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Family Found Butchered
Aired October 28, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, a mom and four children allegedly butchered by a relative. The cause -- they had too much.
Plus, the pillowcase rapist about to be a free man. He attacked 10, 20, 30 women, maybe even more. Is she still a danger? Was he successfully treated?
And Chris Brown at it again. He`s charged with felony assault while on probation for having hit Rihanna. The behavior bureau sounds off.
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening, everybody.
My co-host is Sirius XM Jenny Hutt.
And coming up, Chris Brown is out of jail tonight, but not out of trouble.
And, Jenny, the so-called pillowcase rapist --
JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: Yes.
PINSKY: I know you like those euphemisms. Those will make you very happy, of course.
HUTT: What euphemism? He took a pillowcase and snuffed them out and to rape them.
PINSKY: He`s about to release from prison. What are the chances he will reoffend?
The first story, this one is chilling.
Jenny, you are out here in New York tonight. This story has been on the headlines, all the news, television broadcasts. It is a chilling story of a 25-year-old man accused of butchering five of his family members, a mother and four young children. Why?
Take a look.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have like I said, a mother, two males and two of her sons and two of her daughters that were cut and butchered with a kitchen knife. The oldest was 9, the youngest was 1. They were the victims of a horrific act by a family member.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Chen was arrested at the home where the bloody meat cleaver was also recovered. Police say the illegal Chinese immigrant is a Chicago resident, but had been staying at his cousin`s apartment.
REPORTER: Have you ever seen anything like this?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s just a scene you will never forget. I`ll leave it at that.
PINSKY: Joining us: Mark Eiglarsh, attorney at speaktomark.com; Anahita Sedaghatfar, defense attorney; Lynn Berry, HLN host; and Loni Coombs, former prosecutor, author of "You`re Perfect and Other Lies Parents Tell".
Lynn, give us all details. What do we know now?
LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST: The details are gruesome. It`s being described by veteran police officers as unimaginable, something they`ve never seen, because it`s so uncommon to have a mass family murder with a stabbing, because normally the victims would have a chance to get away, but four of these were kids. So it hindered them.
Apparently, this victim -- this alleged suspect was disillusioned. He was from China. He was disillusioned by the success others had had. He had been staying with his family. The mother in this case had noticed some weird behavior. So, she called her and tried to get ahold of her husband. When she couldn`t, she called relatives in China who in turned called other relatives here in the States who went to the door.
They say they opened the door. He was covered in blood with the meat cleaver still in his hand. They ran off. They called 911. Thankfully there were police officers in the neighborhood responding to a robbery call. So they got there very quickly and apprehended him. They said that what they thought -- the 1-year-old that was decapitated --
HUTT: Oh God!
BERRY: Completely butchered. I mean, the scene was incredibly disturbing. The motive: even more disturbing.
PINSKY: And they kept going back and forth saying it was a kitchen knife, a cleaver. Whatever it was, it`s one of the most horrific crimes you can imagine.
Loni, I see on your face, this one has affected you deeply.
LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Dr. Drew, these were four babies. I mean, the oldest one was 5 years old. For this man -- I know people will give him some mental illness to explain it. He is jealous, he is greedy, and he is lazy.
He`s been here for ten years, never learned English. He relatives said he couldn`t hold a job for longer than a few weeks. He`s living at these people`s home.
They`re extending their love and welcome, allowing them to live in the home. And this is the way he repaying them, because he just can`t stand that they have more than he does. So, he kills every little baby and their mother.
I mean, it is unimaginable.
PINSKY: Mark, mental illness or not, I kind of agreed with Loni. He apparently pled not guilty. Does that mean they`re going to go for insanity?
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: No, everybody needs to understand that not guilty is what I enter on behalf of my client 99.9 percent of the time, even if a busload of nuns saw him doing, even if they confessed, even if there`s video, DNA and fingerprints.
It just means, number one -- you`re preserving your right to argue they don`t have the evidence to prove you guilty. Secondly, it may just be used as leverage to try to negotiate some type of plea offer.
In this case, I don`t know what there is to negotiate. They don`t have the penalty. So, he`s looking at a life sentence, which he probably accepts he`s going to get. I don`t know how you`re going to negotiate.
PINSKY: Anahita, what should happen to this guy? Forget the legal maneuvering. What ought to happen to him?
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, ATTORENY: Well, Dr. Drew, that`s for the jury to decide.
HUTT: Oh, c`mon! Oh, c`mon!
HUTT: That`s for a jury to decide what should happen to him.
SEDAGHATFAR: Can I answer?
SEDAGHATFAR: He has a presumption of innocence, as every criminal defendant. As I always say on your show, Dr. Drew, but here, once again, we see another murder, an alleged murder, and we`re a step behind again, Dr. Drew. How many cases do we cover on your show where people come forward after the fact saying the suspect was crazy, he was wacko, he was walking down the street talking with himself, covering up smoke detectors because he thought the FBI was spying on him.
