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CONNECT THE WORLD
Government Shutdown Cost U.S. Economy $24 Billion; Interview with Kenyan Foreign Minister Amina Mohammed; OPCW Inspectors Train For War Conditions Inside Syria; Wildfires Rage Across Southeastern Australia
Aired October 17, 2013 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MAX FOSTER, HOST: Tonight, the chilling face of terror as CNN obtains exclusive new surveillance video of the deadly mall siege in Kenya. We asked the country's foreign minister Amina Mohammed about the latest in the hunt for the perpetrators.
Also ahead, nearly 30 million people, a shocking new estimate of the scale of modern-day slavery. Tonight, we'll investigate what can be done to help the victims.
And the bishop of bling: why this German religious leader is under pressure to resign.
ANNOUNCER: Live from CNN London, this is Connect the World.
FOSTER: It was a terror attack that shocked Kenya and much of the world. At least 67 people were killed when gunmen opened fire in Nairobi's Westgate mall last month. The siege lasted four days.
Much of what we know about the horror inside that mall has come from survivors. Now CNN has obtained access to some surveillance video of the attack. And we must warn you the video is graphic and frightening. And it's not suitable for children.
We're reporting on the videos because there are few opportunities for the public to fully understand the horror inflicted by terrorists and the depravity of the attackers who showed no hesitation about ending lives.
CNN's Nima Elbagir has been going through hours of this video. She joins us now live -- Nima.
NIMA ELBAGIR, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: This is a really difficult watch, Max, but what it does do is it just opens up however small a window into what really happened on that Saturday in September here in Nairobi.
Take a look, Max.
ELBAGIR: Shoppers at Westgate mall. This is the scene moments before the al Shabaab attack. Suddenly, men, women and children begin to run for their lives. This man on the floor thought he'd found safety. Wounded, he gathers the strength to try and crawl for help. Another gunman returns without mercy.
The security camera spotted two other attackers making their way to the top parking lot, walking towards the children's cooking competition held there. Just beyond the cameras view, they open fire.
This edited silent video obtained by CNN shows what happened during the attack in Nairobi on September 21st. As the attackers go through the mall, you see people desperate, trying to run and crawl to safety as bullets streak by.
A body on the floor gets barely a glance and another bullet.
This is only a fraction of the surveillance video recorded during this day, most of it too horrifying to broadcast.
In the supermarket, the hostage roundup has begun. A mother and her two children push an injured child in a shopping cart, a teenage girl follows, her hands in the air. She's bloody. A gunman points the way.
Kenyan authorities say they closely watched the security cameras as the attack was happening. The hostage takers are spotted on the phone. Authorities believe they are receiving instructions from outside the mall.
Here, one of them even appears to look for surveillance cameras.
Only four attackers are seen in the video. There are long periods of time where they appear almost relaxed. At one point the attackers take turns for prayers.
Elsewhere, in a mall restaurant, a western man, gun in hand and what appears to be a plain clothes Kenyan police officer take position to try to protect the staff and customers cowering behind a counter. And this was just the first day of what would become a four day nightmare for Kenya.
ELBAGIR: This mother and the children and the teenage girl that you see there, Max, they are among the lucky few. They were actually released by the attackers several hours after you see them in that video. But, as I said, those are the lucky ones. Even three weeks on, bodies are still buried under the rubble in Westgate and 25 people remain unaccounted for -- max.
FOSTER: Thank you, Nima.
Well, Becky spoke to Kenya's foreign secretary Amina Mohammed and asked her in hindsight, Kenyan security forces missed the warning signs.
AMINA MOHAMMED, KENYAN FOREIGN MINISTER: It was so unexpected, like all this, you know, terrorist attacks are. And this was just a new phase. And I have said that before. And I think the authorities in Kenya have said that also. It's just a new phase of terrorism that we're getting into, you know, a mall, a normal day, right, a sunny, beautiful day in Nairobi. And then you have, you know, families going in for coffee and for tea and then you have this massacre, you know, it's so unexpected. It's just mindboggling.
BECKY ANDERSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: With respect -- and you and I did talk about this during the actual event when you were still in New York and on your way back to Kenya, there had been many warnings about an attack on a western target in Kenya. My sense is since the attack we have found that there were some quite specific warnings.
I ask you again, did the authorities miss this?
MOHAMMED: No. No. Because there were not specific warnings. It was just a general warning, like you have. I mean, we had these warnings before the London bombings, if you remember, right? We had this before 9/11. So there was no specific warnings, there was just a lot of chatter, a lot of information that was flying around, but this had happened before. I mean, this wasn't the first time that we had these warnings.
ANDERSON: Where does the investigation stand right now?
MOHAMMED: Well, it's still ongoing. It's still ongoing. We have the -- an investigation that includes everybody. Actually we have a lot of support from our international partners. You know, the forensics are going on, the DNA testing is going on, and you know, all this. It's ongoing to take a bit of time. It's going to take a bit of time.
