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Tortured to Death?

Aired September 24, 2013 - 21:00   ET



DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, bound, gagged and beaten to death. Disturbing details of the murder of Hannah Anderson`s mother and brother have just been released. I have an exclusive interview with her family.

Plus, new details in the case of the woman who microwave her baby.

And the behavior bureau takes on missing Baby Ayla. New evidence just being revealed.

Let`s get started.



PINSKY: Good evening, everybody.

My co-host is attorney and Sirius XM Radio host Jenny Hutt.

Coming up later in the show, you may have read something about me today, in the press. I`m going to share the something with you about my health. It`s a diagnosis that affects millions of people, particularly men. I`m going to talk about that later.

First, we now know how Hannah Anderson`s mother and brother died. And the details are, in fact, sickening. Hannah, of course, the teenager who was abducted by a family friend and later rescued up in Idaho. Take a look at this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sixteen-year-old Hannah Anderson recuperating from a hellish experience. Detectives say Hannah had no idea that her mother and brother were found in the ashes of the DiMaggio`s house.

HANNAH`S UNCLE: The deceptive traitor, James Lee DiMaggio, is a mass murderer, kidnapper, torturer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Chilling and graphic details about what happened to a mom and the brother of kidnap survivor Hannah Anderson.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tina was bashed in the head at least 12 times, in the back of the head, forehead, and also on the bridge of her nose. Several layers of duct tape around her neck, also around her mouth.

He was so badly burned and so badly unrecognizable, that they still can`t tell us what the cause of death is there.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is the case completely closed now?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s still more questions that people have.

HANNAH`S GREAT AUNT: I just got this feeling that it`s not as cut and dried as it seems. I just don`t feel at ease about it at all.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why did DiMaggio allow Hannah to survive?


PINSKY: CNN correspondent Stephanie Elam joins us by phone.

Stephanie, do you have any answer does those questions?

STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): If only I did, Dr. Drew. It`s really gruesome looking at these reports, looking at the pictures that were there, that it`s something you just wish you could never see.

But it is just really, really gruesome how badly she was beaten up. Her legs tied together. She was gagged. There`s some of the duct tape in her mouth as well.

And then the other thing that`s so, so sad -- this innocent boy, this 8- year-old boy, having him found so badly burned that they had to use DNA to say that it was actually him because they couldn`t recognize any of him at all. Just very, very gruesome.

And one other thing I want to mention, too, to you, Dr. Drew. As all of this has been coming out, obviously, there has been time for the Anderson family and also for Hannah`s grandparents, Tina`s parents, the Brauns, to digest this information. But then it comes back into the news and we read today that Hannah actually put a picture up on Instagram of her mother and her brother saying that she`s sorry this happened to them and that it was so horrible and that she`ll be thinking of them and #rip.

So, something coming out from Hannah to say that the rest of the family is dealing with this, too, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Thanks, Stephanie.

We are showing that picture. Let`s make a full screen of that if we can. The picture from Instagram. At the time we put it up, it had many hundreds of, 606 likes. I don`t know if it`s something you can like.

It`s kind of a peculiar message, Jenny. Sorry this happened to you. I guess she`s responding, Jenny, to the autopsy report. Which I have to tell you, I read the report very carefully, it is not something I frankly would want Hannah to be exposed to even.

JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: I am so angry about this whole thing, Dr. Drew. I`m angry that we don`t know why. I`m angry with all of it.

I don`t -- look, I want to know Hannah`s involvement. And as we`ve said all along, she`s a victim and only a victim. I want to know more. I think we all want to know more because it`s hard to wrap our minds around just the heinous level of this crime.

PINSKY: Absolutely.

Well, let`s get our panel. Let`s see what we can do with this.

Joining us: attorney Mark Eiglarsh from, attorney Lauren Lake, the judge of "Paternity Court". You can check your local listings for that program. HLN`s Lynn Berry, Brian Copeland, talk show host on KGO Radio in San Francisco.

HUTT: Have some water.

PINSKY: I shall.

Author of "Not a Genuine Black Man."

Thank you, Jenny. I`ll do that.

LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST: A classic mom.

PINSKY: Before we go on, I want to take another look, for the panel here, the findings of Hannah`s mother. It`s revealing. It`s not for the faint of heart -- 12 blunt force injuries to the head, lacerations on her extremities, broken arm, ankles bound by cable tie, multiple layers of duct tape around her mouth and neck.

And then, strangely, a cut -- I don`t understand this -- a cut to her neck that went down into the cartilage of the neck.


PINSKY: It`s horrifying.

