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What Kind of Parent; Drug-Fueled Sex Games?; Is Amanda Knox A Murderer?; Death Caught On Tape; Bynes Getting Help
Aired September 30, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, warning -- you are about to see a man being run over and killed by a police car. The medical examiner ruled this an accident, but the dead man`s family is not buying it. Our own medical examiner Bill Lloyd is here with his take.
Plus, a 4-year-old boy found with a heroin needle police say injected by his own father.
And Amanda Knox on trial again.
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening.
My co-host Jenny Hutt, attorney and Sirius XM host.
And coming up, Jenny, we`ve got the dash cam of a man being run over. There it is. It is difficult to look at. The dead man`s family is not buying it, but first up, we`ve got a father accused of -- here we go, guys -- trying to kill his 4-year-old son by injecting him with heroin. Despicable behavior --
JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: There`s so many things wrong with that.
PINSKY: So many things, if you read the police report, I think it`s the medical examiner report, I saw, he injected him intramuscularly, like in the hip, or the buttock a few times, to put him asleep, and then went for the neck, apparently, this all resulted from a messy divorce. Ultimately this is an all-too common tale.
Take a look at this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are treating this as a possible assault, so under the assumption that maybe someone else injected the 4-year-old with heroin.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police believe he injected his own son with a potential lethal dose of heroin.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is where a young mom came home to find her husband and son unconscious.
UNIDENTIFEID MALE: Kids to be growing up in a house with heroin in general, and then he gets overdosed? It`s like, it`s kind of sick.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Supposedly this happened on the day the divorce with the boy`s mother was supposed to be finalized.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Neighbors say the young boy didn`t play with many kids and his parents were just as elusive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A danger to the child and danger to himself as well.
PINSKY: Joining us is Mike Eiglarsh, attorney at speaktomark.com, HLN`s Lynn Berry, Loni Coombs, former prosecutor, author of "You`re Perfect and Other Lies Parents Tell". And Brian Copeland, talk show host on KGO Radio in San Francisco, author of "Not a Genuine Black Man."
Lynn, I want to go out to you first and give us the latest on what`s going on here.
LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST: It`s really just unimaginable. You have cops in the business for 35 years that said, I`d absolutely never even heard anything like this. You`ve got this guy. It`s the day this guy`s divorce is supposed to be final. And part of the custody agreement was that he would have to submit drug testing.
And here you have a guy, who is getting at his wife the way that is the most unimaginable, by using what she hated most about him, to try and kill his own son.
PINSKY: Yes, I think you`re exactly right. That`s sort of the psychology, the twisted psychology. Brian, did you want to say something about this?
BRIAN COPELAND, KGO RADIO: Oh, absolutely. The first thing I thought, let me preface this by saying, obviously, the father is sick and evil, but the wife knew -- the mother of this child knew that he was an addict. So, who leaves your 4-year-old alone with an addict?
BERRY: I agree with you on that, but she had not known until this happened that he had been using again. That is why she was part of the custody agreement was that he was going to have to have drug testing. That was part of the agreement.
COPELAND: But the fact that the custody agreement said he had to have drug testing means she knew or thought or suspected that he was using drugs, otherwise it would be a condition. Again, she couldn`t have foreseen this, because this is so completely off the charts, but who leaves --
PINSKY: You`re right is who leaves the 4-year-old with a drug addict, and, Jenny, I know you`re trying to ring in here. There`s a message for anybody that`s involved with people with heroin or opiate addiction. If they are not deeply involved with treatment on a regular base throughout every day for several years after they stop using, they`re using or they`re on some kind of replacement medication, when they`re still on potentially in harm`s way.
They need to be -- they`re sick, they`re not well, you wouldn`t leave your child, Jenny, with somebody who`s in the bed, unable to get on the bed because they`re so sick. It`s the same kind of thing.
HUTT: Of course. Of course, I wouldn`t, but I also think that to take the leap that this sort of thing might occur is over the top. I mean, yes, negligence, protecting the kid, of course you don`t leave your child in that environment. But no one thinks that the father this kid`s dad is going to try to kill him with heroin.
HUTT: That`s just, as Lynn said, unimaginable.
COPELAND: So off the charts.
PINSKY: You`re right. And, Mark, I have plenty of addicts who are now looking at this and going, look, I was a mess, I was a severe addict, I would never have done something like this. This is something more, (a), and, (b), is Brian on to something to holding the mom responsible in some way?
