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Like Mother Like Daughter?

Aired October 21, 2013 - 21:00   ET



DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, her daughter was charged in the suicide of a classmate, and now, mom`s in jail for child abuse.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The apple doesn`t fall far from the tree.

PINSKY: You will see the disturbing video that led to her arrest.

Plus, another case of child abuse caught on tape. My behavior bureau looks at the viral video that put a couple behind bars.

And did this 36-year-old mother rape her own daughter`s boyfriend?

Let`s get started.



PINSKY: Amazing stories tonight. My co-host is Samantha Schacher, host of "Pop Trigger" on the Young Turks network.

And we have a number of disturbing videos to show you tonight. Violent behavior documented on tape, in each of them, adults -- Sam, I use the term sparingly here.


PINSKY: Parents behaving badly.

First up, I have the case of Rebecca Sedwick, the 12-year-old who killed herself after allegedly having been tormented to death. Two of her classmates are facing criminal charges. Now, we have new video, and, Sam, I was saying this last week, one of the girls` mothers viciously beating children in her own home. This has now surfaced.

I said it, the sheriff said it, you hearing it, the apple doesn`t fall far from the tree. That`s right. I wouldn`t even think about it that way. I would think trauma gets transmitted. This is how the mom does it.

She now faces criminal charges of her own. Take a look at this tape.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I bullied Rebecca, and she killed herself, but I don`t give a (EXPLETIVE DELETED). Guadalupe Shaw convinced Katelyn that she should not be friends with her and that she should torment her as well.

This all started apparently as a result of Guadalupe`s current girlfriend who was Rebecca`s former boyfriend. Rebecca was absolutely terrorized on social media.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shaw`s parents went on national TV and said, oh, no, not our little girl.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My daughter is not that type of girl to do something like that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The mom was arrested just five days after Vosburg`s daughter 14-year-old Guadalupe Shaw was arrested and charged with aggravated stalking.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The apple doesn`t fall far from the tree.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Vivian Vosburg now under arrest, charged with child abuse.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was beating on the two kids with her fists.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Vivian Vosburg seen in a Facebook video hitting a teenage boy over and over.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She actually beat them in the face and in the head.

PINSKY: Many times the kids that are bullying oftentimes had abuse history or themselves are suffering in some sort of significant way.


PINSKY: Trauma gets transmitted from adults to children. We`re going to show you this disturbing video in just a second.

Joining myself and Sam: Lynn Berry, HLN host; Mark Eiglarsh, attorney at; Dean Obeidallah, and "Daily Beast" contributor; and Anahita Sedaghatfar, defense attorney.

Now, here we go, guys. I`m going to show you some of the tape of Guadalupe, one of the bullies children, girls, Guadalupe`s mother beating a teenage boy after she had apparently caught them fighting and, again, graphic video, play now.



You know what? You all right, bro? Why (AUDIO DELETED) start hitting him? Because (AUDIO DELETED) had him pinned up and (AUDIO DELETED) couldn`t breath. So (AUDIO DELETED) kicked him in the (EXPLETIVE DELETED).


PINSKY: You know what? It is --

SCHACHER: You called this last week, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: I did call it.

SCHACHER: So disturbing.

PINSKY: Almost impossible to figure out what`s going on. I wonder if the control room can queue it up again. I think you can miss just how violent this woman is.

My point is this is not an isolated incident. There it is again. While I speak, let`s just show it so you can get a sense of the aggression that comes out of this woman. Why? Because kids are horsing around.

I`m sure, Mark, that`s how you discipline your kids. We were watching you on Skype. I saw you yelling at your kids.

MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Yes, no, that is not my choice. And let me tell you something, she needs help. She needs help. I`ll tell you this. This is a woman whose reaction to the world was, I check my daughter`s Facebook account every single night, which caused us all to chuckle in my household, because that was horse crap.

Now, let me tell you something, she then really bothered, we`ll say, the sheriff. He continued to investigate her, and found this on the Facebook page of a friend.

PINSKY: Yes. And, Mark, she came out with more nonsense when she said that the beating was an accident, it, quote, "got out of hand," because, quote, "I was having a bad day."

SCHACHER: Just like saying that her daughter`s disgusting Facebook post, oh, somebody hacked her account. Always blame the victim.

EIGLARSH: That worked for Weiner, yes.

PINSKY: Now, I`m surprised Mark says she needs help. Anahita, you were chiming in. You guys are the attorneys, aren`t you wanted to take -- shouldn`t there be some legal maneuvers here against this woman?

ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, ATTORNEY: No legal maneuvers here, Dr. Drew. Is anyone shocked that this is the mother of a 14-year-old girl who harassed and tortured a 12-year-old girl, her classmate literally to her death? I mean, is anyone surprised this wasn`t a beaver cleaver household?

