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Parents Guilty of Sex Abuse
Aired October 30, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, are these the worst parents ever? They forced their young children into sex acts with mom and dad who then documented the entire thing on tape. Are decades in prison punishment enough?
Plus, the other woman. What will the behavior bureau say about this mistress and her relationship with an accused wife killer?
And, a child runs into the path of an oncoming truck. We will show you what happens next.
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening.
My co-host is attorney and Sirius XM Radio host Jenny Hutt.
And, coming up, oh, yes, Gypsy, the other woman, the mistress of an accused murderer, behavior bureau is going to dig into that one. They`ve got a lot to say.
But before we go anywhere near that, we`ve got something just stunning. Sarah and Jonathan Adleta -- there they are -- guilty of sexually abusing their own children and the details when you get into them are even more horrific if it`s possible.
Before they married, before they even had children, Jonathan, a former Marine told the woman, Sarah, he wanted -- get this, Jenny -- daddy/daughter sex.
Sarah told jurors in a courtroom she was willing to do whatever it took to be with him. She has just been sentenced to 54 years in prison.
The whole story is so nauseating, Dr. Drew, that hearing you talk about it and reading about it, it`s just -- it`s vile. People should know they should have sort of vomit buckets nearby.
PINSKY: I was going to recommend a barf bag because this is -- this keeps going. The husband is set to be sentenced in December.
Joining us to discuss, Dean Obeidallah, CNN.com and "Daily Beast" contributor, Anahita Sedaghatfar, defense attorney, Lynn Berry, HLN host, and Mark Eiglarsh, attorney at speaktomark.com.
Now, we`ve heard -- this country, there`s been almost pandemic of adults sexually abusing children, even parents sexually abusing their kids. But this couple planned on sexually abusing the child before they had them, before they were born.
Lynn, am I getting this right?
LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST: Yes, you said at the beginning of the show are these the worst parents ever? The answer is yes. I struggle to even find words to describe the story. It is disturbing.
Apparently, dad had told this woman he wanted daddy-daughter sex before they even got married. She had a baby with him, then they got married. She would perform sexual acts with their children for his enjoyment even after they were divorced.
It was tipped off to the FBI that this was going on, that she was sending actually somebody else in another state in North Carolina pictures of her naked with a child. That`s when the FBI started investigating this and they realized this went much deeper than just some pictures, which in and of itself is disturbing, that she would actually perform these acts for this man in North Carolina via Skype and he would watch it.
This is her 4-year-old daughter. It is unimaginable. She, by the way, has pled guilty to this. She admits to doing this. So, we`re not judging before the fact. She thought that testifying against her ex-would get her a lesser sentence. She did get the max, 54 years in prison.
But I think everybody watching this right now would say there is no sentence that could be long enough that would justify these kinds of acts.
PINSKY: As you said, Lynn, the story goes on. They divorced in 2011, then Jonathan met this woman, Samantha Bryant. She had the 4-year-old daughter. He then, this is her new man, that starts sexually abusing that girl.
So, the mother also knowingly allowed that. Anahita, how do we get our head around this? And are these mothers? Do we call these mothers? What do we call these women?
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They`re not mothers, Dr. Drew. I`m kind of at a loss for words. And you know me, it`s rare I don`t have a lot to say.
PINSKY: Yes, you seem to be doing just fine.
SEDAGHATFAR: And it seems like, you know, is this becoming a trend now? Are mothers just willing to give up their kids to pedophiles in order to land a man? I hope to God that this isn`t what`s happening, Dr. Drew.
Why not try to put on lipstick, put on a new dress, smile at a guy -- something less grotesque than giving your child up to be raped by a grown man in order to land a man. That is something I can never wrap my head around, Dr. Drew.
HUTT: Hold on a second.
Dr. Drew, these are women who are attracting men who are clearly screwed up. This is not a normal woman attracting a normal guy with a little lipstick. My lipstick`s going to do nothing for that kind of guy, frankly.
BERRY: He`s a pedophile. And just talking about the effects on this child, when the FBI came and arrested the parents, the child was malnourished. She wasn`t potty-trained. She had the behavior of an 18- month-old, and she had sexualized behaviors.
So, much so that the caretaker had to have her leave the home because the behaviors were so sexualized. There is a 4-year-old that had this happen to her.
PINSKY: Look at that list. When you look at that -- Dean, when you look at that list, malnourishment, a 4-year-old is behaving in a provocative sexual manner. It`s -- by the way, when a child acts in an explicitly sexual way, you know they were gotten to by an adult.
But, Dean, what are your thoughts?
DEAN OBEIDALLAH, DAILY BEAST: I mean, I fluctuate from wanting to throw up -- my blood boiling from the situation when you hear about what she is parents did, and there`s no silver lining, but the one we can take away is at least this woman is going to be in prison for over 50 years and not molest other children, and her husband or ex-husband is going to be sentenced to a long prison term, as well.
