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Was Mom Judge & Jury?; Shellie Said What?
Aired September 26, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK EIGLARSH, GUEST HOST (voice-over): Tonight, outrage, a rapist walks free just hours ago after serving a 30-day sentence. Is that justice?
Plus, George Zimmerman`s wife said what? The human lie detector is here to read between the lines.
And a homeless man is beaten to death by a woman who police say admits it. What did he do to make this mom grab a bat and start swinging?
DR. DREW ON CALL starts right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
EIGLARSH: (AUDIO GAP) Eiglarsh. I`m sitting in for my dear friend Dr. Drew.
My co-host is a shocker, Samantha Schacher.
Coming up, the rapist who is free after he was serving just a month in jail. He is free tonight.
But first, this woman, 33-year-old Forsythia Owen. She`s been charged with first-degree murder. Police says she beat a homeless man to death with a baseball bat as he slept in an alley. Why? She claims it`s because he sexually assaulted her little girl.
But there`s so much more to this story. Take a look.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to police, the man was 42-year-old Denzle Rainey. He had been beaten and was left in the garage.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After some alcohol struggles at home, he became homeless and often slept in that alley.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The victim suffered a cracked skull.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Forsythia Owen charged with first-degree murder --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Demonstrated how she struck Rainey over and over again.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Owen was walking around claiming Rainey had inappropriately touched a 4-year-old girl.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t believe it. I just want to know why she did it. Why she hit him so hard.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He never bothered anyone, never stopped anyone, never said anything to anyone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My husband is the most lovable, caring person that I know.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: From my understandings of looking at her, you could tell she was on something.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was just babbling and babbling.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He doesn`t deserve to be dead right now.
EIGLARSH: In just a few minutes, I`m going to be talking exclusively to the victim`s wife. Naturally, she is outraged. She calls the sexual assault claim a complete lie.
But right now on the phone, I have KMGH reporter Jaclyn Allen.
Jaclyn, what`s the very latest with this?
JACLYN ALLEN, 7NEWS REPORTER (via telephone): Hi, Mark, thanks for having me.
Owen will be in court tomorrow on a long list of charges, including first-degree murder after deliberation. And the judge is going to allow cameras in the courtroom for that. And we`ve seen immense public interest in this case here because this young Englewood woman claims that she killed a homeless man she believed was a pedophile.
But police arrested Forsythia Owen after they found Denzle Rainey`s body in the alley behind her home Sunday. And the arresting officer says that she confessed that she heard, she demonstrated to officers how she hit him over and over with a baseball bat.
She told police that she did it after a little girl said she`d been sexually abused by Rainey. Rainey has been homeless and sleeping in that alley there for a few weeks, working through what his family called a rough patch and dealing with alcoholism. And we found he does have a criminal history, but that`s mostly alcohol related.
Forsythia Owen on the other hand, she`s the one with the violent criminal past, including multiple assault charges. She was convicted of stabbing an ex-boyfriend in the chest. Also, court records showed she`d been diagnosed with a mood disorder and abused alcohol, meth and cocaine.
So, we`re definitely looking at some credibility issues there as indicated by the premeditated murder charges that she is now facing -- Mark.
EIGLARSH: Yes, there`s no question there`s going to be some attacks to her credibility.
Jaclyn, I certainly thank you for joining us.
Tonight, we`ve got Lauren Lake from TV`s "Paternity Court", HLN`s Lynn Berry, CNN legal analyst Danny Cevallos and Judge David Young, former criminal court judge, I know, I`ve been in front of him a number of times, and host of "Justice with a Snap."
OK, let`s get serious for a moment.
Here`s a list of these injuries that led to his death -- listen to this - a skull fracture, six broken ribs, which cut his liver, two broken arms, a broken wrist.
Lynn, let`s start with you. Obviously, the defense lawyers are going to argue she was clearly justified because this guy was allegedly a pedophile. You think somehow that`s going to fly?
LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST: You know, what`s difficult in this case is there`s allegations that a child was molested. But police have not come out and said a child has been molested, and her violence how incredibly brutal this murder was goes to something so much deeper than just I`m trying to stop a man that harmed my child.
This was violent to a different degree. And her criminal history, her multiple assaults are going to come into play. No doubt about that.
EIGLARSH: Well, let`s talk about that. This mother has been arrested on multiple assault charges in the past, including stabbing her ex- boyfriend in the chest.
Lauren Lake -- what does that say to you, Lauren Lake?
LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY: Mark, you know, it doesn`t sound good. I`m a straight shooter. It`s not what you want to hear when you`re a defense attorney and you`re trying to say your client just lost control because she heard this ridiculous, incredible, disgusting news that this homeless person had in some way molested her child.
