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Nine-Year-Old Has A Knack for Trouble; Undercover Officers Rode With Bikers; Too Old To Drive?

Aired October 8, 2013 - 21:00   ET



DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, he tricked the TSA, he stole luggage off the carousel, he snuck on to a flight to Las Vegas and allegedly stole a car. But he`s not a terrorist. He is simply a nine year old boy. Hear from the boy`s father in the behavior bureau.

And, an elderly driver plows into a crowd of funeral mourners. How old is too old to drive? And should physicians have a say?

Let`s get started.



PINSKY: Good evening.

My co-host is Samantha Schacher, host of "Pop Trigger" on the Young Turks Network.

And coming up, we have new graphic video of that brutal beating of an SUV driver in New York City. Just new material coming out almost every day on that horrible event.

But, first, I`ve got a 9-year-old boy takes a train on his own to the airport, sneaks through security, hops on a flight to Las Vegas alone, without a ticket, without being stopped, without being questioned.

But this apparently just the latest misadventure. A few weeks ago, he allegedly stole a car. I think it was a truck I heard, we`re going to have a picture of it in a minute, and crashed it into multiple vehicles and finally a police cruiser.

Oh, did I mention, this young man is nine? Nine years old.


PINSKY: Take a look at this.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He had to be pretty smart and in the know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A 9-year-old boy somehow slipped past security and gate agents.

UNIDENTIFIED: Passed through the security checkpoints with TSA screening. It`s a mystery how a child could have slipped through the cracks and traveled some 1,300 miles to Las Vegas.

PINSKY: Until after the flight was in the air that the crew became suspicious.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But it`s still unclear exactly how he got past the ticket agents.

SCHACHER: Where are the parents? And how did he get past airport security?

PINSKY: And boy had apparently run away from home and even staked out the airport a day in advance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How did you let 110 people when you have 109 boarded passengers?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The night before, the boy allegedly stole a bag from baggage claim and sat down at a restaurant in the main terminal.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He allegedly stole a car a couple weeks ago.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We just find it amazing that a 9-year-old clearly has the street smarts to do what he did.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He didn`t pay for his meal of chicken tenders and a soda before leaving.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think they should have taken him to the tables and let him play a little, because his luck was going well, you know, once he got to Vegas.


PINSKY: Resourceful, industrious.

SCHACHER: Right, crafty. I mean, this is a crafty, ballsy criminal. Nine years old, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Ah, criminal. Interesting.

Crafty, resourceful, psychopath? We`ll find out.

Joining us tonight: Judge David Young, former Florida criminal court judge and host of "Justice with a Snap", and "Daily Beast" contributor Dean Obeidallah, Loni Coombs, former prosecutor and author of "You`re Perfect and Other Lies Parents Tell", Emily Miller, senior editor of the opinion at "The Washington Times", also author of "Emily Gets Her Gun."

And joining us by phone, Rochelle Olson from "The Minneapolis Star Tribune".

Rochelle, what can you tell us about this kid?

ROCHELLE OLSON, REPORTER (via telephone): Well, he`s nine years old. He`s apparently been pretty crafty in the past, managed to sneak into a water park, he claims. Also, apparently hijacked a truck and drove it in a police chase until he ran into a police car in another city where he was stopped.

PINSKY: So he drove the car to another city, a nine year old. I`m trying to --

SCHACHER: Was he on an apple box?

PINSKY: Was he standing on the seat with a broomstick pushing on the accelerator?

Guys -- Dean, your reaction to this. Go ahead.

DEAN OBEIDALLAH, DAILY BEAST: This kid is amazing. Why are we criticizing him? He`s 9 years old.

We should have a reality show about him. It`s so much better than "Dancing with the Stars." Think what he can do by the time he`s 11.

You know, we should have him run for Congress. I think he`s amazing. I mean, as long as I doesn`t hurt himself, and he is, you know, potentially, committing a crime, he is a young man, very resourceful, very bright, make as plan and follows through with it and I give him a lot of credit for it.

SCHACHER: A least he`s doing something unlike Congress.

PINSKY: You`re scaring.

Emily, we may have guys like that in Congress. That`s what scares me.

Emily, what`s your reaction.

EMILY MILLER, WASHINGTON TIMES: I hope the CIA is at this kid`s bedroom door recruiting him. He`s done what no al Qaeda operative has done. He gets through TSA, while they`re looking through my lip gloss and feeling me up. Gets through TSA and gets on the plane without a ticket and go to Vegas before his parents even know what`s going on. He`s a genius.

SCHACHER: Where are his parents?

PINSKY: We`re going to talk about that. We`re going to hear from the boy`s father in just a second. But, Judge Young, what`s your reaction?

