Return to Transcripts main page
Inside Mind of Shooting Suspect
Aired November 4, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, the LAX shooting suspect. Someone that knows him calls him socially awkward, says he plotted his crime, enlisted his unsuspecting roommate.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: and said, "Oh, I just dropped off Paul at LAX, he had to go home.
PINSKY: Is he mentally ill? We`ll hear from the person who, in fact, may know.
Plus, cliff bride says she accidentally pushed her new husband to his death. Have those words come back to haunt her? My behavior bureau reacts to her just released comments.
And losing it over luggage. Can you relate?
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening, everyone.
My co-host is Sirius XM Radio host and attorney, Jenny Hutt.
Kanye West is embracing -- get this -- the Confederate flag none other, Jenny, than Ms. Ali will be here for a spirited talk.
JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: Oh, yes. Good.
PINSKY: Yes, good indeed.
So, but first -- the LAX shooting suspect. Did he have a grudge, is he mentally ill, why did he allegedly target and kill a TSA employee. Take a look at this.
REPORTER: Alleged gunman entered terminal Los Angeles International Airport`s terminal 3 Friday morning, armed with an assault rifle and five magazines of ammunition.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He saw me cowering there. He had his gun and looked at me, and he said, TSA? I shook my head and he kept going.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People were running. People were getting knocked down. And there was luggage everywhere and mayhem.
REPORTER: You can see his path as he wound through the terminal, making his way to the gate area.
REPORTER: CNN affiliate KCAL/KCBS shot this exclusive video showing what appears to be the suspect handcuffed to a gurney. Law enforcement officials are now looking to a rant Ciancia had on him. It referred to a new world order.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He made a conscious decision to kill multiple TSA employees. He wanted to, quote, "instill fear into their traitorous minds."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I looked the escalator and I saw the gunman. He had his gun on the guy on the wall, and he shot him twice.
PINSKY: CNN`s Stephanie Elam joins us from LAX. What`s the latest, Stephanie?
STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Dr. Drew, we are learning it is a matter of less than an hour, that police might have been able to thwart this attack of the alleged shooter Paul Ciancia. They got a tip from his family after they reportedly got text messages from Ciancia earlier in the where they believed he was going to commit suicide. They called their local police.
The local police then called the police in L.A. They went to check on him, but it was already after the shooting had started at LAX. If they had gotten to the place earlier, maybe they could have stopped this.
We are also learning that in light of the shooting now, another interesting development here, that some of the TSA agents, the authorities, the union for them, thinking maybe they need to have some group of them have weapons on them, and be allowed to also arrest people because they say they encounter all sorts of people like this all the time and they need more security on that angle.
As far as the people that were injured in the shooting, I can tell you now that two of the TSA officers who were shot were treated and released. As for the civilian passenger who was traveling, who was shot in the leg, he has been upgraded to good condition, but continues to remain in the hospital, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Thanks so much, Stephanie.
Joining us to discuss, Mark Eiglarsh, attorney from speaktomark.com, Lynn Berry, HLN, anchor, Areva Martin, and Dean Obeidallah, CNN.com and "Daily Beast" contributor.
All right, guys. Now, what do we do with this? Should people, should TSA officers be carrying guns? They`re having as Stephanie said to deal with things like this all the time. It`s hard to imagine that. But I imagine with the public that`s a significant issue.
And what about the rest of us, we have to live in paranoid fear. Lynn, should we?
LYNN BERRY, HLN ANCHOR: Well, that`s the big question. What is causing this? We can read the warning signs. They actually called police.
And you talk about this all the time, Dr. Drew, that we should know before the fact that something is wrong an act on it. But in this case, someone did. They just didn`t get there soon enough.
My bigger point is that if someone is sick, they`re going to do sick things. Why are there so many more sick people there that are going out, especially in violent manner, especially with guns, and doing these types of things?
PINSKY: Well, Lynn --
BERRY: I go to things where there`s a disconnect between humans I think now because of a variety of reasons.
PINSKY: Well, what are your theories?
BERRY: I think social media. I think when you take -- I have said this from the beginning, I know people are going to get upset about this, video games are extraordinarily violent.
BERRY: Let me use the word not video games but games that are so incredibly violent where you spend hours in your basement and have no human interaction and you`re shooting up things.
HUTT: Why does it have to be a basement, (a), and (b), I feel like it`s not every kid that`s a gamer turns out to be a murderer.
PINSKY: All right. Areva?
BERRY: You`re absolutely right.
AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: It is a really simple point we`re missing. Get the assault rifles off the street. If you`re not in the military, if you`re not a police officer, why do you have an assault rifle? Why do you have hundreds and hundreds of rounds of ammunition?
This is really plain and simple. We`ve got to deal with this. Get these rifles off the streets, out of the hands of folks like this guy in Colorado, in Connecticut, and now at the L.A. airport.