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Well, it depends on what she knows. Based on what I know, she didn`t have any reason to believe, number one, that he was still using. Listen, a lot of people finally give drugs and alcohol --
EIGALRSH: -- and are able to be on the road of recovery. And heroin, as you know. But they have to be in a special program, they have been to be going to meetings. There`s no evidence necessarily that this guy did.
But I don`t know that she knew that. And so, Brian, I don`t know that I would hold her accountable or responsible. He`s a parent. He has a right to see the kid, assuming he wasn`t using drugs, and that was apparently what the record revealed.
BERRY: He had drug abuse issues, but heroin is another level she may not have known.
COPELAND: And the fact of the matter is she knew that he used drugs and she had some concerns. If she didn`t have concerns, she would have not insisted the drug testing be a condition of visitation --
PINSKY: I think that`s right.
COPELAND: Why is this an issue if she had no qualms or suspicions?
EIGLARSH: Well, because relapse is part of recovery. That can happen for somebody who`s been sober six months. That`s` something that could always just be --
COPELAND: Six years.
EIGLARSH: I want we don`t know the nitty-gritty facts.
PINSKY: All right. You`re right, Mark. I want to give Loni some room to get in here. We have some funny delays going on tonight.
Poor Loni, we`re rolling over you. Go ahead, Loni.
LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, I want to give the mom some credit here. Look, she said I divorced this person because of his addiction and she moved away to a different state, trying to get to a safer environment. She was only back for a job interview.
The question I do have is that the police went into the location after obviously, you know, they came to the location and they did find more syringes, more drugs and cash. I don`t know if those things were easily seen, where the mother should have been able to see them before she left the child there with him.
Let`s talk about, just the nitty-gritty, she`s trying to get to a interview.
EIGLARSH: Listen, this is not about her, Drew.
COOMBS: Right, right.
EIGLARSH: I don`t like that the focus is on her in the blame game.
EIGLARSH: This guy committed an abhorrent act, so much so, there`s a very short list of people I wouldn`t consider defending, he`s at the top of the list.
PINSKY: Hold on a second. Hold on a second. There`s somebody that mark will not defend? You have to peel me off the floor here. This is the guy?
EIGLARSH: Because he injected his 4-year-old, Drew. It sickens me.
PINSKY: I`m with you. Listen, there`s a lot of stuff that sickens me. You always drill into my head that everyone is entitled to a defense.
EIGLARSH: They are, just not by Mark Eiglarsh. Not just by me.
COPELAND: The fact of the matter is this guy will never draw another breath of fresh air, another breath of air as a free man ever again. Everybody agrees what he did is evil and abhorrent. So the case, you know, let`s look at some of the other factors. That`s why I was surprised about the mom trusting him with this child. That`s all.
PINSKY: I agree.
Jenny, finish me up.
BERRY: Dr. Drew, real quick, just to note this 4-year-old boy, they don`t know how long-term damage this will be, because they don`t know whether he`s done this before.
PINSKY: You`re right.
HUTT: Yes, I was just going to go to what Mark has said. It takes a special kind of disgusting to try to hurt your own child as a way to get back at your spouse.
PINSKY: You`re right. I`m being a little polemical here. But that`s not the run of the mill drug addict by any means at all. That`s something much more. We`re going to talk about it with the behavior bureau what drives a father to kill his children rather than lose them in a divorce, or at such angry at his wife that they had to something heinous like this. Behavior bureau again.
And later, Amanda Knox speaking on about her murder trial, her sex life, and why she can`t stop crying.
Back in a moment.
PINSKY: Time for the behavior bureau. My co-host Jenny Hutt.
We`ve been talking about a father -- I use the term choking on it a bit. He injects himself and his own son with a deadly, potentially deadly dose of heroin. They both have survived. And now, the father faces attempted murder charges.
Joining us now, psychologist, family therapist Wendy Schwartz, criminologist Casey Jordan, host of "Wives with Knives" on Investigation Discovery, clinical and forensic psychologist Cheryl Arutt, and the human lie detector, Janine Driver. She consulted with the FBI, the CIA, and the Bureau of Alcohol and Tobacco and Firearms. She is the author of "You Can`t Lie to Me."
Casey, I said something to my producing staff. And they sort of went, that`s surprising. This is not a story about heroin. This is a story about malignant narcissism or something on that degree. Would you agree?
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Yes, and it manifests itself on revenge. And, Dr. Drew, I`ve seen a lot of these cases in the last decade or so. Twenty years ago, there was a man, Brian Stewart, who injected his four- year-old son with HIV tainted blood so that he could get out paying child support.
