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Images of Killer Released

Aired September 25, 2013 - 21:00   ET



DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight -- chilling video of a gunman hunting for victims, just seconds before he killed 12 people. What does this tell you about the murderer?

Plus, somebody knows what happened to Baby Ayla. Why aren`t they talking?

And, a kidnapper`s very good friend is here. He says he was fooled, blindsided by the man who took Hannah Anderson.

Let`s get started.



PINSKY: Good evening.

My co-host, attorney and Sirius XM host Jenny Hutt.

And coming up, breaking news in the Baby Ayla case -- the mystery, her mother, father, grandmother got into what happened like a shouting match, almost coming to blows today.

But first, just hours ago, the FBI released chilling images of the Navy Yard rampage killer, as he seemed to -- in fact, he was hunting for victims. Take a look at this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Surveillance video from inside Building 197. The shows Aaron Alexis stalking the halls with his sawed-off shotgun.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s almost looking like he`s at a SWAT team. He`s basically looking for victims.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Surveillance video shows him reaching into his pocket to get more shotgun shells. And when out of ammunition he started firing a Beretta handgun taken from a guard he`d shot in the lobby.

But what continues to baffle authorities is the emerging picture of Alexis as two different people at different times.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Aaron Alexis told police he was hallucinating and hearing voices. He once got so mad he shot out the tires on someone`s car.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A Defense Department official says Alexis had eight instances of misconduct in the Navy.

UNIDENTIFIED MLE: Alexis was a computer contractor with legitimate access to the yard.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He absolutely should not have gotten a clearance.


PINSKY: On our panel tonight, HLN`s Lynn Berry, Mark Eiglarsh, attorney at, Crystal Wright from, and criminologist and attorney, Casey Jordan.

Now, guys, I want to play some surveillance video while we chat. I want to get your thoughts on this. So we can put that up.

So here he is, driving in with his Prius, and I believe you`ll even see -- there he is going into the building.

Crystal, have you reviewed any of this video yet?

CRYSTAL WRIGHT, CONSERVATIVEBLACKCHICK.COM: Yes, I looked at the photos and part of the video. I found it ghoulish, but even more troubling for me is the complete breakdown in the Department of Defense in security clearances.

You know, we know that, as the taped segment mentioned, we know Aaron Alexis was discharged from the military for eight instances of misconduct. Not to mention the gun instances -- I can`t even talk, you`ve been on vacation too long. Not to mention the issues and encounters he had with guns from 2004 to 2010.

And so, what we have now is Secretary of Defense Hagel saying, hey, we missed red flags. I would say so.

And also, one final note -- the same security clearance firm that cleared Aaron Alexis, who is obviously mentally disturbed, cleared Andrew Snowden, who is now in exile in Russia. We have a problem. We have a huge problem.

And it just -- it`s to me, when I saw him going through the halls brandishing his gun like a mad man, I`ve got to tell you, it put a pit in my stomach for what those poor people must have dealt and the fact we totally missed this.

PINSKY: Casey, Crystal is right. I mean, he was mad at almost clinical sense, yes?

CASEY JORDAN, ATTORNEY: Absolutely. His parents say that he had mental issues. He has they eight issues of misconduct.

But what I see is really an inspiration from his video game addiction, which everyone who knew said he had.

JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: Oh, come on.

JORDAN: That he played them for hours and hours. He`s in sneak mode. He never --


JORDAN: When he was in the military -- I`m going to finish my sentence. He was in sneak mode because he never did sniper work when he was in the Navy. He was simply an electrician.

He is in a mode where he`s playing a role and acting out of fantasy.

PINSKY: Lynn, you want --

WRIGHT: Video games?

PINSKY: Lynn, go ahead.

LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST: There have been way too many connections to video games and mental illness and these things happening. Adam Lanza, Aaron Alexis, it`s happened too often. James DiMaggio.


WRIGHT: Lynn, what about --

BERRY: I just named three different --

WRIGHT: Dr. Drew, I want --

BERRY: I gave you three different examples of mass shooters --

WRIGHT: That`s your examples. That`s your example.

BERRY: -- and violent people who have mental illness and an attachment to these video games, because it`s an escape from reality. That`s what this seems to. They give people with absolutely no social skills, a place to be themselves under the guise of an avatar in a realistic world, take "Grand Theft Auto 5", you can go and torture one of the characters with a car battery and wrench and pull their teeth out. I mean, that is what you`re doing.

PINSKY: Jenny, you`ve been trying to say something.

HUTT: OK. Wait a minute. As Crystal was 100 percent right, this is a fail on the Department of Justice --

WRIGHT: Thank you, Jenny.

HUTT: Yes, it was a fail in the military that they let this guy have security clearance. But this is not about video games.

BERRY: No one is disputing that.

