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Navy Yard Shooting Rampage
Aired September 16, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight -- the D.C. shooting rampage.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have multiple victims inside.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fairly certain he was dead because he was shot in the head.
PINSKY: My behavior bureau looks at the possible motives.
And a former Navy SEAL is here revealing clues the gunman unknowingly left behind.
And later -- the newlywed bride accused of pushing her husband off a cliff. She`s out of jail and we have wedding video of the happy couple just days before the groom`s death.
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening.
My co-host, attorney and Sirius XM Radio host Jenny Hutt.
A shooter went on a murderous rampaged at a Washington Naval Yard this morning. He killed 12 people before dying in a gun battle with police. At this hour, police are trying to track down a person who may have been involved, they are saying.
Take a look at this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We heard a very loud pop, which couldn`t have been more than -- we estimated about 100 feet away. Everyone said this is no drill. Go, go, go, emergency exits now. Go.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I heard three shots, pow, pow, pow.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Gunshots. Multiple gunshots and someone yelled gun and we ran.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And he`s came around the corner, he aimed his gun at us and he fired at least two or three shots.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We couldn`t see his face but we could see him with the rifle and he raised and aimed at us and fired.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An initial call came in for a shooting on the Naval Yard. It came in shortly after 8:15. Active shooter teams were deployed and were on base within seven minutes of the first call coming in.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a massive police presence here, with helicopters swarming all over the place.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fire alarm went off, trying to evacuate everybody.
I turned, ran the back side of the building. I wanted to get something between me and wherever the shooter was.
Coming up at the behavior bureau, we will hear from people who knew this suspect.
But first, joining us on the phone is HLN contributor Michelle Sigona.
Michelle, what is the latest?
MICHELLE SIGONA, HLN CONTRIBUTOR (via telephone): Dr. Drew, I was in the field since early this morning. From the last staging area, right before the Navy Yard, and going back and forth between there, and National Stadium where families were being reunited with loved ones. I can tell you it was organized chaos, even somewhat calm at times.
But I did speak with dozens and dozens of employees from the Navy Yard and some of whom were locked in their buildings for six, eight, ten hours, family members waiting to be reunited.
One captain came out. He was really full of adrenaline. He was right out in front of Third Street and M Street Southeast. He said he actually helped to barricade himself and others inside a conference area, used the table.
And then another woman a few streets away, she was in tears and very upset. It was heartbreaking. She spoke with her husband as the incident was unfolding but he`d not called her back for hours. She didn`t know if he had survived or not. She was literally pacing back and forth from street to street.
We do know a D.C. police officer engaged the shooter. Our sister network CNN says that officials at MedStar Washington hospital confirm the police officer now out of surgery. Doctors will have to assess if he will keep the use of his legs.
And the woman shot in the shoulder, she, still remains in surgery as for now.
Now, the law enforcement official says that about the gunman, Aaron Alexis, that he drove in this morning, with military contractor ID, parked in his vehicle, not too far away. May have walked a short distance into the building and as he made his way to the overlook area of the atrium began shooting downward.
PINSKY: Thanks, Michelle. It`s hair-raising to hear this story.
And joining us to discuss, Mark Eiglarsh, attorney at speaktomark.com, HLN anchor Lynn Berry, and Loni Coombs, former prosecutor, author of "You`re Perfect and Other Lies Parents Tell".
Now, police say they have hunted for someone who else might have known something.
Mark, what do you think they are getting at with that?
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Well, first of all, I`m glad that they are doing that. If there`s anyone else who had the extraordinary abhorrent psychology that this shooter had, he needs to be caught because this may not be the only scenario that he puts himself in.
And also, they have a very specific description of someone and they have yet to find that person. So, something tells me there`s more to this.
PINSKY: Loni, you have any thoughts on this?
LONI COOMBS, ATTORNEY: Well, I agree with Mark. It`s interesting they haven`t released any video. They didn`t shut down any of the neighborhoods or anything around there like they did like when they were searching for the Boston bombers. And so, it makes me think that maybe they don`t think they were an active participant but maybe a very vital witness or perhaps some type of cohort assistant in this.
So very important, obviously, critical that we all find him and yet that we are not being asked or given any more leads as the video, which we know there`s got to be some type of video of this person.
PINSKY: Jenny, you wanted to say something?
JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: Well, yes, I just want to say that I find it interesting that they brought in the team from Boston, I heard, that caught the Boston bomber to try to find who the second person is. So, clearly, there is a person of interest about something.
