Return to Transcripts main page


Police: Shooter Heard Voices

Aired September 17, 2013 - 21:00   ET



DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, the Navy Yard shooter. What sparked this deadly rampage? He had told police that he heard voices coming from the floor, the ceiling, and the microwave. Why were the signs that might have prevented this ignored, and how did he get a gun?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was very frustrated with the government and how as a veteran he didn`t feel like he was getting treated right or fairly.

PINSKY: My behavior bureau is on the case.

And Baby Elaina, was she murdered? Her grandfather is here, and he is not holding anything back.

RICHARD SCHIEWE, ANGELA`S STEPFATHER: She`s guilty of not taking care of that baby like she should have.

PINSKY: Let`s get started.



PINSKY: Good evening, and welcome.

My co-host, attorney and Sirius XM Radio host, Jenny Hutt.

Coming up, we have new information on the case of Baby Elaina. Her grandfather, whom you just saw on that tape, is here with us.

But, first, we`re talking about Aaron Alexis, the Navy Yard shooter. We are learning that he had issues, more importantly he had a gun. Take a look at this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hearing voices, sleepless nights, a history of gun arrests.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. Alexis entered Building 197 at the Navy Yard with a shotgun. We continue to look into Mr. Alexis` past, including his medical and criminal histories.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He got into a verbal altercation with a man during his flight. He believed the man sent three people to talk to him, to keep him awake and sent vibrations through his body.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One of the things he talked about was 9/11 and how he was there and he saw the towers come down.

REPORTER: Any guidance on whether this young man was seeking any kind of psychological treatment?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I can`t comment on that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Alexis apparently contacted two veterans affairs hospitals for psychological issues.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I saw the top part of his face, his eyes. And it was like it was a cold look, you know, just dazed.


PINSKY: People are getting this story so wrong, jenny, this is not psychological, it is psychiatric. We`re going to talk about why that`s different as the show goes on this evening.

Joining us now is CNN`s Ed Lavandera with the latest.

Ed, what do you got?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Well, some late developments here this evening. We`ve learned a CNN source tells us that the Navy knew back in 2007 of that Seattle arrest where Aaron Alexis shot out the tires of that car if you`re paying attention to that angle of the story.

There are a lot of questions tonight, Dr. Drew, about just what military officials knew, how he was able to obtain the clearances. But, you know, we`ve continued speaking with friends who knew him in the Ft. Worth, Texas area. And they talk about a like a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde kind of approach to his personality, that all of the details that are emerging about the attempts to reach the V.A. hospitals and the Aaron Alexis that they knew who worked at this Thai restaurant in Ft. Worth are having a hard time reconciling the vastly different images that have emerged of Aaron Alexis.

In fact, we spoke with a chose friend who spoke with him just a week ago as he was arriving into the Washington, D.C. area. She did tell us that he had not been sleeping well. Other friends had told us that he would stay up for hours and hours throughout the night playing violent video games.

One friend told us she thought he suffered from some sort of PTSD but wasn`t able to explain where that came from.

PINSKY: Right, Ed. Thank you so much.

I -- listen, this business about him having a sleep disorder, no way.

JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: And video games.

PINSKY: But that was one of the symptoms of his psychiatric syndrome. Also, the PTSD from 9/11 -- trust me 9/11 didn`t help. That does not paint the right picture of this guy. We`re going to get to that great detail.

Joining us now: attorney and CNN legal analyst, Danny Cevallos, Crystal Wright from, attorney Areva Martin, and new to our program, Ben Ferguson, CNN political commentator and the host of "The Ben Ferguson Show."

Crystal, first out to you. What are you thoughts on this case?

CRYSTAL WRIGHT, CONSERVATIVEBLACKCHICK.COM: Well, what really troubles is that Aaron Alexis had encounters with state and federal law enforcement and military. And two veteran hospitals, and yet, he slipped through the cracks. I think this is an example of how inept are the state and federal -- you know, so-called people who are supposed to protect us.

I mean, let`s think about this -- Aaron Alexis, he was, what, police dealt with him in three different states for gun possession and not just gun possession, but discharging guns, you know, when he`s not supposed to. Then the Navy was aware in 2004 of his, you know, misconduct with guns, if you will. They still admitted him in the Navy.

And then in 20 -- fast forward to 2012, his security clearance by the so-called, The Experts, more like the incompetent security contracting firm renewed his security clearance in 2013 of July. So --

PINSKY: Danny, I wonder if you agree.