HUTT: For the three people who play video games, there are hundreds of thousands of kids who play video games who grow up to lead productive lives.

BERRY: Absolutely, but if you mental illness -- if you have a mental illness, and you depend on things to find reality in that violent zone, it can lead -- listen, there`s not a solution. You don`t have to present a mental health care to get a video game. That`s the problem, is that there are these violent places that people can act out these fantasies.

And the problem is they don`t have a separation of real world and online crazy video game world.

PINSKY: Crystal, go ahead.

WRIGHT: Can we bring some facts into this? I want to say, you are -- Lynn is inserting her own personal opinion on this. Adam Lanza was mentally disturbed. And his --

BERRY: So is this guy.

WRIGHT: His mother even has -- well, no, wait a minute. You are making a broad -- this is why I -- this misinformation that you`re spouting out, Lynn, without facts, and I want Dr. Drew to address the number of mentally depressed and mentally ill patients where it`s caused by video games. Adam Lanza`s mom, you know what she had to do -- let me finish, Lynn.

PINSKY: No, it`s Casey that`s coming in with this.

WRIGHT: Adam Lanza`s mother had to sleep on the bedroom floor or outside of his room, because she couldn`t leave him alone. There was more than one news report that talks about this. His schoolteachers worried about him, went to his mother, and she pulled him out of school.

PINSKY: Crystal, what Casey is bringing up, is it possible that at- risk people, people who are at risk for violence, at risk for disconnecting from reality, at risk for disassociating by spending hours on video games could then be at higher risk of acting out, particularly acting out in certain ways?

WRIGHT: Well, I disagree, because it completely removes personal responsibility.

PINSKY: But, Casey, is that right? Is that what you`re saying? I understand. But is that --

JORDAN: Thank you, Dr. Drew. I never said video games caused this, but it can be a causal link between mental illness and acting.

PINSKY: Mark, you`ve been nice and quiet. Have at it.

MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Well, because I`m listening to the cat fight, it gave me a headache, I just want to listen to them and let me be.

Can I just first say I got the same impression that Casey had, it looked like he was acting out on a video game. I also agree, however, with Crystal, that you don`t blame video games. It`s a combination of factors.


EIGLARSH: You have a guy clearly has mental illness, but people who have mental illness don`t necessarily go out and shoot people.

PINSKY: That`s right.

EIGLARSH: Those who play video games can do so safely for hours. The combination led -- and whatever --


PINSKY: By the way, why video games? Not why taking aim at paintball? He looks like he`s playing paintball there to me. I got millions and millions of kids play paintball --

WRIGHT: Or movies.

PINSKY: Or movies, and nobody takes aim at the those things and goes we got rid of movies, got to get rid of paintball.

WRIGHT: Let`s blame Hollywood, right?

PINSKY: I mean, the fact is the environment is full of things that are risky, but we cannot call -- we cannot point at those things as causational.

Jenny, you`re raising your hand.

HUTT: Yes. Well, I just want to say that to your point exactly, Dr. Drew, what about the actual military? Here, we`re seeing he`s acting out a video game, maybe this guy`s acting out what really goes on when there`s a sniper.

PINSKY: But somebody said he had no experience doing that? Casey, was that you? We don`t know that he`s ever done.

JORDAN: Yes, he never had any experience. He was an electrician. That is what he did.

And so, this -- we`re not saying it`s a causal factor, but there is an indirect link. Studies do show this, but we have to talk about what we carved in the gun and what was going on in his head.

PINSKY: All right. Let me put those etchings up there. Here they come. One reads, put it up there, "end of the torment". Another one, "better off this way". And "my ELF weapon."

There`s been speculation on what that was. A third -- not what you all say.

Casey, I`m going to go back to you with that. What do you think of all this? That ELF thing, I guess it`s like beaming thoughts into someone`s head, which is again what a psychotic person starts to believe.

JORDAN: Sure. And I`ve seen that a lot with schizophrenics. ELF would be an acronym for extremely low frequency. It has nothing to do with dwarfs.

The bottom line is he said to other people that he felt that the Navy was uses ELF to mess with his brain. I have talked to schizophrenics that I can`t tell you how often this is a recurrent theme that they think there are microwaves in the air that are trying to turn their brain into cheese, they think that there`s radioactive icing on their cake.

I mean, they really do believe their brain is skewed because of these frequent waves. He really did seem to think and we know he was under care of the Veterans Administration for mental health. He really seems like a classic schizophrenic, who decided to get back at the Navy for putting ELF in his head. It`s that simple.

PINSKY: Or, Casey, it might have been that, or might have been him saving people -- he might have thought he was saving people. Who knows what he thought because schizophrenia is a thought disturbance.


PINSKY: I`m going to throw up a tweet real quick. You guys put the tweet I`m looking at right here? Would you mind doing that?