And, you know, we`ve talked about parents denying their children did anything wrong. In this case, the defendant`s father made an impassioned plea to the judge saying, give my daughter the maximum. At least that was a good step. You know, maybe he should have seen signs earlier. But at least he wasn`t in denial.
SEDAGHATFAR: I disagree.
PINSKY: You disagree?
SEDAGHATFAR: I disagree.
PINSKY: Anahita, why?
SEDAGHATFAR: Here`s my thing. I`m not going to reiterate or discuss. We all agree. No brainer, these parents are vile.
But this father comes to his daughter`s sentencing and says, your honor, give her the maximum. Well, I`d say he`s a little bit too late to the party. His 4-year-old granddaughter, you just listed, she wasn`t potty-trained. She could barely speak. She was exhibiting sexualized behavior and he didn`t notice this before and he didn`t step in and say, hey, what`s wrong with my granddaughter? Why is she behaving this way?
PINSKY: Hold on. Mark, I`ll get to you in one second. You`re next.
Anahita just does bring up a good point. How many nights do we get on here and say if people had gotten to this earlier, we wouldn`t be in a disaster. Did this grandfather not have any idea his daughter needed some very serious help.
But, Mark, shockingly, shockingly, this I believe happened in Florida. I`m shocked.
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Oh, don`t start. The Sunshine State, come on, Drew.
First of all, let me bring a gift for Jenny Hutt for you, and candidly for me if at some point, I really kind of absorb what these people did. Because this is the only thing that`s going to help us through this.
PINSKY: Thank you for that, my friend.
EIGLARSH: Let me just say this --
PINSKY: I can really count on you for that.
EIGLARSH: Yes. The only one that I can defend candidly is the grandfather because, Anahita, I believe prematurely without any facts somehow condemned him, and somehow it`s not necessarily always able to be told or seen that someone has molested someone else. There`s no evidence of that at all.
SEDAGHATFAR: I find it hard to believe. I find it hard to believe.
EIGLARSH: Hold on.
PINSKY: Mark, mind you, the child was malnourished, not potty-trained and 18-month developmental age. Maybe the grandfather thought there was something wrong with the child.
EIGLARSH: They should look at him.
But here`s the other point I wanted to make and this is very unpopular but I just feel like making an unpopular statement.
EIGLARSH: I believe that 50-some-odd years, for what they did could be appropriate. In this case, however, the prosecutors after she had testified against him, recommended 27 years, the bottom of the guidelines. The judge then ordered 54 years, sentenced her to 54 years.
If any defendant -- I practice in federal court routinely. Now if any defendant is considering trying to resolve a case with the prosecution, if this happens too frequently, no one`s going to take a plea offer. The system is going to shut down.
People are going to say, well, I can`t trust the offer the prosecution is going to make. You know what? I`ll just go to trial and the system will shut down.
So, I`m just mentioning this because I`m concerned about the integrity of the system and judges need to kind of support prosecutors when they make plea offers.
OBEIDALLAH: But, Mark, the judge said this it is one of the most horrific cases he`s ever seen. He`s a federal judge. He sees a lot of horrific stuff.
OBEIDALLAH: At some point, you can`t agree with the plea deal, in the interest of justice, it`s not being served to give someone a minimum. You have -- and I used to be a lawyer before I saw the light and got out of it.
But in reality, sometimes a judge has to step up and say this is not serving justice.
BERRY: And this was a Hail Mary on the part of the mother. She knew she was going to get the maximum. You can`t do these kinds of egregious acts and not expect the maximum.
PINSKY: And then the dad --
HUTT: (INAUDIBLE) the child for sex.
SEDAGHATFAR: That`s what makes it -- that`s what makes it even more egregious. One of her excuses was I was manipulated by my husband and I would do anything to be with him.
Well, Dr. Drew, men don`t manipulate women into raping their own children or allowing other men to rape. They might manipulate you to go out on a date with them, maybe to try to get you into bed, but they don`t manipulate a mother to rape her own child. That is a B.S. excuse.
And I think that`s part of the reason why the judge sentenced her to the maximum here.
PINSKY: Because there was no excuse.
Now, the guy, this marine, this guy with the mind control capacity was apparently a decorated marine, but obviously a sexual deviant, as well.
This guy is going to go to trial soon, as well. Do you expect the same thing to happen to him, Anahita?
PINSKY: Or he`s going to be sentenced, by the way.
SEDAGHATFAR: Especially in this case, he should. He should get the max. He continued to do this with his daughter after the divorce, not to mention you brought this up earlier in the show, he`s found another girl, another 23-year-old woman that has a child. He also raped that child. And the worst part about this is that he was living a double life.