SEDAGHATFAR: That`s not normal.
PINSKY: That`s right. Too late, though, when he kills somebody with a cleaver. The time to get help is before.
BERRY: Let me just add to that really quickly --
SEDAGHATFAR: That`s what I`m saying and we saw this with the Navy Yard shooting as well. So, my thing is Dr. Drew, you might have the answer. I don`t have it.
How do we identify people with mental illness before --
PINSKY: It`s not that hard. Don`t be afraid, don`t walk on egg shells, don`t worry about people`s rights, worry about their safety and health, their well-being, and the community`s well-being.
Lynn, you`ve got something to say here?
BERRY: Well, I just wanted to add that he allegedly confessed, apparently when those relatives came to the door, he looked at them and said, I know I`m done. He was also acting incredibly cold and unaffected. People saw him wandering around and the police officers said the same thing, completely unaffected. And we talked about that in a lot of cases we cover when it comes to this.
But here`s the thing. Mom was suspicious, she did try to get help, but he was in the home and he committed this crime before help could get there. We don`t know how far in advance there were warning signs.
PINSKY: No, ten years of this guy sitting around.
BERRY: Ten years of him being unemployed and losing his jobs? I don`t know if that said that he`s going chop up five babies.
PINSKY: Anahita, what --
SEDAGHATFAR: People did come forward.
PINSKY: And said what?
SEDAGHATFAR: People -- his friends and family said this guy was a little off.
HUTT: A little?
SEDAGHATFAR: Mentally unstable.
SEDAGHATFAR: So, my thing is there were warnings signs. We see this over and over all the time that people don`t step in. Is it a stigma associated with mental illness?
PINSKY: It`s stigma, fear of maybe hurting someone`s feelings.
I had a conversation with somebody the other day where they were afraid to look at a heroin addict`s backpack after he had stolen from them, because he might have offended, might not feel like we didn`t trust him. This is ridiculous.
EIGLARSH: OK. A couple things -- I`m all in favor if there are clears clear signs that it`s reasonably foreseeable that someone either with mental illness or with just defects in character, is going to go out and hurt someone, someone needs to step up.
EIGLARSH: However, number one, not all crimes are preventable, and number two, the last thing I want to see is just because someone suffers from a mental illness, all of a sudden they`re a danger, we now need to grab them. In your words, Drew, it doesn`t matter about their rights. Let`s grab them and do something.
In this case, if something could have been done, I`m all in favorite of it. But I don`t want to see some wide net cast upon those mentally ill and we drag them in because they could wind up butchering a family?
PINSKY: No, that`s the whole point. This kind of stuff will bias against the mentally ill. The fact is, if people get help sooner, this stuff will never -- this will be much rarer. The fact is the idea being that I have is that if physicians could mandate care, require people to get care, they could look at this guy and know he was in for big trouble, but you can`t require people to do -- to take treatment. You can`t require it.
HUTT: Dr. Drew, why did she have bruises on his face today? What happened?
PINSKY: I`ll show you the picture in court. He apparently got in a little scuffle with the cops when he -- the attorney is pointing out the head wounds he got. Shockingly, this man may have had a struggle with the police, when he was covered with blood with his family slaughtered about him.
PINSKY: The question, I guess, is -- Anahita, are they trying to get some case there that he was manage handled? Is that what they`re preparing to say?
HUTT: Who cares?
SEDAGHATFAR: Dr. Drew, those bruises are the least of this guy`s concerns. Come on, I mean, he`s being accused of brutally killing five people, four innocent children and a woman.
PINSKY: Oh my God! This must be the family guys. It`s shocking to see that --
EIGLARSH: I can point out why they`re doing it. Why they`re doing it, he`s also -- he`s also charged with assault.
EIGLARSH: He`s also charged with assaulting police, and the defense lawyers don`t have to just pick their battle on the most serious cases. They`ve got to defend them on all of them. So, they`re pointing out, look, he`s got bruises, they may have been the aggressors.
Listen, you don`t like it, but that`s their job. They`ve got to point those things out.
PINSKY: Jenny, last word. You agree with --
HUTT: Dr. Drew, here`s the thing. You`re talking about potentially mental illness or potentially that this was -- and Loni was saying he was angry, and he was jealous, and I believe all that. But there`s something - - beyond angry and jealous, people don`t hack other people and their families up into little bits, because they`re jealous because someone has a better job or a better life. This was beyond mental illness --
PINSKY: I want to give Loni a chance to follow up on that.
Go ahead, Loni.
COOMBS: My position is this. I don`t care what type of mental illness or examination or diagnosis you come up with. What he did was absolutely wrong. It`s unforgivable.
There`s no justification. There`s no rationalization. He needs to be prosecuted to the fullest extent the law allows, and not sit there and excuse his behavior in any way.
EIGLARSH: We all agree on that.
