Return to Transcripts main page


Did Love Triangle Lead to Murder?; Crimes Caught on Tape; Interview with Jesse Ventura

Aired October 16, 2013 - 19:00:00   ET


JANE VELEZ-MITCHEL, HOST: Tonight, while the government shutdown drama-rama reaches a crescendo in the nation`s capital, another drama, a very different kind, a stone`s throw away in the D.C. suburbs of Silver Spring, Maryland. There, a murder mystery is unfolding as we speak.

The extraordinary murder case involves two very handsome, once high- achieving young men, going to the same elite grad school, who were friends since they were kids. But now Rahul Gupta -- and you`ll see him; he`s the other guy -- there he is -- is charged with murdering his high school buddy, the guy on the right, because Rahul thought his girlfriend was sleeping with that guy in the blue shirt.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s unbelievable when it happens, especially someone that you know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The three had been out drinking earlier in the night, celebrating Gupta`s birthday. Back at the apartment, a dispute began between Gupta and Waugh.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All three parties knew each other and had known each other for a long time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shocking, very shocking.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re at a loss.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: This alleged love triangle murder all started when Rahul, his girlfriend and his friend Mark Waugh went out drinking to celebrate Rahul`s 24th birthday.

Faster forward to later that night. Rahul`s girlfriend allegedly wakes up to see Rahul, her boyfriend, kneeling next to Mark Waugh`s bloody -- and I mean bloody -- body. She hysterically calls 911, and when officers raced to the scene, our affiliate, WJLA reports Rahul told cops, quote, "I walked in on them cheating, and I killed my buddy," end quote. Listen to this from ABC News.


CAPTAIN MARCUS JONES, MONTGOMERY COUNTY, MARYLAND, POLICE DEPARTMENT: They could see some blood stain on the walls, and they could see Mr. Gupta sitting down at the base of the bed and like he was in despair.

He made a statement that his girlfriend had been cheating on him and that the individual involved, that he had actually did it.


VELEZ-MITCHELL; But is there another story? Tonight we`re investigating if there`s a lot more to this alleged twisted love triangle than what the suspect is saying about why he allegedly murdered. Did he confess or didn`t he? It`s confusing right now.

Give me a call: 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297.

Straight out to HLN contributor, investigator Jon Leiberman. What have you learned tonight?

JON LEIBERMAN, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: I`ll tell you, Jane, I`ve been pouring over the police reports and the documents. This is a tragic case any way you look at it.

But another tragedy inside of this case is police are trying to figure out what the truth is.

When they get to this apartment around 3:25 in the morning, they find Gupta`s girlfriend there. She had called 911. And they see an absolutely heinous, bloody, horrible scene. What they find is the victim with seven or eight stab wounds, including stab wounds at close range right to the jugular. So this was clearly a crime of passion, seven to eight stab wounds.

Now, when they talk to the suspect at the scene, Mr. Gupta, he tells them differing accounts. In one breath he says, "Yes, I killed him," according to police reports, "I killed him because he was cheating my girlfriend -- he was cheating with my girlfriend," OK, in front of him.

But then later on when police talk to him, he almost seems to set up the self-defense defense, because he then claims that at one point Waugh tried to kill him, that his very good friend tried to kill him. But he did escape...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold it right there and let me ask Adam Thompson, criminal defense attorney. Is this one of those cases where somebody confesses and then thinks better of it and goes, "Oh my gosh, I think I just confessed to police. Let me -- let me rethink that a little bit. Now oh, wait, let me go with self-defense. Yes, he lunged at me"?

ADAM THOMPSON, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Let me tell you, Jane, I`ve been saying it many times in the past on your show. First rule if you get arrested, don`t make any statements. Wait until you have an opportunity to speak to an attorney, think out what it is you want to say, if anything, and then make a statement.

It`s obvious that something happened here, and there`s going to be very conflicting stories. Did he really catch his girlfriend cheating with his best friend, which would put him over the top and make him go into a fit of rage and kill in a crime of passion? Or was it something different? We don`t know the whole story yet. We certainly know that there`s already conflicting stories, though, from him.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Here`s what we`re sort of learning. Cops get to the scene. OK? They got a call about an unknown incident. And this incident is in the apartment where Gupta and his girlfriend live. It`s a studio. Studio, small apartment. You can`t do a lot of things without somebody else seeing it.