SEDAGHATFAR: I think unfortunately, that`s what we see with pedophiles. They should wear a sign that says "I`m a pedophile" so we know how to deal with these crazies.
OBEIDALLAH: You got to catch them.
SEDAGHATFAR: But they don`t, which is why, Dr. Drew, I mention this every time we talk about these cases -- people need to bring this up when they see children abused and signs.
PINSKY: See something, say something. It`s all over the subways here in New York, Jenny. That`s a great thing to live by, an aphorism.
But, first, we`re going to talk next to a neighbor of the woman about what she saw going on right across the street in that woman`s house.
And later, behavior bureau looks at the mistress at the center of a murder trial. There is Gypsy. We`re going to sink our teeth into Gypsy once and for all here.
Back in a moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHANEY MILLS, NEIGHBOR OF SARAH ADLETA: It`s a kid and you know that that`s not right. I think it`s disgusting. I`m in speechless shock right now that my neighbor does that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: We`re back.
My co-host is Jenny Hutt.
And we are talking about Sarah and Jonathan Adleta.
In 2009, Sarah became pregnant. Her boyfriend told her he would marry her, how quaint, only if she allowed him to have daddy -- what he called daddy-daughter sex with potential, as yet unborn children. They`ve both been found guilty of sex crimes against their own children.
The behavior bureau has something to say about it.
But before I introduce them, Jenny, I want to share a tweet with you. This is from @trulylovely1. She says, "I could vote for the death penalty for these two people with no hesitation."
HUTT: Yes. In a way, Dr. Drew, it`s like they robbed this kid of a life. They had this child.
HUTT: They had this child with the intent to abuse the child. What kind of a life is that? I don`t think these people should be breathing.
PINSKY: We`re going to talk about that.
Let`s get that behavior bureau in here.
Judy Ho, psychologist; Cheryl Arutt, clinical and forensic psychologist; Tiffanie Davis Henry, psychotherapist and HLN contributor; Karen Salmansohn, author of "Prince Harming Syndrome".
And joining us by phone, I have the neighbor Chaney Mills. She knew Sarah Adleta, lived right across the street.
MILLS (via telephone): Yes.
PINSKY: -- I`ve got a million questions for you.
Did you see evidence, did you see the children? Were you concerned before all this news broke loose?
MILLS: Yes, I always us knew something was off. I couldn`t put my finger on it. It wasn`t my business, but I knew by the way the kids acted. I mean, they would be running around the yard naked all the time. Not only that, the 4-year-old daughter which I have a 4-year-old boy, she couldn`t talk. She couldn`t communicate with you. She was not reaching any of the milestones that kids do at that age. I mean, it was -- like you just knew.
PINSKY: Did you ever interact with the mom and ask what was up with the child? I also understand that mom would bring home random men and you actually would discuss that with her, as well.
MILLS: Yes, you know, I`m a makeup artist. She`d ask if I would do her makeup so she would go on blind dates. I said yes. She`s like, well, we`re going to be here watching a movie and I`m like you`re taking a man you don`t know to your home. I said, you have little girls and boys. You need to really watch that.
She didn`t care. There were different cars always in her driveway. So --
PINSKY: Cheney, how do you -- help us understand what`s going on with these children now, who is taking care of them? What are your concerns going forward?
MILLS: Like, for those kids, I feel so sorry that they`re going to now have to grow up like that. But as of now, I know that the kids are separated in foster care and they are going to get, you know, new homes and all that. But --
PINSKY: Hold tight, Tiffanie.
So, my panel have questions for you, Chaney. I`m going to give Tiffanie a chance to ask you a question.
Go ahead, Tiffanie.
TIFFANIE DAVIS HENRY, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: Hey, Chaney, thanks for joining us.
I know that you probably were not the only person that saw the things that you saw, the kids running naked, the developmental milestones that were missed and all of that. Why do you think folks don`t go and report these types of things to Child Protective Services and certainly did you report this to Child Protective Services?
MILLS: No, I didn`t only because she moved in probably you know a year when I was living here. So we didn`t hang out that much but when she did, I would address her. You know, I`d say, you know, we all told her you need to put the daughter in speech. She`s like yes, yes, but she was a procrastinator. She tried to say the daughter was autistic and that`s why.
But I believe she didn`t want the kids to talk because if they talked, they would tell.
PINSKY: Oh, that`s interesting, Chaney. It`s also good information there that she was brushing the kids off to the community as though the child had a medical problem, not that they were abusing the kid.
Chaney, thank you so much for joining us. I really appreciate the information.
MILLS: No problem, no problem.
PINSKY: We`re going to get onto the panel now.
Cheryl, this girl has been sexually abused now her entire life, sort of ritualistically abused. Is there a possibility for recovery for a poor child like that?