It`s from (INAUDIBLE). This is responding to the games. Plenty of mentally ill people play videogames would never hurt anyone.

They`re calling us irresponsible. So people reacting to our commentary here.

Jenny, finish up.


JORDAN: Good, we stirred them up.

PINSKY: Got to go.

HUTT: More people don`t.

PINSKY: Got to go.

There was a verbal brawl today in the Baby Ayla case. You will see it and we will explain it. There`s the dad with poor Baby Ayla.

Later, something is not right with this missing child story. Are her mother`s comments suspicious? Her father suspicious? We will tell you. We`re back after this.


PINSKY: I`m back with my co-host Jenny Hutt.

Jenny, I`ve been checking out Twitter during the commercial break. That video game discussion stirred a lot of consternation in the social media. I promise -- Casey is not going to take away your video games. They`re not.

But, Jenny, I liked your comment about the military. I`ve thought that, too. If it`s true that everyone plays video games excessively is going to go hurt somebody, what about people who are actually trained to hurt people. I mean, people will argue, well, they have training, but still, they engage in that stuff on a regular basis. They don`t do what people are alleging video game users do.


PINSKY: So, it`s a worthy conversation, something to continue to talk about. Now, in just a moment we`ve got a new video of missing Baby Ayla`s father in court. He was facing assault charge for pushing his ex- girlfriend into traffic. Yes.

HUTT: What?

PINSKY: Oh, yes, this man has not been arrested.

HUTT: Video games?

PINSKY: Must be the video games he plays.

Now, the toddler had vanished just before Christmas in 2011. Police say they`re still investigating, but there have been no arrests. Ayla`s mom is becoming increasingly frustrated. Take a look at what she`s doing.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the largest criminal investigation in Maine history.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She disappeared on a December night, about a week before Christmas, after her father says he put her to bed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We think they know more than they`re telling us.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police suspect foul play, but have revealed virtually nothing about what they know.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There was blood found in Justin`s shoes. There was -- there was blood splattered on the walls.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The child`s mother who spent time in rehab questioned whether the father Justin DiPeitro mistreated Ayla, suspicious about a small gash she had on her left arm the night she went missing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Justin is a great dad. He truly, truly is.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ayla`s bedroom she shared with her cousin, who was untouched that night. Her face is blurred.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re going to tell me there were three people in that house that night and not one of them hearty Ayla screaming?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s pa, and you being her father, isn`t enough enough?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Anything new I should know about? No, we`re still interviewing people. That`s awesome, you`ve been interviewing people for almost two years.


PINSKY: Joining us Ken Altshuler, excuse me. He`s radio talk show host on WGAN 560.

Ken, can you give us any update on Ayla`s dad and his court appearance?

KEN ALTSHULER, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Yes, I can. He was in court, Justin DiPeitro, was in court for allegedly assaulting his section girlfriend Courtney Roberts. Remember, Courtney was the girlfriend in the house with him on December 17th, 2011 when Ayla went missing, as well as his sister, Alisha.

So, he was in court for allegedly assaulting her and for violating the terms of your bail. The real drama happened when his family was in the courtroom and she muttered a derogatory word to Ron Reynolds. She started yelling that her son kids his granddaughter, the fight went out to the hallway, marshals cleared everybody in the courtroom, all of them kicked out of the courthouse, except, of course, Justin DiPeitro, because he has to plead guilty to violating the bail conditions. He was not found guilty, did not plead guilty to the assault. That was a (INAUDIBLE) because his girlfriend changed her story. So, he`s got four days in jail for (INAUDIBLE) --

PINSKY: Ken, if I could interrupt, we`re also looking at the mom as sort of following this young man around, and sort of chastising him. I guess she was outside the courtroom yelling at him as well. Is that correct?

ALTSHULER: Exactly. This is the second confrontation. And this is drama we don`t see in Maine too often, Dr. Drew. As he came out of the courtroom about an hour later, the family confronted both him and Phoebe DiPeitro again. In fact Ella Reynolds yelled at Phoebe, what did you do with Ayla? When she said that, then Trista followed Justin DiPeitro and said, I know you care, what did you do with her?

He had to escape, Dr. Drew, by going to the police department which is right behind --

PINSKY: Ken, I`m interrupting you, because apparently I have footage of some of that actual interaction, so thank you very much for that report. I still have Ken, Lynn, Mark and Crystal. I beg your pardon, Lynn, Mark and Krystal with us and joining us is David Young, former criminal court judge and host of "Justice with a Snap".

As we said, here was the confrontation outside the courtroom today. Take a look at this.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just look at me, Justin, look at me.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Justin, please -- Justin, look me in the eye.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am Ayla`s grandmother and I believe she`s alive.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I am her mother!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. We believe that she`s alive and tell us what you did with her.


