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PIERS MORGAN LIVE
Americans Among Kenya Terrorists; New Video of Terror Attack; Interview with Meghan McCain
Aired September 23, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PIERS MORGAN, HOST, PIERS MORGAN LIVE: This is PIERS MORGAN LIVE. Welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world. Tonight, breaking news on the brutal terror attack in Kenya. The foreign minister there tells PBS, two or three Americans were among the attackers, and a stunning new video. Women and children hiding, dozens of shoppers cut down on a Saturday afternoon in the mall. 62 people dead, more than 175 wounded, hundreds running for their lives, many remain unaccounted for.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He shot at my head. But luckily, it hit the wall behind me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He said you've been killing our kids so we're going to kill your children too.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Police inside Nairobi's Westgate Mall tonight, going floor by floor, looking for any remaining terrorist. Could it happen here?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because honestly, this is a target to me, right here. I'm a little nervous being here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: I'll talk to Nick Kristof about why -- what's happening in Africa might be related to Syria. Plus, Grand Ole Slugfest with Republicans battling it out of a possible government shut down, I told the next generation, Meghan McCain, why she calls her famous father a bad ass and what she thinks of the Republican posse.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MEGHAN MCCAIN, HOST, RAISING MCCAIN: There are people that really agree with me and people that think I'm the republican antichrist, so ...
(END VIDEO CLIP) MORGAN: Again, that was a big story tonight, the deadly terror attack in the shopping mall in Nairobi, Kenya. Joining me now, CNN, International Correspondent, Nima Elbagir. Nima, what is the latest in terms of whether this operation is still ongoing, how many terrorist do you think is still alive, and how many people we may think have actually died in reality here?
NIMA ELBAGIR, CNN, INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the latest from the Kenyan Authority is that they believe this is the end-game. But this is an end-game that's been going on for quite some time now. It's about three or four hours since the Kenyan Authorities announced that they were in the final stages of their major assault.
They have said that they've cleared out almost all of the hostages that they don't really want to give definitive figures. As I said, three of the hostage-takers have now passed away. We were given a figure of 10 to 15 initial hostage-takers. So we're going to speculate that there are about 10 remaining in there with the hostages.
They say they've cleared most of the area and they've (inaudible) the areas in which the hostage-takers are locked down in. But of course, this is still a very, very delicate painstaking operation that when dealing with people who have continuously asserted that they are happy to die, they want to die, and the only reason that some of these hostages are still alive is because it's prolonging the attention that they are getting. The death toll has been incredibly (calm), to pin down. It went up and then down a little. It's currently at around 62, but we're hearing from eyewitnesses who evacuated quite late that there are still bodies piled up in there, unaccounted for.
Kenyan Red Cross has said there are about 65 people still missing, not in the mortuaries nor in the hospitals, and we've been seeing people waiting here, keeping visual (inaudible) the last few days, hoping against hope that the love ones that they can't find perhaps they are still in there tonight, Piers.
MORGAN: And the Washington Post's reporting tonight that maybe as many as two or three of the terrorists here may be American. What do we know about that?
ELBAGIR: Well, the Kenyan Foreign Minister told Connect the World, Becky Anderson, on CNN that not only did she believe that there were Americans but there were also Brits, there were other Western European nationalities in there as well, that Al Shabaab has been quite boastfully claiming since the beginning of this attack that there were three Americans in there, one Canadian, a Finnish person, and a Brit.
So, this is something that they clearly have been quite proud of because they feel that this shows the reach that they have been able to achieve. What has been interesting is the way that the Kenyan Authorities have, from the beginning, characterized as not only as a campaign and operation that's involved multiple nationalities, but that they believe that this isn't just Al Shabaab. Al Shabaab of course is an Al Qaeda affiliate but they think that this goes beyond just the Al Qaeda affiliation. They believe that Al Qaeda are involved in the coordination. In fact, the Kenyan Foreign Minister is saying this is global terrorist. This is a global terror network we're fighting here.
She believes that Al Shabaab are the main force behind it, certainly. I mean this is already going on longer than the Mumbai attack, that this is far beyond the capacity that any of us could have believed that Al Shabaab were capable of on their own, Piers.
MORGAN: Nima Elbagir, thank you very much indeed. Now, I want to bring in Judy Wangari. She came from Kenya to study in the United States. Her brother, Moses, works at the Westgate Mall. He survived the attack, locking himself in a control room for six hours. Thank you so much for joining me, Judy Wangari. Tell me, first of all, how is your brother?