WRIGHT: I don`t -- well, no, and I just want to say what bothers me is why aren`t -- why aren`t we -- you know, why isn`t law enforcement communicating with the state health care, you know, folks and records?

PINSKY: I could not agree with you more, Crystal. Listen, it`s driving me insane. I`m going to get a minute, after I hear from Ben, I`m going to put a list of five, or frankly six mass shooters we`ve had in the last couple of years.

WRIGHT: Right, you have mental illness.

PINSKY: Ben, I want to hear your point of view, first.


PINSKY: Absolutely, 100 percent.

BEN FERGUSON, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yet again here, with this shooting, the first thing that people did politically in this country, we want to blame the gun, we want to blame the gun industry. We want to blame that we should ban guns.

And the one common theme that I think we have to be very sensitive to at the same time, and also be very stern with is when we have so many run- ins when it comes to mental health, I think we can all agree tonight, this guy should not have had the security clearance that he had. He should never have been working where he was yesterday.

PINSKY: Nor a gun.

WRIGHT: Right.

FERGUSON: Nor a gun.

But the problem is, is there`s many people right now who are obsessed with an AR-15, which by the way wasn`t used, instead of being obsessed with mental health and checks and balances that should be coming with that, with law enforcement. That`s where the problem is tonight.

PINSKY: Jenny --

HUTT: OK, hold on a minute. I`m shaking my head because I think it`s the combination of the lack of dealing with the mental health situation and the giant walking red flag that was this Aaron Alexis, combined with the ease and access he had to this gun. Had he not had such --

WRIGHT: Oh, come on, Jenny.

HUTT: What? He wouldn`t have been able to take out the 12.


PINSKY: Hang on. Crystal, hang on. She was smiling quietly. I want to hear --


AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: I want to chime in. You know, Jenny, you`re absolutely correct. Whenever these mass shootings occur, everyone wants to talk about the issues, but they really don`t want to talk about the issues. We have to have that tough conversation about what information about somebody`s mental health are we willing to allow law enforcement agencies to have, because --


PINSKY: What is the answer to that?

MARTIN: You have to be determined incompetent by a court, because that`s what the law says today, and that`s a problem, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Yes, it`s a problem.

My other attorney, Danny, I want to know if you agree with Areva on that.

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Doctor, let me ask you this. Let me answer your question with a question. On the whole -- on the whole, the vast majority of individuals with mental illness, is it not true, they pose no more violent threat than anybody else, any other regular member of the citizenry?

PINSKY: Absolutely correct, Danny.


CEVALLOS: And so when you talk about -- now I need to respond.

PINSKY: Hold on, go ahead. Go ahead.

CEVALLOS: OK. So when it come, when I hear the dialog, this guy never should have had a gun. This person shouldn`t have a gun. I agree.

But I would also hike free ice cream in the mail. It`s easier said than done. The question becomes are --

WRIGHT: That`s not true.

CEVALLOS: -- are we going to eyeball everyone`s mental illness? We`ve heard dialog about video games, sleep deprivation. If we`re going -- we are never going to prevent every tragedy. There will always be monsters among us. They will always find a gun.


PINSKY: Hold on.

CEVALLOS: -- violent games, then when does it end? These tragedies will happen. There will always be monsters.

PINSKY: Here`s my thing, Danny, and most physicians -- any capable psychiatrist or physician evaluating this man would have known this is a guy who probably shouldn`t have a gun. But we have no resource! We have no recourse to go after that! We can`t do it.

We have to go to court to make them claim incompetent! He`s not incompetent, he seems to be having a psychotic illness in which he might become disconnected from reality and in which case, wielding a gun at that point might become really dangerous.

Let me give you a list of the five mass shooters, including Alexis in the last four years, Adam Lanza, Newtown massacre, Jared Lee Loughner, shot Gabby Giffords, James Holmes, Colorado movie theater, Christopher Dorner, ex-LAPD officer who wrote a six-page manifesto, who then went on killing rampage, the kid at Virginia Tech, the senior who killed 32 people, all with psychotic illness, easy for a doctor to get at the tech and report. But I guarantee you, particularly in the case of the kid in Colorado, you`re going to hear the psychiatrist tried to get him put into some sort of circumstance where he could be protected from himself and others but because we`re so PC, Crystal, we can`t judge anymore. We can`t do that.

WRIGHT: Right. Wait --

PINSKY: The individual right supersedes everybody else`s.

HUTT: Right.

WRIGHT: Can I say a fact please that nobody has mentioned?

PINSKY: Please.