And obviously they have to work through the rubble.
ANDERSON: And while they do that, allegations that there was looting carried out by the Kenyan armed forces themselves. W hat do you know of...
MOHAMMED: Well, there's a commission of inquiries that has been established. And, again, just you know ask that we all wait and see what this commission comes up with. A lot of the properties back in the owners hands, you know, and the president has established this commission. And I think, you know, we should just allow it to do its work.
ANDERSON: Why were you not willing to accept all the help from your international partners? UK, the U.S., for example.
MOHAMMED: Well, we did. We did accept the...
ANDERSON: Did you?
MOHAMMED: Not in the beginning, because we felt that this was something that we wanted to do ourselves, right. You know, this was...
ANDERSON: Was that a mistake do you think?
MOHAMMED: No, I don't think so. I think we had...
ANDERSON: ...long time.
MOHAMMED: We had the capability to do it, so do these kinds of, you know, terrorist activities. When you have a hostage situation it doesn't end quickly. You take your time because you want to try and save as many lives as possible, right, and make sure that, you know, you minimize...
ANDERSON: Are you satisfied security forces were capable?
MOHAMMED: They did the best that they could at the moment, at that particular moment. You know, now obviously we'll have to just sharpen everything. We'll have to enhance, you know, our capabilities. Maybe we need different types of capacities, but at that moment, yes, they did the best. And we are extremely proud of our security forces.
ANDERSON: What happens going forward? Kenya stays in Somalia?
MOHAMMED: Yes. Absolutely
ANDERSON: Absolutely. 100 percent?
MOHAMMED: Yes. Absolutely.
ANDERSON: Kenya goes after elements of al Qaeda they believe...
MOHAMMED: Together with everybody else. You know, you saw the Americans in Barawei (ph). Everybody else I think is now involved. So all of us will -- I think our resolve was strengthened in a way, not just Kenya's resolve, but I think the international community's resolve. And I think we'll altogether go after them.
ANDERSON: Kenya pulling out of the ICC. Is that something you would support?
MOHAMMED: The parliament has passed a motion like that before. We did not pull out then. You know, we don't have to have a reason to pull out.
ANDERSON: Would you be disappointed if Kenya were to pull out of the ICC?
MOHAMMED: Yes, I would be. Yeah. Absolutely. I would be.
ANDERSON: You wouldn't vote for that?
MOHAMMED: I wouldn't. I would be disappointed. I would be disappointed because we signed, ratified and domesticated the wrong statute. We think that it actually sets good standards. We are disappointed with the interpretation and implementation of the statute. And we think that state parties we can work from within to change that. We can work from within the amend that statute where we think that is has given excessive powers to some officers.
FOSTER: Kenya's foreign secretary speaking to Becky earlier.
Well, still to come tonight, demonstrations and clashes with police break out in Paris after a Kosovar teenager was expelled from school and deported.
Also, lessons that could save lives. We'll see how chemical weapons inspectors are training for a dangerous mission in Syria.
And American federal employees head back to work, but for how long? More on the U.S. debt debacle coming up.
FOSTER: You're watching CNN. This is Connect the World with me Max Foster. Welcome back to you.
Now the death toll of the 7.1 magnitude earthquake in the central Philippines rose to over 160 people in Thursday. The quake hit on Tuesday, damaging thousands of homes and leaving over 150,000 people displaced. As of Thursday evening, more than 1,300 aftershocks were recorded.
Thousands of students have taken to the streets in Paris to protest against the deportation of a 15-year-old Kosovar girl and demand that she be allowed back into France. The demonstrations present a challenge for France's left-leaning government. The case raises questions about France's immigration policies and the government's prospects in next year's elections.
Syria's deputy prime minister says a long delayed peace conference will take place by the end of the year. Qadri Jamil says the exact date is up to the United Nations, but he believes the talk with Syrian opposition leaders dubbed Geneva II will take place in late November.
Jamil spoke to reporters in Moscow.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
QADRI JAMIL, SYRIAN DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER (through translator): The Geneva conference is fate for all of us. It's fate to take part in the Geneva conference. Why? Because everything is at a dead end.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOSTER: Weapons inspectors in Syria say they're making good progress. They're on a tight schedule to verify and help eliminate Syria's chemical stockpiles. But inspectors have now checked 11 out of 20 declared sites, destroying critical equipment at six of them. Their job would be difficult under any circumstances, but remember there's a war raging around them as we speak. Frederik Pleitgen shows how they've been preparing for the dangerous mission.
FRED PLEITGEN, CNN INTERNATOINAL CORRESPONDENT: A sudden explosion during a chemical weapons inspection. Chaos, fear, this is a training exercise, the lessons potentially lifesaving for inspectors as they do their work in war-torn Syria.
Franz Ontal is the head of inspector training.
