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Deadly Shooting at Washington Navy Yard

Aired September 16, 2013 - 21:00   ET


PIERS MORGAN, CNN ANCHOR: This is PIERS MORGAN LIVE. Welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world. Breaking news, another deadly mass shooting, this time in the heart of the nation's capital. Here is what we know right now. At least 13 dead in the attack this morning on the Washington Navy Yard. That toll includes one suspect. The FBI identifies him as Aaron Alexis, a 34-year-old military contractor, a former reservist from Texas employed by a company called "The Experts," a subcontractor to Hewlett-Packard. The Navy says he was awarded the National Defense Service Medal and the Global War on Terrorism Service Medal, but he was discharged at what's been called a pattern of misconduct. Anyone with more information on Alexis is urged to call 1-800-CALL-FBI.

More reports says he was armed with an AR-15 and then a rifle and a semiautomatic Glock. They believe he used the AR-15 for most if not all of the shooting. That gun was legally purchased. No word yet on the motive but the attack targeted the workplace of high level Navy personnel.

The entire CNN team is of course working this story tonight. I want to bring first of all my colleague Wolf Blitzer who's live in Washington. Wolf, a devastating attack at the heart of Washington, you've been there all day doing some terrific reporting. The obvious question, I guess following this is, how does the man with his background a couple of gun-related incidents, discharged from the army of a pattern of misconduct, how does he get clearance to enter one of the most secured military bases in America and do what he did?

WOLF BLITZER, CNN: He had a pass that apparently allowed him to enter the day the Yard that's right behind me. Right now it's clearly a mystery that's going to be the question right now, how does he get those top secret security clearances, how do -- has with someone that did have at least two incidents involving gun use raising all sorts of questions but as you point out he also received two medals if you will during his active duty in military service.

So these are questions that I'm sure the US Navy, the US Military, the FBI which is now in charge of this investigation they're going to be going through all of his life basically within the next few days I think all of these details will be cutting off publicly as well.

MORGAN: We believe now that the FBI are convinced it was just the work of this lone shooter that contrary to earlier reports there was nobody else involved. And they've also ruled out an active terrorism.

BLITZER: There's this saying now despite some of the comments from local Washington DC law enforcement, Cathy Lanier, the DC Police Chief and others that they were looking -- at one point they were looking for two suspects then they were looking for one.

Now, the FBI and other federal investigators think this was the work strictly of this one individual, one shooter and they can't completely rule out terrorism. This is according to the mayor of Washington DC, Vincent Gray although there's no indication that there was some political agenda if you will as -- that caused this massacre at the Navy Yard behind me.

MORGAN: Wolf Blitzer, thank you very much indeed.

Patricia Ward is a Navy Logistics Management Specialist who had just bought breakfast when she heard gunfire coming from the open cafeteria. She joins me now on the phone. Welcome to you, Patricia Ward, obviously a terrifying thing to have to go through, tell me exactly what happened.

PATRICIA WARD, NAVY LOGISTICS MANAGEMENT SPECIALIST: Well, I was in the cafeteria this morning. I was standing in line purchasing my breakfast and I heard three gun shots and I knew they were gun shots and now the people in the cafeteria kind of like panicked and looked and I said, "Those were gun shots." So, they didn't know which way to go and they will going to stay in the cafeteria and I said, "No, we got to get out of here." So we ran to the side of the cafeteria, bowed low (ph) and dock. So we were able to escape outside of the (inaudible) dock where the security guard was and she had her gun drawn and she told us just run far, far, far away from the building. So I just kept running.

MORGAN: Now, there are 3,000 people who work at the base, how secure is it would you say?

WARD: Well, I thought the base was very secured. I mean, we never had any major incidents like this since I've been working in there since 2000 (ph).

MORGAN: How many people would be armed in the base itself? I'm told there are armed security guards, armed police that the civilians that worked there are not allowed to carry a gun, is that correct?

WARD: Yeah.

MORGAN: And are there many armed security guards? Are you aware of their presence?

WARD: Yeah, there are security guards inside the building, outside the buildings, around the building as you enter the gate. There is a couple of gates should been (ph) coming and out and there are security all around.

