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Progress on Shutdown Talks; Interview with Donald Trump; Interview with Rep. Himes and Rep. Cole

Aired October 10, 2013 - 21:00   ET


PIERS MORGAN, CNN ANCHOR: This is PIERS MORGAN LIVE. Welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world. Breaking news tonight, they are talking, and that after 10 days of government shutdown and no talking really is breaking news.


REP. ERIC CANTOR, (R) VIRGINIA: We'll come back to have more discussion. The president said that he would go and consult with the administration folks. And hopefully we can see a way forward after that.


MORGAN: We're probably just kicking the can down the road, but should we take any deal that we can get at the moment? Well Wall Street apparently thinks a deal is close, and we were actually seeing stocks soaring today.

I've got tonight the man who wrote the book on "The Art of the Deal," quite literally. The always outspoken Donald Trump and his blunt message for Washington.


DONALD TRUMP, CEO, TRUMP ORGANIZATION: An extension is not what you need. You need the overall deal. We have to make a big deal, and it has to be the proper deal for the country.


MORGAN: Also asking him about the Trump trademark, you're fired.

And again that was our big story both sides finally taking -- talking in Washington. Dana Bash is on Capitol Hill, Jim Acosta is at the White House. Welcome to you both. It's been a long 10 days. Dana are we seeing a puff of political white smoke?

DANA BASH, CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I wouldn't call it white smoke yet but we're definitely at the point where we could at least look up to the tower and see if there could be smoke anytime soon, which is a lot further away than we were just a few hours ago, Piers. The meeting at the White House by all accounts was productive, and it's not just, I think the diplo-speak word productive, it genuinely was. But the whole concept of it was that it was pretty tough at the beginning and then at the end they got to the point where they decided that they were going to have a discussion not just about the debt limit and increasing that for six weeks which is the Republican plan that they formally announced this morning, but also the President demanded that they all - that they talk about reopening the government and why not start beginning those discussions now.

Listen to what Republican Congressman Pete Sessions told me about the nature of those private talks tonight.


BASH: Did you clash with the President is that fair to say?

REP. PETE SESSIONS, (R) TEXAS: I did. But what I think is fair to say is that the President and all the members there were very respectful to each other and had a clear understanding of what we were trying to accomplish.

BASH: How did you - What did you clash over, was it about how to reopen the government and went to do it?

SESSIONS: If you focus on things that might be clashing, those are probably be in a book someday.


BASH: So what is going on now, current events are that there are still discussions going on even at this late hour, Piers. The members of House leadership staff is still on the phone with the White House which is a remarkable feat and given the fact that there was no discussion at all just a few hours ago.

MORGAN: Well let's go the White House, Jim Acosta a lot of frenzied activity later afternoon and evening. Is it still ongoing? I hear that Joe Biden is still trapped inside the White House is that a good sign the great deal maker hasn't emerged yet?

JIM ACOSTA, SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I think that is a good sign, Piers. But also the fact and a Democratic source familiar with this conversation between the President and House Republicans said to me that they didn't come out of this meeting swinging at each other. There were no e-mails fired back and forth between one other saying all kinds of nasty things about one another. That is basically been the pattern for the last 10 days of this government shutdown.

But look Piers this is what I was told by a Democratic source familiar with what went on inside that meeting. Apparently the President said to House Republicans, "Look, I like this offer that you're bringing to me for a short-term debt ceiling increase." The President said that was a good thing. But wait a minute, how are we suppose to negotiate in good faith with the governments still shutdown. So why don't you reopen the government is essentially what the President said to House Republicans.

At that point, according to this Democratic source, House Speaker John Boehner went back to the President and said, "Well, we want some items in return for reopening the government." But he did not lay out specifically what those items were, that is going to be coming later. The President then reminded House Republicans at that point according to this source that he is not offering concessions in exchange for opening the government.

So it seems when it comes to this issue of reopening the government, Piers they're - they are at a standstill. They are at an impasse. As for this issue of the debt ceiling increase, it sounds like they are where they were earlier today. The President would sign a short-term debt ceiling increase that would avert default. That would avert what many people here at the White House have described as an economic nuclear bomb. So at least they feel good about that.

And as Dana was saying they came out of this meeting feeling good because at least they were having a dialogue. At least they were talking to one another and not exchanging insults in Washington, Piers that's progress.

MORGAN: Come to tell me when is that, you know, abusing each other in public you see in progress. Anyway, Dana and Jim thank you both very much indeed.

Normally to take the (inaudible) from talking the actual deal. Well, joining me now two congressmen from opposite sides of the aisle maybe they can find some points of agreement. A Democrat, Jim Himes of the Financial Services Committee and Republican Tom Cole, the Deputy Majority Whip. Welcome to you both you're smiling. Has the good news ...

REP. JIM HIMES, (D) CONNECTICUT: We're not restrained.

MORGAN: ... (inaudible) thrown out to you all you all feeling happy is there going to be a deal? Let's start with you Jim Himes, what are you sensing?

HIMES: Well, I'm encouraged. It's -- I'm cautiously encouraged. On the one hand, one thing that encouraged me -- it encourages me is that after the meeting today, nobody ran for the microphones, neither the President nor the Republican leadership ran for the microphones and that's always a good sign that people are getting serious and really working towards a solution.