PINSKY: We all agree on that. I`m just saying it`s a tragedy for all, including him, that potential perhaps if we had some ability to intervene on these cases ahead of time, our system is messed up, our ability to mandate care is messed up. We`ve got a lot of trouble. I think that`s where some of this is bubbling up.
Let`s remind everybody, people with mental illness are much more likely to be the object of violence than the perpetrator. That statistically is the case.
Thank you, panel.
Next up we`ll bring in the behavior bureau to look at that. What possibly is going on with this killer? What are their opinions about it?
Later, this man raped nearly 40 women. He is about to go free. We will talk to somebody who could be living next to him, and how she feels about that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After allegedly using a meat cleaver to stab his cousin`s wife and their four young children to death, police say suspect Ming Dong Chen shoved an officer to the ground.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not sure if there was any mental issues that`s been documented. We believe if you commit such an act like this, that you cannot be too sane, but I won`t comment, I don`t know.
REPORTER: Can you make any comment as to the reason for him lashing out this way?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s really soft comment. He made a very soft comment that since he`s been in this country, everyone seems to be doing better than him. That was his soft comment. We`re not sure what that means.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host Jenny Hutt.
And, Jenny, I want to share a tweet with you before we go to the behavior. It`s from Saint Peter. "How in the world can you require people to get care? What is next? Warehouse them? Ghetto-ize them?"
Well, obviously, obviously, that`s not what I`m talking about, Jenny. But people get very touchy by this. Jenny, let me see up on the screen here with me, if I had two or three professionals, experts who had an opinion, let`s say the Aurora, Colorado, guy was likely to harm people, don`t you wish they`d had the opportunity to intervene in some sort of forceful way?
HUTT: Yes, but here`s the issue I have, Dr. Drew. And correct me if I`m wrong, sometimes you can`t tell who will go off the deep end. Like --
PINSKY: Jenny, sometimes you can`t tell, but two or three well- trained professionals should, if they have a consensus of opinion, should have the ability to require people.
PINSKY: Let`s get the panel together. I won`t be able to hear them, because I`m not hearing anything in my earpiece. The man complicated in the savage murder of his own relatives, a mother and fewer children.
HUTT: That`s great.
PINSKY: The man who has implicated himself in the savage murder of his own relatives, a mother, children, four children ages 1, 5, 7, and 9 -- all I`m hearing is my senior producer in my ear. Every time she talks, that is all I here.
So, this is going to be a confusing panel, guys.
Joining us is Danine Manette, criminal investigator, author of "Ultimate Betrayal"; Samantha Schacher, host of "Pop Trigger" of Young Turks Network; Cheryl Arutt, clinical and forensic psychologist; and Jennifer Keitt, life coach.
Thoughts on this guy. Danine, I`ll start with you since you like to throw a little gasoline on the fire.
DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: Well, you know, Dr. Drew, I could care less about why he did. You know how I am. I mean, it happened. it was a heinous, horrible offense. But --
PINSKY: Unfortunately, I can`t hear a word you`re saying.
MANETTE: It is, because you know I`m saying something important. But, anyway --
PINSKY: I`ll have my producer key me in, so I can hear you in the back grown of the room she`s in. But go ahead, finish.
MANETTE: OK. What really does disturb me, though, is that this father brought this person into this house to stay with him and his family. We beat up on a lot of moms on this show for allowing people to be around their children, but this guy was bouncing from place to place, he was obviously unstable. He did not just get crazy over the last 48 hours.
His wife was upset about -- you know, apparently there was in yelling going on in the house that was heard a couple days prior to this, where she was saying he has to go. So, for this father to decide this was a good person to have in his home while he`s gone at night to me is really disturbing. And I think we got to do a better job protecting our kids.
PINSKY: It is very disturbing. But, Cheryl, don`t you think it`s possible that this guy has been sick for a long time? We hear stories of him smoking excessively outside his house, which is something schizophrenics do. I had a schizophrenics smoke eight packs a day. They`re especial stimulated by the effects of nicotine.
Do you think he was sick for a long time and they were just in denial about it and then just too late?
CHERYL ARUTT, PSYCHOLOGIST: I think this guy, it sounds like he was sick for a long time. He`s been in the country for ten years. He didn`t learn how to speak English when someone comes at 15, that`s quite unusual. Noticing something like paranoid schizophrenia, especially culturally sometimes, it`s very -- there`s a lot of stigma about even noticing mental illness or going in for therapy is a really tough thing.
I think that clearly this is a guy has huge, huge problems. That`s also when age sometimes -- in the 20-plus, right around that time when schizophrenia can snap and really start to get very symptomatic or worse, don`t you think, Dr. Drew?
PINSKY: I want to show you a video of this guy in court today. He had a funny look. I think you`ll agree with me. We had a shot of this earlier. He does not seem to be connected. In fact, responding to internal stimuli. Not connected to the outside world in a normal way.