JUDY WANGARI: He is well and he is safe and fine. He is little shaking out, but he is fine and safe.
MORGAN: Yes, it's a huge relief for you and everyone, obviously, that knows him. Moses works at the Westgate Mall as a computer specialist in the mall security office. What did he do when this attack started?
WANGARI: He works as a computer engineer, that is the work he does and he's designated as a computer engineer in the mall, and he works with cameras that - with the security cameras.
MORGAN: So, he would've seen everything as it was happening in real-time, which must have been absolutely terrifying for him. What does he told you about the incident he saw from what he saw?
WANGARI: One of the things he said is he was pretty terrified because he has never seen anybody shoot anyone apart from TV, in a movie. And one of the few things he said, it was really, really frightening for him just to see somebody just shot another person, and a person actually dies. That was -- that really shook him off.
MORGAN: And did he seem to be completely indiscriminate because there was a suggestion that they were only targeting non-Muslims, but from what your brother saw, it seem like they were killing almost anybody they found?
WANGARI: There was a -- the Muslim at one point were told they could leave, and they shot everybody else. I think they didn't want to shoot Muslims. They were just targeting everybody else.
MORGAN: Judy, thank you so much for joining. I really appreciate it.
WANGARI: OK. Thank you.
MORGAN: On a statutory count, Al Shabaab claims that three of the terrorists who attacked the mall were from this country. And PBS reports that Kenyan Foreign Minister says two or three Americans were indeed among the attackers. This is unconfirmed yet. U.S. Law Enforcement Official tells CNN that they can't confirm it, the investigation is ongoing. Joining me now, (inaudible) war on terror from the inside, Ali Soufan is a former FBI Special Agent, and the author of the Black Banners.
Ali, it's a terrible atrocity. It's ongoing. We don't know the full scale of this yet. We know over 60 people unaccounted for, and they may or may not emerge alive from this. But either way, one of the worst terror attacks of recent years, what do we know about the perpetrators?
ALI SOUFAN, AUTHOR, THE BLACK BANNERS: Well, Al Shabaab movement started as a nationalistic movement. And their main focus was in Somalia. They never conducted attacks until 2010 outside Somalia. The first attack outside Somalia was, actually the attack in Uganda in July 13, I believe, 2010, on the eve of the World Cup.
But recently, after the African Union participated in a peacekeeping mission inside Somalia, Al Shabaab has been defeated from Mogadishu and from other main cities, include the Port City of Kismayo, and they lost wide territory. They lost significantly in many areas of Somalia. They lost even among the population, the support that they once had with the population.
A Jihadi faction that already sought alliance to Al Qaeda and to Ayman al-Zawahiri appears now to be in control of Al Shabaab movement. And that faction was already in the, you know, claiming that they are part of Al Qaeda now ...
MORGAN: I mean we know there was a warning recently from Al Zawahiri ...
SOUFAN: Ayman al-Zawahiri, yes.
MORGAN: Yeah, do we think that this may have been connected to that, are the acting at his direction?
SOUFAN: Well, I think there was a lot of interesting similarities between (inaudible) Ayman al-Zawahiri instructed Al Qaeda affiliates to do, and what they did, they said, "Attack Western target. This mall is considered a Western target. Try not to kill Muslims. Kill only infidels." That's exactly what they appear, that they are trying to do. And also, on the same time, he said, "Take hostages."
And if you look at the way they conducted this new modus operandi of the attack, it's aimed to create maximum impact and maximum exposure. And that's why they are prolonging the attack as much as they can, because the more the attack goes on, the more we're talking about it, and people are watching and they hope they will get more recruits and more fund raising.
MORGAN: And of course, we got the U.N. Generally Assembly here in New York, which is maximum publicity for them here with all the world leaders. In terms of the make up of this particular group of terrorist (account) of the operation, there is a suggestion, which is unconfirmed yet, but there may be two, maybe three, Americans amongst those ranks, plus a Brit, as other Europeans. If that turns out to be true, what does that tell us about Al Shabaab and also Al Qaeda now in terms of how far it spreads?
SOUFAN: I mean, this is very interesting. I mean, I'm not surprised that there's Americans involved with Al Shabaab. There is probably about 50 Americans that actually left the United States and went to join Al Shabaab in Somalia. Few of them died ...
MORGAN: And would they all be from Somalian origin, originally?