PINSKY: I got to tell you guys, I think this business about a second person is being overdone. I think this is going to be an isolated disgruntled person with some significant issues. We`re going to talk about it in the behavior bureau coming up.
I want to give the viewers some more vital stats on the dead shooter. His name was Aaron Alexis, 34-year-old contractor to the Navy, in the IT department. He won a service medal for the global war on terrorism. Also their also is an association with 9/11. We`ll get into that later on in the behavior bureau.
Lynn Berry, the guy walked into a military building with an AR-15 and semiautomatic weapon. Is this a breach of security or is he allowed to -- with his security clearances to walk in like that?
LYNN BERRY, HLN ANCHOR: Well, and the bigger question is why did he even have security clearance in the first place? This guy has two weapons related charges against him. He was discharged from the Navy because of a pattern of misconduct. And he also had a disturbance of the peace charge in Georgia.
Those were questions that would be asked of a military contractor before they would be hired by a company -- this company, The Experts, sort of a subcontractor for Hewlett-Packard. So the question really remains, how did this guy not only have security clearance but how did he get those weapons into the Navy Yard, because we now know there were not metal detectors there at the Navy Yard, which you would imagine there would be, that there would be this level of clearance and this level of security at a place like Navy Yard.
PINSKY: And, Lynn, my understanding is there was another problem back early in like 2004 in Seattle where he shot up a guy`s tires, right? We`re going to talk about all that.
I want to talk to Bud Kennedy right now. He knew Aaron Alexis. Bud is on the phone, I believe.
But, how did you know him to be? What is your reaction to all of this? Did you know of any red flags?
BUD KENNEDY, FRIEND OF AARON ALEXIS (via telephone): I write a column here and also write about restaurants. Aaron waited on me as a server at a Thai restaurant here. He had been in the navy reserve base and Lockheed Martin side by side. He was also best friends with the owner of the restaurant, waited tables there.
People there loved him very much. The customers there said he loved their families, he loved their children. And he was there off and on. He would wait tables and drive out delivery orders and he was -- he seemed to be sort of a serious guy.
I have described him as bookish. He seemed to be very reserved, but he got along well with the customers and the people at the Happy Bowl Thai restaurant here. When they heard this happened they thought he was one of the victims. They were stunned to find out he may be the shooter.
PINSKY: Oh, that`s interesting.
KENNEDY: He`s been gone about nine months. He went to Thailand and then on a couple of IT assignments and people have been asking here, when is Aaron coming back.
PINSKY: Wow. Bud, hold on.
Lynn, I believe you have a question for Bud?
BERRY: Well, I have a question because Dr. Drew, you were talking about the 2004 incident. Apparently, he claims he blacked out from rage and that`s why he shot up a car that was parked next to his house.
BERRY: Bud, did you ever see any indication of this rage that he claims caused him to actually black out and not even remember a shooting?
KENNEDY: Yes, that was in Seattle? Nobody here saw anything like that. And they tell me once there was a customer in the restaurant who was being disruptive and needed to be removed and that the owner tried to remove him at first and that Aaron didn`t jump in and get involved until he saw that the owner was a little too small to shove him out the door. Aaron being a little bit taller, came in and helped eject the man from the restaurant.
But Aaron --
PINSKY: Jenny, did you have something?
KENNEDY: Aaron did not have any sort of temper here.
PINSKY: Got it.
HUTT: You said he was a bit bookish, and maybe a bit quiet. Did you ever see him smile? Was there anything sort of light about him?
KENNEDY: Yes, he was serious the day that I went, but the friends who would go there often, we have copy editors here at the paper that go there who say he loved their families and their children and seemed to engage and get along well with everybody. He had the one incident here where he was arrested for discharging a gun, a gunshot went through the ceiling of his apartment into the apartment over him. The -- his explanation was that he was cleaning his gun and it went off and that sounded plausible to people here.
People in Texas --
PINSKY: Mark, you have a follow-on?
KENNEDY: -- cleaning their guns.
EIGLARSH: There were some reports he had alleged he suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder from the thing he`s witnessed during 9/11. I`m wondering if he ever mentioned being a part of the rescue efforts there and whether that ever affected him in any way.
PINSKY: By the way, Mark, Bud, before you answer that. I read what the father said in the police report. I`m not sure there was a direct relationship between the PTSD and 9/11. I think the dad might have been saying this is a good guy. He serves. He was involved in the 9/11 rescue efforts. And this guy has PTSD.
But, Bud, please answer.
KENNEDY: Members of the restaurant here say that he was there during 9/11 and still had some -- still had some emotion about it, but they don`t -- they say that it didn`t seem to turn him into any sort of darker character, but that he did talk about being in New York during 9/11.