JORDAN: The great news is that young man is still alive today, now in his early 20s, but there`s almost no limits that will people will go to get back at the wife, the soon-to-be ex-wife, or the ex-wife, and harming the child is, I agree with Jenny, a whole different live of trying to hurt someone. Not hurt them, but hurt the thing they love the most, the child. And that really is a level of psychopathy that we need to look at.
PINSKY: And, Cheryl, take people through that again, what Casey is talking about, what has to go on in one`s brain in order to be able to do something like this to a child in order to get back at a spouse.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To your child.
CHERY ARUTT, PSYCHOLOGIST: Exactly, your child. We are talking about someone with malignant narcissism, where they are looking at that child not as a separate being, or a person who they love or a separate entity, but as an extension of themselves and as a chess piece on a board that this is a way to accomplish the goal of hurting the other person as much as possible.
So, the more the mother or the parent loves that child -- the more they can see it as an instrument to get back at revenge to hurt the parent. They`re not even looking at empathy or humanity or what they`re doing to their own child. It`s shocking.
JANINE DRIVER, HUMAN LIE DETECTOR: Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: Janine, go ahead and I`ll let you talk in a second. But also that people, to Brian I think used the term "evil" as well as sick here. Go ahead.
DRIVER: Dr. Drew, Josh Powell, you may remember this case, too, 2009, Susan Powell goes missing, supposedly the husband took the two boys in the middle of the winter out camping, and she never reappeared, right? He says he comes home and the wife is missing. And eventually, the custody is taken away.
By the time they`re 5 and 7, he has a supervised visit, out in the state of Washington, he takes them from a social worker, puts them in the house, blows up the house, light them in fire and kills his two boys.
Well, why did he do that if his wife is missing? Get what, Dr. Drew? He moved him and those two boys to Washington, the state of Washington, where Susan Powell`s parents live. I met Susan Powell`s father one time. I was speaking at an event in Seattle, Washington.
It was heart-wrenching for them to have their two little grandsons up the street visiting their lunatic father. He killed them. Why? To punish them are my thoughts.
I`m not a psychologist, but we see this happening all the time in law enforcement.
PINSKY: Wendy, I let you ring in. You`re nodding your head vigorously.
WENDY SCHWARTZ, PSYCHOLOGIST: I think we`re all going crazy, a heartbreaking story. They just need a window, one window of opportunity to go and hurt that child. The fact this father had a history of all the problems that he did. And the fact that moment thought this was OK child care.
But, you know, I always say to my clients, Dr. Drew, if mama is not happy, nobody is happy. The way to get to the mom was to get the dad to hurt the baby, and it`s heartbreaking and frightening that in two seconds this can happen.
PINSKY: You`re so right Wendy.
And, Jenny, it`s interesting. It`s rarely the women that do this, usually it`s men in divorce trying to get back at a spouse, right?
HUTT: Well, I -- listen, I don`t know what that`s about, because thankfully I`m with a man who would never hurt our kids.
But I think about that poor little boy, in bed with his daddy, and the next thing -- it`s just out of control and so outrageous that it makes me physically ill.
PINSKY: And, Casey, I was tilting towards this idea of evil. Why don`t you give your thoughts on this? This is psychopathy. This is missing a part of your brain that makes us human. Is that evil?
JORDAN: I don`t think this particular father was evil. I will agree he`s sick. Probably his mental illness was manifest in drug addiction, because he`s trying to drown his pain.
It doesn`t excuse it in any way -- in any way at all, but I`ve seen evil, and usually evil does not succumb to drug addiction, because it really enjoys the feeling of evil and doesn`t try to kill it.
SCHWARTZ: How did nobody -- that makes me crazy. How did nobody know that there were drugs in the home, that dad had a different type of a behavior, the child`s grooming was on and off. I always believe there are red flags and you just have to pay attention to them.
There was some indication. Someone had to see something -- neighbors, some kind of babysitters. Something else was going on.
PINSKY: Cheryl, finish us out.
ARUTT: I think that the mother was under the impression he had quit, but I think this was a big dangerous situation because of an anniversary reaction of a significant date. This would have been the date their divorce would have been final.
And I wanted to say that one of the toughest things for the kids in these situations is they do survive the attack by the parent, is somehow making sense of the fact that their mother or father could do this to them, and then having to grow up making sense of that and working through it. So, that`s the reverberation that stays long after what happened.
PINSKY: If you let that pain in, I challenge anybody to imagine, put themselves in the position of that child. Let that pain in and imagine what that child is experiencing.