WRIGHT: The reason why, the national, people refer to it as the national background check system. States are not providing mental health illness, you know, backgrounds on patient, many states are, have state laws that prevent the states from reporting up to the federal government, also on substance abuse. And in 1994, Janet Reno issued guidance actually telling the federal -- telling the federal government agencies not to report any kind of drug abuse among federal employees.

So, boom, so we do have a system in place, Dr. Drew, but states are not -- nobody`s reporting into it.

FERGUSON: But there`s a reason.

PINSKY: Hold on right there. Got a lot more to talk about amongst you guys.

Coming up, I have a former friend and co-worker of Aaron Alexis who will tell us what he knows about the gunman`s personal life and apparently his obsession with violent games. Danny reads a lot into that. I read nothing into that, really, really. It doesn`t make somebody psychotic.

Back after this.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We learned today about three arrests in the past, including two that involved gun violence, is this something you were aware of?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I figured being former military, and I figured I was still in the reserves that he had some association with weapons, but I knew of none that he carried on his person or that he had any, you know, dealings with guns other than that.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt.

Also back with us, Danny Cevallos. Crystal Wright, Areva Martin and Ben Ferguson.

I want to read a tweet to you from Lucia D. "So true when U.S. individual rights have superseded all other rights, like the rights of the public safety."

And I would say, in addition to individual rights, the need to be completely politically correct has superseded everything else.

And, Areva, you pointed out that it`s not a simple problem. I am deeply sensitive to patient confidentiality.

But can`t physician instinct have a place to go to put some teeth into this so we can protect the public?

MARTIN: I think absolutely, Dr. Drew, and I am in favor of, you know, making it more available, making this information more available to law enforcement.

You know, Danny said it`s easier said than done. Yes, it`s going to be difficult, but that doesn`t mean we shouldn`t tackle it. It is just unacceptable to have mass shooting after mass shooting, and then learn that these individuals have mental health issues and that they shouldn`t have guns.

We`ve tackled health care in this country. We`ve tackled gang violence. We`ve tackled some very difficult problems. We`ve got to put our nose to the grindstone and have the heart to step up on these issues.

PINSKY: Danny --

MARTIN: We have to, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Danny, go ahead.

CEVALLOS: Have we? We`ve tackled those? I had no idea those issues were completely resolved, gang violence and health care.

MARTIN: We`ve tackled them.

CEVALLOS: The bottom line is this, is that, again, this is not --

MARTIN: Well, in Los Angeles, we`ve tackled gun violence.


CEVALLOS: They are dead, absolutely. They`re very -- absolutely.

MARTIN: No, it`s not about being dead and gone, but it`s about addressing them and finding some solutions that work.


CEVALLOS: Nothing`s happened. And, by the way, you can put up -- you can put up photographs of all the mass shooters, and I have to say something that is very sobering fact and it pains me to say it -- mass shootings constitute a fraction, and I mean a fraction of overall gun violence.

WRIGHT: Thank you, Danny.

CEVALLOS: But yet we wring our hands and want to talk about the mentally ill. But the reality is, it`s unlicensed firearms. It`s regular citizens who are carrying illegal firearms in the neighborhoods across our country.

WRIGHT: Chicago.

CEVALLOS: If you want to dispatch an Apache helicopter and a Bradley fighting vehicle, don`t necessarily focus primarily on the mentally ill. The first priority has --


PINSKY: Ben, now listen. I know you`re a little defensive about gun issues. But you were nodding your head that people with mental health might not be connected with reality, the potential of disconnect maybe shouldn`t be handling firearms. Yes, the majority of firearm problems or murders or injuries are not mass killings, but in every mass killing that I`ve reported on since I`ve been at this station, it`s been a mental health issue that could have been easily detected.

FERGUSON: Well, and it could have been detected. In this case, it was detected. Look at what the military knew. They knew that this guy had taken a gun and shot out the tires of someone, and somehow he wasn`t charged. Not only that, after looking at that evidence -- that`s psychotic to me, that`s crazy. And then he claims he blacked out.

Well, does a person who shoots tires and then claims he doesn`t remember doing it, do they have any business having security clearance with our military in any form or fashion? Can we not do any better than that? That`s the first thing I would say.

The other thing here is, these guys usually enact with law enforcement in a negative way. So you don`t have to worry about the confidentiality if going to somebody --


WRIGHT: In Rhode Island -- wait a minute. In Rhode Island, we know that when the police came to the third hotel that Aaron Alexis checked into, the third Marriott in Rhode Island, they said that they, they contacted the Navy police. And they gave them their police report and said hey, this dude is a Navy reservist, saying that he had.