OK. When they get there the suspect tells them, as we`ve just said, "I walked in on my girlfriend cheating on me, and I killed my buddy." Police have not confirmed whether or not this cheating allegation is true. That`s what we`re trying to find out tonight.

The girlfriend reportedly told detectives she returned to the apartment with Gupta and the other guy, Mark Waugh, that night, and they had downed several shots of alcohol. She claims, in fact, they drank so much that she blacked out and only woke up when Gupta started yelling at her to call 911.

So straight out to the Lion`s Den. Lisa Bloom, legal analyst for Now, even though it`s a studio apartment and you think everybody would see what was going on, if she`s in a drunken blackout, not so much. She`s not going to see anything.

LISA BLOOM, LEGAL ANALYST, AVVO.COM: OK. But Jane, she says, "I woke up and saw him stabbing the best friend." How is he catching her cheating if she wakes up and sees this? I mean, the story doesn`t hang together.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Lisa Lockwood, that`s a very interesting question. There`s -- you know, what happens when you kind of -- let`s put it this way. The truth always makes sense, because it`s the truth.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: But sometimes stories that aren`t true have holes in them and contradictions, because you haven`t thought it through perfectly.

LOCKWOOD: And I am in complete opposition of the attorney who said keep quiet. Because let me tell you, detectives loves extemporaneous admissions. Love it.

The first thing he said is "I killed my buddy, caught him cheating." Then he goes and recants and thinks about his defense later on to try and get out of it.

Listen, it`s a studio apartment. Are you kidding me? She`s sleeping. I don`t care how blacked out somebody is. You`re going to hear somebody being murdered with blood splatter all across that studio apartment, getting -- the outrage of what`s happening in that moment she is not going to just wake up later on when she hears him crying. I`m sorry, just not feasible.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s go to the phone lines. Michelle, Canada, what do you have to say about this?

CALLER: Hi, Jane, and crowd. I just want to say that it`s very sad that this happened, mostly because if everybody killed their spouse or girlfriend or boyfriend in the house there would be no one left in the world and I`m wondering what other alternative he could have done which is obvious: don`t kill the person.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you know, rage killings, intimate partner violence, Lisa Bloom, as you know, we often wonder, are we`re sleeping with the enemy, because male on female intimate partner violence is one of the leading causes of death for women. This is, unfortunately, a classic case.

BLOOM: All of that is very true, and I love your caller`s angle. And also, add to this, it`s 3 a.m. People are passed out, you know, blacking out from drinking. None of that is ever a good thing. And we hear that in a lot of crime stories. Rage, scream, yell. Do what you got to do when you`re in a rage, don`t pick up a weapon; don`t pick up a knife; don`t pick up a gun.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you bring me to my rant, and I got to rant because, hello, people, alcohol strikes once again. This horror that has unfolded has destroyed three families. It probably would not have happened had drinking not been involved.

Before I got sober, more than 18 years ago, was a blackout drinker. Yes. That means sometimes I wouldn`t remember what happened after a certain point in the night. And that`s when the worst wreckage always invariably occurred. And then I`d wake up the next day and wonder, "What`s happening? What`s wrong with this apartment?"

Lucky for me, it was just noisy parties. But when you`re drunk to the point where you don`t know what you`re doing, deadly things can happen.

And my gosh, Lisa Lockwood, investigator, "Undercover Angel" author, isn`t it true that, as a person gets more inebriated, their behavior has a greater probability of becoming more and more outrageous and violent?

LOCKWOOD: Absolutely. And let`s look at the combination. Were there other foreign substances in their bodies? I would like to see what the toxicology report`s going to be on why.

And also, did the police draw any blood from the girlfriend and from Gupta in custody to find out if there was a mix of something that called this radical behavior.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wendell, Alabama, what have you got to say about it? Wendell?

CALLER: Hey, Jane. What`s up? How you doing? I`m glad to be on your show. I`m recovering addict from meth for 15 years. God is good, ain`t he?


CALLER: I got that -- still there?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I said, "Wonderful."

CALLER: Oh, you`re welcome. My thing, it`s not the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) story. Guys do not kill guys over girls. There`s something more to that story. There`s something about -- we don`t even know.

First of all, why are you going to claim self-defense? You did own it. You`re a man, own it. That`s what I`m saying. I mean, guys, we got to (UNINTELLIGIBLE). We say, "Hey, what`s up?" We fight, fistfight. I think there`s something more to the story.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wendell, I think you`ve made a very, very -- You`ve hit on something.