FORMER DAVID YOUNG, FORMER CRIMINAL COURT JUDGE: What`s going on here is that a kid is saying F-U to his parents. It`s obvious to me and it`s sad that his last name isn`t Kardashian that he has no respect, he is rebellious. And I`ve got to tell you, if you look at his past conduct, his future conduct does not bode well for him.

And, Dr. Drew, this kid needs help. He needs to be in some type of facility. If not, I worry about him, but I worry about his future victims. It is not going to be good. And I`ve seen it in person and --

PINSKY: I agree. Dean scares me that he`s signed on so thoroughly with this kid`s behavior.

But, Loni, you were shaking and nodding.

LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, I disagree. I love you, Judge, but I disagree with you. I don`t think this is a big F-U. I think this is a kid who sees something he wants to do. And he figures out how to do it.

YOUNG: Loni, his mother works at the airport.

COOMBS: I know.

YOUNG: When a child does something at the mother`s place of business, what is that telling them?

COOMBS: I`ll tell you why, judge. There is a report that said he had a friend who plays video games who is in Las Vegas. He wanted to see his friend in Las Vegas. He wants to go to the water park, he figures out how to take a train there, and sneak with another family to go to the water park.

He wants to go to the next town, he figures out how to take -- he is very cunning. He`s very manipulative. And I do agree with you. He is at a tipping point.

Someone needs to get ahold of him, take all that energy and put it to good use.

PINSKY: Emily, go.

YOUNG: Is he Charlie Sheen`s spawn?

PINSKY: Emily, go.

MILLER: Let`s look at the problem here, taking the kid aside. Don`t we have a big concern here that this 9 year old kid got through TSA and gate agents and got on a plane?


MILLER: I mean, like I said, I`ve been on a book tour, I`ve been traveling on the planes recently a lot. I get felt up in every city in this country, and they`re going through the most ridiculous things in my bag. But this 9 year old?

You know, and the terrorists, they use kids. So, what`s going to happen? You know, is this giving an opening to al Qaeda on how to get through these airports?


PINSKY: It`s a very interesting point. In fact, the boy`s father is speaking out about what happened. He is pointing a finger at airlines and airport security. I`m not sure if it`s in this comment, but let`s listen.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My son took the trash out and then came back to the house. You know, I don`t understand. You got so much security check at these airports, how can you let a 9-year-old sneak past security, get on the plane without anyone stopping him, questioning him or anything?

We`re not bad parents. We thought he was at a friend`s house.


PINSKY: Well, we can talk about that.

But I first want to talk to Emily who Emily, you`re confusing me a little bit. Are you encouraging TSA to feel you up more and to do more? Which is it? You`re saying on the one hand they`re not secure enough.

I`ve had them call me by name and then go sorry and pull the gloves out and do stuff that I can understand why a trauma survivor could be troubled by it. But, go ahead, Emily.

MILLER: I can honestly say the most action I`m getting lately is from the airports from TSA.


MILLER: I mean, it is like --

YOUNG: What do they look like? Are they good-looking at least?

MILLER: I mean, one put up my boarding pass in my back pocket. A boarding pass, I mean, paper? So --


PINSKY: Have at it. Listen, if it makes the airport more secure, my thing is have it.

It is troubling, Dean, is it not, that a 9 year old kind of slipped through all this?

OBEIDALLAH: It is, and I fly a lot. And I`m a better parody, I look like a white guy. So I get a little more attention.

What I don`t understand is, how do they get on the plane? Because I fly so much. I watch the flight attendants. They look for everyone`s ticket. They go, where you`re sitting?

So, forget TSA, how do you literally get on that Delta Plane?

PINSKY: Loni, do you know?

COOMBS: It`s interesting that the surveillance video actually shows that he goes and he makes conversation with the Delta attendant there at the gate. And he`s talking and so, he bonds with him and the attendant gets distracted. At that point, he just walks into the plane, there`s empty, he sits down and he`s fine. He`s street smart.

SCHACHER: He`s very street smart.

COOMBS: And he`s very confident. Very confident.

PINSKY: Let me describe.

He slips through, pretending to be with another family. He did the same thing to get in a nearby water park apparently. A day before, he boarded the flight, he went to the airport, grabbed some luggage off the carousel. Then as you heard in that video piece, he ordered food at a restaurant, asked a waiter watched that bag that he had stolen while he went to the bathroom, then he just took off.

Dean, you seem very enthusiastic about this. When you tried this sort of behavior, were you a teenager or were you still a child?


OBEIDALLAH: Recently, last week, I tried it. It doesn`t work for adults. When you`re a cute 9-year-old, you get away with a lot.

Let`s be honest. I mean, it is misdirected. But what he`s doing, the thing about engaging in conversation so you don`t get attention, you get on the plane, scoping up doing recon the day before. So, we can mock that part of it, those skills are great.

