Return to Transcripts main page


Examination And Analysis Of The First Full Day Of The Government Shutdown

Aired October 1, 2013 - 21:00   ET



PIERS MORGAN, CNN HOST: This is PIERS MORGAN LIVE. Welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world. I want to welcome my studio audience.

Tonight, government shutdown -


MORGAN: On this first full day of the government shutdown, I'll talk to White House press secretary, Jay Carney, plus two congressmen right in the middle of things. I've also got a power panel of experts, Bill Kristol, Marc Lamont Hill, Grover Norquist and Carol Roth ready to answer your questions about the shutdown, Obamacare and what it good it'll cost you. Join the conversation using the hash tag on Twitter PML.

Tonight, he was the man never afraid to express his opinions. He's pulling right here to explode with fury. Tonight, Jesse Ventura on the shutdown, Obamacare and why he's sure that you don't know the real story of the assassination of President Kennedy. I want to begin though with the shutdown showdown, to President Obama and House Speaker John Boehner, the House spending tonight to pass bills intended to fund government programs one by one and what the White House calls piecemeal fashion, the President had promised vetoes.

The question for White House Press Secretary, Jay Carney, what will it take for Washington to now make a deal?

Jay Carney, welcome to the show. Tell me where we are with all of these? Is it inevitable that you will have to sit down, your man, the President and Speaker Boehner and just thrash out a deal?

JAY CARNEY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Well, Piers, what is inevitable is that Congress has the responsibility to fund the government, to pass bills, they keep the government open. And Congress has the responsibility to pass the bill, to raise the debt ceiling so that the United States does not for the first time in its history default on its obligations.

You know the President's position is clear. He has been all year and continues to be eager and willing to sit down with lawmakers of both parties to work out a longer, broader compromise that funds our priorities, invest in our future and reduces our deficit continuing the work that he's done since he took office in reducing the deficit by more than half.

But what he won't do is negotiate under threat of shutdown or threat of default. You know the Republicans are engaging and their practice here that's bad for the economy, bad for the middle class and they're doing it all because they want to, you know, get this political victory of undermining or defunding or dismantling Obamacare, something they have failed to do legislatively, they failed to do through the Supreme Court, they failed to do when we had a national election last November. You know, Obamacare, the Affordable Care Act is the law is providing benefits to millions of Americans and --

MORGAN: And let's assume -- let's assume Jay --

CARNEY: -- hold on, but --

MORGAN: Right.

CARNEY: -- it's providing benefits to millions of Americans and as you know today, a new phase is open where millions more Americans will get those benefits.

MORGAN: But let's see, I'm not really disputing anything you just said, I'm kind of on your side of it, but and it's a big but, the government is shut down. So at some point there has to be a form of negotiation whatever form that takes and when I spoke to President Bill Clinton last week and former Speaker obviously Newt Gingrich, they both said that when they went through the last shutdown, they talked every single day, wrestling with all the complexities of his current (ph) situation to try and get to a point of a agreement.

Why is that not happening between the President and John Boehner?

CARNEY: Well, first of all, as the President said he would, he spoke with the Speaker of the House and said he would continue to have conversations with leaders in Congress in the days ahead.

What is fundamentally different about 1995 and 2013 and I remember because I was in this room covering it as a reporter, I -- is that the Republicans then, whether you agreed with or didn't agree with their strategy and whether or not it ended up hurting them politically, you know, had a coherence to what they were arguing. They wanted to force the president then, Bill Clinton to reduce spending more.

And so what they were arguing went to the heart of what funding the government is about, budget priorities. What we see now is Republicans they've abandoned their insistence that we deal with our budget issues when the President put on the table a budget that reduces the deficit and even addresses entitlement reforms that they demand and they ignored that.

Now they're making this about, you know, getting a political scalp which is somehow, you know, defunding or dismantling or disrupting the implementation of the Affordable Care Act the President won't do that.

MORGAN: If Speaker Boehner --

CARNEY: The President won't do that.

MORGAN: Is Speaker Boehner thought, if he can't get any kind of concession on the defunding of any part of Obamacare or any change at all to appease the Tea Party renegades who are driving all these, his position becomes untenable. Does that sink (ph) the White House, the -- Speaker Boehner's --

CARNEY: No, no, no. Piers, look.

MORGAN: -- vision which it back plays (ph)?

CARNEY: It is -- we are agnostic when it comes to how Republicans pick their leaders in Congress and the President actually has a good relationship with and likes and enjoys John Boehner's company. But the fact is this can't be about his job security. I mean, is that what the message is to the American people? Sorry, the government shutdown, sorry we made a fault because of internal politics and, you know, the future of the Speaker, that can't be what it's about it.

And honestly, as the President said the other day in an interview that he believes that if Speaker of the House did the right thing and put a clean bill on the floor that had already passed the Senate and did it on the House, it would get a majority of members of the House of Representatives including Republicans who day by day are now saying this is what they want and John Boehner would be strengthened by it.

MORGAN: OK, so I mean Jay, you're a smart guy as you just said you've been in the reporter's shoes covering this very eventuality back in the mid '90s.