This is totally learned behavior. I guarantee you, if you look into this mother`s background, and I`m using that term "mother" very loosely, you will see she was traumatized as well. It`s a vicious cycle.

PINSKY: It is a cycle of abuse. It`s intergenerational transmission.

Dean, I see you nodding your head vigorously. I want to show you first, though, what Guadalupe`s mother Vivian said just two days before her arrest. Take a look at this, and you`ll respond.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She never once, you know, bullied this girl online. I don`t think it`s fair for me and my husband to be, you know, punished for something that they`re saying that my daughter did, and my daughter is being for something that she didn`t do.


PINSKY: There you have it, Dean. Have at it.

DEAN OBEIDALLAH, DAILY BEAST: Well, I`ll be honest with you. You have to credit to the sheriff because the sheriff in this case pursued the mother from -- remember, days ago said I want to charge this mother. She didn`t cooperate, she would not bring the kids in for questions, she denied any kind of wrongdoing whatsoever, this sheriff was like the U.S. marshal and the fugitive chasing Richard Kimble. He would not stop until he got her.

It sends a message frankly. That`s what this is about, sending a message to other parents, you have to be engaged in your kids` lives. The sheriff said stop being a best friend, you have to be a parent. Sometimes it means making tough decisions, not being popular, and beating your children like that is ridiculous.

PINSKIY: Lynn, I know you`ve been following this story since the beginning. I`m curious on your thoughts. But go ahead.

LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST: Well, Dean just makes a great point. The reason the sheriff says he`s been so adamant is he`s the one that found, as he refers to it, this little baby debt at the bottom of a silo, jumped to her death. And he said that is the reason he`s so passionate about finding justice here and there could be a lot of schools out there paying attention to this, and bring sheriffs in from all over your town, and have them talk to kids, and say we are going to charge you and the full weight of the law will fall upon you, if you bully kids in this manner.

PINSKY: And the parents will be looked after, because they figure that`s wisely, where it`s coming from.


SCHACHER: Dr. Drew, can you tell me the difference between transferred trauma, as you spoke about, and conditioned behavior, learning from their mother? Is that the same thing?

PINSKY: People argue these points all the time. Let`s just say that it is an option that they don`t -- they see that as aggress as a solution to any problem. They also have unregulated emotion from having been traumatized themselves, so they can`t contain their aggression, sort of a double whammy.

Anahita, you wanted to comment, too.

SEDAGHATFAR: I was going to say, Dr. Drew, it`s important we make a distinction between the incident we saw, this mother beating up and abusing the children, versus her liability or lack thereof for her daughter`s conduct and cyber-bullying this poor little girl.

PINSKY: But it`s an interesting point, though. There is the sheriff sniffed out a connection here, I saw a probable connection here.

SEDAGHATFAR: But there shouldn`t be --

PINSKY: Do we need to rally investigate home that is have bullying kids more carefully? Is that what you`re saying?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely, no question.

SEDAGHATAR: We definitely should do that, but do I think that it`s right to criminally prosecute parents for the conduct of their children online in absolutely not. I`ve said this before. That creates a dangerous slippery slope, Dr. Drew, because there is no way any parent - - you can testify to this, I`m sure, can monitor their child`s activity online. There`s no way.

PINSKY: Listen, that`s the whole problem with this. When you, quote, "blame a parent," you create another victim. Mark, finish me up.

EIGLARSH: I am not adverse to changing the law, make it narrowly driven and very specific to hold parents accountable, if not just their kinds sent one text message, but a period like this, 11 months, and the parents knew or participated in my way, to me that`s clear respect and deserving criminal prosecution.


SCHACHER: I like it, Mark. I like it.

PINSKY: There you go guys.

SEDAGHATFAR: No way. A slippery slope.

PINSKY: When you attorneys use the slippery slope stuff, that drives me crazy, but that`s another conversation, another time. Next up --

SCHACHER: There has to be a solution.

PINSKY: I have Rebecca Sedwick`s mother. She`s going to join me with the behavior bureau, with everyone`s reaction to that video. There she is there.

And later still, another case of alleged child abuse. This young mother is caught on tape slapping and tugging, and you`ve got to see this video. Her crying baby the whole time. It is heartbreaking. We`ll be right back.



TRICIA NORMAN, REBECCA SEDWICK`S MOM: I personally wonder where they learned all this viciousness from at such a young age. I mean, they`re kids 12 and 14. She should be here. She should be here to see justice getting served.


PINSKY: Now, we know something about that, don`t we? My co-host, we`re talking about the two girls who allegedly tormented a 12-year-old classmate so severely that she committed suicide.

The mother of one of the girls has been arrested for allegedly beating her own children in her own home.