PINSKY: Thank you, Bud. I appreciate you joining us. Thank you panel.
Next up, I`ve got a former Navy SEAL here with his take on the shooting. What clues perhaps the gunman has left behind to help us understand the story and what you can do to prevent getting stuck in something like this or what to do if you ever do.
And later on, the behavior bureau is going to look at possible motives. What could have happened here?
Back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news. A shooting at the Washington Navy Yard.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We can tell you there are multiple law enforcement agencies on the scene here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just a very intense situation. We`ve been talking to employees of the Navy Yard here who were told to seek shelter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As we were exiting the back door, we noticed him down the hall. He stepped around the corner. We heard shots.
And as he came around the corner, he aimed his gun at us and he fired at least two to three shots.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He walked up to try to say, hey, there`s a shooter in your building. Do you know what`s going on? I`m like, I don`t know what`s going on. Fire alarm went off. We`re trying to evacuate everybody. That`s when he got shot.
UNIDENTIFEID FEMALE: This staggering number that`s tough to wrap your head around, 12, 12 dead as a result of this mass shooting.
(END VIDEO CLIPS)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host Jenny Hutt, Mark Eiglarsh, and Lynn Berry still with us. And joining us as well, Judge Karen Mills-Francis, host of "Supreme Justice with Judge Karen."
And CNN has just learned that Alexis was either to start soon or had just started the work at the Naval Yard today apparently. In addition to security clearance had been issued, a letter required when beginning to work at a new base. I guess he had that.
Cade Courtley, former Navy SEAL. Apparently, I`m having trouble reaching Cade, apparently. Cade was going to give us information about how to -- OK. We keep going back and forth between having and not having Cade.
Can you hear me? See if you can put him up there? Cade? There you are. Can you hear me?
Well, we seem to have difficulty.
Judge Karen, I`ve not had a chance to talk to you until this. Can you hear me?
JUDGE KAREN MILLS-FRANCIS, HOST, "SUPREME JUSTICE WITH JUDGE KAREN": I hear you now.
PINSKY: OK, what are your thoughts on what happened today?
MILLS-FRANCIS: Well, I am just remembering the 1990s before you, know, 9/11 happened and I tried to get on a naval base. Me with no criminal record, I`m a judge. I wasn`t a judge at the time. At least I was a lawyer and it was so difficult to get on.
I`m thinking here this guy has shot up somebody`s tires in Seattle, shot through his apartment floor in Texas, been discharged from the military, and he gets on a naval base fully armed. There are a lot of questions that need to be answered here.
HUTT: Yes, Dr. Drew, listen. I have two kids in school. And I think to myself, if this falls through the cracks in an environment that`s supposed to be high security and high tech and how did that happen there, what could happen in the schools? I mean, it`s incredibly scary.
PINSKY: Now I believe I`ve got contact with Cade.
Do you hear me, Cade?
CADE COURTLEY, FORMER NAVY SEAL: I do, Dr. Drew. How about me?
PINSKY: OK, great. I`m so glad. Thanks for joining us again.
As usual, when I get to talk to you, it`s in horrible circumstances. I`ve got to say almost every time there`s been a mass shooting in the last year and a half, it`s been people with suspect history, suspect mental health records.
I am going to get more into that with the behavior bureau, but I`m a little bit upset about that this evening. You suspect a disgruntled employee before we had any details on this case. Why is that?
COURTLEY: Because trying to get on a military facility like the one in D.C. is very difficult, unless you have the proper ID and, even then, sometimes it will be spot checks of your vehicle or bags. So for him to be able to do that, that easily --
PINSKY: But he --
COURTLEY: -- just led me to believe that --
PINSKY: He apparently was in -- we`re hearing, right, he`s a new employee but he walked on with automatic weapons? Is that something that seems sensible to you?
COURTLEY: Well, not necessarily, but at the end of the day, you could have all of that in a bag that`s approximately 2, 2 1/2-feet wide. So, that could look like a tool kit. He was an electrician. Electricians need tools. He`s coming on board.
It`s unfortunate that something like that isn`t checked or wasn`t checked but that`s what happened today.
PINSKY: All right. Cade, help us -- I`m going to give us a little primer on if -- if somebody is stuck in an active shooting scenario, which, of course, random, remote -- how do we protect ourselves?
COURTLEY: Well, look. There`s three things you do. There`s three parts of an active shooter. There`s before, when the shots are fired, and then there`s after.