Jennifer, what about your thoughts --
JENNIFER KEITT, LIFE COACH: He just killed four people.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, POP TRIGGER: Dr. Drew --
KEITT: Interestingly enough, I think what we are seeing here is a complete breakdown of the family structure being ability to handle relatives, sons, daughters, aunts, uncles, coming into the situation. I really don`t think we`re equipped as families to be able to deal with being able to diagnosis mental illness in our families. It`s really getting difficult.
I think the national discourse like shows like this are going to have to really start to drive home what the symptoms are so that we can systematically get in there right away and say, hey, Johnny, there`s something going on, and I don`t like what I`m seeing in you and I got to be able to do something about it because it`s not just me, it`s my family too that`s on the line.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Sam.
SCHACHER: Yes. No, I agree. I mean, Dr. Drew, what`s eerie to me is the fact right afterwards, the neighbors described him as cool, calm and collected, but after his behavior changed drastically in the police station where he was less violent and less cooperative.
So, hat does that suggest about his mental state? Especially with the change of behavior so drastically so quickly?
PINSKY: All right. Here`s the deal. I have to take a quick break. Unfortunately, we`re having technical problems. I have not heard a word that anybody said.
So, I`m sure it`s enlightening with both Jennifer and Sam said. I heard a bit of Danine, and that`s it. That`s all I`ve heard on this panel.
So, I have to take a break. I remind people that we`re going to be talking about a man who raped dozens of women using a pillowcase to muffle their screams. Now, he`s about to be set free. We`re going to speak to someone who may be living near this guy.
Later, Chris Brown -- singer Chris Brown is on probation for assaulting ex-girlfriend Rihanna, now charged with another assault. This time perhaps heading to jail.
Back in a moment.
PINSKY: Welcome back.
My co-host Jenny Hutt. Now, the pillowcase rapist, so called, admitted, Jenny, admitted to raping 38 women over a ten-year period.
PINSKY: Well, I can tell already, you`re going to be in a primed sort of mood about this guy.
In and out of jail for ten years, out of mental institutions, for 40 years, and now, Christopher Hubbart, or Hubert, I`m not sure how you pronounce his name. I think it`s Hubbart, will be a free man, some say no longer a danger to society or I suppose they mean to women. We`ll have to see about that.
Take a look at this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So he`s a mental sick case, and they`re going to put him here in a community full of kids?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hubbart admitted to raping and molesting women at a two-week intervals over a two and a half year from 1969 to 1972.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was convicted, he served time, then he was released, because state doctors determined he was no longer a threat. Until in 1996, he was finally declared a sexually violent predator. But approximately, for 40 rapes Hubbart admitted to over the next 10 years.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He belongs in a mental institution in the state hospital.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But was never charged for approximately 70 unreported rapes, prosecutors say Hubbart continued raping and sexually assaulting victims after each parole.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One of the time he was released, he raped that same day.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is the house where serial rapist Christopher Hubbart could end up living.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I rent from the guys who`s going to rent this property to this convicted rapist.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now, after all these years, all those attacks, he`s set to be free again.
PINSKY: Back with us: Mark, Anahita, Lynn, and Loni.
Lynn, this guy seems dangerous, but am I wrong here?
BERRY: Doesn`t it seem like a no-brainer? I mean, he`s been released several times before and has done this right away, the same (INAUDIBLE). And he`s actually being sent back to the county that he committed many of those rapes. He`s within walking distance from a church, a school and a park.
If this would have happened after 1994, he would stay in jail for the rest of his life. That`s when California, enacted that three will have strike law. So, he would have been behind bars, but because he committed these crimes before that, he`s eligible for release, everyone is arguing he should be in a mental institution.
The Supreme Court in California said, no, any denied that. He`s going to be released probably within a few weeks. In 45 days, they`re going to have a hearing about this and you would imagine, if this community can doing in about it, it`s now go into the street, hold up the signs --
PINSKY: Here`s the deal. This is another one of these situations. I`m going to go straight across my attorneys on the bottom there, starting with Mark.
Why should he not be continued to be hospitalized after so much recidivism?
EIGLARSH: He should. However, legally, legally they don`t just look at him. Somebody evaluates him, and they deemed that he is now safe. Right or wrong, my guess is probably wrong based on his history, they deemed him no longer a threat.
So the way the law works, you can`t change it like a football game, give them extra minutes, the way the law works, they do their time, if they do for this civil place and the doctors say he`s OK, he comes out. Those are the rules.
SEDAGHATFAR: I agree with Mark 100 percent. I`m a little bit conflicted. As a woman, obviously I`m appalled, I`m scared to death that a guy who rapes 38 women`s and said he can`t control his impulses will be roaming the streets. But the lawyer in me says, OK, he did the crime, he served the time. We have to respect that.
HUTT: We don`t have to.
SEDAGHATFAR: The law says -- yes, we do. You`ve got to go to the legislature and try and repeal these laws, change the law.
