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Michael Jackson`s Family Loses; Mysterious Dr. MacNeill

Aired October 2, 2013 - 21:00   ET



DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, prescription pills, plastic surgery, lovers on the side, suicide, suspicion, stolen identities, and death. Dr. Martin MacNeill is on trial for killing his wife.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My father orchestrated this whole plan and how to murder my mother.

PINSKY: Plus, another husband is accused of strangling his spouse after multiple affairs.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was just a three of us kissing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I remember kissing him.

PINSKY: Let`s get started.



PINSKY: Good evening, everybody.

My co-host, attorney and Sirius XM Radio host -- well, she is gone right now, Jenny Hutt.

And we`ll get to the outrageous material in the Dr. MacNeill murder case in just a couple of minutes.

But first, breaking news - there`s a verdict as you have heard in the Michael Jackson wrongful death trial. His family who had initiated the lawsuit has lost.

Here`s a look back at the case and the verdict just hours ago.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: AEG Live never would have agreed to finance this tour if it knew Mr. Jackson was playing Russian roulette every night in his bedroom.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He caused the death of Michael Jackson.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was an easy target.

MICHAEL JACKSON, KING OF POP: This is it. This is it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They didn`t know what was going on in his house. How could they? No one knew what Propofol was or heard of it before.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The whole world stopped when the king of pop stopped and everyone grieved.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tragedy for the kids. It`s horrible. And it`s incredibly sad. But it is not a tragedy of AEG Live`s making.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Question number one, did AEG live hire Dr. Conrad Murray? You answered yes. And then we`ll ask jury number one, was that your verdict?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Question number two, was Dr. Conrad Murray unfit or incompetent to perform the work for which he was hired? Answer, no.


PINSKY: HLN correspondent Jean Casarez is on the phone with us.

Jean, what does it mean?

JEAN CASAREZ, HLN LEGAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Well, it`s all about money and the jury rendered that verdict that AEG was not liable, not responsible for the death of Michael Jackson in any capacity, but it really goes to the jury instructions. That road map for the jury because what they were asked was whether Conrad Murray was incompetent at the time he was hired. That is based on the contract -- the contract that was actually never signed.

They did not look at during the course of the rehearsals and the days when Michael Jackson couldn`t get out of bed, the day that he had the chills at rehearsals. They weren`t even posed that question AEG responsibility during the course of the preparation for the tour.

PINSKY: Thanks, Jean.

Joining us, Mark Eiglarsh, attorney at, Danny Cevallos, attorney and CNN legal analyst, HLN`s Lynn Berry, and attorney Areva Martin.

Mark, I understand, you have very strong feelings about this case. I just want to say that I think they got the one thing right. Conrad Murray was apparently as every bit of evidence we have seen an excellent cardiologist. He was not trained in dealing with mental health issues and addiction and nobody trained to treat Propofol at home.

But, Mark, what`s your reaction?

MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: They got it right and I`m so pleased that they didn`t let sympathy overcome the jurors and they focused exclusively on the legal issue in the case.

At the time he was hired by AEG as we learned from the criminal trial, he was loved. He was a wonderful cardiologist, had no business around Propofol, was horrible to Michael Jackson.

But that was not the legal issue. At the time they hired him, they hired a reputable guy. His instruments weren`t made by Fisher Price. He didn`t meet the patients in an alleyway. He was well-respected, he was well-loved and the decision was courageous and correct.

PINSKY: Lynn, do you agree with that?

LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST: I do because AEG was very effective in their argument that they`re not responsible for what happens behind closed doors and they effectively argued that Michael Jackson was a closet drug addict. They had some of his closest relatives go up and say they didn`t even know he had a Propofol addiction. So, they effectively used that in their defense to say, listen, how are we supposed to know? We didn`t hire Dr. Conrad Murray to do that, we hired him to be the internist.

And that is what the jurors decided today when they said no to question number two.

PINSKY: Areva, you`re still onboard -- go ahead.

AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: Yes, Dr. Drew. I think what`s so hard about this case is, you know, when you have a case about whether a company has hired someone to perform a job, there`s also the issue of supervision. And I think people are going to be asking -- you know, what steps did AEG take to supervise the work that Dr. Murray was doing?

The jurors did find that they hired Dr. Murray. So, I think the next logical question becomes, did they do anything to oversee, to supervise what he was doing in the home? I think people are going to have a hard time just accepting that they didn`t do anything to ensure that.

PINSKY: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait, the HIPAA law prevents the doctor from sharing anything --


PINSKY: -- about what he does with his patients to anybody, even other doctors without the exclusive --

MARTIN: Dr. Drew, I don`t disagree with the legal finding, but I think people -- I think people at home who are not lawyers, who are not going to understand all of the intricacies of jury instructions and jury verdicts are going to feel like Dr. Murray had responsibility and AEG that hired Dr. Murray should be responsible.