MORGAN: So when people call this a gun-free zone, it's not a gun-free zone at all. It's actually a place that is very heavily guarded by people who have guns. This man appears to have gotten inside with his own identity. He had clearance to do so. But he was carrying an AR- 15 assault rifle, another rifle and a handgun, would somebody carrying weapons in the way that he was immediately ring alarm bells inside the base?

WARD: Well, I don't know how he was able to get in on the base. I don't know, you know, exactly what he had. I didn't see it coming. Only the thing I can account for is me hearing the shot and running out the building and telling to other people to run with me, that's all I could, you know, I don't understand how he was able to get in the building with those types of weapons and that we don't have any metal detectors, for one thing. So, I don't know ...

MORGAN: Because presumably -- presumably Patricia, you have to go through some kind of security check to get inside the building?

WARD: When you come inside the gate, yes, you have to show your cache (ph) card. If you have details on your card, I guess they still look at those. But, I don't know how he came in, whether he drove or walk up, I'm not sure.

MORGAN: Do you need to go through metal detectors?

WARD: No, we don't have any metal detectors.

MORGAN: It seems extraordinary. Are the military base which should be such a -- an obvious security target.

WARD: I don't know. I don't understand that, you know. I guess that's the security team to decide.

MORGAN: Are you going back to work Patricia tomorrow?

WARD: No, I will not. No. I don't think I will be coming back the rest of this week.

MORGAN: What is your feeling towards the man that put you through this and so many of your colleagues?

WARD: I'm terrified. I'm stressed. I'm tired. You know, I mean, just listening to the rain of gunshots, ambulance, and fire trucks, and the helicopters, I've never experienced this before.

MORGAN: Well, I'm so sorry for what you've been through Patricia. No one's have to go through this work in a way that you did or into anywhere else. Absolutely awful experience for you. Thank you very much indeed for joining me.

WARD: You're welcome.

MORGAN: Well, learning more about the suspected shooting tonight, Aaron Alexis was in Navy Reserves. He's been discharged after what's been called a pattern of misconduct. Most recently, he worked for some contractor to Hewlett-Packard and CNN's Joe Johns is here with more.

Joe, what do we know about this man because it seems to be a guy of conflicting character references. On the one hand, he seems quite shy and very well-behaved, never caused any trouble, on the other, a little clue here and there incidents involving firearms, misconduct later being discharged from the Navy, who is the real Aaron Alexis?

JOE JOHNS, CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: That picture really is just emerging Piers. And you're right. It's a study in contrast.

One of the most interesting things I think I've heard for awhile is a government official who lives outside Washington DC came here last week and told me she met Aaron Alexis at a Washington DC hotel in Southwest. It's the Residence Inn on Tuesday, had a long conversation with him. He told her, she said that he worked in IT security and she said she was surprised and a little bit in disbelief because she thought he was a little too young and too pleasant to be involved in IT security, whatever that means. But, she talked to him on Tuesday, she talked to him again on Wednesday, and now, in less than a week later, she saw his picture on TV and gave us a call to say that she'd met him there.

The authorities we're told believed that he did in fact stay at that Residence Inn and actually went to that hotel to check him out. Now, some of the other biological -- biographical, I should say, information we've heard about this man, 34 years old was in the Navy Reserves from 2007 to 2011 got out apparently became a contractor after that, also had some run-ins in the law including in 2010, indiscriminate use of a firearm in Texas, another example of that, dating all the way back to 2004 in the State of Washington in Seattle.

So, both of those incidents seem to involve both anger and the use of firearms. So, now, moving forward, when you look at what's happened out here, police say he's the suspect, you can sort of conclude that anger and firearms is a theme that apparently has run through this man's life for awhile, Piers.

MORGAN: Well, it does seem extraordinary that he would then get full clearance both from his employer, the subcontractor, but also from the military to go straight on to a base like this, obviously a big territory, a bigger base like this. We know now that he was armed with three guns, an AR-15 assault rifle, we believe another rifle, and semiautomatic Glock handgun. We think he used the AIR15 for most if not all of the shooting.

But it does pop the question, Joe, this is, you know, he's just started at this new base. How could somebody like this with this background just walk on to a base, on to the tip like this, and get inside and be in a position to kill all these people?