FRANZ ONTAL, HEAD OF INSPECTOR TRAINING, OPCW: We are performing our inspections in the middle of a conflict. We've never done this before. It's not something that you could have foreseen two years ago and planned for.
PLEITGEN: These inspectors from the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons are being trained to identify dangerous situations to avoid getting kidnapped, but also to help as they witness violent events.
This hostile environment's training course is conducted by the German army.
(on camera): The German military makes this exercise as realistic as possible: the sounds, the pops that you hear, the hectic is exactly the same way it would be on the battlefield. And in this sort of environment, the weapons inspectors from the OPCW have to keep their composure and administer first-aid in a correct way.
(voice-over): The knowledge could be vital to these inspectors very soon.
OPCW has been tasked with cataloguing and monitoring the destruction of Bashar al-Assad's chemical weapons after a major chemical attack in the Damascus suburbs, though the regime denies it was responsible.
In August, snipers opened fire on a convoy of UN experts investigating suspected chemical weapons attacks. One vehicle was disabled in the attack. The inspectors were forced to turn back.
The German army's head of hostile environments training believes the biggest threats could be heard with the inspectors move in areas can (inaudible) regime forces and the opposition.
COL. REINHARD BARZ, GERMAN ARMY: We have different players in Syria. And I think that is not easy for the trainees here and for the job in Syria.
PLEITGEN: After the inspectors dressed all the pretended wounds in the exercise, the head of inspector training says he was satisfied with their performance.
ONTAL: Given a situation, a crisis situation, and a chaotic situation and people screaming in language that you don't understand, they were able to stop and assess the situation before they performed any action. And that, I think, was successfully done today.
PLEITGEN: But as realistic as this scenario was, it was just an exercise. The next stop for some of these chemical weapons experts could be Syria, one of the most dangerous places in the world.
Fred Pleitgen, CNN, Germany.
FOSTER: Nearly 100 bush fires are burning across southeastern Australia due to strong winds and high temperatures. This string of fires has been called the worst to hit New South Wales in more than a decade and it follows Australia's warmest 12 months to date. It's not yet clear how many homes have been destroyed, but it could be in the hundreds.
Let's go to Jenny Harrison at the world weather center for more on the story. What can you tell us, Jenny?
JENNY HARRISON, CNN WEATHER CORRESPONDENT: Well, Max. The good news, I think, is that the winds have actually begun to calm down quite considerably, likely to pick up again in the weekend, but in the meantime things are a lot better.
But just look at this image. This is Sydney. Now this is about an hour to an hour-and-a-half away from where these fires are burning. And what you can see is the smoke and the haze, of course, coming from these fires. So they really are being blown an awfully long way.
The winds at their strongest, 90 kilometers an hour. And when you've got winds that strong, the embers can blow as far as six kilometers, which is why these fires, of course, have just been spreading so very ferociously. This was at the setup very, very strong winds. You can see blowing, of course, toward Sydney. And this is all ahead of a cold front, so that's why the winds are so very, very strong.
All these fires are burning the smoke of course as you can see. Not surprising the Newcastle Airport was closed. Still is. And then in particular, these little grouping of fires, this is up in the Blue Mountains, Springwood, Winmalee, this is where some of the fires have actually taken the houses. Of course we don't know, indeed, how many fires, how many homes have actually been lost because of these fires, but the risk is very high.
The front that has gone through, this is eased the winds quite considerably, but there is another on the way. Not going to come through until the weekend, but at the weekend this is when we expect the danger to be increased, because the wind, again, is going to once again be on the increase.
Now, of course, the temperatures also plays quite a big part in this. It is the early hours of the morning. It is minus three in Canberry right now, that's well below the average for this time of the year, 14 in Sydney as you can see.
But this is the winds. Now, as you can see, they're sort of offshore for the most part in Sydney, but 20 kilometers an hour. So fairly brisk. We've got some high gusts in there as well.
But as we go through Friday into Saturday, the strongest winds probably about 26 kilometers an hour, so a lot lighter than they were. There will be some high gusts in there, of course, as well. And remember that these fires, they do reproduce their own conditions. There's no real rain in the forecast. This front that's coming through, it'll help to increase the humidity, so that's a good thing. When it comes to the temperatures by day, of course, they do go back up. But again, this time of year they're not particularly high, 21 for Canberra and Sydney.
But, Max, this is very, very early in the season to have such big fires burning. And of course so very close to such a big city such as Sydney. So we've got a big job on our hands over the next few days. We'll keep a very close eye on the situation, of course.
FOSTER: It's the timing that's frightening, isn't it? Jenny, thank you very much indeed.
Well, live from London, this is Connect the World. Coming up, government workers are back to work in America after 16 days. Museums open, rubbish has collected on federal property and bills will soon be paid as well. But how much damage has already been done? Find out after the break.