Now this guy, the suspect, Rahul Gupta, and Mark Waugh were reportedly friends from high school. These guys were tight, both enrolled in grad school at prestigious George Washington University.

So they went to high school and college together. I did that with one friend, a very, very close friend. That person, I knew everything about that guy, and he knew a lot about me, too. So these are two people who know a lot about each other. They`re very intertwined. They`re enmeshed. They both had bright futures ahead until this horror.

Friends of the victim, Mark, say he was a great guy. Listen.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He wasn`t, like, someone that you had to worry about, someone that -- I mean, he was -- he was involved. It`s unbelievable when it happens to especially someone that you know.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Straight out to the Lion`s Den. We`re going to show you some video that we found of murder victim Mark Waugh from James Madison University, where he graduated magna cum laude and was a star member of the debate team. Look at this handsome young man.

You know, I`ve got to say, he just is a little better looking that the suspect, and that`s just my personal opinion.

And I got to throw it out to -- well, a lady, Lisa Bloom, legal analyst, Could he have felt threatened by this better-looking young guy and maybe the girlfriend, when they`ve had a few, "Who do I want?" I`m not blaming her, but what I`m saying is his resentment may have been brewing for years.

BLOOM: Absolutely. And who knows what was going on? These are three young people. They`re all, you know, passing out drunk in a little apartment. Maybe there was flirting. Maybe there was a misunderstanding. Maybe she was sleeping with him. We don`t know.

You know, the problem is, as you say, the combination of the alcohol and the rage and the overreaction, and now three lives are shattered. What a tragedy.

LEIBERMAN: Jane, we need to point out, too...

THOMPSON: Your last caller made a very good point. I think that there is a lot more to the story. If we look at the facts, if she truly was blacked out and nothing happened between the victim and her, then what would put this best friend in such a rage to do such a violent attack and murder his best friend since high school? They knew each other for years. What would drive him to grab a knife and stab him brutally seven or eight times in the jugular, in the back? There has to be some motive or some driving force. If she`s passed out, what else is behind the scenes that we don`t know about yet that`s going to come out?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Did he walk in on something? Maybe she was passed out, and I don`t want to blame the victim, though. I mean, this is a young man who has never done anything untoward. He has no criminal record. He was headed great places. And so let`s not assume the worst of the man who was the one who was killed viciously.

But something doesn`t add up. There`s a missing piece to the puzzle. We`re going to try to solve it on the other side. Call me if you think you`ve got the answer.

And sitting down right now, getting ready to talk to me, former Minnesota governor, Jesse Ventura, you know, the former professional wrestler. He`s thinking about maybe running for president, because he is so sick of our dysfunctional government. I agree with him 100 percent.

What are we going to do about it? What do you want to do about it? What should he do if he`s running for president to change this mess?

But first, again we`re going to go back to that young man killed by his close friend, allegedly. He says he confessed and then he kind of backpedaled. Was it a deadly love triangle?


JONES: They could see some blood stain on the walls, and they could see Mr. Gupta sitting down at the base of the bed like he was in despair. He made an uttering (ph) statement that his girlfriend had been cheating on him and that the individual involved, that he had actually did it.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, yes, I guess it`s a little surprising.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shocking. Very shocking.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re at a loss, ourselves.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Elite university student, this guy, the suspect, is a would-be biomedical engineer. Responding officers reportedly found that would-be biomedical engineer covered in blood and his best friend, a murder victim, Mark Waugh, unresponsive with multiple stab and defensive-type wounds on his body.

Now think about it: this is a studio apartment. There`s not a lot of separate rooms. There`s three people, two guys and girl. She claims she was passed out drunk and there the entire time. But based on the wounds, there was a ferocious struggle inside the walls of this apartment.

So you know, I`ve got to ask, Lisa Lockwood, investigator, do you think that neighbors might play a role in determining what the heck was going on and providing a time line?

LOCKWOOD: Yes. Yes, Jane. And what the neighbors heard when they did a canvass in the area, in the apartment complex, is one neighbor reported hearing a thud, and that`s extremely important. I know when I`m asleep and I hear a loud noise, one of the things that I do is I look at my phone, the alarm clock, whatever it is, to find out what time it was.