And then I'm also gratified to see that the people are really focused on making sure we don't default on the full faith and credit. The government shutdown is uncomfortable. It's hurting a lot of people, but the fire we were playing with on default was really a horrifying thing.

MORGAN: Tom Cole, I mean it seems everyone's agreed it's going to be like a six-week extension on the debt ceiling. Everyone's going to accept that's the most sensible course of action. Everyone agrees the government should be reopened. The only question I guess now for the Republicans given a pretty awful polls that have come out tonight with more and more Americans blaming Republicans is what kind of concessions if any they get as part of this process.

How do you see the deal which is probably pretty close to being done now actually being completed?

REP. TOM COLE, (R) OKLAHOMA: Well I agree very much actually with what Jim had to say. I think we've made some real progress both sides including recognize you don't jeopardize the good faith and credit United States. Both sides are talking and both sides have agreed to continue the discussion. I'm not too worried about the particulars of what they'll decide on. It does seem to me that opening the government sooner rather than later is a good thing to do. Look we're going to pay this folks anyway which was the right thing to do, over half the government is up and operational with the Defense Department and the central workers. You know, why would you keep paying people and not giving them the opportunity to work. So we got to do that.

But I think probably the key thing from Republican standpoint is that there is a negotiation. And honestly, there's a time limit not that it couldn't be renewed or extended. I think that there's a serious negotiation there would be. But each side's given a little bit here now and that sets the framework out for productive talks.

MORGAN: Jim Himes, I've got a great interview with Donald Trump coming up later in which he really lays into Washington generally for the lack of ability as he sees it to negotiate and to get business done. Have you got anything to say that this doesn't look very good the way this is all played out?

HIMES: Well, first of all, I never sort about looked to Donald Trump for what is true and good in this world, but also look, Donald Trump in his business when he doesn't like how something is going, he can just do as he does and say you're fired. None of us can say that to each other. We are all elected by very different people and different part to this country and, you know, Donald Trump doesn't necessarily have to work with people. We have to find ways to work with each other. We can't fire each other and that creates a very different dynamic here. And again, today it looks like maybe we're looking up on that count.

MORGAN: Well you can't be fired by the American public of course.

COLE: No, every two years they get their chance.

MORGAN: Tom Cole, do you think that Donald Trump is a force of evil in this world as Mr. Himes seemed to be implying at?

COLE: No. Look, I never having met by Donald about to make a judgment about him, but look I've suggest what we're about here is part of a larger pattern of it. We had a lot of trouble. We came to a budget deal in April of 2011, had a lot of fights and came to a budget deal in August, it should be a debt ceiling be on August of that same year, had the fiscal cliff earlier in January of this year, had a Continuing Resolution deal in March. All four of those together had narrowed the deficit that's why it's about half of what it was three years ago. All four of them were bipartisan it looks to me like we were on the edge of doing the same thing again, but perhaps on a bigger way and more productively.

MORGAN: I want to play a quick clip from - it's an interview with Ted Cruz that came out of tonight's Crossfire. Let's watch what he had to say.


VAN JONES, CO-HOST CNN CROSSFIRE: They followed you into a ditch and now there is obviously no chance that ObamaCare is going to be defunded and we're on the brink of a horrific default. Do you think that in the reflection of your own heart, you might say, "You know what, I'm a new kid here, I think you owe you guys an apology."

SEN. TED CRUZ, (R) TEXAS: You know, Van I know you desperately want to change the topic form ObamaCare. And it's striking that ...

JONES: From the default?

CRUZ: Hold it let me answer you a question.

JONES: The discussion is world economy.

CRUZ: Van let me answer your question. Listen Democrats in this town do not want to discuss ObamaCare, why because it isn't working.


MORGAN: I mean what is interesting isn't it Jim Himes is that actually ObamaCare suddenly disappeared off the talking points here because everyone recognized it was becoming the great obstruction to get any deal done. Suddenly you got Paul Ryan writing it up at least but he doesn't even mention it.

HIMES: Yeah, look, I, you know, Democrats do want to talk about the Affordable Care Act because the CNN Wall Street Journal poll that was released today showed that in the last week the Affordable Care Act has actually risen seven points in popularity over this last week.

Now by the way, we should all be willing to look it at ObamaCare and say what's good and what's bad and let's have those negotiations. Absolutely let's have those negotiations. Let's make a law that some people disapprove of better. Let's do that. It's hard though to look at the strategy that was led by Ted Cruz in the Senate and say that ended up well from the standpoint of public perception for the opponents of ObamaCare.

MORGAN: Well Donald Trump, I know you like very much, he gives a rousing defense of the Tea Party later. That comes. For now, Jim Himes and Tom Cole thank you both very much indeed. COLE: Thank you.

HIMES: Thank you.

MORGAN: We are close watching the White House and Capitol Hill for any signs of a deal. When we come back, I'll talk to a man whose saying just how bad things are doing in Washington. Believe it or not it's been worse than this. Plus, this is him, Mr. Deal himself Donald Trump, his advice to the President at this crucial time.


MORGAN: Back now with our Breaking News everyone's talking about. They are talking in Washington, quite extraordinary. Joining me now is CNN's John King.

John King, astonishing news tonight. Politicians who are paid to talk to each other are talking to each other. Now look, you are the man to talk to you here, where is this deal in the devil of the detail going to get done do you think?

