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A Big City Mayor Admits To Smoking Crack;
Aired November 5, 2013 - 21:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HNL HOST OF "DR. DREW" SHOW (voice-over): Tonight, scandal. A big city mayor admits to smoking crack.
ROB FORD, TORONTO MAYOR: Am I an addict? No. Have I tried it? Probably in one of my drunken stupors.
PINSKY: He denied it for months. Why is he coming clean now? My Behavior Bureau has some ideas. And, we have got video you will not believe. Update, did a teacher who was murdered have a relationship with the student accused of killing her? We finally have answers.
And, look at this. A woman overdosed on heroine brought back from the brink of death with a dose of another drug. Is this for real? I will explain. Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening, everybody. Co-host here tonight is serious XM host Jenny Hutt. And, coming up, we are looking to the heroin addict overdoses is really at the verge of dying and appears we brought back to life. We will show you a viral video that is getting around and I will explain it.
But first, the mayor of a major city caught on video, appears to be smoking crack cocaine, and having a group of like drug dealers around or suspicious types?
JENNIFER HUTT, HN CO-HOST OF "DR. DREW" SHOW: Typically, when one smokes crack cocaine, they are with others who are suspicious types, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: First of all, how dare you say such a thing? But, anyway, pressure from the public and the media made Toronto Mayor Rob Ford finally come clean a little bit.
PINSKY: Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR FORD: Get off my property!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I`m leaving!
MAYOR FORD: Take it off my property!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I`m leaving!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Toronto police reportedly of a video of the mayor smoking a crack pipe.
BILL BLAIR, TORONTO POLICE CHIEF: We are now in possession of a recovered digital video file. The mayor does appear in that video.
ROBYN DOOLITTLE, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, "THE TORONTO STAR": He is in a white dress shirt. That is kind of unbuttoned around the top and he looks completely out of it. He is jerking and bobbing around. He is slurring. His eyes are kind of fluttering and he clearly smokes from out of what looks like a crack pipe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Do you smoke crack cocaine?
MAYOR FORD: Exactly. Yes, I have smoked crack cocaine.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Are you on crack right now?
MAYOR FORD: Today`s announcement, I know, I embarrassed everyone in this city. I was elected to do a job and that is exactly what I am going to continue to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining us -- joining us to discuss, Lynn Berry, HLN anchor. I know, Jenny.
HUTT: I know -- That is the least of his problem, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: You have plenty of time to talk about this. Let`s bring our panel. Lauren Lake, attorney and presiding judge on paternity court, Dean Obeidallah, cnn.com and "Daily Beast" Contributor and Loni Coombs, author of "You`re Perfect & Other Lies Parents Tell."
So, let us go through this story, Jenny. You have already expressed the outrage. I want to go through it outrage by outrage. First and this is the latest, that the mayor as we heard here has no intentions of resigning. He plans to keep on working. Loni, do you think that is appropriate?
LONI COOMBS, AUTHOR OF "YOU`RE PERFECT & OTHER LIES PARENTS TELL": No. Absolutely not! Look, this is the mayor. This is the person who runs the city, who sets policies, who set laws and regulations. You want them to be a little higher than everybody else. Somebody you can look up to.
This guy is just going through the book of things you should not be doing. And, then he lies and denies about it. He can`t even be honest about it. How in the world can the constituents in that town look up to that mayor and say, "This is the type of leader that we want leading our city." He even now is not coming clean like you said, a little bit. But, he is still not admitting really to what he did.
PINSKY: And, Lauren and I imagine that, Loni. But, there is another issue here, which is he, as I understand it, he oversees the police department, too; so, the people who have been looking into him. He`s been supervising? It makes you kind of your head spin a bit.
LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY AND PRESIDING JUDGE OF PATERNITY COURT: Exactly. And, just to piggyback off of Loni. She said, "We want them to be higher - - the mayor to be higher than everyone else.
PINSKY: He got that. He got that part.
LAKE: That is the problem. He is higher than everybody else! And, that is what I am having a problem with. You cannot say you are going to run a city and then sit up there and smoke the same drug you probably supposed to be trying to get rid off. And, this is insanity for him to think that he can now, look, I am a believer in second chances. Let me say that.
But, you got to go somewhere. Get yourself some treatment. Get yourself together. And, if you want to run again at a later date, you do so. But, he needs to step down and get himself together. He know, who smoked crack one time? --
HUTT: Hold on.
LAKE: Is my name boo boo the fool?
HUTT: Hold on.
PINSKY: Jenny --
LAKE: Who smokes crack one time?
PINSKY: -- Jenny, go ahead.
HUTT: Wait, wait, wait, wait --
LAKE: Isn`t that why they called it crack?
HUTT: Hold on. Hold on. There is the concept of caveat emptor, which is buyer beware. This is a mayor, who we knew years ago had trouble with alcohol, and substance issues. It is not a surprise that he is smoking crack, really. It is upsetting.
PINSKY: Dean, you are saying no.