So certainly, they heard a thud. What time did they hear that thud, and what time was the 911 call? When did that take place? How much time was Waugh [SIC] sitting with that body deceased before the girlfriend actually called 911? So that`s very critical in the timeline.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I also think, Lisa Bloom, it`s very significant that this all happened, the call came in 3:20 Sunday night. So that`s very late, late, late Saturday night. We all know how crazy things will get on a Saturday night. Maybe you don`t know. From the old days. How crazy things could get late, at 3 in the morning Saturday night.

And being a local news reporter for years, that was when the gun shots would ring out in every city I ever worked in around that time.

So they get back to their apartment. They`ve been out partying. It`s the two guys and the girl. They`re drinking. They`re getting drunker and drunker. And then something happens to trigger, I would think an argument, maybe the jealousy. In other words usually in a lie there`s a little bit of truth. He says, "I walked in on my girlfriend cheating on me. My girl was cheating with my buddy." Maybe he felt that, but maybe he didn`t actually walk in on it.

BLOOM: Yes, first of all I agree. Nothing good happens after midnight. That`s what I used to tell my kids when they were teenagers. And of course, when I was a young person, I was out partying all night, so I get it. It`s fun, but it is a dangerous time of night in terms of crime. Secondly, just because he says they were cheating on him doesn`t mean it was really happening. Maybe he thought this was a legitimate defense.

Some people think if you walk in on your spouse or girlfriend cheating on you, you get to kill the other person. You know, it`s called a crime of passion. It`s still a crime. It`s still a crime; it`s just a lesser crime than murder. So maybe this was his first story: This -- you know, they were cheating on me. Then he thought, "That might not get me all the way there. It was self-defense."

So he`s putting out story after story trying to exonerate himself, and he`s covered with blood. This guy has killed and there was only three people there and the girlfriend`s the one that called 911.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you know, when three people are in a room together for a long time, and there`s booze and there`s music, they might start dancing. They might start getting a little flirtatious, and it may not have been that they were in bed together. It may have been that he perceived a flirtation between his girlfriend and his best friend, and it put him over the top.

On the other side, you will not believe this video. A motorcycle robber gets, well, it`s so much more than he bargained for. It`s over for him. You`ve got to see this.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh boy. We got some stuff to show you here. Stunning video of a crime caught on tape from start to finish. Technology is advancing. We`re literally seeing crime as the human race has never seen it before.

Get this: A man in Brazil tries to car jack another man`s motorcycle. But the good guy`s helmet cam catches the entire thing on tape. Watch. Watch.




VELEZ-MITCHELL: Right there when we froze it is when an off duty cop shot the robber and killed him.

Now a few weeks ago, here`s another one. A terrifying New York City fight between some motorcyclists. This one is all over the news. You know, the driver of an SUV caught on one of the biker`s helmet cams, and this was a huge, huge controversy that still goes on.

Then let`s take a look at another one. This past Sunday a man caught on surveillance tape attacking a bus driver in the Boston area. The driver ends up losing control of the bus, and it crashes into several parked cars. You can see this bus is moving. And, well, we`ll let it play out, and you`ll see that essentially, this bus crashes as a result of this fight. You know, this is extraordinary.

And I really believe, Lisa Lockwood, you`re an investigator. We`re getting to the point in our culture where everything -- and there`s the crash. Hold on. It`s about to happen -- boom, boom. Everything is caught on tape. Nobody is going to get away with anything, because everybody`s face -- and I`m not saying these are all suspects, but everybody`s face is going to be on camera.

LOCKWOOD: Amazing. It`s become one of the best witnesses in so many cases. I know when I was a detective everybody was so excited to have them in the police cars, in the patrol units, monitoring DUIs, monitoring when police officers are talking to people, going up to vehicles, and there`s a shooting. You have all of this videotaped, and citizens are out there doing some great things with their footage.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So Jon Leiberman, I remember seeing this movie about pre-crime where it was sort of a futuristic movie with, I think it was Tom Cruise, and they figure out who`s going to commit a crime before they commit it. And it was -- it was fascinating.

But this is sort of close to that. I mean, you are seeing crime on tape. You don`t have to reconstruct. You`re looking at it on camera, and these cameras are everywhere now.

LEIBERMAN: Well, you`re right. It`s not that the criminals are getting more brazen. They`ve always done antics like this. But the fact of the matter is now it`s just being caught on tape, so now we`re actually getting a close-up look at exactly how the crimes go down.