JOHN KING, CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well that's a good question and I would still say if. I would still say if there's all indications tonight from House Republican sources and from the White House that they do expect a deal. And they are actually hopeful that by early in the new week meaning, working through the weekend, that the government will reopen fully. And when will it get done?

Now, the President said today to the House Republicans he is more than willing to talk to them about tax reform, more than willing to talk to them about Social Security and Medicare, but only after they reopen the government. And to reopen the government it's the President's position to have to drop any notion of either defunding or derailing ObamaCare.

And so now that's Speaker Boehner's task going back to those 30 or so members of his caucus and saying, "We need to do this. Politically, we are suffering. We need to do this and we're going to move on."

The question is how hard of a sell is that for John Boehner but that's the big challenge tonight, Piers. Now we get into many more layers of this, but the first challenge for the Republicans is if they want to get the President to the table, they've got to reopen the government.

MORGAN: I mean the big pressure on the Republicans and Speaker Boehner in particular is there's a new NBC Wall Street Journal poll tonight, 53 percent of Americans now blaming the GOP, 31 percent blame the President. So now a big widening gap and to put it in context in '95 the last shutdown of the same stage 47 percent blame the GOP, 27 percent blamed Bill Clinton.

But, you know, the -- if the GOP we know from our sources are getting very twitchy. Senior leaders they're thinking this is just not working for us, this strategy so we have to extricate ourselves and try and get whatever concessions we can. Is that your take on it?

KING: Yes, you just had a great conversation with a Democrat and a Republican. The Republican was Tom Cole, he once ran the Republican Congressional Campaign Committee, they raised the money, helped support the candidates running for office. He gets the nuts and bolts of how this works, Piers. And when he sees a poll like that, he knows that that means going into an election year where the Republican should do fabulously. It's the six-year election (ph), the President's midterm election.

Look at all the glitches with the roll out of ObamaCare this week. And yet, what did Republicans do? They turned this election tide on themselves, a lot of time to recover. But they've turned it on themselves by shutting down the government.

So the leadership wants to reopen the government, the question is those 30 or so Tea Party members and like-minded conservatives who wanted to plant the flag and fire at ObamaCare, most of them, Piers, go home to districts where they don't care about that poll because they will get 55, 60, 65 percent.

The problem is will this now put 10 or 12 moderate Republicans from places like Pennsylvania, in places like upstate New York well this protest movement caused some seats that the Republicans would have probably safely held next year and change the dynamics of the election.

So they may well get -- Republicans may get policy wins out of this with entitlement reform, with some changes to ObamaCare. The question is how high of a political price did they pay to get them?

MORGAN: (inaudible) stuff, John King, thank you very much indeed.

I now want to bring in the man who's seen the nation's capital at its very worst, Terry Lenzner, well of course the investigator from the Nixon to the White House, as a counsel to the Senate Watergate Committee. He is also the author of "The Investigator: Fifty Years of Uncovering the Truth". Also joining me is Marc Lamont Hill, the host of HuftPost Live. Welcome to you both.

Terry, you're a legend, the great investigator. You've been in the grubbiest parts of Washington history from Watergate onwards.


MORGAN: There is a sense, I mean that as a compliment, there is a sense at the moment that things have never been worst, never been so poisonous in Washington. What is your take with all your experience at this?

LENZNER: Well, going back to my experience on the Watergate Committee which you referenced. That could have been hugely potential for falling as a constitutional crisis. After all, we were talking about looking at the President of the United States and possibly impeaching him and that can't be anything more controversial serious and a political basis for that other than that.

And what I found was working for Senator Irvine and working with Greg Thompson of the Republican Party that we had complete agreement on almost everything, every subpoena that we issued was unanimously voted on and we were then -- because the President refused to comply with the subpoenas. I authored a subpoena to compel the President to produce the documents and the tapes and the Republicans on the committee again and the Democrats voted unanimously to support that which is pretty dramatic.

MORGAN: So what this seems to mean then? There was a respect for the law ...


MORGAN: ... and for authority and indeed for each other ...

LENZNER: And for each other.

MORGAN: ... in doing business together. This is the point isn't it, Mark, we've talked a lot through this crisis and it all comes down it seems to me. And Donald Trump said something very interesting about this because he's obviously, he's a great businessman, he's a deal maker.

And so look, you just see in the end have to get in the room and you rough it out, you know, you verbally beat each other up and you get to a point of consensus he can't understand why that isn't happening. Except that he says, as people will see in a moment that John Boehner and Barrack Obama just don't get on very well. They don't like being in the same room together.

MARC LAMONT HILL, HUFTPOST LIVE HOST: That's part of it. They also don't have the same endgame in mind. When we are in a business situation, we both trying to get a deal, Donald was trying to get the best deal possible. Here, people have very different visions of what the endgame could look like. Within the Republican Party itself there's lots of in-fighting, there's a very different idea from the Tea Party, the extremist to the sort of moderate Republicans about what this should look like.

But right now, I think the Republicans realize that they've overplayed their hand that they can't go any further with the strategy that they've developed and then they have to come to some sort of resolution and save face with this tax reform stuff.