DEAN OBEIDALLAH, CNN.COM AND DAILY BEAST CONTRIBUTOR: He is not -- I don`t think he is a crack addict. He says he is not a crack addict. I am not a doctor, but most crack addicts are really thin, so he is the fattest crack addicts ever or he is not a crack addict. I think may be he is addict with Krispy Cremes.
HUTT: Oh, my --
OBEIDALLAH: But, let`s be honest. There are second chances. Marion Barry was the mayor of Washington, D.C. 1990 arrested with a joke for six months, came out, run for -- later elected mayor. And, this guy runs for office in 2014. There is no impeachment in Canada. I am just looking it up. So, he is there in 2014. He has one year to prove to his constituents he is cleaned up and he is ready to be mayor again for them -- or I think maybe he should go to rehab. That is very good --
PINSKY: Well, for sure. I will get into that with the Behavior Bureau. But for the record, I have treated obese crack addicts.
HUTT: So, that is a proof.
PINSKY: Listen. Remember Adam Goldstein who died of addiction? He was a DJ AM.
PINSKY: He was a severe crack addict and he was always joked about because he could not even get the crack addiction right because he was the only obese crack addict. He knew -- I have seen several.
HUTT: Because that was one of the reasons that I never tried cocaine or crack was I thought if it made me thin I would be too happy and I would become addicted. I know it sounds nuts. But, I always say too much.
LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST: Or maybe just because it is crack cocaine. That is probably a good enough reason not to do it.
PINSKY: No. No. No. It is just because you might have like it too much. But, you can take her at her word.
BERRY: But, you know, Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: Yes, Lynn.
BERRY: -- I think that there is an argument here. This guy is not a child molester. He did not kill someone. He did not rape someone. He may be doing something damaging to himself. But, there is an argument to be made that if he admits that he is an addict and he goes and tries and seek help, there is no reason he should have to step down. He is up for re-election next year. We live in a democracy. People can vote him out of office. So, if he gets the help he needs --
PINSKY: One thing. I actually agree with you. The one thing, though, is people have to take time off work in order to focus on that treatment. But, I am going to show you another outrage. A video of the mayor from -- this last summer partying with a couple of young people outside a local bar. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR FORD: How you doing, man?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Everybody go up to the party.
MAYOR FORD: I want to get these kids --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: He is a big guy, man.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Lynn, I am with you. I feel bad for this guy. But, I want to show you one other thing. Last week, a radio talk show host, Bill Carroll, AM640 took a call from someone who called himself Ian. Ian on this talk show, and Lynn I am going to ask you about this, he was defending the Mayor, Rob and his co-host heard his voice, believed it sound familiar to them. They suspected it was the mayor and lower the hole. This clip was posted to gawker.com. You got to hear it. Here we go.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CALLER: How do you know when you are being videotaped? Do you know? When do you -- OK -- Sorry, what was your name?
BILL CARROLL, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST, AM640: This is Bill. Is this Rob Ford?
CALLER: Bill. Bill. OK.
CARROLL: No. I am serious. Hold on a second here --
CALLER: How many times have you been videotaped in the last week? --
CARROLL: Who am I talking to right now?
CALLER: How many times have you been videotaped in the last week --
CARROLL: The times that I have looked into the camera, once.
CALLER: Oh yeah, once. How do you know what you do exactly? There is camera is everywhere. OK -- OK. So, you are telling me that he goes around and videotapes himself smoking crack?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: Oh, you guys, you did not put the part of the pay-off for that whole thing. Didn`t they start -- the host are going on like, "I know this is you. I recognize your voice." And, when they -- and he goes, "well, the mayor did, I mean I did, I mean he did" --
PINSKY: Yes. He does this. You did not put that on the -- we have to get our hands on that. It is so good. And, then he hangs up in the middle of it. Lynn, did you hear that part of the tape?
BERRY: Yes. I mean it is just kind of mind-boggling, and the tape that they are talking about that he said who videotapes themselves smoking crack, it wasn`t that he videotaped himself. Apparently, this videotape came from a group of drug dealers that he was with that then tried to sell this tape out there for hundreds of thousands of dollars.
And, here is where it gets really interesting. Police have charged a friend, they say, of the mayors for trying to extort these drug dealers, trying to prevent them from selling this tape, from keeping it out on the streets. This is like a soap opera that goes around and around and somebody needs to lock him in a room with --
PINSKY: OK. Hold on. Couple of things. First of all, that last tape we heard from the radio show. CNN has not been able to authenticate the claim that that was in fact the mayor. And, we reached out to the mayor`s office for a comment but did not hear back. And, Lynn you did something very characteristic, there were in my patients, you started doing this, which is what people start getting into the vortex when somebody is using drugs and alcohol, as a vortex that spills around them. Loni you are shaking. You are nodding your head.
COOMBS: Well, Dr. Drew, you know, it is not just a victimless crime. You are saying he is only doing this to himself. When he gets under the influence, like when he was at that same St. Patrick`s Day Party in 2012, and he was drunk. He shoved someone down to the ground.
He started using Racial EP threats to the taxi cab driver. There are allegations that he has made inappropriate sexual comments. He told woman when he was taking a political photograph with her because he was supposedly drunk. I mean there were things that are coming out of what he is under the influence of these drugs that of course, he is still not really admitting he does.
