cut or bruise on the face, because they worried there were some sort of abuse going on.
PINSKY: Not only that --
PINSKY: Not only that. Tiffanie, I`ll give you a chance on this. The squalor that this child was in. I remember the -- I think we have that footage. We can show that as well. The house that this child was in. There was implication -- there it is. The squalor of this house, and there was implication of drug use. So, what do you take home from that, Tiffanie?
TIFFANIE DAVIS HENRY, PH.D., HLN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, there was no reason -- that`s part of why they couldn`t find this body. They said that it was just -- it was too difficult to go in to the garage to actually get up in to the rafters to actually look through all of the boxes. That`s why it was overlooked, but I want to touch on something that Lynn just said.
It really did puzzle me, too, that she -- that after knowing that -- or thinking that, or I don`t know, if her ex actually did harm the baby, that she would say there. That she wouldn`t call the police. She just wouldn`t get her butt out of that house.
PINSKY: If there`s drug involved, it all comes into clear focus then. I`m telling you. That`s how drug addicts behave sometimes.
All right. We`ve got to take a break. Baby Elaina`s aunt -- I think it`s actually maybe her great-aunt or aunt joins me. She`s a close relative. She`s going to join us after the break, and she will be with the "Behavior Bureau."
And later, I want you to take a look at a picture. From the baby to this happy couple. This is something posted on Facebook, that particular picture. And, well, police say that after a week of married life, she pushed him off a cliff. "Behavior Bureau" is going to look at that honeymoon gone wrong as well when we come back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have been shaking for the last three days, and I just want my baby home. She has problems and they (INAUDIBLE) get handled was if me and her father -- people are pointing fingers at me when they don`t even know what`s going on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She doesn`t know where the baby`s at, but she knew what happened to the baby.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I need all the support that I can get to bring her home. Anything to keep me comfortable from losing my mind.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Time for the "Behavior Bureau." Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. And we`re discussing the death of Baby Elaina. Still here, Tiffanie Davis Henry and joining us, clinical and forensic psychologist, Cheryl Arutt, Samantha Schacher, host of "Pop Trigger" on the Young Turks Network, and psychologist, Wendy Walsh, author of the "30-Day Love Detox."
Wendy who cheats on me with Jane Velez-Mitchell, I believe. I think that`s where I saw you. Ladies, I keep track with you guys.
PINSKY: Eyes on. Eyes on. Joining us --
WENDY WALSH, PH.D., AUTHOR, "THE 30-DAY DETOX": I go both ways, Drew.
PINSKY: I beg your pardon. I don`t need to hear about that in regards (ph) this particular story, because now I have on the phone a relative of Baby Elaina. It`s Tammy Mories. She is the aunt of Baby Elaina`s mom. So, Tammy, first of all, I imagine this is tragic news now that this has been confirmed, and all of us, our heart goes out to you.
This is such a terrible, terrible story. What are your thoughts now that the DNA has confirmed the identity?
VOICE OF TAMMY MORIES, AUNT OF BABY ELAINA`S MOM: I don`t know. I just can`t believe it.
PINSKY: Is your niece told you anything? Is she still maintaining that she knew none of this? Has she told you anything new?
MORIES: No. She said that -- yes, I talked to her Friday after the vigil we went to. She told me on the phone that she promises she didn`t do this to her baby, Tammy.
PINSKY: And has she told you anything else? Has she pointed a finger? Does she have a theory about what happened?
MORIES: Yes. She said Steven did this to her baby.
PINSKY: I wonder if anyone of my panels, Sam, do you have a question for Tammy? Go ahead.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. Tammy, first of all, my condolences to you and your family. But, if she believed that Steven was the one that was responsible for Elaina`s death, why do you think that she didn`t report him? Didn`t she want justice for Elaina?
MORIES: I don`t know. That`s what I`m trying to figure out. I don`t know what she was thinking. I don`t even know what he was thinking.
PINSKY: Has she -- I know this may not be an appropriate question, but have drugs been involved with this? Because when you add that to the outcome here, it all comes into focus. Do you know whether or not that was part of the story?
MORIES: With Steven, yes.
PINSKY: OK. And with --
MORIES: I heard Angela told me he was on heroin.
PINSKY: OK. Wendy.
MORIES: And that he was taking medicine to get off of it.
PINSKY: Got it. Wendy.
WALSH: I have a question about your niece`s early life. I want to know who her primary attachments were? Who raised her? What was her childhood like? What was her model of mothering?