How does this play out? How does this end?

CARNEY: Well, first of all I'd say, "We're making no demands." The President has asked for nothing in return for Congress funding the government or in return, you know, if signing the bill that would fund the government or in return for signing the bill it would raise a debt ceiling.

The only party to these discussions that have -- that has attached political demands or any kind of demands are the Republicans. So the President is not asking for anything and, you know, it's up to the leaders of the Republican Party in the end to make a decision to adopt a different strategy that reopens the government and allows them to raise the debt ceiling responsibly.

And then we can continue to debate and discuss and even fight over our priorities but not holding the American people hostage or holding the economy hostage.

MORGAN: Jay Carney, good to talk to you. Thank you very much.

CARNEY: Piers, thank you.

MORGAN: The President says he's not making demands but he definitely has some tough talk Republicans today in his (inaudible) remarks (ph). Listen to this.


BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They've shutdown the government over an ideological crusade to deny affordable health insurance to millions of Americans. In other words, they demanded ransom just for doing their job.


MORGAN: Strong words. And joining me now is Congressman James Lankford, he's the Chairman of the House Republican Policy Committee. Welcome to you, Congressman.


MORGAN: I mean he's got a point, hasn't he the President. Obamacare is law, he's been reelected on the basis of Obamacare being the main pillar of his first tenure.

What is the big problem here? Why can't Republicans just see, sense, realize his law, and move on?

LANKFORD: Sure, it's the same reason that we were elected as well. As a lot of folks are talking when President was elected so we were elected as well to be able to represent our constituents. Our constituents were asking legitimate questions if you can pull up other speeches from the President where he said, "Now, I'm willing to talk about changes and it's not perfect and there are some issues with it." But then he never actually finishes out and says, "And here's what those will be." We're recommending a couple of those.

We've actually sit in front the President, OK, here are two issues that are pretty simple. One is members of Congress and the White House are exempted from the rules of Obamacare, we don't think that's right. If the law is so great for the American people, it should also part (ph) of the White House in the Congress. And the second thing is there are going to be issues. People are going to make mistakes in this very first year of Obamacare and we don't want them to have penalties come on them because they've made mistakes, because they chose not to get in it. All of these questions are coming up as it goes to the first year. We want to say they should be exempted. Same thing that is already given to businesses we don't think that's -- all --

MORGAN: Right. But all these things --

LANKFORD: -- of that is irrational.

MORGAN: Yes, but, Congressman, all these things are just a normal run of the mill (ph) negotiation stuff you would have over things like Obamacare. It shouldn't --


MORGAN: -- shutdown the government, that's the point. I mean, Congress, according to the latest CNN ORC Poll, how is Congress handling its job? Approve 10 percent, disapprove 87 percent. This is going to be quite shocking, I hope, to you. Brussel sprouts, root canals, colonoscopies, and headlights all currently have higher approval ratings than the United States Congress.

LANKFORD: I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised. I have to say it, that if you say --

MORGAN: You're not surprised that headlights --

LANKFORD: No, of course. No --

MORGAN: -- and colonoscopies have higher ratings than you?

LANKFORD: Four years ago, I was just a normal American citizen in my area in Oklahoma City and many people came to me and said, "People like you and people like being around you and you're doing good work here." Why would you want to run for Congress as soon as you're elected and then you're like you're the problem. So one day you're a normal citizen and the next day you're people and causing the problems and issues, that's an (inaudible).

When someone says, "What do you think about Congress?" You always think about the opposing party, you always think just by nature. Republicans were asked what do you think about Congress they think about some Democrat they don't like. Democrats are asked about, they think about some Republican they don't like and just the fault to that as human nature and people are frustrated they have to think about Congress.

Our proposal that we put out last time, we think it's pretty reasonable. And in fact, we just said --

MORGAN: The problem is though, Congressman, absolutely --

LANKFORD: -- let's go to the conference, let's get face to face and negotiate.

MORGAN: -- very, very few people in the Western world agree with you that it's reasonable. So let's get our question here from --

LANKFORD: Well, let's ask and see if you should negotiate face to face in what people say because the last proposal we put out is should the House and Senate face to face sit down and negotiate get an answer to that because that's the last thing that we put on the table and the Senate said no.

MORGAN: Well that's just -- let me get to our question from the audience. Sidd Jah (ph), he has a question specifically for you, Congressman. Sidd?

SIDD JAH: Congressman, my name is Sidd Jah (ph). I have a question regarding Congress pay. Do you think it's fair that Congress is going to continue to get paid while more than 800,000 government employees are furloughed? LANKFORD: OK, that's a great question. There are about 17 to 20 or so depending on how you account at different government shutdowns that have happened in the last 30 years. Every single time there was a government shutdown whether it was during the Reagan Administration and Tip O'Neill shut down the government or whether it was in the Clinton Administration as Newt Gingrinch or now, everyone of those federal employees were paid back. All of them were made whole, I would much assume that that would happen as well. The members of --

MORGAN: How much --

LANKFORD: -- go ahead.

MORGAN: How much are you being paid say for this week, Congressman?