Before you do something as simple as where the closest two exits from either my workspace or common areas, where two pieces or a piece of cover, something I can get behind that will stop bullets. And then finally, think about certain things like, what kind of footwear do I wear to work? Understandably, I might need to wear something like this that looks good but if I have to go and run, is that going to be effective?
When the shooting starts, part two, then you get down immediately and you move to that piece of cover. Wherever is going to stop bullets. And then you are in a situation where you are either going to shelter in or you are going to evacuate as soon as possible.
They were told to shelter in today. Well, that might not be such a great idea if your work space is wide open, several tables, not much cover. In that case, you`re going to want to get to that exit as soon as possible.
And the final element to an active shooter is when you come face to face with law enforcement, you need to make sure they know that you are not one of the shooters. Hands in the air, yelling "I`m friendly. I`m a friendly."
HUTT: I`m a friendly.
PINSKY: Cade, I think the last time we spoke if I remember right, was the Colorado shooter, right? Was that in Aurora, the last time we talked?
COURTLEY: Well, and then we talked about --
PINSKY: Going for the exit, though. I remember that information then, too. But you had some advice about how you get to the exit. You don`t just stand up and run, right?
COURTLEY: No, I mean, look. The first thing you need to do -- and it`s hard for somebody who hasn`t been in combat or isn`t used to this. As soon as you hear gunshots --
PINSKY: By the walker that`s most of us, Cade. I`m sorry. That`s most of us -- just, by the way.
COURTLEY: No, it`s -- it`s very simple. If you only remember two things when you hear gunshots. And it`s going to be a very unfamiliar environment. Get down and crawl.
Now, today, I heard of several of the people that were there. They just started running and a few of them ran into the shooter.
This is going to sound crazy but get down, take a couple seconds just to try and identify where the source of the gunfire is, so you don`t make that bad mistake. It`s two seconds that could save your life. And then move.
PINSKY: I also remember you saying, don`t try to do any fine motor activity like dialing a phone, that you lose all that in these moments as well, right?
COURTLEY: Yes. No. You have two things to do. Get down, move away.
PINSKY: All right, my friend. I got go. Next up, how does this happen? I got to take a break. The behavior bureau will take a good look at this.
And later on, we`re going into the newlywed bride who pushed her husband off a cliff. We have new video of -- well, the happy couple just days before this incident.
We`ll be back in just a second.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
DON ANDRES, WITNESS: Definitely a lot of fear on the faces of folks. People didn`t know what was happening. The police are just pulling up the caution tape and I just saw random folks just sort of run up and start to tend to the man on the ground. I don`t know what happened to him, but definitely a lot of fear and a lot of folks in their expressions.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: Reasonably so. It`s time for the behavior bureau.
Back with co-host Jenny Hutt.
A mass shooting in D.C. has left 13 people dead, including the gunman himself. So, what happened here? Why could someone snap like this?
Joining us now, Samantha Schacher, host of "Pop Trigger" on Young Turks Network, clinical and forensic psychologist Cheryl Arutt, and Danine Manette, criminal investigator, author of "Ultimate Betrayal."
All right. Earlier today, CNN`s Ed Lavandera talked to the suspect`s friend and former roommate. I want you to look at this.
(BEEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It might be a little angry sometimes, you know, but I don`t think -- I don`t believe that he`s going to kill -- I can`t believe myself that, if he did it I feel like, oh, my God. He spent most of his time in the bedroom.
The only time that he went out -- came out of the room is when I knock on the door. Hey, you got food? I bring you some food. And he`d take the food and he`d eat.
He had a gun, for sure. I mean, he had a concealed license and he got gun that is legal. It`s not illegal at all.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is he alive?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They killed him?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They killed him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But he --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know. I ask myself, what the hell is he doing? I mean, like if he did that, I mean, I just don`t know. I had no idea.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Cheryl, here we are again with people going, how is that possible with somebody in but the clues were there. He shot up somebody`s car in 2004 in what sounded like a paranoid state.
Let`s break this down just that episode. We heard that he was staring at the construction workers across the street from his home and eventually went outside and some sort of blackout and shot up the guy`s car. That sounds like a paranoid episode, does it not?
CHERYL ARUTT, CLINICAL & FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Dr. Drew, it absolutely could be a paranoid episode. It sounds like it could be either a paranoid episode or dissociative episode where something triggered him. If he did, in fact, have PTSD related to 9/11 or related to any other subsequent combat, there could be something about what was going on.