Lauren, just this -- I mean, you know, for a while there -- you know, people are saying, wait, don`t rush to judgment on this guy. Just knowing that this is how this guy treated this woman.

And, by the way, all this was pre-fire. This all happened. She was killed before the fire.

What do we do with this, Lauren?

LAUREN LAKE, JUDGE, "PATERNITY COURT": I am so outraged. It`s like I`m almost speechless, because I do not understand this level of violence. And what I see as I look through these particular fact findings is that this was planned.

You`re trying to figure out, was it a rage? Did something happen? No, no, no.

When you`ve got the duct tape handy and the ties ready, you got a plan.


LAKE: And what the problem is, is it`s just what Jenny was saying. It`s baffling, and we cannot get the answers. And now, because of the composition, the decomposition of the body, we can`t tell the story. The stories won`t be able to be told, even from the bodies.

PINSKY: Brian, you seem to want to speak there, go ahead.

COPELAND: Well, I agree with Lauren in that there`s obviously just some incredibly rage here because of all the injuries to Hannah`s mother, it`s overkill. And you don`t go to those extremes to break her legs and to break her arm and hit her in the head 12 times without some real deep level of anger over something.

So the question is, what was the anger about?


PINSKY: And, Mark, there was evidence that she was fighting back. You`re going to hear about from our medical examiner a little later, but, Mark, go ahead.

MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: First of all, I didn`t get through all the injuries. I was reading and trying to picture what each one meant, I had enough. I immediately thought about Hannah who I`ve been concerned about from day one.

Now, all these things are out there. She`s going to read about her mother, but also about her brother who she had a very special bond with. And she`s going to read the same thing I did, that they couldn`t tell exactly the cause of death because his body was so burned. That`s out there.

And we already have evidence of her not necessarily grieving in a way that we would think is appropriate. I have extreme concerns about her, and I`m going to ask her relative when he comes on your show in a moment about whether she`s receiving the proper counseling.

PINSKY: Let`s get to him. He`s joining us exclusively. His name is Dave Braun. He is Hannah Anderson`s great-uncle.

So, Dave, what is your reaction to all this?

DAVE BRAUN, HANNAH ANDERSON`S UNCLE (via telephone): Well, Dr. Drew, it`s hard to even put it into words and describe, but I think everybody that has spoke already really sums up what our family thinks. This was a traitor, first and foremost, to everybody that knew him, supposed to be the best friend of the dad and all of our family members. Everybody just thought the world of him.

And the whole time, he was nothing but a premeditated, calculating, cunning predator that ultimately was probably planning a murder/suicide on the exact date that his father did the same thing.

PINSKY: Dave, hold on one second. One of my panelists has a question for you.

Lynn, you want to ring in here?

BERRY: Well, Dave, I think the takeaway from these autopsy reports is that they likely experienced some awful level of horror seeing their death before their eyes and the suffering and the pain.

And as a family member, how are you all coping with that reality?

BRAUN: Well, it`s extremely, extremely difficult. I talked to both my sisters in California today, because I`m in Tampa. And I wanted to get their reaction so I could kind of share that. And we`re just all speechless.

It -- and the autopsy shows one more act of horror this man has committed because Tina`s open to the whole world on very part of her. I read the whole thing. It`s just -- it`s awful. It`s one more stab at our family, if you will.

PINSKY: Mark, you said you wanted to ask Dave a question. Here`s your chance.

EIGLARSH: Yes, David, two questions. One, is Hannah getting any treatment? I`m very concerned about how she`s going to be reacting to all of this. And secondly, are there any lessons? I mean, at some point, do you look back and go, hey, everybody, if you just do X, then you can avoid this? Or is he just such a good traitor and such a good predator that these things are going to happen and there`s nothing you can do about it?

BRAUN: Well, first of all, Hannah is receiving some counseling. I understand that they have skipped some of the counseling, and it`s just her dad and her getting the counseling. I would love for my sister Sarah who was very close to Hannah all her entire life to be able to go to some counseling with her. I mean, I know my sister needs the counseling bad. And her and Hannah together I think would have been a good thing if that`s allowed to happen.

The other question, it`s just, you know, I asked everybody the same question. When we sat around and critiqued this the night before the funeral, the FBI had a -- like a round robin discussion and get everybody`s passion out there.

And I was the one that was just out in orbit with anger over how could this happen? Didn`t anybody get any vital signs of what was going on? This guy didn`t just -- he planned this for some time, it`s obvious. How come nobody saw this? And everybody just as strict as I am, the only one that may have seen some bad things was my sister Sarah who tried to tell Tina that there were certain things that she didn`t like him and she as uncomfortable with.

PINSKY: Like what?