And it's not just something out of the history books, an astonishing number of people around the globe now live as modern-day slaves. A look at where the problem is the worst and why coming up.
FOSTER: Crisis averted, but narrowly. Congress reached an 11th hour deal to bring America back from the brink of natural disaster, but in the words of President Obama, the shutdown and the mere threat of a default inflicted, I quote, unnecessary damage on the U.S. economy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We know that just the threat of default of America not paying all the bills that we owe on time increased our borrowing costs, which adds to our deficit. And of course we know that the American people's frustration with what goes on in this town has never been higher. That's not a surprise that the American people are completely fed up with Washington.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOSTER: Well, according to the ratings agency, Standard and Poors the shutdown and debt ceiling debacle cost the economy $24 billion. To put that number into context, here's a look at what they could have bought. According to the World Food Program you could feed all 66 million hungry school aged children for more than seven years, and you could fund Doctors Without Borders program for all of America for 42 years, and that amount is about equal to El Salvador's annual GDP, yet that money was wasted, because Congress couldn't agree on a bipartisan measure.
And I must stress that the deal they struck was temporary. It only funds the American government until January 15 and raises the debt limit until February 7th. So congress could be back in this situation in just a few months time.
Joining me now is Richard Quest. So do you think it will be a case of deja vu in January, Richard?
RICHARD QUEST, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I'm afraid we just don't know. The odds are not good. They've set themselves very strong and strict target to reach a compromise committee by December. They failed to do it in the past. So if evidence is anything to go by of history there's no reason why they should do it again.
The only thing one can say is that next year with mid-term elections, there's a slight enthusiasm and an encouragement not to be blamed any more. So it would not surprise me, Max, if come January and February they do another patch up deal. I'm not going to use the dreaded phrase of kicking the can down the road. Why would you do that again? Well, because in a year's time there will be the mid-terms and do you want to get blamed?
So this can may get kicked a bit further off.
FOSTER: And lots of concern about what this really means for the reputation of the American economy, the American financial system. You know, this reliance on the dollar at the core of the global economy.
QUEST: And that won't change, certainly not in my working life and probably yours too. The U.S. is so much bigger and the markets are so much deeper and more liquid than anywhere else in the world that you are not going to change that overnight.
What you're going to see, though, is a credibility gap. People are going to be a little more cautious, a little bit more wary. But they're still going to do business here at the Transatlantic Partnership for Trade, which has been negotiated will still continue, as indeed it will with Asia. And that's for one simple reason, it is still by far and away the largest economy in the world. It is the most dynamic, it is the most open, all the good things for free trade that you hear us talk about time and again. That's not changing overnight.
What will change is that little bit of wariness that maybe China won't put as much money here and people will look to see to diversify just a little bit.
FOSTER: OK, Richard, as ever, thank you very much indeed for joining us.
The latest world news headlines just ahead. Plus, we look at the scourge of modern-day slavery and speak to one organization giving its all to the fight.
A British newspaper is now under parliamentary investigation for its role in the NSA intelligence leak scandal. We discussed the fine balance between press freedom and state security.
Plus, a home goal for this footballer's granddad who is cashing in on his grandson's success. Full story coming up.
FOSTER: This is Connect the World. Top stories this hour. U.S. President Barack Obama says there were no winners in the standoff over the government's budget battle. Congress broke an impasse on Wednesday with an agreement to restore cash flow, but only for a few months. The partial government shutdown is estimated to have cost more than $20 billion.
At least 34 people are dead and dozens of others injured after a series of explosions across Baghdad earlier today. Police say most of the blasts targeted amusement parks where families and kids usually go to celebrate the Eid holiday.
Investigators are focusing on the weather in a plane crash in Laos that's believed to have killed everyone on board. 44 passengers and five crew members were on the plane when it crashed near the Mekong River on Wednesday. Five bodies have been recovered, the rest are still missing. Witnesses say the plane was buffeted by strong winds.
Nearly 100 bush fires are burning across southeastern Australia. The string of fires is being called the worst to hit New South Wales in more than a decade. And it follows Australia's warmest 12 months to date. It's not yet clear how many homes have been destroyed, but they could be in the hundreds.
Well, it's something many people associate with the uglier chapters of human history: slavery. But a study released today shows the magnitude of this scourge going on right now. A report from Walk Free, an anti-slavery movement, says there are nearly 30 million people in modern-day slavery across the world.
More than three quarters of those are in just ten countries. India has the most people affected, followed by China, Pakistan, Nigeria, Ethiopia, and Russia. Those are the worst offenders in terms of sheer numbers.
The Global Slavery Index has also ranked countries in order of the seriousness of their slavery situations. As you can see, Mauritania, in first place, scores nearly twice as badly as Haiti, which is second on the list.
While the numbers are shocking, each represents a person who's been stripped of their freedom. Becky shares some of their stories.