PINSKY: Danny?

BERRY: I think there are a lot of people at home saying enough with these frivolous lawsuits. What about personal responsibility?

PINSKY: Danny, what do you got?

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. Consider how much was at stake here. I know now we can talk about what a slam dunk this might have been, but I never believed this was a slam dunk. Even if the jury apportioned some liability, if the plaintiff had appealed to their emotions, we`re not talking about small amounts of money. We`re talking about potentially billions of dollars that would have been apportioned even finding AEG partially at fault.

Now, yes, this case turned on its head people`s traditional ideas of an independent doctor with independent judgment because this was not your normal doctor/patient relationship. I would be highly doubtful that AEG`s lawyer felt that this was a sure win. There had to be a lot of anxiety prior to the reading of that verdict.

PINSKY: Jenny, what do you think?

HUTT: I think -- I think at the time of the contract, the initial contract when Dr. Murray was hired there was no negligence going right to what Mark said. I think the jury got it correct.

PINSKY: Yes. Unfortunately the reality is that all of the money changing hands, adulterated the relationship.

I said this during the Conrad Murray trial. I`ll say it again here. That tremendous amount of money, adulterated that relationship.

Any time a doctor treats any patient as special, different than the standard of care, they`re getting sub-standard care and poor Dr. Murray didn`t know what he got himself into to, would have taken a team to approach a case like Michael Jackson. Twenty years of experience dealing with case like this, when I lecture at the medical schools, I tell the kids, I put Dr. Murray`s picture on the wall and say don`t go it alone and don`t be special. You`ll get your ass in a sling.

Got go, guys.

Next up, a doctor is on trial for murdering his wife and he -- some are alleging -- could be a serial killer.

And later, another husband on trial for killing his wife. And you`re going to hear what his multiple lovers have to say about him and some of the things he might have pulled on that wife.

We`re back after this.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host Jenny Hutt. There you are. I`m not looking at a -- some sort of color bars.

HUTT: A prism, yes.

PINSKY: That`s right.

Dr. Martin MacNeill is charged with murdering his beauty queen wife so he could carry on an affair with his lover and her name is Gypsy. Prosecutors say he drugged his wife and then drowned her in the bathtub. There`s a lot more to this case and we will break it down, outrage by outrage in a second but first I want you to watch this.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is a serial killer. Everybody around him has died.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Prosecutors allege she was drugged and drowned. A murder plot so Dr. MacNeill could continue an affair with this woman, Gypsy Willis.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I believe from the beginning he murdered my sister.

PINSKY: A dead woman, dead of poly-drug overdose and drowning following a procedure she didn`t want.

DISPATCH: Is she breathing at all?


DISPATCH: OK, sir, the ambulance has been paged. They`re on their way, OK? Do not hang up. What? Sir!


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have anything?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dr. MacNeill`s defense attorney left the courthouse without comment.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This guy`s laundry list of criminal behavior and activities and lies --


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He has adamantly professed his innocence from the beginning. Continues to do so.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Kind of horrible to be so excited about, you know, your father being arrested.


PINSKY: HLN legal correspondent Jean Casarez is back with us.

Jean, give us some update on this case.

CASAREZ (via telephone): Well, the update is the jury is not going to hear a lot of the lies that Dr. McMartin perpetrated in his life. One being, he has convicted already of identity theft and fraud as has his Gypsy -- the woman he`s having the affair with. They both were convicted of it because she took on his daughter`s name after his wife died to rid herself of some debts that she had.

PINSKY: Wow. Thank you, Jean.

This guy, the stuff keeps pouring out about this case. It is so bizarre.

Still here with us is Mark, Danny, Areva and Lynn.

HUTT: Dr. Drew --

PINSKY: Jenny, go ahead.

HUTT: I just wanted to clarify, what he did was he took one of the daughters who`ve been adopted from the Ukraine, shipped her back to the Ukraine, and then had Gypsy assume that child`s name. So sick.


All right. I want to go to the affidavit and outline some of the allegations of this case because it just goes on and on and I think last night tried to go through it. It`s such a Rorschach. I want to kind of go through it point by point.

So, in 2006, one of the mistresses told her psychiatrist, she was having an affair with a serial killer. This is in the affidavit.

She said Martin told her he`s trying to kill --

EIGLARSH: Objection.

PINSKY: Hang on, counselor. I`m going to lay it all out and then you can object.