PINSKY: All right. Two other TSA officers were wounded. Stephanie told us. One of them spoke to the media just a short time ago. I want to show you that tape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was injured helping an elder man try to get to a safe area. I turned around and there was a gunman that shot me twice. Got to the area where the planes were at. People were coming toward me, asking me were you shot, what`s going on. I was like -- I couldn`t -- all I could think about was, you know, helping them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, this guy had a handwritten note on him where he called himself a quote, "pissed off patriot."
Dean, though, you want to call him a terrorist.
DEAN OBEIDALLAH, DAILY BEAST: Yes, I do, honestly. The evidence could change, but right now, the man had a letter, pissed off terrorist. He wanted to instill fear. He wanted to kill TSA officers. He ranted about the department of -- Secretary of Homeland Security Janet Napolitano, the former head of it. He went in there in fatigues, and with hundreds of round of ammunition. He had a political grievance. He said the TSA invaded his constitutional rights. And he wanted that policy to change.
To me, he is a political terrorist. Unless something changes, that`s what he should be charged with, not just murder.
PINSKY: And the suspect`s family has issued a statement now, expressing condolences and apologizing. They said, quote, "We continue to care for and love Paul and will support him in this difficult time. We hope the public will understand this is a difficult time for our family as well."
Mark, is the family also a victim here or are people going to be so angry with this guy, they want to blame the family as well?
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Well, Mark Eiglarsh thinks the family is a victim. I think that when they finally realize there was some trouble in what he was texting, what he was putting out there, he immediately called law enforcement.
What I`m a little bothered by is why it took law enforcement some -- I don`t know why there were some delays in them getting there, literally by 45 minutes they missed this guy. Had they confronted him, I think there probably would have been a different outcome.
But I feel for the family. They didn`t make this, you know. They didn`t create this. They`re victimized, too.
HUTT: Of course they didn`t create it, of course they`re victimized, they should have known something was wrong with him prior to 45 minutes before he went and shot the TSA officers.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Dean.
HUTT: That`s my thing, yeah.
EIGLARSH: Really, Jen? You have hardcore facts to show they knew this guy was going to do what he did, really, you`re going there?
HUTT: I am not saying they have hardcore facts they knew he would do it before he did it, I am saying they knew something was wrong with him. We talked about this repeatedly on the show, there`s some obligation to deal with our children and our family members and figure out what`s wrong and find a way to help them.
OBEIDALLAH: Yes, the one thing is when you have concerns about someone in your family, a loved one, officer, brother -- first thing you do is not call the police, you call that person, or neighbors, relatives, unless there`s a (NAUDIBLE) there we don`t know about. That`s what I wonder.
Are we missing information? Not just a text of history of suicide. Was there a history of threats? Of wanting to kill himself?
Or something else we don`t know about that. And I`m waiting for that information to come out to make a decision, did the family wait too long, like Jenny is saying, or is it a random act?
PINSKY: Dean, we`re going to get into it. We have some stuff we`re going to get into the behavior bureau and see if we can speculate about that.
I want to take it back where we started from. Lynn was saying why all this stuff, why all this violence all of a sudden? You heard me say this how long ago. I said --
HUTT: A long time.
PINSKY: Four months ago?
PINSKY: There`s a couple of things, Lynn. You can blame the -- Areva, you can blame the guns, you can blame the video games. But I`ll tell you what, we have destroyed families, we have a lot of child abuse of various types, people are coming out of these childhoods with a lot of unregulated aggression, and we have leaders right now who are at odds with one another.
I tell you what, in a political system where like a family, Lynn, I don`t know if you agree with me or not, just like a family where parents are fighting, it`s the most vulnerable children start to act out. Lynn, what do you think of that theory?
BERRY: Dr. Drew, I completely agree with you, but combine that with certain things that completely desensitize us to other humans.
PINSKY: Well, I get you.
BERRY: So combine that with an outlet that is detaching us from other human beings, everyone is on the phone all the time. Everybody is -- combine that what you`re talking about --
PINSKY: I think it`s taking the vulnerable and make them more vulnerable. But let`s get into the behavior bureau.
So, thank you, panel. We`re going to go and bring in the behavior bureau. Look at the suspect`s mental state and his history.
And later, the newly wed bride who has now admitted she pushed her groom off a cliff. We have new information about how far she went to try to cover up his death.
We`ll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Ciancia sent his family in New Jersey rambling text messages. A woman who says she knows him says Ciancia said he was going to commit suicide. The family alerted authorities who then asked LAPD to do a welfare check.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That morning, yes, he doesn`t knock, just opens the door and says, "I need to leave. Can you take me now?"
At that moment they`re seeing this on the TV, their third roommate comes back, and said, "Oh, I just dropped off Paul at LAX, he had to go home." They just knew. I think that you just dropped off Paul to a shooting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host Jenny Hutt. We`re discussing the shooting at LAX and the man accused of killing TSA officer and terrifying hundreds of others.