And I agree with Lisa: It`s a great investigative tool, No. 1, and you know, this technology in a lot of ways is helping law enforcement more than anything else. Between this and the social media footprint that people leave, I mean, law enforcement is really getting a leg up, because now you have an invisible witness, which is this camera that could be anywhere. Could be in your helmet cam, could be on the street corner, anywhere.

And it just shows, the Brazil example, that crime doesn`t pay because that off-duty cop was right there.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, my God. And Lisa Bloom, you`re getting a look at what it really feels like. It`s almost like you`re the victim, because the victim of the robbery was wearing the camera. So you`re seeing the gun as if it`s coming at you.

BLOOM: Yes. And it`s also sad, I have to say, to see this young guy wielding the gun and these are the final moments of his life. And you wonder about the choices that he made that got him there. It`s really suicide by cop, right, when you`re waving your gun around and there`s a cop. Of course, you know, that`s going to be it for you.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. He`s a young guy, and he`s uneducated. And, you know, kids are influenced by movies. He may not have had education to have another alternative. I don`t want to make excuses for him, but it`s a tragedy all the way around.

You know, the interesting thing is, while individuals and citizens have these cameras now everywhere, and they`re using them, where we could really have them, instead of catching people who are speeding or going on a red light, we could have them at intersections to really catch abductions before people get too far. And how many times have we had missing person`s cases where we say, "Oh, if there was only a camera right there, we would have seen where this abductor took the child."

THOMPSON: We`re already at that point, Jane. We`re in the video age now. Let me tell you: if they say a picture is worth a thousand words, what`s a video with sound worth? Ten million words?

I mean, the days of people giving different defenses were making statements, all those things are out the window. When you have a crystal- clear video, showing exactly what someone did on tape, it`s hard to get around that in front of a jury, because the video speaks for itself. And unlike the witness, it doesn`t have any bias or prejudice. The video is what it is and says what it says.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I would hope that perhaps young men like this man who tragically died -- I mean, he looks like he`s 16 or 19 -- will realize, no, don`t do this. We`re not going to get away with it. So they don`t have to learn the hard way and lose their life.

Next, I`m excited. Former governor Jesse Ventura is joining me. He has enough and so have I. We`ve both had enough of this nonsense in Washington. What are we going do about it? We`re going to talk to him next, and you can ask him what you want to ask him. Stay right there.


JESSE VENTURA (I), FORMER MINNESOTA GOVERNOR: I won`t vote for a Democrat or a Republican, and I urge people, that is the solution.

There`s a lot of disgruntled, unhappy people out there just like me. And they`re wising up, finally, I hope.




JESSE VENTURA, FORMER GOVERNOR OF MINNESOTA: There`s a method to my madness.

I think it`s time for a revolt in this country.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you running for president in 2016?




JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: There`s talk about Howard Stern as a running mate.

VENTURA: He`s thinking about it.

I despise the dirty money. $50 isn`t going to get you much of an audience.

Since the government shut down, that should mean we shouldn`t have to pay any taxes, right?

They use the term party. In actually they`re dead.

They`ve created a system that`s based completely on the concept of bribery.

Enough of this war crap.

If you tell the truth you don`t have to have a good memory. If can debate them, I can beat them.

I`m proud I`m a wrestler. I`m proud I was a wrestler. And I`m proud to be here tonight.


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: Maybe Congress needs a smack down and they`re going to get it in a little bit. Jesse Ventura in the house -- he`s getting ready to join us momentarily.

Now listen, I got to give you an update on what`s happening with the drama queens under the dome. Yes, they`re getting ready. And you know, it`s got to be the 11th-hour thing. We`re less than five hours away from reaching the debt ceiling and finally they`re getting it together, getting their house in order.

I want to give you breaking news. It seems that the Senate any second now, any second -- and remember they have to leave it to the last second because it`s more dramatic that way. They`ve been watching to much reality TV, those politicians.

So they`re going the pass a deal, they think, in the Senate and that`s the Senate right now, and they`re, I don`t know what they`re doing. Looks like they`re just all running around talking to each other but they`re supposed to vote to raise the debt ceiling, just kick the can down the road until January and they`re going to give back pay to furloughed workers and they`re going to do a slight jiggering, a little adjustment to Obama care making it harder to qualify -- in other words more verification.