And if he could be redirected to use that in a positive way, there`s a lot of potential there. Let`s be honest.

YOUNG: That`s why he needs intervention now.

PINSKY: I agree, Judge.


SCHACHER: What`s troubling is that this type of behavior is funny on TV. I mean, we see Kevin on "Home Alone" doing it. We see short stuff in "Indiana Jones" stealing cars and we laugh at it.

So, it`s interesting --

PINSKY: Not funny.

SCHACHER: No, it`s not funny.

PINSKY: It`s not funny, and when we -- listen, you guys, I`m looking at Loni and my attorneys, it can get very harsh as a criminal behavior, this is how it started, guys. And it can get very bad.

The behavior bureau`s going to get into it. It may be already too late as a matter of fact. And I think you`ll see the behavior bureau talking about that.

I`m concerned, Judge, at this point already, is this kid going to be in trouble? Is he going to be punished already?

YOUNG: Well, it`s interesting that they said he`s too young to be charged with a crime. I don`t think so. I think that his behavior and things that he`s done, he may be chronologically too young to be charged with a crime. But he needs to be charged with something to put a hold on him so social services in Minneapolis can --

PINSKY: I will tell you -- I will tell you, guys, I`ve got go to break, but I will tell you, now that you all have dug your own pits here, that when this kid was found out in Las Vegas, he was sent to a social service, it was described as a foster home. He became violent and had to be taken to a hospital, I`m presuming a psychiatric hospital.

So, there`s something more going on here. This is all behavior we can admire in terms of its cunning, but the reality of how people get like this is something we`re going to discuss in the behavior bureau.

He`s sort of a combination of "Home Alone and "Catch Me If You Can". Nine years old.

Later, we`re going to talk about whether an undercover cop, not only witnessed the attack on the SUV driver -- there it is there -- but actually took part in some fashion.

We`ll be right back.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t have an angel. I have a 9-year-old. To me, he`s got a behavior problem. I don`t know what to do. I love my son. I`m not giving up on my son. He`s just confused. So can anyone please help me?


PINSKY: That is the father of the nine year old.

We`re here with the behavior bureau, my co-host, Samantha Schacher.

He was the 9 year old who`s able to sneak in to a flight to Las Vegas, through airport security. But, again, there`s so much more to that story, as I`ve said. Interesting, you listen to that dad, Sam, and he is begging for help. And that`s another clue about what might be going on with this case.

The fact is we were a little loose with that last segment because we have people struggling with understanding, lay people. Now, we`re bringing the behavior. We`re going to get to the bottom of what`s going on with the 9- year-old that behaves like this.

Attorney and Sirius XM Radio host Jenny Hutt joins us, criminologist Casey Jordan, host of "Wives with Knives" on Investigation Discovery, Cheryl Arutt, clinical and forensic psychologist and Wendy Walsh, psychologist and author of "The 30-Day Love Detox".

Wendy, I`m going to start with you. Not at all normal behavior for a nine year old. I want everyone out there to think about how a 9-year-old spends their day, going to school, hanging out with friends, little league. They`re not thinking about taking flights to Las Vegas on their own. In fact, they`d be mortified about that so, I have my own ideas on what`s going with this kid.

Wendy, I`ll start with you. What do you think?

WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, first of all, I take a lot of exception to all the people who are shaming this family and this young boy in the last segment, Dr. Drew. I`d like to say there are no bad children, only misunderstood children. There`s more questions for me than answers. I would like to know what he is running from. I would like to know what role models and examples taught him how to do some of this.

They don`t learn this stuff out of the blue, you know? So, while you say oh, he`s going to have a diagnosis at some point, it will be a major personality disorder. He`s 9 years old, and mostly he`s mimicking what he`s been seeing in his environment.

PINSKY: Well, when I first heard about this story and I`m going to go to Casey next. I think she may agree with more.

I thought about the movie "We Need to Talk About Kevin".


PINSKY: Oh, Casey is yes with me on this. And that`s the fact that, when that father is begging -- when I hear a parent begging for help, it makes me think about this phenomenon. I`m going to show a little footage of what I`m talking about take a look.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What comes after 3?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What comes after 7?


One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There. You can add that together. If you think you`re so smart.


PINSKY: Casey, help people understand what I`m talking about.

CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: I`m going to agree with Wendy that most children are misunderstood. But we need to be open to the reality that some children have organic brain disorders, or molecular disorders, neurological disorders, which make it very difficult for them to be disciplined or understand the difference between right and wrong.

This particular kid does strike me as a kid who is rebelling and perhaps attention seeking. Maybe there`s neglect at home.

But the stealing of the truck, the ramming of 10 other cars, this is beyond. And no matter what he does, he keeps doing it. He is what we would call incorrigible.