CHERYL ARUTT, CLINICAL & FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: I hope that there is a possibility, but this is just the most horrific double whammy of incest and pedophilia. This is, you know, these are babies. It`s not just father-daughter. These are little babies and toddlers and little kids. This is when basic safety is getting established.
So, you know, when your own parents who are supposed to protect you put you through the these kinds of violations and there`s no way to even form the words or protect themselves, there`s a whole lot that has to happen in order to try to get these kids to have some semblance of a life.
PINKSY: If it`s possible.
And, Karen, I think Cheryl`s talking about speechless terror, speechless terror, and by the way, a world that is so sexualized, I don`t know how the child can ever possibly fully recover.
KAREN SALMANSOHN, AUTHOR, "PRINCE HARMING SYNDROME": One of the things that I think needs to happen for the child to recover is to actually have a name change too, because it`s not only what happened to them, but now they`re on Google, you know? So, I think they have to have a name change is one of the things that they should do moving forward.
And also, I just can`t believe that woman would agree to such a thing before marriage. I mean, talk about a very strange prenup, you know.
And as a mom, you know, I can`t even imagine how you could do this. I`m a mom. You carry your child in your belly. You hear their heart beat and then to turn around and do this.
A home should be a sanctuary, not a torture chamber, you know? And to have both parents, usually you know, you have at least one out of two parents out there that could be around afterwards. And at this point, I really think there should be no visitation and if possible, mandatory sterilization because this is just totally egregious.
PINSKY: Judy, these, you know -- again we`re getting our barf bags out. You and I have dealt with patients that have been severely and ritualistically abused. In my experience, when kids come out of these severe abuse situations, their sense of self-is shattered. They can have something like a multiple personality disorder or dissociative order becomes a chronic problem and what I call the gift that keeps on giving because they never fully recover.
JUDY HO, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: That`s right, Dr. Drew.
And unfortunately, these children never even had a chance to develop any sense of self, never mind it being fractured. They just never had a chance to do so because their parents were supposed to protect them and teach them about the world has only taught them terrible things. These parents brought them to life intending to abuse them in a most horrific way that we can imagine.
And so, as for where these kids are going to go next, you know, certainly dissociative identity disorder, we see that from severe sexual abuse if that`s happened. There`s going to be a whole other myriad of things that we have to deal with these children. They need to be closely monitored and in treatment.
PINSKY: I`m actually -- I`ve had had enough. I`m actually -- enough. Like I can`t talk about this anymore. This is a story that officially --
PINSKY: Vile, disgusting all those great words. I`m depleted by it. I can`t go on with it.
So, we`re stopping right there. We`re going to talk next about the woman who they say was the motive for murder. There`s old Gypsy.
And, finally, our behavior bureau is going to take a look at the mistress at the center of the high profile case.
And later, a 7-year-old boy celebrating his birthday, check this out, he`s running after his dog, he runs out in front of a truck.
We will show you, oh, goodness, the driver keeps on going. We`ll tell you about that after the break.
PINSKY: All right, I`m back with co-host Jenny Hutt and our Behavior Bureau: Judy, Tiffanie, Cheryl and Karen.
Gypsy Willis, the ex-lover of the doctor on trial for murdering his beauty queen wife. He is accused of drowning her in the bathtub. Prosecutors say Gypsy herself is the motive for murder.
Nancy Grace has been all over this thing. She was covering it in depth. But ever since we first saw her there in that footage dodging reporters at the courthouse, we thought this is somebody we need the behavior bureau to dig into.
So, first, take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How did you meet?
GYPSY WILLIS, MURDER SUSPECT`S EX-LOVER: We met online.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did the relationship become sexual?
WILLIS: It did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When was that?
WILLIS: I think that was in January of 2006. I think we probably had sex half the time. I mean sometimes it was just lunch.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On April 14th -- the day of Michele`s funeral -- he, in fact, called you from his cell phone.
WILLIS: They are of me in a mirror, you know, exposing my back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is it exposing below your back, as well?
WILLIS: There`s one picture where it is a little bit suggestive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Showing your buttocks.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The two of you resumed your sexual relationship when you moved into the home as a nanny?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the two of you were hiding the fact that you were sexually involved from the children?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Al right. Let`s get into this.
Tiffanie, what do you make of this woman?
HENRY: Dr. Drew, there is a term in the Urban Dictionary and it is skeezer. I am not going to tell you exactly what that means. You can look it up for yourself.
PINSKY: I was hoping for a little more clinical sort of assessment but I`ll take what you got from the Urban Dictionary.
HENRY: No, that`s the clinical term. When you look it up, her face will be there.
PINSKY: Fair enough.
Judy, how about you, other than the dictionary, does the DSM 5 have got something to say besides the Urban Dictionary?