LANKFORD: I don't break it down. We're actually paid in --

MORGAN: Well, let me help you. Let me help you.

LANKFORD: OK. You break it down, good for you.

MORGAN: Yeah. You are paid, $3,346 a week, the average work --


MORGAN: -- is paid $829, some of them -- we're going to come to them after the break. We'll explain to you why they feel so frustrated of being furloughed. But there's a serious point here, I mean --


MORGAN: -- why should the very people who have caused the shutdown continue to be paid when the victims of the shutdown are not being paid?

LANKFORD: No, I would assume we're not on that. And that we could do the same thing with your salary, Piers, we could break it down one week at a time and see how that balances out to the average American. Every American makes a different amount. We get that in that sense.

The members of the Senate are paid every two weeks. The members of the House Representatives are paid every month. I'm already sending a letter in back in to say if we're in it and God forbid we are at the end of this that my pay would be held just as every other citizen would be that's going to be affected by this.

We're actually working through the process to get people rolled out of it. We had three different bills today to try to roll people out of it and to be able to solve some of their problems on this where we can find common ground, we should pass those aspects and actually get the common ground and keep moving rather than just sit still.

And we just believe that when we're an impasse since the 1700s we always go back to the same thing, the House and the Senate, both appoint negotiators, negotiate and do that. We've appointed our negotiators, we'd love to have that with the Senate so we can actually sit down in a room and solve this.

MORGAN: OK, Congressman Lankford, thank you very much indeed.

I want to go to the other side of the aisle with Congressman Chris Van Hollen. Is the ranking Democrat on the House Budget Committee. So you heard it all there it's -- apparently it's all your fault, Congressman.

REP. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D), MARYLAND: Right, Piers, there'd be one way to very quickly settle this issue as Jay Carney mentioned. The House of Representatives has in its possession right a clean CR, meaning a bill that would keep the government operating while we then could negotiate on other issues.

The Speaker of the House has refused to allow a vote on that issue. If he wants to vote against it that's his prerogative. But I think the American people deserve an upper down vote in the people's House. And just today on the floor of the House, we try it again simply to bring that bill up for a vote, because I'm absolutely confident that if you take Democrats and Republicans together they are majority in the people's House to fund the clean bill.

So why wouldn't you do it? And the answer is that right now the Speaker is kowtowing to the very far sort of reckless part of his party, the Tea Party, a part of the House. And he's listening to them and refusing to allow the full House to vote on that resolution. We can have it on the President's desk tonight and the lights would go back On the federal government.

MORGAN: Here's my theory. You said John Boehner has lost control on the Tea Party element of the Republican side. But on the Democrat side, I don't think President Obama is a very good negotiator because as Bill Clinton and Newt Gingrich both told me when they went through this before, they spoke every single day and the fact the President really has barely talked to John Boehner at all as he tends not to in the situations. That cannot be in America's national interest because this only gets solved when eventually they talk to each other, right?

VAN HOLLEN: That's right and, Piers, I'm glad you asked and I really encourage everybody to go back and look at the beginning of this year when Speaker Boehner spoke and said that he did not want to have anymore negotiations with the President of the United States. He want to go through what we call the regular order in the House where the House passes bills and the Senate passes bills.

So what happened is the House passed a budget and the Senate passed a budget and the next step in the process is for you to have a negotiation on the budget. Speaker Boehner refused to appoint negotiators on the budget just like in the Senate Ted Cruz and the Tea Party Senators Mike Lee blocked Harry Reid from appointing budget negotiators so they couldn't have that budget negotiation. And as a result, what they decide to do instead was drive the country to the edge of this cliff and they thought they could get by doing that these demands that they've placed on the President which you can never get in a normal negotiation.

MORGAN: Right, but look, here's the situation. We are where we are.

VAN HOLLEN: Yes, we are.

MORGAN: That gambit has failed, the government has shutdown. But at some stage, there has to be negotiation and settlement. What is it likely to be?

VAN HOLLEN: Well, two things. First of all, we should pass right now the bill that's in the House. And again, let's just have a vote on the bill. I mean, I think everyone Republicans and Democrats should agree that the people's House should be able to have a vote on a bill.

I believe that that would go straight to the President's desk and have the government functioning again. So we should do that. Then we should sit down and work on the budget which is I said we've tried to do for many, many months. Back in April, I introduced a resolution calling upon the Speaker to appoint budget negotiators. We had that voted down by Republican colleagues on three occasions.

So, this next step is open the government, stop taking hostages, don't pry the government to the edge, but, let's begin today on budget negotiations so that we end this silliness of six-week Continuing Resolution government shutdowns threat that we're not going to pay our bills, that kind of thing.

MORGAN: Congressman, thank you very much indeed.

VAN HOLLEN: Thank you, Piers.

MORGAN: When we come back, some of the real Americans suffering real effect from the shutdown. I'm going to ask my power panel what it will take to get a solution that everyone can basically live with.


