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The Republican Fight; Video Shows Terrorists Attacking Mall; Trial Begins for Doctor in Utah

Aired October 17, 2013 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: For some reason, Democrats and Republicans are patting themselves on the back today, giving standing ovations. When, in reality, all it did was leave Americans in a cloud of uncertainty. What the next three months means for you.

I'm Brooke Baldwin. The news is now.

Under attack, a CNN exclusive. Chilling video from inside the mall where terrorists murdered without warning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Told him that Michelle was a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) and that she had drowned, while not admitting to the murder, told him that authorities could not prove the case against him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Opening statements in the trial of a doctor accused of drugging and drowning his wife.

Plus, one woman tells college women, stop getting drunk. Now her message is taking heat.

And, should Kathleen Sebelius lose her job for the disastrous rollout of Obamacare?

Hi, there. I'm Brooke Baldwin, back from Washington today, back in CNN Studio Seven.

And, you know, the U.S. economy avoided a potential disaster. Folks, it's back to business. Yes, I am happy to report at this moment, the government is open. Yes, those furloughed workers are returning to the job today. And, yes, the debt ceiling has been raised.

But guess what? You know the deal. It's not permanent. So get ready to do this all over again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Mr. President, isn't this going to happen all over again in a few months?

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Maybe some laughter there, but the president seemed pretty confident that things will turn around ahead of the next showdown, the next deadline, giving my colleague Brianna Keilar, it's her voice you heard, giving her a defiant "no" last night. And today, the president's message to Congress was clear, make sure it doesn't happen again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Now, there's been a lot of discussion lately of the politics of this shutdown. But let's be clear, there are no winners here. These last few weeks have inflicted completely unnecessary damage on our economy. We don't know yet the full scope of the damage, but every analyst out there believes it slowed our growth. And those of us who have the privilege to serve this country have an obligation to do our job as best we can. And we come from different parties, but we are Americans first. And that's why disagreement cannot mean dysfunction. It can't degenerate into hatred. The American people's hopes and dreams are what matters, not ours. If you don't like a particular policy or a particular president, then argue for your position. Go out there and win an election. Push to change it. But don't break it.

And that brings me to one last point. I've got a simple message for all the dedicated and patriotic federal workers who have either worked without pay or have been forced off the job without pay these past few weeks, including most of my own staff. Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So, what happens now as the clock ticks toward January when another possible government shutdown looms. Oh, and February as well, when the debt ceiling will again need to be raised? Well, that's really up to this bipartisan committee and specifically these two people. Take a good long look. You are looking at Senate Budget Committee Chair Patty Murphy, Democrat, and House Budget Committee Chair Paul Ryan, a Republican, in charge of this conference committee, this sacred middle ground.

And they met already today over breakfast, eyeing those deadlines, December 13th. That is when they have been told to come up with this long-term plan for taxes and for spending. One that should have been done months ago. One that finds common ground between the House's budget proposal and that of the Senate.

So, joining me now from Houston, a face we know well from previous partisan blow-ups. He was right in the thick of things in many of these. And was such a ferocious fighter, his own Republicans called him "the hammer." Here he is, Tom Delay. He was House majority leader back from 2003 to 2005. Also served as Republican whip under Speaker Newt Gingrich.

So, Congressman Tom Delay, nice to see you. Welcome.

TOM DELAY (R), FMR. HOUSE MAJORITY LEADER: Thank you, Brooke. Thanks for having me.

BALDWIN: We hear a lot of soul searching from within your own party. We are seeing republics pointing fingers. Republicans licking wounds today. So let me just tick through, if I may, some of these quotes here. First up, this is from your old friend, Grover Norquist, speaking about Republican hardliners. This is what he said. Quote, "they hurt the conservative movement, they hurt the country's economic situation, and they hurt the Republican Party."

Next, this is Representative Thomas Massie, Kentucky. He says, in return for shutting the government and causing a near default, Republicans got a "goose egg, nothing." Senator Roy Blunt, Missouri, quote, "the only reason why the Democrats don't look terrible is we look even worse." And just one more, if I may, this is from Speaker John Boehner. "We fought the good fight, we just didn't win."