SOUFAN: It's a combination. There are few from Somalia origin, but there these people who actually even converted to Islam and went to Somalia to fight having this romantic vision about, you know, jihad, and about joining a rebel group, you know, anti establishment rebel group.
But also in the same time, Al-Shabaab is probably one of the only affiliate of al-Qaeda that was able to recruit people from the west and from the United States. Now, we have probably today about -- from the 50, we have probably about 25 but we have no idea where they are. You know, they are not dead. They are still in Somalia. And this is scary because if some of people -- some of these guys made it back to the United States, they might create some problems.
MORGAN: And what you're seeing is a creeping radicalization of the younger element here. And we saw in Boston with the bombings there ...
MORGAN: ... the Tsarnaev brothers, but seeing it again here, what is the link? I mean, is Al-Qaeda now just as kind of (inaudible) entity which many, many terror groups are now operating under?
SOUFAN: Right. Well, after 9/11, almost immediately after 9/11, Al-Qaeda switched its role from being an operational entity to being a motivational entity.
SOUFAN: So, we were focusing on Al-Qaeda central organization. We didn't' focused on the narrative. Al-Qaeda gave a lot of power for their affiliates today. And if you look at the narrative that only existed once in Afghanistan and Pakistan, now you see it in Boko Haram in Nigeria. You see it in Libya. You see it in (inaudible). You see it in Mali. You see it in South of Yemen. You see it in Pakistan. Just this weekend, Al-Qaeda affiliated groups killed more than a hundred people between Karachi and between blowing up the church in Karachi, between what's happening today in Syria, between killing -- conducting few terrorist attacks in Iraq against jihad targets. So, Al-Qaeda is basically gaining a lot of power and that narrative that we disregard it for a long time is becoming the fuel that's bringing Al-Qaeda back.
MORGAN: Ali Soufan, thank you very much indeed.
SOUFAN: Thank you, sir.
MORGAN: When we come back, terror in Kenya, crisis in Syria, is there a connection? And also New York Times columnist, Nick Kristof, plus what happened in here later seven days and counting the government shut down (inaudible) McCain, you know, about his daughter, Meghan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: I want to express personally my condolences to not only Vice-President (inaudible) who lost some family members in the attack, but to the Kenyan people we stand with them against these terrible operations that occurred.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: President Obama today reached -- reacting to the terror attacks in Kenya. He's in New York City right now preparing to address the UN General Assembly tomorrow morning. Kenya will surely be on that agenda as well as Syria. Is there a deeper connection between the two? Joining me now, New York Times columnist, Nicholas Kristof. So Nick, (inaudible) some kind of big picture context, what is the link between what we saw happened in Kenya, what you've seen happening in Syria, you just got back from Syria, is there a context in which all this comes together?
NICHOLAS KRISTOF, NEW YORK TIMES, COLUMNIST: You know, I do think that they're (inaudible) I mean, if you push me to make linkages, one can talk about a youth ball which tends to make countries very unstable, that every extra percentage of young man you have between age 15 and 24 increases by something like 8 percent, the risk of civil conflict that's certainly a problem in Somalia, it's a problem in Syria, lack of education, lack of employment opportunities, and there are jihadi elements in both countries. But, I mean, the most fundamental commonality is that the humanitarian disaster in Syria and now we have the humanitarian disaster of Al-Shabaab in Somalia extending into Kenya.
MORGAN: Al-Shabaab, I mean, does that really exist or is it Al- Qaeda just with a different name because it happens to be in Somalia.
KRISTOF: Oh no, Al-Shabaab is a real organization and more recently it is been tied up more with Al-Qaeda but it became -- I mean, we inadvertently help create it. In 2006, there was a Islamic Courts Movement in Somalia. It was a moderate Islamic movement but the Bush administration was terrified about the idea of Islamic in the name and we now know through WikiLeaks, twisted arms Ethiopians to invade Somalia and expel this Islamic Courts Movement. And that created this nationalist movement among Somalis who then gathered behind Al-Shabaab where this crazy jihadis and gave them a brief window of legitimacy which they then ran with and have been became extraordinary violent, incompetent. Aside from the terror, their -- the incompetence during a drought in 2011 led to more than a quarter million death.
MORGAN: Could this come now to America? I mean, that's the big fear isn't it? If two or three of the terrorists here were actually from America to start with, it doesn't take a big leap of imagination to think that even the publicity they've got from this outrage, they could trust something similar in an American shopping mall. Could that happen? What is America do about it?