PINSKY: So, Lynn, police have showed bloody images from inside the house, and why now two years later? Why the delay in getting the crime scene stabilized? There`s so many unanswered questions.

BERRY: There are so many unanswered questions. The big question is why is Trista coming out to the media and telling what police told her? Police are not approving of that. She says it`s to put pressure on the state to put charges against Justin. She believes he`s responsible for Ayla`s death.

PINSKY: Judge Young, do you think --

BERRY: This is --

PINSKY: Go ahead, finish, Lynn.

BERRY: There`s theories out there all around whether or not the police put it before both of them to see who would react and in what way?

PINSKY: I don`t know.

Judge, what do you think they`re up to?

JUDGE DAVID YOUNG, FORMER CRIMINAL COURT JUDGE: I think the right hand doesn`t know what the left hand is doing. It seems after two years, in such a small community, they don`t know what`s going on? And leaking certain evidence to the mother who spouts it out? Her comments in and of itself could possibly mess up this investigation, and they had all this blood in the father`s house and they have not made an arrest? They haven`t connected anything up?

What`s going on there? It`s horrible --

PINSKY: Mark, you let out a big oy. I`m wondering what, if you`re the lawyer for the baby`s father, what do you tell him to do?

EIGLARSH: OK. First of all my oy is this was like "Jerry Springer Live" outside a courthouse when there`s a pending murder investigation. You have a gal who`s right out of rehab, Drew. This can`t be good for her sobriety to make confrontations like this. But what do I tell him to do?

Now, I get to play the devil`s role, I guess. And that is, I tell him to keep his mouth shut. Obviously, they have strong evidence that had probably was involved. Beyond a reasonable doubt, that he probably knows if not played a role, but that`s not proof beyond a reasonable doubt, and they cannot arrest him based on what I have seen, because you can`t eliminate every reasonable hypothesis of innocence.

PINSKY: I love Mark playing -- him doing the devil`s job, but, Crystal, finish this up.

EIGLARSH: Well, I agree with Mark, this is probably one of the few times that I agree with Mark, that it happens, but I think two things -- one thing that nobody said, what troubles me is nobody is mentioning the fact that neither Trista or Justin were ever married, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Yes, I`m aware of that.

EIGLARSH: This goes back to, she was a druggie, and she`s been in rehab, very unstable. He looks like there`s a lot of evidence, like Mark said, attaching him to something of foul play going on with his daughter. You had blood on the sheets. Blood found on the kids` toys, her little slippers. There was vomit in the car, blood in the car.

And it`s just unseemly all the way around. But I want to go back to the fact that why aren`t we asking questions about people can just have babies and abandon, they don`t have to get married?

I think people should have to get licenses to have children. They have to have licenses to drive. We`ve got to get licenses to get married.

This is the real -- the failure here starts with the fact that these two individuals never should have had this baby, and tragically now, she`s dead.

PINSKY: I`m going to let that fall on our viewers` ears, but there was, you know, back when Carolla and I used to do "The Love Line", we always said the same thing over again, the real problem is screwed up people having screwed up kids. That`s what the cycle is going.

But hold it on here. Behavior bureau is getting to the bottom of the missing child mystery and I`ve got Baby Ayla`s grandfather is here with us live.

And later, the killer`s good friend is going to join me. He says this murdering pal of his was caring and helpful, and maybe not the guy we think of. It`s confusing. I think it`s even confusing to him.

We`ll get to it after this.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can`t comment on the blood that was around the house?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Again, I`m not here to answer any questions. I`m just here to show my support for the community that is supporting Ayla.


PINSKY: Time for the behavior bureau. My co-host, Jenny Hutt. And we are discussing the missing baby Ayla. Her father was the last one to have seen her two years ago. He was in court today on a domestic violence charge, and things got crazy outside, even in the courtroom.

Joining us, Samantha Schacher, host of "Pop Trigger" on the Young Turks Network, criminologist and attorney Casey Jordan, host of "Wives with Knives" on Investigation Discovery, Danine Manette, criminal investigator and author of "Ultimate Betrayal", and Janine Driver, the author of "You Can`t Lie to Me."

Janine, you have a screwy connection with us here through your Skype, I`m wondering if you had a chance to look at him in the court today, his domestic violence charges. Did you see anything?

JANINE DRIVER, "YOU CAN`T LIE TO ME": I did, Dr. Drew. Can you hear me?

PINSKY: Loud and clear.

DRIVER: I`m in New Mexico.

PINSKY: Say hi to Walter White for me while you`re down there.

DRIVER: Yes, I will. I`m sure he`s play praying for you, too, and being cancer-free.

PINSKY: Thanks.

DRIVER: Very brave, I was so proud of you sharing that news.