BERRY: The law was changed.
SEDAGHATFAR: But let`s keep him in prison. It doesn`t work that way. It does that the work that way.
COOMBS: You can`t change the rules my stream.
BERRY: But the rules were changed in 1994. And had he committed to crimes after 1994, he would be put away. Why railroad grandfathered into something?
COOMBS: That`s the keyword, "if."
Look, you`re all missing the point here. The legislature actually enacted an act to try to keep this guy put away forever. It`s called the Sexually Violent Predators Act. It essentially says every time he gets out, we know he`s going to run and rape another woman, we want to keep him in prison, but we can`t. There are certainly prison sentences.
So, what you do when the sentence is over? Let`s throw them into a mental institution and leave him there until somebody says he`s actually safe to come out.
Now, believe me, the lawyers assumed that the mental doctors, the mental --
PINSKY: Would keep them there, psychiatrist.
COOMBS: Want to keep them there, and say he`s dangerous. But in this case, his therapist, and the director of his state hospital said, hey, he`s safe, he can get out. The lawyers are up in arms and tried to stop it.
PINSKY: Jenny, go ahead.
HUTT: Dr. Drew, I have a question. Do you think this is the kind of guy, 40 rapes over 11 years, probably more, that is the type of guy that can be rehabilitated?
PINSKY: No, nor do I think a state mental hospital is equipped to do the kind of treatment that could even potentially if someone who was treatable. Basically it`s chronic psychiatric care, which is sort of warehousing, and medicine, a bit of therapy. It usually isn`t much more. Not the kind of intensive care that -- what, Mark?
EIGLARSH: Let`s forward on moving forward. Moving forward we have something called the internet, we have a completely different communications systems that when he first raped somebody a couple of decades ago.
PINSKY: It`s going to get worse.
EIGLARSH: Everyone needs to know who this guy is, there is his picture. Everyone needs to protect their women, their children. Let`s move forward.
PINSKY: So listen, this is not the -- the courts have not completely lost their mind. There is a condition. They put a monitoring ankle bracelet on him. He has to report his movements, smith to polygraphs and other tests, apparently on a regular basis, weekly psychologist visits. So, it`s sort of a halfway house or intermediate level of care.
EIGLARSH: Hey, Drew.
PINSKY: They`re not turning him loose on the community.
EIGHLARSH: Drew, that is 100 times better than the thousands of people who are released today in prisons throughout this country who are extraordinarily violent we don`t know about.
EIGHLARSH: So, at least there`s some monitoring. I`m pleased about that, I`m not thrilled that he`s going to be released into society, but that`s good.
LONI COOMBS, AUTHOR, "YOU`RE PERFECT . . .": Right, but, Dr. Drew, there`s also -
PINSKY: And I am going to talk to somebody who lives in that neighborhood. We`ll have more about this, but Loni, go ahead.
COOMBS: Well you know there`s also a risk with that too because they`re having a hard time getting a home where he can actually go to, and they`ve already said, if he ends up being homeless, all of these monitoring techniques are going to go down the drain because they won`t be able to keep track of him.
COOMBS: So, first they actually have to get a place, a neighborhood who`ll accept him to live in a home so they -
Female: They can`t monitor him.
COOMBS: Hold on a minute, they can.
Female: The question is, can they?
PINSKY: Listen, I`m - for me I`m learning as I go here what the legal system does.
EIGLARSH: We`ve got them living under bridges here in Miami.
PINSKY: I`m sure of it.
EIGLARSH: They`re literally living under bridges, there`s no place for them, because there`s a school everywhere.
COOMBS: Hold on.
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, ATTORNEY: Dr. Drew, this whole entire argument is misguided. I mean, there is no dispute. Do you think anyone`s going to come and say `Hey, I want this rapist to be my neighbor. I want him living in my backyard.`
PINSKY: You do?
SEDAGHATFAR: Duh! No, of course not.
EIGHLARSH: Well, you`re very liberal.
SEDAGHATFAR: But I don`t think anybody does. I don`t think anybody does, so that argument, it`s misguided. It`s a no-brainer. We know that, let`s focus on changing the laws and trying to figure out ways to make sure that people who rape 38 women do not walk free again.
Female: And do not get erections.
SEDAGHATFAR: That`s what we should focus on here.
PINSKY: Ways above (inaudible.) What did you say, Jenny?
JENNY HUTT, HLN HOST: Castrate him. Make it that he can`t get an erection ever again.
PINSKY: You guys are going all the way to the mat with this. OK, even I don`t suggest anything such as that, but female rage knows no bounds. OK, guys, here we go - Behavior Bureau`s coming in here next, and we`ll weigh in on the story. And later on, singer Chris Brown is accused of hurling anti-gay insults and then getting involved in another violent altercation. Back with more after this.
Male: He does not belong in a community with children where he will once again commit these types of crimes.
Male: The bus stop is right in front of my house with all the kids. So, I don`t know what the heck`s going on with that.