I see him not just as "Catch Me If You Can, "Home Alone". I see him as the Barefoot Bandit. If you remember, what`s his name, I have to remember, Colton Harris Moore. And that was the kid of who grew up with incredible, not only fetal alcohol syndrome but many issues related to abuse at the hands of his mother and her boyfriend.

So, we do need to look very carefully at both organic and social explanations, because one can cause the other --

PINSKY: Jenny, I was -- I see you there shaking your head and looking --

JENNY HUTT, XM RADIO: (INAUDIBLE) first of all. He`s a very naughty 9 year old who needs to be locked in his room. His parents who are going to paying attention (INAUDIBLE). That`s A.

B, he`s not like the kid "We Need to Talk About Kevin" (INAUDIBLE). It`s brilliant. That kid is out nightfall (INAUDIBLE) to kill people. That`s not who this kid is.

This kid needs discipline. He needs to use his power for good rather than what he`s doing. He didn`t mean to hit the cars. He wanted to take the car for a joy ride --

PINSKY: Jenny, you have all sat here and talked about psychopathy. We talked about Jodi Arias having a brain disorder. What do you think kids with brain disorders look like when they`re children, adults when they`re children if they`re going to develop this psychopathic conditions? Start young with these kinds of behaviors.

Cheryl, you disagree -- hang on, Jenny. Cheryl, you disagree.

CHERYL ARUTT, PSYCHOLOGIST: OK, I`ve been listening to everybody, Dr. Drew. I have to tell you, I have not one, but two 9-year-olds at home. They`re very intelligent, and they never would do anything like this.

This is something that I would think about how incredibly clever but conniving, manipulative, and I think it is a "Catch Me If You Can" situation. Frank Abagnale, whose life that was based on, was an escape artist. I don`t think locking him at his room would last very long. I don`t know where the surveillance this with this child.

But the notion that now the man from "Catch Me If You Can" is consulting with the FBI and helping use his powers for such constructive things is really great. But we need to know more.

Is this kid torturing animals? Is this kid doing any of the other sociopathic kind of things?

SCHACHER: Well, he`s been investigated -- the family`s been investigated four different times from CPS.


WALSH: There you go. What is he running from is what I ask?

PINSKY: Wendy, I know you, well, Casey, we`ll get to new a second. But, Wendy, you`re sort of crafting a situation where -- we all see bad things happen at home, we do, and those kids, what, they get withdraw, they either act in or act out.

WALSH: Well, this is an act out if I`ve ever seen one.

PINSKY: Yes, but this is an act out -- when I hear parents begging for help from anybody, when I hear that dad was begging for help, I start thinking about kids that have brain disorder.

Casey, your hand was up.

JORDAN: Well, quite simply, when we look at all these case studies, the one common thread seems to be an acute sense of abandonment by these children. And I think that the fact that the father had no idea where his son was really underscores the fact that this kid was neglected at the very least neglected.

I will go with the idea that it might be a cry for help, but I also think that he discipline does not work on this --


PINSKY: Wendy, I know you`re going environment. I see the empathic look on your face, but the fact is this kid became overtly violent and had to be held and stuck in a hospital just because social services was managing him when he got to Las Vegas.

WALSH: Dr. Drew, I want to make it clear. I`m not discounting anything biological, but I am saying that it takes an environment to either enliven or suppress whatever biological predisposition we come into the world with.

And, Jenny, I just want to say one thing when I hear people say kids need more discipline, the hairs on my back go up, because, you know, I have a high-functioning Asperger`s kid and I`ve heard for four years, she just needs more discipline. She needs more discipline.


WALSH: In my case, it was a positive reward system. And she was getting addicted to the negative rewards actually that was increasing the negative behaviors.

PINSKY: But, Wendy, great comment. Jenny, what she`s saying is, that certain kids can go one way or the other if you give them the right --

HUTT: I understand. But I`m thinking, Dr. Drew, that maybe this kid is looking for (INAUDIBLE) what this kid is running from. Maybe this kid is looking for a better life and a better environment.

Clearly, if he`s got Asperger`s or some sort of disorder (INAUDIBLE), I don`t know. I`m not a psychologist, but I think he`s a kid who`s extra naughty, extra daring and very smart.

PINSKY: Very smart for sure.

WALSH: He needs some love and he needs some surveillance.

SCHACHER: Why wasn`t he in school though? If he was the kid that stole this commercial truck, I mean, this was at 2:00 in the afternoon on a Wednesday? A school day.

PINSKY: Yes, and why don`t the parents know what`s going on.

WALSH: They`re also not doing their job in surveillance.

PINSKY: Cheryl, give you the last word.

ARUTT: Well, I think that your point about how this kid got violent when he was presented with an attempt to contain him really says something, because, yes, maybe the parent are not keeping track of this child, that`s no question. But look what this kid does when he is contained.