I think this is a guy who sounds like he was very sensitive to sound. And one of the symptoms of PTSD that is the hardest for people to get rid of is the exaggerated startle response. And I just really wonder whether some of these incidents that he had, these big blow ups and this rage has to do with some sort of sound-related problem. It`s just a hunch at this point, but I`m -- this is what happens when people don`t get the treatment they need.
PINSKY: Right. I have got Jenny and Samantha both giving me the, what, huh? What does that mean? What`s the problem?
HUTT: Dr. Drew --
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: OK.
PINSKY: Jenny first.
HUTT: Dr. Drew -- listen, Dr. Drew, I am no psychologist. I`m like a mother with teenagers.
PINSKY: We got that.
HUTT: If my kid is locked in the room all day long and only coming out for meals, I know there`s a problem. I mean --
PINSKY: You are concerned about it. OK. Good. I like that. A mom`s hunch. Mom`s intuition.
Sam, what do you say?
SCHACHER: OK, here`s the thing, Dr. Drew. We as a nation need to do better. How do we prevent this situation from occurring? These mass shootings are happening at an alarming rate. It is scary.
So, does that mean that we need to have mandatory --
PINSKY: Sam, I -- Sam, I agree.
SCHACHER: -- mental health checks. I can`t, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: I completely agree with you. Wendy, I believe I`ve got Wendy in there somewhere.
Wendy, can we show her up on the screen? I can see him on my -- OK.
Now, Wendy, you are the other licensed person here.
WENDY WALSH, PYSCHOLOGIST: I`m here, yes.
PINSKY: Yes, thanks for joining us. This issue of people with mental health issues in the background getting their hands on a gun is really concerning to me.
PINSKY: Cheryl says maybe it`s PTSD. I`m saying a little paranoid episode. What`s your take?
WALSH: Well, you know, my concern, I think Cheryl is spot on with the PTSD. I think the paranoid is a piece of it.
But the thing that I think about a lot, Dr. Drew, is the isolation that`s going on in our culture that`s increasing more and more people alone in rooms with computers, and takeout food and that`s it. And so, if we don`t have the social interconnectedness that we need between each other, no one is there to see the signs. You know, we can`t put it all on his roommate to figure it out.
WALSH: Where were his brothers, his cousins, his sisters, his mother? Where were his -- where were his people?
PINSKY: Yes. And his poor roommate does not look like the most psychologically sophisticated person I`ve ever seen. But, Danine, what are your thoughts? You like putting out all these fires that we all create here.
DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: What`s really disturbing is there`s no -- we can`t place him into any type of category anymore. It seems like it used to be with the Unabomber and people we could see it coming or people that were acting strangely, the trench coat mafia or, you know, doing things like that and dressing a certain way and behaving a certain way.
Now, you have a bunch of neighbors and people that go to school with, like, the bombers, the Boston bombers, marathon bombers, that to school with these people and say this person was fine. I heard them talking to his co-workers.
MANETTE: And they are saying he`s fine. It`s really disturbing.
PINSKY: But, you`ve got to remember, these things can come in episodes. People can have episodic difficulty. The problem is when you have your hand on a gun, those episodes can become tragedies.
Got to go.
Next, the bride who pushed her husband off a cliff is out of jail at this time. We have new video of the couple`s wedding.
And later, the young woman whose parents say she is being brainwashed. The behavior bureau comes back and takes a hard look at the controversial Texas church that has that woman right there.
Back in a moment.
PINSKY: Welcome back. My co-host is Jenny Hutt. Also back, Mark Eiglarsh, Judge Karen, Lynn Berry, and Loni Coombs. Tonight, the newlywed bride charged with murder for pushing her husband off a cliff is out of jail. A friend of the victim will join us later with his reaction. But first, there are new developments in the case. Take a look at this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, the case just has a life of its own. Certain procedures that need to be followed and timing factors and so on.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The judge released Graham ordering her to electronic monitoring at her parent`s home saying she has no criminal history whatsoever and never exhibited tendencies for violence or even anger.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How are you doing? Anything you want to say?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The couple appeared happy and in love in their first dance at their wedding. Graham`s lawyer says she and Johnson fought at home where they say Cody pinned her down. At this sheer cliff, they say, there was a grabbing incident which was all in one motion, the grabbing and pushing.
This was an accident, says Graham`s lawyer. Prosecutors paint a very different picture of this young bride. She created a fake e-mail account and wrote e-mails to herself to fabricate a bogus story about her husband`s death.
PINSKY: That, Loni, is the part that makes us all cringe. It`s not just so much the possibility of an accident, but then the lengths she went to cover.