He tried to kill his mother when he was young but it didn`t work, because his sister called 911. He said he killed his brother because he`d attempted suicide for, quote, "attention" and become an embarrassment. He said he found him in the tub with both wrist bleeding, and then pushed him under water.

Counselor, you`re objecting?

EIGLARSH: Yes. Objection, completely and thoroughly legally irrelevant.

Court of public opinion, different courthouse. You can throw in whatever you want. Everybody can convict him. You can do whatever they want. There`s no right or wrong, good, bad. Whatever you guys want to do, you go right ahead.

And, quite frankly, I think he`s guilty as hell, personally. However, in a court of law, I`d say 98 percent and I`m leaving 2 percent because maybe you said was admissible, almost all of it is completely and thoroughly more prejudicial than probative. It will not come into evidence.

MARTIN: I agree with Mark tonight.

EIGLARSH: Thank you, girl.

MARTIN: And also, one of the issues is to -- you`re going to have a whole separate trial on those allegations? We don`t know if the people were dead. How did they die? There`s no evidence he actually killed them.

A court doesn`t have time to take on collateral issues like the ones in the affidavit.

PINSKY: Who cares about the legal stuff? He`s a killer, a murder.

MARTIN: It`s a trial, Jenny! We have to care about the legal stuff.

EIGLARSH: The legal stuff?

HUTT: Listen. My point is, my point is, if our goal to try to --

EIGLARSH: Called the Constitution, Jen.

HUTT: I understand. But I`m saying the here and now, let`s focus on the fact that he`s a maniacal, disgusting, vile creature.

MARTIN: We agree with you on those points, Jenny.

PINSKY: Hold on. There`s more. There`s more.

From the same girlfriend, he said he wanted to kill his daughter, because her drug addiction was an embarrassment, also embarrassment. He also offered to kill the girlfriend`s husband to relieve her of an abusive relationship.

I haven`t heard from you yet, Danny. This is all -- you agree with Mark and Areva -- this is all nonsense?

CEVALLOS: Doctor, if your name was your honor I`d already objected just like Mark has already objected. Those statements shouldn`t come in.

And after all, whether they do or not, even though they would be very prejudicial, the real case here has got to be the autopsy and I keep coming back to that.

And I have to ask you, Doctor, to a reasonable degree of medical certainty, if three of your brethren doctors can`t agree on the manner or cause of death, can you say, doc, beyond a reasonable doubt we know how this person died?

PINSKY: Well, Counselor, if I had all the information which apparently two of the medical examiners did not including the toxicology, I`m understanding, no way would you just be -- we can`t tell.

But when you get somebody dead with a bunch of addictive substances in their body or really things that are well-known to cause you to stop breathing, that`s why they stop breathing. Lin, there`s more, right? Running around telling people he had cancer and he had MS and he told -- what? He told them he didn`t have long to live. Went to church and told them that -- he had all kinds of ridiculous complaints.

BERRY: It goes on and on and on. You guys, he said he was a doctor and worked off of fake transcripts. He wasn`t even a real doctor. He didn`t even go to school for this. This guy was a complete pathological liar.

And there`s hard concrete evidence that really works in the prosecution`s -- in this case. It`s not just -- I think that 911 call is going to be so essential. He hangs up three different times. He says he was trying to perform CPR but in the autopsy there was water in the lungs. If he had performed CPR that wouldn`t be the case. He also said that he needed help getting her out of the case.

This is the man who`s getting his smaller wife out of the tub. All you have to do is have to drag her out. And he also was a physician. And sounded completely angry and lashing out. This is a physician you would assume knows what he`s doing in a situation like this in a crisis. There`s a lot of evidence.

PINSKY: Absolutely. No, listen, when you`re in an emergency you focus in and seem a little cold because you`re all about delivering something helpful to somebody and when you`re doing CPR, you`re not speaking. You`re giving mouth to mouth, or at least, you know, may come up for air here and there.

But he doesn`t sound like he was doing anything. And as you said, water in the lungs suggested he didn`t initiate CPR. He has a history of apparently of alleged sexual misconduct. He once threatened suicide when his wife caught him looking at pornography. I don`t know why he threatened suicide, and something about maybe having sex with a patient, accused of rape.

And a daughter -- this is the part that really put this case over the top. His daughter said he fondled her twice within months of his mother`s death. He claimed because he thought Alexis was his wife. I know you`re feeling --

HUTT: Oh, come on!

PINSKY: Well, forget that. But how about the fact that his daughters think he`s a psychopath?

HUTT: Well, of course, they think he`s a psychopath, especially if he`s fondling one of them and saying he`s doing it thinking of the wife.

PINSKY: I lost jenny. Anybody else lost her, too?

HUTT: Go back to Danny for a second.