Listen, with (INAUDIBLE), it`s very interesting. He`s very reserved. He pulls himself in a lot. We don`t see a lot of emotions. The emotion I`m looking for is anger.

He should be angry, Dr. Drew, that the baby mama is showing up with his family, calling her a murder. I`m simply not seeing anger. I`m actually seeing more sadness with a furrowed brow, which makes me concerned that maybe in fact he did kill his daughter.


PINSKY: Wow. Interesting.

Sam, you want to react to that?

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. I mean, obviously, emotions were high today outside the courtroom, but how can you blame Trista? I mean, if I were here, I would do far worse than berate him with questions. I probably would have been locked up. Clearly based on this evidence, this guy did murder his child.

PINSKY: I know Jenny would have been like you, Sam. But I`m watching Danine shake her head in ominous way.

What do you have to say there for this?

DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: Dr. Drew, this is has been a mess. The only thing that I think is going to cause a break is for them to attack the weakest link. And the weakest link here is Courtney.

She`s keeping quiet for one of two reasons, either because he has convinced her -- Justin has convinced her she was involved to be just as culpable as him and she`ll go down with him if she says anything. Or maybe she did help. Maybe she did help, you know, with the disposing of the body or cleaning up after the fact or whatever.

So, I think they need to isolate her, find a reason to arrest her, maybe on a three-day weekend, so the judicial calendar won`t wind, and she doesn`t have to be charged until Monday or Tuesday, and work her over. Put the squeeze on her. Put her kid in foster care, and squeeze this information out of her.

PINSKY: Casey, what do you think?

MANETTE: She`s the weak link. She`s get them somewhere.

PINSKY: Casey?

JORDAN: I like what Danine is saying, but the only plot hole is what if Courtney did it? If she did it, she`s not going to crack. And considering that you have Justin with domestic violence assault charges on Courtney right now, now might be a good time to revisit Justin.

But to be honest, this case is two years old, at this point, he`s in this wonderful, placated mode where he thinks he`s gotten away with it, assuming he did it. And I think the evidence point at him.

You have three people -- I`m agreeing with Danine, you have a trial of three people who know something.


JORDAN: You got to play them against each other if you want to figure it out.

PINSKY: I want to bring into this conversation Jeff Hansen. He is Baby Ayla`s step-grandfather.

Jeff, you were at the courthouse today. Things got chaotic today. You`ve heard our conversation here. What do you got to say?

JEFF HANSON, BABY AYLA`S STEP-GRANDFATHER (via telephone): Well, Dr. Drew, I believe Phoebe initiated it. She called (INAUDIBLE) an insult as she was walking by. That set things off. And, there was still a press conference that went on afterwards, but when we went out in front of the courthouse, Phoebe was sitting there, and Trista had had enough, and she went over and confronted her.

PINSKY: Jeff, what do you think happened to your granddaughter?

HANSON: I think -- this has been my contention since the first week, I think Justin had an accident with Trista. Nobody wants to believe that someone could do this purposely.

PINSKY: Danine, I wonder if you have a question for Jeff.

MANETTE: I do. I want to know how long the baby had been in his care when the baby`s arm was broken, because I`m trying to figure out how long she`d been there before she had her first accident.

HANSON: Well, the total time was 59 days. I believe it was months before she went missing. When she had the accident was November 17th, I believe.

PINSKY: Jeff, I`ve got to say, we`re going to have to take a break. Please stay with us. I`m going to keep Jeff. I`m going to keep the panel. And again, I`m talking to people who`ve been involved in these horrific cases. I hear the anguish in poor Jeff`s voice, and I`m sure it was all enflamed today by the court situation. Stay with us. We`re going to continue this conversation.

Also a little later, I`m going to discuss a friend of a killer kidnapper, why perhaps he didn`t see the abduction of Hannah Anderson coming. I will ask him. Back after this.

VINNIE POLITAN, HLN ANCHOR: Coming up top of the hour on "HLN After Dark," we`ve got a thrilling show. We`re talking about the wrongful death suit of Michael Jackson. It`s worth $2 billion, but our bold question for our jury is, do Michael Jackson`s kids deserve $2 billion? I don`t know the answer to that, but I do know that this jury loves Michael Jackson. They`re showing their love with their gloves. Top of the hour, "HLN After Dark."


PINSKY: Back with the "Behavior Bureau," my co-host, Jenny Hutt, and we are going to look at Baby Ayla`s mother at the court house confronting Dipietro`s mother and Dipietro, himself. There she is. Janine, I wonder if you had a chance to look at this footage and what your thought. I would say, I see a desperate mom. I certainly see that. What do you see?

JANINE DRIVER, HUMAN LIE DETECTOR: Well, first of all, not only I see a desperate mom, but we hear her say "our daughter." You know, we spoke recently where someone didn`t say -- the baby in the microwave, the woman never said my baby or my daughter. Here she says, "our daughter," which is ownership. This tends to be someone who is telling the truth.