So, I want to bring in the behavior bureau, beginning with Casey Jordan, criminologist, attorney and host of "Wives with Knives" on Investigation Discovery; Jillian Barberie, television host and social commentator; Wendy Walsh, psychologist; and Jennifer Keitt, a talk radio host.

And joining us by phone, I have Tricia Norman. She is the mother of Rebecca Sedwick, the girl who had committed suicide. She`s with us exclusively, along with her attorney, Matt Morgan (ph), who will be listening along with her.

Tricia, I wonder if you had a reaction to the video that we all just looked at.

NORMAN (via telephone): It was shocking to actually see a video like that, but it wasn`t very surprising.

PINSKY: You asked the question in a little piece of tape we saw of you coming into this segment, wondering where the girls learned this? I think we now understand where this came from.

NORMAN: Yes, sir, we do.

PINSKY: Tricia, I understand you`re teaming up with the governor to make a big announcement. Can you tell us about that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, Dr. Drew, on Thursday we plan to hold a press conference with Governor Crist. Governor Crist is passionate about finding a solution to cyber-bullying. On Thursday, we will make an announcement with regard to Rebecca`s case, and the govern are --

PINSKY: Hats off to you, Matt, for doing so, but don`t let them leave out this piece. This piece of trauma being transmitted in the home, which is where so many of this comes from. My question, Tricia, do you hold the parents responsible for these daughters` behavior?

NORMAN: Yes, I do. For it to go on for so long and for a parent to say they didn`t know it was going on for so long is just unbelievable to me.

PINSKY: Tricia, once again, on behalf of the behavior bureau and everyone here, our hearts go to you. We thank you for joining us. We absolutely wish you the best. If there`s anything we can do to support, please let us know, OK?

NORMAN: All right. Thank you.

PINSKY: I want to get the panel`s response to all of this. Jillian, I`m going to start with you. You saw the tape. What do we do with this?

Trauma is transmitted through generation. I know you have strong feelings about this. Let`s hear it.

JILLIAN BARBERIE, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, you know, being a mom and listening to Tricia speak, of course, my heart breaks for her, but at some point, you know, you have to say it is learned behavior, but 12 years old is not 12 years old anymore, you know? I at 12 was not doing the things -- the social media is insane. Obviously, Rebecca was a different kind of girl than these two girls, but these two girls are way beyond 12 years old. I think that`s why they need to be treated as adults. I --

PINSKY: Oh, interesting.

BARBERIE: Yes, I don`t believe in juvenile behavior on this instance at all. I commend the sheriff. I think he was amazing in goods after the root of this. And I realize, Dr. Drew, you`re more passionate about the problem and where that lies.

I was so not shocked at all to see this video, and I just feel that these girls should be treated not as juveniles.

PINSKY: All right. OK, Wendy has a reaction to that.

WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: I do. Jillian, you know I love you, but the developing brain is a very interesting instrument. Although children have matured biologically, physiologically in terms of their sexuality, and you`ll see them mimicking a lot of adult behavior, because they`re picking up stuff they`re getting from the media that`s pouring into their head, and from the Internet, the truth is they are still children. They don`t -- now, they know how to tell right from wrong --

PINSKY: Maybe, sometimes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, wait a minute.

WALSH: The personality development is still not fully developed.

BARBERIE: Well, they may still be children, Wendy, but they`re not acting like children.

WALSH: Exactly. They`re mimicking adult behavior.

SCHACHER: Dr. Drew, with the older of the two bullies, because I want to separate her. She`s the one that wrote that horrible disgusting Facebook post after the affect that Rebecca killed herself. With her, can`t you say there`s something even more callous about her in particular, because she`s demonstrated zero remorse, taken zero accountability, and really seems to not give an F.

PINSKY: She says specifically IDGAF.

Jennifer, your reaction to that?

JENNIFER KEITT, TALK RADIO HOST: I think I`m with you, Dr. Drew, that talking about house this girl learned what she is right now is what is absolutely vital. I`m a mom of four. I know that I have taught who I am. I believe wholeheartedly she learned the skills, the behaviors, the way she is carrying on directly from that woman that is right next to her, her mother. And we have got to talk about that.

I agree she`s still a child, doing some awful, awful things, but I also agree her mom and that relationship has got to be looked at much closer.

PINSKY: And, Casey, I`m going to have you react. And I wonder, in that reaction, if you can also think a little bit about this issue of intergenerational transmission -- this mom as something pointed out no doubt was beaten when she was a kid. Where do we hold people accountable? Where do we stop?

CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Well, exactly and keep thinking of (INAUDIBLE) in the 1980s, wrote about the process of violentization (ph), and then it starts, of course, with brutalization and then belligerency.