So, Tom Delay, did your party lose this one?

DELAY: Well, they did lose, unfortunately. They put up a good fight. And I appreciate everyone that voted against the deal yesterday and stood up and fought. Unfortunately, they didn't have enough votes to carry out the fight and win. They could have won if they had stopped the deal yesterday and kept the government closed and the looming debt ceiling. Unfortunately, they decided not to and decided to fight another day. I just hope the fight on the next time they fight in January or February is a true fight and one that they fight to win.

BALDWIN: I want to talk strategy here. And if they want to continue with the same play with you in just a minute, that's interesting what you just said. But when you look at this, and I was on Capitol Hill yesterday, and just looking at the Republicans and the Democrats, listen, both parties, they took a beating in the polls, but specifically Republicans have just hit an all-time low approval rating at 24 percent. This is a poll by NBC and "The Wall Street Journal." So do you think it was the shutdown and this whole debt ceiling debacle, this fight that, you know, is the reason for these numbers or is it something else?

DELAY: First of all, Brooke, most of these polls are run to push a media's narrative. And so --

BALDWIN: I have no narrative, sir. I'm just right in the middle. Just asking the questions.

DELAY: I'm not attacking you, Brooke, but we saw how the media completely trashed Ted Cruz and others trying to fight for what their people believe in. And these polls are static. They're not dynamic. In politics, when you're in a fight, people just don't like the fight, and so they're going to respond negatively. It's who wins and comes out of the fight that has long-lasting effects.

And I got to tell you right now, out here in the real world, outside of New York and Washington, D.C., these people think Ted Cruz is a hero. They think that the -- those Republicans in the House are heroes and they think that Obama is destroying this country. And what they saw yesterday is more destruction of this country by Obama. Now he's going to add another trillion dollars to the debt after he's already raised $6 trillion on the debt. And then lying to the American people this morning, saying that his deficits are coming down faster than in history. His deficits are a trillion dollars a year. We used to burn down the Capitol when the deficits were $250 billion. So --

BALDWIN: I hear you on these numbers and, listen, I want to have hope that these bipartisan conferees can come together and come up with something. We remember, you know, what happened, you know, a number of years ago.

DELAY: Brooke -

BALDWIN: But let me - let me -- since you - since you bring him up - since you bring him up -

DELAY: But, Brooke - but -

BALDWIN: Hang on, hang on, hang on. Ted Cruz. Will you humor me, congressman, because I would like to just run through a couple of names and I want one word answers. So let me just give you this first name, you brought him up, Ted Cruz.

DELAY: I'm not going to give you one-word answers. That's not fair. And I'm not going to answer it that way.

BALDWIN: Then - no, then elaborate. You can elaborate.

DELAY: Well, Ted Cruz is a leader. People in this country for years have been begging for leadership, and Ted Cruz filled the void of leadership and he took on the Democrat Senate and he took on the president, and he took on a bunch of Republican senators because he was fighting for what is good for this country.

BALDWIN: Do you see him as the leader of the Republican Party right now? Do you see him as the leader of the Republican Party right now, sir?

DELAY: I think he's one of the major leaders of the Republican Party right now. I definitely do.

BALDWIN: What about President Obama? A couple of words for him.

DELAY: Arrogant in chief. That -- his statement this morning was the height of arrogance and - and incompetent. The president was -- is incompetent with Obamacare. He can't even roll out Obamacare. He's incompetent by enforcing on this country something that they don't want. He's incompetent in his foreign policy. He's just an incompetent president.

BALDWIN: What would you give up, Tom Delay, in this next fight here to try to reach some kind of -- so we're not, you know, governing by crisis, if you were in the thick of things?

DELAY: Well, I -- governing by crisis, that's not the right term. You fight for what you believe -- BALDWIN: It's a term I heard from a Republican congressman this week when I was in Washington. Just quoting her.

