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Roma Couple Charges with Kidnapping; Accused Bully`s Mother Charged with Child Abuse

Aired October 21, 2013 - 19:00:00   ET


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Breaking news tonight as the entire world wonders, who is this beautiful mystery girl found in Greece? Authorities have charged a couple with abducting the child they call Maria.

Now, the 4- to 5-year-old girl was found during a raid on a community of so-called Romas, otherwise known as gypsies. And that is why this story is very controversial for reasons you may not suspect. But I`m going to tell you all about it in just a second.

Now, police were looking for guns. They were looking for drugs, and they basically stumbled on this little girl who peeked out from under some bed clothes. The couple that she was living with, they claim -- look at her. They showed this video saying, "Look, she`s well cared for. She`s loved like a member of the family. We adopted her from a woman who just couldn`t take care of her."

Well, the cops are saying, "So what if she`s dancing? We don`t buy it." They said the child seemed neglected and was lacking hygiene. Who is Maria and where did she...


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s known only as Maria.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Facing charges of abduction of a minor and also of falsifying documents.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This Roma family had 14 children in total.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who are her parents and why was she found living in a gypsy campsite?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was bad living conditions, poor hygiene. I saw the girl was lying under -- in a state of neglect.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would hope that something like this would give the McCanns enough hope and encouragement that they renew their strength for the fight.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The little girl at the center of an international mystery.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And tonight, people are saying, "Wow, this child looks so much like little Maddie McCann, who vanished from her British parents` hotel room while the family was vacationing in Portugal several years ago. Look at them. They could be sisters. Could there be some kind of connection here? I mean, could this be some kind of ring? That`s what authorities are investigating.

As far as little Maria goes, DNA testing confirms these are not her biological parents. In fact, they repeatedly changed their story about how they got this child. Cops found suspicious birth and baptism records and registrations that claim this woman you`re seeing there, who`s mother to ten kids, all born around the same time. That`s biologically not possible. And the father -- well, he`s the father of four more.

So how many Marias could there be out there?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They are currently investigating this scenario since this family, this Roma family had 14 children in total. And they were registered with fake birth certificates, so now the police are trying to see whether these children also belonged to this family or is there something else behind this.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, the couple admits they did not adopt this little girl legally, but they insist she`s part of their family.

What do you make of this mystery? Could there be a ring bringing pregnant women to Greece and then taking their kids for sale? That`s what authorities are investigating. Call me: 1-877-JVM-SAYS. Do you there`s a connection to Madeleine McCann? 1-877-586-7297.

Straight out to Jon Leiberman, HLN contributor/investigator. This child could be from anywhere. What do you know about questions as to whether Maria could be from the United States originally?

JON LEIBERMAN, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, that`s something that Interpol is looking into. I have confirmed with Interpol, which is the worldwide law enforcement agency, that right now they`ve received the file of this little girl, including a DNA sample, and all of those allegedly forged documents, as well. And what Interpol is doing is reaching out across the world to all of the member police departments of Interpol. And there are hundreds of them trying to figure out who the biological parents are.

Now, I`ll tell you, Jane, it`s so much different, because normally we`re sitting here, and we`re talking about looking for missing children. In this case, we`re talking about looking for the biological parents of this child.

And I want to tell you this, Jane. The reason why police became so suspicious was not just how this little girl looked, but the moment they started questioning these parents, they got different stories from each parent. They separated the parent. One of the parents said, "Oh, we found her outside of a supermarket." That was the first story. And then their stories kept changing.

So this wasn`t a matter that they just yanked this little girl out because she looked different than the parents, though that was one thing that raised their antenna in the beginning. But eventually, they found all these conflicting stories...


LEIBERMAN: ... and they knew this little girl did not belong to these parents.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. A lawyer for the couple says they`re now searching for the alleged biological mother to prove that Maria was, indeed, adopted. Albeit, not legally.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our clients` claim is that we never abduct this child. We just adopted within a way that`s non-legal. That`s what we can confess.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Take a look at this video of Maria, dancing with the so-called mother. This was given to the media in an attempt to show the little girl was cared for.