HO: Well, you know, she -- she is so completely narcissistic. I just can`t believe it. I mean, she`s so excited looking. She`s getting excited looking at those sexy pictures of herself.
Did you see that smirk and a little smile? It was ridiculous. She`s in the middle of a court case. Somebody was murdered and she`s saying oh, yes, I like that. I like it.
PINSKY: Yes, thank you, Judy. That`s the first frame. Who was that, Karen?
HUTT: It`s Jenny.
HUTT: She`s happy she won. She won. She got the goods. She got the prize.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What a prize.
HUTT: She`s thrilled that the wife is dead, ding dong the wife is dead. This is a sick woman.
PINSKY: Karen, let me go to you next. I saw smugness. I saw her sort of perpetrating a special relationship with the attorney like, oh, we know what`s in that picture and definitely a narcissistic posture. But my question is, does that narcissism lead all the way over to borderline just like Jodi Arias?
SALMANSOHN: I think this is more than narcissism. This is sociopath. This is a case of sociopaths in love.
Instead of opposites attracting, this is very similars attracting. These are both sociopaths. And I think also the fact that they`re both kind of, she`s like flipping her story around. She`s, you know, constantly changing.
She`s displaying -- I wrote a book called "Prince Harming Syndrome". And he`s a prince harming and she`s a princess harming. They`re both sociopaths.
PINSKY: Cheryl, they could be both sociopaths. I mean, I guess we could jump to that. There`s that kind of thing going.
But the only thing I see of the guy I keep hearing about, he seems bipolar to me, seems manic.
But what can see anything about a woman --
ARUTT: Definitely manic.
PINSKY: He has a manic quality, right. He seems manic to me at times.
ARUTT: Yes, like 30 texts the day of the funeral. Like 30 texts, that`s like manic texting.
PINSKY: Right. Manic, and, Cheryl --
ARUTT: I know teenagers who can send 30 texts in a hot minute and not be manic.
PINSKY: Well, but, Cheryl, what kind of a woman is -- anything we say about the profile of a woman that really has to be with a bipolar guy in a manic day, please?
OK, and here we go, because I have a feeling you`re going to want to say borderline. And I have to kind of --
PINSKY: I`m not sure. I`m not sure. No, I haven`t there yet.
I`m asking the question, is she borderline like Jodi?
ARUTT: Well, who -- but Jodi was also half what we`re talking about here.
PINSKY: Sociopath, psychopath.
ARUTT: I think, you know, a sociopath can have a lot of fun with a guy who`s really manic and out there, who`s going to say to hell with the law, to hell with the rules, I`m going to do whatever I want. I`m going to get one over on somebody.
This is a very sociopathic woman. She actually kept a picture of Michele in her closet telling her roommates, one has to know your enemies. She was plotting with this stuff right up there with him I think.
It really -- you know, she would not admit to any of these things she`s doing on the stand until she had a plea deal. And when they were interviewing her in prison, they would say, oh, are you still involved with this man? Oh, no, I learned my lesson. Martin and I are not involved.
And then, they`d say, well, aren`t these communications you and he have been exchanging saying you`re very much together?
ARUTT: Only when faced with proof would this woman cop to the truth, only if someone knew that already.
PINSKY: To your point, Tiffanie, Gypsy had gone to prison for identity fraud, made a fake ID to say she was his wife. She insinuated herself -- this is the hand that rocks the cradle a little bit. And she -- but you know all that sort of illegal behavior does kind of support what Cheryl`s saying, doesn`t it? And Karen said the same thing.
HENRY: It does, but doesn`t it feel like -- it felt like to me watching this that there`s still something going on, some kind of give and take with them. You know, she`s minimizing everything about the relationship, minimizing the engagement. Oh, we really weren`t in a relationship. Oh, that`s just my back. No, that`s your behind, sweetie.
HENRY: Like there`s so much she`s kind of downplaying that --
PINSKY: Is she sweetie or squeezer? Which was it? I`m sorry.
HUTT: Dr. Drew, I have a question. What happened, Dr. Drew, what happened to just having an affair? What happened to people just meeting and --
HUTT: And having an affair? Why are people murdering? What is going on with our society that it`s morphed into killings?
PINSKY: Haven`t we been here before? It feels familiar.
ARUTT: This woman wanted to cut Michele`s brakes and her roommates had to say hold on a second, the kids might be in the car. Don`t cut the brakes and like only then, heck, you know, the heck with Michele, but even endangering the children. People had to appeal to that. She still didn`t seem to really have a conscience.
PINSKY: All right. So consensus of this "Behavior Bureau," this is our first brush with Gypsy. So, let`s -- we`re building a case that she`s not like Jodi. She`s not borderline. She definitely has a narcissistic posture, but we`re thinking sociopath. Is that the consensus?
ARUTT: I think doable sociopath.
PINSKY: Double sociopath.