Danny, you said that the medical examiners had three different versions. And we`re going to break. So -- I`m not going to Danny.

I just -- the first medical examiner --

CEVALLOS: I was all excited. I want to hear about the medical examiner.


HUTT: The medical examiner had the wrong information because MacNeill was the one who delivered the information to the first medical examiner, and then that medical examiner died so that`s why that one should be striked.

CEVALLOS: That may be true but that`s the state`s own expert. Are you actually suggesting that the state -- the state`s own expert couldn`t exercise independent judgment? What does that say about the prosecution in general?

HUTT: Well, that they made a mistake with that medical examiner.

CEVALLOS: What else did they make a mistake about?

HUTT: Well, I think they made a mistake in --

PINSKY: Jenny, you`re going to hear from the doctor.

CEVALLOS: That`s a problem.

PINSKY: Gypsy is going to tell us what she knows. You`re going to hear what she has to say.

And later, a husband reports his wife missing then her naked body is found in the woods. Why is he then on trial for murder long after the event?

Back after this.



UNIDENTIFEID FEMALE: The entire relationship was very casual. It was never even a possibility. It was not a consideration. He had told me early on, probably January or February of 2006 that he was married. He was very happy, had a wonderful family.

So, this was just for fun. Just for excitement. Just on the side.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, so that changed after April of 2007?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And why did that change after April 2007?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His wife had passed away.


PINSKY: Time for the behavior bureau.

Back with my co-host Jenny Hutt and we`re looking at Gypsy there, the mistress at the center of the Martin MacNeill murder case.

Joining us, Samantha Schacher, host of "Pop Trigger" in the Young Turks Network; psychotherapist Tiffanie Davis Henry, the human lie detector, Janine Driver, author of "You Can`t Lie to Me", and Danine Manette.

What kind of woman, folks, would be attracted to a man like this? I`ll start with Tiffanie.

TIFFANIE DAVIS HENRY, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: I wish you hadn`t, Dr. Drew, because I have no idea. I have no answer for you. I definitely think someone with not a strong sense of self or good ego. I mean, it takes someone who can be easily manipulated and certainly someone who`s very gullible and will believe pretty much anything and willing to go along for the ride.

The problem with going along for the ride is you don`t know where that car is going, you have no control of it, and when he feels like he wants to leave you at the side of the road, he will. And unfortunately, with his past, he might leave her at the side of the road dead.

HUTT: Right.

PINSKY: And, Sam, the way this works is, you know, a guy, psychopaths often attract borderlines. Remember Jodi Arias? She also been called a borderline personality.

And now, this Gypsy may have borderline. Apparently, he had another ex-girlfriend who a -- there are allegations she had a multiple personality disorder which some health care professionals see on the spectrum with borderline disorder.

So, it`s borderline types to come into this guy`s life would sort of confirm his psychopathy.

Sam, you find this guy attractive?



SCHACHER: Here`s -- here`s the thing. OK? Let`s talk about Gypsy because Gypsy is cuckoo crazy. This is somebody arrested four different times. This is somebody who we know, you know, participated in the identity theft of Martin MacNeill`s adopted daughter and shipped her off to the Ukraine.

And what really makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up was -- when I read in the affidavit about when they questioned her roommates, and Gypsy`s roommate said that, you know, that Gypsy admitted said that she would stalk Michele, that she had a picture of Michele up in her closet, that when they were watching some sort of a TV show of a doctor trying to kill his wife or did kill his wife while administering a lethal injection and poisoning her essentially, that she asked and was very adamant about finding out what that cocktail was or what`s that medication was, so she could do the same to Michele. This woman is crazy.

HUTT: And she`s having sex with him in a closet.

SCHACHER: Yes, at an event.

PINSKY: Hold on a second. Hold on a second, you guys. Jenny in the closet with the wife`s picture on the wall?

HUTT: No, no, no. She was having sex with Dr. MacNeill in Dr. MacNeill and his wife`s bedroom while his wife was supposedly healing from the face-lift.

SCHACHER: They did on an event, too. Supposedly while the wife was sitting there eating at the buffet table, he and Gypsy were in the closet having sex. Yes.

PINSKY: Now, one of Gypsy`s roommates testified and said that Gypsy feeling sick of waiting for MacNeill to get rid of his wife and she hatched her own plan to cut the brake lines on Michele`s car. Listen to this.


UNIDENTIFEID FEMALE: She was angry because he had told this MacNeill had told her that they had to back off for a while because his wife was getting suspicious. She was saying that she was -- she needed -- she wanted her out of the way. She was interfering with her relationship with him and that if she cut her brakes and then she would drive down the hill into a ravine. I said, Gypsy, she`s got little kids in the car. And she turned around and she goes, they`ll be in car seats. They`ll be just fine.