Marc Klaas, president and founder of the Klaas Kids Foundation, a man who knows more about finding missing children than anyone in the world. Here`s what concerns me. These -- these claims that, oh, they had ten children -- ten by the woman, four more by the father -- and these birth and baptism records which show that she would have had to have them all in a very strange way. You know, ten kids within a time that`s not biologically possible. So, that points to criminality right there.

And then we`re hearing these reports that they`re investigating -- there`s a ring bringing pregnant women to Greece from Bulgaria and then taking their children for sale.

MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Yes, that`s absolutely right, Jane. And in Greece, there is no central birth certificate repository. And in fact, what they`ve been doing is going to different areas of Greece and registering children with fake birth certificates to the point that they have 14 children, most of whom can`t even be truly identified at this point.

So there`s no question that these people are involved in welfare fraud, as we would call it in this country. And there`s also no question that they`re absolutely hiding something or they would have been much more forthcoming about who this little girl and where she is.

And it is an interesting mystery that they now have the missing child, and they have to trace that child back to who she actually is. We don`t know that that`s ever going to be able to happen. But we do hope that wherever this little girl lands, it`s going to be in a family that doesn`t keep her in squalor and that loves her and gives her opportunities.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s go out to the phone lines. Christine, North Carolina, what do you have to say -- Christine.

CALLER: Hey, Jane, how are you?


CALLER: I just wanted to say, you know, gypsies, they do a lot of traveling. They do a lot of things secretive. They`ll go out and do jobs for people, rip them off. But she looks American to me, very American. And...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, Christine, you call often, and I respect you and I love you. But I think that this raises a question of, I would say, stereotyping.

Let`s ask, what are gypsies? How do you define a person and categorize them with this word?

Well, "The New York Times" says there are about 11 million Roma people, also called gypsies, throughout Europe. Now, a human rights organization believes that something like 170,000 to 200,000 of these Roma or gypsies live in Greece. And historically, these are people who came from India to Europe centuries ago, and they have been persecuted since then. There are a lot of old prejudices about gypsies stealing children, forcing them to work.

I want to go to Lisa Bloom. In the Lion`s Den, Lisa. While we have to investigate this case, while we want to investigate this case, it doesn`t necessarily mean that we can just open -- throw open the doors and start stereotyping people based on their ethnicity, based on their background. Because the one thing I know about people is you can`t -- you can`t predict what they`re going to do based on their skin color and what their ethnic or racial background is. That`s dirty pool.

LISA BLOOM, LEGAL ANALYST: I`m so glad that you`re bringing that up, Jane. Because when I saw this story this morning, the first thing I thought of was of all the children in the world here`s a little, pretty white girl who was found in the care of darker skinned people, who are under suspicion throughout a lot of Europe for unfair reasons. You know, why this story? Why is this story grabbing the news?

A lot of children don`t look like their parents. My children, who are Chinese-American, people often tell me don`t look like me. They are, in fact, my biological children.

I don`t know if this little girl was adopted informally, whether the parents gave her up without any legal papers. That happens all over the world. I don`t know if they`re involved in some kind of a ring. Certainly the facts look suspicious for them right now. But we have to be careful about jumping to conclusions, especially against people who have been historically oppressed.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you join my rant. I am thrilled this little girl was discovered peeking out from under the bed clothes. Thrilled. I love it. The entire situation suggested authorities be on the lookout for anything suspicious, because it was a drug raid. It was a weapons raid.

The news reports headline, "Blond, blue-eyed girl found in gypsy encampment." Authorities said the blond child looked nothing like the man and woman and DNA tested they were not the biological parents. It was confirmed.

But I have to say this. In different circumstances, that would be an outrageous assumption and offensive. Namely that a blond child is not part of a family because she looks different than her darker skinned parents.

As Lisa just said, we live in a melting pot world where people of different ethnic and racial backgrounds have children together, where people adopt children of different races and ethnicities of their own. So while this turned out to be very good detective work, in this particular case, we also have to be very careful about jumping to conclusions and of painting any group with a broad brush.

Let`s go out to the phone lines. Cheryl, Texas.

CALLER: Hi, Jane.