PINSKY: And by the way, let`s remember, let`s remind ourselves that sociopathy or psychopathy is a very strong biological element to it. She apparently has parents are sort of bewildered by her behavior. That would kind of fit with some of that, wouldn`t it? So, "Behavior" stays with me.
If you have questions for the "Bureau" or you`d like to make a comment, tweet us @DrDrewHLN #behaviorbureau.
Later, a little boy run over by a truck and the driver keeps on going. He`s still on the loose. We want your help. Don`t go away.
VINNIE POLITAN, HLN ANCHOR: Coming up top of the hour on "HLN After Dark," an extremely dramatic day inside that courtroom in Provo, Utah. Dr. MacNeill`s own daughters taking the stand against him. Our bold question for our in-studio jury tonight is, did the doctor destroy his own daughters? We`ve got 11 women and one man who will decide. Top of the hour, "HLN After Dark."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gypsy had a tendency to be overly obsessive with her relationships. She would sit and work and think and obsess on those relationships when she was brought into the home, Gypsy being brought into the home, that she just was totally, what was it, moon eyed or goo eyed or something at Dr. MacNeill. That is fairly typical.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That is gypsy`s parents, Jenny. My co-host, Jenny Hutt, and the "Behavior Bureau," of course. But Jenny, I want to give you a tweet here before we go to the "Behavior Bureau" again. It is from our own Danine Manette. She says "narcissist, sociopath, how about nasty skank hoe -- " she`s back in the urban dictionary, I think, with tiffany.
HUTT: Yes. I think she`s right on.
PINSKY: I want to show you another one, though. This is regarding Judy. This is from Brian. "Doctor needs to give you a full screen more often. Please, Judy Ho. @DrJudyHo." Judy, sorry to embarrass you, but there`s one of your fans insisting that we give you a full screen.
HUTT: She`s gorgeous.
PINSKY: Tiffanie Davis Henry, Cheryl Arutt, Judy Ho, and now joining us, body language expert, Blanca Cobb. We are talking about Gypsy Willis. That was her parents there in that interview on "HLN After Dark." She is the 34-year-old ex-lover of the doctor on trial for murdering his wife. Again, that was the parents about the daughter`s relationships.
Judy, that doesn`t -- does that really inform anything different than what we were always talking about except just that she -- I don`t know, defined herself, I guess, by what she could get from other people?
JUDY HO, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Absolutely. I mean, you know, she`s not really a good testament to what she`s, you know, what she`s all about because she lies on the stand all the time. And she`s clearly obsessing about the relationship yet denies it on the stand saying I don`t know if the ring was there when he proposed.
Oh, did he propose? I don`t remember when he proposed. I mean, come on. She was absolutely obsessive about this relationship with the picture of Michelle in her room and the staring googly eyed at him while she was supposed to be the nanny. I mean, come on. So, are we getting more information? Probably not.
HUTT: But Dr. Drew, Dr. Drew, here`s the thing. Again, I`m going to go back to this one thing and correct me if I`m wrong, guys. But I think women often get obsessive in relationships. Women get googly eyed. I think, women can get kooky.
HENRY: But you know what, Jenny, I think this happens a lot when the relationship is one-sided or there`s this power differential in a relationship. He was like the guy that was powerful. He was spending the cash. He caked her up. You know, she was -- she kind of owed him a little bit.
PINSKY: Let`s also contextualize this, Jenny. This is her father who is a physician assessing his daughter who`s on the stand after having been convicted of a various crimes trying to understand what`s going on. It`s not like oh, my 19-year-old or my 18-year-old is a little too into the boys. This is not that. This is not that.
This is a 32-year-old. Now, I want you all, Blanca, you`re going to do some body language analysis for us. Look at the video of Gypsy in court, grinning as she talks about being a negligent baby-sitter and the sexy text messages that she exchanged. You see her here? There is what we call inappropriate smiling. What is all that about, do you think, Blanca?
BLANCA COBB, BODY LANGUAGE EXPERT: Dr. Drew, that is about what we called duping delight. This is where you have inappropriate smiles during times when it doesn`t require a smile. So, what`s funny about not taking care of children appropriately? In my opinion, there`s nothing funny about that.
A lot of times it`s almost like whoever does this duping delight is like nanny, nanny boo-boo, I know something you don`t know. It`s like they`re teasing you a little bit and they feel good about it. Why? Because they`re duping you. They`re schooling you. They know a little more than what you know, and they get this high. They just feel better about it.
PINSKY: And that`s in the context I imagine Cheryl of sociopathy, right, because an average person wouldn`t do that.
ARUTT: Absolutely. and Blanca, do you think that this duping delight that this kind you going right up to kind of dangling it under people`s noses like walking up at the temple saying hi, I hear you need a nanny or her accompanying the doctor to people`s houses as the nanny, like all of these things like right under people`s noses. Do you think that`s an even bigger high to be able to go, you know --
PINSKY: Yes. I think you`re right, Cheryl.