MORIES: My sister is her mom. This is opening a can of beans. When she was a baby, Dick (ph) adopted her. You know, I loved this man because he raised my niece.
PINSKY: So, her relationship with your sister was not so good? Is that what you`re saying?
MORIES: With her, no. With Angela, no. No. not really.
PINSKY: I need to remind viewers that the allegations that are being presented here we can`t independently confirm. We haven`t had a chance to investigate ourselves independently. Cheryl, I wonder if you have a question for Tammy?
CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., @DRCHERYLARUTT: I do, Tammy. And I`m so, so sorry. I was noticing that Elaina`s mother looked absolutely petrified in court, and when this was going on earlier and there were some injuries on Baby Elaina, I know that there was some question about whether something may have happened accidentally and then they panicked and tried to cover that up.
Do you have any sense of whether just something went horribly wrong by mistake and then she was afraid to say something?
MORIES: You know what? To tell you the truth, I hope that`s what it is. I do not want to think that my niece did this.
PINSKY: Jenny, question?
JENNY HUTT, ATTORNEY: Yes. I mean, this is so devastating. I just - -
MORIES: It is. I`m so sorry for T.J.`s family. Oh, my gosh. T.J. alone.
PINSKY: let me tell you something. Jenny, before you ask the question, I`m running out of time for the segment. Control room, I wonder if we can keep Tammy for another segment and maybe do a short -- yes. Control room, are we good with that? Anybody. OK. So, here`s what we`re going to do. I`m going to keep Tammy across this commercial break.
Jenny, you`ll have a chance to ask her your question. This is such a devastating story. We`re going to hold back on the story of the newlywed tragedy. We will get to that. But first, break and then more with Tammy and my panel, after this.
PINSKY: Back with the "Behavior Bureau" and my co-host, Jenny Hutt. And we`ve been discussing the death of Baby Elaina. Still here with the "Behavior Bureau" by phone is Tammy Mories. She is the aunt of Baby Elaina`s mom. And Jenny you were about to ask Tammy a question. Go right ahead.
HUTT: Yes. Thanks. So, was anyone including you aware of how horrible the conditions were where she and the baby -- where Angela and Elaina were living? And why was she living there?
MORIES: No. I wasn`t aware. I really don`t -- I don`t really know Steven. My family has for over 20 years, but I really haven`t.
PINSKY: So, was no one aware of the conditions that this child was being subjected to?
MORIES: Well, I assume a lot of them did, but me.
PINSKY: OK. Tiffanie, I wonder if you have a question for Tammy.
HENRY: I do, and I want to go back to something that Wendy touched on a little bit earlier. I`m wondering, do you think that that lack of relationship or connectedness with her own mother impaired her ability to be able to properly care for mother, nurture, parent her kids?
MORIES: I hope not. You know what? If she is involved in this, I think she should serve her time. This is the baby we`re talking about. What was she thinking?
MORIES: That`s not right. There`s no excuses. Really, there`s no excuses. None.
ARUTT: Yes. Tammy, I know --
MORIES: There`s no excuses.
ARUTT: -- it must be so hard to get your mind around this and this happening. I`ve got to ask, was there -- did you know of any history of violence between Steven King and Angela? If you know of any reason why she may have feared him or feared his retaliation in some way? Did he ever hurt her?
MORIES: No. Not in front of me.
PINSKY: Tammy --
MORIES: And I really never been around them, too.
PINSKY: Tammy, I want to take you back to this being inexcusable and people serving their time. There`s a child dead here, and I agree with you. I know it`s your niece, but if she was involved in any way, I`m sorry, but she and he need to be held accountable, don`t you agree?
MORIES: Yes. Steven needs to rot in hell, because it wasn`t right.
PINSKY: Tammy, again, our heart goes out to you and your family. We appreciate you joining us here this evening. Thank you to the panel.
We`re changing gears. I almost can`t take the story. It`s heartbreaking. OK. Next up, we are going to talk about what might be a bride who had second thoughts -- well, what we do know she did is she pushed her recent groom off a cliff. We`re going to stay with the "Behavior Bureau" and look at this carefully after the break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): This young couple was married for just eight days. Tonight, he`s dead, his newlywed wife charged with murder. Investigators say Jordan Graham (ph) had second thoughts about this marriage and during a scenic Montana hike, she pushed her new groom, Cody Johnson (ph), over a cliff. Jordan insists it was an accident, but cops say her story just doesn`t add up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt, and the "Behavior Bureau." Twenty-two-year-old Jordan Graham (ph) has been charged now with second-degree murder. As we said, according to the "Daily Mail," shortly after Cody Johnson (ph) died, his wife reportedly posted a wedding photo on Instagram with a caption that read, you guys got to see this.