DELAY: Well, I don't agree with them. You fight for what you believe in and you stand on principles. If that creates a crisis, so be it. You don't - you don't give in before you even get started. And when you get started, you stay strong. That's what - that's what Obama did. Obama said, I'm not going to negotiate. I want a clean CR and I want a clean debt ceiling and I'll shut down the government to get it. And he stood strong, and he got it. And, unfortunately, the American people got it too. They got the shaft.

BALDWIN: What about, just quickly, the future of the Tea Party? Where do they stand next - next election?

DELAY: I think you're going to see the future of the Tea Party in the upcoming fight that this agreement has set.

BALDWIN: In 90 days?

DELAY: The Tea Party, they're gearing up again, and they're going to come after them. That's what should happen. Republicans should regroup and come out fighting, and be on offense and not be on defense. They need to develop a game plan, getting ready for January and February's fight. And they need to take this out of the beltway and they need to go to the American people and convince the American people that if they'll stand up and shout out to the people that represent them, things will be different.

BALDWIN: So even though you said at the top of this interview that they lost, you say, and I'm just using a football analogy, they should run the same play in 90 days?

DELAY: No, I think they need to learn their lesson about what just went on for the last two weeks, gear up, do better, get a better game plan, and go on offense.

BALDWIN: OK. Congressman Tom Delay, I appreciate it. Thank you very much for your perspective.

DELAY: Thank you, Brooke. My pleasure.

BALDWIN: Coming up, the calls are growing louder for President Obama to fire Kathleen Sebelius over the disastrous rollout of Obamacare. We're going to discuss that.

Also, a CNN exclusive, the first chilling video. This is from inside that mall where terrorists took hostages and killed shoppers in cold blood. Coming up next, I'll talk to a former hostage negotiator about what you see in this exclusive videotape about the behavior of the gunmen themselves. Stay here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: You are about to see the horror inside an upscale shopping mall when those tourists -- terrorists, forgive me, terrorists, they stormed in. They ruthlessly murdered dozens of people just at random. And until now, we have only seen what happened through still photographs, like this one. You remember this? And through the stories recounted by people who survived that attack.

But now CNN has exclusively obtained some of the surveillance video from inside that Westgate Mall in Nairobi, Kenya. And the images are absolutely chilling. Much of the video, I just want to warn you, it's tough to watch. It's definitely not suitable for kids. So if you have little ones in the room, get them out. It is important, though, to show the depravity of these terrorists, their total indifference to human life, their lack of hesitation in ending it all together. CNN's Nima Elbagir has been going through hours and hours of this video and so today she reports on what we've learned about that horrendous Saturday less than one month ago.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIMA ELBAGIR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Shoppers at Westgate Mall. This is the scene moments before the al Shabaab attack. Suddenly, men, women, and children begin to run for their lives. This man on the floor thought he'd found safety. Wounded, he gathers the strength to try and crawl for help. Another gunman returns, without mercy.

The security camera spotted two other attackers making their way to the top parking lot walking towards the children's cooking competition held there. Just beyond the camera's view, they open fire.

This edited silent video obtained by CNN shows what happened during the attack in Nairobi on September 21st. As the attackers go through the mall, you see people desperate, trying to run and crawl to safety as bullets streak by. A body on the floor gets barely a glance, and another bullet. This is only a fraction of the surveillance video recorded during this day, most of it too horrifying to broadcast.

In the supermarket, the hostage roundup has begun. A mother and her two children push an injured child in a shopping cart. A teenage girl follows, her hands in the air. She's bloody. A gunman points the way.

Kenyan authorities say they closely watched the security cameras as the attack was happening. The hostage takers are spotted on the phone. Authorities believe they are receiving instructions from outside the mall. Here, one of them even appears to look for surveillance cameras.

Only four attackers are seen in the video. There are long periods of time where they appear almost relaxed. At one point, the attackers take turns for prayers.