And it`s the full circle of how kids who witnessed abuse or are abused themselves, and we have this video to show the mother --

PINSKY: But, Casey, let`s break I want you to break that down again -- because you said, you packed a lot into that. There`s a couple of things, which is witnessing violence in the home has very similar effect of being beaten does it not?

JORDAN: Absolutely. And we don`t know that this girl hasn`t been subject to physical violence herself. But whether it`s physical, emotion, psychological, if she witnesses it, she models her behavior, that if you have a conflict with somebody, this is how you act out vindictively, with anger and with violence.

From that, you get the brutalization process, where they become belligerent and they start to show off, and then they enter a virulency stage and have to impress their friends. That`s where social media comes in. And now, you have a girl who`s going to come full circle from what she`s witnessed, to acting out and modeling or demonstrating that - -

SCHACHER: How do we break the cycle, though?

PINSKY: Who wants to take that on? Raise your hand. I`ll take somebody --

BARBERIE: You know, Dr. Drew, there`s cause-and-effect. Their cause was to torment this girl. The effect was she killed herself. When do we stop blaming the mom?

We`ve all had stuff in our lives. We`ve all had some sort of trauma. Does that make us all --

PINSKY: Jillian, you`ve had --

WALSH: It`s not a level playing field.

PINSKY: But, Jillian had a big dose of trauma. How do you feel about that, having been subject to some stuff yourself?

BARBERIE: I believe that the mother is accountable. I believe that the 14-year-old girl is accountable. I disagree with Wendy. She`s a child, but she`s certainly not acting like an innocent child. I think we have to be accountable.

The actions that you took are -- you have to have some responsibility, and we keep passing things off. Her mom was abusive, and she`s going to be -- it has to stop somewhere. And we have to set an example.


PINSKY: I do -- wait, Wendy, you respond to that and also, I believe humans are inherently good, we create aggression and bad things, humans are little animals and we have to be socialized, but really aggressive behavior, lack of empty think, that is indoctrinated. That`s something brought into the world, do you agree?

WALSH: I agree. I think she`s not acting like a child. She`s acting like a damaged child.

I promise you at one point in her life when she brought her pain to an adult someone said I don`t give a F.


WALSH: That`s where she learned that her parent is not important. The answer is do we use our good tax money to put children and maybe their parents in jail in a holding tank that cost $70,000 a year?

Or do we intervene and surround this family with education and services to help them change this cycle of violence?

PINSKY: Jillian, that would be the kind of people that would laugh. Like the mother, you know --

SCHACHER: She denies everything.

BARBERIE: Of course, so you think she`s going to accept this now and people are going to come in and tried to help her? I think she`s beyond that.

PINSKY: Everybody, we`ve got to switch gears and talk about another unsettling video of a mom slapping her baby daughter, her boyfriend shaking an infant.

And later, I`ve got a 36-year-old, with a 15-year-old. Police say that is rape. Hear how this woman, seen here in court, justifies her behavior.

We`ll be right back.


PINSKY: We have another story of alleged child abuse. And a warning on this one, the video obtained by CNN affiliate KUSA is disturbing. You will hear the reporter on this tape, as well as the parents of a 1-year-old baby. Now, I warned you, you`re going to watch a 1-year-old baby being treated in ways that are unimaginable.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A child looking for attention. Clearly the parents were annoyed. So, they used force, thinking that would solve the problem.


PINSKY: OK. That is -- that was the -- there you see it again, they`re yanking the baby up by the arm. What you saw there first was him shaking his head and sort of mimicking back to him in an aggressive way. The baby`s 21-year-old mother Reba Doyle (ph) and her boyfriend Scott Lyles (ph) have been charged with child abuse. Neither of the public defenders have returned or calls, and a manager at county human services did try to put us in touch with the appropriate supervisors, but could not elaborate.

The panel is back. Lynn Berry, Mark Eiglarsh, Dean Obeidallah, Anahita Sedaghatfar.

Lynn, give us the back story on this video.

BERRY: Dr. Drew, first, I just have to say, I watched that video without the baby`s face blurred. She also slaps the baby across the face. You can hear her cheek being slapped. I have to say we`re in the business of watching disturbing videos. This was one of the more disturbing ones --

PINSKY: Lynn, I`ve got to tell you something. I have a couple reactions to it. It`s interesting and disturbing. A, now that everyone has a videophone, we are going to see videos like this, because this isn`t uncommon in our country, number one.

B, you can`t imagine how many times I take care of people when they go, no, no, everything was fine in my house. I didn`t have anything happened. Maybe something happened when I was little, I kind of remember something, but I can`t remember.

The littler you are, the more profound the effect, the less your brain can take all this. Not to mention the fact, Lynn, what you saw him shaking the baby`s head, that can lead to a shaken baby syndrome where the veins between the skull and the brain break loose and the baby bleeds to death into the brain.