Male: So, he`s a mental sick case and they`re going to put him here in a community full of kids.
PINSKY: Welcome back. I`m here with my co-host. I`m also here with the Behavior Bureau - Danine, Sam, Cheryl and Jennifer. We`ve been discussing a man who raped dozens of women in the 70s and 80s about to be released from prison. I have a Tweet for you guys I want you to respond to. It is from Somer Klemmer, it says, "Dr. Drew, what can families do to help a mentally ill person that doesn`t want to get help?" -- which is a very common problem. Cheryl, what do you say to that?
CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D.: Well, I think if it`s not somebody who`s a danger to themselves or somebody else, it`s good to actually look at what is this person interested in? What are their goals? And to help show them that not getting out of their own way is keeping them from having the life that they want and motivating them that way -
PINSKY: Cheryl, I`m going to interrupt you right there. It`s interesting. It interesting - it shows the difference between the types of patient you deal with and the types I deal with. I`m always looking for leverage to get them into treatment for their own good. Danine, do you agree with that?
DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: Yes, I do. I think you need to use whatever is available to you to get them the help that they need. And if you have to do bribes or leverage or whatever, whatever the outcome is, the end justifies the means.
PINSKY: All right, let`s go on with this story. This gentleman has been - gentleman? This man has been cleared -
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Pig.
PINSKY: Thank you, Sam. He`s been cleared to live in a Lost Angeles I guess neighborhood or suburb. They are outraged. I`ve got Nicole Stone, she is one of the neighbors. She joins us by phone. Nicole, talk to us about the outrage and what the thoughts are in the community there.
NICOLE STONE, AGAINST RAPIST MOVING INTO HER NEIGHBORHOOD: Basically the thoughts are what is going to happen to us as people? Why should we have to suffer in our own homes where we won`t feel safe?
PINSKY: Well, Nicole, let me stop you - let me stop you and say are you - you`re a 20-year-old female. Are you frightened yourself? Are you and your peers that live in that town - are you scared?
STONE: Yes, I am. And out of all honesty, if he moves in, I don`t want to go home. I don`t want to have to sit in my room and fear for myself.
PINSKY: Have you considered that he apparently is being carefully monitored. Is the community getting together to do their own monitoring, and -- or any way to - are you just trying to do what you can to keep him out?
STONE: We`re doing what we can to keep him out and keep him where he is. He is a danger to society. He has been released on several occasions and has raped again.
PINSKY: Now, Jenny, I wonder if you guys have a question for Nicole. She seems like a very lovely, articulate young woman. Anybody have a question for her? Jenny?
HUTT: Well, just have you - have you band together with your peers to sort of - I`m not really into the mob mentality except in a case like this. I kind of think you really need to take action. What have you specifically done?
STONE: I have started a Facebook page where people can go on and they can express their concerns, they can write personal statements to me which I`m going to e-mail over to the judge himself. We are actually holding a peaceful protest on Saturday, November 2nd at 5:00 p.m. to express our opinions and our views on it where everybody will get to have a chance to talk and say how they`re feeling. Basically, we`re just trying to do this in the most peaceful manner that we can possible.
HUTT: Nicole, oh sorry --
PINSKY: Jennifer, you seem to be vigorously nodding your head - let me get Jennifer next. Go ahead, Jennifer.
JENNIFER KEITT, LIFE COACH: I`m also wondering as far as the landlord is concerned, is there any pressure that the community can put on him in terms of making sure that his facility is in compliance, you know, with making sure this guy doesn`t` get out. I mean, another thing is too can - I don`t want to say boycott, but is there something that can be done for - this person is actually willing to rent this gentleman a place to live, and I`m kind of wondering can pressure be put on him?
STONE: Actually, he`s not willing - he`s not willing to rent.
STONE: I can tell you that the landlord is actually very angry about it himself and he is trying to appeal that court order -
STONE: -- that he did not approve of this man being moved in. He did, however, agree to a program that would help people like that, not rapists themselves --
STONE: -- but rehabilitate people, and he tried to do a good thing that just turned horribly, horribly bad.
KEITT: I see.
STONE: Everybody is pinning this on him and he is just as furious as the rest of us.
PINSKY: Well, Nicole, thank you so much for filling us in and giving us a perspective from the community`s point of view. And good luck with your peaceful - what should we call it? The sit-in this weekend.
PINSKY: Good luck with that.
PINSKY: OK, I want to ask you.
SAM: Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Sam, go.
SAM: Yes, I`m furious. How is this man allowed to walk the streets? Let`s say that he -
PINSKY: I know.
SAM: -- is rehabilitated and not a threat to society. Of course he`s not, but listen to this, like seriously - people like this who`ve ruined dozens of women`s lives should rot in his jail cell and his life should be ruined. It makes me sick that he`s even going to be allowed to be walking on the street.