KRISTOF: I think that it could indeed happen. There are lots of other terror organizations that would like to strike America but they don't have access. And Al-Shabaab has been able to recruit people particularly in Minnesota. They supposedly have been able to recruit about 20 people over the time. And now, fortunately, some of those have gone over to Somalia. Maybe they can come back, maybe not, but there are presumably some left and yeah, I think it's a really scary prospect.
MORGAN: Let's turn to Syria, you're just being out there. You ran on the border in one of the camps, what is the (inaudible) of the humanitarian crisis? Put aside for a moment over debate we've had in the last ...
MORGAN: ... few weeks about military action. But, what does (inaudible) on the ground?
KRISTOF: You know Piers, I got to say that when you're out there on the border talking to these kids, the face of a Syrian refugee today is a child's face, half of them are children. And when you hear American politicians talking about, oh, maybe this crisis had been resolved, because it become a (inaudible) agreement. I mean, you know, maybe the American politician's crisis have been resolved, not that humanitarian crisis. You're still getting people flee in the country, but every 15 seconds, 5,000 people being killed a month. We're - I think basically, on this trajectory, it is going to lead hundreds of thousands of people to be killed in Syria, the Jordanian monarchy if King Abdullah may well collapse and more (ph) warfare in Iraq and Lebanon, and it's going to be incredibly difficult effort to put Syria back together again.
MORGAN: I mean, another link that you could make between what happened in Kenya and the Syrian situation is of course Vladimir Putin race to the rescue of Assad has kept him in power for possibly in perpetuity. We don't know how it's going to play out. And one of those reasons many believe is self interest. He didn't want the rebels that may have some Al-Qaeda infiltrators getting their hands on nasty weapons. They could shift over to some of that (inaudible) and Chechnya (ph) and take on the Russians. I mean these things are a huge leap of faith in your mind are they?
KRISTOF: Yes. That's true. And indeed, the Jihadists in Syria, it is been -- for anybody who has being following Syria, it's been really sad to see the rise of the Jihadists. And recently, they even took this town of Assad's that all these journalists used to go, that was kind of the gateway to Northern Syria. And they did that I think because the West was not supporting the free Syrian Army Moderate Rebels, while you had Saudi and Qataris (ph) supporting the Jihadists, and were they're, you know, Syria's version of Al-Shabaab.
MORGAN: In terms of what can be done about Syria if Assad doesn't deliver as many suspect he want, should America still contemplate taking military action? You'd been quite steadfast in this so far.
KRISTOF: And I lose hand every time I...
KRISTOF: ... call to that. But I believe that, you know, we're on a trajectory. It's not a good option but I think it's a better option to attack Assad's Air force. He has a limited number of fixed wing aircrafts, using only six airstrips. We can degrade his ability to bomb civilians but look, whatever you think about that, even if you don't agree with me on that, we can push to create more humanitarian access in Syria so that aid workers can actually get access to those people being bombed, get them health care, get them food over to 7 million Syrians who need help.
And I also wonder about something we don't know a lot about but that is Cyber warfare. You know, we have the capability presumably to disrupt Assad's ability to run his government, to run his military, to mount those attacks using cyber intrusions. And I think this is something that should be done incredibly, carefully. But when you have hundreds of thousands' lives at stake, I'd be prepared top do that.
MORGAN: Next time with me, when I come back after break, I'll have couple of lawyers who've actually defended some of the Somalians who've been caught up in this kind of activity before and indeed been imprisoned, or you can take on that, and about the radicalization of the Somalians in Minneapolis in particular in America from what it all means going forth.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL MCCAUL, (R), TEXAS REPRESENTATIVE: We've had several successful cases with what the FBI recently within the last year picking up Al-Shabaab members in the United States who have actively tried to recruit and train in the United States and then send them overseas to Kenya and Somalia.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Texas Congressman Michael McCaul, tells Jake Tapper about Al-Shabaab connections in this country. Our breaking news again, Kenya's Foreign Minister tells PBS that two or three Americans are among the attackers. This is unconfirmed at this stage. Nick Kristof is back and Defense Attorney, Andrew Birrell, works into the Minnesota man convicted of recruiting young men to join Al Shabaab in Somalia and his co-counsel John Hopeman. Welcome to you both gentlemen. Let's start with you Andrew Birrell if I can. Tell me about the case you are involved in and what your reaction is to what has happened in Kenya as a result?