It`s possible that this is so overwhelming, this is one of these really tough cases that we need to give the parent some support and compassion and look at what this kid really needs.

PINSKY: That`s what I want to be careful of. It`s really easy to point at the family and the parents and go, oh, they`re not doing their job. Sometimes you just create more create more victims, Wendy. That`s what made me think about "When We Need to Talk Kevin" thing, is that sometimes, parents are desperate for support and help and resources.

Wendy, that`s your point too. If you get the right intervention, with the right -- certain kids, outcomes can be greatly improved. But there`s something about this that is -- doesn`t feel right.

Next up -- thank you, panel -- new information about the police involvement in the road rage attack in New York.

And later, an elderly man accidentally so-to-speak drives into a crowd at a funeral. Behavior bureau looks at why this man was on the road and what happened there.

Back after this.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The motorcyclist seen here who repeatedly smashed this car window using his helmet --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They started hitting him with the helmet, right in the floor.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: According to police, he struck a motorcycle that had slowed in front of him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was a lot of blood all over the place.

MILLER: Why nobody came to their defense. And these cops didn`t help them. I mean, they acted out of panic.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When the motorcyclists gave chase, eventually cornering the SUV and then beating and slashed Lien in front of his wife and 2-year-old daughter.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Two off-duty undercover cops who were riding with the bikers are now being questioned.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why did it take so long for him to come forward? This happened on Sunday, he didn`t come forward until Wednesday.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was compelled to report this immediately.

PINSKY: It`s hard to understand why they didn`t put a stop to this or why they didn`t report it right when it happened.


PINSKY: Welcome back.

My co-host is Samantha Schacher.

We`ve got a new twist in the road rage -- well, road rage isn`t really right. The attack on a SUV by a group of bikers in New York City.

We`re now learning that an undercover cop did not just witness the attack, he apparently took part in it, actually pounding on the vehicle. Not clear whether he took part in the actual physical beating of the driver. This cop is reportedly under arrest.

Joining us, Judge Young, Loni, Dean, and Emily.

Dean, do you have a reaction to this?

OBEIDALLAH: Yes. I do. I live in New York City. And this is not the only time you have large groups of motorcycle drivers going through the streets. I can see 59th Street Bridge where I live. Two or three times every summer, there are literally hundreds of motorcycles that drive, that`s fine.

But they block traffic themselves, intimidating drivers who pull off to the side of the road afraid for their own lives, frankly. And I haven`t seen any violence there, but afraid from 180, 100 motorcycles in the streets.

There are 35,000 uniformed police officers in New York City. They should not be allowed on these streets.

PINSKY: Emily, have you heard any information about these cops involved in these beatings?

MILLER: It sounds like -- I mean, obviously, one is under arrest.

You know, this is so -- this is very upsetting about this. It`s obviously, this is at least policeman`s misconduct. Now, it looks like criminal behavior.

I spoke to law enforcement today, federal level and state level, and all said no matter what, they would have obviously not participated in this kind of thing, but even if they are just witnesses to it, they would have stopped it.

There`s no undercover issue here. You`re seeing a man get beat to death, they would have jumped in. We do know that this cop was not armed and did not have his badge, but it`s still no excuse. I mean, any kind of person, any kind of conscience would have jumped in and helped --


MILLER: He should get charged.

PINSKY: let me throw -- and Loni, hold on a second and say, is there anybody on the panel who thinks that this was sort of like a fog of war where maybe one of his cops saw this guy run over and maybe nearly fatally injure somebody. It was like some sort of vigilante impulse. Loni, no?

LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: No. I don`t have any sympathy for the police officers in the situation. And as soon as I heard that there were a UC, an undercover officer in this game, and then I heard that were other off-duty officers in this game, participating in this ride, I knew right then this was going to become a cluster.

And sure enough, here it comes. A UC is sent in to an organization, whether it`d be a motorcycle gang or a drug gang because there is suspected criminal activity. They want this UC to go in --

PINSKY: Loni, I`m going to interrupt you, because I`m hearing -- I heard that the undercover was not part of --not trying to infiltrate this gang. He was just a civilian member of the gang who was an undercover cop in other operations.

COOMBS: OK. OK. Well, that helps, but then he tells --


MILLER: The facts are correct, though. You`re totally correct. This group of gang members, I mean, this motorcycle gang. They`ve all got arrests behind them. Half of them have been in jail. They`ve got gun crimes. They`ve got -- none of them should have been on the streets in the first place. I don`t know what these off-duty cops. We know at least one was hanging out with him -- that`s about.

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: The off-duty cop lied about his involvement.


SCHACHER: Basically, why are you lying?