However, with that kind of background, it`s an issue. Ultimately, I want to know where was the bat? Did she bring it with her to the alley? Was it in the alley?
There`s several facts I want to know to figure out whether this was premeditated, whether it was this kind of heat of passion in the moment. Did the child point the man out and then just in that moment she attacked him?
There`s so many facts I want to know. I haven`t gotten there yet.
EIGLARSH: Right. Let`s go to Danny Cevallos. Danny, the good thing about being in the big box and hosting, is I get to put you all on the spot.
So, Danny, we haven`t planned this out. But you now are defending this woman. You`re giving your closing argument. What are you going to say?
DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I`m going to hope I can convince a jury to forget the fact this is hardly a self-defense case as it is.
Number one, any danger had already passed. If the man was in the alleyway, he didn`t pose any immediate threat. And that`s going to be a real hurdle to get by. I`m going to have to hope I can draw on the jury`s heartstrings and make them forget this is not a good self-defense case at all, and to have them thinking about defensive child, little child. He may or may not have done something inappropriate with a child.
So, that would have to be any defense attorney`s approach because bottom line, this is a terrible self-defense case. The self-defender steps into the shoes of the person they`re protecting and the child was nowhere nearby. Not in danger at the time.
EIGLARSH: Judge Young --
EIGLARSH: Go ahead -- Samantha --
BERRY: They`re going to have to overcome the fact that she also -- there are also court records that says she has a mood disorder and she has a history of meth, cocaine, drug abuse, alcohol abuse. That`s going to be hard to overcome.
EIGLARSH: I want to ask Judge Young. Listen, I`m smelling a clear jury pardon request where the defense turns to the jury, somehow blames the victim and says, you know what, you`ve got to excuse this conduct. Is that what you`re seeing, Dave?
JUDGE DAVID YOUNG, FORMER CRIMINAL COURT JUDGE Probably, Mark. But, you know, I could tell you I have a body like Mario Lopez and you`re not going to believe it. Just like this woman --
EIGLARSH: No, I`m saying --
YOUNG: Listen, without any more evidence, I think this woman is delusional and I think that -- you know, I just thought of something. Have you ever seen that woman and George Zimmerman together at the same time? Do you think she might be George Zimmerman with ovaries? Could be. Could be.
EIGLARSH: Very interesting thought. I had not thought of that. Samantha, what do you think?
All right. Let me do this. We need to talk about how she was acting the day after the beating. Apparently, we`re hearing from neighbors that she was acting extraordinarily bizarre and strange. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: From my understandings of looking at her, you could tell she was on something. That`s why my little sister and I would stay away from her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was babbling and babbling, something about her being molested or something like that, you know? I mean, she was kind of incoherent about everything. She was talking and talking and rambling and rambling.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
EIGLARSH: So, Lauren Lake, sounds to me like we`re going to hear possibly some elements of drug abuse, maybe mental illness. Is that what`s at play here?
LAKE: Well, possibly, Mark. But then the issue is, OK, if she has a mental defect, did it in some way affect her ability to know right from wrong the time of her actions if she knew I beat up this homeless man because my daughter said or I heard that he`d molested my daughter. That is contrary to the mental defect.
This is -- this case is a mess for her, because she`s bringing so much baggage to the table. As the defense attorney, you`ll have a difficult time.
EIGLARSH: Yes, Cevallos, this is your fake client, I`m putting you on the spot here. Are you going to get her out on bond? Any chance of that?
CEVALLOS: On bond on this case?
CEVALLOS: That`s not going to happen. What Mark is saying --
EIGLARSH: Come on, what kind of lawyer are you, man? Of course, it`s going to happen, make the argument.
CEVALLOS: Oh, make the argument. She`s not -- yes, I`ll make the argument. The argument is this --
CEVALLOS: She`s not a threat to society, an immediate threat. She`s not a risk of flight. Her parents are here, they`re putting up their house.
EIGLARSH: Danny, there`s more passion -- Danny, there`s more passion in this chair that I`m sitting in.
Judge Young, any chance you`d give her a bond.
CEVALLOS: Let her out.
EIGLARSH: David, Judge Young, are you going to let her out?
YOUNG: I wouldn`t let her out on one of my worst days.
OK. This woman has so many negatives against her. And, you know, but you have to remember, mark if this is true, then if I were the defense lawyer, I would try to get a lesser charge instead of first-degree murder in which she can be put to death and maybe you can get for involuntary manslaughter, temporary insanity, do something to save her, because that`s the only way this woman is going to be saved, if she had a true belief this guy did something horrible to the 4-year-old kid, otherwise, done.
EIGLARSH: All right. Well, listen, stick around, panel.
Coming up, the victim`s wife is here exclusively. I can`t wait to talk to her. What she knows about this.