Good panel, guys.
A reminder, tomorrow I will be on "Raising America", speaking of parenting, to talk more about this story. That is at 12:00 p.m. and 4:00 p.m. Eastern, right here on HLN.
Up next, Amanda Knox -- her new trial under way in Italy. Is she going to go back to Italy? Is she going to go back to prison? What`s going on with Amanda? And why is she crying all the time?
After the break.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host Jenny Hutt.
We`re talking about Amanda Knox, who was convicted in Italy in 2009 of having murdered her roommate. Prosecutors said it was a grisly end to drug-fueled sex games.
Knox spent four years in prison in Italy. Her conviction was then overturned. Amanda has come to the U.S. But the case is not over yet. Take a look.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Knox and her ex-boyfriend were convicted, but then cleared in the death of her British roommate.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Knox was convicted of brutally killing Kercher in the villa they shared. That ruling was overturned in 2011, due to lack of evidence.
AMANDA KNOX: Thank you to everyone who has believed in me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In March, Italy`s highest cord ordered the acquittal overturned.
The ordered a new test on a knife found in the kitchen of Amanda Knox`s boyfriend. It`s the same knife that prosecutors say was found with Meredith Kercher`s DNA.
Knox will not be in court for the retrial.
KNOX: I`m afraid to go back there. I don`t want to go back into prison. I mean, I was there for four years.
PINSKY: Mark, Loni, Brian, Lynn are all back with us.
Lynn, I`m going to go out to you again to give us the latest?
BERRY: Well, here -- this is a case that the supreme court said we`re sending back to an appeals court to have this retried because of the DNA evidence possibly on a knife. They say that supports their initial argument that this was some sex-filled game. Think "50 Shades of Grey" with some marijuana thrown in, and it is kinds of turning into a circus, because it`s maybe the fourth time you`re seeing this cycle through the justice system, which is completely different than it is here in United States.
Which is why if you`re sitting at home and saying, wait a second, what about double jeopardy. That doesn`t apply in Italy.
PINSKY: Lynn, I find -- and, Jenny, maybe you can back me up on this -- this whole thing about it being a drug-fueled sex game.
PINSKY: Very bizarre.
BERRY: Here`s why. That was initially floated by the prosecution -- go ahead, Jenny.
HUTT: I don`t get -- maybe I`m so Pollyanna, and maybe I`m weird and stunted, I never went through like the sex-fueled crazy games with lots of different of people and someone wound up dead. It just seems totally out there.
PINSKY: Well, first of all, a couple things, a couple of things -- (a), if you did, you probably --
PINSKY: Yes, right. Brian, if you did, or, Jenny, you did, or even, Lynn, if you did -- it probably wasn`t pot, number one. I wouldn`t call that a drug-fueled sex game, number two -- number one.
Number two, the only guy that`s ever come close is my friend Mark. I`ve seen his stuff with the sushi and the parties, and I`m telling you, I`ve seen one of your posts on Facebook.
PINSKY: I know you get into it a bit.
EIGLARSH: Really? That`s what you`re doing? I help you out, I fill in? This is how you repay me? Really?
BERRY: On live television, OK.
PINSKY: It`s so bizarre about what they`re talking about.
EIGLARSH: But who cares about the sex stuff and drug stuff? That`s not the issue. The issue to me always is did she kill the victim or not? That`s the issue -- the motivation, the reason why, doesn`t have to be proven, fodder for your show, all wonderful.
The issue is, did they have proof to prove it sufficiently? And Lord knows it`s gone up, down, maybe up and down again. Who knows?
PINSKY: Mark, let`s start with you. Do you think -- I`m thinking about (a), about the evidence, and (b), what makes a young girl kill another young girl without any antecedent history? I mean, come on. What do you think?
EIGLARSH: Well, first of all, you weren`t there, I wasn`t there. I don`t know what happened. That`s number one.
Number two, a couple things are rather bizarre, if true. They`re alleging that first of all she puts herself on the scene and now later no, no, no. Also, she pointed out someone else who did it, was actually convicted for that lie. That person had nothing to do with this offense. That type of behavior is the stuff that I take exception for.
BERRY: It was also her -- sorry.
COOMBS: You know, I think that Amanda has over and over again come across as insincere and callous to other people`s feelings, somewhat callous to the death of her roommate. Callous to the fact she pointed the finger at this other guy, who had an alibi and wasn`t there. Callous to the fact that she was acting out with her boyfriend in a flippant immature way right after this.