MORGAN: This is shutdown showdown and this will be my town hall. Joining me now in my power panel, Bill Kristol, the Editor of The Weekly Standard, Marc Lamont Hill, Host of Huffpost Live, Grover Norquist, President of Americans for Tax Reform, and Carol Roth, CNBC Contributor Business Strategist and best selling author and we have also a member of our audience Hallie Balkin is a lawyer for the marine corp who has been furloughed because of the shutdown. She's here with her husband Alexander. Hallie, tell me about what has happened to you.

HALLIE BALKIN, FURLOUGHED GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE: Yes. Well, I went into work this morning and I received my furlough notice. So now I am unable to work for an indefinite period.

MORGAN: See. Let me go straight to you on this (inaudible) because you were furious of the way that I propositioned to one of this congressman by asking him about your salary but at least he's getting a damn salary. What about Hallie?

BILL KRISTOL, EDITOR, THE WEEKLY STANDARD: I wasn't furious I just thought it was amusing that you asked the Republican Congressman about his salary and acted all in dignity he was getting a salary with Jay Carney the way those press folks who is doing such a permanent (ph) job.

He is getting a salary and the Democratic Congressman's getting a salary.

MORGAN: I meant that they're all getting salary --

KRISTOL: Well, that's nice but they --

MORGAN: -- n this period? Why should they get --

KRISTOL: Well, you should have asked -- I -- why would you --

MORGAN: Why should they get salaries and this very hardworking young lady be sent home on a spur of a moment with the piece of paper and has no money coming into her family?

KRISTOL: Some of the congressman, a friend of mine Tom Cotton, the congressman from Arkansas said he was giving up his salary for this period, but it's up to each person to do. There are essentially employees.


KRISTOL: Well, what do you mean what is your position.

HILL: My position is if they engineered a shutdown they shouldn't be paid.

KRISTOL: The House Republicans passed the military pay act to make sure the military were paid and those who were -- and I think uniform government we should pay and those were in support of people in uniform --

MORGAN: But not the marine corp lawyer.

HILL: Over -- About 800,000 --

KRISTOL: I don't know about -- right they aren't, that's right because this is a government shutdown, and why is there a government shutdown? Because the Democratic Senate and President Obama will not accept two propositions that the individual mandate should be delayed for a year even though the exchanges have opened in total chaos today. And the second one the congressman should abide by the same rules as everyone else that goes to the exchanges. Those are such unreasonable demands that the President of the United States can't even negotiate with the Speaker about this that Jay Carney can't even make an argument for why those are good pieces of legislation.

HILL: Bill, that sounds great, right? You begin with the non starter and then say the person won't negotiate to a non --

KRISTOL: Why is it a non starter?

HILL: Well, because -- first of all -- KRISTOL: Because it's a law like Piers said, but didn't the President suspend the employer mandate, didn't the President change other parts of the law, shouldn't Congress have the right to say something?

HILL: But the President has been open to negotiating this law for the last --

KRISTOL: Isn't that right?

HILL: Absolutely. And so --

KRISTOL: -- the House Republicans passed, the House Republican suspended the individual mandate, they got 22 Democratic votes in the House, Senator Reid hasn't taken it up, President Obama said he'd veto it. He's not open to discussing anything.

HILL: No, no. First, the President ...

KRISTOL: Instead he opened the exchanges today and they weren't just great.

HILL: He simply won't do it with the government he said.

KRISTOL: No he would not. I'm sorry that's not true.

HILL: And to make the case that the exchange have been a mess. First, of all you're overstating the little calamity at the exchanges and second, this is a major piece of legislation that describes the most significant piece of legislation in 50 years. It's not uncommon that there might be a slightly low over --

KRISTOL: And when was it passed I forgot? That was three years ago and President Obama is the top priority of this Administration --

HILL: Absolutely.

KRISTOL: -- and they had this chaos that they had today.

HILL: It's not chaos.

KRISTOL: Does that tell you something?

HILL: I don't -- I can't see that it was chaos, you know, there are a lot of people that can do.

MORGAN: Time out, time out, time out.

HILL: This would happen when everybody in America has access to health care.

MORGAN: That me join and wrestle back control of this show.

HILL: (inaudible) We only about 80 percent of Americas have access to health care, yes it's going to be a little more messy --

CAROL ROTH, CNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Piers, can I simply (inaudible) here. HILL: -- with everybody has access to affordable care. That's a good thing.

MORGAN: Let's hold fire for one second I want to bring in a woman and try and calm things, Carol Roth. Carol Roth try not to pull patch around this.

ROTH: No, listen I want to -- I want to bring some common sense to this conversation. First, of all I want to thank Hallie for her service. We have to face the real reason why we are in government shutdown, it is not because of Obamacare or not Obamacare it's because the government has run out of money. We are the wealthiest nation in the world, the US government employs more people than anyone, the fact that we continually run out of money and our continually in shutdown situation is absolutely ludicrous and shows our financial mismanagement.

MORGAN: Well, Carol --

ROTH: And if we have bills -- no, no, if we have bills, Piers if we had bills that is cash funding to the budget that they pass we wouldn't never be in this situation to begin with.

MORGAN: Carol, the obvious answer to your crowd pleasing point is that of course the shutdown doesn't help the national financial situation. It makes it massively worst, and this is the problem is it it's so self-defeating. None of these politicians in my view are acting in the interest of the American people.