Now, with him, again, we`re not seeing this anger. We actually see a little bit of a smile on him. You see him raise his hands up over his head. This is like I give up, but the baby`s mom, Ayla`s mom is very interesting, very confrontational. Look, right in the mother`s face, the baby daddy`s mom`s face. Right there, confrontational.

However, Dr. Drew, I want to caution you, just because she`s aggressive and confrontational does not mean she`s not involved. Think about who is confrontational and aggressive that was a liar. Lance Armstrong. Lance Armstrong confrontational to the point where he sued people, destroyed their lives.

This is what we call gas lighting. Gas lighting is when one person attacks the other and we automatically give them the benefit of the doubt.

PINSKY: Yes, I get that. I hear you, Janine. I understand that, but my gut tells me something a little different. I appreciate you bringing that up. I`ve got on the phone Jeff Hanson who`s Baby Ayla`s step grandfather, the stepfather of the mom.

And Jeff, I`m going to ask you a crazy question, first off. The people have been sort of pointing at your stepdaughter and her extent in treatment for chemical dependency. To my eyes, she looks like a person who is secure in her sobriety. Am I right on that?

HANSON: Correct.

PINSKY: Yes. And so, that`s an issue for her. He, on the other hand, I`m not so sure. I don`t want to -- I can`t -- I`m purely speculating, I don`t know these people, but has that been a part of the problem here?

HANSON: You mean on Justin`s side?

PINSKY: Well, I don`t want to -- we can`t confirm or really confirm any of this. I don`t want to speculate, but I just wonder if, you know, -- I just feel like drugs and alcohol are sort of a cornerstone problem in all of this. And I feel like your stepdaughter is doing something about it. I`m not sure anybody else is.

HANSON: Well, let me tell you what I left out of the case -- actually, let me respond to what the previous caller -- I didn`t get the name -- they say police had stated publicly that a kidnapping did not take place. So, that rules out Trista, period.

And what -- in answer to your question, I left out -- what I left out, when I was putting it together, was one of the statements that the investigators said to Trista when they showed her this evidence was the (INAUDIBLE) that was littered with beer bottles. One of the detectives commented the house -- it looked like a hoarder`s house.

PINSKY: Hang on, Jeff. Casey, I wonder if you have a question for Jeff. Do you see the kind of road we`re going down here?

CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Yes, I do. I`m with you, Dr. Drew, on the idea that I think that Trista`s made enough progress in her recovery where she`s overcome her guilt, because she was in rehab. Is that correct? I want to ask her grandfather that. She was in rehab when Ayla went missing, correct?

HANSON: That is correct.


JORDAN: And she`s doing well now is what you`re saying. Yes. I think that Trista has made enough progress in her recovery. She actually feels like she has the upper hand over Justin and has the courage to get in his face over what she`s always believed.

PINSKY: Right.

JORDAN: But she couldn`t do that from a moral standpoint when she was having trouble with substance abuse.

PINSKY: Right. She --

JORDAN: So, that`s just clarity.

PINSKY: You`re right. Shame and guilt has lifted a little bit in her recovery. Jenny, you want to talk about this?

JENNY HUTT, ATTORNEY: Yes. I just want to say one thing to Janine. Janine, I understand that gas lighting thing you were talking about before, but if anyone gas lit, it was the police, it was the people who told her about the evidence and lit the fire under her. And so, she, to me, justifiably went at Justin. Every mother would go at Justin, right?

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, yes, and not only that, let`s talk about the fact that Justin failed his polygraph test. He took out a life insurance policy on Baby Ayla like weeks before that she was reported missing. Come on!

PINSKY: Janine, finish me up.

DRIVER: I just want to say --


DRIVER: There`s no definitive tell when someone is being deceptive, but at the end of the day, I put my money on Justin. There`s more to the story there. But you`ve got to keep an open mind.

PINSKY: Speaking of gas lit, I`ll give Danine the last word?

MANETTE: Yes. I still think we need to go after Courtney. She`s a mom, and she doesn`t want to lose her kid. She doesn`t want her kid taken away from her. She may have been involved. She needs to cut a deal with the D.A. and talk and they need to go after Courtney.


PINSKY: Danine is into the thumb screws, guys.


MANETTE: Yes, yes, yes.

PINSKY: Thank you, Danine --

MANETTE: You have to squeeze.


PINSKY: You`re taking me to places that are uncomfortable. If you have a question or comment for the "Behavior Bureau," tweet us @DRDREWHLN, #behaviorbureau.

Next up, a mental health expert may be missed signs about a kidnapping and a murder. He`s going to be here. He`s going to talk about what he observed and how he`s thinking about the Hannah Anderson case now. Back after this.