BECKY ANDERSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Child brides.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Even in front of the police, my father said he would kill me if I don't go back.
ANDERSON: Bonded laborers.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They hit me if I didn't work. The owner said we'll have to work as long as we live.
ANDERSON: Sex slaves.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was forced to watch a young child being raped and sodomized in front of me.
ANDERSON: All exploited and robbed of their free will. Sadly, in 2013, their stories are far more prevalent then you'd expect: 29.8 million. That's the staggering estimate of how many people around the world are living as modern-day slaves, according to Walk Free Foundation. The number is cited in the foundation's Global Slavery Index which, for the first time, provides a map, country by country, of the depth and breadth of the scourge.
These ten countries account for 76 percent of the world's enslaved people: China, Russia, Nigeria, Pakistan, are all in there. But India, the world's second-most populous nation, has by far the highest number of slaves, estimated at between 13 million and 14.5 million people.
NICK GRONO, CEO, WALK FREE FOUNDATION: A lot of experts would say that's a conservative number. India has a massive problem with forced labor, bonded labor. There are whole communities that are forced to work on brick kilns or forced to work in stone quarries, kids who are working in -- carpet factories. So, it's a massive problem.
ANDERSON: But the index found that it is Mauritania, which was the last country to outlaw slavery in 1961, where the problem is most prevalent. With an estimated 1 in 5 citizens bonded to a master, tradition is proving hard to break.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Chains are for the slave who has just become a slave. But the multigenerational slave, he is a slave even in his own head.
ANDERSON: Equally, Haiti, which is famous for one of the first successful fights against slavery in the 18th century, has regressed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the shameful conditions of Haiti's slums, as many as 300,000 children work as domestic servants.
ANDERSON: According to the index, poverty, exacerbated by environmental disasters, has made slavery especially common in Haiti.
ANDERSON (on camera): What makes this index such a valuable tool in the fight against modern-day slavery is that it identifies key risk factors for countries and measures they can implement in order to reduce them, whether that be signing up to an anti-slavery convention or introducing policies that might challenge cultural perceptions that it's OK to deny somebody their freedom.
Becky Anderson, CNN, London.
FOSTER: Let's bring in Professor Kevin Bales, he's a co-founder of the organization Free the Slaves. He's also a professor of contemporary slavery at the Wilberforce Institute here in the UK. Thank you so much for joining us.
KEVIN BALES, CO-FOUNDER, FREE THE SLAVES: Great to be here, Max.
FOSTER: I just need to ask you -- sort of question your numbers, really, because how do you ever measure those hidden figures? We don't know, realistically, how many slaves there are because it's obviously by the nature of it a secret business.
BALES: You're absolutely right. It's a hidden crime. But there are ways to get at the actual occurrence of the number of people in slavery. One of the things that we've had a bit of a breakthrough with is the application of random sample surveys.
In some countries, we were able to go to households and say, "Has anything like this happened to anyone in your family, in your household?" And for those countries, we've been able to determine the proportion of their population -- their national population -- who've been caught up and victimized, usually in human trafficking.
So, for the first time, we have a sound, reliable statistical base. And then we begin to build extrapolation from there to extend this estimation to other countries.
FOSTER: What's the margin of error, would you say, with the figures that you've --
BALES: I would say you can be thinking easily 5 percent, possibly 10 percent in the margin of error. But --
FOSTER: Have you been on the conservative side, or have you --
FOSTER: -- gone to the middle.
BALES: No, we've always erred on the conservative side. And as it especially applies to the secondary source, information from police, governments, NGOs, and so forth, we always lean on the conservative side.
FOSTER: So, this is obviously useful because it then helps to inform policy. But you've found that you've yet got the confidence of governments and legal officials to act on these numbers which, as you say, are hard to confirm.
BALES: Well, I have to say, the -- most of these officials are feeling comfortable with these numbers. We were meeting with police in Britain today, and they were saying, "These are great numbers. We actually think they're higher and that you've been too conservative, but this is very useful to us to begin to build our policy."
FOSTER: And how do you see them building policy on these numbers?
BALES: Well, certainly in this country, in Great Britain, we actually have a new law in the works in Parliament right now which will change the focus of the way people are treated who have been in slavery, businesses approached in slavery, new legal -- new laws for prosecution and so forth.
Around the world, countries are at very different stages. A country like Brazil, in fact, leads the world. It has a national plan to eradicate slavery, it has a "dirty list," where they put every company that's ever had slavery pollute their products, they have special anti-slavery police squads that are expert in this area. They're fantastic.
Other countries, not so good. But we're hoping that this index report will be a bit of a wake-up call, especially to the rich countries that have the lowest amounts of slavery, because really, when you have good law enforcement, you have no corruption --
FOSTER: There shouldn't be any excuse.
BALES: There shouldn't be any excuse.