COOMBS: He first said, look, I didn`t do anything. I wasn`t close enough to help. And so, I was just trying to protect my identity, which, if he wasn`t in this gang that he didn`t need to protect his UC identity in this gang. And then you see on the video that he actually approached the car and groped the back window, which is why he`s charged with this mischief and he`s facing four to seven years depending on how much damage he did, how much the money is going to end up being.

So this guy, not only is he doing something violent, but now, he`s lying about it. And this is a police officer. I mean, they need to do some housecleaning in their police department.

PINSKY: Judge Young, do you want to comment about this?

JUDGE DAVID YOUNG, FORMER CRIMINAL COURT JUDGE: Yes. I do. It doesn`t matter if you`re a judge, it doesn`t matter if you`re police officer or schoolteacher, that is what you are. You chose to do that. And just because you`re not on duty, that does not mean that you have to forget everything that you`re taught in the academy. You`re a police officer 24/7.

And you have to remember, that in this case, you had a man and a woman and a two-year-old child. When they saw all of these bikers, they were scared for their lives. It would be, Dr. Drew, if I saw a bunch of hooter girls coming after me, I`d be panicked.


PINSKY: I`m a little confused, judge. But OK. Hooter girls attack. I want to show you guys a video of this attack that apparently surfaced just a few hours ago. Let`s see if we can show it up full screen here. Apparently, the driver is -- there it is. The driver is already on the ground, and they are stomping on him. You can see that. Bystander.

SCHACHER: It`s barbaric.

PINSKY: The bystander comes in and tries to help break things up. But the stomping of this seemingly defenseless guy.

YOUNG: The officer --


YOUNG: And he didn`t do it, and he deserves to be in jail.

PINSKY: Emily.

MILLER: And Dr. Drew, I said this last night, I will say it again. If Mike Bloomberg didn`t have such -- gun laws, these guys wouldn`t have known that that driver was not armed and couldn`t defend himself. And there were no police around. We know that.


MILLER: There`s no deterrent for criminals when they know no one`s armed.


PINSKY: I`m just going to Twitter to see -- I know Emily`s going to have - - it takes a couple minutes for people to sort of charge up on Twitter. So, I`m seeing what kind of tweets come through, but I know there`ll be a response to Emily and her polemic here. Even though --

MILLER: We went through this last --

PINSKY: Yes. We went through it last night. Go ahead. Finish up, then we`re going to go to break and I`ll bring up some tweets during the commercial. But go ahead, Emily.

MILLER: There`s fear with everybody about this shootout and these westerns, I heard that all day from my Twitter, my Facebook. Where? Guns are fully legal. We have eight million people in this country with carry permits. We have 300 million guns. Where are all these shootout the and wild west things happening? Are they happening in --


MILLER: -- Kansas, in Colorado. No. They`re happening with -- exactly, Chicago, which has the strictest gun control laws in the country.

PINSKY: All right. Leave it there.

YOUNG: Colorado?

SCHACHER: Yes. Colorado.


PINSKY: Listen, I`m not taking a position here, however, let`s remind ourselves that it`s people with --

MILLER: It`s the bad guys with the guns.

PINSKY: Not bad guys even. Some of the mass shootings we`ve had are people not connected to reality.


PINSKY: It gets complicated when we start talking about that, but hang on, I`m going to have to leave it right there. I`m going to bring in the "Behavior Bureau" to help me out with this.

And later, a man plows his car into a crowd, actually coming out of funeral. Many are seriously injured. "Behavior Bureau" is going to look at that, too, and whether he should have even been on the road. We`re back in just a moment.

VINNIE POLITAN, HLN ANCHOR: Coming up top of the hour on "HLN After Dark," the next big trial, Utah versus Dr. Martin MacNeill accused of drowning his wife in the tub. Proseuctors say it was for his mistress, his mistress named Gypsy.

RYAN SMITH, HLN ANCHOR: So, our in-studio jury is all over it, but the bold question, was the doctor under gypsy`s spell?

POLITAN: We shall find out by the end of the hour. A verdict from our 12 jurors, "HLN After Dark."



SERGIO CONSUEGRA, BYSTANDER AT BIKER ATTACK ON SUV: They started hitting him with a helmet on the floor. There was a lot of blood (ph) all over the place. I approached the man because I saw him almost dead on the floor. I stood between them and the man lying on the floor. And I say to them, that`s it. Let it go.


PINSKY: Back with Samantha Schacher and my "Behavior Bureau." And before the break, Sam, Emily was making some interesting remarks as my "Behavior Bureau" about guns and how it would affect this attack on the SUV driver by the bikers in New York City. You may be surprised that most of the tweets we got were supportive of Emily`s position.

Let me just throw one up here. This is the sort of thing we were getting during the break. And please, if you feel differently, you can send me @DrDrew or @DrDrewHLN. "I`m with Emily. Those bikers would have thought twice if he had pulled a legal firearm out to protect himself. #2nd amendment."