And, Jenny, Mark said something about there being a time lag after welfare check before the police arrived.
PINSKY: Stephanie Elam just straightened it up for us and said it was actually six minutes after the welfare check call the police showed up, but it was just too late.
PINSKY: So, the whole thing is frustrating, though, because we have been talking about this. We`ve about talking about the impact our leaders are having on the most vulnerable amongst us.
PINSKY: I`m talking about if you see something, say something. I`ve been talking about keeping guns away for individuals who have vulnerabilities. I`ve been saying this.
HUTT: Yes, you have.
PINSKY: But yet, what?
HUTT: And nothing has happened, other than the (INAUDIBLE)
But, Dr. Drew, I just want to go back to a point Lynn was making before about how we are isolated and we`re playing video games and social media, nobody is talking. I think as society we increasingly do these sort of isolating behaviors. And if that`s the case, we need to adapt, find a new and better way to deal with one another when we have face time so that these things don`t happen.
If your kid is into video games, talk about the fact it is a game and not to shoot people.
PINSKY: Let`s bring in the behavior bureau.
Cheryl Arutt, clinical and forensic psychologist, Jennifer Keitt, life coach, Samantha Schacher, host of "Pop Trigger" in the Young Turks Network, and Tiffanie Davis Henry, psychotherapist and HLN contributor.
Paul Ciancia was carrying a note that said he wanted to kill TSA agents to instill fear.
Now, in this interview, exclusive interview with CNN, his friend says Ciancia was angry about government spying. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Did he ever express any hatred toward the government or toward TSA?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All the NSA findings that came out this year, he was very upset about it. He also thought that TSA abused their power.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. How we can understand this, behavior better?
I`m going to start with you, Tiffanie. I`ll give you one word -- paranoia.
TIFFANIE DAVIS HENRY, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, and that`s a really good one. Like Dr. Drew, many of us go through airports all the time. I was in the airport four times last week. You know, I might have been annoyed with the TSA process, but didn`t feel I needed to harm somebody, or shoot up the airport. That`s really not how we deal.
So, it does leave -- the question is, you know, what causes someone to do something like that because this is a normal, everyday occurrence for many travelers, and so there has to be something else. So whether that --
HENRY: You know, he is socially awkward, so that gets me in the mind of Asperger`s syndrome.
HENRY: But also if he wrote a suicide note or the family was thinking, OK, he might harm himself, he went there with no armor underneath, no bulletproof vest. He went to shoot up the airport. It makes me think, maybe, suicide by cop and he`s going there to be killed.
PINSKY: Absolutely. May have had two sort of priorities, one was acting out his paranoia, the other is actually active suicidal ideation.
Tiffanie, you mention him being peculiar perhaps socially, but he graduated from all boys Catholic high school in 2008. Here is how some of the classmates at that high school described him back then. This may give us a little evidence about what type Tiffanie is talking about.
Awkward, never fit in. In four years he never talked, he was extremely quiet, often ate lunch alone. Classmates could not recall him having one close friend.
Cheryl, paranoid, isolated socially, actively suicidal. Do you agree with all that?
CHERYL ARUTT, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: I do agree with all that. It makes me so sad that things get to this level, there are so many people who seem to be snapping and acting out in this way, and people did the right thing, but not soon enough, unfortunately, in this case.
PINSKY: Jennifer, you`re nodding your head.
JENNIFER KEITT, LIFE COACH: Dr. Drew, I`ve got an interesting thought. It`s really concerning me that a lot of the people we`re talking about are in the 20 something range. And I guess I am beginning to wonder what is happening? Are we not developing? Are we not getting to that point where used to be back in the day you think you get to 18 --
KEITT: -- you graduate.
PINSKY: I think you`re onto something.
KEITT: High five.
PINSKY: Well, high five. But I think people are going to be intrigued by specifically the way I interpret Jennifer`s little twist.
I want to go to Sam about this. And that is, I think that you`re right, it is in the 20-somethings, that`s when major mental illness emerged. But back in the day, hang on, back in the day, Sam, people lived separately, and guess what, other adults would kick in and go you need help now.
Now, people are living in the home with their parents who protect them and say I don`t want to look at my kid having an illness, I am going to continue to cod he will them and not get them help because I don`t believe the child has mental illness. What do you say, Sam?
SAM SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: I think you hit the nail on the head, Dr. Drew. And I think also, we touched upon it earlier. With teens today, there is a disconnect, and there is a desensitization to violence. I mean, more -- we`re not -- we are more comfortable --
PINSKY: No, Sam, no, I don`t want to go there. I don`t want to go there, that`s what we can`t do anything about. This is something you can do something about.