PINSKY: OK, so Danine, I want to go to you. So, you`ve got Sam who is at a distance offended on behalf of women, you`ve got Nicole who`s living in fear under the shadow of this guy - what do we do?
MANETTE: Well, you know I honestly am completely shocked that this guy got out because I have seen people who offended far fewer people that were recommitted under the sexually violent predator law which leads me to believe that maybe he was able to manipulate the staff that evaluated him. Because I can`t understand why he`s gotten out.
PINSKY: Right. Right.
MANETTE: But with that being said -
Female: He`s done it before.
MANETTE: Exactly. But with that being said, I`m honestly of the opinion that the snake that you know where it is, is better than the snake that you don`t. And I think that a lot of people have false senses of security because of the fact that they have this Megan`s Law and they know where all the predators are. But it`s the predators that you don`t know where they are that are far more dangerous, so -
PINSKY: Actually a good point -
MANETTE: -- people that work in - the coaches and the, you know, staff at the school and stuff like that. So, at least they`ll know where this guy is to a certain degree, and you know, they can at least stay away from him.
PINSKY: Point well taken. Cheryl, finish up with you. Do you agree with me that this is way - this horse is long out of the barn?
ARUTT: I absolutely agree with you. As a mental health professional, I don`t know how any of those mental health professionals could say with any kind of certainty that this man is no longer a danger to women. Are they going to wait for him to rape more women before they can lock him up again? As Sam said, this ruins women`s lives. There is no excuse to let him out, I know Jackie Lacey tried to get it stopped.
PINSKY: OK, you know we`re all from California. I smell overcrowding and those sorts of things coming to bear here too, you notice how they`re sort of trying to keep him incarcerated in this little house. I don`t know, something doesn`t smell right here. But again -
Female: Right, I agree.
PINSKY: -- if anyone has a comment or a question for the Behavior Bureau, Tweet us at @drdrewhln #Behavior Bureau. Thank you, Behavior Bureau. Up next, Chris Brown in trouble with the law again. Find out why he could be headed to jail and what kinds of trouble he got himself into this time. Be right back.
Female: R and B singer Chris Brown is in trouble with the law once again.
Male: This time, we`re talking about a felony arrest charge for beating a man outside of a posh Washington, D.C. hotel.
Male: On this police report, he said that Brown punched him in the face and then that Brown`s bodyguard stepped in and punched him in the face.
Female: Police arrested Chris Brown and his bodyguard early on Sunday morning.
Female: In case you`ve forgotten here, Brown is already on probation and this could blow it for him. Four years ago, Brown pled guilty to assaulting then girlfriend Rihanna.
CHRIS BROWN, R AND B SINGER: What I did was unacceptable, 100 percent. I can only ask and pray that you forgive me please.
Male: The rapper with the rap sheet - it`s getting a little longer.
Male: He`s on probation and he`s throwing chairs allegedly in the dressing room at ABC.
HEATHER HANSEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The last time there was an allegation that he violated his probation, it was for that hit and run accident.
BROWN: I hope that others learn from my mistake. I intend to live my live so that I am truly worthy of the term `role model.`
PINSKY: Oh, boy, I`m not sure he`s living up to that.
HUTT: Yes, OK.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host Jenny Hutt, Danine Manette, Samantha Schacher, Jennifer Keitt with us tonight. Chris Brown released without bail, his charged had been reduced to misdemeanor simple assault. He has been ordered to see his probation officer in California within 48 hours. Sam, did you want to say something right off the bat here?
SCHACHER: Well, I`m sorry, Chris Brown is a jerk with a capital J. And you know what, since 2009, OK, first of all, that image of Rihanna still haunts me. But since 2009, if I were Chris Brown, I would have done everything possible to show the world that I am a changed man or I`m actively trying to be a better man, but what have we seen? An ever-growing rap sheet. And to some of his defenders, because I`ve gotten a lot of Tweets today because I`ve been pretty outspoken about this, they say well, what if this victim provoked Chris Brown? Well, that`s where Chris Brown should walk away or count to 10. That`s where he has a security guard, a bodyguard to take care of it for him.
MANETTE: Yes, you can take the boy out of the hood but you cannot take the hood out of the boy. I mean, this is ridiculous. And that - and that`s my - I was wondering also. What do you have a security guard for if you`re going to be fighting? Isn`t that what the bouncer is for?
SCHACHER: Yes, he wants to fight.
MANETTE: What`s that about?
SCHACHER: He wants to fight.
MANETTE: He`s looking for a fight. Yes. Yes.
KEITT: I have --
PINSKY: Jennifer. Jennifer. Wait, hang on a second. Women, girls that have been traumatized in childhood tend to act in. Males that have been traumatized in childhood tend to act out. They externalize their aggression. And, pretty clearly, that`s what`s going on with Chris Brown. Why doesn`t he get some sort of - get in the hands of somebody - again, why doesn`t he get help? That`s what we keep asking about.