CALLER: Listen, I`ve been watching you forever and I love you.


CALLER: But did you notice when they are filming the little girl dancing around, did you notice a little boy that walked past, and that woman jerked his arm like he was a rag doll to get him out of the way?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m seeing the boy right there. Oh, you are so right. That was a good catch, Cheryl, Texas.

Marc Klaas, president, founder of Klaas Kids Foundation, what does that tell you?

KLAAS: Well, it tells you that there`s abuse going on in that family.

But I`d like to address what you were just talking about a minute ago. The reason that they focused on this little girl on this raid, obviously, the things that Jonathan was talking about, obviously the fact that she does look totally different from those other people, but also a couple of weeks ago, a dialogue on human trafficking was started in this world when the Madeleine McCann case was reinvestigated, when that was reopened. People started talking about that. They started talking about trafficking. They started talking about gypsy rings of traffickers.

And then this prosecutor goes into this encampment and, lo and behold, there`s perhaps truth of what everybody has been talking about anyway.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And on the other side of the break, we are going to compare these two cases. Is there a connection to missing Maddie McCann? Stay right there.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigators were carrying out a routine inspection of a Roma encampment near the Greek town of Larissa. Noticed the little girl. Her blond hair and blue eyes were striking. She looked nothing like the couple claiming to be her parents. DNA tests later confirmed the investigators` suspicions.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When Maria`s story broke, it reminded many of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann in Portugal six years ago. No trace of her has ever been found.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hope that something like this would give the McCanns enough hope and encouragement that they renew their strength for the fight.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: When little Maria was suddenly discovered, it reminded many, this case, of the disappearance of little Maddie McCann. Remember, she vanished from her family`s hotel room in Portugal six long years ago. Look how similar these children are.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hope that something like this would give the McCanns enough hope and encouragement that they renew their strength for the fight.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now just last week, we told you about a major breakthrough in the case of little Maddie. Police revealed the then 3- year-old`s disappearance appeared to be a pre -- preplanned abduction and that they may have even gotten the name of a possible suspect, even though they did not release that name.

Investigators have released these new age progression photos of Maddie. Look at her. What a beautiful girl. And sketches of a possible suspect, a man who witnesses describe seeing the night Maddie disappeared.

If Maddie was trafficked, the same question could be coming up right now with Maria.

Back to the Lion`s Den, though. I`ve got to go back to Marc Klaas for a second. If you look at the picture of the suspect in the composite sketch that they are looking for in connection with little Maddie McCann, this new suspect, looks nothing like these gypsies, these Romas. The guy looks like an eastern European or a Brit.

KLAAS: Yes, that`s absolutely correct, Jane. But then again, these could be very -- if they are rings of human traffickers, they could be very large rings.

You know, the prosecutor -- I`m sorry, one of the police chiefs in Greece said that there are dozens of documented cases of trafficking of young Bulgarian girls through Greece into the open market for people that want to adopt these types of girls.

So I think until we have more information and find out if he can actually verify what he was saying, that we have to, I guess, be careful to go too far into this, but there could easily be rings of individuals that are doing these kinds of things.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Kathy, Washington, what do you have to say? Kathy, Washington.

CALLER: Yes. You know, hi, Jane.


CALLER: I just want to say that ever since I saw that little girl`s picture the very first time, you know, I`ve got grandkids. There is no light in her eyes. There is something terribly wrong. She is -- there is something -- there`s just no light in there. She looks haunted. You know, I wouldn`t doubt it if her parents were killed. I don`t know. She hasn`t been reported missing.

But I do believe with all my heart that she is in some kind of a pedophile ring. I really do.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Lisa Bloom, legal analyst for, people have been tweeting and going on Facebook telling us her hair seems to be dyed different colors during different photographs and the video, as if maybe they were trying to hide her identity. See those braids? And then she`s got the dark hair. What`s the significance of that?

BLOOM: Look, we just don`t know. And we have to be careful about jumping to conclusions. It`s very common for parents who love their children to dye their hair fun, bright colors. Right? I mean, who knows what was going on here?