But I think based on the investigation and all of the contamination and all of the problems with the prosecutors, and the way he went so aggressively after this sex-crazed, you know, orgy theory, we`ll never really know the truth. But if you look back at the history, Amanda doesn`t have this sex-crazed history, so it doesn`t maybe sense she would turn into this other person.
But, I`ll tell you, Mark said it doesn`t matter this crazed orgy theory. However, the highest court in Italy, who just send it back down to the appeals court seemed to find something in there and sent it back on the theory that, hey, we think there`s something to this sex-crazed orgy theory, and want to see appellate court to readdress that.
COPELAND: Well, I`m inclined to believe she did it solely because the fact that she implicated somebody else. It was boss at a nightclub she worked at. She initially pointed the finger at him and said he did it. So, innocent people don`t lie. That`s number one.
Number two, from I understand this case will hinge on a particle of human tissue, DNA, that is on a knife that they believe was the murder weapon that was found in the boyfriend`s kitchen. This was not tested the first time around. And so, what it boils down to is if this turns out to be the DNA of the victim, then they`re both guilty and it`s game over. If it turns out not to be the DNA of the victim, then they`re both innocent and game over.
EIGLARSH: Not so fast, Brian. You know they`re going to argue the "C" word, contamination. C`mon now.
COPELAND: Well, but my understanding is one of the reasons that the acquittal was overturned had to do with the certainty of DNA evidence.
PINSKY: Now, I`m going to say something here. Cheryl put something up on Twitter, and then Web site responded. Amanda Knox is getting screwed, she`s innocent, you have a TV show. Tell them.
Lynn, I`m kind of sympathetic to Amanda Knox. Am I buying into something I shouldn`t?
BERRY: Well, of course, you`re sympathetic. She spent four years in prison and came home to the United States, and was hysterically crying on television saying, "Thank you so much for everyone that believed in my innocence".
And just like Mark said, we don`t know what happened, but her behavior soon after the murder, the doing backflips and cartwheels, and kissing her boyfriend outside, and this cherub-faced girl who we learned through the story line of this sex game -- it really revealed this mean girl relationship she had with Meredith Kercher. So it peeled back a few layers, that by the looks of the girl next door you wouldn`t expect.
But, sure, I understand why you feel that way, because you see an American girl in Italy and, you know, you feel bad for her, that she spent four years in prison.
EIGLARSH: I`ve got to say this, Drew.
EIGLARSH: How much of your sympathy and America`s sympathy has to do with what her shell like. If she wasn`t Foxy Knoxy, but Ugly Betty instead, would we throw her back to Italy? I throw it out there rhetorically.
PINSKY: Jenny, finish me up.
HUTT: Yes, I was going to say exactly. And Mark said she`s so pretty, it`s hard to imagine she could do something so heinous. That`s the reality of our society. We can`t grasp that that beautiful would do that.
EIGLARSH: Ted Bundy.
HUTT: Jodi Arias, even Casey. I`m just sayin`.
Got to hold it there. Up there, Amanda Knox faces the human lie detector.
And later, accident or execution -- a man`s final moments captured on video by the very police car that ran him down. Be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I mean, as I was going through all of this, when I cried, it was bad. When I didn`t cry, it was bad. When I smiled, it was bad. When I didn`t smile, it was bad. I have been paralyzed by this kind of scrutiny.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re worried.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I mean, this is affecting my life. And, I mean, I thought this would be over by now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt, and our "Behavior Bureau," Casey Jordan, Wendy Schwartz, Cheryl Arutt, and Janine Driver.
No one gives Amanda a break. Does anyone agree with me on that? Give me a show of hands. Does she get it tough or appropriately -- oh, you guys are brutal. Casey, what do you think?
CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., @DRCHERYLARUTT: What are we raising our hands for? Which side?
PINSKY: Me saying that nobody gives her a break and I think, perhaps, they should. But I want to hear from Casey. Casey is on the fence. Go ahead, Casey.
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Well, just when this case first broke, I was reading the media and I was believing everything I read in the media, and I thought there was a very good chance she was a psychotic or a sociopath. She was guilty. And then, I took the time two summers ago to read every single piece of forensic evidence and became completely convinced that she is innocent.
And that Rudy Guede, the African man who`s already in prison for it, probably acted alone. But since then, just the image that was portrayed in the media in the first few months following that murder has haunted her and will haunt her for the rest of her life. So, I`m not surprised that she`s talking about having posttraumatic stress disorder. She still has this sort of -- hanging over her head. It`s not over.