And then, later, George Zimmerman`s wife must really have it in for him. Wait until you hear what she said about the man she married.
Back right after this.
EIGLARSH: Welcome back. I`m sitting in for my buddy Dr. Drew.
My co-host is the lovely and intelligent Samantha Schacher.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, CO-HOST: Thank you.
EIGLARSH: And my panel -- you`re quite welcome. Well-deserved.
Now, we were talking about a homeless man beaten to death in an apparent revenge killing. That`s what they`re calling this. The admitted killer is this woman. Take a look.
She claims that he sexually assaulted her daughter. But her credibility obviously has been called into question.
Joining me now exclusive by phone is Lisa Rainey. She`s the wife of the victim who was brutally beaten to death.
Lisa? Lisa you there?
LISA RAINEY, WIFE OF THE VICTIM (via telephone): I`m here.
EIGLARSH: OK. Lisa, first of all, thank you for joining us. We appreciate it.
The first question I have to ask you is your husband was living on the street, apparently. First question, why was he homeless?
RAINEY: Why he was homeless?
RAINEY: Because of his drinking.
EIGLARSH: His drinking was a problem for you, for him? What happened?
RAINEY: His drinking was -- he had an alcohol problem and me and my kids had to leave.
RAINEY: And that`s why he was homeless.
EIGLARSH: OK. When he was homeless, was he still having contact with the children?
EIGLARSH: How long has he been homeless?
RAINEY: Three weeks.
EIGLARSH: OK. What can you tell us -- other than him being an alcoholic, what can you tell us about your husband?
RAINEY: Well, my husband was an amazing father, amazing husband. He loved his three kids. He loved me. And he would do anything for anybody that would ask him to do.
EIGLARSH Did you know this woman who attacked your husband?
RAINEY: Yes, we did. She lived above on Sherman Street where we used to live at.
EIGLARSH: What do you know about her?
RAINEY: Well, I just know her that when she comes up and down she says hi to us. I thought she was a cool person until all of this coming out. What she`s talking about my husband, it`s not true.
EIGLARSH: Lisa, the panel has questions for you.
Lauren, we`ll go to you.
LAKE: I just wanted to know, was there any concern in your relationship with your husband. Had you ever seen anything? Witnessed anything that would suggest your husband maybe had issues, maybe sexually assaulting any other child, inappropriate behavior towards a child -- anything that you know about?
RAINEY: No. My husband never harmed a child.
RAINEY: Because if somebody hurt our three kids, he would go out there.
LAKE: Any sexual issues. Maybe -- I`m just asking -- addictions to pornography, anything that you think may be an issue sexually?
RAINEY: None whatsoever.
EIGLARSH: All right. Let me go to Samantha. You had a question.
SCHACHER: Lisa, first of all, my condolences, I`m sorry. I want to follow-up to Lauren was stating.
If you believe that he`s had no history, no prior history whatsoever, why do you think these allegations were brought up against him?
RAINEY: Because she`s -- I think she`s hiding for somebody else that was with her. And if there was somebody with her -- because I know for a fact that my husband would never hurt any child.
EIGLARSH: Well, Lisa, he was allegedly violent with you. Did you file a restraining order against him? Lisa?
RAINEY: Not for myself.
EIGLARSH: I`m sorry?
RAINEY: Not for myself.
EIGLARSH: Was he violent with someone else?
Any other questions -- Lynn, go ahead.
BERRY: Yes, Lisa, you mentioned you think there was a second person involved. Why do you think she`s covering for a second person? She admitted to doing it herself.
RAINEY: Because I don`t think she could do that much damage to my husband.
BERRY: You don`t think she`s strong enough?
EIGLARSH: Judge Young, what did you want to say?
YOUNG: Yes. You know, ma`am, you said you love your husband and he loved his kids and his kids loved him. Someone who loves somebody doesn`t let them stay in the streets for three weeks. How do you explain that to America? How do you explain that to the world?
RAINEY: He was an alcoholic. He went to treatment for it but he decided on his own to leave the treatment.
EIGLARSH: All right. Lisa, we thank you very much for joining us. We thank you again for that exclusive. We appreciate the insight.
Coming up, we`ve got George Zimmerman`s wife who doubts his innocence. And now, she`s telling the world all about it. Now why? Well, Dr. Drew`s behavior bureau is here.
And later -- tonight, a rapist walks free in Montana. We`re going to talk about his 31-day sentence that outraged the nation.
Back right after this.
EIGLARSH (voice-over): Her husband was at the center of a court case that gripped and divided the nation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They couldn`t find probable cause.
EIGLARSH: As George Zimmerman stood trial for the shooting death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, it was his wife Shellie Zimmerman that remained by his side, even perjuring herself.
ATTORNEY: Other assets you have?