ROTH: Well -- And that is exactly the problem, the thing that really makes me angry and should make the American public angry is that this is political theatre, this is not about solving inherent problem these laws in our system that is the end of the issue, Piers. We need to hold our politicians to a better standards because we deserve better as Americans.

MORGAN: OK, we have an unprecedented second around of applause to Carol Roth and none of this ever happened on this show before. Let me go swiftly to some of you who never gets applauded Grover Norquist.

Grover what is your take in all this, you're a big boy; you've been round in the block on these things a few times. How do we get through this on pass at the moment and who really is most to blame?

GROVER NORQUIST, PRESIDENT AMERICANS FOR TAX REFORM: Well, the reason that we're trying to get everything done right now is that Obama although he says he's willing to negotiate all the time doesn't even sit down with Republicans until as in 2011 they have the debt ceiling that they run up against.

Then and only then did he sit down and discuss anything at all. Then we've gone up until now with no negotiations, no discussions, the Democrats for years and the Senate didn't even bother to pass budgets year after years.

So this gets pushed into this short time period. What the President's doing now. I think this has overplayed his hand as he did with the sequester when he wouldn't let the kids that have Easter Egg Hunt at The White House because he doesn't have any money.

MORGAN: Dude, what are you saying he's overplayed his hand, Grover? The reality though is as John McCain told me yesterday, "We've seen this movie play out before." And the people that are going to get blamed are the Republicans who looked like they're divided. They don't have a consensus in their own party.

NORQUIST: When the Republicans --

MORGAN: And they will be blamed.

NORQUIST: When the Republicans --

MORGAN: So Obama in the end will win.

NORQUIST: When the Republicans --

KRISTOL: You're trying to blame them, but that wouldn't mean they will be blamed.

HILL: Who's blaming now?

MORGAN: Pretty substantially.

KRISTOL: Piers, let's see what happens.

NORQUIST: Piers, you asked me the question.

MORGAN: Dear Grover, I answered your -- I did ask you the uestion.

NORQUIST: Correct. Up against Clinton, the Republicans did poorly. Why? Clinton approved a law which said, "OK. We're going to take DC off the table." What the Democrats and Obama are opposing now -- the DC funding. He approved and allowed allowing the Veterans Affairs to move through single way by themselves so that that was not being shutdown. This president wants to shutdown the Veterans Affairs. This president won't allow DC to function.

In my -- In the neighborhoods in Capitol Hill, they're putting up fences around the parks like they did to the guys in wheelchairs, the World War II vets, not letting the men to the World War II monument. That's the memory everyone has. That's a cheap, really awful thing that the President and his people did. That's an open park. That's not something that has locks on it. They put locks around at Turtle Park on Capitol Hill --

MORGAN: Just to clarify --

NORQUIST: -- and wouldn't let kids to get to that.

MORGAN: Just to clarify, we went back in time and examined what happened with all the Republican-induced shutdowns over the years. You're telling me that none of these things would have happened in past times, Grover? NORQUIST: Well, OK. When you go back Carter had five shutdowns with only Democrats in the House and Senate and they lasted 10 days each, 58 days total under Carter. He didn't do these targeted things. You remember him shutting down Mt. Rushmore and stuff like that? No, because he was trying to make things work not trying to make political --

HILL: Well, this is a side --

NORQUIST: -- point against the American people.

HILL: This is --

NORQUIST: And with Reagan, they lasted one, two, and three days. OK, there were 7 or 8 of them. They lasted a day or two, no more than three. We now have a president, he pulled the same stunt with the sequester claiming he didn't have enough money to an Easter Egg Hunt, they close down the White house tourist, the Capitol does tours, the White House doesn't do tours. Same sequester in both cases. He's just being petty and vain and trying to punish the American people for his spending too much money.

HILL: That's a bizarre analysis, Grover. You're -- The Republican Party holds the government hostage, shuts it down and they've been using the President is being petty and mean by how he responds or represent the shutdown. This isn't how he respond to the shutdown, Grover. The issue --

NORQUIST: All the President has to do is sign the legislation --

HILL: -- is the shutdown itself. And Republicans have been --

NORQUIST: -- that the Republicans moved forward.

HILL: -- been unwilling to compromise, unwilling to meet 18 times the opportunity over the last year and a half to talk about budgets. And now suddenly, 24 hours ago, they want to talk budgets. The Democratic Party has been open to talking about health care for the last three years.

NORQUIST: The Democrats --

HILL: Unfortunately the Republicans had done nothing but attempt to repeal Obamacare wholesale. They want to make these dramatic demonstrations in Congress.


HILL: Nothing substance is here.

MORGAN: Time out. Time out. Let's do a short break. I might keep everybody still going. Bill, you haven't exploded for at least (inaudible). So --

HILL: He's about to.

MORGAN: -- work yourself up and we'll be back after the break.


MORGAN: Business shutdown stirred (ph). It's moving right in time (inaudible). And with me now Bill Kristol, Marc Lamont Hill, Grover Norquist and Carol Roth . Let's go to our audience again for a question from Miranda Yaufer (ph). Miranda (inaudible).