So the whole thing is so disgusting to me. Lynn, give us more, what more did you learn about this story.

BERRY: Well, actually this video is taken by a friend of the couple`s. This friend actually noticed the abuse back in the summertime. And they went to social services without a video and social services -- well, this is lack of evidence, we can`t prove that there`s child abuse in the house.

So what does the friend do? They decide to record it with a device like, Dr. Drew, you were saying, we`re going to see more of this. Hopefully, we will. So these people can be put away.

But this friend showed it to another friend of theirs and the friend says you have to show police. Immediately, they contacted police. Immediately police took this baby out of this home. It`s just -- it makes you physically ill.

PINSKY: OK. I`ve got Mr. and Mrs. Defense attorney with me on the panel here. We`re going to start with Mark.

HUTT: I don`t know how you`re going to defend it.


PINSKY: Well, hold up. Give him a chance. I know you`re trying to defend them. Everyone is entitled to a defense. So, please, please, enlighten me.

EIGLARSH: I`m going to. First of all, in this case, and every abhorrent set of facts that I don`t necessarily sign off on the behavior. In fact, what this woman did by treating her kid like a sack of potatoes, in fact, I treat groceries with more care. It doesn`t mean necessarily I`m signing off on what they did.

I would go to the prosecutor, assuming my clients are amenable to treatment. They want to help themselves. They want to learn how to be better parents. Obviously, they missed any kind of education courses forces or any positive role models on how to treat a child.

PINSKY: Dean, do you agree?

OBEIDALLAH: I agree they have no education on how to raise a child. They might not be aware that every day, four to six children are killed by child abuse. I don`t think it`s by evil parents, frankly.

I think the idea that someone will take like shaking a baby that would stop them from crying, you shake me when I`m crying, I`m going to cry more. They don`t understand that it`s wrong.

SCHACHER: They lied about it, though.

OBEIDALLAH: It`s education.

PINSKY: Education --

OBEIDALLAH: Everyone lies when you`re confronted by the police.

PINSKY: I agree, and, Anahita, maybe not just education, but taking some aggressive action here and there.

We`ll get the message through. Is misdemeanor enough for these people?

SEDAGHATFAR: You`re going to be surprised, Dr. Drew. But from what I saw on that tape, and honestly I couldn`t watch the whole thing, that looked like felonious conduct here. But I think the big point to take away from this --


SEDAGHATFAR: Yes, not that they`re not entitled to a defense here. Of course, they are, the Constitution applies to everybody here. I`ve said this over and over, even people we hate, even disgusting people like this. But thank goodness, Dr. Drew, that someone was looking out for this child. Clearly, the parents weren`t.

PINSKY: Almost seizing there the way you`re shaking it.

SEDAGHATFAR: Yes. This woman probably saved this child`s life.

PINSKY: All right. And again, not uncommon in this country. That`s the thing I got --

SEDAGHATFAR: That`s disgusting.

PINSKY: It`s unbelievable, but that`s true. Thank you, panel.

Coming up, switching gears later in the show, we`re going to talk about football fans that -- well, these are adults again, ladies and gentlemen and that`s a man striking a woman.

And reminder, for a behind the scenes look at our show, pictures and video, you can head over to We are trying to document what goes on here and give you a little project green light look into how the show works when we`re not specifically on there. That`s Sam with her go-go juice, Sam? Is that what you call that on?

SCHACHER: I like calling it go-go juice. I say it`s my Superman`s cape or my Popeye spinach, but --

PINSKY: We`ll see about that. Back in a moment.


PINSKY: Sam, I`ve got a tweet from none other than the great Danine Manette. It says "11 years from now when the baby bullies another kid to the point of suicide, everyone is going to say the parents should have no liability." There`s Danine mixing it up, stirring it up at a distance. She dropped her bomb in here --

SCHACHER: From her couch.

PINSKY: But it`s an interesting point, isn`t it?

SCHACHER: It is. Yes. It`s a very interesting point. But that`s what we were talking about earlier, how do you then put the accountability on the person that was abused?

PINSKY: Well, I think we start holding accountability on all fronts and we start having more significant consequence and we get better at documenting and calling this stuff and talking about it like we`re doing now. In fact, let`s bring in the "Behavior Bureau," Casey Jordan, Jillian Barberie, Wendy Walsh, and Jennifer Keitt, talking about the video of a one-year-old crying baby being slapped and yanked.

And by the way, that yank that the boyfriend did where he pulls the arm up, that`s a great way to give a fracture or dislocation of the elbow. I want to play you the report. This is video from affiliate state KUSA. Again, caution, it is violent and it is disturbing. Take a look.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A child looking for attention, clearly the parents were annoyed, so they used force, thinking that will solve the problem.