FERGUSON: This guy`s crazy.

WRIGHT: He`s hearing voices in his head through a microwave, you guys might want to do something about it.

What do they do? Again, back to what just said, you know, they give him a security clearance. He gets a security clearance.

But one real quick thing. The Aurora guy, James Holmes, as well as Adam Lanza, were -- James Holmes had contact with the university health care system --


WRIGHT: -- and they had identified him with psychiatric problems.

PINSKY: Psychiatric, yes.

WRIGHT: Why wasn`t that reported to the police?

Adam Lanza had an issue with his school. His school told the mom, I think your boy is off. You know, he`s got psychiatric issues.


PINSKY: I`ll tell you what my theory s I`ve got a theory on both of them. One is with the Aurora, Colorado shooter, there was a psychiatrist fighting hard to get him into a psych hospital. We`re going as that case unfolds, that the psychiatrist could not do her job, we`re going to hear that because he has rights, don`t you know.

In the case of the kid Lanza in Connecticut, he had a mom in denial and wouldn`t get the kid the right care.

Jenny, what`s your point?

HUTT: First of all I want to talk about moving forward. We`re looking at these tragedies. What is there to do, Dr. Drew? I think maybe somewhere between having zero privacy with mental health and having some privacy with mental is where we need to be, when it`s a dangerous mental health issue, that`s one thing. When it`s an anxiety, like you have, Dr. Drew, or I have, maybe that`s another thing. Right?


PINSKY: We`re talking about that.

WRIGHT: Anxiety? Come on.

HUTT: No, I think they can. I`m saying privacy close to everything. It protects everything.


Ben, they`re going to go down the slippery slope thing which I know all the gun guys. You haven`t even brought that up tonight. I`m proud of you. No slippery slope tonight for you.

FERGUSON: Here`s the core issue, though, that I think that we have to look at if we`re going to fix this, OK? There is the possibility of the "we go too far". Part of this, though, is the big mute button, and I don`t know if it`s a turf war. I don`t know how you describe it.

But it`s the same thing we saw before 9/11, when the CIA didn`t talk to the FBI, and the FBI wasn`t talking to the local police.

And so, no one knew what each other knew.

Somebody and I would challenge Barack Obama to step up on this and say, forget all the turf war. You`re going to -- you all are going to talk to each other and the local police are going to talk to the feds, and the feds are going to talk to the local police.

The same thing we saw with the disconnect in Boston bombing. Let`s not forget that one either.

WRIGHT: Good luck with that, Ben.

FERGUSON: People know stuff and they don`t talk.

PINSKY: Everyone, we got to hold it. We got to hold it here. We`ve got all have a lot to say. This is a topic we will continue to chew on, I have no doubt for a time to come. Well done.

I`m next going to get into the mental health issue so my viewers can see exactly what we`re talking about here, what a psychotic illness is. We heard that he heard voices come willing through the wall, he was wearing vibrations. They`re typical delusional psychotic symptoms and hallucinations. The behavior bureau will ring on all of this.

And later, we have a former friend and co-worker of the shooter who will join me. He says Alexis had stress or money problems. Those things, and certainly the 9/11 issue didn`t make things better, but didn`t cause this though.

Back after this.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Alexis told police that three individuals talking to him through a wall were sent to, quote, "harass him." He told police the harassers were using a microwave machine to send vibrations through the ceiling, penetrating his body so he could not speak.

UNIDENTIFEID FEMALE: He also told police that he never felt anything like this and felt these individuals would harm him.


PINSKY: Time for the behavior bureau. My co-host Jenny Hutt.

And we`re learning more about Aaron Alexis, the gunman who killed 12 people in the shooting rampage at the D.C. Navy Yard.

Joining us on the panel, Samantha Schacher, host of "Pop Trigger" on Young Turks network, psychologist Judy Ho, psychologist Wendy Walsh, author of "The 30-Day Love Detox", and criminal investigator Danine Manette, author of "Ultimate Betrayal".

Now, Wendy, I`m going to go out to you first. His father has said that he was there on 9/11 and that he`s implied that there might be some PTSD from 9/11.

And the news media has grabbed onto this, Wendy, as, oh, this is all PTSD. I`ve heard nothing about PTSD symptoms, all I`ve heard is psychotic symptoms. And let`s be clear, they can be made worse by having seen something like 9/11, but they don`t cause psychosis. Do you agree?