Quote, "Miss you so much, Cody. Not a day will go by where I don`t think about you. I know you`re in a better place now looking down on me. You`re my angel. See you again one day."
HUTT: It`s like, Jodi.
PINSKY: There you go.
PINSKY: That`s just like Jodi Arias said -- she said that Jodi said, Travis was in a better place, too.
HUTT: Yes. I think it`s rationale. I think it`s like she`s trying to wrap her head around what she did and try to make herself feel better by saying that or thinking that.
PINSKY: I don`t think she even sort of confessed or at least come clean to cops at that point that he was gone. She was already posting the stuff. Now, Wendy, you`re the host of a show called "Happily Never After" on Investigation Discovery. You`re the perfect one to talk about on a store like this. The husband falls off a cliff. She doesn`t report it. What do you make of this?
WALSH: Well, first of all, as you know, Dr. Drew, emotions run high especially after a wedding. A wedding is a time when people get so caught up in the fantasy of it all and the morning after the wedding night, reality sets in. Some people feel entrapped. Some people feel smothered.
I`m not sure whether this was premeditated on her part or she had a major anger management problem and there was a bad impulse here. I need to get more information about this particular case.
PINSKY: Right. Right. We need more information. I`ve got an affidavit I`m holding in my hand right here, and there`s a friend that reported that she had received -- or he or she, we don`t know -- a text from Jordan on July 7th. I believe that`s the night he died, right? Late at night, too. Here`s what it said.
"Oh, well, I`m about to talk to him." The friend then responded. "I`ll pray for you guys." Jordan then texted, "But dead serious, if you don`t hear from me at all again tonight, something happened." Tiffanie, it sounds like she was worried he might do something to her or was she just setting up an alibi?
HENRY: I think she was setting up an alibi. That smells like a setup to me. Almost like a -- oh gosh, a self-defense excuse.
HENRY: To me. That I`m expecting him to do something to me so maybe if I push him off this cliff, I can say that it was an accident, and I was actually defending myself and, oops, oh, my bad. He just fell.
PINSKY: Sam, go ahead.
SCHACHER: OK. Let`s say that this was an accident. She left him there for four days.
SCHACHER: On the bottom of that cliff. I`m sorry. I don`t care how mad I am about my husband. I don`t care if I don`t want to be with my husband any longer. If he fell off a cliff as a result of a heated argument, I would go down that cliff, no matter how steep it was, try to revive him. Call for help.
I think it`s so telling that she left him there dead or alive at the bottom of the cliff. I believe she did this in cold-blood and it was premeditated because of that.
PINSKY: Cheryl, what do you think?
ARUTT: Well, Dr. Drew, one thing I will tell you is that when Cody told her he was ready to take the plunge, I`m pretty sure this is not what he meant.
HUTT: Oh, God.
ARUTT: This is what annulment is for. This is -- if you have second thoughts, somebody can do something in an impulse in a moment that they can`t take back. And I don`t you know if this is premeditated, but this is something she now has to live with forever.
PINSKY: Anybody think it was just an accident? Show of hands. Before you say, Wendy. Anybody think it was just an accident? She freaked out and didn`t know what to do? Anybody? It`s a possibility? Possibility? Am I being too naive?
HUTT: Dr. Drew, Dr. Drew. Right. They`re at the edge of a cliff. You don`t push somebody at the edge of a cliff. You know that you`re at the edge of the cliff. You`re standing back to make sure you don`t fall. And if the person that you love is standing at the edge, you don`t push.
PINSKY: Starting with the Zimmerman case, ending with this case is, women lie, women kill and maybe I think nice things of them and I shouldn`t?
PINSKY: I`m just saying, possibly, possibly, this could be an accident.
HUTT (ph): Oh, come on.
PINSKY: Just possibly.
HENRY: Go ahead, Wendy.
WALSH: Dr. Drew -- OK. So, I actually tried to throw my only 64- pound 10-year-old into the pool the other day, and it`s absolutely impossible if all they do is grab your arm. We both went in. So, you know, she pushed him.
PINSKY: Got to go. "Last Call" is next.
PINSKY: Thanks, Jenny, for joining me this evening. And of course, thanks to all of you for watching. We will see you next time. "HLN After Dark" begins right now.