PINSKY: I also want to show the rest of the video. There it is where the boyfriend picks look, that`s how you dislocate a shoulder, break an elbow. The mom and boyfriend both under 25 years of age, have been charged with child abuse. Their defenders did not return our phone calls. Jillian, you first.

JILLIAN BARBERIE, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, you know what, Dr. Drew, they`re 25 years of age or under. A 12-year-old wouldn`t go up to a baby and smack them across the face. I mean, it`s just simple, you know, decency and human behavior and treating each other kindly. And this is their own flesh and blood.

PINSKY: Well, you`re a mom.

BARBERIE: Come on.

PINSKY: As a mom, does it violate some visceral sensibility?

BARBERIE: Yes, but Drew, I wanted to jump through and punch the woman in the face and the man and that`s not very lady-like. I realize that --

PINSKY: -- generational transmission of trauma, just so we`re clear about it.

BARBERIE: I also want to ask you, the child service, Department of Child Services, they were told by this friend, there`s issues going on, she had seen some things over the summer. That wasn`t enough for them to go and investigate? I have an issue with them now. They needed a tape? I mean, does everything have to be caught on tape in order for us to believe it?

PINSKY: That`s interesting. Casey, I`ll let you comment on that.

CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Yes. Basically pretty much, because people do have rights. And you can accuse it, but you cannot prove anything. The bottom line is with this is that I don`t think it`s just a drop in the bucket. I think it`s a drop in the ocean. I think it happens all the time.

PINSKY: I agree.

JORDAN: And it`s really sad that it took a friend who had the nerve to videotape the abuse from the sofa and go back and show it to the police to get any kind of investigation going, but it shows that without that kind of proof, eyewitness proof isn`t enough. Video is the way it`s going to be proved in the future.

BARBERIE: What did they do back in the 1960s when we didn`t have-- no one was a photographer. We didn`t have cell phones with cameras on them? Why can`t social services just do unannounced visits? I know when I was adopted --

PINSKY: We don`t have the manpower for that -- finish your story.

BARBERIE: Well, my parents before they were actually physically able to adopt me, they had social services which show up at all times of the day and night unannounced. And they would investigate the house. They would come in. They would see if the baby was sleeping if, you know, there were any parties going on.

PINSKY: It`s easy to get it together for a certain period of time. Jennifer, your comment on this?

JENNIFER KEITT, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: You know, old-school parenting, the bottom line was my grandma, my mom, smacking around kids has been going on forever. My recommendation, though, is that we start exactly at the moment of birth, mandatory parenting classes before we even take those babies out of a hospital.

Here`s the bottom line, how stupid is it to have a baby -- you have to have a car seat to put the baby in, but you don`t even know how to take care of the baby, how to pick up the baby, how to deal with the stress of having the baby come home overnight? Mandatory parenting classes in the hospital before mom and dad --


BARBERIE: I totally disagree. I totally disagree in the sense -- it should be obvious how to treat a baby.


KEITT: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I had four babies. My first baby, I came home at 23 years old, 24 years old, I was married, I had done everything right, but I didn`t know what the heck to do. Not at all. Not a book was there. My mom wasn`t there.


PINSKY: But you know what, a lot of people do. The shaking baby syndrome has seen in the emergency room throughout this country --


BARBERIE: You think getting them a booklet or pamphlet that says not to shake a baby is really going to change these people obviously --


PINSKY: Speaking of class, Wendy, you`re going to have a chance to speak. I saw you have an interesting reaction what Jennifer said. You went like -- it was like, I`d sure like to do that, but it`s such an overwhelming situation.

WENDY WALSH, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGIST: It is, but let me tell you this. We enforce people to take a driver`s ED class and pass a test before they get behind the wheel of a care, so why don`t we just say, you know, you`ve got to have this parenting class or we`re not going to deliver your baby. Of course, that will make them deliver in the woods, but that`s a whole another thing.

But the other thing I want to say is this, Dr. Drew, did you hear the TV reporter, when he was introducing the segments say, the baby was crying for attention? Babies don`t cry just for attention. Well, they do, but it`s because they deserve attention, because they have a need. They`re not just crying to try to fake something.

PINSKY: And Casey, you`re the one with legal training in this group. But people are supposed to have their rights to be free to be parents. Whatever. Why can`t we seem to get that together in this country?

JORDAN: Things have changed. Times have changed. What used to work does not work. It`s not the -- we don`t live in extended families where mothers can teach their daughters how to raise children anymore.


JORDAN: Beyond that, not every woman is born with the so-called maternal instinct. It`s a myth that all women bond with their babies.

KEITT: I wasn`t.

BARBERIE: And if she was abused, she`s going to have a hard time.