I think we should be careful about accusing people of being pedophiles when there`s absolutely no evidence of that at this point. There`s no evidence that they`re involved with a ring. I mean, we just have to be careful about jumping to conclusions.

And you know, so many girls in the world who are black or brown are trafficked, and we don`t cover those stories.


BLOOM: And that`s the sad thing to me. The whole world...

LEIBERMAN: Yes, but...

BLOOM: ... is focusing on this story.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But, Jon, when I see her yanking that boy, that -- of all the things -- is the scariest thing when she yanks that boy.

LEIBERMAN: Well, and that`s the thing here, Jane, with all due respect. I listened to your rant. And one thing that we need to point out is police did the right thing here. They observed, and then they investigated. They didn`t just pluck this girl out because she looked different. They saw that something was wrong, and they started asking questions. And they weren`t getting the answers to the questions that they wanted.

To go along with what Marc Klaas said, as well, law enforcement is looking at the possibility, of course, that this is a sex-trafficking ring. But there`s another big problem in this group, too. And that is what is akin to welfare fraud here in the United States, which is that families hoard large numbers of kid to get large government checks every month.

So this family, for example, gets close to $4,000 a month from the government, from all sorts of different jurisdictions, because they have 14 kids. So that`s another kind of fraud.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And let me tell you, those kids are not accounted for. So I want to find all of those kids. Where are those kids? Do they really exist? Because they weren`t all born in the same four-month period by the same woman. That`s for sure.

So we`re going to stay on top of this story. Very disturbing. Raises so many, so many disturbing questions.

On the other side, a teenager -- this is just as disturbing in a slightly different way. A teen accused of bullying a classmate to death. Now you won`t believe the accusations involving the alleged bully`s mom.






UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is your daughter a bully? Do you think she bullied this girl, Rebecca?

VOSBURG: She never once, you know, bullied this girl online.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The apple doesn`t fall far from the tree.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now mom is in jail because of this.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now video uncovers the mom`s secret.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The video was deemed child abuse and neglect.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m sure you`re going to agree with me. This is outrageous.

New video shows the stepmother of an accused 14-year-old bully allegedly viciously beating and cursing at her own children. No wonder her daughter was in trouble for bullying. Was this kind of behavior the family`s toxic secret?

Fourteen-year-old Guadalupe and 12-year-old Caitlyn were arrested for allegedly tormenting their classmate, Rebecca Sedwick, until she killed herself. This child`s alleged violence took the form of cyber bullying. But I definitely think that she was repeating and acting out what her stepmom seems to be doing inside her home.

In this horrific beating posted on Facebook, you can see the mom, Vivian Vosburg, aggressively punching and cursing at one of her own children. I`ve got to warn you: It`s disturbing, but it`s must-see video.


VOSBURG: I will beat your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) (EXPLETIVE DELETED). What the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) is wrong with you?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. Listen, we all know -- what was that old saying? Do what I say, not what I do? Parents say that because kids almost always imitate their parents` actions, as opposed to following their words.

Cops say these two teens used Facebook to harass and torment this beautiful girl, Rebecca Sedwick, for more than a year. Rebecca decided, well, she can`t take it anymore and jumped to her death from the top of an abandoned building just last month.

The mom of the accused bully is now charged with child abuse and neglect herself. There she is. And this is the very same mom who went on national TV after her daughter was arrested, insisting her Facebook had to have been hacked, because her daughter would never, ever, ever be a bully.


VOSBURG: She never once bullied this girl online. I don`t think it`s fair for me and my husband to be punished for something that they`re saying that my daughter did, and my daughter`s being punished for something that she didn`t do.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow! This is a really sad reminder that kids will act out their parents` secrets. Their parents are violent, they`re going to -- they`re going to imitate it. They`re going to act it out in one way, shape or form or another.

This is a warning to all of you parents out there. Any time your kid is caught doing something, take a look in the mirror. Ouch!

Straight out to Jon Leiberman. You know, kids don`t come out of the womb evil. There`s always something going on at home. This is why I think parents are increasingly being held accountable for the actions of their kids.