PINSKY: And then listen to how Gypsy responds to that accusation during the preliminary hearings and then, Danine, I`m going to have you react.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you ever recall talking to Michele and/or Brandy about cutting the brakes of Michele MacNeill`s car, the brake lines?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And you don`t recall Michele responding with concern about children being injured potentially?



PINSKY: Now, Danine, I find it interesting we`ve been having this conversation swirled about you have had this glorious grin on your face. What are you smiling about?

DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: Dr. Drew, I don`t know how these people find each other. I have been approached by many bozo in a bar, who has a sorry pickup line, but never has anyone come up to me and said, hey, you know, let`s get a crime van, let`s get a sex slave and bring her home, let`s kill your husband. Never have I met anyone like that.

PINSKY: You`ve never lived, Danine. I don`t know.

MANETTE: Truly believe --

PINSKY: I don`t know about you.


HUTT: You don`t have that look.

MANETTE: I think she was instrumental in how he chose to kill his wife. I think he was going to try to poison her, but his little side piece decided she was tired of waiting, she wanted to be Dr. Kevorkian`s wife. She was ready to measure for the drapes, and so, he just kind of, you know, decided, OK, I`ve got have to hurry up and get this down. I mean, I`ve drowned somebody before. When`s another bloated corpse laying around?


MANETTE: I just think she was probably part of why he killed her the way he did. I don`t think this was the initial plan.

PINSKY: Now, Janine, you have had a chance to listen to her. We don`t have a lot of footage of her. What is your interpretation of what you`re hearing and whatever footage you have seen, what you see of old Gypsy?

JANINE DRIVER, HUMAN LIE DETECTOR: Dr. Drew, I`m dying to talk here. One, Gypsy says, absolutely not. If I ask you, Dr. Drew, do you want to kill the entire behavior bureau tonight with heroin needles and you say absolutely not, we need to --

PINSKY: Not tonight anyway.

DRIVER: We make sure that you are in lockdown because absolutely not is overselling your answer. We are looking for a no.

The second thing I want to say is, MacNeill, listen to him, MacNeill - - he`s powerful. Why did Travis Alexander go back with Jodi Arias after she broke in, after she`s a nut head, because powerful people, like the Jodi Arias, the Casey Anthony, the MacNeills of the world, this is what they do, Dr. Drew -- they`re powerful and so when they lie, they focus on the rewards and not the consequences. And powerful liars Dr. Drew, have an increase in cognizant thinking.

This is what that means -- that means when they`re busted in a lie, they can turn the lie around and sweep you off their feet. They tend to be charming and this is why people get roped in. The Travis Alexanders and other people. So, these powerful liars -- they have a -- literally, powerful liars decrease stress when they`re lying.

PINSKY: Powerful, you mean they come from a position of feeling empowered or the lying is so overwhelmingly powerful it sweeps you into the lie.

DRIVER: You know, he`s a doctor, he`s a lawyer --


PINSKY: I see.

DRIVER: Whether it`s beauty, whether it`s education, whether it`s finances, and whether it`s real or not real, it`s what we believe to be true is ultimately the truth to us and that`s what will change. A normal guy, you focus on the consequence. Powerful liar, the Bernie Madoffs (ph) of the world, they focus on the rewards. And literally, their cortisol decreases their stress in the moments of lying.

Think about it, there was a case, you may remember, Mark Hacking (ph). Mark Hacking (ph) killed his wife, Laurie Hacking (ph). Why? He said he was going to medical school. She was in Utah. She calls North Carolina at the medical school to find out a good place to live. She exposes the fact that the husband never even finished.

He`s undergrad at the University of Utah. And next thing you know, he shoots her dead, chops her up, throws her in a dumpster. The blood is everywhere. Once the lie --

PINSKY: And people -- I think people get a little --

DRIVER: When they do the killing.

PINSKY: Confused. Right. People get confused like they see the people in road rage. They think, oh, their cortisol must go up. They must have -- well, the cortisol can`t go up, but they must have high blood pressure and their heart must go up. But people who are really sort of, let`s say, turned on for lack of a better way of describing it by lying or rage where these sort of problematic behaviors, actually, their heart rate goes down.

They feel calm. They feel gratified by these things and that`s what Janine is talking about here. Good panel, guys. Now, if anyone has a comment or question for our "Behavior Bureau," go ahead and tweet us @DrDrewHLN #behaviorbureau.

Now, we`ve got another husband. This one`s got a bunch of lovers who accused -- who is accused of killing his wife. He is accused of killing his wife, but he`s got a bunch of lovers and they`ve got a lot to say about him after this.