BRAUN: And Tina just got mad at her mom for being a parenting counselor.

PINSKY: Can you say what those things were, Dave?

BRAUN: No. No. I didn`t really ask her.

PINSKY: OK. Brian, go ahead.

COPELAND: Well, my question is, you know, as if the tragedy wasn`t enough, the DiMaggio family add insult to injury by implying that Jim was perhaps Hannah`s father and requesting her DNA.

So, my question is, where does this stand? My understanding was the family was not going to comply.

BRAUN: I understand that -- no, the DNA already was taken. The father had to make sure this was his son, so there was DNA.

And, first of all, they didn`t -- this man didn`t come aboard and started befriending Brett, the father, until Tina was six months pregnant. So, first of all, she was already a baby in waiting before she even met the guy.

PINSKY: Dave, I want to tell you. I spoke to you once before, then you had a head of steam and you were angry. And I still feel the anger, but I also feel the anguish now.

I hope you`ve taken care of yourself. And our thoughts go out to the entire family, but I feel that the weight of the grief and the gravity of all this in your voice, and we`re here, I don`t know what we can do for you. But I`m sure everyone watching this is as outraged and as you say, as in orbit as you are. So, know you`ve got millions of thoughts going your direction.

BRAUN: Thank you, I appreciate that. And you`re exactly right. The last time we talked, I was a ball of fire, because I was responding to DiMaggio`s local sister.


BRAUN: She -- and I don`t think, I didn`t want to even talk about her, because the issue isn`t her. She isn`t worthy of any kind of conversation personally.

PINSKY: I get it, and I hear the anguish now. And so we will check in with you. And thank you for joining us.

I`ve got to switch gears. Panel stays with me. We`re going to bring in Dr. Bill Lloyd. He has been going over those autopsy reports. There he is and there they are.

And he`ll be weighing in on these findings. And later on we have new details in the case of the woman who microwaved her infant daughter. We will get into that and more after this.



DR. BILL LLOYD, PATHOLOGIST: We don`t know exactly how they died, and the amount of information coming through the filter of law enforcement as you now is very, very slow in these early stages.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Here are the reports we got overnight, these thick, thick packets here with all of the information they have. There was no soot in her lungs. The same thing with Ethan, which implies that they were probably already dead before this fire started.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host Jenny Hutt.

And we were discussing the autopsy results on Hannah Anderson`s mother and 8-year-old brother. They were murdered by Hannah`s kidnapper, Jim DiMaggio.

And I am, Jenny, you agree with me on this, if Hannah Anderson and her family are listening, I suggest they turn off the television.

HUTT: Yes.

PINSKY: It`s not OK to listen to this stuff. I hope we can rely on them to do that, and her uncle we just spoke to, I know I can rely on him to help send that message out.

Mark Eiglarsh, Lauren Lake, Lynn Berry, still with us.

Joining us now, pathologist, Dr. Bill Lloyd.

Dr. Lloyd, I read these results. The son, the little boy -- it`s ridiculous how much he was destroyed by the fire. I don`t think we need to get into details about that. The -- Hannah`s mom clearly head trauma was massive, do you agree?

LLOYD: Yes, Drew. And as they mentioned in that intro, that excerpt from a month ago, very little information was let out at the time the bodies were discovered. One of those pieces, though, was the crowbar.

And it was this crowbar that was used to strike the back of her head 12 times. That probably made her unconscious and spare her from the remaining suffering that went on.

There were some fractures to her right arm, probably defensive in nature in trying to fight off the attacker. Of course, we know she was bound and gagged as well. He was in such a hurry, he left the entire roll of duct tape still around Christina`s mouth and neck.

And then, on top of that, another violent injury, a knife slash, again, ear to ear. Where have we heard this before? Someone is trying to kill somebody three times. You crush their skull, you slit their neck and then you set a huge fire.

PINSKY: What does this make you -- my mind is spinning with this. I mean --

HUTT: Well, he`s saying Jodi Arias.

PINSKY: No, no, I understand Jodi Arias. What is motivating this guy to have that kind of -- I mean, Jodi, we talked at length about what was going on, and we sort of understood that there was something going on there.

BERRY: And, Dr. Drew, you make a really good point, because we don`t know the answer to that question, because the only thing we heard throughout this entire story was he was Uncle Jim. He went to pick up Hannah at cheerleading practice that day. And we can`t even tell people everything that`s in this autopsy report because it`s just too graphic for television.

The rage that this took was at a level that we can`t possibly comprehend.

PINSKY: Yes, literally, Dr. Lloyd, I think you`ll agree with me. He`s literally taped her up and then sort of for good measure like, out of extreme rage, right? Went at her neck.