Elsewhere, at a mall restaurant, a western man, gun in hand, and what appears to be a plain-clothed Kenyan police officer, take position to try to protect the staff and customers cowering behind a counter. And this was just the first day of what would become a four-day nightmare for Kenya.

Nima Elbagir, CNN, Nairobi.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: Of all the video you saw, I am happy to report at least -- remember seeing the mother, she was pushing that cart with those children? There they are. She was seen in the surveillance video, including that teenage girl, they're OK. They were released by those terrorists.

But the siege that went down inside that shopping mall for four long days with some shoppers held hostage, amid gun battles between the terrorists and then police, this brazen terror strike still raises questions about what are called soft targets, public places with relatively little security.

Wallace Zeins is a form hostage negotiator with the New York Police Department and he joins me now.

And, Wallace, just, first, I mean you sat here and watched this. Just your impressions of what we saw.

WALLACE ZEINS, FORMER NYPD HOSTAGE NEGOTIATOR: Well, right off the bat, it was the theater of terror. You know, this was a typical terrorism attack, planning a soft target, going into the mall, getting as many people as they can get. Their objective is money, manpower, and media. They got their point across very easily.

But if you look at the whole picture and you look at everything that took place, it falls into what the hostage situations are. The first 10 to 30 minutes of any hostage situation is what we call panic reaction. And that's what took place. The hostage takers are looking for a place where they can be comfortable. The military and the police are looking for cover and containment. And the hostages, they're running around, are trying to find cover. It's fight or flight.

BALDWIN: I'm curious because you mentioned media. And something we noticed. I don't know if you saw this. The gunmen, they're seen looking up at the ceiling, talking to - I don't know, talking on the phone to maybe their partners on the outside, perhaps people who were following the news, relaying those reports on the inside. I mean is that possible?

ZEINS: Absolutely possible. And, you know, keep in mind, way back in -- remember the Olympics that happened with -- when Israel -- when the terrorists came in.

BALDWIN: Yes.

ZEINS: The Munich Olympics. It was the same thing. It was the theater of terror. The hostage takers were the stars. The police and army and the hostages were the co-stars. And the world was the audience. And this is the point they wanted to get across to the world. And this took days. And they didn't care. Keep in mind, if they get killed, they are martyrs, you know, so they win one way or the other. But in the situation like this, there are steps that can be taken.

BALDWIN: What do you do if you find yourself inside?

ZEINS: Well, if you find yourself, you've been taken hostage -

BALDWIN: Yes.

ZEINS: One of the most important things, number one, you treat the hostage taker or takers as royalty. Number two, if you have any type of medical problems, let the hostage taker or takers know because they don't want a sick hostage. They want people that they can use. They don't want someone that's going to die on them and another charge added to them. The other thing, speak when you're spoken to.

BALDWIN: They're thinking about charges? Sorry, just had to --

ZEINS: What I'm saying is, is that another situation could happen where they're going to be charged for that particular incident.

BALDWIN: OK. OK.

ZEINS: The other aspect of it --

BALDWIN: Just quickly.

ZEINS: Is that just treat them like royalty. And if a dynamic entry is made by the military or the police, hit the ground. Stay low.

BALDWIN: Wallace Zeins, thank you very much.

Coming up next, the frantic search for two convicted killers on the run. Find out how prison officials were duped into letting these killers walk out of prison. We're on the case.

Plus, the debt deal may be done. The fight, though, continues over Obamacare. Technical glitches have led to bad press. One question some critics are asking, is Health and Human Service Secretary Kathleen Sebelius to blame. Should she be fired?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Two Florida killers are on the loose. And a prison officer freed them by mistake. Joseph Jenkins and Charles Walker strolled out of a Florida panhandle prison on separate days. Jenkins on the left sides of your screen there, he was freed last month. Walker freed October 8th. But in both cases here, forged paperwork duped prison officials into thinking the men's sentences had been reduced. Both men are from Orlando and authorities believe the killers may have returned to their hometown. Orlando police are warning people to be on the lookout.