So then if it passes the old Senate it goes to the House and those Tea Partiers have said they`re not going to block it. So it looks like, you know, in typical dramarama fashion, they might squeeze just out a deal before we slam our heads against that debt ceiling.

All right. You know as the shutdown and debt crisis reaches this nonsensical crescendo, the Shakespearean drama -- and I`m sure they all feel very important there -- but the American public thinks they`re a bunch of knuckleheads and doofuses. Americans are feeling -- well, this woman said it best.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We traveled all the way here to see this cemetery and we get this. I am never voting for Republicans again, ever.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: She`s mad. Republicans, Democrats, there`s plenty of blame to go around. You know what -- I am so sick and tired of this two- party system. It`s dysfunction junction on Capitol Hill. It`s broken. Ok.

Put a fork in it. The shutdown and debt crisis just the latest proof of really the fact that this country has really got a problem. The political system is ruining our nation.

We are so excited right now to have the author of "They Killed Our President" all right. That`s a new book by Jesse Ventura. But Jesse, you`re joining us tonight to talk about how you would fix the mess on Capitol Hill. I mean it is a total, total mess.

And I don`t know if you`re chewing some hot rocks there or what, there`s a little bit of noise. What would you do? If you were in charge, what would you do to these guys and gals? I think the females in the Senate have actually led the way toward something responsible. But it`s a macho club down there with these guys who are really out of control with their egos.

VENTURA: Well, it`s sad because they`ve had plenty of time to not face this deadline. They do it like this, I don`t know why -- on purpose, I guess. I guess we should all sit back and smile now and say I guess we should reelect them all, huh?

I mean if you behaved that way in the private sector you would be looking for a job. And I think it`s high time that all of these people in Washington be looking for another job.

Clearly they can`t run a country. They`ve put us so far in debt -- and you notice I include both parties. I don`t separate them because they`ve created a system of bribery. Both sides are paid off. And they`ve got us so far in debt now I think every newborn child owes over $50,000 at birth.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`re right.

VENTURA: If they ran their home finances --


VENTURA: well if they ran their home finances that way they`d be bag people living in the streets and that`s what they`ve done to our entire country. If I became president, one thing I would do, I would stop all foreign aid. How can we possibly give money to anyone else when we`re broke?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I agree with you. And here`s the problem. Oh, everybody says there`s too much government, but the problem is neither side can agree on what to cut. I mean, let`s face it, the Republicans are responsible for a lot of the war debt that we`ve run up. It was under a Republican president that we went to Iraq and that was trillions and trillions of dollars. The Democrats, they`ve got the social service programs that the Republicans want to cut. But everything, everything is controlled by special interest, particularly corporations.

Listen to what the vice president of Google X proposed. I think this is a possibility.


MEGAN SMITH, VICE PRESIDENT, GOOGLE X: I think it would be really interesting in this age of creative collaboration with the web to actually put the budget data up online and ask the Americans. Especially the youth of America -- challenge them, punt this, whatever -- ask them to help solve the problem.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: This is what I like. Jon Leiberman I want to bring you in. I think that the idea of sitting down and just letting the American people put every ridiculous program on a Web site, a Web site that works unlike the Obama care Web site which has been so really scandalously flawed, put every government program on the Web site and let the people weigh in on what to cut and what to keep.

Because every day I wake up, I have a cup of coffee with my soy milk and I go on a computer and I see one idiotic grant program, one idiotic study after the next. The latest is let`s torture some rats to find out if Oreos and heroine are equally addictive. This is a waste of money and it`s happening every day and by the way, the Senate`s voting now so it`s a good time to be talking about this.

JON LEIBERMAN, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: It`s a broken system, Jane. And these pork projects are only getting worse and worse. You know, I said it on my show early this week. I had a guest on from Citizens against Government Waste and they can literally point to billions of dollars and things that we as taxpayers can look at on a piece of paper and say, I can`t believe my tax dollars are going to that.

And the other problem is, Jane, and Jesse Ventura alluded to it a moment ago, this is just a short-term solution.


LEIBERMAN: We just had a shut down. We just put our economy, you know, in peril. We put, you know a million workers got furloughed.


LEIBERMAN: And this only is a short-term solution.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Listen I have to rant about this and I want to hear what Jesse Ventura thinks. So many government programs and I think you agree are wasteful, inefficient, misused, completely unnecessary. I`ll give you a couple of examples.