SHELLIE ZIMMERMAN, WIFE: None that I know of.
EIGLARSH: But two months after his acquittal --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Verdict, we the jury find George Zimmerman not guilty.
EIGLARSH: Shellie filed for divorce and then their private dispute exploded publicly.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: His wife calls 911 claiming he threatened her with a knife and a gun.
SHELLIE ZIMMERMAN: He`s in his car and he has his hand on his gun and keeps saying "step closer".
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The caller was Shellie and she said that she was being threatened with a handgun.
SHELLIE ZIMMERMAN: I don`t know what he`s capable of. I`m really scared.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We did not find a gun on his body. We did not find a gun in the house. As of right now, there is no gun.
EIGLARSH: So what really happened that day? Tonight we know because Shellie Zimmerman is talking.
EIGLARSH: It`s time for Dr. Drew`s behavior bureau, usually a party I`m not invited to. This all-women exclusive club.
EIGLARSH: I`m Mike Eiglarsh, filling in for Dr. Drew. And my co- host, the lovely Samantha Schacher.
SCHACHER: Thank you.
EIGLARSH: Joining us: clinical and forensic psychologist Cheryl Arutt, psychologist Judy Ho, psychotherapist Wendy Walsh, author of a book I actually looked through today, "The 30-Day Love Detox."
WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: I`m glad you did.
EIGLARSH: I did.
And, Blanca Cobb, senior instructor at the Body Language Institute.
Now, George Zimmerman, go figure, is back in the news tonight. As newly released dash cam video from the Florida Highway Patrol reveals why he was stopped on August 19th. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FHP OFFICER: The reason I`m stopping you when you went by me, your tag cover. You`ve got the tag cover on there, they`re illegal because it makes harder to read, OK? I`m going to check your window tint, a little bit too dark.
You`re way too dark, man. You`re at 3 percent. Your front can`t be below 28 percent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
EIGLARSH: Samantha --
EIGLARSH: OK. I`m starting with you.
EIGLARSH: It seems to me that the Zimmermans are in the news every time, probably like my kids ask for candy. And that is quite often.
SCHACHER: I`m sure. It`s like a soap opera. And here`s the thing, OK?
SCHACHER: George Zimmerman, no matter how minuscule of the law, he needs to abide the law. He`s underneath a microscope, he basically got away with murder. If I were him, I would lay low. They need to go away, both of them.
EIGLARSH: Well, I`m wondering. Cheryl, let me ask you this -- do you think that either cautiously or subconsciously they both want to be in the news? Or does trouble just follow them?
CHERYL ARUTT, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, that`s a really good question, Mark.
EIGLARSH: Thank you.
ARUTT: I think George Zimmerman cannot get out of his own way. As Sam was saying, you would think that somebody would really lay low after something like this. But he keeps repeatedly behaving as if the law just doesn`t apply to him. He can kind of do whatever he wants. And he`s an attention monger.
And you see this kind of narcissistic exploitation that his wife is seeing where people are really kind of chess pieces. They`re -- if they can do something for you, you give them attention. But the minute you don`t have use for them anymore, it`s like used tissue.
WALSH: They`re accessories.
EIGLARSH: Used tissue, I like that metaphor.
Judy, I saw you nodding with agreement.
JUDY HO, PSYCHOLOGIST: I agree with Cheryl. You know, this man is a classic narcissist. And now that he`s been acquitted, he thinks he`s invincible and can get away with anything.
And he does use his wife as a pawn no she served his purpose of getting acquitted. There you go, I`m off on my victory tour as she said in her interview.
And so, you know, when I look at the relationship here, yes, you know what, he should run, he should hide. He should hide behind those dark tinted car windows because everybody is going to be after him months after he was just acquitted off a violent crime he was violent toward his wife.
EIGLARSH: Say what you want about Casey Anthony, that`s the one thing she was kind of good at. She disappeared for a little bit.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She knew how to disappear.
EIGLARSH: Let`s talk about Shellie for one second, OK?
Now, Shellie Zimmerman says she regrets not filing the charges, apparently, after the September 9th domestic dispute. And she told the "Today" show how that incident really opened up her eyes. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHELLIE ZIMMERMAN: I believe the evidence but this revelation in my life has really helped me to take the blinders off and start to see things differently.
MATT LAUER, NBC: Let me make sure I understand. So, you now doubt his innocence, at least the fact he was acting in self-defense on the night that Trayvon Martin was killed?
SHELLIE ZIMMERMAN: I think anyone would doubt that innocence because I don`t know the person that I`ve been married to. And I really don`t know what he`s capable of. This person that I`m married to that I`m divorcing, I have kind of realized now that I don`t know him. And I really don`t know what he`s capable of.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
EIGLARSH: All right, Blanca. I see a lot here, but I`m no body language expert. What do you see from her?