MIRANDA YAUFER: Hi my name is Miranda Yaufer (ph) and I'm wondering in light of Ted Cruz' recent comments on Obamacare, what do you see as the implications for the upcoming 2013 gubernatorial elections and the face of the GOP?

MORGAN: Yes, I mean this is an interesting point isn't it, Bill because Ted Cruz has made his march, he's the new male version of Sara Palin with one of the better comparison and which he may take as a compliment, many wouldn't. But in terms of his ability to direct the Republican Party right now, he's the guy in the saddle isn't he?

KRISTOL: Well, if Chris Christie going to get reelected the governor of New Jersey and he is not taking orders form Ted Cruz, and I think Republicans have a very promising field for 2016 with an awful a lot of young senators, governors, congressman like Paul Ryan. And the Democrats are going to nominate the fine woman who has been around for quite a long time. And was -- who did nothing accomplished nothing as Secretary of State under President Obama. So I like Republican odds in 2014 to 2016.

HILL: 2014 is going to be a tough year for Republicans. Right now, these negotiations are frustrating the American people and it's going to make Tea Party Republicans get trounced in 2014 I guarantee you. Now there will be some Moderates who will come back in, it may not be Democratic victories but it will certainly mean some Moderate return to the House for the GOP I think it's going to be a tough year for them. The President has, you know, if I were the President, I would take on more of this so the Democrats aren't also sort of hit by this in the 2014. The Republican will have a tough 2014.

MORGAN: Carol Roth, does it kind of wonders you Carol, as you see the reputation of America on the global state. Because America still remains the greatest super power, but that's going to last for in a many more decades, we know that. Other emerging super powers are coming. And the rest of the world is looking at this. Frankly putting a gas to what they're seeing the Statue of Liberty closed. You know what is going on in America is the feeling back in Britain or Australia or whatever it may be. What about America incorporates it and how it moves forward and restores its credibility and its reputation?

ROTH: Well I think first of all, Piers that the place where it needs to restore it's reputation most importantly is in the eyes of the American people. And we have these government officials that we have elected to represent us. And for some reason they think that we work for them instead of vice versa. So as important as the national stage is, I'm more concern first and foremost about how they are treating the American people, the hardworking people on Main Street.

That being said, the big issue here doesn't matter if we have the budget or Continuing Resolution that we are broke. And we will have to borrow for any budget that has passed. And if we don't raise that debt feeling, well then you know what has end up happening is that we end up in a situation where we could potentially default on our debt and that becomes a big problem in the world stage because they are the ones that are currently funding us.

MORGAN: OK. Final points from you Grover, you could be very brief with this.


MORGAN: What happens to Ronald Reagan's 11th commandment? Thou shalt not speak ill of any fellow Republican?

NORQUIST: Well, he invented that when he was running ahead as the favorite. It was not something he believed in strongly when he was challenging the sitting president for it.

To the question of 2014 though that what the Democrats have to keep in mind is Obama was willing to compromise in 2011 because he was out for election. He need to cut $2.5 trillion in spending that the Republicans insisted on we got the sequester. Fast forward, he's passed his election, but there are a number -- six, seven Democrats up for the Senate who just cast votes just recently not to delay the individual mandate even though Obama has given delays to the big insurance companies, the big businesses and big labor units. Not to have equity between government employees who work for Congress and you and me. And not to get rather the stupid tax that Obamacare has that makes medical devices more expensive.

The Democrats are now going to turn around and vote not to keep the Veterans Affairs open. Not to keep the national parks open and not to keep the DC open.

They're accumulating votes that are going to cost them senate sits and Obama is not looking out after their interest.


NORQUIST: He's are already passed his election.

MORGAN: All right. Well, I'm glad I did not ask you for the long- winded response. But Grover it's always good to see you. And Bill Kristol, Grover Norquist, Carol Roth, Marc Lamont Hill live in the panel tonight. Give Grover a round applause he hasn't get one moment.

Thank you (inaudible).

Coming next, as he (inaudible) to ultimate shutdown from Jesse Ventura he's flown in to be with me live and unleashed (ph) after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) MORGAN: While Congress and the White House battle of the showdown of shutdown, many Americans are getting more and more frustration. They're angry and so as my next guest the former Minnesota Governor Jesse Ventura, author the new book "They Killed Our President: 63 Reasons to Believe There was a Conspiracy to Assassinate JFK."

In the chair is Jesse Ventura, welcome to you Jesse.

JESSE VENTURA, FMR GOVERNOR OF MINNESOTA: Thanks Piers and all the pleasure.

MORGAN: How is the government of the world's greatest civil power really shutdown or is it just some vast conspiracy?

VENTURA: Well, you know, their shutdown and I guess my question would be since the government shut down that should mean we shouldn't we have to pay any taxes, right?

Yet it's not going to work that way. There's -- Even though they're not working we're still going to be paying. I think it's time for a revolt in this country.

I've been advocating a revolution for years now. Revolutions don't have to be violent, but we need one and I would tell everybody here vote them all out of office and, wait, don't vote in a new Democrat or Republican, vote for anyone but Democrats and Republicans.