We`ve been talking about it on this show. Let`s do away with programs that spend millions in taxpayer dollars every year, a USDA program to kill our wildlife out West. Ok. Some people are trying to save our wildlife. The U.S. government sharp shooters are out there decimating the cougar population and the wild, wild animals in the west -- millions of dollars.

The Postal Service, ok. It needs to go away. Lost $16 billion last year. I mean take all of those buildings that I drove through the city yesterday and I saw post office after post office, you know, turn it into low and moderate income housing. Sell it off. You`d get a lot of money.

I mean, Jesse Ventura, we`ve got to get away from these nonsensical programs.

VENTURA: I got a better idea. Let`s cut defense spending. And I`m former military.



VENTURA: Wait. When you got -- we spend more on defense than the other 26 countries throughout the world combined, 25 of them are supposedly our allies. If we would cut defense spending and quit building all this stuff to kill people, we would have enough money to fix our infrastructure.

Let`s do something for the United States of America instead of fighting wars throughout the world one war after another war after another war. But what you need to understand, those are jobs programs. They have our entire society geared towards war and the manufacturing of war material that we would go through hard times having to redirect all of those war making jobs.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And I agree with you 100 percent. I read a study that said that some contractors put a different part in every state so that anytime somebody tries to eliminate that particular questionable thing that they`re making for the military they can say well, you know, we`ve got people in every state that would lose jobs coast to coast if you eliminated that part.

And I want to say you are a war hero. You served in Vietnam as a U.S. Navy underwater demolition team member during the Vietnam War so you know what you`re talking about. One of the things that I don`t respect is all of these politicians who are so eager to send other people to war but are their kids going to war? Have they been in a fox hole? No. You have.

VENTURA: I have a good name for them. They`re called chicken hawks.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Exactly. Listen Jesse --

VENTURA: No. When it was time for them to go they were chicken and then they come back later and they become hawks. They evolve from being a chick to a hawk as they get older and are not put in harm`s way. I`m so tired of our kids having to go out and fight these wars in these foreign lands.

And I follow the teachings of Major General Smedley Darlington Butler. He was a Marine who wrote the most anti-war book in history called "War is a Racket". And they can`t criticize General Butler because he won not one but two Congressional Medals of Honor. I will follow his teachings and that`s what I believe in is General Butler.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But will they let you in to the presidential race if you`re going to go as a third party or as an Independent? You`ve been saying that you think they might try to keep you out of the debates because they`re scared of you. I`d be scared of you.

VENTURA: Well, sure they`ll try to but I don`t want to run as a third party. I`ve already deemed I will run with no party. In fact here`s my platform. If I do run, I would run and offer the American people simply this: to join me and create new history and elect the first president since George Washington who does not belong to a political party. Imagine that, George Washington is our only president that did not belong to a political gang.


VENTURA: Well if I run, I would challenge the people of America to elect me because I don`t belong to a gang either.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know what?

Jesse, I love all those words but, you know, once you get in there you have a lot less power than you think because you`ve got to get --


VENTURA: I know that. I`ve been a governor.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Listen, Iowa. Iowa, ok. Iowa -- the fact that the candidates have to succeed in Iowa to go anywhere else is one of the reasons why big agriculture you can`t do anything about it. You can`t stop the subsidies.

VENTURA: Remember this, though. My four years as governor, I never met with a lobbyist once, never. Not one lobbyist got in my office.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I love it. All right more on the other side. Stay right there.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now I understand that if you decide to run for president you`d like to see Howard Stern as your running mate. So I know people are going to have -- you know, I love Howard Stern. Are you going to make Robin Quivers, his sidekick, Secretary of State too?

VENTURA: No, not at all. You know there`s methods to what I do.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think she should be. She`s great.

VENTURA: No, no, no. Let me -- well, let me explain. I need Howard so that I can keep my integrity. I don`t take PAC money. I don`t take special interest money. Howard could raise me the money I need in $50 donations. Then I don`t owe anybody anything.

And also when I ran for governor of Minnesota, I had to go unemployed for six months because I had a statewide talk radio show. Howard is on Sirius Radio. We don`t have to go off the air. We can use his radio show to catapult us right into the White House. I look for saving money.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Have you talked to him about this?