LLOYD: Right, but there`s an enormous mystery here. Often times, once you get the autopsy report back, the pieces fit together. As much as you want to villainize the perpetrator, you get it, you figure out what happened.


LLOYD: No, not here. There`s way too many mysteries, involving Hannah, involving Jim, involving the father. Where`s the father all this time as well?

We know that Christina was with Ethan at football practice. And Jim, this is Saturday afternoon, Jim was supposed to be with Hannah, going to the cheerleader training camp. They got together Saturday night and sometime between 7:00 and let`s say 11:00, this all went down, because remember, the 20-hour timer.

PINSKY: And -- right.

BERRY: Well, it should be noted that the father was actually in Texas because they were separated, and he had a job there. So he wasn`t local to the area. And you wonder whether or not Jim sort of took on this male role in this family and Tina trusted him to that level.

PINSKY: Well, who knows? Lauren, is that you Lauren trying, or Jenny? Let me ask Lauren something. I understand this guy has now has a book deal and movie deal. It`s all very weird, right?

LLOYD: This is extraordinarily weird. There`s too many people giving press conferences.

PINSKY: Yes, I agree.

Jenny, go ahead.

HUTT: OK, I just wanted to say to Bill. Usually in these cases you find out a reason why. There would be no reason why it would be OK for him to have killed the child and the mother, Ethan and Tina. What could possibly be any --


PINSKY: The child saw something.

LLOYD: I`m thinking specifically to the comments of the aunt from the beginning of the broadcast where she said there`s still a very deep unsettling feeling here. We`re not talking grief, we`re talking mystery. There were pieces of the puzzle that don`t fit together yet.

PINSKY: Lauren, finish me up here.

LAKE: I have grief and an unsettling feeling about a book deal and a movie deal. That is ridiculous. That`s insulting. It`s disgusting.

PINSKY: All right. Mark, I`ve got to go. I`m sorry. I`ll get to you. We have much more to talk about, because next up, we`re learning new details about the woman who murdered the baby in the microwave, cooked the baby to death.

And later, behavior bureau, takes up the case of the missing baby Ayla. New evidence of being so cute, but this is just a sad story. New evidence revealed the little girl`s mother is going to apparently give the evidence, after this.



PINSKY: She put her baby in a microwave, turned it on and walked away.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is just absolutely revolting and it`s sickening. And it just -- it goes to the core of just evil to me. Absolutely evil.

PINSKY: Now, the attorney for convicted killer mom China Arnold wants a new trial.

BERRY: One trial, two trials, three trials, now you want a fourth trial?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But news flash. The Constitution applies to everybody, even people we hate.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They told me that it looked like somebody had cooked her.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This woman is coming up with every excuse now and not taking responsibility for what she did when she cooked her baby.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know why anybody would do that to her.

PINSKY: She was blackout drunk. She may not know who did it, and therefore is claiming innocent, even though she in fact did it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t think she`s so drunk she doesn`t remember.

HUTT: The point is, she took the baby in the microwave, and she pressed "on".

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I say she needs the death penalty.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt, Lauren Lake, Brian Copeland and joining us, psychotherapist, Eris Huemer and Wendy Walsh, psychologist and author of "The 30-Day Love Detox."

Now, our viewers had a tremendous reaction to the story last night. So, I want to throw up a tweet to begin with. It`s from @piercebboop. This person tweeted, "Right is right and wrong is wrong. She deserves no retrial. Death is her -- at her door is the only action needed."

Pretty intense. Wendy, what do you think?

WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: I think while this crime is certainly a travesty, we are civilized people. And we are not a lynch mob, Dr. Drew. You know where I`m going.

There will be no blood on my hands. I will not put this woman to death. Otherwise, I would be what she is.


PINSKY: But, listen, Brian, I have you next beat -- take at this, swipe at it. But Wendy`s against the death penalty generally. The attorney says there were people with mental illness cycling through the neighborhood, that the husband`s got some culpability here.

What do you say, Brian?

COPELAND: Well, no matter how angry we are, and how much we want somebody to pay for this crime, because it`s just so horrific, this is still America. And if there was reversible error in the trial that she just had, whether she just had three, four, or five, if they weren`t fair trials, there`s reversible error, she deserves a trial.

We need to make sure that she is guilty and that the punishment then is an appropriate punishment.

PINSKY: Jenny?

HUTT: She`s been found guilty two times already, A. B, if, in fact, she did it, then she can be sentenced to it. Frankly, barbaric and inhuman would be to microwave her.


HUTT: But I don`t know that I`d mind.