WENDY WALSH, PYSCHOLOGIST: Exactly. I think he had an organic condition, and I think that post-traumatic stress disorder, if he did have it from his 9/11 rescue attempts, probably exacerbated some of his symptomology.

And I think that -- you know, this reminds me so much, Dr. Drew, of the Arizona shooter, Gabby Giffords` shooter when he had these paranoid episodes. There was some videotape we had played and he was imagining and hallucinating and having delusions early on. This sounds like a major psychotic illness.

PINSKY: Yes. This is a psychotic illness. We should feel -- listen, that last segment, you guys hear us, Danine, talking about, you know, alerting law enforcement, alerting people when somebody has a psychotic illness, because we should be taking care of them. They lose their insight when they`re in that condition. Why can`t we use our judgment and our instincts to help these people and restrict their civil liberties so they, this guy is dead because of his mental illness.

DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: Dr. Drew, can I ask you a quick question? How long before this happened did he first go in and start talking about having heard these voices? Because from what I understand, it doesn`t seem like it was not that long in advance, do you know?

PINSKY: Well, no. He clearly had a paranoid episode in 2004 I think it was, where he was staring out his window at construction workers for days, clearly having paranoid delusions about them, and went out unprovoked and shot a car up, thinking that these people were beaming thoughts into his head, sending microwaves into his body, whatever it is -- this is how hallucinations work, this is what psychotic illness is.

Judy, a month before he hears voices, he thinks people are after him. You agree, do you not, clearly psychotic.

JUDY HU, PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, Dr. Drew, he was clearly psychotic, and he was seeking treatment, right? In August, he was at the veterans` administration. And they evaluated him and said he was OK, that he wasn`t unsafe, otherwise they would have revoked his privileges to access the Navy Yard.


PINSKY: Well, but, Judy, let me interrupt you.

I`m going to say we don`t know really what kind of services he sought, whether or not he really sought sophisticated mental health services, or if he just went in and said, hey, I can`t sleep, I need some help. We don`t know what that is yet. We should know.

WALSH: Dr. Drew --

PINSKY: People can learn from it if we get that information out there.

Who`s talking to me, Sam?

WALSH: It`s Wendy.


WALSH: We need to talk about guns for a minute, OK, and how we can keep guns out of the hands of these dangerous people who really need our help and care.

PINSKY: Yes. Yes.

WALSH: Is it possible that when somebody goes in for mental health treatment, the first question they ask is do you own a gun.

HUTT: Right.


WALSH: And we find ways to get guns out of the hands of mentally ill people who already have them.



PINSKY: Samantha?

SCHACHER: Our system has failed us because -- yes, am I do -- I have to hold or are you letting -- am I allowed to talk?

PINSKY: You talk.


All right. Listen, our system has failed us, because here`s the thing -- you`re right, Wendy. Here`s somebody with severe mental illness, and then you hook at his prior charges that was brought against him with unlawfully using gun, coupled with the fact that he had eight cases --

WALSH: I`m sorry, if you shoot up a car, you`re not able to have a gun any more.


SCHACHER: How is this person able to purchase a gun? We need further --

PINSKY: Not just purchase a gun, Sam.

SCHACHER: We need --

PINSKY: The background checks and also get clearance through the Navy.

Danine, I see you waving at me. You can answer my question as well, or whatever comment you want to make. Go ahead.

MANETTE: You know what, Dr. Drew, I`m going to say something that`s probably not going to win me any points around here.

PINSKY: Hold on a second. Danine, really? You`re going to say something controversial? Go ahead, though.

MANETTE: I`m sorry. You know, there`s a difference between someone who goes into a room full of innocent citizens, children, defenseless people who aren`t expecting and opens fire and someone who goes into a military institution where people have guns and are trained to fight. My son in the military tells me all the time, Mom, I`m fine.

I`ve been trained to kill with my bare hands. Someone who goes into that type of a situation and opens fire on these people has an agenda of vendetta. They have a personal grievance. They`re going towards a place of authority for them to go into this military institution and opened fire on --


MANETTE: Now, I understand that there may be an element of mental illness, but I know that if I was going to kill somebody a month in advance, I would go out and say that I heard voices. I`m sorry. I would plan this out this way. I think he had anger management issues.