LEIBERMAN: Well, this is exactly why. And Jane, this is an extreme example. I mean, this video makes you cringe. As a parent, I absolutely cringe. Because I can never imagine, you know, being in that household. That`s No. 1.

The second thing is, though this case of the allegations of abuse there with the mother isn`t directly related to the cyber bullying case, it could actually work in the 14-year-old`s favor down the road as a mitigating factor.


LEIBERMAN: If this is what that 14-year-old`s home life was like, oh, my goodness. I mean, it just -- it breaks your heart. There are no winners in this story. I mean, this is absolutely heartbreaking.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, and I`ve got to say that I`m glad this was caught on tape. Because you wouldn`t believe it if you didn`t see it on tape.

I think we`ve got Robin. What do you have to say, Robin?



CALLER: I`m an advocate of foster care and was involved in the Hassani Campbell case which Marc Klaas is very familiar with on Nancy Grace. And it`s continuing, the failure of social services to help these children. Because they basically just farm them out, and they just don`t -- they don`t, in any way, visit the homes or take care of these children. And it`s resulted in the death of Zahra Baker in in North Carolina, which I`ve dealt with. And Erica Parsons...


CALLER: ... is still missing. And the parents and stepparents are doing it constantly. Social services and the schools are just not interested, and they don`t have the resources.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Listen, Robin, I think you`re raising some good points, but this is a stepmom. This child, to my understanding, was not in foster care. She was in her home with her stepmom. You know, and this is the kind of behavior cops say she was picking up on. And I think there`s a direct connection between that and what the child did.

So, I agree with Jon Leiberman that this could be something that she could bring up during her own case, her own trial to say, "Hey, look, give me a break." I don`t think it exonerates her. But I do think it`s a mitigating factor.

All right. Coming up, a woman vanishes for two months before suddenly turning up dead. Beautiful young woman. Can newly-released surveillance video break this mystery wide open? I`m going to talk to the victim`s devastated mother, who is so hungry for answers, next.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You see two figures exit the location, and it looks as though she is being led away from her home.

You see that the subject who entered the home has hold of her left arm by the elbow.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, a horrific mystery on the beach -- a possible break in the case of a beautiful woman who vanished just days before Christmas. Two months later, her body bound at the wrists and ankles washes up on a New York beach. Her heartbroken, devastated mother is my very special guest tonight. We`re going to talk to her in just a second.

Now we also have this, newly-released surveillance footage of the victim being led away by an unidentified woman the very day she disappeared. Could this video unlock the secrets of this mystery?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is it possible she was thrown in the water alive?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s absolutely possible. With her wrists bound behind her back and her ankles were tied at her feet.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Missing from Queens for two months.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two figures exit the location and it looks as though Marisha is being led away from her home.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The body of a young woman had washed up that morning on the shoreline in Breezy Point, Queens.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You see that the subject who entered the home has hold of her left arm by the elbow.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Told Marisha`s mom that she texted him on December 19. She was leaving him for someone else.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything in my life is turned to finding who did this. I mean I`m going to find who did this.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can`t mourn my daughter. You didn`t look for her.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Marisa Cheong vanished December 19th last year, 2012. She had been living with her boyfriend in Queens, New York. He says oh, she left to go shopping and that Marisha later sent him a text saying she was leaving him. But does his story add up?

Police say there are no suspects at all. They also said this grainy surveillance video shows Marisha and an unidentified woman. They`re leaving the home where her boyfriend`s family lives. As Marisha turns back to close the gate, the woman grabs her by the elbow and leads her away.

Who is this woman? Was she leading Marisha to her death?

We want to go straight out to the victim`s mother, Bibi Ali (ph). Thank you so much for joining me. And first of all, my condolences -- I cannot imagine what the last ten months have been like for you and your family.

BIBI ALI, MOTHER OF MARISHA CHEONG: Really devastated. Thank you.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: My heart goes out to you, ma`am. This footage here of your daughter being found here by the beach, it`s heartbreaking. But here is my question, why did it take so long for police to release this surveillance video? It`s from the day your daughter disappeared. That was almost a year ago. Why are we just seeing it now? I find that somewhat outrageous, ma`am.