ARUTT: -- information for military I.D.s, all those things?
PINSKY: Blanca, what do you say?
COBB: I agree with Cheryl. I agree with you.
ARUTT: She has the best teacher in the world to do that.
COBB (ph): -- about what you know and what they don`t know.
PINSKY: Yes. Tiffanie --
HENRY: Yes. She had the best teacher in the word to do that, though. If anybody was going to be her mentor in the duping delight, it was going to be Martin MacNeill, right?
PINSKY: Oh. So, you think they were colluding?
PINSKY: So, that`s a new -- we`re taking this to a new place now. So, Judy, do you agree with that that they colluded together on all of this?
HO: I do. I mean, I feel like the tracks are there. The breadcrumbs are there that this was a plan that they hatched together over time. And I think it kind of started piecing together bit by bit. I don`t think it was all at one time, but, you know, they kept escalating each other, and they both thought they could get away with it. He`s feeding her narcissism. She`s feeding his narcissism. And it just keeps going until boom, somebody dies.
PINSKY: And then Tiffanie, I want to go back to Danine`s comment at the opening just to get your read on her assessment. Nasty skank hoe? Is that --
HENRY: I would never disagree with anything that Danine says.
HENRY: She is the most brilliant, most smartest woman I know.
PINSKY: All right, guys. We`re joking around about something that is not funny. But it`s heartless and after the step -- I`ve had to make this apology on the show many times when our show goes into territory that`s like we`re bringing the Pepto-Bismol our and our barf bags. It`s rough. So, if we can`t use a little bit of humor here and there, we`re not going to be able to survive and get through a program.
So, sociopath colluding with a sociopathic manic partner, that`s our running assessment. Thank you, guys.
Next, it`s every parent`s nightmare. A child runs into the street right in front of a speeding truck. The truck didn`t even slow down. He just kept going. And we need your help identifying the drive of that truck. We`ll be back to talk about this after the break.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. A Texas boy celebrating his seventh birthday. It`s his birthday. He`s playing chase with the family dog when he`s hit by a hit and run driver. Surveillance video captured the audience. The boy, I want to tell you, we`ve been showing this video, the boy survives. He has relatively minor injuries. But when you see this accident, you`re not going to believe that that`s true. It is.
So here we go, he`s playing catch, playing chase with his dog. He throws something, runs to hide away from the animal and this guy, take a good look at that truck. We want people if they know who that is -- yes -- rolls right over him. He`s in the lower right-hand corner over there.
HUTT: Oh, my God!
PINSKY: The family dog then comes to assess this poor child who`s lying unconscious in the street. This guy with the truck rolls over him and keeps on moving. Mark, help me out with this.
MARK EIGLARSH, SPEAKTOMARK.COM: What`s there to help? This guy needs to be found. You know? I have a seven-year-old who also puts his hair up the same way this kid does, who also plays in our front yard. The ball goes out. We have a dog. That could be my kid. Now, it`s going to be very difficult to prove who was the driver, see.
The difference is, you know, knowing who the truck owner is and finding who the driver was, you can`t necessarily assume they`re the same. I do a lot of defense of these types of cases. Somehow, they`ve got to get the guy who owns the truck to admit he was behind the wheel or else it`s going to be difficult to prove he was the driver at the time.
PINSKY: Dean, you`re nodding yes. You`re an attorney.
DEAN OBEIDALLAH, CNN.COM & THE DAILY BEAST CONTRIBUTOR: Yes.
PINSKY: People don`t feel an obligation to -- they can live with that kind of guilt?
OBEIDALLAH: That`s a bigger question, but I think in reality, this is getting a lot of great media coverage. It happened in Texas. It even aired on Fox News which I think is mandatory by law. You have to watch in Texas. So, I`m sure everyone down there has seen it by now. And the question is how come relatives or families members have not come forward.
It`s a distinct-looking truck. And let`s be honest, though, if he would have stopped, I think he had a great argument that he was not at fault at all. The kid darted out in the middle of the street, didn`t look either way. But the crime is that the man fled. And that violates Texas law. They just amended the law in September, made it even more severe -- even more penalties over there. No one else has come forward to say I know who owns that truck is.
PINSKY: Dean makes a great point. Why not just stop -- I didn`t see him. This is awful. I`m trying to help the kid.
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, ATTORNEY: Well, don`t you first have to know that you hit someone before you stop and say I`m sorry, I hit someone? Look, I watch this tape a few times, Dr. Drew. This is a big truck. There`s a huge trailer. You`re looking at it right now attached to this car. This kid darts out from behind another car. It looks like almost like he`s running into the side of the truck.