PINSKY: I appreciate --


PINSKY: Sam, I got to stop everybody, because I`ve got to go to break. I`m against the clock here. But I get what you`re saying. It`s worth us looking at the arc of his history. It looks like it goes back many years, though. That he`s been intermittently getting --


PINSKY: He really is psychotic, because he`s delusional and misinterprets things, gets paranoid. People mistake what he`s doing. We`ll find out more. I`ve got the gunman`s friend who`s going to tell us whether he believed he was ever capable of this.

And later, Baby Elaina, the missing toddler found dead and hidden away in the rafters. We have her grandfather. He`s here. He`s got a lot to say about what happened to this poor child. Back after this.



MICHAEL RITROVATO, AARON ALEXIS` FRIEND: He played a lot of the online games where they were shooting all the time. And we would joke with him about that sometimes, because we were like, you know, his computer screen was like life like. It was big, it was like wow, you know, it`s like you`re shooting people a lot.


PINSKY: Back with the "behavior bureau." My co-host, Jenny Hutt. Jenny, I want to chat with you for one second. Pull Jenny and me up here for a second. First, I want to share with you a tweet. This is from Carol. These Twitter handles are amazing. @CarolFR40163199. She says "It`s not about the guns. We do not have enough resources for the mentally ill to receive the care that is needed."

And I will tell you that she`s got a point about that. It`s a very critical point. The other thing, Jenny, I inject a little levity into our conversation a minute ago, poking at Danine a little bit. People actually get critical when we so much as smile when we talk about these serious issues. And look, if we didn`t have a little bit of levity, a little bit of lightness to this, these stories are heavy. Give us a break here to be human beings with one another -- Jenny.

JENNY HUTT, ATTORNEY: Listen, Dr. Drew, if we couldn`t laugh and find levity somewhere, then we should all be in the fetal position under our covers and just never get out.

PINSKY: Yes, absolutely. OK. Now, let`s get the panel back. They`re back. Joining us by phone with -- to the panel, there`s everybody. Michael Ritrovato whom you just saw there in that little piece of tape. He`s the former friend and co-worker of Aaron Alexis. So, Michael, we`re wondering if you observed any weird behavior, and I`m hearing something for the first time that the restaurant where everyone knew him, he actually wasn`t an employee, he was a volunteer. Is that correct?

RITROVATO: Oh, no, sir. That`s incorrect. He was an employee, but he was really more of a, what they did is they put this man under their wing. He was a friend. He didn`t give us any reason to believe that he would be, you know, have some, you know that was very rageful or anything. But --

PINSKY: What do you mean?


PINSKY: He became an employee? I don`t understand what you mean by put him under their wing. Was he an employee or was he not an employee?

RITROVATO: Yes. He was employed by them. He was a delivery person here. And so, yes, if you`re asking me was he an employee of the Happy Bowl, yes, he was. But he was also more than that. He was more like a family member is what I`m trying to --

PINSKY: Got it. Got it. And I wonder if my panel has any questions from Michael. Michael was concerned, obviously, about the video games. I`m sure that doesn`t help problems. Trust me, I understand that.

HUTT: Come on, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: But what we`re seeing is somewhat intermittent thought problems. Go ahead, Jenny. You have a question for -- Wendy, you do. Wendy, go ahead.

WENDY WALSH, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGIST: I want to know what kind of stress he was under. I had seen reports saying that he had financial problems. His car had broken down. He really didn`t even have money for food, sometimes. Is this possible if you work in a restaurant to have no food?

PINSKY: Michael?

RITROVATO: Well, you know what, you can`t work in a restaurant and eat with the people that work here every day and not have food. That`s just impossible. Their food is one of the best in the area. But Ms. Wendy, I will respond to that question. He was a very loved individual here and he was very well taken care of.

When I said under their wing, I meant actually like a son, OK? I don`t understand the reason why he would go off like he did, but I can tell you that, yes. He complained about the same financial things that we all complain about. But, you know, we all have problems. But he`s been well taken care of, I can tell you that. He was my buddy. I know that about him.

PINSKY: By the way, Michael, if no one has said this to you, I`m so sorry. This is such a tragic case. People want to -- you know, he obviously -- he deserves our sympathy too. He was sick, in my opinion.


RITROVATO: We`re mad, I can tell you that. We`re mad because a lot of innocent people were affected by this. I was just watching the news when they said it was (INAUDIBLE) and it`s crazy when you think about that. That describes not only a lot of people but a lot of lives and a lot of families. And why Aaron would do that, I don`t understand. He wasn`t that way here. He was more --

PINSKY: But that`s --

RITROVATO: I would say you`re my brother of another mother, you know? And so, he was my friend. But, yes.