PINSKY: Microwave mom believes she`s innocent. I want you to look at this from last night.


JON PAUL RION, ATTORNEY (via telephone): The only way you can understand this is by the proposition that she did not do this.

And if you know China, years and years we spent with China. There were three qualities she had. She was considerate. She was compassionate. She was kind.

There were people that were angry that night. Her own, the father of the child had thrown her down earlier that night. He was clearly upset about things.


PINSKY: Brian, you`re doing jumping jacks. You got something to say here?

COPELAND: Oh, yes, because here`s the thing. You can say she was kind and compassionate and a wonderful, warm human being, but there are people who are just flat-out bad drunks, all right? She was blackout drunk, that doesn`t mean that she didn`t do it.

PINSKY: That`s right.

COPELAND: It could possibly she has to remember having done it. There are people who are the nicest people in the world, you get a couple cocktails in them and they`re completely different human beings.

PINSKY: And, Eris, I don`t want to do it at you, but I know you are --

ERIS HUEMER, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: I am seven months pregnant.

PINSKY: I see you stricken by this story.

HUEMER: This whole case, this case is making me crazy. I mean, we talk about a lot of horrific cases here at HLN, but this one takes the case.

First of all, this mother is asking for an appeal. This baby doesn`t get an appeal. This baby got the death penalty.

And so many things could have gone wrong here. And of course, as a mental health professional, I want to bring up postpartum depression, postpartum psychosis.


HUEMER: I think it`s all relevant and very important to talk about. And we can bring this up so that women aren`t scared to talk about not connecting to their child.

PINSKY: That`s right. And they should get help if they`re feeling that disconnect in whatever form it takes.

But, Lauren, I`m really anxious to get to you. I see you sitting there quietly but simmering. I can feel what`s going on. Go ahead. Let`s have it.

LAKE: I`m ill. I`m ill. First of all, I don`t believe she was that drunk.

Second of all, they have to come up with another reason, situation that makes any sense. Third of all, yes, sometimes my defense attorney hat squeezes my head too tight. I know if there was reversible error, I know she must have the new trial. She would be entitled.

But, Dr. Drew, put your baby in the microwave over some paternity issues when you can go down the street and get a test and figure them out?

PINSKY: And, Lauren, let me throw some more -- some gasoline on your fire a little bit.

LAKE: Oh no!

PINSKY: Let`s say she didn`t do it, but she was black-out drunk. There wasn`t adequate supervision of the baby. Would you hold her nonetheless accountable on some level?

LAKE: Of course she is still accountable on that level, but Dr. Drew, come on. Who else could do this? They have not come up with a decent alternative theory. And then she said, I killed my baby.


PINSKY: But they are pointing the finger at the husband, they are pointing on the neighbors.


PINSKY: I don`t think any of us do, but we got to leave it there. Next up, gruesome details being revealed in the case of another horrible - oh, this one just breaks my heart to be able to (inaudible) Baby Ayla, and later I want to share with you guys a personal message that I hope will be helpful for men out there particularly. Be right back.


PINSKY: Time for the `Behavior Bureau.` My co-host, Jenny Hutt`s still with me. Baby Ayla disappeared from her grandmother`s house two years ago. Police suspect foul play but no arrests of yet have been made amazingly. The baby`s mother is now talking about disturbing evidence that the police say they found that would clearly - clearly appears to be a crime scene. Take a look at this.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What did they show you in the basement?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does this new evidence prove Baby Ayla was murdered?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her father says he put her to bed, only to discover her missing the next morning when he called police. The father says, oh, he put the child to sleep at 8 o`clock that night and then approximately 12 hours later, oh, the child`s missing.

REYNOLDS: Everyone that was inside that house that night that knows what happened to Ayla. They`re making this a game.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say DiPietro, his sister Alicia and his girlfriend Courtney Roberts, who were all in the Waterville home the night Ayla disappears.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three other adults and nobody knows what happened to this little girl.

REYNOLDS FROM VIDEO CLIP: All three of them are lying.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This had to be foul play. The only question is, who did it?

REYNOLDS: She`s not OK, she`s not all right.


PINSKY: Back with us, Eris Huemer, Wendy Walsh. Joining us, Samantha Shacher, host of Pop Trigger on the Young Turks Network. Patti Wood joins us as well, behavior expert, author of "Snap, Making the Most of First Impressions". Samantha, three adults in the house. Nobody saw anything. Really?

SCHACHER: OK, first of all, Dr. Drew, there`s so much about this story - especially with this new evidence that has me scratching my head. Because first of all, if there was that much that blood evidence, OK, that the investigators are now claiming, that she is now claiming, coupled with the fact that there was also blood evidence supposedly in his car, and he drove --

PINSKY: Who`s he?