LONI COOMBS, AUTHOR, "YOU`RE PERFECT.": Right. I mean, when she first goes to the police, they question her about her missing husband. She lies to them. She says, you know, he left with a friend in a car when she knew that`s not what happened and then she fabricates this e-mail saying, you know, Tony wrote it and it came to me and it said he went on a hike and he fell.
And then, she does some strange things. She actually goes to the park ranger and she says, hey, you know what, you know my missing husband, I found his body and the park ranger is like, well, that`s a coincidence. Why did you find the body? And she goes, oh, I just went to this area that my husband liked to go to and that`s where he just happened to be.
I mean, and during this time, mind you, Dr. Drew, she`s also posting pictures on Facebook saying how much she will always love him and she knows he`s looking down on her and Instagram photographs. It was a very childish, immature approach to killing someone whether it was an accident or not.
PINSKY: All right. Mark, you want to defend this young lady?
MARK EIGLARSH, SPEAKTOMARK.COM: Yes, I`ll give it a shot, Drew. What the heck. First of all, this comes down to -- nobody was there except him and her. Dead guys don`t tell tales apparently. She knows that. So, she`s the only one, just like Jodi Arias, who can say what happened. And what she`s going to say happened is not what the officers, the agents wrote down.
She`s going to claim that it was one action. He grabs the arm. She pushes him away and down he went. A tragic accident.
COOMBS: And that may have worked if she would have gone to police and said, oh, my gosh, oh, my gosh, my husband fell off a cliff. That defense probably would have worked.
PINSKY: All right. Now, we`re watching video newly released from the actual wedding. Put that back up again. It`s kind of interesting. You see how they can relate to one another. They look like sort of a normal wedding picture. But, Karen, you`re the one that would hear this sort of a case. I mean, as you sit and listen to all of this, what do you make of it?
JUDGE KAREN MILLS-FRANCIS, HOST, "SUPREME JUSTICE WITH JUDGE KAREN": Well, you know, I read the arrest affidavit and the FBI agent said that he had evidence that this was premeditated murder. Now, I know that the state has charged her with second-degree murder which is heat of passion, which I think is setting the defense up for this was an accident. We were out walking on a trail at night.
We got into an argument. Mind you, they had only been married eight days, but they`ve been together two years. And maybe there was a fight that night. Why the hell they were walking on a trail in the national park in the middle of the night, I don`t know. But this is no Jodi Arias case. I think that they may have a good case for self -- I mean, it was self- defense. She pushed him. it Was an accident and because she`s young, she did these stupid things.
LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST: No way. No way.
PINSKY: OK. So, Judge Karen is saying --
PINSKY: -- it`s an accident. Lynn is there evidence of that? What do we know about why she created these fake e-mail accounts? She sent messages to herself. Was it just in a panic?
BERRY: That`s the big question. It`s the cover-up. And that`s why that defense is impossible for that to work, that it could have been this crime of passion. It`s a cover-up that is so incriminating for her here. You`re going to get a jury hearing this case and you`re going to hear the details of her creating an e-mail account that this is going to be the prosecution`s strategy here. She created --
PINSKY: Hang on, Lynn. Mark says no. Mark is going to stand in front of Judge Karen and make this case.
EIGLARSH: Yes, because Judge Karen is going to give me a lot of time to pick a jury and she`s going to let me go through each one of these jurors and find out who`s not going to convict my client solely based upon lies. You see, people lie for reasons other than guilt. So, we`re going to set that aside because Lord knows one of those high-profile cases, starts with Casey -- oh, yes, lied and got off. So lying doesn`t make you guilty, you see. We`ve learned that.
BERRY: But Mark, how are they going to explain away the fact that she talked to a friend and said she was having doubts about her marriage?
EIGLARSH: I`ll tell you why, because --
EIGLARSH: I`m going to answer. You ready? I thought about that, because she`s going to spin it around that he, the alleged victim, was becoming more and more abusive both verbally and physically and she had second doubts about being married to him.
PINSKY: Hold it there. Everybody, got to hold it right there. We`ll find out as this case unfolds.
Next up, a friend of the groom joins us in the "Behavior Bureau." He says Jordan was, in fact, cold and distant from the start.
And later, we`re going to talk about that church in Texas holding a woman. Is it against her will or have they brainwashed her as the parents say? The "Behavior Bureau" is going to weigh in on this after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: While the groom`s friends describe the bride as having cold feet, Elizabeth Shea (ph) remembers her as a normal bride. Shea is a custom song writer. She says the bride hired her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She worked extra hours to afford the song. I used words like, you`re my safe place to fall.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Wow. That is something. Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. Time again for a "Behavior Bureau." Those are spooky, spooky lyrics. Samantha Schacher, Wendy Walsh, Cheryl Arutt, and Danine Manette join us.