SCHACHER: I think Jenny made a valid point we need to catch up to the times and we do need to figure out how to deal with social media and with people hiding behind the Internet, with people not having human touch and human interaction because it is --
PINSKY: That`s an easy target. But how about if you -- let`s say we already have that. Jen you want to adjust, parents need to go maybe there`s mental illness in the child, maybe the social media makes it more likely they act it out. So, we need to make sure we take the kid to a mental health professional.
HUTT: I refuse to believe all parents that have 20-somethings living with them are overlooking symptoms and they`re turning a blind eye to all of it.
HUTT: I don`t believe it is all of them.
PINSKY: It`s not all of it, it`s enough to have kids out there, and then when we have systems in place that don`t protect the community but protect individual rights, they`re entitled to be crazy, who are we to say? They can have a gun, what`s the big deal?
And then the parents -- go ahead.
ARUTT: I`m sorry, but there were three other 20-something -- here is somebody that`s socially isolated, still had three other young adults living in the home with him who maybe noticed something, who maybe could have noticed something, too. This was not somebody who was all by himself and I do think that Sam had a point about social media in the sense that when people are interacting with a computer, people who do have socially disconnected problems don`t have an opportunity to have that face to face human interaction and learn the social skills so they can develop.
KEITT: Yes, but that`s the point. You`ve got this 20-somethings living together, right, then you couple that with the fact that they`re not connecting, they`re not having those heart to hearts, then you`ve got a family that`s all the way across the other side of the country who is not in that space and that place with that person. I think it is a recipe for disaster.
We are reporting time and time again on people who are 20 to 30 years old who are committing some heinous crimes and I think we think they`re adults and they`re not. They`re absolutely not.
PINSKY: Sam, finish up.
SCHACHER: It`s too prevalent. And there is a desensitization to violence, Dr. Drew. People are more comfortable with violence than sex.
HUTT: Not me.
PINSKY: Let`s remind ourselves, people have been saying that about Hollywood for decades. And yet that didn`t seem to --
SCHACHER: You can watch a beheading on YouTube. That`s the difference. Not sex.
HUTT: Sex is much better for kids to watch.
PINSKY: Do all agree sex better than violence? I think -- let`s just end with that nice thought.
OK. Here we go. Listen, thank you, panel.
Next, they were married just eight days, when she -- speaking of sex and violence, she pushed him off a cliff eight days after being married. They were having marital troubles, eight days into it. I mean, come on.
And later, a woman trying to cram the bag into the overhead bin goes ballistic, and it`s all caught on video. You will see the meltdown and the aftermath, after this.
PINSKY: Welcome back. I`m here with my co-host Jenny Hutt.
Before we go to our panel on a new story, I want to put up a tweet from Emily Benson. Jenny, look at this. She says, "DrDrewHLN is nailing it about 20-year-olds and mental illness with parents protecting them, #onpoint."
The #onpoint is especially effective --
HUTT: The hashtag is a thing people use, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Thank you, Jenny. Thank you for that. I know what hashtag is.
HUTT: Listen, I think sometimes parents protect their kids to a fault definitely.
PINSKY: You would never do that.
PINKSY: I ask your kid if he needed a weapon.
HUTT: No, what I did was my kid plays video games, and did one day say to him, honey, you`re not planning on shooting anybody, right, when you grow up? But he is not. He is normally fine.
I just think that sometimes parents --
PINSKY: If he were to shoot anybody, would not have anything to do with video games, it would be --
HUTT: Oh, stop it.
PINSKY: OK, let`s go on to the next story.
Jordan Graham, the newlywed bride who pushed her husband off the cliff after just days -- eight days after their wedding. She is facing a murder charge. She claims it was an accident, but the court documents reveal that she may have wanted him dead or at a certain moment wanted him dead, and went to great lengths afterwards to cover it up.
Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Jordan, did you kill Cody? Did you mean to push your husband off a cliff, Jordan?
REPORTER: Jordan Graham says she was hiking with her new husband Cody Johnston, they stopped reportedly near a stump and some rocks.
REPORTER: There was a grabbing incident, which was all in one motion, the grabbing and pushing. She finally confessed to pushing him in the back, face first off the cliff.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She could have walked away, but she was angry, so she threw hubby off the cliff.
REPORTER: A woman that told multiple lies to investigators, to friends, to family.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He didn`t deserve whatever end she gave him.
REPORTER: Providing false statements and lying to authorities when Johnson went missing. She created a fake e-mail account and wrote e-mails to herself that fabricate a bogus story about her husband`s death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How in the world could she not call the authorities?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And now we have a new standard. If I don`t like my husband, I am going to throw him off the cliff.
PINSKY: That`s Crystal`s standard.
Anyway, back with us, Mark, Lynn, Areva, and Dean.
And here is how Jordan says it all went down. They had an argument. I will show you animation here, I am using that term generously. Not something we use in a court room, or court of law.