I doubt that driver even knew he hit this little poor kid, 50-pound kid. It`s unfortunate. Thank God it wasn`t worse, Dr. Drew. But maybe instead of trying to search for this driver, the parents should be questioning the parents and saying why were you leaving this little seven- year-old --
LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST: Kids should not be out there by themselves. It`s a seven-year-old. If a seven-year-old can`t play out there by themselves, I don`t know. And also, I have a big SUV. I run over a pop can and I can feel it. You are going to feel if you hit a 50-pound kid and -- you can`t make that argument that you did not feel running over a child.
It`s broad daylight. It`s not in the middle of the night. That`s a very difficult argument to make.
PINSKY: Mark, take me home.
EIGLARSH: OK. Anahita makes a good point if she`s defending the guy. Great argument. It comes in second place, however. You`re going to know. And also, this is now the biggest story for four days. Either the guy has already seen it or people have told him. It then gives the inference that he knew at the time and he`s still burying his head in the sand (ph) like a coward.
PINSKY: Yes. I like it.
SEDAGHATFAR: That doesn`t make him liable though.
PINSKY: Back after this. Hold on, guys. Panel, stop. Be right back.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt, and our panel. A Texas boy is recovering, had some broken bones and a concussion after being struck by a hit and run driver on his seventh birthday.
Surveillance cameras caught this graphic video of him playing with the family dog. Then, apparently, running to hide from him, it looks like, and then being struck by this guy in this whatever this is, this four-door truck and then the run over. The dog sadly, this is the poignant part of this video, the dog going over to check on his little friend.
HUTT: So sweet.
PINSKY: The driver faces charges of failure to stop, failure to render aid, and abandoning a child. He is still on the loose. Mark, you said I believe I just heard you say you`ve defended cases like this. Let me rather than attacking you, let me just ask, what motivates these guys to flee?
EIGLARSH: Well, top of the list a lot of times other than panic is let`s talk about the criminal offenses. Let`s say hypothetically he was DUI. The penalties for sticking around are much greater normally in most states than if he takes off. That`s number one. Number two, suspended license, sheer and utter panic potentially, and some people are just morally bankrupt.
I mean, who knowing that they hit someone would just take off and then not come back or four days lit later when it`s the biggest story on the news not to say, you know, it was me? That`s it. It`s just horrible.
PINSKY: Lynn, you`re nodding your head. Lynn?
BERRY: I think I say that -- I`m nodding my head because it`s all about accountability and I think that`s something in our society that we`ve really lost. And then, we criticize people that take accountability. Look at Matthew Cordle. He puts this video online saying I did this. I should go to jail and I will face the full extent of the law and then we all sit here and we say he just did it to get a lesser sentence.
PINSKY: He did.
BERRY: I disagree with that. I think he actually did it because he wants to be the poster child and he wants to get out --
PINSKY: He should have been talking about recovery then and his disorder rather than mea culpa. He missed the point.
BERRY: I think if there was one person that didn`t drink and drive that weekend --
BERRY: We can disagree about that, but I think accountability is something that has been lost in this society because we all think we can get away -- yes, exactly. And I think that that`s an example of this.
PINSKY: Anahita, I`m running out of time, so don`t say anything too provocative please.
PINSKY: Don`t drop a bomb on me now.
SEDAGHATFAR: I just can`t help it. But Lynn makes a great point. Accountability. Why is it that everyone on the panel gets so upset when I mention that, you know, what about the parents here? Where`s their responsibility. Of course, no one wants this to happen to a small child. Accidents happen. But at the same time, a seven-year-old boy should probably know better. Where were the parents? Why wasn`t he supervised?
PINSKY: Dean, finish this off.
EIGLARSH: Seven-year-olds run into the street every now and then. They just do. No matter how much you train them.
OBEIDALLAH: I have to say one thing. What Mark said, I think, is exactly on point. He probably has prior -- he maybe has an outstanding arrest warrant out for him, maybe an immigration issue, maybe it`s driver`s license, maybe on insurance, uninsured. And I think that`s the reason he`s not coming forward or she, we keep saying he.
SEDAGHATFAR: Or maybe he didn`t know he hit the kid.
HUTT: No way.
PINSKY: "Last Call" coming up next.
PINSKY: Time for the "Last Call." Jenny Hutt, it goes to you.
HUTT: Yes. I just need to go home and take a shower because after these stories, Dr. Drew, I need to wash, I need to clean.
PINSKY: And yet, I`m hoping that by talking about these things, we decrease the probability that these things will happen elsewhere and as we said earlier in the show, if you see something, you`ll say something. You`ll understand that these things have signs that you might recognize next time and maybe we made a good point, at least, the last panel did about accountability. I don`t know, maybe falling on deaf ears.
We`ve got to go. Thank you, Jenny. "HLN After Dark" begins right now.