Democrats on the other hand have to be wise. They can't dance in the end zone and in spite the filibuster (ph), "Hey, what about ObamaCare? We got rid of ObamaCare." They have to actually move the ball forward and enjoy this victory for once.

MORGAN: I mean the really clumsy thing here, Terry, is that actually if they hadn't done what they done in shutting down the government, I think the Republicans would have had a fantastic week attacking the implementation of ObamaCare ...


MORGAN: ... which has being fairly chaotic. The actual system has not been working and they could have a field (ph) there, probably gained a lot of ground against the Democrats. But instead they're on the back foot of the end of it.

LENZNER: And it goes back to ignoring the merits of the case and making it totally partisan, totally personal which is not our experience was going again back to the 1970.

MORGAN: Have you ever known Washington be so partisan vicious frankly, is this how'd become?

LENZNER: It started actually, my recollection is subsequent to the Nixon effort which ended up the way it ended up with his resignation. And after that I think there was such a hatred and frankly amnesty, animosity between the two parties that it exacerbated the relationships and there was never ever close to an effort to bring them back at -- bring them together as personalities and experienced political people.

MORGAN: Do you think the message you're getting through, I mean all the polls in the last few days has shown ever more deteriorating view of Congress in totality.

HILL: Yeah.

MORGAN: From the American people who've just been -- I mean, every since I've been on air in CNN, 23 year now it seems this perpetual crisis emotion in Washington and paralysis and the poll is -- you can just go online now.

HILL: No they absolutely can't because now it's not even about the merits of the issue per se, now it's actually we're just tired of Congressional fighting. I think Democrats again expected that because they -- I think they were right on this issue in principle because they had the upper hand strategically they thought that they could just run up the clock and eventually Republicans would give up or Republicans would look bad. The truth is Republicans are awful in this, their polls are terrible. But people aren't particularly happy with Congressional Democrats and may not particularly happy with President Obama, they actually think that he could exercise more leadership whether we agree or not isn't the point, the point is nobody is winning in this. I think they're finally getting that.

LENZNER: But to Barack's point if I got to say.

MORGAN: Yes so.

LENZNER: The question I have is why -- they knew there was going to be a problem, they knew there was a potential crisis, and they're doesn't seem to be any significant effort to face in some discussions that might have done some good to at least alleviate if not avoid this kind of a shutdown.

MORGAN: But just -- calm down, sir, just come down all of you just this moment, doesn't it come down to it's got so poisonous, that actually the first talk surprisingly (ph) on both sides but predominantly the moment the Tea Party sign the Republicans is to be negative, is how can we stop, stop happening whereas the great American years were built around positivity and we make stuff happen.

HILL: There have been (inaudible) to you. I mean there have always been moments from every Congressional session whether Republicans want to stop Democrats, the Democrats want to stop Republicans and the policy itself was secondary and tertiary. So, let's not be romantic about this. However, this is the most dysfunctional state we have as the American people have to do is forcing to do their job, they won't do it and we can force them to.

MORGAN: I'm an incurable romantic where there's love there's hope. Terry it's been great to meet you.

LENZNER: Thank you.

MORGAN: (inaudible) about "The Investigator: Fifty Years of Uncovering the Truth" we'll be recommending that. Marc, thank you for coming in. Good to see you again.

Well, keep watching the White House and Capitol Hill for any signs of deal and we'll bring you those of course the moment it happens if it happens. And coming up the biker of police who say started this shocking confrontation with a family in the SUV. Hear his side of the story.

Plus the man who wrote the book on, "The Art of the Deal", Donald Trump and we'll be talking about him tonight. Well, we'll get to hear from him.


MORGAN: Biker Christopher Cruz stopping shot last week in front of an SUV on New York City Highway. The moment the police say led to a brutal attack on the driver of the SUV, Mike Edwin Mieses also injured in the attack, as the driver plowed to the crowd. Seven bikers now facing charges, one of them are (undercover) caught.

Well, joining me now is Christopher Cruz's attorney, H. Benjamin Perez, and Defense Attorney Joe Tacopina, also Edwin Mieses and his family attorney Gloria Allred. Welcome to you, a tram brook (ph) of top lawyers.

Let me start with you Benjamin Perez it seems to me Christopher Cruz, your client, is almost the fulcrum of all this because in the video that we just watched there again everyone have seen this now, he is the guy that slows down that the SUV runs into which seems to precipitate the whole thing.

Now, your client has been charged of reckless driving and unlawful imprisonment, what is your position with him?

H. BENJAMIN PEREZ, ATTORNEY OF CHRISTOPHER CRUZ: Well, my position with my client is that he committed no crime. If you look at the video you see that the bump that occurred between them was a slight bump, there was nothing -- it wasn't a bump that knock them off of his motorcycle.

MORGAN: OK, I'll ask (inaudible) what is your client doing in slowing down so dramatically there.

PEREZ: My client is making a lane change like any other motors would make lane change. I think that the fact that he's on a motorcycle much has been made about him making this lane change, but if you see the video he makes his lane changes ...

MORGAN: Why is he looking behind him to make a lane change?

PEREZ: Well, he's on a motorcycle, you got to understand he's not in a motor vehicle where, you know, you're looking at your side mirrors and you feel a little bit more comfortable, safer.

So, he makes his lane change, he looks over his right shoulder.

MORGAN: Why is he making no attempt to change lanes?