PINSKY (voice-over): Bound, gagged and beaten to death. Disturbing details of the murders of Hannah Anderson`s mother and brother.

DR. BILL LLOYD, PATHOLOGIST: And it was this crowbar that was used to strike the back of her head 12 times. That probably made her unconscious and spared her from the remaining suffering. He was in such a hurry. He left the entire roll of duct tape still around Christina`s mouth and neck, and then on top of that, another violent injury, a knife slash, again, ear to ear.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host Jenny Hutt. I`ve also got Casey Jordan, Crystal Wright, Danine Manette. Hannah Anderson was kidnapped by a family friend, so to speak, who killed the mother and brother in a savage way.

Joining my panel as well is Andrew Spanswick. He`s a mental health expert and a close friend at one time of James Dimaggio. And I think, Andrew, you maybe have changed your opinion about him? I`m curious on your reaction to the autopsy report, the brutality of these deaths.

ANDREW SPANSWICK, JAMES DIMAGGIO`S FRIEND: Yes. I wouldn`t say I`ve changed my opinion. You know, I`m still very curious as to everything that happened. You know, it`s just one of these cases that just keep going on and on, and the sensationalism by the sheriff`s department is a little disturbing.

Most importantly, I think we need to really understand what happened. The perpetrator`s families are ignored in these situations, and you know, we`re talking about trying to break a cycle of violence. We have all these things happening in society, and nobody is doing anything about like trying to figure out really why these things happen and what we can do about them.

PINSKY: Oh, Crystal, I thought you`d like to chew on that a little bit. So, -- I think -- I`ll let you ask Andrew a question, but I think what he`s saying is that we have disturbed family systems, the children are being traumatizes, and perhaps, James, as an expression of that later in adulthood?

SPANSWICK: Yes, I mean, I think that`s very clear.

PINSKY: Crystal, go ahead.

CRYSTAL WRIGHT, CONSERVATIVEBLACKCHICK.COM: But Andrew, I don`t understand what do you mean exactly by -- you said that the police are mischaracterizing what happened? I mean, the evidence shows that he brutalized the mom. He had in -- I mean, he killed two people.

He killed the mother and he killed the son, then he blew up the house, then he shot the dog. Duct tape on the mouth. I`m trying to understand what -- how they -- what do you mean exactly by this has been mischaracterized and you don`t really know what`s happened?

SPANSWICK: Yes. Look, if you go back from the beginning of this case, if you go back from the beginning of this case, he was originally labeled a pedophile. There`s been no evidence reported of that.

WRIGHT: Well, it looks like he was.

SPANSWICK: Look, the only person that really knows what happened is probably Hannah Anderson.

WRIGHT: Right. But I have another question for you.


WRIGHT: You`re a mental health expert, real quick, and then I`ll let you finish. You`re a mental health expert.


WRIGHT: Would you think if you`re treating somebody -- you`ve been friends with Dimaggio for a long time. You think it`s normal for a single man of his age in his 40s to want to take a teenage girl who is 16 on road trips without any other adult? I mean, I just want to ask you, if you are treating somebody like that, what would your recommendation be?

SPANSWICK: I deal with a lot of things that aren`t normal. In fact, most things aren`t normal. The concept of normality is sort of ridiculous concept. You know, the Jim that I knew, you know, didn`t have these types of behaviors evident. And, you know, I`ve treated people that have. Often people with trauma and Jim had a lot of trauma growing up, they might stop those feelings and stop that trauma --

HUTT: Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait. You just said that Jim that you know didn`t have these issues, but the Jim that you know and we come to know was taking Hannah on extended trips with overnights. Why was he so interested in alone time with the teenager girl?

WRIGHT: And you`re not answering the question.

SPANSWICK: I think, look, if you really knew the situation, if you knew about how Jim repeatedly had taken on a fatherly role --

HUTT: It doesn`t matter. He`s not her father.


SPANSWICK: His father was absent. His father was absent.

PINSKY: Hang up for a second. Casey, I want to get you and then Danine. Casey, go ahead if you have a question to sort of clarify this further.

JORDAN: Andrew, do you think that it`s possible that Jim in his fatherly role with Hannah actually became ephebophile, isolated to her, very situation specific, all right? And that he felt in love with her, got a crush on this girl, because he felt like he could rescue her from her family issues?


PINSKY: Define the ephebophile for us.

JORDAN: Oh, well, it`s different from pedophile, but you`ve got late adolescence, usually age 14 to 18 years old. They look as adults, so the lines become blurry --

PINSKY: Go ahead, Andrew.

SPANSWICK: Look, first of all, the pedophile versus statutory rape, I think, that`s, you know, a different issue and that`s criminal justice not really -- we`re talking about -- if you`re talking about psychological versus criminal justice as a different --


JORDAN: Do you think he was an epebophile with Hannah? That`s the question.