PINSKY: But that`s how we can know that this was not a personality problem. It was not some hidden agenda he had. He became ill and disconnected from reality. I wonder, if Judy, you agree with me on this? Do you have any questions for Michael?

JUDY HO, PH.D., DR.JUDYHO.COM: Absolutely agree, Dr. Drew. And hi, Michael. I was just wondering, aside from the video games, did you see anything else that was concerning to you that clues you in to the fact that he was getting sicker or that he was becoming more disturbed or that he was angry about something?

RITROVATO: Yes, ma`am. Let me back up just a minute, because I`m hearing a lot about this whole sickness thing on the last couple of hours. Before that, there was no sickness being mentioned other than, you know, that he might have had some medical issue, starting out, but you know, t he was never sick with me.

He was always strong. He was always a leader. He wanted -- he acted like he was kind of an arrogant New Yorker, and so am I, and in some ways, but he was more liberal and I mean more conservative, but we --

PINSKY: Michael.

RITROVATO: He was not a sick person.

PINSKY: If you -- if you, yourself, were suddenly to tell me that you were hearing voices, that microwaves were beaming thought into your body, that you believed that people were out to get you and sending thoughts into you that you couldn`t control, that is a sign that you have become ill. Just like if you got a fever.

RITROVATO: Sure, sure.


RITROVATO: -- door. Just a week ago, she talked to him a week ago and he sounded fine. So, the voices thing, I don`t know if this is all, you know, something that`s just come up. You know, maybe it`s true. Maybe -- said something like that. I don`t know why --

PINSKY: We would explain things. I hope that that`s what it is because if it`s not that, it`s something far, far more sinister. Danine certainly goes down that path. Yes, Danine, yes, you do.

MANETTE: And you know what, and I also want --


PINSKY: Danine, go ahead.

MANETTE: I also want to say, I do. I`m very sensitive to mental health issues. I`m not saying that I`m not. I know I come across that way sometimes. But I also know that people are very calculated. And this to me is more of a workplace violence. What do the kids call it? FML. He was mad about his life and about the things that were surrounding him.

This in Christopher Dorner to me are more workplace violence situations where they were mad --


MANETTE: And they were lashing out.

PINSKY: I have to interrupt, everybody. I`m really against the clock. Thank you, guys. Thank you, Michael, and, again, condolences on this entire tragedy, however, we come to understand it.

Next up, we are switching gears, talking about Baby Elaina, the missing toddler dead, stuck on a box, hidden in the rafters. What does her family believe happen? I`ve got her grandfather here.



PINSKY (voice-over): Missing Baby Elaina, tests confirm that a teeny skeleton found in a box hidden away in the rafters are the remains of this missing toddler.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Immature human skeletal remains.

PINSKY (on-camera): The 18-month-old toddler who disappeared from the home of her mother`s ex-boyfriend back in June.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Steven King told them, the authorities, exactly where to find that box.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: King maintains his innocence.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s guilty of not taking care of that baby like she should have.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: People are pointing fingers at me when they don`t even know what`s going on.

PINSKY: So much to this story. How did she die? Was her body moved?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What happened? And so, we`re not left with another situation we were with Caylee. We really never knew what happened.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. Also joining us, Wendy Walsh, Samantha Schacher, and now joining us, HLNs Lynn Berry. So, an interesting question, Lynn, is Baby Eleina another Caylee Anthony where we, the public, will never really know?

LYNN BERRY, HOST: Yes. And, you know, Steven King may be the one that can give those answers. We know that his trial was delayed. He was charged with obstruction of justice. The big question, will he be charged with anything else? They say those charges could be coming. And they -- there`s other evidence to look at.

And the big question is, did he tell them where to find the body because he`s implicating someone else or because he`s trying to get a lesser charge? We`ll have to see.

PINSKY: What do you think?

BERRY: You know, I honestly think that something terrible happened to that baby, an accident, and they`re trying to cover it up. And there are drugs involved. And there`s likely a lot of people that know what happened and they`re not talking.

PINSKY: Yes. There were a lot of adults --


PINSKY: Jenny --

HUTT: Dr. Drew, when there are drugs involved, is that really an accident?

PINSKY: I know, well, yes. Sam?

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, no. I agree. Whether this was an accident, whether this was her killing Elaina in cold blood, regardless, she still wasn`t protecting this child, and there needs to be justice brought for Baby Elaina.