SCHACHER: Or use it against him. Are you kidding me? Do you know how many times that a perpetrator will actually take that person`s own weapon who is protecting themselves and then use it against them?

PINSKY: I don`t, actually. That`s not something I like to think about, but Cheryl is nodding her head.


CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., CLINICAL & FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: -- very, very high statistically. People who have guns for protection, there are a lot of stats out there, and I haven`t had a chance to really pull them up, but I could have them ready for you if anybody`s interested, we can tweet about them.

But, for the gun to be used against you or for you to -- if you have a gun in the house, the chance of you dying in a gun-related homicide or suicide, even an unintentional shooting go up astronomically. It sounds like a good idea, but if this guy had pulled a gun being surrounded by these other guys who might have also had guns, even if he had gotten off a shot and killed somebody, he might be in prison, never see his two-year-old grow up --


PINSKY: I get you guys, but we`re --


PINSKY: I want to jump off the gun conversation and talk to someone who`s joining me by the phone. His name is Luther Williams. He`s the attorney for Robert Sims who`s been charged in connection with the beating of the SUV driver. Luther, your client has been charged with attempted assault, gang assault, criminal possession of a weapon. How are you going to defend him? What is his defense?

VOICE OF LUTHER WILLIAMS, ATTORNEY FOR ROBERT SIMS: Well, it`s not him. I mean, first of all, you`ve got to understand that a mere indictment does not mean that there`s proof beyond a reasonable doubt that he did any of these things. One of the questions that we had is the appearance of a charge that charges something like criminal possession of a weapon without advising us of what the weapon is.

So, we don`t know if it`s supposed to be a shoe, a hand, or what at this point. We were, we were advised by the district attorney and the police initially that we were merely a witness. And as such, we gave a statement.

PINSKY: OK. And Jenny, you have a question for Mr. Williams?

JENNY HUTT, ATTORNEY: Well, I was just saying -- well, you`re saying it wasn`t him. But you`re not contesting that he was there. You`re admitting that he was there and a part of it, just that he wasn`t the one who did the beating? What are you asserting?

WILLIAMS: Well, I`m not asserting anything. I`m just simply saying he was a member of the group. I mean, you guys have been referring to it a pact. These are not the hell`s angels. These are number of bicycle groups, but they`re also individual citizens who just like to ride --

PINSKY: We`re looking at a video, Mr. William of him -- hang on a second, Jenny -- of him running up to the door of the SUV --

WILLIAMS: No, you don`t see him. That`s not true.

PINSKY: That`s not him.

WILLIAMS: That`s somebody else.


WILLIAMS: OK. And the thing is that you don`t see my client doing anything. I mean, he`s not one of the guys banging on the door. He`s not anybody stomping anybody. However, my client is now in jail, pending $200,000 insurance company bond.

PINSKY: Casey, I wonder if you have a question for Mr. Williams?

CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Well, to what extent do you want to talk about this as a conspiracy? If he is standing by, do you think he has -- and I know this is statute driven in the state of New York. Do you think he has a legal obligation to try to stop his friends from attacking the SUV?

WILLIAMS: Well, what he did was when the fell low got run over, he nurtured to the individual, Mr. Misea (ph). So, he was quite busy. You understand. He was taking care of Mr. Misea (ph). And I had a conversation with him, and I suggested to him that, you know, this poor guy that got run over, you guys might have caused him to have some problems with respect to his back. He advised me that Mr. Misea (ph) was choking in his own blood.

PINSKY: Wow. I mean -- again, you guys -- Wendy, I see that you are stricken by this story. That`s the lack of clarity about what was happening, when it was happening. That`s the part that I have compassion about with this story. You know, there`s a lot -- it was a fog of war almost.

WILLIAMS: Well, I think -- and I think we also ought to remember, another case, I mean, I noticed that most of the folk on your panel seem to be rather young, but some of us remember the Central Park rape case where these kids were -- I`m sorry?

PINSKY: They do remember. Casey remembered, but thank you, though, nonetheless for --


PINSKY: Mr. Williams, I`ve got to leave it right there. I`m up against the clock. Thank you so much.

We`re going to switch gears and talk about a man who plowed into a crowd and injured many and should he have been driving. We`re back with that after this.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have a mass casualty incident at a funeral.

PINSKY (voice-over): The cause, an elderly driver allegedly plows into dozens of people leaving a funeral. Police say the vehicle driven by an 86-year-old man rapidly accelerated onto a sidewalk. Nine were injured, including a five-year-old boy. Tonight, two of those victims remain in serious condition.