PEREZ: Well, if you look at the video he sees -- he looks over his shoulder twice, right? The first time he looks over his shoulder is over his right shoulder and at that point he's looking at the vehicle behind him. The second time he looks over his shoulder is his left shoulder where he is -- if you look at his head it's pointing in the direction of the left lane, he is looking for a friend who was coming up behind him and he expects to come right off in the left lane and that is when the bump occurs.

MORGAN: OK, Joe Tacopina you're not officially representative of the Lien family, that the SUV drivers and his family, but you're obviously -- you have an opinion that is on their side. What do you make of this defense of Mr. Cruz?

JOE TACOPINA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, with all (ph), obviously, I'm not defending or speaking to Benjamin's client where he is, but from a video standpoint, you know, I just don't buy it, I mean, he wasn't making a lane change.

MORGAN: What do you think he's doing?

TACOPINA: They were surrounding that vehicle obviously -- look, don't forget this has been precipitated by 200 911 calls that these guys are riding, terrorizing the West Side Highway in Manhattan, one of the busiest streets in the country in that sort of pot-like (ph) mentality surrounding vehicles that got in their way and that's exactly what they did here and what I believe Mr. Cruz was doing was basically going to slow this guy down and basically surround these guys which they eventually did. There's no indication to change lanes. He was looking at opposite side which -- he was looking behind him basically the challenge and they got to come out to him.

MORGAN: And what do you think what Mr. Lien then did in terms obviously it caused some injuries and serious injuries to people.

TACOPINA: Well ...

MORGAN: He raised -- and we've all seen the video, but do you think that there is a proper defense for what he did?

TACOPINA: Now is your proper defense is there is clearly, in my opinion, no wrong turn, this is a tragedy what we're seeing here but what I'll say is this, the law is if you reasonably believe that he was in danger when he acted then he is good to go.

And understand this throw yourself into parent mode on top of that he has a two-year old in the back. These guys had been surround his vehicle basically since the, you know, Midtown all the way pass the George Washington Bridge. Clearly who are acting like a gang of thugs.

And if you look at their track record and their history, they're so proud of their conduct. They post on YouTube, Piers videos. They have a YouTube video on their website of them doing this in 2011 to another vehicle, pounding the windows of the vehicle.

PEREZ: Here's the problem with what Mr. Tacopina is saying. First of all, he is assuming that all of these bikers are together. He's assuming that this is a biker organization.

MORGAN: Well, they are together. They are -- They all stopped together.

TACOPINA: They all stopped together.

PEREZ: Well, they're together ...

MORGAN: They were driving together.

PEREZ: Right. But they're together the same way that if we're walking out of a baseball game, let's say Yankee Stadium, and everyone's walking to the train station, they're together in that sense. My client doesn't know any of those other bikers.

TACOPINA: Even though it's almost the same. You said they were all gradually here .. .

PEREZ: It's -- they're all ...

TACOPINA: (inaudible)

PEREZ: Right. But this is not the realm (ph). This is not the realm (ph). When we see this video coming up, everyone is heading north on the highway. My client doesn't know these other bikers that around him. He's there with specific two to three other friends and they're all heading north. He comes up ...

MORGAN: What would you have done? What would you have done, Benjamin Perez, if that would have been you? You'll think of the family?

PEREZ: Yes. I do have, sir. MORGAN: Wife, children?

PEREZ: I have children. I have small children.

MORGAN: If they'd be in the back of your car, you are surrounded by that many bikers and they were behaving the way they were behaving, would you not ...

TACOPINA: Worst thing could happen is...

PEREZ: I would have assessed the situation. If I felt threatened the way that I think Mr. Lien felt threatened, then, I would have locked the doors, raised my windows and called 911 immediately.

MORGAN: Easy to say. How many windows ...

PEREZ: But nothing happened ...

MORGAN: Let me turn to Gloria Allred. Because, Gloria, we talked the other night about this, you represent obviously the family of Edwin Mieses. First of all, what is his condition today?

GLORIA ALLRED, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Well, unfortunately the doctors have told him that he has 99 percent probability of never being able to walk again. And he is still in the hospital and there's no release date. But I would like to add, with all due respect to Joe Tacopina, we only -- he only talked about one part of the test. And of course, the person we're not talking about is right there -- Edwin Mieses, my client. And he is the person that was run over by Mr. Lien in the SUV.

And the question is not just was Mr. Lien in fear. The question is was it reasonable? Was he in reasonable -- was it reasonable for him to believe that he was in imminent danger of deadly force because he used deadly force, that SUV to run over my client, to crush him, to break his spine in two pieces, to puncture his lungs. And ...

MORGAN: But, Gloria...

TACOPINA: Look at that scene. Look at that scene right there before he moves. They're surrounding him like a pack of wolves. There's a two-year-old baby in the car and his wife. There's not a human being alive, Gloria, including you who in that similar situation being surrounded by a pack of wolves who were taking them on control (ph), who are stepping at their tires wouldn't do the same thing to get your family out of there. I'm sorry to what happened to your client but what this guy did was what would anyone would do protecting his family and his loved ones including a two-year-old baby who these guys -- these animals smashed the windows of that car ...

PEREZ: I think from the facts come out ...