And by phone, I have Max Rocha. He is a friend of Cody Johnson. Max, of course, our condolences to his friends, you, his family. I wonder if you could tell us about Jordan and how she acted towards Cody and his friends. My understanding is at, one point, you tried to include her on a softball team and something funny happened. Tell us about that.
VOICE OF MAX ROCHA, FRIEND OF CODY JOHNSON: Well, my interaction with Jordan, although, be it a handful of times because of her lack of inclusion on her part, very distant. At one point, we had a softball team and I asked Cody, I said, hey, you know, a lot of guys are having their girlfriends or spouses on the team.
You know, you should ask Jordan if she wants to play. the Next week the response was, Jordan said she doesn`t want to play on the softball team because you guys suck.
JENNY HUTT, ATTORNEY: Wow.
PINSKY: Oh, that`s nice.
ROCHA: That`s the total attitude that I carried with me throughout that.
PINSKY: My understanding also is that she was very, very religious person. Did that figure into her isolating him from the friends? Maybe she thought they were a bad influence or something?
ROCHA: There are several of us that are like-minded of faith as, you know, as Cody and Jordan. So, I don`t think that that had an issue with it. But I know that we definitely made reservations about the couple and how serious they were towards each other. You know, very -- you know, we made it known, I, myself, told Cody, you know, a couple of times, if he wasn`t ready, you know, it`s a very serious step. And --
PINSKY: I wonder if -- I got you, Max. I wonder if anyone on the panel has a question for max. It`s kind of interesting. I guess, Sam, you`ve got something for him, but the judge referred her home on GPS for mental health services. I wonder what those were, but Sam go ahead and then Wendy.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. Max, you were suspicious of her. So, do you believe that Cody Johnson`s death was caused by an accident or do you think that she murdered him in premeditation?
ROCHA: I believe that as was previously mentioned on the show, there are only two people that were there. Cody and Jordan. I know that Cody was my friend and I knew that he would never do anything to ever hurt or harm Jordan. Not even in joking. I know that his temperament was clean and I know that Jordan lied several times throughout this entire process, but I believe whatever happened, she did not do the right thing.
WENDY WALSH, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGIST: OK. So, what I want to know is, what kind of signs could you possibly have seen ahead of time? You mentioned that she wasn`t inclusive. She wasn`t part of the gang. She was kind of on her own.
PINSKY: Was she paranoid?
WENDY WALSH, PH.D: Did he ever talk to you about relationship problems with her?
ROCHA: You know, I think that in any relationship, there`s ups and downs and the strength of the relationship, you know, is measured by how you do in the down time. So, you know, I didn`t know every single detail of Jordan and Cody`s life, but I do know that like anybody else, you know, people have issues and whatnot.
I know that he worked very hard to provide her a home and the wedding and all that while maintaining a 10-hour work schedule. Somebody doesn`t do that to somebody they intend to harm or ever mistreat.
PINSKY: Thank you, Max. I`m going to -- we`re going to talk amongst ourselves here on the panel. Danine, what are your thoughts on this case?
DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: I`m just wondering if they found her to be shy and introverted or what, because in my opinion, she just seems like she`s, from what I`ve read, she just seems like she`s just mean and nasty with a jacked up attitude from everything I`ve seen about her interaction with people. She just seems like she`s jacked up.
HUTT: She killed him.
PINSKY: Who`s trying to talk? I`ve lost all my connections here. Who was trying to talk to me?
PINSKY: OK. Jenny, go ahead.
HUTT: But I had a question. OK. So, my question is, here she`s having songs written about how much she loves him and the safe place he can fall, et cetera, so --
HUTT: So, my question for you, Dr. Drew and for Wendy and for any other psychologists on the panel is, could somebody just all of a sudden panic, like, I can`t believe I have my whole life ahead with him, crap, and then she tossed him. Like can someone freak like that?
PINSKY: Cheryl, I would say not without some real serious, what we call empathic failure. You have to have some proclivities. Would you agree?
WALSH: Exactly. Go Cheryl.
CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., @DRCHERYLARUTT: Well, her thinking, it just seems to be very primitive and very kind of black and white, and she loves or hates and it seems to me that there is, as Loni Coombs said earlier, a real immaturity about the way she`s gone about this. If she`s having a wedding and decides to go for it, she gets this song written with all of these sort of very idealized things about it that now, you know, give people chills.
But you know, the way she covered this up and the way that she tweeted and posed and postured after he was lying there, are so disturbing. We really need to find out more about what`s going on.