JOHNS: Oh, yes. I asked an undersecretary of the Navy that question as well as a top official, an admiral. And no one really has answers at least right now. What they will tell me is that in order to be on that base, the only person who's supposed to have a firearm is someone who's in the military police. So, there is a question I think as to whether, you know, he brought all of these weapons on to the base with him or if perhaps he brought one or another and then acquired another along the way because we do know a security guard was actually shot. A lot of questions still to be answered about how he got control of those firearms, Piers.

MORGAN: Joe Johns, a lot to be asked. Thank you very much indeed. When we come back, the latest on the investigation and the doctor who treated victims of today's attack has said there's something wrong in this country when we have so many multiple shootings.


JANIS ORLOWSKI, CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER MEDSTAR: There's something wrong here when we have these multiple shootings, these multiple injuries. There's something wrong. The only thing that I can say is we have to work together to get rid of it. So I have to say, you know, it is a challenge to all of us. Let's get rid of this. This is not America. This is not Washington, DC.



MORGAN: We're now going to go to Janis Orlowski. She is the COO at the MedStar Hospital in Washington.

Janis Orlowski, I watched earlier, a very powerful moment where you expressed your, I guess, fury in distress that you were still having to deal with these kind of mass shootings. Tell me, what prompted you to react like that and expand on what you were saying?

ORLOWSKI: Well, you know, Piers, I'm a doctor. I work everyday and deal with facts and figures and people and persons. And so I'm quite at the end of the news conference, someone, you know, had sort of threw out a question regarding what's it like to deal with people at a trauma center.

And I have to say I had a moment where I told you exactly what I think. I wish that we didn't have to deal with senseless trauma. I wish that we had a way to close a trauma unit for something like this.

I think it's great that we have a trauma unit, that we serve the people of Washington, that we do as well as we do. But you know what? America put me out of business. Make it so I don't have to have a trauma center. And there was an emotion and a feeling that I have to tell you. I felt today as I watched these poor people come in and get care with us.

MORGAN: And obviously, the reason is that you're dealing with this constantly. And America is dealing constantly now with these mass shootings which are rising faster and more dramatically, Aurora, Sandy Hook, and now there's three of the worst mass shootings in modern American history.

You're at the sharp end of this. How do we change things? I mean you're a good person to talk to because you deal with picking up the pieces.

ORLOWSKI: I don't know that I have the answers. But I believe that as a society, we're strong enough and smart enough to work together to try to find the answers. A lot of times, as I take a look at these incidents, it has to do with us dealing with the mentally ill in our society or people who have problems.

I actually know the people down in Arizona and what they said to me after the shooting there with the representative, what they said to me is, "If we have stronger mental health here in Arizona, you won't be interviewing the trauma surgeons."

And so, I think that we have to look at and prioritize and say, "How do we deal with people?" It's not right, it's not good, it's not normal to get up in the morning and walk through a workplace with a shotgun and shoot to death, you know, to death the 12 of the people that you've worked with and send another couple to the hospital.

So, I don't know that I have all the answers, but I think that we've got to work hard together on this and we've got to stop this. We can't have a one mass shooting after another. This is something that we have to stand up, shout, and be done with.

MORGAN: The AR-15 that was used today was used in Utah. It was used in Aurora. It's been used in almost all of the mass shootings in the last two years or so in America. You have seen the damage that this weapon can do.

To those who don't really comprehend it, describe to me the kind of injuries that you see.

ORLOWSKI: Well, what I would tell you is that the injuries that we see in our emergency room are very dramatic. We see people who've been shot in the head. We see people where bullets have torn into their bodies or into their limbs. These are traumatic. These are very grievous injuries.

It's -- I'll tell you that many of our military colleagues that we worked with and we have a very good relationship with, many of them keep their skills up-to-date by doing non-combat trauma, by working with us in our trauma unit that has the level of the injuries that we see.

MORGAN: And in terms of the injured today, at least 12, I mean 13 more people were injured and those who so tragically lost their lives. How many of you been treating the way you are and what is the current set of their condition?

ORLOWSKI: Sure, I'd be happy to tell you. So there were three individuals who required transport to our trauma unit. One was the DC police officer. He was shot in both of his legs, it swerved across his knees. He has been in surgery and already out. He's doing very well, had a chance to talk to him after his surgery, but I tell you he's in good spirits, he's got a recovery period ahead of him but I expect him to fully recover.