MORGAN: One of the question I ask you because let's take to the little run in this room (inaudible) sample it. You want (inaudible) take for political persuasion. But how many people here are Republicans? Just a few hands. How many are Democrats? Few more hands. And how many are neither republican nor Democrats? So you are Jesse Ventura future of American (inaudible).

VENTURA: We are the majority.

MORGAN: How much of that do you think? This is just random selection of people that gets (inaudible) to watch the show, but how much of this is done to just general dissatisfaction with the American political system?

VENTURA: Well, it's because the Democrats and Republicans have created this corrupt system and they been in charge now for a 150 years.

They've created the system that's based completely on the concept of bribery. If you pay them and bribe them, you get audience with them. If you don't you're out the door.

And so, we need to get away from this concept of bribery. And that's why I'm considering making a run, but I need a couple of things have to happen first. But I would run on this ladies and gentlemen, my simple campaign would be this. I would give you the opportunity to elect the first President of United States that does not belong to any political party since George Washington. He is our only President that belongs to no political party, and I think it's high time we elect someone that does not belong to these two games, because it's the games that dictate what's going on.

This is all game warfare here. This is game warfare where the gangs put themselves first, the gang first, the gang's money first, and we the country become second or third. We're actually third in line.

MORGAN: See, if you (inaudible) about this, some people will say, "No, no, Jesse is not like that," and yet approval ratings plummet each time I talk to you even lower, and actually you end up thinking, yeah there a bunch of gangs.

VENTURA: They are.

MORGAN: I overpay them to war (ph) at children.

VENTURA: Well, let's look at this way. The big thing is health care, right? Well, in my last book I showed you all, these elected officials have four options to choose from of health care. They will give us one, yet they get four to choose from. Now --

MORGAN: What do you think Obamacare?

VENTURA: Since the government shutdown, are they getting paid? Of course they are.

MORGAN: What do you think of Obamacare?

VENTURA: Do what now?

MORGAN: What do you think of Obamacare?

VENTURA: I don't think anything of it, because my belief is quite simple. We in the Unites States of America should have a policy that anyone who gets sick should be able to go to the doctor.

Now, how they want to do? It is up to them. But if we get out of all this gang wars without more money to pay for health care than we could shake a stick at, but instead we go to war, go to war, go to war.

I love the reaction of the American people on the Syria deal, because we're 300 to 1 opposing anymore war. Finally, you're all awakening up. Finally, you're waking up that we've been that perineal war for 16 years. Enough of this. Enough of this war crap.

MORGAN: Well, enough of this particular segment, but you'll come in back after the break.

VENTURA: And let's talk about my book.

MORGAN: To state more, Jesse Ventura, after the break.


MORGAN: Back now with my special guest Jesse Ventura. And again, Jesse you hate all to write populous notes with all this stuff. And let's get real for a moment, is it feasible in our lifetime that you could have a candidate running for president who was successful, who was not a member of the Republican or Democratic Party?

VENTURA: I did it. I won the governorship of Minnesota and was not a member of the Democrat and Republican.

MORGAN: Could you do it on a presidential level?

VENTURA: Sure. If I'm allowed in the debates but you notice those two parties control the debates. They won't let anyone else in them. If I can debate them, Piers, I can beat them. It's that simple.

MORGAN: Somebody could merely say, nobody who wears tie-dyed shirts could ever be president of United States.

VENTURA: Well, I guess --

MORGAN: What is your response?

VENTURA: My response would be then I guess a real person shouldn't be president because I'm a real person. Do you know when I ran for governor I never used a prepared speech?

MORGAN: Is that true?

VENTURA: Yes, because my belief is if you tell the truth, you don't have to have a good memory.


MORGAN: You've written a new book.


MORGAN: It's called "They Killed Our President: 63 Reasons to Believe There Was a Conspiracy to Assassinate JFK". Not new that there may have been a conspiracy to assassinate, what is new about your book?

VENTURA: Well, what's new about our book is there's always new information coming out. There's always more and more that's what makes it so intriguing to study it. That's what to me makes studying the Kennedy assassination more interesting than say reading a Vince Flynn book or Tom Clancy book. Those are all fiction, this really happened.

MORGAN: So, who -- And who killed Kennedy, do you think?

VENTURA: Yes, you can't answer that question because it's been 50 years and there's nowhere -- no way to say specifically who

MORGAN: Well, I can answer it.

VENTURA: I can't tell you this.

MORGAN: Well let me ask you ... VENTURA: Wait, I can't tell you this.

MORGAN: Let me tell you what I think, I think --

VENTURA: It wasn't Lee Harvey Oswald.

MORGAN: But I think it was.


MORGAN: I mean, I interviewed a guy called Clint Hill who was the body guard. If you see the footage of the (inaudible)


MORGAN: And that the bullets come, he's the guy that jumps on the back.


MORGAN: And he's actually -- he was John F. Kennedy's bodyguard.


MORGAN: I'm telling (inaudible)

VENTURA: Why would Secret Service on the bumper that day. They were removed. You can go in internet and see it.

MORGAN: That's not what he told me.