PINSKY: So won`t perpetrate these things. What do you say?
KEITT: He needs a good old-fashioned talking from his mama - jacking his butt up against the wall. Because I`ve got kids, Chris Brown`s age, and I`m telling you, I would not allow them -
KEITT: -- to embarrass me like this publicly and nationally. The reality of it is this man has got a tremendous platform to make a tremendous difference and every time you turn around, his anger has got him out of control.
KEITT: He needs to be jacked against the wall, I`m sorry.
PINSKY: And, Jenny, anger management for somebody that acts out like this, it`s not going to do anything -
HUTT: No, well -
PINSKY: -- he needs a lot more comprehensive help.
HUTT: I would think - I don`t even know what could do something. Even beyond the fact that he has this platform like Jennifer was saying -
HUTT: He`s really talented.
Female: Yes, he is.
Female: He can sing, he can dance.
HUTT: He`s a gifted soul, what is he doing squandering that?
PINSKY: People want him to - people are pulling for him. People want him to be better --
PINSKY: But he`s letting everybody down including himself. Back with more after this.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host Jenny Hutt. We`ve also got Danine, Samantha and Jennifer, and I want to share a Tweet with you all from @kimmywis, "I so agree re Chris Brown. He knocked out hotel windows when an interview didn`t go his way." #spoiledbrat #Behavior Bureau. Sam, do you agree:
SCHACHER: I do agree and there`s been a number of incidents. He got into the altercation with Drake at a nightclub, he got into a physical altercation with Frank Ocean in a parking lot. So it just continues to build and build and build. He`s not doing anything to help his case.
PINSKY: Jenny, physical violence is how people end up in jail, right? I mean, isn`t that a dangerous person who continues to act out violently?
HUTT: I would think so, Dr. Drew. I mean, if it`s going to continue to escalate and get worse and worse, and he`s going to do something that causes irreparable damage, then yes, he`ll end up in jail. Or that`s what we can hope, but we would hope that he`d end up dealing with this - that someone would force him to deal with this -
HUTT: -- before anyone really gets hurt.
PINSKY: And - well anyone really gets hurt - let`s - Danine, let`s remind ourselves what he did to Rihanna -
HUTT: No doubt.
PINSKY: He bashed her head into the dashboard of the car. Danine?
MANETTE: Right, and he`s had no real consequences for any of his behaviors. I mean, Rihanna was defending him, he got his charge reduced to a misdemeanor. I mean, we`re in a violent society, people get off on this. When I was a kid you had to watch Roller Derby to see a good fight. Now, he`ll probably pick up more followers and more fans because people are into this culture of violence. And that`s what he promotes apparently.
KEITT: And that`s exact -
PINSKY: Well, I - well, Jennifer, he seems to be contrite and wanting to change, but he just doesn`t seem to be able to.
KEITT: And that`s what - I`ve got a question first. So how does someone look in the mirror and say, `Is this the me that I really should be?` I wonder does he have that ability to be able to do that. And then, if not, can people begin to put the pressure - maybe it`s in his pocketbook. Maybe if the fans start saying, `Look, you know what, I`m done with you, Chris. You`re lame, I`m done. I`m absolutely done.` And if they`d stop buying the downloads, if they stop buying and paying to go see him, maybe, I don`t know, will that be enough for him to look in the mirror and say, `I`ve got to change.`
Female: But they like it.
HUTT: I would hope so.
SCHACHER: We would hope so, but I don`t think the kids will do that. The kids like it unfortunately.
HUTT: The moms, we would boycott him, though.
PINSKY: When somebody - when somebody has that kind of overwhelming aggression, the consequence that`s going to come to them has to come to mind when he`s feeling that aggression.
PINSKY: And some people black out or red out - they don`t know what they`re doing when they have that kind of aggression. And he seems to be that kind of guy to me. And the consequence has to be so severe that it`s easier to call to mind or this guy needs treatment for his trauma, and I - that takes a long time.
KEITT: I guess jail is it then, I guess jail is going to be what it`s going to be.
PINSKY: Well that`s unfortunately where it ends up and that`s the sad reality here. So, thank you, panel, "Last Call" is next.
QUEST: Time for "The Last Call." This is a Tweet - this goes to Victoria Waters. "It`s not OK to put your hands on anyone" -- this is regarding the Chris Brown incident - "This guy has been a ticking time bomb for a long timeineeds to go to jail! Now." Jenny.
HUTT: Well, Dr. Drew, do you think jail is going to be what saves him or fixes him?
PINSKY: I`m not sure if jail is the place people go to become less aggressive and less violent, I`m just saying, yes, I hope he gets some help. It`s really a sad situation. And it`s pertinent to the sex offender case too. People need to get help before they hurt themselves or someone else. There is help available, but once it`s too late, once you go too far, sorry. That`s it. Jenny, thank you tonight. Thank you all for watching. We will see you next time and, guess what? "HLN After Dark" starts right now.