We had another woman who was shot in the shoulder, she is either just finishing up surgery or should be out of surgery just about this time.

And then the last story is a woman who was transported to us. She was actually shot in the back of the head and from what you can tell from her injury she must have tried to shield herself because she had actually a shot in the tip of her finger and then the back of her head. And luckily for her the bullet came through her skin but did not actually go into the bone or into the skull itself. So, she didn't require surgery.

She is very, very concerned about her colleagues trying to get in touch with them, but otherwise I would tell you she is going to do well and considering the fright that she had today and the injury hit that she had today she's doing quite well.

MORGAN: Janis Orlowski you do an extraordinary job not just today but on a daily basis, you and your team and I applaud you for what you said earlier. I really do, it needs more people in America to stand up and be counted in the way that you were today. So, thank you for what you do and for what you said.

ORLOWSKI: Well, thank you very much. Thank you. Have a good evening.

MORGAN: Remarkable woman. This investigation is just beginning and a lot of unanswered questions, joining me now a man who knows a lot about how the FBI maybe preceding. Shawn Henry is the President of CrowdStrike Services and The Former Executive Assistant Director of the FBI joins me now from the Navy Yard.

Shawn Henry, in terms of the investigation and from all that you gleaned to date, are we dealing, do you think definitely with a long shooter here?

SHAWN HENRY, PRESIDENT OF CROWDSTRIKE SERVICES, FMR. EXECUTIVE ASSISTANT DIRECTOR FBI: I don't know that you can make the determination right now. This is going to be an evolving investigation and it maybe many days or even weeks before we know that for certain. Right now the FBI will be looking to make that determination. The primary goal is to ensure that there are no other shooters out there; there are no other potential acts.

So, they'll be looking to determine if Alexis was working by himself or not or if he had co-conspirators.

MORGAN: It did some sort of old state of affairs that the FBI seeking information after the shooter is dead, what do you make of that?

HENRY: I think that that's actually the right protocol. This is an intelligence investigation right now, what's important is to gather as many facts as you can. And quite frankly the general public has a lot of information, people that may have passed him in a restaurant; they might have seen him at the mall. So, they might have sold him ammunition perhaps.

So, the FBI wants to reach out to the public to get as much information as they can so that they can fully vet all the potential issues and ensure that they run all of these leads to ground.

MORGAN: Are you surprised that this man got security clearance given his background? And are you even more surprised as I am that he's able to walk fully armed into a base of his nature and do what he did? HENRY: Well, I don't know that it's clear right now how he actually got the weapons on to the base whether he was in some type of the work track; I'm not clear on what his access was. And certainly, security the military base is a prime target for terrorist potentially, it's well-guarded and well-maintained. So, it's really not clear. Certainly is a cause for a some surprise given the potential or possible security that they would maintain.

MORGAN: I mean after the Fort Hood massacre you just assume that it is very, very, very difficult to be able to walk into a base like this with his kind of background tipped you while he's just started working there and walking with an AR-15 and nobody at this is going to stop him.

HENRY: Right, well I mean there are hundreds of thousands of people that work on these types of bases everyday, security is always a balance obviously, you want to make things as secure as possible but the reality is at the end of the day people have to come and go, there are trucks that come on, they deliver goods, food, equipment, those sorts of things.

So, there is any number of ways something like this could have happened, this is what's going to be determined in the next few days or weeks as the FBI and state local law enforcement partners continue to round out these leads and try to determine the entire timeline of what's occurred and ensure that they've got ground truth on who this man is and who his coconspirators may have been.

MORGAN: Shawn Henry, thank you very much indeed.

When we come back I'm sure we are here to debate on perhaps the most important issue facing America tonight, gun violence, we'll go head to head with three people they come talking nonsense the former NRA Operative, the man who says, "More guns equals less crime." And the man who says, "Gun-free zones won't keep you safe." That's after the break.


MORGAN: I've been no secretive about where I stand on guns in America. Nothing happened today has changed my mind. Joining me now, three men who disagree with me, Richard Feldman, President of Independent Firearms Owners Association, also Ben Ferguson, CNN Political Commentator and John Lott the author of "More Guns, Less Crimes", your book is dumbing down the courts. Welcome to you all.