BLANCA COBB, BODY LANGAUGE EXPERT: Well, one thing that I do see, Mark, is that she was asked a question. Do you doubt? That`s the question that Matt Lauer posed. And what she said was, I don`t see how anyone -- I see how everyone could doubt him. And I`m paraphrasing here.
She did not answer the question. And when people don`t answer the question, it gives us pause. It makes us wonder why. I think there`s something she`s not telling.
People will do that. It sounds like a credible answer, right? But she`s not talking about herself. And the question was what does she think?
EIGLARSH: Well, apparently, Wendy, what she thinks now is he may be innocent. During that trial she stuck next to him like glue. What do you make of her change here?
WALSH: Well, I think, you know, they were in the bubble, they were doing everything and I`m sure his lawyers told her, you know, don`t make any waves at this point. And they were in not just a legal bubble, they were also in a celebrity bubble.
And as much as you guys say he should be hiding behind tinted glass, people should worry about him -- the truth is with his kind of celebrity and the supporters he has around them, those gun lovers who pat him on the back as he goes into restaurants, yay, what you`ve done for free gun rights, whatever, he probably feels like a star and a celebrity.
PINSKY: I would tell him. Say, dude, your ego`s not your amigo, you know?
ARUTT: That`s a good one.
EIGLARSH: Let`s talk more about the "Today" show interview, because I thought it was fascination, some of the things she`s now saying. You know, they asked -- I think it was Matt Lauer who interviewed her, asked Shellie about this confusion over whether George was carrying a gun on the day of this domestic altercation. Let`s see what happens.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHELLIE ZIMMERMAN: I did not see a gun, but I saw -- I know my husband, I saw him in a stance and a look in his eyes that I`ve never seen before. His shirt was halfway unbuttoned and he was putting his hand in his shirt and saying, "Please step closer. Please step closer."
So I think that just logically, I assumed he had a gun on him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
EIGLARSH: All right. Samantha, you listen to the 911 tape. She`s certain there was a gun. Now she`s not so certain.
SCHACHER: OK. Here`s the thing, Mark. First of all, I do believe she assumed he had a gun because he said he carries a gun all the time. His attorney said he was carrying a gun. But you`re right.
Here`s the thing, I think that this is -- she`s scorned, OK. She said also in the "Today" interview that he ran off, you know, right after she stuck right by his side like glue. He did his victory tour, in her words, supposedly he has this new girlfriend.
SCHACHER: And you know what, she`s the one that has perjurized herself, he`s acquitted and I`m sure she has a lot of resentment.
EIGLARSH: Right. Stick around, because I want to analyze her motives. I want to get into and trying to nail down what she`s doing. More with the wonderful behavior bureau.
And then, later, is this man the luckiest criminal alive?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Gross.
EIGLARSH: Yes, easy, hold on, people. He`s out of jail after serving just one month -- not for disorderly intoxication but for raping his student.
Back after this.
VINNIE POLITAN, HLN HOST: Coming up top of the hour on "HLN After Dark," we`re going to put Baby Ayla`s dad on trial in the court of public opinion with our in-studio jury. Our bold question, does Baby Ayla`s dad know what happened? Well, Baby Ayla`s mom thinks so. She confronted him at the courthouse. We`ve got the entire video which we`ll show to our jury and we`ll show to you at home. Top of the hour, "HLN After Dark."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And he continually has his hand on his gun and he keeps saying step closer. He`s just threatening all of us with --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Step closer to what?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With the firearm. And he`s going to shoot us. He punched my dad in the nose. My dad has a mark on his face. I saw his glasses were on the floor. He accosted my father and then took my iPad out of my hands and smashed it and cut it with a pocket knife. I don`t know what he`s capable of. I`m really scared.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
EIGLARSH: I`m Mark Eiglarsh in for my buddy, Dr. Drew, tonight. Back with me, my wonderful "Behavior Bureau," Samantha Schacher, my co-host. And I`ve got to get to a little tweet, Miss Walsh, which apparently involves you.
EIGLARSH: Yes. From Michelle Flack (ph), she said, "Did Wendy Walsh just say Zimmerman supporters are gun lovers?" No, justice lovers.
EIGLARSH: Wendy, I`ll let you respond if you want or you can just ignore it, because what people think of you is none of your business.
WENDY WALSH, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, do I have 30 minutes to do a commercial for gun regulation and how the mentally ill shouldn`t have guns, some certain neighborhood watch people shouldn`t have guns, et cetera, et cetera. We should be really careful about who we give guns to, OK?