ALI: It is -- it is, because they really don`t know what exactly happened. That`s what they told me. So I`ve been waiting and waiting on them for the investigation and then suddenly I got a call and they tell me they`re going to release it about two or three weeks ago. So that`s how I get to find out.

But instead we`ve been waiting so long and still no arrest or anything.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I don`t get it. I mean I know that police have their ways and investigators have their ways. But somebody could see this surveillance footage and call in that crucial tip police need. But they really needed it on the day she disappeared. Remember, it was two months later that her body washed up. She very well could have been alive for God only knows how long.

Let`s take another look at that surveillance video. I know it`s grainy, but it`s good information.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You see two figures exit the location and it looks as though Marisha is being led away from her home. You see that the subject who entered the home has hold of her left arm by the elbow.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now on the right in the dark shirt is the unidentified woman. On the left in the light shirt is Marisha. According to authorities, this video is from outside the boyfriend`s family`s home.

I have to get to C.W. Jensen, retired police captain. It stands to reason that the woman is believed to be a friend or relative of the boyfriend.

C.W. JENSEN, RETIRED POLICE CAPTAIN: You know Jane, I thought the same thing. Here is the interesting deal. You`ve got a 24-year-old woman who is the victim -- tragically. And so it just doesn`t make sense that a 24-year-old adult wouldn`t be fighting back if it was a stranger that didn`t have some powerful hold on her to make her go with her. This isn`t a four -year-old child.

And so first thing I said was these people know each other and this unidentified woman -- and I really feel confident she`ll be identified by someone that sees this video -- had something that drew the victim to go with her. Otherwise, she would have fought.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I have no idea why they didn`t release this the day after. I really don`t. It`s outrageous to me. It`s also outrageous that the video is so grainy. I don`t care. We spend money on so many government programs. I don`t care what it costs. Put some good video in every single camera and add more cameras. We would solve crimes like that.

You want to talk about spending millions of dollars in the criminal justice system? Spend a little bit of money and sharpen up this video and we could do that coast to coast, every video camera on the streets, car washes, businesses, apartment complexes, elevators. It would certainly be a lot cheaper because a human life is priceless, first of all. And, secondly, it always costs a lot of money to prosecute people who committed crimes and fewer people would commit crimes. Ok?

Let`s go out to the phone lines. Susan, Florida, your question or thought -- Susan.

SUSAN, FLORIDA (via telephone): Well, thank you. This is the first time I`ve called. And I love your show. I want to say this. One, my heart goes out to this poor family. My daughter went missing when she was 15. Thank God I found her safely, but it was the longest nine days of my life.


SUSAN: But for them to take so long to even find this video. I mean everybody knows there`s videos all over the place being taken. So, why did it take them so long to come out with this video, you know?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s an excellent point. And Lisa Bloom, legal analyst -- I have to throw it to you. This is a refrain every time we cover one of those so-called cold cases. It`s the same thing. It`s like, what? Oh, look at this.

LISA BLOOM, LEGAL ANALYST AVO.COM: I agree. And Jane, you know, that video is very significant to me because it`s a woman leading her away. Usually when someone is abducted it`s a male perpetrator. Not always but usually. Who is this woman? Let`s identify her.

And if someone`s taking me out of my house and I go to shut the gate and they yank me away, obviously this is a wrongdoer. This isn`t a friend. This isn`t a family member. This isn`t just some innocent person who`s holding her hand. This is somebody who is a link to her murderer. This is a person who has to be identified as soon as possible.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And Jon Leiberman, briefly, there were bits of information picked up by her cell phone, which was pinging. Tell us about that.

JON LEIBERMAN, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, yes. The cell phone was pinging in this area, which is a major clue for them as well. That`s why, Jane, they didn`t release this video earlier because police thought they had major leads in this case and they didn`t want to have to spook the woman on that video. That`s the major reason why they didn`t release this sooner.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I hope she`s spooked now. Spooked enough to come forward and tell what she knows. And Mrs. Ali, again, our condolences -- I think all our viewers share it, wishing you peace and answers and justice.