FOSTER: Can I just ask you, you've got this title, Professor of Slavery, and it can be an emotive term, can't it, in countries where actually they're just looking at a lack of choices? And we would regard any of those choices as slavery, but they don't necessarily view it as slavery. They feel that actually it's an unsympathetic word. How do you respond to that?
BALES: Well, in -- it's very easy to respond to that, because I spend a lot of time talking to people who have been or are in slavery, and when you talk to them about it, they know what the situation is. They understand --
FOSTER: They feel it.
BALES: They feel it, they live it, they experience what slavery is. We're not talking about bad choices. We're not talking about crummy jobs in a sweat shop. We're talking about real, live slavery. You can't walk away, you're controlled through violence, you're treated like property. The same kind of slavery that's existed for all of human history, that's the kind of slavery we're looking at today.
That's one of the reasons why this number is at 29.8 million, actually a small number. There are plenty of horrible types of exploitation going on around the world. They're terrible, but they're not slavery. This is slavery.
FOSTER: There's this general agreement in the world that slavery is bad. Is it a huge frustration to you that it continues to exist? Where's the barrier here? Why does it keep reemerging?
BALES: Well, I don't think it's ever reemerged, because I don't think it's ever gone away. But -- and of course it's a -- it's a frustration, because there is a universal moral consensus that we need to get rid of this.
The problem is more about a sort of willful ignorance that people say, oh, it disappeared in the 19th century, so we don't have to worry about this anymore, or it only happens in those poor countries, or it only happens to those people who kind of bring it on themselves.
There's a lot of excuses, a lot of justifications, but step-by-step, we're showing there are specific interventions that can be very successful in specific situations of slavery.
FOSTER: So, we're making progress.
FOSTER: Good to hear. Professor Bales, thank you very much for joining us.
BALES: Great to be with you.
FOSTER: Tomorrow on CONNECT THE WORLD, Becky sits down with the head of the human trafficking unit at the UK's Metropolitan Police. He says more resources and cooperation are needed to tackle these criminals.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEVIN HYLAND, UK METROPOLITAN POLICE SPECIAL UNIT: We need to make it easier to work internationally because it's source countries where people are brought from, we need to be able to respond quickly. A trafficker can get a person and book them on a flight as quick as they can book a ticket online. For the law enforcement to chase that up can take weeks, months, and even years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOSTER: And that interview tomorrow at 8:00 in London, 9:00 in Berlin, 11:00 in Abu Dhabi, and you can find out much more about the Freedom Project, that's CNN's fight against modern-day slavery, by going online. Just head to cnn.com/freedom.
Live from London, you're watching CONNECT THE WORLD. Britain's "Guardian" newspaper is under the spotlight again for publishing the NSA intelligence leaks story. But is it an attack on press freedom? We discuss that ahead.
Plus, the Bishop of Limburg in Germany is facing scrutiny for being too luxurious.
FOSTER: A parliamentary committee here in the UK says it'll investigate the "Guardian" newspaper for publishing leaked intelligence obtained by Edward Snowden. British prime minister David Cameron has led calls for an inquiry into whether that put state security at risk.
Let's take a look back at the story, because in June, the "Guardian" reported the US National Security Agency mined phone and Internet data of thousands of people inside and outside America. Within days, the newspaper disclosed that its source for the information was former US intelligence contractor Edward Snowden.
Shortly after, he revealed information suggesting the British Electronic Intelligence Agency tried to monitor international delegates during a G20 summit. Let's bring in Joel Simon, executive director of the Committee to Protect Journalists. He joins us from Washington via Skype. And your response, first of all, to David Cameron's comments?
JOEL SIMON, EXECUTIVE DIRECTORY, COMMITTEE TO PROTECT JOURNALISTS: Troubling. I'm -- we were troubled by them. We -- this is an assertion that says the "Guardian's" reporting somehow damaged national security. That's a very troubling allegation, but there's no evidence to support it.
For the government to carry out any sort of inquiry into the activities of the media is always a dangerous precedent, a slippery slope. So, we're very troubled by these developments.
FOSTER: What about the balance of the greater good? You have a leak and you have the damage done to security of the country, how do you balance that ultimately? Isn't there a debate to be had there?
SIMON: Absolutely there's a debate. But there's no other system other than you have to have responsible editors make determinations. You certainly don't want to have government censorship. Who else is going to make a determination?
And in this case, the "Guardian" made a determination that based on its own informed judgment that this information could be published and should be published.
These are the kinds of decisions that editors make every day. They're difficult decisions. They're weighty decisions. But this is the role of the media. And for the government to then suggest that a news publication and its editor could potentially be subjected to criminal liability as a result of editorial decisions, that's very troubling.
FOSTER: So, you wouldn't have a problem with Cameron calling the editor irresponsible and having a verbal battle with him?
SIMON: Oh, no. That's -- absolutely within his purview. He has a right to exercise his free speech just like anyone else. But there's a natural balance, a tension, between government and the news media.