PINSKY: Yes. I`m seeing Cheryl nod her head. I think that`s right. I mean, to me, Cheryl, there`s no way somebody that`s been through which she`s been through would ever contemplate leaving their homeland and going anywhere at level of somewhere where she`s likely to put back in prison.
ARUTT: She would have to be out of her mind to get on that plane. I don`t think anybody here, if they were in her position, would get on that plane. They don`t have the same kind of rights we have here. They`ve had multiple tries. And this prosecutor is like something out of a spaghetti western, like this rogue cowboy, making it up, the plot line as he goes along.
He`s got such an imagine about these conspiracy theories about sex and violence. And this poor woman has just been eviscerated in the press, and I think Casey makes very good points about what the facts actually say. But as long as this is going on, this can be very hard for Amanda Knox to heal from her PTSD.
PINSKY: And Wendy, don`t you agree -- I`m going to get to Janine in a second, but Wendy, I want to hear from you. Do you agree that because of the sexual innuendo, this rogue prosecutor, as Cheryl called him, was able to evoke, you know, a lot of our discomfort with women that are portrayed that way and we want to act out on them, don`t we?
WENDY SCHWARTZ, PSY.D., PSYCHOLOGIST & FAMILY EXPERT: Listen, this is a wonderful thing for the media to heighten and show that, you know, there`s all the drugs and the sex and the night life and scary things that have happened. The frightening thing is this girl is so traumatized that, you know, even if she did want to go and clear her name, she can`t. The horrific trauma that she experienced, even in jail, I don`t know if she did it or if she didn`t do it.
But what I am concerned about now is not that she`s a flight risk, but that she`s also going to hurt herself. She`s really fragile.
PINSKY: Oh, that`s really interesting. I hadn`t even thought about that.
SCHWARTZ: The first thought I thought is somebody better be watching her. I`m really concerned.
PINSKY: You`re right. Now, listen, Janine, personally, I`m starting with what Casey said. I like what Casey said so far tonight, but I`m going to show you some footage of Amanda that I want you to evaluate. Now, she told -- despite being free, she still feels trapped. And I want you to listen to what she told ABC`s "Good Morning America."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I had panic attacks and just broke down. I couldn`t breathe. I thought I was OK, I was home, and I wasn`t. I was so angry, and I was so sad.
I know that my family was expecting the old Amanda back, which is the old Amanda back, and I`m not quite as chirpy anymore.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, Janine, I see some complex stuff there on that footage. What do you see?
JANINE DRIVER, HUMAN LIE DETECTOR: Well, I see (INAUDIBLE) surprise. Her eyebrows go up where she`s surprised that she has this fear and anxiety. We see her looking down right, which is deep emotions. You know, if we can go back a little to the interview that she did with Diane Sawyer, I don`t know if you remember that, but there was the seesaw where we had a slow blink rate, which is indicative of someone typically telling the truth.
When we increase stress and anxiety with deception, our blink rate increases. She leaked contempt when she was told people were calling her the she-devil with an angel face. Her posture was relaxed with that initial interview, but Dr. Drew, the hot spots were there, too. When asked by Diane Sawyer, OK, were you the person to kill her, did you kill her?
She said no and shook her head no, but then Diane Sawyer had asked, all right, were you there when she was killed? She says no, shakes her head yes. So, Amanda Knox, says no, I was not there, shakes her head yes. Also, Amanda Knox, when asked by Diana Sawyer, anything else you didn`t tell the police?
There`s an extra beat of silence that breaks her baseline behavior, that extra beat is a hot spot and is a deep swallow which indicates the increase in stress and anxiety. I think your last guest hit the nail on the head. Truthful people don`t lie. We don`t send you down a foxhole.
If someone says Janine, did you kill your husband, and I don`t know say, no, but I know Dr. Drew, -- special videotaped message, maybe he`s the guy that did it. We don`t do that. An innocent person simply tells the truth. PINSKY: Do we have that footage, control? Do we have that Diane -- we don`t have that. Do we have any of that? Don`t have that.
ARUTT: -- are we making assumptions about she was interrogated, though? She was interrogated under incredible degrees of pressure and intimidation, and we really don`t know the context of how that initial thing she said to the police -- what was going on.
PINSKY: You`re right, Cheryl, but she`s talking about a casual, not a casual interview, but an interview with Diane Sawyer that sort of -- you know, when she`s in somewhat more in control. Janine, one think I saw there in that footage we did show was I saw a girl that looked sort of undernourished and really stressed out like spinning like a top like she really don`t know what was going on, right?