Glitches, glitches and more glitches -- that Obamacare Web site -- what a mess. And the president acknowledged it. Is it going to put Obamacare into a death spiral? What`s going on? We`ll tell you.


KATHLEEN SEBELIUS, U.S. SECRETARY OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES: I`ll be the first to tell you that the Web site launch was rockier than we would have liked.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: Here is why your "Crazy Vid of the Day". A woman believed to be sleepwalking walks right off -- walks right off the platform on to the tracks. She tells the cops she`d fallen asleep on the bench and may have sleep walked into the pit.

Look at it. Yes, I`m just sleep walking. Oh, my gosh, I wish I had a cup of -- we can goof around a little bit, because she wasn`t hurt. She got out of there. Boy, she could have easily died. The train could have come along. She could have electrocuted herself, anything. I wish there was a cure for sleepwalking.



SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R), MINORITY LEADER: Obamacare is, indeed, a train wreck.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: It`s been a fiasco.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This whole system is not ready for prime time.


MCCONNELL: I mean a visit to the Web site is kind of like a trip to the Department of Motor Vehicles.

OBAMA: The health insurance that`s being provided is good.

MCCAIN: Send Air Force One out to Silicon Valley, load it up with some smart people, bring them back to Washington and fix this problem. It`s ridiculous.

OBAMA: Nobody is madder than me about the fact that the Web site isn`t working as well as it should, which means it`s going to get fixed.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, my gosh. It`s a mess. It`s a total catastrophe. You know what I`m talking about. Obamacare -- the Affordable Care Act went into effect October 1st. So far about half a million people have filled out the applications. But millions more have had trouble with the Web site, the infamous

Listen, every reporter has gone on there and done their stand-up show on how you hit glitches, come back later when you try to sign up. People have found it virtually impossible to try to log on to this Web site and complete the application process.

The White House admits it`s a mess. Officials underestimated how many users would visit the site. But look, here is the bottom line. 15 percent of Americans are uninsured right now as we speak and these citizens have to enroll by December 15th if they want their coverage to begin on January 1st.

All uninsured Americans are required to enroll by the March deadline or they have to pay a penalty. But the bottom line is you can`t punish somebody for not signing up for something they can`t sign up for because it doesn`t work.

Has the damage already been done? Well, listen to a man I respect mightily.


DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: People who are sort of sitting on the fence in the first place may say, look, you know, I mean this was too cumbersome. I`m just not going to do it this year and pay the penalty instead. And if that loss of confidence happens especially among younger, healthier people, that could be a problem for the act overall.

In order for this to work there is this sort of -- there`s this passive agreement that these young people have to help subsidize the cost of health care for everybody else.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Pete Dominick, Sirius XM host, there are those predicting that this could force Obamacare into some kind of death spiral because the entire thing is based on a lot of healthy people signing up. And they`re going to balance out the cost of the sick people with illnesses, pre-existing conditions, et cetera, et cetera.

But if they`re having so much trouble signing up and they go, well, forget about it then those premiums are going to sky rocket.

PETE DOMINICK, SIRIUS XM HOST: Well, yes, Jane. There`s a lot of concern to go around. But as you just showed that clip of John McCain suggesting we need to bring some bright minds in here to solve the problem, that`s what we need to do. This is a big problem. It`s a disaster no doubt.

But Americans have been waiting decades and decades for universal health insurance. I think we can wait a little longer than an hour that the frustrating Web site takes. There`s no doubt it`s a mess but I don`t know about you Jane but I`ve been without health insurance. And it was when I was young and healthy but working hard. If you`re without health insurance, you`ll do whatever it takes, most of us, to get health insurance.


DOMINICK: And the Affordable Care Act makes it more affordable. Who wants to get bankrupt on medical bills because you`re an active young person who likes to go mountain-biking?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I describe myself as a green libertarian. But the truth is that I wasn`t a fan of any kind of health care until I got cancer.

DOMINICK: Exactly.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Then I had to be freelanced and I tried to get insurance, not realizing that I had my COBRA plan that would operate for a long time. I didn`t know that. So I started getting on the phone trying to get insurance. Because I hadn`t been cancer free for five years -- click, click, click, click. Nobody would give me insurance. I agree. I think that this can help a lot of people.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: But it does not. Take away from the incompetence of this situation, ok? Because I have to rant about this -- I`m feeling the need. You know what I mean? The fact that Obamacare and this Web site was a disaster is obviously disappointing.