PINSKY (on-camera): Back with my co-host, Samantha Schacher, and the rest of the "Behavior Bureau," Jenny, Casey, and Wendy. And we`re discussing a man who plowed his car into a crowd at a funeral. Also joining the panel, Hattie, she -- I`m sorry, before -- I`ve got to go to a reporter. It`s Glen Beeby on the phone. He is with KBOI in Boise, reporting on the story. Glen, can you give me the latest?

VOICE OF GLEN BEEBY, REPORTER, KBOI: Well, what we know right now is that two people are still hospitalized. Of those, one was a woman. She has been upgraded to fair condition tonight, but the young five-year-old boy, he still remains in serious condition. I`m overhearing from witnesses that were on the scene that his legs were run over by the car.

And he still remains in serious condition tonight. And one of the things that obviously we`re hearing from witnesses as well is that it appears that the elderly gentleman who was driving appeared to be having trouble getting that car into gear before the car rocketed forward, hitting all those people and then coming to a stop.

As you can see from the damage to the car, it was devastating, but people here are just trying to recover from it.

PINSKY: Glen, do we know what was going on with the driver? The fact is I`ve dealt with many cases like this in my practice, and usually, the driver has a medical event or is deteriorating into some sort of neurological problem that was missed. Do we know anything about him?

BEEBY: Well, I was actually on scene when he got out of the car. He got out under on his own power. He did have a cane, but he didn`t appear to suffer from a stroke or a heart attack or anything like that. Right now, both investigators and family members who were on scene say this just appears to be a really tragic accident.

PINSKY: Joining us is -- thank you, Glen -- joining us is Hattie. As I said, she is 77 years old, herself, and she`s about to get her very first driver`s license. Congratulations, Hattie.


PINSKY: That accident occurred in Idaho where state law says drivers age 50 to an older must renew their license in person every four years. In New York, there`s no such requirement. Do you think there should be more careful monitoring in the elderly by the DMV or by licensing organizations, Hatty?

RETROAGE: I think there should be more careful monitoring of every age, because one of the things you hear, the word elderly, and right away, a whole bunch of expectations show up, and they`re negative. So, it could have been a young person that this happened to.

So that when you`re driving a vehicle, anyone who has to be behind that wheel should have some testing or some sort other than the simplistic ones we have now, because everything is more complicated, and we`ve got to find out what constitutes safety and driving and who`s capable of doing this.

But to charge someone because they`re elderly, if we don`t change the concept of elderly, we`re going to think that the old people are going to be doing everything wrong, killers --

PINSKY: Well, I agree with Hattie, Casey, that as a physician, I`m often called upon to make these assessments. The DMV reserves their final say on all this. And sometimes, I`m very frustrated with their assessments.

RETROAGE: I would say so, because you get a small eye test. Who tests reflexes? Who tests performances?

PINSKY: Casey, finish me up. I`m out of time. But Casey, give me ten seconds on that.

JORDAN: Well, just that one of the things that Michigan does that I think is very effective is that people can anonymously turn in their elderly parents so that they can get a notice from the DMV that requires them to come down for testing.

PINSKY: We do that in California, too. We do that in California, too, but it`s very complicated. We`re going to keep this conversation going after the break.



PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Samantha Schacher, and the rest of the "Behavior Bureau," Jenny, Casey, Wendy, and Hattie. Wendy, you were nodding and smiling when Hattie was talking. What were you thinking?

WENDY WALSH, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, you know, Hattie, congratulations you`re getting your driver`s license or the first time. But please, I hope you do listen to your physician and your family and anybody else who want to check you out.

Instead of just the DMV, because listen, I passed the DMV test with glowing colors with nothing in my eyes, but Dr. Drew, I use these to read my iPhone, then I`m switching this to drive at night. I wouldn`t dare drive at night without my glasses and I`m only 51 years old. Can you imagine if I were in my 80s?

RETROAGE: But we don`t know what you`ll be in your 80s. This will point - -

WALSH: Could be worse.

RETROAGE: -- well, you don`t actually know that. This isn`t my first driver`s license. I got it many years ago. This is the first time I`ll be actively driving on the island of Anguilla. So, it`s different. But when you hear that people are doing horrific things on the road, what this points to is not that it`s because they`re old, but the tests, you just go in and you get your license renewed. There`s nothing that tests anything at any age.

PINSKY: Hattie, you`ve got a great point. And I think it`s incumbent on all of us to be make sure that we don`t have any liabilities that can make us unsafe drivers. I agree with you.

RETROAGE: Exactly. At every age.

PINSKY: "Last Call" after this.


PINSKY: "Last Call" goes to Samantha Schacher.

SCHACHER: I just learned that the nine-year-old is back in his hometown. So, I`m curious to find out if there will be any more shenanigans tomorrow.

PINSKY: We will keep an eye on it and report on exactly that tomorrow. "HLN After Dark" right now.