SCHACHER: -- two hours. The dad - Justin, Justin. And he drove two hours with that supposed blood evidence in the car before reporting her missing, leads me to believe that he drove to go dispose of the body. Now, really quickly, I think with all the evidence that they would have charged him and arrested him which makes me believe that maybe, maybe this was -- there isn`t that much evidence. Maybe this is - maybe I`ve been watching too much "CSI Miami" and maybe they staged it to somehow show - well, really quickly.

PINSKY: No, come one.

SCHACHER: Wait, wait, wait, wait. With all that evidence, I`m sorry, you would think that he would have been charged. So is there a possibility that they staged it, showed the pictures to her to elicit a response, and hopefully get a confession out of the dad out of fear?

PINSKY: Now, listen, the police showed the mom a slideshow of what appeared to be a crime scene. I want to show you here what - some evidence of what she saw and then, Patti, I`m going to have you react to what you`re seeing. Here we go.

REYNOLDS: Her blood was found on her left shoulder strap to her car seat in Justin`s truck. And the living room sofa that had a little bit of blood on it - that was Ayla`s. There was blood on Ayla`s baby doll.

PINSKY: All right, Patti - body language. You see anything?

PATTI WOOD, BEHAVIOR EXPERT: Actually in this interview near the beginning and other interview I analyzed to prepare for this evening, she actually gives a very revealing smile. It`s a smile that we showed in junior high when we knew a secret that other people didn`t know. So, the smile tells me that she knows even more than she`s able to say in these TV interviews.

PINSKY: Oh, that`s interesting.

WOOD: So, that`s interesting. That`s really fascinating. I want to know what she knows that she can`t tell us.

PINSKY: And, Wendy, she was in treatment for chemical dependency at the time - you make anything of that part?

WENDY WALSH, AUTHOR OF "THE 30-DAY LOVE DETOX" BOOK: Yes, in fact, you know, I have to take a little side train to remind you that I talked about this in my book "The 30-Day Love Detox" because of what it illustrates about our relationships in America. When we covered this story two years ago on "Nancy Grace", she said she had been in drug rehab at the time, and when Nancy said, well, your boyfriend or ex-boyfriend and she said, `oh, no, no. Justin wasn`t my boyfriend, he`s not my ex-husband, he`s not my ex-boyfriend, we were just friends.` So, clearly, friends who at least hooked up once and what does that say about who cares and who has a biological interest in Baby Ayla?

PINSKY: That may be some of also that coy smile. Eris, I`ll give you the last word here. Again, we`re looking at pictures of a beautiful baby. You are pregnant, this must just -

HUEMER: Oh, of course -

PINSKY: -- cut to the core.

HUEMER: -- it`s absolutely devastating and it does cut me to the core. But, Wendy, you bring up a lot of good points, and who was then responsible for giving this child to this man if the mother doesn`t have a relationship with the father, then why is she even allowing the baby to stay with him during rehab?

PINSKY: Now he who we were discussing -- Baby Ayla`s father - is due in court tomorrow. We will explain live - we`ll explain exactly why. And later on in the program, as I`ve said, I`ve got a personal message about some stuff you may have read out there in the cyber world or elsewhere. I want to explain and share it with you in just a few minutes.


REYNOLDS FROM VIDEO CLIP: Was there a party going on? Were there drugs there, did she get a hold of you know drugs or what not, and that`s what happened to her?

PINSKY: Back with the `Behavior Bureau` and my co-host, Jenny Hutt. We`re talking about Baby Ayla, the little girl who passed about two years ago. Wendy, the mom has a point there. When you`re around people that are using and drugs are involved, bad stuff happens.

WALSH: Right, and she`s mentioning of course this report that there was a lot of vomit involved as well too - that was told to her by the police. Again, we can`t verify it completely, but yes, drugs, adults and babies don`t mix. You got that everybody?

Females: Yes.

WALSH: That it`s not OK to be intoxicated around children. Everyone - I mean -

PINSKY: Wendy, Wendy, Wendy - Jenny, Wendy`s getting the whole head thing going on - I can`t do it but, Jenny, go ahead.

HUTT: (Inaudible) I think what Wendy`s point is is appropriate outrage. What are people doing drugs with small babies running around the house? Do drugs period. I mean -

PINSKY: This is not the first story we`ve reported like this.

HUTT: No, but -

PINSKY: The mom to my--

HUTT: -- heartbreaking. PINSKY: -- to my treatment eye, the mom looks sober right now. She looks like she`s really probably seriously in her recovery. So she may be looking with a quite a jaundiced prism at the other guys` behaviors in retrospect, and she probably - maybe that smile, Patti, is her knowing that maybe her disease figured into all this, you suspect?