SPANSWICK: Only Hannah Anderson knows that. The fact that she hasn`t reported any sexual interaction between him and Jim I find very interesting.

PINSKY: Fair enough. Danine.

HUTT: Yes. And as far as the --


MANETTE: -- because I`m seeing that he was spending a lot of time at her gymnastic practices and all day long with her cheerleading, but he never seemed to go to Ethan`s football practices. So, I`m just wondering, was it just her he was the father or was he the father of both of them? I mean, the fatherly role of both of them.


SPANSWICK: You know, it`s very interesting that you all such experts in James Dimaggio`s behavior. The reality is that --

MANETTE: It was a question.

SPANSWICK: He took on a fatherly role for all of the family, including the mother. And the father himself, Brent, thought for a long time -- he was in disbelief even when this case broke --


PINSKY: How do you understand this? Help us. We`re trying to understand this. I`m out of time. I`m going to give Andrew the floor for a second. Help us understand this.

SPANSWICK: Clearly, we`re all trying to understand this. And, I think that it`s something --

WRIGHT: No, you`re trying to understand it --

PINSKY: Let him talk. Let him talk. Andrew, go ahead. Finish up.

SPANSWICK: Look, if I had the answers, I`d have the million dollar question. But, the reality is that we haven`t had enough information released. We haven`t had --

PINSKY: You`re waiting to see. OK. But listen, he`s right in that we all -- remember the family members talking yesterday, that they just had this terrible feeling, this was incomplete, the evidence isn`t all in yet. The pieces aren`t adding up. We can`t -- maybe Hannah knows some answers. Maybe somebody is talking to her. We ain`t got it yet. We will, hopefully, soon. Thank you, panel. We`re back after this.

SPANSWICK: Thank you.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt, and Mark, Danine and Sam. And I want to thank our viewers for all the wishes you sent to me via Twitter and Facebook. It was deeply appreciated and moving. First, I`m trying to get the word out about early detection for all cancers, and thank you for your own personal stories, family members about cancer.

I`m going to give you a sample of some of the responses I got. Lynette says, quote, "Thankful I trusted my doctors` intuition. I had a colonoscopy at age 47, which revealed a stage 3 tumor."

And, I want to respond to that little bit. You guys, you still have to get the stool blood checked every year, all of you. That will lead the doctors, not just use intuition, but to know you need that colonoscopy. And if you`re over 50, you get it every five to seven years, depending on your doctor`s recommendations and your genetic heritage. Danine, I think you had a personal response to all this, yourself, too?

MANETTE: Me? You`re talking to me, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: I`m talking to you.

MANETTE: Yes. You know, my father has been dealing with prostate cancer for quite some time. And I remember when he first told me about it, and I felt like it was a death sentence for him. And that was when my son Ryan was a baby. He`s in college now.


MANETTE: So, all this to say that it`s so important that you put this information out there and that people understand that they can get on the front end of this. It`s not a death sentence.

PINSKY: Right.

MANETTE: And I just commend you for putting this out there and getting the word out and letting people know what they need to do, and they need to listen to their doctors, listen themselves and their families.

PINSKY: Thanks, Danine. And cancer is not one illness, it`s thousands of illnesses. And even something like prostate cancer is actually different illnesses at different stages of life and different grades. Prostate cancer itself is probably a range of different illnesses. Mark, we`re pigheaded men, right? We don`t like to see the doctor. I know I`m that way. Are you?

MARK EIGLARSH, SPEAKTOMARK.COM: I`ve got a broken ankle. It took me six weeks to go in after jumping rope on it. Finally do something -- but my wife said I`m limping around and I need to do something. But Drew, I got some tweets this morning saying that as a direct result of your disclosure, your discussion, your courage, people are going to action. And that to me was extraordinary.

SAMBOLIN: That is extraordinary. And Sam, you have a comment, too? I do appreciate that.

SCHACHER: Yes. I agree with everything Mark said. I`ve gotten an enormous amount of tweets. Just absolutely so happy that you brought up the awareness, because it`s encouraging them, to get checked. But really quickly, what age is too young? Should my husband get checked at age 33? My brother at age 35?

PINSKY: Well, you know what? He has to work that with his doctor. IT depends on his genetic heritage and those risk factors. Thirties a little young, but we start doing rectal exams in the mid-30s, sometimes. I got to go, guys. "Last Call" is next.


PINSKY: "Last Call" to Jenny Hutt.

HUTT: I want to thank you, Dr. Drew, on behalf of all lives because now when we tell our husbands to go to the doctor, they`re going to listen.

PINSKY: I hope so. My wife saved my life. I realized that today. So, honey, thank you.

Thank you all for watching. Jenny, thank you for doing such a great job. "HLN After Dark" begins right now.