ANDREW BIRRELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, we were involved in representing a man who was accused of helping, convinced and transport young men from a mosque in Minneapolis to travel to Somalia ultimately to participate and attend in a training camp run by Al Shabaab in Southern Part of Somalia and the case was tried in federal district court here in Minneapolis and our client was found client was found guilty. A number of people who were recruited by the conspiracy made agreements to testify through the government.
So, in the case that was alleged, I believe there were 18 young men who were said who have been persuaded to go to Somalia to fight for Al Shabaab. The events in Kenya or of course uphauling (ph) and every upsetting and I looked at the information that was provided about the names of people who might be Americans and neither Mr. Hopeman nor I recognized any of the names.
MORGAN: But John Hopeman if I can come to you, in terms of the events in Kenya, does it entirely surprise you given what you learned about this whole operation during the case that you are acting in?
JOHN HOPEMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, no it doesn't. We learned in our case listening to the government's evidence that the group is extremely violent, had issued rocket propelled grenade launchers and AK47s to its members. We knew that they had attacked government offices in Puntland and in other parts of Somalia. We knew that they were responsible for suicide attacks. What surprised me was the extent of the violence against unarmed civilians at the mall in Nairobi.
MORGAN: And Nick Kristof, when you hear this, it clearly there it was and if you studied these cases that came up, you had all the warning signs you could possibly wish for. They have tragically now come to reality, as (ph) of Somalia into Kenya and of course as we discussed earlier, they could come here. These are people who have been living possibly two or three of them at least right in the heart of America. What does America do about this? How do you target the Somali connection in Minneapolis in particular?
KRISTOF: Well, I mean the solution -- you can't protect every mall, every public gathering. If people are willing to kill others with AK-47 you can't protected that end, what you can do is focus on intelligence gathering and I think the (inaudible) committee and then the law enforcement has already done that in Minneapolis and you have to work with the local Imams, the local mosques because they are the eyes and ears in that community, and they are a gas (ph) when there are local Somali Americans who joined Al-Shabaab, that embarrasses them as other Muslims who are being killed, and I think that they are our best hope to try to catch this people and prevent them from happening before it starts.
MORGAN: And the way to encourage that is not to demonize all Somalians, Somalis living in America but this is going to be one of the problems exactly result to 9/11 to be very careful how you handle the communities which are harboring perhaps without even knowing it some of this radicalize young terrorist.
KRISTOF: I mean there are obviously tenths of thousands of Somali Americans in Minneapolis and the overwhelming majority are bias law abiding people who think this is a point, they even did already announce these attacks. And, you know, these are not the enemy, these are people that work with who (ph) try to help stop the attacks.
MORGAN: And, Kristof, Andrew Birrell, and John Hopeman, thank you all very much indeed. When we come back, who's to blame for Michael Jackson's death Conrad Murray is behind bars. (Inaudible) be found liable too. I also talked to Murray's attorney, that's next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We, the jury in the (inaudible) action find the defendant Conrad Robert Murray guilty of the crime of involuntary manslaughter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: That was a guilty verdict (inaudible) to Conrad Murray's involuntary manslaughter trial in the death of Michael Jackson. Tomorrow, closing arguments begin in another case but it's the (inaudible) as death. Lawsuit against (inaudible) promote AEG, Jackson's mother and three children (inaudible) company is liable in his death because he said negligently hired Conrad Murray. AEG's lawyers are giving to Michael Jackson chose and controlled Dr. Murray. Joining me now is Conrad Murray's attorney Valerie Wass.
Valerie Wass, thank you for joining me. How do you think this is all going to unravel? Now, we're getting to the end of this trial, do you think that Conrad Murray maybe vindicated?
VALERIE WASS, ATTORNEY FOR CONRAD MURRAY: I think he'll be vindicated in some sense. I don't know that it's going to make a difference as far as his appeal goes because that's based on the trial record, but in terms of the court of public opinion, I certainly hope that he will be vindicated to some degree.
MORGAN: What have we learned new in this civil action that we maybe didn't hear in the criminal case that could change people's thinking?
WASS: Well, a lot of evidence that was excluded at the criminal trial came out in the civil trial such as evidence of Michael Jackson's dire financial situation. Evidence said it was decades use of opioids and the fact that he's received propofol infusions back in the 90s.
MORGAN: And what is the significance of all that for this particular trial?
WASS: For the civil trial, or for the criminal trial?
MORGAN: For the civil trial, what is the significance of that new material that was in this particular case?
WASS: Well, I certainly think that it points that Jackson is culpable for his own death or at least to a large degree.