The government has a compelling interest in many circumstances to maintain the secrecy of information. The news media wants to make it public. They don't always agree on the appropriate balance.
But for the government to then take legal action is, in many -- it certainly can be an abuse of the authority that government has in these particular instances. So --
FOSTER: Where --
SIMON: Go ahead, sorry.
FOSTER: Where is the line, though? Because you can push things further and further even more than the "Guardian's" done and put people at risk. At what point does it become something where authorities can get involved?
Because obviously, there are laws in place, and some people are arguing, security service people arguing, that the "Guardian" has crossed a legal line. They have acted criminally.
SIMON: But they're asserting it. I think that's precisely the problem. What specific harm has been done? It's not clear. Certainly --
FOSTER: But won't that be decided from the criminal process that follows what Cameron is suggesting should be investigated?
SIMON: Well, again, it has -- it's an extraordinary step. It's very chilling for a government to suggest that a media organization should be criminally investigated. It's obvious that the government has been -- is upset by the revelations that have been made that they -- they obviously didn't want them to be made. But to suggest that the appropriate response is a criminal investigation --
And also, I think the prime minister mischaracterized aspects of what has actually occurred. And that's troubling. He suggested that the "Guardian" had given up its hard drive after being politely asked by police officials.
But that's not at all what took place, and the "Guardian" has made claim that it came under tremendous pressure and that it reluctantly agreed to destroy its hard drives and only did so because the documents were housed outside of the country.
FOSTER: But back to what Cameron's saying, though. You may or may not have a problem with what he's saying, but ultimately, it will be the courts that will make the decision on this anyway. So why not just let him have his say and then allow the process to go through the legal system if you have faith in the system overall and the legal system will back the editor?
SIMON: Because this is -- once the prime minister expresses support for some sort of legal inquiry, then the independence of the process is -- can be questioned. This was clearly a -- he spoke out directly in support of this possible criminal investigation, so that's one of the aspects that's troubling.
FOSTER: OK. Joel Simon, we very much appreciate your time. Thank you for joining us.
Coming up after this short break on CONNECT THE WORLD, a German bishop is facing scrutiny for enjoying the finer things in life. And no doubt footballer Harry Wilson is very lucky to have gotten his big break, but his grandfather may be even luckier.
FOSTER: A German bishop is facing scrutiny and calls for his resignation. It was revealed that he spent as much as $42 million on his private residence as well as spending on first-class flights. The controversy comes at a time when Pope Francis is stressing humility and serving the poor. Diana Magnay has more.
DIANA MAGNAY, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Here you have, if you will, the two faces of today's Catholic Church: the old and the new. Pope Francis, with his message of humility and change, declaring from his modest quarters in the Santa Marta guest house that priests should not live like princes.
And German bishop Franz-Peter Tebartz-van Elst, theologically conservative and also, it seems, a believer in the finer things in life, having just renovated his Episcopal residence in the German town of Limburg to the tune of $42 million. Though it's no eyesore, Limburg residents aren't pleased with a project that's run drastically over budget.
RAINMUND CHAMPERT, LINDBURG RESIDENT (through translator): As a Catholic, it is something that completely doesn't fit with the times today. Such a prestige project that the church pushes through.
PATRICK DEHM, FORMER LEADER, FRANKFURT CATHOLIC COMMUNITY CENTER (through translator): He built his office on lies. This must come to an end. The diocese does not deserve this.
MAGNAY: Many within and beyond Limburg are calling on the bishop to resign, but Tebartz-van Elst insists the cost overruns were legitimate and came from the renovation of protected features, such as the old city wall. He says his fate lies in the hand of the Holy Father.
Archbishop Robert Zollitsch, who heads Germany's Catholic Church, met with Pope Francis on Thursday. He says a commission set up to investigate the bishop's spending will start its work immediately, and that he's, quote, "confident" after his meeting that all sides are interested in a good and speedy resolution.
Perhaps an indication that Pope Francis is prepared to wait on the commission's results before he responds to a scandal whose momentum is overshadowing his reform efforts.
MAGNAY (on camera): The German press has come down hard on Bishop Tebartz-van Elst, "Der Spiegel" especially criticizing him for a first- class flight he took to India to visit social services for the poor. He says that he was upgraded and that he doesn't like champagne and caviar in any case.
But it seems that he is now going for a cheaper option, according to media reports, flying to Rome on a budget airline, where he awaits word on his future.
Diana Magnay, CNN, Berlin.
FOSTER: Let's go to CNN contributor, Father Edward Beck in New York, to see what he thinks about this story. There's a couple of problems here, aren't there? And the first one that comes to mind is how this managed to get to the level it did, that the systems -- the financial sort of reporting systems within the church -- aren't working properly.