ALLRED: Joe, here is what you're ignoring, Joe, is that the test -- and you know this test because you're a very good attorney -- is the -- was it reasonable for him to believe that it was an immanent -- that it was going to be an immanent use...


ALLRED: ... use of deadly force against him by my client who was only standing in front of his car with his back to the SUV telling everyone, "Move on, move out."

MORGAN: Gloria, I'm going to leave it there. I mean, I would point out against the (inaudible). You're client did not have a motorcycle license. He's never had one. He shouldn't be on the road to start with.

ALLRED: He wasn't on a motorcycle when was hit he was a pedestrian therefore with all due respect that they rolled (ph) it.

MORGAN: I think ...

TACOPINA: But he wasn't walking there though. He wasn't walking there. He was part of that gang of wolves who would surround that vehicle...

PEREZ: He's...

ALLRED: He was not part of any ...

MORGAN: I have to leave it there. This will keep going.

ALLRED: ... not part of any ...

MORGAN: We will talk about this again. We wouldn't keep you. But thank you all very much indeed for joining me. Coming next, the always outspoken Donald Trump, what he thinks is right for America.


MORGAN: With all that's going on tonight in Washington, I sat down with Donald Trump at Trump Tower a little while ago. Now, surprisingly he was pretty blunt about the dysfunction that shuts down the government. He's In the Chair tonight.


MORGAN: Donald Trump, if you were the CEO of Washington Incorporated right now, how many times would you been saying, "You're fired" in the last few weeks?

TRUMP: Well, probably a lot but they really have to learn to get along. I mean you just have a President that is not leading and not getting people into a room and not shouting, and cajoling, and laughing, and having a good time, and having a terrible time. But, you know, all of these different emotions are things you have to do but you have to get people in a room and you have to just make deals for the good of the country.

MORGAN: He's finally done that today with Republicans. So a group of them had gone down there led by John Boehner. Many people are criticizing both Speaker Boehner and the President for not doing enough talking in the previous few weeks. In the Clinton-Gingrich Era, they talked all the time.

TRUMP: Well, I will say this. If the Republicans stuck together, they have cards like you wouldn't believe. You know, I hear so much about the Republicans don't have the cards.

The fact is, they have tremendous cards if they stuck together. But, Piers, they're not sticking together. You have all of these different guys making different statements and they want to come back and we should be back. The fact is they have a lot of strength if they want but they're not sticking together.

MORGAN: The government shutdown is painful but a debt ceiling crisis would be potentially catastrophic. Warren Buffet has called it the nuclear bomb option. And it should never be used as a political tool. As a top businessman, what do you think of that?

TRUMP: Well, nobody knows. Its unchartered territory, you know, the debt ceiling, look, we're up to $17 trillion in debt. Nobody's ever ...

MORGAN: Can you even believe that figure?

TRUMP: No. It was a word ...

MORGAN: Missed (ph) targets started out. It was perfectly normal.

TRUMP: Well, it was a word that didn't exist in our language 10 years ago. The space of trillion, the word trillion. Now, you hear, you don't hear billion anymore, all you hear is trillion. The fact is that it was a -- it's a number that's staggering, $17 trillion and going up rapidly. It's not stopping there.

They're looking at $24 trillion. Now, at what point does it stop? The debt ceiling nobody knows what's going to happen. Now, you could have a situation where you don't raise the debt ceiling and people actually have to go and really cut and get the country back into shape. There are those that say that could happen also.

MORGAN: Would feel comfortable about the debt ceiling limit not being extended? Well, somebody who has so many fingers in so many businesses buyers (ph) in America.

TRUMP: The word comfortable is a hard word. Certainly, I wouldn't feel comfortable with it, because again your -- unchartered territory. But I will say this something has to be done to get debt down. We can't continue to go this way. We're looking at numbers that is just staggering and they're going up at a staggering rate.

So, something is going to have to be done. They have to make deals. They have to sit down and say we'll going to have to do something. You look at what's happening with other countries. How they're -- Look I've been doing this with you for a long time and it never changes. Nobody changes. Nobody does anything. When you look at China, when you look at some of the other countries the way they take advantage of this country, China gets their oil and they come through the straits. Now, they come through straits we protect the straits. China gets most of the oil and Europe by the way, we get 10 percent of the oil and yet we spend all of the money on them.

Why are people reimbursing us for this? Why are people helping us? Why are people doing things? We cannot continue to spend the way we're spending and really to a large extent it's to the benefit of others and in particular -- I mean China is the worst abuser. There's no question about it.

But virtually every country that does business with us as a country takes advantage of the United States.

MORGAN: From a business point of view, China is being extremely smart with America has pulled up more and more American debt.

TRUMP: Very smart.

MORGAN: Nearly a third of American debt is own by the Chinese. If there was to be a default on the debt ceiling the first people that will get paid will be the Chinese with their bonds because otherwise the whole pack of cards comes down.

I mean their power, if there is a default on the American debt, increases pretty rapidly.

TRUMP: Well, I guess you can say that, but look, China has already been lecturing us don't let this happen. Can you believe this we put ourselves in a position ...

MORGAN: Can you laugh at them saying that ...

TRUMP: Well, I can laugh ...

MORGAN: ... in a right way.

TRUMP: I think you could cry. I'm not sure about the word laugh. I mean it's sad how we put ourselves ...

MORGAN: The laugh of the (inaudible) because actually they have a position of strength don't they?