MORGAN: Where were he ...
WASS: That it wasn't ...
MORGAN: Right, where do you as Conrad Murray's attorney? Where do you see his own culpability as being inarguable?
WASS: Well, I believe that he may have done some things that were viewed as negligent, but I do not believe that he is responsible for Michael's death -- for Michael Jackson's death in any way.
MORGAN: Because you think that Michael Jackson was 50 years old, him being taking these kinds of drugs for a very long time, and was quite persistent in making sure that he got them?
WASS: Exactly. Perhaps my client should have walked away when he encountered the situation that he was unaware of when he left his practice and became Jackson's physician. But in that case, Jackson would have gotten the drugs from someone else and my client tried to help him.
MORGAN: He's being, you know, pretty much a hated figure since he was convicted and he's about to come out of prison after serving two years of the four year sentence. How has he coped with going from, you know, I interviewed some of his patients and he was hugely popular with them, and his reputation up to this point had been impeccable. How was he dealing with the damaged to his reputation and the public hostility that comes when you are deemed culpable for the death of a legend like Michael Jackson?
WASS: It's very difficult. I mean he's very isolated right now, and being in jail has been probably the most difficult thing he's ever had to undergo in his life. He's looking forward to addressing a lot of these issues when he gets out and speaking the truth. But it is been very difficult for him to sit there and have to listen to everything all over again in the civil trial. And in this trial, he has no representation.
MORGAN: Does he wish he'd never got involved with Michael Jackson?
WASS: Well, I think that would be illogical conclusion, and Jackson was his friend, but he did not know the situation in which he found himself and he has stated many times that if he knew that Jackson was a drug addict, he never would have given up his practices to become Michael Jackson's personal physician.
MORGAN: (Inaudible) Wass, thank you very much indeed. I want to bring in now Tom Mesereau, he was Michael Jackson's attorney during his 2005 child molestation trial, and he recommended the attorney who was into the Jackson family in the wrongful death. So Tom Mesereau, Conrad Murray has been the fall guy on Michael Jackson's death and is about to come out after serving more than two years in prison.
But this thing his attorney, they clearly -- they feel, or he feels pretty aggrieved that he was not directly responsible that Michael Jackson was a grown man, 50 year old man, who for decades had taken drugs and was determined to do so while into the point that he died. What is your reaction to that?
TOM MESEREAU, ATTORNEY: Piers, Propofol is used every minute of the day in hospitals all over the world. You talk to any anesthesiologist who's skilled in using Propofol, they'll tell you it's a marvelous drug, it's a safe drug if used properly. The problem here is Conrad Murray wanted to make a lot of money, wanted to have a lot of fame, wanted to embark on the biggest comeback in entertainment history and he ordered as I understand that four gallons of propofol was giving it to Michael Jackson without the proper equipment, to monitor his heart rate, his heart, his circulation, he was absolutely derelict, he was negligent, he's lost his license I believe in three states or more.
And (inaudible) Michael Jackson because he was using a drug that is considered very safe when administered properly is ridiculous. He (inaudible) his responsibilities, he tried to cover up the crime, he never told the paramedics, he'd given him propofol, he never told the police, he went to UCLA Medical Center, didn't tell him he'd given propofol, he blames everybody but himself, he's the cause of his own problem in my opinion.
MORGAN: He's obviously not the guy who has been directly accused in (inaudible). And that is AEG, the company that was promoting Michael Jackson's talk. In terms of where this action itself just taking it in isolation, what do you expect the verdict to be from all that we've heard in terms of evidence?
MESEREAU: Well, I think there are two questions, Piers. One, did AEG a large sophisticated $8 billion corporation with the battery of sophisticated lawyers and consultants, did they assume the risk of Conrad Murray? Did the negligently hire him or supervise, or retain his services because they want to be part of this huge come back, the biggest in entertainment in history.
And there are some e-mails where they talked about, you know, they're putting pressure on him allegedly through payment of his salary which was $150,000 a month. They agreed to pay him. They send an agreement for him to sign where they agreed to provide all the medical equipment and the medical assistant to him. They now say "This was part of a negotiation that was never finalized."
There are also e-mails where they want to remind who's paying his salary. There's an e-mail where they say they investigated his background, they then turned around and said "They had not really investigated him." Why do they think they had to investigate him? And why do they even mention the term? I think in the end, AEG is going to be held responsible. If they are responsible then the question is what are the damages?