EIGLARSH: All right. Let me go to Blanca on this one. Blanca, I`m trying to figure out what Shellie`s motivation is. Are you smelling a book deal here? Is she just trying to get back at George? Maybe because she wants one of the dogs or both of the dogs in the divorce. What do you think is her motivation?
BLANCA COBB, LIE DETECTION EXPERT: Out of all of those options, I pick, E, all of the above. (INAUDIBLE).
COBB: You know, when people divorce, they want a clean break. And sometimes, they can`t get a clean break, it`s going to be a messy break. The point is they want out. They`re over, it`s done -- one time to support him. She may no longer feel that way because they`re no longer a couple.
EIGLARSH: All right. Wendy, what did you want to say?
WALSH: Yes. There`s something really important that you have to understand about conflict in divorce. When couples are separating, you know, a part of them feel abandoned. They`re detached. They want to stay connected. And one of the ways they keep a relationship is actually through conflict.
You see couples that stay in court for years battling over their divorce. So, that`s their way of staying connected is through the fighting now instead of the love.
EIGLARSH: Unfortunately, I see too much of it when I`m defending them in the criminal arena and they`re going at it. It is not pretty. It reminds me that I really should probably pick another line of work. Anyway, listen to what she told -- we`re talking about Shellie Zimmerman now. She told some more things in her interview on the "Today" show on NBC. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After standing by him, he kind of left and I guess kind of went on a victory tour without me. And I thought that I was living a life with him and that we were going to kind of rebuild after all of this. And he had other plans for me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
EIGLARSH: So, Samantha, here`s the question, I want to ask you and then I`ll also want to ask Cheryl about this. Is she more concerned about the fact that he went on a victory tour or the fact that she wasn`t a part of it?
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: I think both. I think there`s so many -- OK. Just like earlier we talked about how she is scorned. Just like -- listen, first of all, this is common like you had mentioned, Mark. OK, millions of couples out there are going through domestic disputes and emotional divorces, and we`re just watching this because, you know, recently followed this high-profile trial, George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin.
But here`s the thing, I think more than anything, book deal aside, I think that she`s scorned and vengeful and she`s airing her dirty laundry, and it`s embarrassing, even though I feel bad.
EIGLARSH: Cheryl, she wants you to -- she wants you to believe that she`s a victim. Is she?
CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., CLINICAL & FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, in some ways, yes, I think she is. In some ways, I think she may be mad at herself. Let`s face it, she has a lot of good reasons to be angry. You know, the night that he shot Trayvon Martin, she had left the house, they had a fight. He`s sitting in his car. He had no wife to go home to.
He was all revved up. She lied for him and perjured herself in court. And then, the day that he broke her iPad and did all of that, he knew she was coming to the house to get her stuff. This was a planned thing. Her attorney and his attorney knew this was happening. He chose to show up, to bring his new girlfriend, to take things to act out violently toward her. This is a guy who just keeps tempting fate.
EIGLARSH: All right. Judy, I`ll give you the last word. Go ahead.
JUDY HO, PH.D., @DRJUDYHO: Well, Mark, I think you were seeing a therapy session in progress in her interview this morning.
HO: You know, she`s obviously scorned. She`s obviously hurt, and he embarrassed her with what he did. So, now, she`s trying to embarrass him. And I really think that`s the basis of her motive here.
SCHACHER: Me, too.
EIGLARSH: All right. Thank you wonderful "Behavior Bureau." Thank you for including me in that exclusive club. We`ll have you back, I`m sure, without me.
EIGLARSH: Next, were you outraged as I kind of was a little bit by that rapist who got a month in jail only for assaulting his student? Well, he`s out of jail tonight. And I have some very strong feelings about this case. And I`m very eager to share those with you right after this.
EIGLARSH: Welcome back. I`m Mark Eiglarsh filling in for my bud, Dr. Drew, and my co-host is still the wonderful, Samantha Schacher.
Now, a 49-year-old teacher, I know you all heard about him, he admitted to raping his 14-year-old student. 49, 14.
EIGLARSH: He`s a free man tonight. This is video of him leaving the probation office. It`s just in to HLN. He spent only 31 days, not years, days behind bars after a judge handed down this very highly controversial sentence. Watch this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stacey Rambold, he walked out of a Montana state prison this morning.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As she waited for her teacher to face trial, Moralez` mother says Cherise was tormented by bullying and victim blaming. The judge, Todd Baugh, handed down the short sentence saying Moralez looked older than her chronological age. Days after the controversial sentence, the judge said he made a mistake and should`ve sentenced the teacher to at least two years.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you want to grab your pitch forks and your torches towns, people, go after the prosecution.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Prosecutors have appealed Rambold`s sentence to the state Supreme Court, hoping to send him back to prison.