PINSKY: There you go. Now, Wendy --


PINSKY: I`ll let you finish, Casey, but that`s the issue. We have so much of that abuse in families that I bet these kids, these two parents, they have got problems with their attachment to the child, so they don`t have any other way, except by this weird, bizarre mirroring of the baby`s crying. Casey, finish up.

JORDAN: Well, we don`t know who`s going to bond and who`s going to be a good mom when the baby is in utero. The answer is I agree 100 percent. Parenting classes before that baby is born. It`s mandatory. And people who are going to be great parents won`t mind. And the people who are going to be troubled parents might actually learn something. If you need a license to cut hair, to have a dog, to drive a car --


BARBERIE: -- doesn`t make you a good haircut --


BARBERIE: It can help, but the bottom line is if I`m coming from abuse, I`m going to treat my child the exact opposite about because I know what I endured, so I`m going to give them the love --

PINSKY: It doesn`t work like that, though.


PINSKY: It can work like that, but Wendy and I know we`re dealing with that all the time. The fact is, as Danine pointed out, you`re going to see these children grow up to be bullies or they`re going to come to see me when they start using substances later on to regulate their emotions because they weren`t properly parented.

If anyone out there has a question for the "Behavior Bureau," you can tweet us at DrDrewHLN #Behavior Bureau.

Up next, we have a woman accused of raping a 15-year-old and that 15-year-old happened to be her daughter`s ex-boyfriend. Parents tonight -- it`s parents night.


PINSKY: Let`s not blame women. Let`s be careful. But it is parents night.

SCHACHER: Tonight, it`s all the women, it seems.

PINSKY: Back after this.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s your response to the allegations that you raped that teenage boy?

PINSKY (voice-over): That running hooded woman is in fact a 36- year-old mom. The 15-year-old boy she is accused of raping is her daughter`s ex-boyfriend. Agalia Cloud, an aspiring actress and singer, reportedly wooed the boy by offering to help in his dancing career.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She made mention of knowing somebody who would be considered a talent scout.

PINSKY: But detectives allege she was scouting the boy for sex. And they say they have an X-rated video of the mom and the boy at a local hotel.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ms. Cloud, this is your last chance to talk to us. Why don`t you stop and talk to us.


PINSKY (on-camera): Back with my co-host, Samantha Schacher. Lynn, Jilliane, Wendy join us. Lynn, can you give us the latest?

LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST: Well, so basically, the only reason this came to be is because mother of the 15-year-old boy got suspicious when he broke up with his girlfriend but kept going over to the house. She confronted the boy. The boy said I didn`t really want to do this. She just said that she was going to help me with his dance career at 15.

PINSKY: What`s with the tape? The police actually have a videotape?

BERRY: Yes. The police have it, they say. They have a videotape of this sexcapade going down in a motel and also some audio recordings. This 15-year-old boy worked with police to get her to confess on these records. So, it seems like they have a pretty tight case. Four counts of third-degree rape, child rape.

Here`s the kicker. She was released without bail. She lives in a different state. So, she`s going to fly back in December for the trial? But I challenge any of you to say, is there a 36-year-old male and a 15- year-old girl that we would not be saying how in the world was he released?

PINSKY: And let`s be clear. Although we can chuckle about these sorts of situations and lots of adult males do, the impact on young males, the outcome where these young males end up, disastrous for them, when their teachers, when the people they trust, when friends` moms do this to underage children whose brains aren`t fully developed. Jillian, you have a reaction.

BARBERIE: Well, you know, Drew, I would say to those men that would be chuckling about it, picture your 15-year-old daughter being raped by a 36-year-old man and it`s not as funny anymore.


BARBERIE: I don`t know why there is a double standard, but we were even talking in the greenroom here earlier and one of the panel had said, oh, yes, that story, it`s funny, and we were like -- funny? It`s not funny. It`s not because it is, you know, it`s a sex crime. We assume because it`s a boy, it`s teenage boy that they`re all horny, and yey, we got a free woman. We got a 36-year-old meal (ph) up on our hands, but it`s a crime.

PINSKY: It`s a crime for a reason. Sam.

SCHACHER: Well, Dr. Drew, let`s talk about the fact, too, that she seduced and manipulated him by using his career aspirations and his goals by dangling that like a carrot in front of him and almost like running like her own little casting couch. That really is disgusting.

PINSKY: Wendy, I know you got the most -- you have the most serious look on your face. We see these kids later with all kinds of body image issue, sociopathy, acting out behavior, externalizing behaviors, we call it, right?

WALSH: Rape of a boy is not talked about enough in our culture, because we live -- and you and I have talked about this before, this high supply sexual economy that has a very narrow definition of male and female sexuality and that is guys are supposed to want any sex, all sex at any cost. Where does that leave 95 percent of the guys who have feelings and actually want a relationship and can easily be coerced --

BARBERIE: Wait, 95 percent of men have feelings? What, Wendy?