You know, I knew Michael Jackson. I took all over his criminal defense nine months before his trial started. The trial itself was five months. This is the only man I've ever met my lifetime who can get up on a given day and spur the moment, go anywhere in the world and make millions and millions of dollars. I think that the damage award (ph) could be close to a billion dollars if they find that AEG assumed these risks and assumed these responsibilities. And I think the plan is going to go win (ph).
MORGAN: Tell me (inaudible) Tom, you knew Michael Jackson very, very well. And he was a forceful character. He was also somebody that was well known for taking drugs for very long period of time. And as you keep saying he was 50 years old. He's not a kid anymore. In terms of his own personal responsibility for the circumstances leading up to his death, where does Michael Jackson's own accountability (ph) come into play?
MESEREAU: Well, look, there's been evidence that he obtained a lot of prescription drugs from pharmacies and physicians, there's been evidence that he use propofol, but he didn't die, Piers. You know, the people who were giving him these drugs and giving him propofol didn't kill him. As I understand it, it was used under safe circumstances by physicians who knew what they were doing. I think it was wrong. It's a not treatment for insomnia. I think the physician that gave it to him were derelict would nevertheless, it didn't take his life.
This guy, Conrad Murray was giving him propofol without equipment, without proper assistance, walked out of the room was on the phone. I mean, I think he caused his death. If you look backward and saying Michael Jackson was taking prescription drugs and propofol, he didn't die from it.
MORGAN: Tom Mesereau, (inaudible) to talk to you. Thank you very much indeed.
MESEREAU: Thank you, Piers.
MORGAN: Coming next live, father like daughter Maverick Meghan McCain takes on T Party and tells me why some Republicans thinks she's the anti crisis.
MCCAIN: (Inaudible) call the Republican and name only, about Republican almost daily.
MORGAN: Sure down (ph) is living on Capitol Hill tonight, Republican House and the Democratic Senate are battling again and risking a shutdown (ph) at the federal government in just a week this time over Republican effort to defund ObamaCare. Senator John McCain, outspoken as always, has agreed to his GOP colleagues. Daughter Meghan McCain, just as outspoken as her dad, she's a rising star who often clashes with her own party. She's also the host of a new talk show, it's called "Raising McCain" on Pivot TV. Meghan, welcome to you.
MCCAIN: Thank you. Thank you so much. MORGAN: What is it like being the daughter of John McCain because I love John McCain. If it's a fire brand. I mean ...
MCCAIN: Thank you. I love John McCain as well. It's -- I love my dad. I love my family. I think I'm so lucky and blessed and have this crazy life and my dad is -- he's the best dad ever. I know nobody likes this answer. People much prefer if you get this turbulent relationship but he's very supportive, we talk everyday, I don't know, I think he's such a bad ass. I still love my parents.
MORGAN: He certainly is the bad ass. Do you agree with him on most things political?
MCCAIN: I agree with him on probably 70 percent, maybe 75. Social issues, we really diverge. He's 77 years old. I'm almost 29. There's going to be obvious differences and our outlook on life but I agree with him in a lot and he really taught me to love politics. He taught me all about the American political process. I was on his first campaign as a 14-year old girl, his last campaign as a 22-year old, as an adult and I just have had so much experience in the American Primary -- Presidential Primary Process. But I don't know, it's just been amazing.
MORGAN: What do you make of the state of a GOP right now because once again we're now seeing the Party pretty divided that the Tea party wearing its head again challenging the status quo, I don't see how this makes the Republican Party more electable. It just looks to me like they can't make up their minds what they really want to me?
MCCAIN: Yes, it's very splintered. There's the obviously the Tea Party and more conservative side of the party then there's the more moderate too. I think we live in reality but, you know, I can call the republican a name only and a bad republican almost daily. So, there are people that really agree with me and people that think I'm the republican antichrist. So, (inaudible) who's watching take your choice.
MORGAN: How do you as a party do you think move to becoming in agreement and more electable?
MCCAIN: I have been thinking this for years that we have to start coming to terms with the trends that are changing in America, gay marriage has already won, I think it's completely a topic that we have won and that people are just going to have to deal with, but there's a lot of people in a Republican Party that really want to claim to the past (ph) and every time people say, "I am a bad republican and your father was too moderate." I challenge this people to tell me what's going to happen if we nominate someone like Rick Santorum, an extreme conservative on social issues. What exactly is going to happen because they think it would be a blood bath in the next election cycle? And the last two election cycles weren't blood bath but it wasn't good, you know.