EIGLARSH: Still here, Judge David Young, Lauren Lake, and HLN`s Lynn Berry. Lynn, people are now hoping and praying that this guy screws up because, apparently, he`s not completely free, right? I mean, he`s on probation, right?
LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST: Yes. He`s on probation for 15 years. And we looked at the report, there are about 50 things that he can`t do. You know, he can`t drink alcohol. He can`t go to a casino. He`s got to tell his probation officer if he moves. But there`s one thing that`s not on there and that`s a jail cell. And this is a guy that raped a 14-year-old girl and he spent 30 days in jail and that`s why people are furious.
EIGLARSH: Lauren Lake, are you furious?
LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY: Yes. And the girl is dead. OK? That`s what we can`t -- you know, this is a situation where this man has affected this young girl`s life in such a way where she couldn`t even handle the backlash and killed herself. And now, he walks free. Ultimately, I`m not only angry at that, I`m angry at the judge`s reasoning behind that sentence.
I can`t get past this point that he made when he says, well, it`s not the kind of beat up rape. What are you talking about? Beat up rape. I`ll tell you what kind of rape it is. It`s rape of a child. And I think that is truly disgusting, inappropriate, and unacceptable on so many levels that we are not protecting our young girls from grown men.
But you bet my bottom dollar, he`ll be back there because he couldn`t even get through the deferred sentencing program without violating that. Oh, I`m sorry --
EIGLARSH: How do you really feel, Lauren?
EIGLARSH: Let me go to Samantha and then Judge Young. Samantha, his comments about she was just as in control of the situation as he was.
SCHACHER: Makes -- it boils my blood. And to Lauren`s point. That`s the thing. First of all, there`s no justice for Cherise. And what is also infuriating, as Lauren suggested, what kind of precedent does this set to other victims out there who may be contemplating coming forward but now they have to think, huh, is the judge going to think that I asked for it? Is my rapist going to get a light sentence? I mean, this is a travesty.
EIGLARSH: Well, let me ask Judge Young. Let`s say we`re back down in Miami. You`re still on the bench. I come in front of you. Somehow, I`m representing this guy and I passionately plea to you, look, he`s already lost his job, he suffered enough. What are you going to do with this one, Dave?
JUDGE DAVID YOUNG, FORMER CRIMINAL COURT JUDGE: Well, first of all, we must not forget that there`s an appeal with the Supreme Court of Montana. And I can say -- 99 percent they`re going to reverse the sentence and I guarantee for my friends on the panel, you`ll be very happy to know that this idiot is going to go back into jail. Now, should the same judge --
EIGLARSH: Wait, David, hold on.
EIGLARSH: Stop one second. David, how is he going back? Let me ask you this. Obviously, there`s a two-year minimum mandatory, but the prosecutors, just so we`re clear now. I think the guy should`ve gotten a lot more time, but legally, the prosecutors waived that two years, put him into a sexual abuse -- some type of program, then he violated. So, didn`t the prosecutors waive the two-year minimum mandatory then allowing the judge --
YOUNG: No, not at all.
EIGLARSH: No? No?
YOUNG: No, not at all.
EIGLARSH: Tell me.
YOUNG: No, because when they put him in the program, everything was off the table. When he violated the program, everything was back on the table. And remember, this asshole (ph) for a judge pardon my French --
YOUNG: -- it is what it is. You know, I can`t make this stuff up. He has problems with his own job and, plus, he`s running for re-election, and I`ve got the tell you, Mark, if I lived in Montana, my ass would be up there and I`d be running against this guy because he has no business being on the bench. He`s a complete disgrace. And as far as I`m concerned, he shouldn`t even be selling shoes to Payless.
EIGLARSH: Yes, Lynn, go.
BERRY: It should be noted he`s running unopposed right now. There are activist groups out there that are calling for someone to run against this guy. He just announced last week that he was running.
EIGLARSH: Let me just say this. We got ahold of the original sentencing document from November 2008. Now, at the top of the page, it`s on page two, you can see that the Judge Baugh tried to change the sentence to two years, but the Department of Corrections was bound by the original sentence. OK?
So, Lauren Lake, I actually have a bigger problem that he tried to change it. His inclination was to give 31 days or whatever he originally gave. He changed it because of public pressure. I have a problem with that probably more so than him giving a sentence so light.
LAKE: This goes to my point, Mark, that I have a problem with the reasoning and thought process of this judge all the way around. I`m not understanding, A, why he doesn`t understand that rape of a child is just as important as the beat-up kind of rape he talked about. Secondly, I don`t think he understands -- I`m sorry, you know I go on and on because I`m mad. Were you trying to cut me off?
EIGLARSH: Judge Young is waving his big gavel. He wants in.
LAKE: Oh, go ahead, Judge.