EDWARD BECK, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well certainly, Max, that's part of it. But I think it's a little bit unclear when we say he spent $40 million on a residence. Not at all to justify any of it, but this was a diocesan compound, so you're talking about diocesan offices, a chapel, a museum, and the residence is part of that.
The original budget was $10 million. We understand it ballooned to $30 million. So it's not all on a residence. Supposedly about $3 million on the residence. Still excessive? Yes. But I think we have to be clear that we're talking about a large compound here and not just the residence for the bishop.
FOSTER: Are you concerned that the tabloids have run away with this a bit too much? We need to wait to hear what the investigators actually discover?
BECK: Well, yes, of course. It's kind of a sexy story in some ways. In contrast -- when put this next to Pope Francis, who is shunning the apostolic palace, who's driving around in a Fiat, who's sleeping St. Marta's residence, it looks like, hey, what is this bishop doing?
And of course, there's something here. Obviously, this was too much money to spend. However, I think you've got to wait until all the reports are in, what was the money spent on? Why did it balloon the way it did? And you just have to give a fair hearing. I think everyone's jumping on it, and understandably so.
But the archbishop, now, of Germany, one of the archbishops, the head of the conference, is there, speaking with Pope Francis, very -- as of yesterday. And supposedly, now, this bishop is also in Rome. We don't know whether or not he's going to meet with Pope Francis. There is some word that he might, and I'm sure they'll have a conversation about it.
And he has overstepped his bounds, no doubt. But again, it becomes a little sensationalistic when, I think, it's reported in the way it has been, because it's not exactly accurate.
FOSTER: It very much -- very quickly, though, it doesn't become a story about this bishop, it becomes a story about the pope because, as you say, it plays into exactly what he's trying to do in redefining himself and the church.
How do you think he's going to be tested on this? How does he need to respond in order to keep those credentials he's built up?
BECK: Well again, the pope is a religious individual, a Jesuit. He takes a vow of poverty. So, he has committed himself to living simply his whole life. And he expects his priests to do the same. We should note, not all priests take a vow of poverty. Diocesan priests don't take a vow of poverty. They get a salary, they can inherit money from their family.
So, it's kind of distinction to be made that religious priests do live somewhat differently from Diocesan priests. Now, that does not excuse the behavior. All are called to radical gospel simplicity.
But I think what this pope is trying to say is, when people are starving in the world, when people are poor, we as the church have to lead by saying we are going to make our resources available to those people, and we're certainly not going to be spendthrifts.
And so, he's going to be calling the church to that radical simplicity of Jesus, of the Gospel, which is already done, and I think he's going to do it with this particular bishop.
Interestingly, this bishop gave a sermon in August, Max, and he said whoever experiences poverty in person will discover the true greatness of God. Well, I have a feeling that after meeting with Pope Francis, this bishop may be discovering just how great God is.
FOSTER: I think you're right, there. Father Edward Beck, thank you very much, indeed, for joining us.
Prince William hosted his first investiture ceremony at Buckingham Palace today, signifying an expansion of his public duties. The prince honored tennis star Andy Murray with the Order of the British Empire, known also as the OBE.
The OBE recognizes distinguish service to the arts, sciences, and public services, and was first bestowed in 1917. Here's what Murray had to say after receiving the honor.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDY MURRAY, DEFENDING WIMBLEDON CHAMPION: It obviously means a lot to me, and it's just nice having them around to be there. I think they were great. My girlfriend is massively into anything royal. She was so excited by coming here to Buckingham Palace for the first time, so yes, it was a great day for us, and it's good to be back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOSTER: A good day for Andy Murray, and for tonight's Parting Shots, a grandfather's dream comes true with an added bonus. Jim Boulden reports.
JIM BOULDEN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On Tuesday night, 16-year-old Harry Wilson came on for Wales with a few minutes to go in its World Cup qualifier in Belgium. And back in Wales, his proud grandfather became a lot richer.
PETER EDWARDS, PROUD GRANDFATHER: I honestly didn't expect it for a few years yet.
BOULDEN: Peter Edwards always hoped grandson Harry would play for Wales, but thought maybe it would take a few more years, though he saw something special when Harry was a toddler.
EDWARDS: He was crawling after the ball in the living room, so I just thought it wouldn't be a bad idea to put a bet on that someday he might play for Wales.
BOULDEN: Proud granddad went to a local betting shop and put down 50 pounds, around US $80 today, a wager that his grandson would play football for Wales. So bookmaker William Hill took the bet.
EDWARDS: And they offered me odds of 2,500 to 1, so I felt I better take it.
BOULDEN: Granddad Peter waited and kept working as an electrician, but now, with his grandson taking the field for Wales, he collects 125,000 pounds, around $200,000, on that bet. And 62-year-old granddad Peter is retiring a year early, just as 16-year-old Harry's international career takes off.
Jim Boulden, CNN, London.
FOSTER: I'm Max Foster, that was CONNECT THE WORLD, thank you for watching.