WOOD: She has information that we don`t know. That smile is a very particular , distinct smile of knowing and I want to know what those details are.

PINSKY: I`m going to show you some tape of Ayla`s father - I`m going to get everyone`s reaction on the other side of this, take a look.

JUSTIN DIPIETRO, FATHER OF BABY AYLA FROM VIDEO CLIP: I don`t want for one second for my daughter to ever think that I wasn`t doing everything that I could to get her home. If there was something solid that I knew - I mean I would be sharing that - but again, you know, I cannot go out there and speculate and - which is what a lot of people have done. It`s not about me, it`s not about Trista, it`s not a he-said, she-said thing. It`s not about the public, you know. It`s not about the media. This is about Ayla.

PINSKY: Wendy, was that you? You couldn`t even hold it in.


PINSKY: Go ahead.

WALSH: He`s absolutely lying. The way he`s stuttering and stumbling, thinking for his next lie, that is classic lying. The way he`s sort of halfway repeating the question, giving him time to think up his next lie, and the thing he`s going to say, that is - so that`s reeking to me. An outright lie.

PINSKY: And, Patti, before you fly out of your chair, Patti, go ahead.

WOOD: Absolutely I agree, there`s also distinct deception detection clues in his content, the `I don`t, I won`t, I never` - all those negatives - that`s a liar distancing themselves from the perception of others. Distancing themselves from the crime.


SCHACHER: Why is this man out? I don`t understand with all this supposed blood evidence, with blood on his shoes, in his car, in the basement, why is he not charged and arrested? It`s infuriating.

PINSKY: Jenny, you got any insight for me? You`re the one with the legal training here, I don`t get it.

HUTT: Yes, I mean, well, I think, I think what Sam had said earlier - there may not be adequate evidence in order to bring him in. I mean, that`s really what it boils down to. But I have to say, just hearing him say something like `we want to bring her home - I don`t want her to think I didn`t try to bring her home` - I`m pretty convinced that he`s the one who got her out of the home, so I --

PINSKY: And this guy is due in court tomorrow as I said, on - Eris, your thoughts. He`s on a domestic violence charge. Shocking. Eris, go ahead.


HUEMER: So here he is. He`s going to be caught somehow. Something`s got to come out. This guy is not a good parent. You know you think that when a parent brings a child into this world that they can become attached to their child. That they can become a good enough parent. But as we`ve seen tonight, there`s a lot of cases for a plethora of reasons that sometimes a parent isn`t sufficient enough, and this guy is just horrific.

Unidentified female: Right

HUEMER: And obviously there`s evidence there with blood in his car and all over the house and on his baby`s baby doll face. I mean, I just - I don`t understand why he hasn`t gone to jail. And I want to know what the mother knows. I want to know what you`re seeing - like what does the mother know?

PINSKY: We don`t know. We don`t know. We will find out. We`ll keep watching this. There`s a lot of mystery here, both in terms of the law enforcement side, the legal side, and what mom might know that she`s not saying. Thank you, panel. Going to switch gears. I`m going to talk personally about something that has afflicted me for the last couple of years, you may be surprised to find out, I have cancer. Be right back after this.


PINSKY: So, as I said, I have cancer. I was diagnosed with prostate cancer like millions of men about two years ago. I had my prostate removed in July, and my executive producer just ran in here and said, "you don`t have cancer anymore?" Indeed, I`m a cancer patient because of some very, very thoughtful work on part of my medical team, I am probably cancer free and probably look forward to a normal life expectancy without cancer.

This all started a couple of years ago. My wife Susan made me go to a physician to get a physical, get a PSA, this something all you men over 50 should be discussing with your doctor, whether you should be getting a PSA or not, and how to interpret it. My interpretation led to a normal PSA, by the way, ultimately having a prostate biopsy done because of my doctor`s intuition and instinct. The biopsy showed cancer. I went on an active surveillance program.

That is really why I feel it`s so important to talk about this, because it`s very common for men, it`s highly treatable and then if a man lives long enough, the odds are he`s going to get this cancer. The treatments are different at different ages and at different grades of tumor. It is something that you should be working with your doctor on, and don`t freak out if you get this diagnosis. I waited two years. I was in the active surveillance program, and finally had the prostate out about two, three months ago and I`m doing great now. Joining me, I brought some of my friends and family around who have been with me throughout this. Many have been aware of it. Jenny Hutt, Samantha Schacher, Wendy Walsh, Mark Eiglarsh. And first of all I appreciate all of your guys` support. Not just for me, but for this program, and giving you guys a chance to ask me questions about what I`ve been through. So, thank you, Jenny, you have a question?