Grabs his arm, he turns away and then she pushes him sort of out of anger and impulse. Let`s look at this again. They get in a fight, he grabs her arm, he turns away. And she in sort of an impulse to kind of out of anger, not to kill him allegedly. But couldn`t she see there was a cliff there?
HUTT: Trying not to kill him. Dr. Drew, you push someone off the cliff, you`re going to kill him.
PINSKY: Lynn, do you buy this?
BERRY: It`s not what she did at the cliff, it is what she did moments after. If you push someone out of anger or push someone accidentally, you go and you run and tell police and freak out, right?
That`s not what she did. It is the cover-up that`s worse than the crime. Initially, she told police that he had left with a friend in the car. Then, this e-mail.
So, the new court documents --
PINSKY: Yes, we`ll show the email. This is the e-mail to backup the story that Cody had gone out of town. She wrote this bogus e-mail to herself using a fake name Tony.
Here it is, quote, "Cody got out of the car, went for a hike, and they`re positive he fell and he is dead, Jordan. I don`t know who the guys were but they took off. Call off the missing person report. Cody is gone for sure. Tony."
Mark Eiglarsh, there`s two sort of -- what do you call it, call it consciousness of guilt?
HUTT: A tell.
PINSKY: And I wonder if the reason she was wanting time to pass after she pushed him off the cliff was to be sure he was dead. I mean, it`s really kind of weird, to be sure he was dead so he couldn`t come up and describe what really happened.
EIGLARSH: That`s very possible. I don`t like to get into this woman`s head. I do want to talk about the cliff though.
PINSKY: Yes, the animation, it was so vivid.
EIGLARSH: Well, the animation, I thought that was kind of silly. It looked like she didn`t like the blue man group if you look the animation --
PINSKY: How dare you, Mark Eiglarsh? How dare you?
HUTT: It was brilliant.
MARTIN: Dr. Drew, can I say something?
EIGLARSH: Let me say this -- well, let me finish my thought. I agree with Lynn, it has everything to do with the aftermath which shows that this wasn`t an accident. It clearly shows her consciousness of guilt, that`s what we were talking about.
However, it really is all about what happened up there because that`s what prosecutors have to prove, if he grabbed her. And if she pushes him in response, and if she can make the argument that he then without the intent of killing him, he stumbles backwards and then he falls, she could avoid -- she could possibly avoid being held responsible for a murder.
PINSKY: OK, Areva, go ahead.
MARTIN: You know, Dr. Drew, I`m going to take off my lawyer hat for a minute and just say some of this is plain stupidity. You know, we have been talking about mental health issues. But I don`t want to confuse people who have serious mental health issues, from people who are just acting in the most ridiculous way possible. You push your husband because you don`t want to be married after like an eight-day marriage?
You know, I`m sitting here with 20 years under my belt. And I`m thinking, my husband does a lot of things that irritate me to death, but murdering him has never been an option. So, we got to talk about stupidity and we have to talk about mental health and they are very different.
HUTT: Yes. I would also have to say and I`d like to say, Lynn, before you said the cover-up was worse than the crime, how is that possible? He`s dead because of the crime. I think it can`t really get worse than that.
BERRY: For her as far as what`s going to put her behind bars, what`s going to convict her is going to be what she did in the days after, because if she`s going for the argument that she was abused, that he stumbled, whatever story she could have come up with in the hours afterward, could have gone straight to police, you know, my gosh, there was a huge accident on the cliff.
But no, she came up with initial story. She didn`t change it again. And it was days later once police started putting the pieces together and saying her stories not adding add up, and by the way, it`s changing.
PINSKY: And Dean, I want to get your thoughts on this, too, but I think it also it sort of wrap up here. We got to stand together as husbands. I think Areva was making the case that after 20 years it`s OK -- just but not after eight days.
HUTT: She`s right. She`s totally right.
MARTIN: Not act on it, Dr. Drew. Not act on it ever.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Dean.
OBEIDALLAH: She`s making Jodi Arias look like Mother Teresa. This is unbelievable this history that what she`s done (ph). I love it she said she wanted to keep the cops out of it. You know what, most criminals want to keep the cops out of it.
OBEIDALLAH: Of course, you want to keep the cops out of it. Her story is incredible. You wrote this in a script, you`d be like come on, this cannot happen.
PINSKY: Too much.
OBEIDALLAH: So, I hope she`s convicted.
PINSKY: All right. Guys, I think we all kind of agree on this one. Next up, the "Behavior Bureau" is going to take a look at this honeymoon gone horribly wrong.
And later, get this, Kanye West is speaking out and defending his selection of the confederate flag on his -- you see it there. Something he`s going to put on some of his merchandise. I had to reach out to Miss Ali to get her thoughts on this, so she will be joining us to discuss with the panel. Do not go away.