YOUNG: I`m not going to touch that line. He`s done this before. This is not the first time that this (Inaudible) judge did this before. He had a guy in front of him charged with rape and it was an incest situation. The judge waived the 15-year minimum mandatory and gave him credit time served and he walked out the door.
EIGLARSH: We`ve got to hold it right there. Love the passion. More right after this.
EIGLARSH: I`m Mark Eiglarsh in for Dr. Drew and I`m back with my co- host, Samantha Schacher and Judge David Young, Lauren Lake, and Lynn Berry.
All right. We`re talking about the admitted rapist who served only 31 days for sexually assaulting his 14-year-old student, OK? Now, Aristotle defined justice as like cases being treated alike. I want to go around the horn here and ask all of you based on your knowledge of similarly situated cases, right, because every case is different.
But there is a lot of precedent for this type of thing. I`m going to start with you, Lynn. What is the appropriate sentence if you`re the judge in this case?
BERRY: Well, listen, I`m going to go with legally. There is a two- year mandatory minimum and that is what the Judge Baugh said was his mistake. The Supreme Court has an opportunity to right the original wrong, which is that this guy should`ve never gotten a plea deal. He should have never gotten the opportunity to just go and say, OK, I`ll go into a program and that`s what he violated.
Personally, I think that this guy should spend years and years and years in prison, convicted, rapist of a child should not be walking the streets.
EIGLARSH: Well, Judge Young, let`s factor into the fact that she did kill herself as a direct result of the action. I`m not trying to influence your number, but I want to know, if you`re the judge in this case, what specifically are you giving him?
YOUNG: Well, first of all, you have a teacher and a student. That`s the first concern. The second concern is that the age of the student was 14 years old and the third concern is that because of what this individual did she killed herself.
YOUNG: There`s no mercy here, Mark.
YOUNG: He deserved the maximum --
EIGLARSH: Give me a number.
YOUNG: Twenty years.
EIGLARSH: OK. Lauren Lake -
YOUNG: Statutory maximum, 20 years.
EIGLARSH: Let me ask you this, Lauren, does it matter that he didn`t have a ski mask and get her in the alley way versus having what this judge found was a relationship where she knew what she was doing.
LAKE: No, that doesn`t matter. Mark, when I think back to being a young girl in school, I had a crush on several of my teachers. What would I have done if they would have turned around and actually acted on that crush? I would have been overwhelmed. This young girl was not ready for a relationship with a grown man. He`s wrong and you know what --
EIGLARSH: Give me your number, judge.
LAKE: The maximum! Get to jail, go directly to jail, don`t pass go, no $200. Take him to jail.
SCHACHER: I agree.
EIGLARSH: Samantha, the maximum?
SCHACHER: The maximum. Yes, because you know what, this affects people for life. This one --
LAKE: She`s dead, Mark.
SCHACHER: I know. This girl is dead. But you know what, to all the other rapists out there, when you rape someone, it affects them for life.
EIGLARSH: Well, listen, no question --
YOUNG: Fourteen. Fourteen years old.
EIGLARSH: Yes. Well, again, what gets me the most is the death. I mean, this wasn`t --
EIGLARSH: This was directly as a result of what he did. Lynn, what did you want to add?
BERRY: What I wanted to add was the reason that they actually got a plea deal with this guy is because she committed suicide and she couldn`t testify. That`s the sick part about this. She committed suicide. She couldn`t testify, so this guy got a plea deal. It was -- it`s unbelievable.
EIGLARSH: I appreciate it. Thank you very much, panel.
Coming up in just a moment, we`re going to close this out. We`re going to have some final thoughts about this and the Zimmerman matter. We`ll be back right after this. "Last Call" is next.
EIGLARSH: It`s time for "Last Call." And I wanted to read a tweet. And Judge Young, I wanted you to react to the tweet. OK. "How is this sorry excuse for a human still working as a judge? There should be some kind of law against this abomination." Judge Young, your reaction.
YOUNG: I certainly hope that the judicial qualifications of Montana gets rid of this guy or at least the voters will get rid of him at the next election, but it`s a very right wing Republican conservative area. And I`ve got to tell you, Mark, the people in that community love him and he probably will get reelected as sick as that sounds.
EIGLARSH: Now, Lynn, you said earlier that no one`s running against him yet. Why is that?
BERRY: He`s run unopposed for the last few elections. I mean, I think -- and this is no insult to this town. I think this is a smaller town. This guy is in his 70s. He`s been around forever. He probably knows everybody and they just assume he`s going to be their judge forever and ever amen. And their activist groups are trying to change that.
EIGLARSH: Thank you, Lynn. Thank you to Samantha Schacher. Thank you, Judge Drew -- Judge Young and Dr. Drew for letting me sit in your chair tonight.
"HLN After Dark" starts right now.