DRIVER: You`re right. She looked like a beat dog. You know, she looked like an almost like a battered woman. She looked like her soul has been like taken from here.
PINSKY: I`m going to leave it at that. I`m going to take a page from Janine`s interpretation and Casey`s and I`m going to still say, Amanda Knox, I`m very sympathetic. We`ll see hat happened.
Up next -- thank you, panel -- this man you see running wound up dead beneath a two-ton police car, all caught on tape. So, why does the medical examiner say there is no evidence?
And later, later on, we`re going to take on the story of actress, Amanda Bynes. She left one treatment center. She has entered another. We`re going to talk about what that means, and we`ll be right back.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt, and Casey Jordan, Mark Eiglarsh, and Loni Coombs. And again, we`re reissuing this is warming. This is a story that has some disturbing images. We`re going to be watching it a few seconds here, the dash cam video of Florida police as they pursue a 38-year-old father for not wearing his seat belt.
The man flees, trips and then hit by a 4,000-pound police car. A medical examiner determined Marlin Brown (ph) died from what is called mechanical asphyxiation, that his death was an accident. But his family said it was vehicular manslaughter and they have filed a complaint. Joining us on the phone is our own medical examiner, Dr. Bill Lloyd. Bill, let`s explain mechanical asphyxia. Basically, the car landed on him and that`s that.
DR. BILL LLOYD, MEDICAL EXAMINER: That`s right. When you asphyxiate, you die from not being able to breathe. So, if you choke on food or a severe asthma attack, that`s asphyxia that due to a medical problem. But in this case, it`s because the body was unable to breathe, open the ribcage, and bringing fresh air, mostly because there was a motor vehicle parked on top of Marlin Brown`s chest.
PINSKY: Why couldn`t they get the car off of him? Even if they drove it off of him, it`s hard to understand. I guess they must have been gone down an embankment or something? The medical examiner also revealed -- office released a statement stating, quote, "Marlin Brown slipped and fell, and then the police care came to a stop on top of him. There was no evidence Brown was struck by the vehicle," meaning -- I don`t know. I can`t quite -- what difference does that make, really?
But at press conference, a funeral director that prepared Brown`s body said he had multiple lacerations to his face and body again suggesting some kind of contact and that his neck was, so to speak, loose. Dr. Lloyd, help us understand if that makes sense to you or if that means something different than what the medical examiner said.
LLOYD: Yes. The mortician provided lots of information, the fella, James Cusack (ph) reported that it was apparent to him that Marlin Brown`s neck was probably broken and he also identified fractures in the arm and in the leg. This came when trying to embalm Marlin Brown, giving chemicals so the body doesn`t decompose so you can have a decent funeral.
The mortician injects the body with a large-boar needle called a trocar, and they go to several different anatomic landmarks in the body to insert the needle, withdraw fluid, and to add the embalming solution. But in several areas, he was not able to pass the trocar, indicating to Mr. Cusack that there were more serious injuries there than other people knew about. But at the time of the embalming, there has been no autopsy report.
JENNY HUTT, ATTORNEY: This is just --
PINSKY: Jenny, what`s that?
HUTT: This is just -- Dr. Drew, this is just disgusting. And furthermore, this story is so horrific, also because I feel like this is a nightmare that all of us had. How many of us have had these dreams that a car is chasing us? And then, you wake up. This poor guy, that family should be angry.
LLOYD: Yes. But the added dimension is this happened in George Zimmerman`s backyard. The same people that did the autopsy on Trayvon Martin did the autopsy On Marlin Brown.
PINSKY: Do any of my attorney friends here have a reaction to this case? We all just shake our head. Casey, want to ring in on this?
JORDAN: I think it`s kind of important to know that the family was paid $550,000 by the police department, and the officer was fired for violating policy. A grand jury --
JORDAN: -- decided not to indict the officer. OK. It doesn`t him back, but the real question is here, was there a cover-up to protect the liability of the police department? I mean, that`s really the question.
PINSKY: Quickly to Mark and then Loni. Got to keep moving here.
PINSKY: I get you. Mark?
MARK EIGLARSH, SPEAKTOMARK.COM: OK. I don`t have all the facts. I did hear, however, from the attorney for the police officer who said and don`t kill the messenger, but it`s important to add this to the mix that the reason why the non-seat belt wearing decedent slipped is the same reason why the vehicle could not come to a complete stop, because the ground was wet.
The question is whether what he did was a criminal act, meaning does it rise to the level of recklessness and the prosecutors may have found, well, he was negligent. He probably violated policy, but it doesn`t rise to the level of a criminal case. Don`t kill the messenger.