And a doctor accused of killing his beauty queen wife of nearly three decades went on trial today in Utah. Dr. Martin MacNeill is charged with murder and obstruction of justice in his wife's death six years ago. She was found dead in a bathtub in the family home.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

911 DISPATCHER: Sir, what's wrong?

MARTIN MACNEILL: My wife's fallen in the bathtub!

911 DISPATCHER: Who's in the bathtub? Who's in the bathtub?

MACNEILL: My wife.

911 DISPATCHER: OK, is she conscious?

MACNEILL: She's not. I'm a physician. (INAUDIBLE). I need help.

911 DISPATCHER: OK, sir - sir, I need you to calm - sir, I can't understand you, OK? Can you calm down just a little bit?

MACNEILL: I need help!

911 DISPATCHER: OK. What - your wife is unconscious?

MACNEILL: She is unconscious. She's under water.

911 OPERATOR: OK, did you - did you get her out of the water?

MACNEILL: I can't! I just (INAUDIBLE) I let the water out (INAUDIBLE).

911 OPERATOR: She's under the water?

MACNEILL: She's out of the water now and (INAUDIBLE) me an ambulance!

911 OPERATOR: OK, is she breathing at all?

MACNEILL: She's not!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Prosecutors say MacNeill, whose voice you just heard, gave his wife, Michelle, a deadly dose of drugs after forcing her to get a facelift and then drowned her. MacNeill says he may have accidentally overmedicated her, but a short time ago, prosecutors inferred he killed his wife and mother of eight because he wanted to be with his mistress. Want to play this clip. Before I do, just have to warn you, there's a bit of foul language here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAM PEAD, PROSECUTOR: Gypsy Willis will tell you that their sexual relationship resumed soon after she came into the MacNeill home.

The older MacNeill daughters were frustrated with Gypsy Willis as the nanny because of concerns of an affair. He told another inmate that Michele was a bitch, had drowned, and similarly never denied or admitted to killing Michele, but stated that things happened and law enforcement could not prove a case against him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: CNN legal correspondent Jean Casarez joins me now from outside that courthouse.

So, Jean, we had opening statements today. Run through each side's strongest points.

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I would say the prosecution, their theory is here is that Dr. MacNeill had a plan. It was a plan to push his wife to get a full facelift, and when she's all bandaged up when she comes home, to force her to take pills that would ultimately kill her. Prosecutors say that he went to a plastic surgeon, asked for more medications than you would normally get when someone has a facelift, and that first night after she came home, told daughter Alexis, go to sleep, I can take care of your mother. The next morning, Alexis found her mother, almost incoherent. Later that day, Michele said he just kept forcing me to take pills that I threw up. Ten days later, she was found unconscious and unresponsive in the bathtub. And as Dr. MacNeill was trying to perform CPR on her, he was also yelling and screaming over her body.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAM PEAD, PROSECUTOR: Why did she have the surgery? Why did she take all those medications? I told her not to do it. I'm a doctor. She's dead. I have been a bishop. I paid tithing. And this is the way you repay me?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: And the prosecution also said that during the surgery and during the funeral, that Dr. MacNeill was texting his girlfriend, Gypsy Willis, numerous times. A girlfriend that then would move into the home as the nanny. The defense countered that by saying, Dr. MacNeill made a lot of very improper decisions, and we will not counter that he was eccentric, but there is not one expert in this case that determines conclusively that this was a homicide. And as far as what killed Michele MacNeill, it had nothing to do with her husband.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUSANNE GUSTIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: What you will hear, ladies and gentlemen, that while there are some disagreements among the medical examiners in this case, they all three agree on one thing. They agree that Michele's heart disease was either the cause or the contributing cause to her death.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: Brooke, the prosecutors want to bring a bathtub into the courtroom because they want jurors to be able to see exactly how witnesses found the body of Michele, which counters that of which her husband says.

BALDWIN: Wow. Jean Casarez, we'll be following this trial right along with you in Utah. Thank you.