HUTT: Do I - I just want to know how scared you were initially.

PINSKY: You know, I will be on "New Day" tomorrow morning on CNN - I`ll be on "Dr. Oz" show after that, talking about what that was like. You feel alone. It`s a sinking, sinking feeling. But I`m a physician, so I kind of knew what it meant. I could just imagine how horrible it must feel for the average person when you get that `c` word, you freak out. You want it done, you want it out right away. But for men, this is -- the surgery is no fun. It is a big deal, and you want to time that right. There are certain risks and you don`t want to put yourself in front of those risks unless there`s a really good reason for it. Sam.

SCHACHER: Yes, a follow-up to Jenny`s question - I was blown away, Dr. Drew, by your positivity before the surgery, by your resiliency and more positivity after the surgery, so what was your motivation to remain positive, and what advice could you give others battling cancer right now?

PINSKY: Yes, I thank God that I was a physician and I knew the facts. I knew that it was appropriate to be waiting, and that 30% of the time it gets better, 30% of the time it stays the same, and 30% of the time it gets worse. Mine got worse over a couple of years, and I was completely prepared for the surgery when the time come - came. I know this surgery, it`s a robotic surgery now. It is highly perfected. You go home the next day. It beats the tar out of you - don`t get it wrong, it`s a big deal - but I knew what I was getting into, and I was grateful. Listen, you guys, I know what can happen to the human being. I`m grateful for what I got as opposed to what could potentially happen. Wendy, you got a question?

WALSH: Yes, Dr. Drew, first of all I want to tell you we all love you very much. If there`s anybody living on mars who doesn`t know, you`re one of the kindest, --


WALSH: -- most compassionate men on the planet. I don`t know why you`re on TV, you`re not crazy. Anyway --

HUTT: Wow.

WALSH: -- I do what to ask - oh, the rest of us are, by the way - I do want to ask you about the genetic potential. You have two sons.


WALSH: Is this possibly genetic?

PINSKY: Oh, absolutely. My father had prostate -

WALSH: Do you worry for them?

PINSKY: Yes. My father had prostate cancer, my uncle had prostate cancer, and it`s really with that context that caused my doctors to look a little more closely at what was happening to me and really brought the diagnosis up in time to catch this thing before it meant something devastating. Mark, you and I shared a moment in the car on the way to dinner with Jenny, in fact, in New York about this condition. I will not forget your support when I told you about this.

MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY WITH SPEAKTOMARK.COM: First of all, thank you for sharing it with me. You were consoling me - I knew that there was one of the really bad cancers started with a `p`, thank God that was pancreatic cancer. You had to help me through it, I started to get all tearful. But, first of all, I admire your courage and I thank you so much and for Susan for sharing this with the world. Without question, there will be people who will be saved as a result.

PINSKY: That`s what I`m hoping. That`s the reason I`m sharing, a) to set the record straight so there are no rumors and b) so other men can benefit, a) to know this surgery is great, I have no problems. Men are worried about erectile dysfunction and urinary problems, had nothing - zero.

HUTT: Thank God.

PINSKY: Cancer`s gone, I got zero -

HUTT: Thank God.

SCHACHER: Oh, really, do tell.

PINSKY: -- it`s a great surgery. So don`t worry about it, guys, if you need it, and also don`t hide from getting screened. People are afraid to find this diagnosis, and trust your doctor`s instinct and trust your wife`s instinct. She`s the one that sent me to the doctor in the first place.

HUTT: Yay, Susan,

SCHACHER: Good job, Susan.

PINSKY: Thank you, I love you and thank you for being the motivation for me to go do this. So, you go on out to to read about my diagnosis and treatment. I`ll also be discussing it at podcast1@loveline in the Mike and Drew podcast, and as I said, noonday tomorrow, "Oz." is a great resource if you have questions about prostate cancer. I`ll watch the Twitter feed, try to answer questions if I can. Thank you to the Prostate Cancer Foundation, my family, friends and co-workers who continue to offer their support. I do appreciate it. I`ll be back after this.

PINSKY: Time for "Last Call," it goes to Jenny Hutt.

HUTT: Hey, Dr. Drew, I just want to share with you that (CranberE) on Twitter says, "Dr. Drew just stated he has prostate cancer. Holy s__" that that was just one of many Tweets, Dr. Drew, everyone just says how classy you are and how thankful they are that you`re OK.

PINSKY: Thank you, Jenny. "HLN After Dark" starts right now.