To me, it`s no surprise. I find this typical of government -- I have personally never called a government agency and been delighted by how smooth the process is. Come on. You know what I`m talking about. You get a busy signal. You`re put on hold forever. They tell you, oh, you know, call back Monday or go to the Web site. I can`t help you. Come on.

I would actually have been shocked if this had worked. And I do feel that this is an illustration of what the problem with our government is. I mean, I heard somebody today saying this isn`t as big as Facebook. Facebook can work. Why couldn`t this work?

Pete, that`s your cue dude.

DOMINICK: Oh sorry. I`m sorry. I thought you were still ranting. I was so interested --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I am I took a pause.

DOMINICK: Listen, Facebook is -- Jane, take it down a notch. Facebook is adding friends. This needs cooperation between private insurance, between customers and between government.

And I understand your frustration. But the point that you mentioned about what government -- you would be surprised if it works -- it does work for social security. It does work for Medicare and people love their Medicare. The government has plenty of Web sites that work efficiently.

This will get to work eventually, and people will benefit from it, especially those young people who are active, Jane, and anybody who needs health care.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I agree with you. And everybody says oh, we`ve got too much government spending, let`s cut Medicare or Medicaid. Some people think you shouldn`t cut, ok. It`s the 97-year-old lady who`s on Medicare or Medicaid, there`s so much other stuff to cut that they don`t talk about.

How about subsidies to big AG, for example?

Stay right there. We`ll be right back. I want to hear from you at home. Call me.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Time for Pet of the Day. Send your Pet pics to

Muggzie -- you are a poster child for just beauty. And Dulce, you are sweet. And Brewster -- says, "I`m a brewster? No, I`m a pet. Brewster, I`m a dog.

Bella says I`m all ready for Halloween. Where is the party? You`re invited, Bella.



OBAMA: While the Web site will ultimately be the easiest way to buy insurance through the marketplace, it isn`t the only way. The phone number for these call centers --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. And there`s the President of the United States. He had a tough job today. It was almost like hosting an infomercial. He had to give out, old school, the phone number. Yes, call because the Web site is not using too good. So let`s use the old phone.

Straight out to the phone lines -- speaking of phones, Kathy, Arizona. What have you got to say, Kathy.

KATHY, ARIZONA (via telephone): I just wanted to say that think all of our government officials are full of crap and we need to boycott and get a third party in there. Democrats and Republicans -- get rid of them.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I love it. I love if and I agree with you 100 percent. It`s not working. Ok? It really is not working. We need some fresh voices.

And Pete Dominick, we need fresh solutions. I am so sick of turning on these TV sets and hearing the Republicans and Democrats argue with each other. And then even the TV shows, they have people on the Republican side and people on the Democrat side. And they have the same tire arguments.

If these people were so smart, we wouldn`t be in the mess that we`re in. And yet if you talk about anything outside the box, people say you`re kooky. God forbid there could be an Independent party candidate or a Green Party candidate.

DOMINICK: Well, I`m like you. I`m an Independent. I`m an independent thinker.

What`s interesting right now is watching those -- the real feud is within the Republican Party. The fight for the future of the Republican Party -- there`s the far right and the right, if you will.

But, you know, the caller is frustrated like a lot of Americans. But it`s not these two parties. It would be great to have another party. It`s the system and how much money goes into it -- that`s what we need to change, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I agree. The first thing we need to do is get rid of the lobbyist. By the way, they did subcontract out this site to six private companies for hundreds of millions of dollars. Maybe they didn`t give them the right information to do the coding in time.

All right. It`s rough out there, isn`t it? We`ll be back in a second with our slice of happiness.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Before we go, our slice of happiness. Ok. I`ll scratch your back if you scratch mine. Take a look at this -- a boy and his dog. That is too adorable. That`s what I call love. I wish we could all love each other like that, more often.

Nancy Grace is up next.