WALSH: And the fact that she didn`t report him missing. That`s the main thing.
PINSKY: And, Cheryl and Wendy, I think it was you that pointed out last week that, perhaps, he was lying down there dying. He may not have died in the fall. He may have died of exposure from not having been reported after the fall.
WALSH: If it was an accident, the first thing you would do is call 911. If there is an accident, you call 911.
PINSKY: Judge Karen was giving her little wiggle room. And now, it`s interesting to see how the legal system will deal with it, but all of us have a great discomfort with this one. Thank you, guys.
Next up, we`re going to talk about the parents of a 26-year-old Catherine Groves. They say that she is in a church in Texas being brainwashed. Now, other families are coming forward with similar stories. That`s the lady that`s being held, but she`s free to go if she wants, but their family is saying that they are being -- they`re using powers of persuasion that make her not understand what she`s gotten herself into. "Behavior Bureau" looks at that after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We feel like she is being controlled and told what to say and what to do. We had no idea that they were going to cut us off from all communication to her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just one of many false allegations that have been made.
LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY: The minute you tell me that a 26-year-old girl can`t go talk to her parents by herself, I got a problem with it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That`s right. Now, we`re back with the "Behavior Bureau" and my co-host Jenny Hutt. We all have a problem with this. The parents of 26-year-old Catherine Grove say the church has brainwashed their daughter, forced her to cut ties with them. Now, other parents are stepping up and claiming similar stories.
On the phone, I have KETK reporter, Nicole Vowell, who broke this story. Nicole, you have some breaking news for us?
NICOLE VOWELL, REPORTER, KETK: Dr. Drew, you know, you just said it. ever since this story came out in early September, I have personally been flooded with e-mails and phone calls with parents of children that have -- that are in this church as well that have children in the church saying, you know, some of them are afraid to come forward on the record. Others are not. Others are considering it.
But what I`m gathering, and I`ve now talked to almost a dozen parents, other than the Groves, and they have all validated pretty much everything that the Groves are saying and they`re thanking me for shedding some light on this, finally. And, you know, tears, heartbreak, despair. I`ve been sobbed to on the phone by parents from different states all over the country that they have lost their daughters and family members to this church.
And I think it`s really important, Dr. Drew, to point something out here now -- something the doctrine of judgment. I want to point out just one quick quote, if I can. There`s something called the "Doctrine of Judgment" written by Sean Morris (ph), the head ringleader of the elder of the church (ph).
And it says here in the "doctrine of judgment," parents are swine (ph) who are ready at any circumstance to outwit you and they must be dealt with accordingly. You must be divided from your family for your own salvation because your family is --
PINSKY: Very, very powerful information. Thank you so much for that. I`ll start with Wendy. You know, these are the hallmarks of a cult. I`m not saying this is necessarily a cult. I don`t know. I don`t acknowledge (ph). But all the hallmarks. I spoke to Rick Ross (ph) over the weekend who does the programming of cults.
He concurred that all the earmarks there. And they`re far more common than people realize. Wouldn`t you say, Wendy?
WALSH: Yes. I think it`s really easy to brainwash young, especially young impressionable people and look at the elders. What did you call them, jenny? The church of hot guys? They`re young guys we`re calling elders but let`s get real. These are guys who are good looking in their early 20s, luring women on the internet who may be having already some family problems and getting them there.
And then sitting them in boarded up windows and now we know that there was even a dead baby produced who they prayed over instead of getting medical care for. Enough said.
PINSKY: Wow. Wow. Cheryl, your thoughts?
ARUTT: My thoughts, I mean, it`s like a modern version of don`t trust anybody over 30. I mean, this is really alarming that they are using these techniques to -- the only way that people can really take action legally very often is if it`s a child or an elderly person because, unfortunately, there`s a presumption that adults have their own free will and they don`t really take into account that people can control someone without necessarily locking them in place.
PINSKY: Cheryl, I`ve got to interrupt here. Up against the clock. I completely agree with you. I`m sorry. I want to get the input from more of you. We want to keep watching this story. "Last Call" is next.
PINSKY: "Last Call" goes to Vicki Farris (ph) who`s a Jenny Hutt Twitter follower. She tweets, "Don`t see the bruise. So, good cover-up, Jenny." Domestic violence? What happened?
HUTT: I knocked my head when I opened the car door right into myself. Well done.
PINSKY: Jenny (INAUDIBLE), who would have known? Thank you so much all for watching. Jenny, thank you. "HLN After Dark" begins right now.