PINSKY: All right. Got to take a break. Loni, I`ll get to you after the break.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. We`ve been discussing a Florida man, Marlin Brown, whose death was caught on a police dash cam video. That man`s family released the video in hopes that criminal charges filed against the officer who ran over him would be charged. They`ve also filed a complaint against the medical examiner`s office that determined his death was an accident.
Loni, I wanted to hear from you. I`m sorry I didn`t get a chance for you to weigh in during that last break. Go ahead.
LONI COOMBS, ATTORNEY: Yes, you know, Mark was right. The question is here, was there negligence or was it reckless? And when you watch that videotape, I am sorry, it is very clear this is reckless behavior. What you have is a probationary rookie officer following two other police cars who happen to be able to pull over to the side very easily when the suspect runs into the grass.
And this rookie cop who apparently wants to prove himself just blasts right by them through that grass going way much faster than he should have and hit this guy. I don`t care whether the guy was down on the ground when he hit or whether he was trying to get up -- this was reckless action by this officer and ended up killing this person.
Now, I`m a prosecutor. I am the first one to say if a criminal ends up getting hurt while they`re committing a crime, too bad, so sad, you don`t deserve one penny for that. But that`s not the situation. This guy didn`t have his seatbelt on. He`s running. He`s not in the act of (INAUDIBLE) always running. He`s not pulling a gun. Those police officers needed to exert some care and caution in this police pursuit.
This is what we see all the time. These innocent people or independent people getting hurt from these police pursuits. That`s why his supervisor fired him the moment he saw that videotape. He knew that this officer was acting recklessly in his line of duty.
PINSKY: Yes. I think -- Mark, I think Loni articulated what in a very clear fashion what pretty much everyone feels when they look at that video. You practiced law in Florida, Mark, right? And this footage we`re looking at is basically in the backyard of where the Zimmerman disaster went down.
Our own Danine Manette tweeted something. Now, I have lots of friends in Florida. My tongue is deeply embedded in my cheek when she tweets to me, "can we please approve Florida`s petition to secede from the union?"
EIGLARSH: Oh, a little harsh.
EIGLARSH: This could happen anywhere. This could happen anywhere.
JORDAN: It could happen anywhere.
PINSKY: Jenny, what do you think?
JORDAN: But don`t run from the cops. That really is the key here. Just don`t run from the police, and he would be alive today.
HUTT: Listen, I do feel for Mark Eiglarsh because that is his hometown. And, so, I`m sorry, Mark, but this is a bit of a suspect situation.
PINSKY: Guys, thank you.
EIGLARSH: -- he shouldn`t have died.
PINSKY: Loni articulated it nicely, but Casey`s point will have the last word as we go to the "Last Call."
PINSKY: It is time for the "Last Call." Back with Jenny Hutt and Casey Jordan. Now, we`re getting an idea of what`s going on with Amanda Bynes since her mother was granted conservatorship over this last summer. According to a report in "People" magazine, Amanda described having felt scared while receiving psychiatric treatment at UCLA.
And psych wards can be a little intense. I can understand. She would be frightened. She`s a young woman. Since apparently, she is now transferred to a private facility in Malibu. I looked it up online. She claims to be getting one-on-one treatment there. It`s a dual diagnosis program. The family lawyer says she`s making great strides towards recovery.
Casey, explain the LPS conservatorship, what that is, and why it was so important to Amanda`s, frankly, her survival and the fact that she`s getting better now.
JORDAN: It`s a relatively hard thing to get. There are people who go for financial conservatorship and personal conservatorship. And for her mother to get personal says that she is really in a deep pit, unable to make decisions for herself, take care of herself.
And frankly, for somebody who has psychiatric issues and/or addiction issues, it is usually the very best thing that can that happen, because then their conservator, in this case, Amanda`s mother, can do the best thing for them that they`re unable to do. We usually see it with demented people, people who have Alzheimer`s. I think that is indicative of how far gone Amanda was before her mother got her to check herself in.
PINSKY: I think that`s exactly -- Jenny, you get that? Do you get how that picture works? It`s something when people --
HUTT: I do get that, but Dr. Drew, what concerns me, and maybe you can shed light on this is, how does this happen at that age? How does this happen to a 20-something-year-old?
PINSKY: Well, that`s when it happens. Listen, that`s when it starts to happen, that 18 to 25 window. People get major psychiatric -- and people lose insight. Got to go. "HLN After Dark" right now.