MORGAN: Who do you see out these as potentially a candidate in 2016? MCCAIN: This is so tricky, I was actually at my dad's birthday party a few weeks ago in Phoenix having this conversation with his old campaign manager and a few other people that have been in his political circle for a while and they said (ph) point to Jeb Bush, but I still think the Bush name is pretty tainted and I think he is much more conservative than people really realize. I like Marco Rubio, I don't know right now ...
MORGAN: Chris Christie?
MCCAIN: I use to love Chris Christie; I'm kind of done with Chris Christie right now.
MCCAIN: You know ever since his speech of the convention, I don't know if you remember it was so -- you know, he just talk about himself the entire time and I think politicians obviously, there's at some level of self-promotion that you have to do but I would like the next leader of the Republican Party and the next nominee to maybe be a little more interested in helping the country than just their platform.
MORGAN: Now, in your show you do a sort of big issue every episode, one of them is feminism, (inaudible) Billy Ray Cyrus about his daughter Miley and her twerking wrecking bold sensation that's galvanize the world, are you a twerker, do you twerk?
MCCAIN: No, no one wants to see me twerk. I am almost ...
MORGAN: So, your dad's (inaudible) to twerking (inaudible).
MCCAIN: If he really wants to (inaudible) at all. No, I'm not a twerker.
MORGAN: Is Miley Cyrus, age 20 making this leap from Hannah Montana to sex kitten on stage, is that good feminism? Is it somebody just using them with their feminist (inaudible) to challenge people?
MCCAIN: I ask this question, can you -- you know, I'm a woman who has done interviews in Playboy, I like dressing provocatively, I like attention from men from time to time, can I do all these things to be feminist just that question have been controversial, I think Miley Cyrus is young and she is learning about her sexuality, I have no problem with anything she has done and I think the criticism on her is a lot of it is unwarranted to be a woman in American is to be controversial especially if you are a pop star.
MORGAN: Absolutely right. Well, said Meghan, let's watch a little clip from ...
MCCAIN: I'm not big on judging women either. I've been judged so harshly, had so much attacks, let Miley Cyrus be 20.
MORGAN: And you know what's interesting to me is that someone (inaudible) vocal critiques have (ph) being people like Cher, why would you do the -- Britney Spears came out and said, "I love what she's doing." But I think Cher regrets it, she's now back track from what she said, but I thought as a bit (inaudible) must say.
MCCAIN: I mean I just -- I don't understand why women attacking other women, I didn't find what she did offensive, I'm not a prude though, I mean really twerking Miley Cyrus in a bikini on stage is really not, it's going to rock my world everyday, you know.
MORGAN: But you have confessed of course in your show to sexting.
MCCAIN: Yes and that -- this will follow me forever we did, the first episode is on privacy and we were talking about things we may or may not have done, sexting. I had some boyfriends and travel a lot, I have sexted before. It was very uncomfortable to watch that episode with my father, I hope he doesn't know what sexting is.
MORGAN: Let's watch a little clip from "Raising McCain", (inaudible) me.
MCCAIN: Thank you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think mom can be a politician?
MCCAIN: I don't think mom could be a politician, I think our mother is the greatest politician's wife in the history of the free world. We have like a normal rock world childhood, that's like honestly.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible) stupid, women, chicken.
MCCAIN: But I do think my mom is a kind of feminist.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: See, I bet your mom and I think that whole phrase about behind every great man there's even greater woman is never been more accurate.
MCCAIN: Thank you.
MORGAN: (Inaudible). I think you are terrific family, thank you for coming in.
MCCAIN: Thank you so much for having me.
MORGAN: Meghan, "Raising McCain" is on Pivot TV every Saturday at 10 p.m.
MCCAIN: Also on iTunes.
MORGAN: And on iTunes.
MCCAIN: Thank you so much. MORGAN: Good to see you.
MCCAIN: You too.
MORGAN: We'll be right back.
MORGAN: Billy Ray Cyrus on the show last week singing his new song "Hope Is Just Ahead. Another (ph) comments online, we want to let you know the full version of that song is now on our website, cnn.com/piers. And this (ph) week, I'll talk with the 42nd president of the United States, Bill Clinton in amidst of a raging speculation about Hillary Clinton's plans, the former president (inaudible) interview, that's Wednesday. And on Thursday is the next generation of the Clinton dynasty, my interview with Chelsea Clinton. That's all for us tonight, AC 360 Later starts right now.