Ben Ferguson, I was just reading your tweet 11 minutes ago, you said, "Piers Morgan thinks the gun used today is the problem that should be banned. I think today's proof anti-gun ideas are total failure." How on earth do you justify that tweet?

BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well look at DC, first of all in DC you're not allowed to own any semiautomatic rifle. It's been against the law for a long time so this gun shouldn't have been there.

MORGAN: So where did he buy? Where did he buy the M-15?

FERGUSON: Well, we don't know where he bought it.

MORGAN: Where did he buy it? No, we do know where he bought it.

FERGUSON: We don't know. First of all you're assuming he bought it.

MORGAN: No, he didn't steal it.

FERGUSON: Why can't you let me go on? Do you know that he bought it?

MORGAN: Because I'm telling a fact Ben. He bought it legally in Virginia, legally in Virginia. This is the problem with America's gun laws. It's not legal where he did the act it's legal around the corner. There's no federal ban on M-15s, so that's why they keep being used.

FERGUSON: All right but in DC today, he broke the law bringing in. Second thing is, you can even have a permit to carry a gun, a handgun much less this gun in DC, that's the other issue and finally in 1993, Bill Clinton signed Executive Order banning guns by civilians or others on military bases that's part of the reason why Fort Hood happened the way that it did.

So you had all of these ideas of anti-gun today. They were all in place. They were all perfectly executed and it was a failure in this base with all the best security in the world.

So the idea that somehow we can pass a law to stop crazy people, or you think that if we pass a law to get rid of this one gun that somehow he wouldn't have acted today. He did bring a gun with him by the way which is also against the law in DC. It's not working, Piers, that's the problem.

MORGAN: OK, I'll tell you what isn't working is the failure to do anything to even clot down on AR-15s.

Richard Feldman, here is some statistics for you. This is from Mother Jones who analyzed the mass shootings in America going back to 1982. There have not been 67 mass shootings. They've based this on the FBI clarification of four or more people killed, and they've chosen the criteria of by a single shooter in an outdoor scenario. 67 mass shootings in America since 1982. 30 of those have occurred since 2006, seven in 2012 alone, and five so far this year.

So a dramatic escalation in mass shootings in America in the last seven or eight years, or so. Why do you think that's not a problem here?

RICHARD FELDMAN, PRESIDENT INDEPENDENT FIREARMS OWNERS ASSOCIATION: Well, there is a problem here, Piers, when our failure as a nation is to even talk about the complexity of the problem. You know, Piers, after the tragedy last year at Sandy Hook, everyone seemed to have is one of their talking points, mental health. And as soon as we said mental health, that was check, but we never had an adult conversation in this country about the problems with our mental health system. And just earlier today, I was speaking with Dr. Cedric Alexander, the Chief of Police in DeKalb County, Georgia where there was a shooting incident two weeks ago that didn't lead to any injuries. And he was, you know, frustrated as millions and millions of Americans are, but we sort of lose track with the problem. And instead of staying focused on the problem, we started talking about the particular type of gun use as though being shot with a different type of gun would somehow be better or worse instead of focusing on the problem.

MORGAN: But the real problem though isn't it, John Lott and you and I have debated this after almost every mass shooting in the last three years. Is it you guys just never accept that the gun itself can't ever be part of the problem. Is that your answer to all these shootings is on more people?

Now, let's take what happened to them because the NRA has been furiously silent today. NRA doesn't want to say anything about this. And here's why. Because the Washington Navy Yard is heavily secured, it is crawling in arms security, people, arms, police. And yet it was still infiltrated by a man with a legally purchased AR-15, who just committed the same kind of atrocity as we saw at Sandy Hook, and Aurora. And yet, I'm sure, John Lott, you're going to explain to me now why the solution is not to deal with that gun which keeps being used to do these atrocities, but is to arm even more people in that building. Is that right?

FELDMAN: On this case.

JOHN LOTT, AUTHOR MORE GUNS, LESS CRIMES: I would agree with that earlier and I would say I'd go even further. And that is when you go and ban guns from certain areas, when you don't allow our soldiers or Naval officers to be able to go and carry guns. You actually create a magnet for these types of attacks to occur.