VINNIE POLITAN, HLN ANCHOR: Coming up top of the hour on "HLN After Dark," you know, there`s a whole bunch of evidence that the jury in Utah is not going to see, Ryan.
RYAN SMITH, HLN ANCHOR: That`s right. And that`s why tonight`s bold question is, does excluded evidence prove the doctor killed his wife? That`s why all these guys are wearing blindfolds, but they`re going to be taking off --
POLITAN: We`re going to take those blindfolds off our jury so they can see all the evidence after dark.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEVI BLASDEL, INTRODUCED JORDAN TO CODY: Cody seemed to be putting forth 110 percent towards this relationship. She just kind of seemed like she just wasn`t putting in the effort.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s hard for him to hold her hand, and you know, she wouldn`t kiss him in public.
BLASDEL: She was always surrounded by children, always. All her friends were always quite a bit younger than us. She just wasn`t comfortable with communicating with adults or with people her own age. Days after she pushed him, she`s on her Facebook, you know, out messing around with the kids and saying, you know, life is great.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt, and we`re talking about the bride married for just eight days before she goes ahead and thinks a great idea to push her husband off the cliff.
HUTT: Right, because an annulment wasn`t enough --
PINSKY: No, I`ve got to kill him. Claims it was an accident, went to great lengths to cover it up, and now it appears she may have, quote, "married a man she was not in love with."
HUTT: She didn`t want to lose the deposit, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: On the ring or on the --
HUTT: Yes, on the wedding. Couldn`t cancel it.
PINSKY: "Behavior Bureau" is back. I`ve got Cheryl, Jennifer, Samantha, and Tiffanie. Tiffanie, do you think this was an accident? What are your thoughts?
TIFFANIE DAVIS HENRY, PH.D., PSYCHOTHERAPIST: I don`t -- you know what, I don`t think it was an accident, but I think she was very purposeful and very calculating in the way that she tried to cover it up.
HENRY: I have to agree with Areva from the last segment, I think this is a diff -- this is somewhere in between a lack of maturity and utter ridiculousness.
HENRY: I don`t think there`s mental illness or mental health concern going on here, but it`s just a bit much. You know, there are so many ways that you can get out of it. And then, where were her friends, Dr. Drew? This is my problem. If this girl was sobbing at the altar and couldn`t look her husband in the eye, her future husband in the eye, did nobody in that place say, you know what, maybe I shouldn`t get married?
HENRY: Maybe this ain`t the best idea.
PINSKY: I was blaming parents a little while ago. Now, I`m starting to think that 20 something friends are really the problem here. Sam, you had a reaction.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. Well, we don`t know the friends didn`t approach Cody and talk to him about it. I mean, we always hear about this after the fact, but Tiffanie has a very valid point. But I would say that Jordan, that this was calculated. I think that this was premeditated.
She lured her husband up there in the middle of the night -- hold on, let me finish, can I finish? I think she lured her husband to this cliff in the middle of the night. He had a fear of heights and then she leaves him there for days after. I`m sorry. She doesn`t even know if her husband survived that fall.
So, she could have left him there essentially to die over a period of days, and then it`s an absolute joke to see the way that she actually tried to cover this up. But you know what, Dr. Drew, she`s on bail, she`s out, in the street. And maybe the joke is on us.
HUTT: But wait, this is another strange thing about this girl. Most of her friends were under 14 years of age.
PINSKY: Oh, yes.
HUTT: I mean, that`s just -- that`s just off. That`s weird.
PINSKY: So, Jennifer is smiling and saying it`s weird. You agree -- but I want to go to Cheryl, because Cheryl, you`re the forensic person here as we`ve got someone hanging out with pre-adolescent, adolescent people. She seemed closed off, peculiar to the friends. She has this weird cover- up. How do you add it all up?
CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., CLINICAL & FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: This is peculiar all right. I`ve got to say that I, too, find the absolute creepiest part of this whole thing is that her new husband could have been lying down there alive, dying, being eaten by coyotes, we don`t even know what happened to this poor man.
And for her to do that and cover that up, I think what we really need to think about, everybody, is this is the difference between someone who wants to have a wedding and someone who wants to have a marriage. And let`s really think about the difference between a wedding and a marriage. This was not somebody who was willing to make that kind of commitment.
PINSKY: Jennifer, finish it up. Go ahead, Jennifer.
JENNIFER KEITT, JENNIFERKEITT.COM: Because -- women -- young women who want to be brides and don`t want to be wives. She wanted to save face, I believe that she`s evil. I am sorry. She is just wretched and evil, and she deserves to go to jail for a very long time.
PINSKY: So, unlike our usual panels, we`re making the case here. This one, not a mental health issue, this particular one.
PINSKY: Maybe psychological, but we`re not going to give it a major mental health kind of label. I`ve got to go to break, guys. Got to go break.