PINSKY: Welcome back. Co-host, Jenny Hutt, stays with me. David Pietz (ph) is on trial for strangling his wife then dumping her naked body in a field. Prosecutors say Pietz had a bunch of affairs. One of his lovers claims he had drugged his wife to coax her in to having a threesome. Good times. Now, a piece of evidence surfaced that may help the prosecutors put him away. Take a look at this.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If you see this tonight, David, you`re where you`re supposed to be.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The suspect in this incident may have started to think that he was going to get away with this one.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Arrested Martin David Pietz, age 34, for the 2006 murder of his wife.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When I got there, she was not there and they hadn`t heard from her, hadn`t been able to (ph) contact her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was eventually found beaten and strangled on the side of the road. Cell phone tracking provided enough evidence to charge Pietz with murder.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Suspicious cell phone call after the disappearance made with Nicole`s phone which was never found. This was her husband, David, caught on surveillance tape three minutes before midnight on a seemingly odd shopping trip.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Witness after witness testified that there was trouble in paradise before David and Nikki Pietz tied the knot.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was just the three of us kissing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I remember kissing him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He told me he cared about me.


PINSKY: Back with us, Mark, Lynn, Danny, and Areva. Lynn, I think -- I believe you`ve been following this case along with us. You have a reaction to this guy?

LYNN BERRY, HLN ANCHOR: Well, I mean, I think the long list of women proves he`s a scumbag. I don`t know if it proves he`s a murderer, and I think that -- really hard with the evidence that we know. The Drano. A lot of scumbags out there. You know, they don`t necessarily mean they`re murderers.

The Drano trip, I mean, if he was buying seven bottles of bleach and a whole bunch of other things, maybe that would be to cover up a crime scene, it`s that cell phone ping. It was a tower near where he worked, a gym where he worked, and it was with her cell phone. That was never found. So, they`re trying to link the two, but the defense quickly jumped on that and said that was a cell tower that was under maintenance because they were having some troubles.

So, that can totally throw that evidence out. And then, there`s also a little piece of DNA evidence that they`ve found in her car, his DNA in her car. It`s her husband. I don`t know how strong that`s going to be. So, it doesn`t seem like they have the smoking gun here.

PINSKY: And Mark, I heard your -- Mark had a peshaw at Lynn`s comment about the scumbag. Go ahead.


MARK EIGLARSH, SPEAKTOMARK.COM: No. Yes. She articulated exactly what I wanted to say, but it`s such a loving, wonderful way. Yes, if this was you`re guilty or not of being a scumbag, they`d have proof beyond all doubt. Where they fall short is how that Drano links back to any crime scene. It`s not there. It`s crazy behavior. Midnight buying Drano, but it could have been doing some cleaning.

And also, the ping as Lynn just said, you know, there was some problems with the cell phone tower. So, the question is, where`s the smoking gun? I read through all this material, I have yet to find one thing where I go, oh yes, no, they`ve got a proof beyond a reasonable doubt in court. I don`t see it.

PINSKY: And Danny, isn`t it true that this all happened years before they ever came after, the spouse?

DANNY CEVALLOS, ATTORNEY: Yes. And there`s a lot of talk about how the time distance -- the elapsed time is bad for the prosecution, but the reality is when the prosecution waits to indict a defendant, the prejudice is really against the defendant. And imagine if you were arrested for something that someone said you did seven years ago and trying to piece together, even with an investigator what the heck you were doing seven years ago at different hours of different days.

In all of these cases where the prosecution waits and sits on an indictment and indicts several years later, the prejudice may be to the prosecution, but ultimately, far more to the defendant.

PINSKY: And Areva, apparently Pietz failed a polygraph test. Do you have any thoughts on that?

AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: He`s a liar. Those are my thoughts. He`s a liar. He said he had a low sexual libido and he wasn`t that into sex, but he had four women were paraded into court saying that they had sex with him. But my question, Dr. Drew is, when did murder become the way you deal with a problem relationship?

We see case after case where people don`t want to be married. And rather than getting a divorce, we hear these, you know, allegations of murder. So, these cases are just puzzling to me. And you, as a doctor, tell us why guys, mostly guys, not picking on men, but so often, men trying to kill their wives when they just want to have an affair?

JENNY HUTT, ATTORNEY: Right. It`s the weirdest thing. Dr. Drew --

EIGLARSH: Tell us, Drew. Why are men doing it, Drew?



HUTT: Dr. Drew, does this -- Wait. Does this mean that --

PINSKY: Mark, you swore me to secrecy on this one, Mark. I promise I wouldn`t tell the secret.


BERRY: Throw it back to Mark.