I have to say the numbers that you're using from Mother Jones are simply wrong. If you look at any of the academics who have gathered data, there's no big increase that occurs in recent years. What essentially is this Mother Jones used different definitions to measure these attacks over time. It's not a very reliable source.

MORGAN: So just to clarify Mr. Lott. Just to clarify. You are stating for the record that when Mother Jones with the specific criteria that I gave you, when they say there have been 70 shooting incidents in America where four or more people have been killed by a lone shooter in an outdoor scenario. You are saying they are inventing those statistics?

LOTT: I'm saying multiple people have said that they're wrong in terms of their numbers.

MORGAN: Are you a (inaudible) expert in this. Are you prepared to say now, for the record, that Mother Jones is simply inventing these statistics, that these mass shootings that they have recorded in great detail which are published on their website simply didn't happen? Is that what your opposition? LOTT: No, I didn't say they didn't happen. I said that they used different -- they don't use a consistent standard, and so if they make look like ...

MORGAN: Well they do, they make it very clear where they got (inaudible) is.

LOTT: ... more occurring now than there used to be.


MORGAN: But there are more occurring now than laws.


MORGAN: They are. There have been -- Let me repeat for you.

LOTT: That's not true.

MORGAN: Let me repeat for you. Since 1982 using Mother -- let me, please, allow me to repeat ...

LOTT: Piers, if you really want to rely on Mother Jones ...

MORGAN: ... you can't do what you always do which is simply spin the statistics. Let me repeat to you the facts. Since 1982, there have not been 70 mass shootings in America.

LOTT: Is there -- Is it really necessary?

MORGAN: Of those, 30 have happened since 2006. Of those, 13 from the last 20 months, of those 13, three have been three of the worst ...

LOTT: Piers, yelling isn't going to make those numbers right. Look ...

MORGAN: What does make them wrong John Lott?

LOTT: You can -- Professor Fox at Northeastern University, others have looked at this and they would warn you to be careful not to use those numbers.

FERGUSON: But Piers, let me -- let's get back to today's shooting ...

LOTT: Other people would go and argue that there hasn't been that increase overtime, not just myself.

FERGUSON: All right, but Piers let's get back in this ...

MORGAN: OK, Ben Ferguson -- Ben, let me ask you this Ben, in the last ...

LOTT: The problem here is that this gun-free zones ...

MORGAN: Wait a second, please, John let me turn to Ben Ferguson.

LOTT: ... create a magnet ...

MORGAN: John Lott, please, one moment. Ben Ferguson, Aurora was the biggest single shooting in America by one shooter in terms of hundred of people that he hit, 70 people.


LOTT: It's a gun-free zone.

MORGAN: Sandy Hook it came a few months later was the worst school shooting in American history.

LOTT: Gun-free zone.

MORGAN: We've now seen the second worst military base shooting in modern American history.

LOTT: Gun-free zone.

MORGAN: At what point given the all three were committed by people -- well, they're not gun-free zone, are they John Lott?


FERGUSON: But, Piers let me say this because this is important for us to look at today. Hold on everybody, just give me a second, OK? You look at what happened today and there are two ways to look at this. You want to blame the AR-15 and you think that if we ban this AR-15, federally ban it that somehow that is going to fix the issue. I look at it differently Piers and I look at it from this perspective.

When you allow these places to go where the only people there that they can -- that can protect these individuals are those at the gate at the front door with the gun, the MPs are there same thing that happened in Fort Hood, once this guy and we don't know yet how he infiltrated it, OK? We know that the guys that were there minding their own business, doing their jobs played by the rules.

They did not bring a gun in. They're not allowed to, based on an Executive Order by Bill Clinton in 1993. When you allow a military base to be able to be infiltrated by an individual like this and at that point he has pre-arraign and tell those people with guns at the gate can find him and look how many hours we had a lot down today and we had a lot of information about not knowing how many shooters there were or where they were or if they have them all.

MORGAN: Ben. Ben, Ben. Ben.

FERGUSON: You continue to look at this -- let me finish this. It's important. You continue to look at this based on the gun as evil. I say don't set up people whether it be a movie theater or a school or a military base for failure by having a gun-free zone unless you are a law enforcement official at that base, at that movie theater, at that school.