Next up, Kanye West wraps himself in confederate flag. Miss Ali, there`s that picture that has everyone talking. Miss Ali is here to talk about it as with our panel. Back after this.
PINSKY: We are back. I`m here with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. Now, rapper, Kanye West spotted, this weekend wearing a confederate flag on his jacket sleeve. It caught a lot of press. He says he`s taking ownership of this emotionally charged image to reclaim it from racists.
PINSKY: Here is what he told an L.A. radio station, Jenny.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KANYE WEST, RAPPER: The energy you got is good energy. You know, the confederate flag represented slavery in a way the way -- that`s my abstract take on what I know about it, right? So, I made the song new slaves. So, I took the confederate flag and made it my flag. It`s my flag now. Now, what you going to do?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUTT: Now what you`re going to do? What? Are you going to rewrite history?
PINSKY: And let`s remind ourselves that the merchandise that Kanye West`s new concert tour is selling features confederate flags. And all kinds of people are going to be buying this -- I`m sure he hopes -- obviously here with Samantha, Tiffanie, Lynn, they`re all back with us.
Now, by phone, I want to get right to Shahrazad Ali. Miss Ali, do you have a reaction? Help us sort of make sense of this.
VOICE OF SHAHRAZAD ALI, AUTHOR: I don`t know how you make sense of that, Dr. Drew, but I will try.
PINSKY: Yes, ma`am.
ALI: The situation is so ridiculous. How is it that every time a Black man get with a White woman, he first start trying to prove how Black he is and how much he love Black people. Kanye West is just half racist. He doesn`t want his own woman that God gave him, he went and got him a White woman --
PINSKY: Hold on, Miss Ali, hold on, because Tiffanie is having a very powerful reaction to what you`re saying. I can`t help but go right to her. Tiffanie, what do you want to say? And you`re feel free to talk to Miss Ali.
HENRY: You did not have to do that. I was really enjoying what Miss Ali was saying.
PINSKY: Well, she can continue.
HENRY: Didn`t have to call me out like that. I understand where Miss Ali is coming from. I think my take on this is Kanye knows exactly how inflammatory this flag is. He knows what it represents. Maybe he doesn`t know what it represents, because maybe if he did, maybe he wouldn`t put it on his jacket. But I think what he`s trying to do is take back the power that this symbol had.
PINSKY: No, we get that. Yes, we get that. And is it not the case - -
HENRY: But is that necessary?
PINSKY: Miss Ali, there`s --
HENRY: Think about it this way, too, Dr. Drew. A lot of people have said that they do the same thing, but the "N" word, you know, Black folks will use it, and we`ll take the "N" word back and we`ll start to use it, it empowers us, but it continues to enslave us as well. So, I don`t really agree with that --
PINSKY: Miss Ali, how about that? It`s the same thing as that argument for the "N" word. The African-American people can -- take its power away.
ALI: That`s nonsense. Kanye is what you call a little pimp rapper. He (INAUDIBLE) Jesus, you know, used him to get attention in that way. He wants this as his form of rebellion. Now, let me tell you what I really think is going on with this guy.
PINSKY: Don`t scare me.
ALI: I`m not. But ever since his mother passed, I think Kanye needs some grief therapy, because he has been rebelling,. He`s been doing a lot of erratic behavior things, and just doing a lot of silly stuff.
But for him to come out and claim he tried to defend the rest of the Black people against slavery and racism, that`s absurd. He`s a major racist. He doesn`t even like his own self. He with somebody else, you know? So, I think that that`s silly that he`s doing that.
PINSKY: Hold on. Lynn, is she onto something there?
BERRY: Dr. Drew, good luck with that. Way to throw me to the wolves. Listen, honestly, Miss Ali, something that I think is really offensive in what you`re saying is that you`re calling him a racist because he`s with someone of a different race, and I think that demeans interracial marriages that many people find happiness and love and I really think that that is what I take offense with.
ALI: Well, you can be offended, I understand that. But I`m talking facts about something in our community, how we define this. Once again, all people want to do is to tell us what things are defined for us and what they mean to us. Kanye is a joke to us. We understand what he`s doing. And as I said, he pimped his own woman. He`s had her take those pictures to show that her buttocks is real.
PINSKY: We got to take a break. Sam, I want to get you into this conversation. Again, Miss Ali as always with a provocative way of thinking about things. We`ll get back with her and more on this Kanye story in just a second.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hunt. We`re talking about Kanye West, seen wearing a confederate flag on his jacket sleeve. And I want to get to a tweet here about Miss Ali and Kanye. As usual, Miss Ali generates lot of social media reaction. "I think Kanye is an example of classic narcissistic behavior, but he also appears immature in thinking if that makes sense."
Back with our panel, Samantha, Tiffanie, Lynn, Miss Ali on the phone. Miss Ali, do you agree with that tweet?