PINSKY: Well -- OK. I`ve got somebody close to the action. Richard Schiewe is Baby Elaina`s grandfather. He`s the baby`s mom. Angela Steinfort (ph) is his stepdaughter. Richard, thank you for joining us. We`ve been watching you from afar. I do appreciate you joining the program. Can you help us understand? Could Angela have been involved with this? What happened here?

RICHARD SCHIEWE, BABY ELAINA`S GRANDFATHER: Angela did not hurt that baby. Like I`ve said all along, she was guilty, when she seen the blood and the black eye, she should have grabbed that baby and ran out the door. There were nine people in that house. What she told me you can caught (ph) on it. So, they told her go outside with the big kids.

If you don`t, you`re next. That`s when T.J. showed up, and the baby was missing, and T.J. called me. I got there and I asked Steven, then his cousin was asked, then they said he ran out the back door. That cadaver dog hit on a spot off by the back gate. On day two of that baby missing, I went to that garage.

After the police and I searched that garage, I went through the garage. That body was not in there. You got your murderer in jail. His name was Steven King.

PINSKY: OK. Richard, hold on a second. I want to come back and talk more with you. And the panel will be right back after this.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt, Lynn Berry, Wendy Walsh, Samantha Schacher. We are talking to Baby Elaina`s grandfather, Richard Schiewe. I want to give my panel a chance to ask Richard some questions. Sam, I wonder if you have a question for Richard?

SCHACHER: Yes, I do, Richard. First of all, I`m so sorry and my condolences. My question to you is, you stated earlier that you had went through the garage and you did not find the remains then. So, who do you believe, or rather, do you believe that other people were helping Steven King by placing the remains back in the garage after the searches took place?

SCHIEWE: Yes. One day when he was in court, he wanted to talk to his mother. And I believe his sister. And he told them, and then they took him over to the police station, and he told the police that the body was up in the rafters. And that body -- and I told the police. The second day that baby come up missing, I went through that garage.

I was in the rafters. T.J.`s brother, I don`t know how long after me was in that garage. That body was not up in there, wrapped up in a blue tarp, a yellow tarp. I don`t care what it was wrapped in, that body was not there. Somebody`s mother, cousin or somebody.

BERRY: Somebody, you don`t know who, but we know your stepdaughter was no doubt guilty of not caring for this little baby in the way she should have.

PINSKY: Not proper.

BERRY: Mainly, where this baby was living. Dog feces on the ground. It was a disgusting -- did you ever walk into that house? Did you ever walk into that house and say to Angela, what are you thinking? This is a little baby.

SCHIEWE: I did not know the house was like that until after Elaina came up missing. I did not know that. If I knew that, she would never have went over to that house with my grandbabies.

PINSKY: Jenny.

HUTT: Did you know if there was a history of domestic abuse with Steven King with Angela?

SCHIEWE: Not with Steven King, but with her husband. There was a history of domestic violence. I didn`t know of anything with Steven King, no.

PINSKY: Wendy? So sad.

WALSH: Dr. Drew, so, whenever I hear these stories about women who put their romantic needs ahead of the protection of their children, I always -- you know, red flags go up, anxious attachment disorder, and then I always wonder about what happened in early life. So, my question is, what kind of attachment did she have -- did Angela have with her own parents when she was young?

PINSKY: And Richard, I`m up against the clock. I`ve got about 30 seconds.

SCHIEWE: I took Angela away from her mother when she was three months old, and I raised her when she was from three months old, and I took her sister away from her mother when she was five days old. I raised them both by myself.

WALSH: Why? What was wrong with her mother? Why?

SCHIEWE: She had no contact. Her mother was a crackhead.

WALSH: Oh, wow.

PINSKY: Got it. So, Wendy, there`s what you`re talking about. The ambivalent anxious attachment. And then we get some of these problems. Richard, thank you so much for joining us. Again, our condolences --

SCHIEWE: Angela was not on any drugs.

PINSKY: No, we understand. We understand that. Apparently, there appears to have been allegedly drugs in that house.

Thank you, Richard. Thank you panel. "Last Call`s" next.


PINSKY: Time for the "Last Call" and it goes to my co-host tonight, Jenny Hutt.

HUTT: Listen, Dr. Drew, I just think people need to step up when they see someone who seems off and not right. They need to have the difficult conversations and figure it out and try to help seek help.

PINSKY: Yes. Don`t be in denial. If your instincts tell you something was wrong, report it. Tell somebody. An authority. They can help. It`s, again, to protect us and protect that person. Thank you, Jenny. Thank you all for watching. "HLN After Dark" starts right now.