MORGAN: But Ben with respect it's not a gun-free zone. The Washington Navy Base was hit today is pulling in on security. Wait a minute. The very same armed security you guys have called for after the Sandy Hook, after Aurora you wanted armed guards at movie theaters, armed guards at schools, there were armed guards at the Naval base and it made absolutely no difference.

LOTT: Piers, you know, I haven't called to that.

FERGUSON: This is the reason why we are in favor -- this is the reason why we're not calling for armed guards because they cannot work and today is proof of that. We are saying that if you were in the United States Navy and we trust you with Navy ships and war, why the hell wouldn't we trust you to carry your weapon to work with you when we trust you with top secret information in accordance ...

MORGAN: OK, you're missing that point, Ben, I'm talking (inaudible)

FERGUSON: I'm not missing the point.

MORGAN: Yeah, but Ben Ferguson, you are addressing ...

LOTT: Piers, here's the problem with armed guns.

MORGAN: You are addressing members of the Armed Forces all the victims today were civilians, so it's a completely factual point to me.

LOTT: And some of those civilians should be able to protect themselves.

MORGAN: They're not military people, they were civilians.


MORGAN: I'm going to leave it there that we have this debate every time. I want the day to come when we don't have to have this ridiculous debate time and again in America. AR-15 killing multiple Americans I just can not have this debate anymore and it's ridiculous. Do something about it and the three gentlemen, who just came on, think about your position. Think about how it helps save American lives because it doesn't. More guns is not the answer.

Anyway, we'll leave until the next time because there will be a next time.

Next, inside the mind of the shooter. There's no known motive for the carnage of the Navy Yard, not yet. Anyway, when we come back a thought and mental health expert, and a profiler, who may have some idea what was driving him.


MORGAN: What drove the suspect in the Navy Yard's shooting? Joining me now is Candice DeLong former FBI agent criminal profiler who's the host of "Facing Evil with Candice DeLong" on Investigation Discovery, and Dr. Charles Sophy, a psychiatrist and Medical Director of LA Council Department of the Children and Family Studies. Welcome to you both.

Candice DeLong, from what we know about this shoot today, is it a simple as a disaffected employee, somebody who'd been bounced out from the Navy perhaps more a grudge about that, apparently had some financial issue with his current employees? Can it be as simple as that or are we talking about somebody with an underlying serious mental health issue?

CANDICE DELONG, FORMER FIBI AGENT, HOST OF FACING EVIL WITH CANDICE DELONG: It might be as simple as that. That is the most common type of person that we see doing these things. Now, in the absence of severe mental illness such as a thought disorder, schizophrenia, delusions, such as Jared Loughner in Tucson and James Holmes appears to be in Colorado.

In the absence of severe mental illness such as that, generally the type of person that we see committing this mass shooting is someone who is disenfranchised. And he is angry. And he feels his life is a mess because of others. They tend to not blame themselves. And a lot of times the main motivator behind these mass shootings is they're motivated by revenge. The person is angry at the world. They don't look at themselves as the problem. And they want to make others pay for their pain. They're psychological.


DELONG: That's the most common thing. And they tend do it along.

MORGAN: OK, Dr. Sophy there's an interesting revelation from his father. He said that Alexis, his son had anger management issues associated with PDST after working on rescues during September the 11th. Could that in any way had been partly had trigger for what happened?

CHARLES SOPHY, PSYCHIATRIST: Absolutely. But it depends if it was treated or not, was it really diagnosed, is it just what somebody thinks he might have had, were there substances on board, let us see what his toxicology's going to look like if they can get some. But, yes, they were red flags. And guess that could have definitely been something that triggered.

MORGAN: Is it a fact today, 8,175 Americans have been killed by guns ...


MORGAN: ... since the New Town shooting. And I hear that. And, you know, the comparative figure in Britain would be about 25 ...


MORGAN: ... Australia 25, Germany 40 maybe, Japan 2. Just feel heartache when you see this kind of statistic and see another mass shooting. This is America.

SOPHY: Absolutely. But the common threat I see in all of that is anger. People who are lost, they're struggling. And what is triggering all of that I think the common thing is angry. Yes, it's absolute change.

MORGAN: But anger manifested into violence by a gun?

SOPHY: Absolutely. Absolutely. They have that vehicle to manifest it.