VENTURA: I look for ways to do it. Sure I`ve talked to him.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: What does he say?

VENTURA: We`re talking all the time about it. He hasn`t come in. We have to look and see.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think you guys would be a great team. You know why? Because you are aware of what`s really going on. You cut the BS, for lack of a better word.

There is nothing authentic or genuine going on in Capitol Hill anymore. And everybody`s hip to it. We all know that -- you know, they say the right words and they wear the flag pins and all that but it`s all - - it`s a charade.

VENTURA: But Jane, wait, why do we keep electing them then. When they tell us Congress has a 10 percent approval rating and yet they still get elected back in office. I beg to differ with you. I don`t think people -- they`re still lemmings. They`re still not waking up.

Maybe this government shutdown will finally wake them up. And you know you talked about something earlier about all the development we`ve had in videotaping to tie in with my book a second. I wish November 22nd, `63 would happen today then I wouldn`t have to write this book. We would know Lee Harvey Oswald didn`t kill John Kennedy.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well that`s an interesting conspiracy theory and we could spend years talking about that. Many, many, many, many books have been written about it.

But I`m really fascinated and I would like to read it. I would like to check it out. "They Killed Our President", it sounds like a good read.

But I really think you`re on to something, Jesse. My understanding is nobody really expected you to win the governor`s race. And you beat the Democrats and the Republicans because you rode away with popular anger.

I know there`s popular anger today in America. Everybody is sick of this mess. They`re really sick of it. They`re voting right now in the Senate. And people are just jaded and cynical about their government. And I think that you -- you do have a shot.

VENTURA: Well the thing is that all they`re doing is kicking the can down the road. We`re going the face it again and again and again. The two parties, they`re very much like pro wrestling. When I taught at Harvard I said in front of the cameras they hate each other; behind the scenes, they`re all working together.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. It`s all the inside the Beltway elite games and they`re out for themselves.

VENTURA: Exactly.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, listen, come back ok. We want to have you come back again, because, obviously, this mess is going to continue.

VENTURA: Well, hopefully. I`m going to Mexico in a few months and I don`t come back for a few so we just have to do it again.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, there`s something called Skype. There`s something called Skype. We`ll have it fixed when you get back.

All right. See you, Jesse. Good luck. Keep us posted.

VENTURA: All right. Bye-bye.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Nancy Grace on the other side, she`s going to talk to me about this fascinating murder case that is just -- it`s the next biggie.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, "Pet of the Day".

And attorney, Adam Thompson, a guest -- Emma Peel is his doggy. Pongo -- oh, you are just Pongo. Addie May, you`re something out of a beautiful fairy tale. I love you. I`m ready for my close-up. Brooklyn -- you`re on.



ALEXIS SOMERS, VICTIM`S DAUGHTER: My mother told me -- I was helping her wash her hair, and she said, "Alexis, if anything happens to me, make sure it wasn`t your father."


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Perfect family implodes. That`s the daughter of a prominent Utah doctor on the trial right now for killing his wife.

Breaking news tonight, a jury for this case was seated just minutes ago. Dr. Martin MacNeill booked for felony murder for his wife Michele MacNeill`s death back in 2007.

Now at first the coroner ruled she drowned accidentally in the bathtub. Prosecutors say Dr. MacNeill killed his wife so he could be with his mistress, a woman named Gypsy. Now Dr. MacNeill`s then six-year-old daughter was at the crime scene -- the big question, will the court allow her to testify now that she`s 12 -- against her dad.

Nancy Grace asks an expert.


NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST: Cheryl, do you think that this girl, who is now 12. I mean, if I was the prosecutor and I had to use her, I would use her to get a just verdict. Do you think she should testify?

CHERYL HUNTER: I do. I feel like it could -- for her perspective, it could be the first step in a real road to recovery, to have her story heard and understood, be vindicated in that way.

Now, mind you, Nancy, a trial is never a happy ending for anyone. Even if he is put away for life, she`ll still have the inner journey of having to cope and create a new life for herself. But I think a trial and being heard could be a first step in that important road to recovery.

GRACE: I agree with you, Cheryl Hunter. And right now there`s a big controversy brewing about whether she will even be allowed to testify.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Check out Nancy grace, top of the hour, right here on HLN, coming right up.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, our slice of happiness, a bulldog on a skateboard. Doesn`t get any better than that, does it? Love it is.

Nancy Grace, next.