HUTT: But Dr. Drew, does this mean that now, as women, we`re going to have to say to our men before we get serious or when we get serious, look, I hope you don`t have an affair, but like if you decide to, just promise me you won`t then also kill me.

MARTIN: -- psychological exam, Jenny. Do they need to take a test? Do I need to go home and say, honey, I need you to run to the doctor immediately so I can see if you`re going to kill me if I don`t wash the dishes.

PINSKY: I will tell you what --

HUTT: Exactly. Don`t have an affair and also don`t kill me.

PINSKY: I have two sort of rejoinders to this. One is evaluate your own pickers. If you have a history of picking problematic men or if you had relations with problematic people in family of origin that sort of set your love map towards guys that are problematic, Areva, maybe your sort of precaution is very appropriate.

If you come from a healthy background and you have healthy relationship, you really don`t have to worry about this kind of thing so much. But let me propose before I go to break, why are we looking at the spouse here and there. A bunch of women that wanted to get rid of this lady, as well, right? They all wanted this guy for himself.



MARTIN: But we don`t have any women being charged with murder of this woman, Dr. Drew. We have this husband being charged with the murder. So, I don`t think we can equate that to these women. Now, they`re bad actors, too. I don`t condone, you know, women having affairs with married men. So, these women aren`t the best, you know, women to be, you know, paraded in to court.

So, they`re making us look bad, us that have been in monogamous marriages for many, many years like myself. So, I`m not going to give them a parade.

PINSKY: All right. Fair enough. Next up, one of Nicole Pietz`s co- workers, this is wife`s co-worker, was at the funeral. She is here with some interesting things to say about the husband`s behavior. We`ll be right back.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He told me he cared about me. I asked him why he was getting married and he said that, at that point, it was too late to back out of it.


PINSKY: Too late to back out of it. "Behavior Bureau" is here. Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. Samantha, Daneen, and Tiffanie are with me. And that, which is one of the four women who testified she had been intimate with David Pietz. He is on trial for the murder of his wife, Nicole.

Let me just say for the panel, particularly, I guess Tiffanie, you and I are the licensed mental health people here. When you do unhealthy -- when you engage in unhealthy behaviors, unhealthy things tend to happen, right, Tiffanie? Am I right making that point? There`s a reason we have - -


PINSKY: -- things that are healthy spiritually and personally --

HENRY: You`re absolutely 100 percent correct.

PINSKY: Yes. You end up in a bad place when you start behaving in ways that`s unsavory, unthoughtful to the people you`re supposed to care about.

HENRY: For sure. You know what, Dr. Drew? I say all the time. You have what you`re committed to. You have what -- what you have in your hands, what you have in your marriage, what you have in your relationship is what you`re committed to, and if you`re committed to chaos, if you`re committed extramarital affairs, if you`re committed to giving your time outside of that relationship, guess what, your primary relationship is going to suck.

You`re not going to like it. It`s not going to be what you want it to be, and this guy was spending so much time outside of his marriage that, of course, his marriage wasn`t what he wanted it to be, but that in and of itself does not say you harm or kill your wife. It does not.

PINSKY: Preach, Tiffanie. Jenny.

HUTT: She`s correct. She`s right about that. however, leading up to when a woman or girl finds a right guy, she`s going to make a lot of many mistakes, Dr. Drew. Much of the time and maybe be with some not so savory people in the moment and then find her way to the right guy. I think that happens all the time, too. I think to say that every time you`re in a bad relationship that doesn`t work --

HENRY: That`s how we learn, for sure.

HUTT: That you`re going to end up being that`s forever, and I`m not sure that`s what you`re saying, but I just don`t think that`s true.

PINSKY: But I can`t resist. Danine has that grin again. Go ahead, Danine.

DANINE MANETTE, AUTHOR, "ULTIMATE BETRAYAL": The fact that there was a line of mistresses wrapped around the courthouse, you know, that were OK sleeping with a married man is just pathetic to me. But, with that being said, you know, it`s not just men out there that are running around. We have the Andrea Schneiderman trial, remember?

There are a lot of women out there that are stepping out on their husbands as well, and they are just as pathetic. So, this is not just a man thing. This is just a pathetic individual thing.

PINSKY: Now, joining us on the phone, I have Julie. She was a friend and former co-worker of Nicole Pietz. And Julie, you actually saw David at Nicole`s funeral. Can you tell us -- you observed something about his behavior.

VOICE OF JULIE, NICOLE PIETZ`S FRIEND: Yes. Absolutely. Actually, my mom`s the one that pointed it out to me recently because I didn`t quite remember until she said something. But we were sitting in the front row adjacent to Nicole and -- Nicole`s -- I`m sorry -- Nicole`s family and David and he was completely emotionless at the funeral. Not crying. Nothing. Just sitting there. So, I thought that was --

PINSKY: Yes. It`s kind of peculiar. Sam, I wonder if you have a question for Julie?