PINSKY: Well, Jillian, I`ll explain that to you after the break.

WALSH: The other five do, too, but they`re considered Casanovas.

PINSKY: I`m still amused about the high supply sexual economy. I want to hear more about that. True, but I`ve got to take a break. The panel stays with me.

And later, after the panel finishes discussing this story, we have another crazy story where one football fan punches another in the face, but he`s a male, she`s a female. Back after this.


PINSKY: Back with Samantha Schacher, Lynn, Jillian and Wendy. And Sam, I want to share a tweet with you all. You struck a chord tonight. This is from @ForeverKadisha, "All parents should watch Dr. Drew tonight, great topics and discussion." I`m also going to read one. I don`t want to show this one necessarily -- oops, I`m not going to -- let`s put that back.

I`m going to read that one to you, because she says some pretty intense things there that I don`t necessarily know that she wants read on television, but she talks about having been -- watched her father choke he mom, and being beaten herself, and yet, she never laid a hand on children. So, it does bring out the issue just because you`ve been abused, you don`t have to become abuser.

BARBERIE: I was thinking about the mother who was caught on tape, the mother of the 14-year-old girl who, you know, was out there bullying. Who`s to say that all of the rest of her children aren`t good kids? That see this horrific violence, and we`re like, oh my goodness, we can`t assume that they`re all going to be like her because the apple doesn`t fall far from the tree.

PINSKY: Right. And then, now, we`ve been discussing this 36-year- old mom who`s accused of child rape. She allegedly had sex with the daughter`s 15-year-old ex-boyfriend. Police say they recorded the encounter. Wendy, why the videotapes?

WALSH: Well, you know, Dr. Drew, we live in a culture where there are rumors swirling that Kim Kardashian`s mother made her sex tape for her and released it. Now, young people thinking if they can release a sex tape, it will make them a star. Who knows what she told this young boy as she was coercing him talking about his sing and dancing career?

PINSKY: Yes. I think there are so many stories like this where the young males are sexually abused. And I have a number of people I can bring on to this program who are adult males who are still having effects of doing something they thought that was cool when they were 13, 14, or 15. Lynn, are they going to reveal this tape?

BERRY: In the trial. I mean, I think that that`s definitely -- yes. That`s definitely going to be a huge piece of evidence, because it basically shows her face, according to police. I mean, that`s going to be their biggest piece of evidence, but also, this audio recording where she apparently confesses to having a sexual encounter.

But have we not seen time and time again that there are cases like this where there has been a reduced sentence? And there has to be a message sent that you guys have brought it up, and Jillian, you put it perfectly that there are so many young males. I was looking at the comments section on your Facebook page whereas like, yes, that girl can rape me any day of the week.


BERRY: Yes. These mentality that these young men are like, oh, she`s a milk (ph). That`s right.


PINSKY: -- for me because it`s not OK.

BARBERIE: I would love to interview her daughter as well. I mean, I want to know what that relationship is at home right now. Here`s the mother that has slept with your ex-boyfriend. I mean, that`s a whole other, you know --

PINSKY: Can`t be good. Thank you, panel. "Last Call" is next.


PINSKY: It`s time for the "Last Call." Sam, we`ve got a couple things for you. First is a tweet from @PCORG. It says "@DrDrew, such a double standard that cannot be tolerated. Adult woman, 15-year-old boy is as much rape as adult man, 15-year-old girl. " It`s not the same but has pernicious effects on these young males.

SCHACHER: Right. I agree with Bill.

PINSKY: Yes. All right. Now, I want you, Sam, to take a look and all of you at this video from yesterday. A man who appears to be a New York Jets fan punches a woman wearing a New England Patriots jersey in the face. Look. Oh, my God! They say it was a culmination of a confrontation that started in the stands during the Jets` victory over the Patriots Sunday. She had pushed the man, apparently. He responded with this, with assault.


PINSKY: Let`s see where this goes. Really, this is OK? That`s the world we live in. New Jersey state police are investigating presently. Sam, come on.

SCHACHER: Well, yes, what a jerk, what a coward. And according to the police report, he was belligerent. So, perhaps --

PINSKY: -- were both intoxicated? You see crazy behavior like that, I just think substance, alcohol`s got to be involved.

SCHACHER: Right. He was intoxicated. I`m not sure if she was, perhaps she was. But I feel like it just boils down to -- we`ve lost some sort of decency and respect. Why can`t we just respect one another despite what team you root for or political affiliation?

PINSKY: Great point. We`ve got to leave it at that because "HLN After Dark" begins right now.