ALI: Well, I certainly think he is immature, but more importantly, I think that effects our young people who kind of worship him sometimes is that he`s an exhibitionist and the worst kind of way. And there`s one part of a back story here I want to mention, Dr. Drew. Now, historically as Black women, we have always been known as being, you know, voluptuous and certainly having the biggest buttocks of the women in America.
There`s nothing wrong with that, that`s attractive to us and to a lot of people. However, Kanye and his woman, Kim Kardashian, we can`t have nothing. We can`t even have the biggest butt. White women are getting all these butt implants and injections and getting their behind blowed up.
PINSKY: I`ve got a White woman here who needs to talk. Sam --
SCHACHER: I want to move back to what we were originally talking about, not Kim Kardashian and her artificial buttocks.
PINSKY: Is it artificial, is that true?
SCHACHER: There are rumors. Yes. There`s plenty of rumors saying that they are implants. OK. We`re not going to talk about that. I want to talk about --
ALI: No, we can talk about that.
SCHACHER: I think we need to talk about the fact, and listen, I`m not normally one to defend Kanye West and his narcissism, but in this case, let`s say that he did have a sincere intent to try to re-appropriate the meaning of this disgusting -- I`m just saying, I`m playing devil`s advocate, what if he was trying to --
ALI: He ought to re-appropriate the meaning of the Black family. That would be something good for him to do. That`s where we`re having problems with. That`s what`s being destroyed in our community. That`s where we`re lacking images and video to show our younger people that this is what it looks like. This is how it can be successful. This is how you survive in today`s world.
PINSKY: OK Tiffanie, you want to follow -- Tiffanie, go ahead.
HENRY: Well, you know what, I will agree with one thing that Miss Ali said. We have seen a lot more of this narcissistic acting out, and the things that he`s done that we`ve all just kind of had this strange look on our face after the passing of his mom. And I think even in his interview, he did state that some things have -- you know, he kind of went out of place out of line, stuff with Taylor Swift, all of that stuff happened after his mom`s passing.
So, you know, I think he is really grasping for straws, grasping for some sense of normalcy, some sense of family. But this thing today really, really shocked me. I shouldn`t have been surprised, because it`s Kanye West. But again, I`m surprised because it`s Kanye West.
PINSKY: OK. Lynn, finish me off here.
BERRY: I would say it`s not about the message, it`s about the messenger. If you want to send a message, I would say Kanye West is probably not the best way to do it. Miss Ali, if you`re talking about a community and who needs to be setting an example for community, I would not start with Kanye West as the best --
PINSKY: But, Miss Ali --
ALI: Well, I would start with him. I would start with him, because he is the one that our young people are looking at and imitating.
PINSKY: Miss Ali, I just want to -- I`ve got to go to break again, but I want to thank you for being here and as always making us think and think provocatively about these things. So, I appreciate you being here. Thank you, panel. Interesting conversation. "Last Call" is next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I apologize to whoever I cussed at. I apologize.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, hey, hey!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Time for the "Last Call." Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. The "Last Call" is about another meltdown on a plane. That female passenger apparently angry that her bag wouldn`t fit in the overhead bin. She was asked to leave, I guess, take her bag out for a gate check, then a fellow passenger recorded her with the cell phone, then she grabbed the cell phone and you saw what just happened there.
HUTT: Yes. I kind of get it a little bit. I`m not a great flyer. So --
PINSKY: So, what you`re saying is, I should never be on a plane with you.
HUTT: No, that`s not what I said, because I dope up, knock myself out.
PINSKY: Perfect. I could be on a plane with you anytime.
HUTT: No, but I get it. I have heightened anxiety, heightened sensitivity when I`m on the aircraft. So if something goes wrong, I might get a little bit kooky which is why I dope up -- doctor prescribed medications.
PINSKY: Right. Those treatments (ph) for you.
PINSKY: So, have you actually lost it on a plane like that? Let`s say your bag weighed too much and they`re going to charge you for a bag or can`t fit it in an overhead bin or the flight attendants who have to deal with people like that all the time get a little snappy?
HUTT: You know, I only dealt with people before I`ve gotten on the plane at the counter.
PINSKY: Is there a story there?
HUTT: No, I mean --
PINSKY: What happened?
HUTT: I don`t know that it matters. What matters --
PINSKY: It matters to me.
HUTT: I gave the lovely counter people cupcakes that I purchased for them at the airport as a sorry.
PINSKY: So, anybody at JFK yesterday -- guess it was a Delta who saw this young lady freaking out at the ticket counter, please do call with the stories or tweet us @DrDrewHLN #BehaviorBureau, because that`s where we`re going to take it up tomorrow, I suspect.
Thank you, Jenny. Thank you all for watching. We`ll see you next time. "HLN After Dark" begins right now.