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: I do. Julie, yes, he was calm, cool and collected. I found that very odd, too, but I also found, really weird, that he didn`t help participate in looking for her. Am I right about that or putting up flyers?

JULIE: Oh, yes. You`re right about that. I would say about 10 or 15 of us gathered at a mall that was downtown Seattle called West Lake Center because that was the last place that her cell phone was tracked. This is before her body was found, and we all gathered there and we passed out flyers one afternoon in the rain for -- I would say four or five hours.

And he was nowhere to be seen. And another group did it up on Capitol Hill, another area of Seattle. He was nowhere to be seen with that group either.

SCHACHER: That`s weird.

PINSKY: Julie, did she have suspicions or did she ever talk to you about his carrying on with other folks?

JULIE: No. Unfortunately, I don`t have any information as far as that goes. You know, we just had mostly work banter back and forth, friendly, you know, hey, how`s it going? I actually lived in the same apartment as her and him before they moved to the condo that they lived in this last time, but -- and then I worked out of the same gym as her and I worked with her. So, I would see her all the time.

PINSKY: And no evidence that she was worried about this marriage or - - you know, sort of upset by this guy`s behavior.

JULIE: No. No.

PINSKY: Thank you, Julie. We do appreciate it. I`ve got to go to break and we`re going to talk more about these mistresses after this.

VINNIE POLITAN, HLN ANCHOR: Coming up top of the hour on "HLN After Dark," we`ve got one jury here with just one man surrounded by women, but we`ve got two bold questions. Bold question number one, breaking news, Michael Jackson wrongful death verdict. Did the Jackson jury get it right?

RYAN SMITH, HLN ANCHOR: Oh, and then bold question number two, we`re back to the McNeal trial. Today, it`s all about the mistress gypsy. Did the doctor kill for his mistress gypsy? They`re ready to decide both questions tonight.

POLITAN: Two verdicts, tops of the hour, "HLN After Dark."


PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt, and Sam, Danine, and Tiffanie on the "Behavior Bureau." David Pietz on trial for the murder of his wife, Nicole. Friend says that just weeks after his wife`s body have been discovered, David asked if it was too soon to go on a date. Tiffanie?

HENRY: A hot mess, Dr. Drew. There`s no way that if you`re grieving that`s what you`re thinking about. I have seen many aggrieving person on my couch who the last thing that they thought about was sex, let alone, entering into a relationship with anyone else. And, if they did think that and feel that, they haven`t said it out loud.

To say that out loud to a random person, a co-worker, whomever, is just totally inappropriate and it really does bring into question, his judgment and also, you know, his character and whether or not he did this.

PINSKY: Danine, it really does throw up on a lot of questions, plus, all the women that are coming forward, don`t you agree?

MANETTE: Yes. And it`s just so pathetic. It`s so ridiculous that some women are so desperate to have a pair of pants in the house, that they`ll just take any philandering pig. And these are the same women that turn around and talk about all men are dogs and I can`t find a good man. Well, you can`t be part of the problem and then expect to be part of the solution. You know? So, it`s like I don`t even want to hear it.


HENRY: -- but if you`re feeding dog, it`s going to keep coming back at you.

HUTT: It is more his fault than it is theirs. He`s the one with the duty to his wife. They don`t have a duty to her.

MANETTE: Yes. But you can`t complain about -- the men are cheating with somebody. You can`t complain about men being dogs if you`re laying down for them.

PINSKY: There we go. So, Sam, that`s what I expect from you guys. Eventually, you blame the women in this. Somehow, you --


PINSKY: I think they could be the murderers. They could be. It`s possible.


SCHACHER: You guys, first of all --

PINSKY: Sam, have at it.

SCHACHER: All right. First of all, I`m not comfortable blaming her, because she`s not here to defend herself. We don`t know how it was in their marriage and whether or not she really was aware of all the affairs or not. Second of all, you know, both -- all spouses, you know, whether you`re a guy or a girl, you can be guilty of cheating. So --

PINSKY: All right. We have to leave it at that. Enough of the fun and the attacks on both the men and the women from you guys. We`ll have the "Last Call" after this.


PINSKY: Time for the "Last Call" and the "Last Call" goes to a tweet by @BLueJK5. It says, let`s put it up there, "Thank you for putting that into words for us. My next personal ad, any philandering pig will do. Well done. He`s guilty."

Thanks, Jenny. Thank you all for watching. "HLN After Dark" begins right now.