VENTURA: They were removed from the bumper and the Secret Service guy turns to his arsenals.

MORGAN: That's not what you -- but Jesse, here's my point.


MORGAN: Jesse, here's my point.

VENTURA: And they took him off the bumper. Why did they change the way that -- for Dallas only, the way the motor cycles were lined up. They put four of them way in front and the others all behind. They didn't go in the standard wedge, which was used in the two previous days before. But in Dallas that changed.

They got him out of the way to give a clear shooting lane.

MORGAN: Let me tell you, here's my point. Clinton Hill who was there and was on the back of that limo, he said --

VENTURA: He wasn't on the back, OK.

MORGAN: He jumped on the back.

VENTURA: Yes, from a car way behind him -- MORGAN: Correct.

VENTURA: -- and took him how long to get there.

MORGAN: But he believed Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. Now, why do you know more than he does?

VENTURA: Well, because of the fact, there's a whole lot of information. There is so obvious when you read this book, I let you people be the judge. Read the book. It's so obvious. The Secret Service -- wait --

MORGAN: Oh, come on, who do you think did it?

VENTURA: The Secret Service protected Kennedy more after death and they did when was alive because they illegally took the body out of Texas. Autopsied by law should have gone on there.

Lyndon Johnson, the car was a crime scene. Everybody knows, tape goes around the crime scene until forensic explored that. Monday morning, that car was in Michigan being refurbished already moved, no one was allowed to see the car.

MORGAN: Jesse, who do you think kills JFK?

VENTURA: There is multiple choices.

MORGAN: Well, give me one.

VENTURA: Well, the -- Kennedy made tremendous amount of enemies. The Military-Industrial Complex hated him because he wouldn't go to war in Cuba, he was already withdrawing troops from Vietnam, there would have been no Vietnam War.

Him and Khrushchev were actually back channeled communicating and they would had both plan on ending the Cold War by '65. Khrushchev was taken out of power. They were doing it via Pope John in the Vatican. The Pope died and Kennedy was murdered. We have the Cold War for 20 years.

So the military is extra ...

MORGAN: So, what is your brain tell you is the most --

VENTURA: He also -- Kennedy was going to take away the oil depletion allowance, which is what all oil guys use to make big money so that they can make $30 million a year and pay no taxes. So, we have big oil mad at him. He had the Military-Industrial Complex mad at him, plus he was doing the first move towards Human Rights in this country, which the South hated him for.

So, you've got multiple choices of many --

MORGAN: You've written the book about it, well what do you think is the most likely theory? VENTURA: I think -- Here's the deal, there were two conspiracies that took place. The first conspiracy was the actual one, to murder the President. The second conspiracy was to cover it up after it happened. Both of those took place.

Now, you have separate players on both sides of that. Well, look at it this way. Read the opening, the Katzenbach memo that we open the book with.

This is the from the Acting Attorney General and he states Monday morning, "We must convince the people Oswald acted alone that he had no one with him and then if he went to trial, he'll be convicted." This is Monday morning before they've looked at one shred of evidence.

The attorney -- the Acting Attorney General of the United States sends this memo to the new President and that's exactly what he says, it's exactly and they said, "We need to form a commission to rub or stump all of this so that we don't have any type of Congressional or other investigations will be that we would have a real investigation."

MORGAN: But Jesse, you're a straight talker. I've now asked you multiple times. You have written a book about it (inaudible) --

VENTURA: I can't tell you.

MORGAN: I've given you my theory, which is the pretty commonly held one it was Lee Harvery Oswald have --

VENTURA: He couldn't make the shot.

MORGAN: I've sighted my source, it was one of the Secret Service detail. He actually went on the car and he said he acted alone, you got 30 seconds left to try and give me a straight answer (inaudible) --

VENTURA: I can't give you one. I can't tell you who did it. I wasn't there and it's unfair to ask a question. You think you've won the argument simply because I can't name who did it?

MORGAN: Yes, I do.

VENTURA: Well, OK, James Files was the shooter on the Grassy Knoll. He's already confessed to it in prison. You have the confession of the E. Howard Hunt on my TV show. You had mainstream media said not a word about it. Hunt confessed, LBK knew he went right down the chain of command. He was called the big event. It was his death bed confessions to his son. Yet --


MORGAN: You've only given me six reasons so far. There are 63 reasons to believe in this book it was conspiracy of assassination of JFK. As always, Jesse, you are a compelling talker when it comes to these things. I don't know how much I believe. And I love the way you talk.

VENTURA: Read the book.

MORGAN: I'd urge read it. It's a good talking point. Good to see you.

VENTURA: All right.

MORGAN: Mr. Ventura with his book, "They Killed our President: 63 Reasons to Believe There was a Conspiracy to Assassinate JFK" is out now. And one of the audience is going home with his book. Thanks to Jesse Ventura a generous man.(ph) And w will be right back.


MORGAN: Jesse Ventura is still here. He's still talking, in fact to the audience. No sign of leaving any time soon.

Tomorrow night Amanda Knox's former boyfriend joins me live, exclusive interview scenes we got to see tomorrow night, AC 360 LATER starts right now.