TRUMP: They have played us. Nobody has ever played us like that, other than OPEC. I would say OPEC maybe even just played us better but I use them as the two chiefs abusers, China and OPEC. Nobody has played us like to.

But China when you think of it what they've done is in the history of the world there is never been any country that has manipulated their currency to their benefit like China has.

They manipulate their currency. They take our jobs through this manipulation. What they do once our companies go there is incredible because they put rules and regulations on those countries.

I mean when Caterpillar manufactures, they don't want it made in the United States. They wear a made in China. They also want all of the information, all of that incredible technology, they want all. And they ask the things that we can't even -- we don't even think of asking. And by the way they tax our products when we send them.

MORGAN: How did you feel when you heard the death payments to the widows and families of dead servicemen and women in the American military were not going to be paid?

TRUMP: Well, I thought it was one of the most outrageous things I've ever heard and I've been doing this for a quite a while. I've seen a lot of crazy things, stupid things, horrible things, and I guess you put this on the category of all of the above.

I actually tweeted that if the government doesn't pay it, I will. And I assume in some form they're going to get paid, because I haven't heard back, but a lot of people respected what is -- I think it's horrible. Here you've lost a son or a daughter that you love and cherish and then on top of it, the government says, "Well, we don't have the money to pay for the funerals and for the death." I mean it's incredible.

So, when you say how do you feel about. I thought it was outrageous.

MORGAN: Let's take a short break. When we come back I want to talk about "The Arts of the Deal" you've written a book called "The Art of the Deal". You know Speaker Boehner well. You know the President obviously, I want to work out from you. How these guys can get together and do better business?


I think one of the biggest problem is that they don't like each other. When you don't like each other it's very hard to make a deal.


MORGAN: Donald Trump when you look at John Boehner and Barack Obama as businessmen, putting aside your clear leaning towards the Republican, but just a straight forward businessman. It seems to be a real problem that the way both of them conduct business.

John Boehner hasn't got control of his party. The President won't negotiate in the way that people think he should do, regardless of how this current shutdown all washes up. What advice can you give about the arts of doing a deal, of doing business?

TRUMP: Well, I think one of the biggest problem is that they don't like each other. When you don't like each other, it's very hard to make a deal. And you understand that its common sense, but they don't like each other.

There's tremendous animosity. And I see it. I mean when I watch them I know John Boehner and I like him he's actually a good man, he's working very, very hard and he's got probably the second most difficult job. I think he has got some tough job. But ...

MORGAN: What would you do about the Tea Party? Ted Cruz and those guys, 40 people in his party effectively holding the entire country to ransom.

TRUMP: But you see I'm a believer in the Tea Party, because what they want is what's really right for this country. They want something to be done about this horrendous debt, something to be done about a lot of different things going on in the country. I mean our country is in a free fall and these are good American people. These are great American people.

So, you know, sometimes severe, sometimes not so severe, but what they do want, what's good for the country.

Now, the Speaker has to be able and the President could get along together. When they play golf everybody calling me, "Oh, they're playing golf, what do you think?" They thought I was say going to say negative about them playing up. I thought that was the greatest thing. They could get along. Problem is they only played one round. They got to play a lot. They got to get along. They got to led and we're not being led.

Now, in all fairness to the President he's never been a dealmaker. Never made deals before he became a senator or president ...

MORGAN: Is that a problem, do you think?

TRUMP: I think it is, because I don't think he's a natural dealmaker.

You know, it's like sports. You have natural hitters in baseball and natural shot makers in basketball, a natural plotters in golf. He's not a natural dealmaker. It doesn't come naturally to him.

So, he's got to use other people. He's got to do something, because right now, you know, again when he said, "I'm not negotiating" that's fine, but then you have to negotiate.

MORGAN: Right.

TRUMP: In other words say it. You can say it to the world, but then you got to negotiate.

MORGAN: But Bill ...

TRUMP: When he says that he doesn't negotiate.

MORGAN: Bill Clinton told me an interesting thing which was when he was dealing with Vladimir Putin or with Newt Gingrich and when he met to any opponent. The technique he use was he'd kick everybody out of the room eventually and just go man to man ...

TRUMP: That's great.

MORGAN: ... look them in the eyes and plenty of boom, boom, boom, they get stuff done. And he -- I said, did you trust Putin for example. He said, "Well he never went back on his words to me about anything." He's already (ph) fast that he said and he said that in the end, you don't actually really need to believe everything you're being told, you just have to do a deal.

You go along with that?

TRUMP: Well, I do look. President Clinton did have a lot of good relationships and that was why he was able to make deals and he really did make a lot of deals and a lot of deals for the good of the country.

The fact is right now, we have these stale mates. I've never seen anything like it. This constantly a stalemate. So, what's going to happen in two weeks is going to be more interesting. Now, maybe as we're speaking, they're going to make a deal where they do some kind of an extension, but an extension is not what you need. You need the overall deal. We have to make a big deal and it has to be the proper deal for the country.

MORGAN: Looking America Incorporated as a business, clearly some massive problems. What is the way forward because America built really through it last century on this great manufacturing ...

TRUMP: Right.

MORGAN: ... tour de force, which rampage around the world as a great superpower clearly is no longer that kind of country.

TRUMP: That's right.