MORGAN: What's the answer?

SOPHY: Well, I think the answer is to really takes a look at these cases and see are there common threads in there. Are there mental health issues, substance of issues, socioeconomic issues, because that's the common stuff that's driving people's behavior, and then they have access to guns.

MORGAN: Dr. Sophy and Candice DeLong, thank you both very much.

When we come back, the man who stared d done another mass shooter and lived to tell about it, Staff Sergeant Alonzo Lunsford surviving shot by Major Nidal Hasan of Fort Hood. He joins me next.


MORGAN: My next guest knows exactly what is like to be called a mass shooting at the base like in the Navy Yard Staff Sergeant Alonzo Lunsford was repeatedly shot by Major Nidal Hasan in the Fort Hood massacre in 2009. Hasan of course is sentenced to death for the killings of 13 people. Star Sergeant Lunsford joins me.

Now Staff Sergeant, thank you for joining me again. We've had a couple of very emotional interviews in recent months and I'm sure tonight will be exception because this must have brought back everything to you as another military base almost as many people killed, innocent civilians going about their day's work blown the pieces by this man. What is your reaction?

STAFF SERGEANT ALONZO LUNSFORD: Well, here is one thing it was shocking to me and it go back a lot of memories from November 5th 2009. And one of the things that I have to ask is there again what are we going to do to prohibit this actually from happening again over and over again in our country?

MORGAN: What is the answer? You see I've tried to debate this rationally with people, but when I have the three gentlemen we had earlier so implacably opposed to any form of new gun control, whatsoever, no background checks, carry on having huge magazines, 3200 bullets, carry on civilians having assault riffles whenever they want them, buying them off the shelves in Wal-Mart. If you can't even get those kind of things in any kind of sensible gun control legislation what hope is there?

LUNSFORD: Well, right now, today it appears that there is no hope, but there is hope and there's light at the end of tunnel. One of the things we have to do is to make sure that our local municipality law enforcement, our state law enforcement and a military start training together or to be on a same shoot and use it so that we can handle mass casualty situations, so that it won't be three different agencies working and they're speaking their own language, so that we can get a better handle for situations like this.

Two, we need to improve security as far as gun control we need to tighten the range as far as who is able to purchase weapons.

My thought is a little different than most, I don't believe that guns kill people, people kill people. We just have to limit those individuals who have access to these weapons.

MORGAN: I mean it's obviously true that people kill people, because they have to fire the guns. But it's also true that there's been a massive escalation of mass shootings in recent years in America and almost every mass shooting I report on involves an AR15 assault rifle. It is the preferred mass shooters weapon of choice, and yet I don't see any logical reason and you're a military man why any civilian needs to have one of these killing machines?

LUNSFORD: Well, a lot of civilians they purchase one because what you have to look at, Piers is that a lot of times different fractions glorify in AR15 or in automatic rifle. If you look at the games like Black Ops or Call of Duty, we have our children playing these games and it's glorified to see in the graphics of the game while people being blown to bits.

So if you've seen this is as a child and you're growing up then you think that its glory and is just as where when we talk to kids, when they see me, they say, "Oh, you've been shot seven times, you know, your life look the same." No I'm not. Bullet is hurt. They caused damage that is life long.

MORGAN: I think it's a very good point and I think also it's worth noting that friends of Aaron Alexis the shooter today believed that he was addicted to violent video games too, but people would tell you it has no effect. I don't agree. I think it can have an effect.

And Staff Sergeant, thank you very much for joining me again. And we'll be right back.


MORGAN: Tomorrow night my exclusive interview with Pastor Rick Warren, his very first since the suicide of his son.


PSTR. RICK WARREN: The danger is that it's not supposed to end like this because we had had close calls Matthew had made attempts on his life before in other ways. And we just kept, you know, when Matthew was born even as a young child, he struggled with mental illness. And so we knew that this day might happen some day but it's a day no parent wants. It's your worst nightmare. And I'll never forget. I'll never forget the agony of that moment.

(END VIDEO CLIP) MORGAN: Rich Warren and his wife Kay in a quite emotional, extraordinary and inspiring interview. That's tomorrow night.

Well that's all for us tonight. Stay with CNN for the latest on the Washington Navy Yard shootings. AC 360 Later starts right now.