MORGAN: What do you do about it?

TRUMP: Well, and again, it's jobs. You have to take jobs away from other countries, China, India, all of these countries, they're taking our jobs.

By the way, Mexico we've made it so good for Mexico what they're doing to us is unbelievable. You've got to take that jobs, you got to make the economy strong. And you know what, when you make the economy strong Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security. All of the things that are in trouble, they won't be in trouble anymore.

We have this incredible machine but we're not using it. But if you can create a great economy, we don't have to worry about Social Security and Medicare and Medicaid, all things that are good things, we don't have to worry about them again.

MORGAN: Do you worry that America may not have a great economy again in your lifetime.

TRUMP: Well, if we don't have the right leadership, we will never have a great economy again and we frankly will not be a great country again. We need the right leadership.

Right now, our leader, I think he is well-meaning, you know, he wrote sorts of things at all, he really doesn't want. It's ridiculous. He wants to do a good job. I really believe he wants to do a good job but his mind set is not on what we need.

We need a great and strong economy and that will take him all the money pouring in is a positive thing, not of negative things. It's a positive. And that will take care of so many problems that we have.

MORGAN: Do you believe in the green shoots fear at the moment. The properties beginning to bounce back and car sales are good and so on.

TRUMP: I think it's very, very fragile. One of things that we have is we have an artificially low interest rates. Now we've developed -- I love low interest rates. I love it. I'm doing the old post office on Pennsylvania. Everything, I'm doing do well. I'm getting this money for like nothing but that's artificial. It's not going to be that way.

Don't forget. The biggest thing is when the government borrows money and pays interest, it's paying so low right now. When they have to pay a normal rate of interest, you want to see deficits? That's going to be the biggest deficit of all.

So, we have to get the economy going before the interest rates start going up.

MORGAN: How do you feel? When I heard the Statue of Liberty was being closed down ...

TRUMP: Yeah.

MORGAN: ... because of the shutdown. I don't think many Americans realized how that looked to the outside world. This absolute symbol of America and liberty and freedom, closed for business.

How do you feel as an American?

TRUMP: Yes ...

MORGAN: It's been 17 shutdowns since the early '70s, nothing new and some of being Democrat, some being Republican. In fact more Democrat.

As an American, do you not feel embarrassed when this kind of thing happens?

TRUMP: Well, you know, when the Statue of Liberty, Piers, was closed and they announced and everything, I thought it was very bad. When the soldiers weren't able to get the money, the families of the soldiers to be buried that to me -- hit me much harder.

The Statue of Liberty, it will open, but the case when where you loss your son or daughter and you can't get money from the United States, you can't get burial, they call it burial money. That to me hit me much harder. I thought that was just horrendous. I thought that was the worst.

That was one of the worst things I've ever heard about this country.

MORGAN: And we'll be right back.

Finally, Miley Cyrus.


MORGAN: Back now, Donald Trump on the 68th floor of Trump Tower, one of the most imposing buildings in New York as (inaudible) my opposing guest this evening.

Donald, I like just to give an immediate reaction to all the following names with your apprentice, (inaudible), if they were in the board room, what you would say?


MORGAN: John Boehner.

TRUMP: He's really working hard, tough situation but I think he is doing a good job. He's trying to keep it all together. He needs more support.

MORGAN: Hired or fired?

TRUMP: OH, I'd hire, absolutely.

MORGAN: Barack Obama.

TRUMP: Again, I happen to think he's trying very hard. I don't think he's a natural at putting together coalitions and deals in this case deals but I do believe he is trying very hard. I think he does want what's good for the country.

MORGAN: Hired or fired.

TRUMP: He probably -- I would say -- let's not use hired or fired. I hope he turns out to be a great president. I've been saying this for a long time, but I do believe he's trying very hard.

MORGAN: Harry Reid.

TRUMP: I know him. I again, think they're all working very -- you know, they have different views, they have different points of view. Different from mine in these two cases, but Harry Reid is a pretty tough guy. He's a pretty strong guy and he's a very, very worthy opponent.

MORGAN: Would you hire him?

TRUMP: Well, I'd hire him. I don't know if I'd hire him for the country but I'd like to have him on my side.

MORGAN: ObamaCare?

TRUMP: ObamaCare is a disaster. ObamaCare, I would fire.

ObamaCare is a very, very big detriment to the country. Companies are closing because of it. They will be closing and many have.

MORGAN: Ted Cruz.

TRUMP: Well, I'd hire him. I mean, he's a smart guy and I really think that based on everything I've seen, you know, he is bringing the certain awareness to a situation. I would certainly hire him. I mean, all of his fit, the President. These are all smart people and they do mean well but they have very different points of view.

MORGAN: Finally, Miley Cyrus.

TRUMP: Well, she stays at my hotel. So, she always has good -- I mean, always, she stays at my hotel. If she's at my hotel right now, she calls at the other day (inaudible)

MORGAN: Has she taught you how to twerk?

TRUMP: I don't know if I can't do it like her. Probably, (inaudible). What you're talking about and you're asking her with between the President and Boehner and you're asking about Miley. So, she's doing something right.

I think she's getting great attention. I happen to like her.

MORGAN: Donald Trump, it's always good to talk to you. Thanks very much.

TRUMP: Thank you very much. Thank you, Piers.