And, it is affecting other people. Besides, this stature in his office, he is committing things that could be considered crimes if law enforcement that he runs was not the ones handling the investigations. There might actually be some charges coming out.
PINSKY: Got it. Lauren finish me off. I am against the clock.
LAKE: And, it goes to the larger context of judgment. If you can`t control your self you are making these judgments to do drugs, what can you do for a city right now? Nothing. Sit down.
PINSKY: I know the city of Toronto is a little embarrassed. They are a little upset about this. I say, it is a sad situation. This guy deserves our empathy. I will explain to you why, after the break.
Next we are going to bring in our craft behavior bureau to examine the mayor`s bizarre press conferences and his history of denial and his obfuscation. I will tell you what that means and why is it so characteristic of addiction.
And later, new details about a teacher and a student accused of her murder. Was there, in fact, anything improper going on between the two of them? You will find out, after this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Do you smoke crack cocaine?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR FORD: Exactly. Yes, I have smoked crack cocaine -- but no, do I? Am I an addict? No. Have I tried it? Probably in one of my drunken stupors, probably approximately about a year ago. I would like to see this tape. I don`t even recall there being a tape and a video and I know that, so I want to see the state that I was in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: We are back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. And, we are discussing the mayor, who are right there tells us he had done crack one time.
HUTT: He is not sure. Maybe in his drunken stupor, Dr. Drew -- maybe.
PINSKY: Listen. I am more interested in the drunken stupor than I am in the crack, and I will explain that in just a second. But, let me share a tweet with you first. This is from someone up in Canada. It is from @CatherineintheseaNC, "If any of us hard working citizens did what he did, we`d be fired in a heartbeat."
Including probably breaking the law and all the things he has done. But, I tell you what, drunken stupor -- and we have seen him having consequences from his alcohol use. He is having blackout drunks. He is seriously involved with alcohol over many years.
And, let`s define what alcoholism is. I will bring the behaviour bureau within a second just to define that, but it is after I define it. It is a biological disorder with a genetic basis. You should see some family history. It is ongoing use in the face of consequence, work, relationships, medical status and its denial. He certainly has denial.
PINSKY: He certainly has consequence.
PINSKY: I d not know anything about his family history, but he meets these criteria.
HUTT: And, he looks like he might be an alcoholic, right?
PINSKY: Yes. He got plethora. It is called plethora. It has medical consequences too. We will throw in other drugs into their use, but their primary drug remain alcohol and alcohol addiction is the same thing. It doesn`t really matter. It is the same disorder.
So, let us bring in our crack Behavior Bureau to discuss this, shall we? First off, I have Jennifer Keitt, a life coach. I have Samantha Schacher, host of Pop Trigger on Young Turks Network. Casey Jordan, Criminologist, host of "Wives With Knives" on Investigation Discovery. I believe you guys have the distinction, Casey, by being singled out by South Park for being called murder porn? -- And, Wendy Walsh, psychologist, author of "The 30- Day Love Detox." So, who wants to have a crack at the mayor? Who is up first?
WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: Oh my gosh.
PINSKY: Wendy. Wendy, go ahead.
WALSH: Well, since I seem to be the only Canadian on your show tonight, Dr. Drew, I do want to say that we are very tolerant people, but this is going a little too far, don`t you think? The truth is that what your Canadian who tweeted in to you said is very true. We follow rules in Canada, God Darn it! And, I think we need to fire this man because any good, law-abiding Canadian would be fired for breaking the law.
PINSKY: Well, I want you to listen to this from a radio show hosted by the mayor -- the Mayor Ford and his brother. It is on News Talk 1010. Just listen to this.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
MAYOR FORD: I am not going to sit here and say I am never going to drink again. That is not realistic.
DOUG FORD, MAYOR FORD`S BROTHER: Everything in moderation, Rob.
MAYOR FORD: Anything in moderation.
DOUG FORD: Everything in moderation.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
HUTT: Everything in moderation.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Sam.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HOST OF POP TRIGGER: Everything in moderation? I mean, this guy is history. He has been kicked out of sporting events, kicked out of parties, kicked out of political events. And, what I really hate is his MO that he denies it until he is force to admit his wrongdoings when evidence is thrown in his face. I mean he acts more like a drunken frat boy than a mayor.
PINSKY: And, Casey, I am shocked. I mean in somebody with history of alcohols and lies and obfuscation -- well, I am just shocked by that. I can`t understand.
SCHACHER: Clearly, he has a problem.
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: He does. And, Samantha has it dead on. It is the denial. All right? Let`s hope he smokes crack in moderation too. It`s the denial that really is disturbing here. He is a public servant. He is not going to be held and should not be held to the same level of accountability.
And, as your fan, Catherine wrote in, anybody else would have been fired from his job, but due to some technicality he didn`t get fired when he was found guilty of the conflict of interest charges. He has had a trial. He had a DUI at 29 --
JORDAN: -- Domestic violence allegations --
JORDAN: -- and he does not want help. He does not want help. And, that is to me why steps need to be taken.
PINSKY: And Jennifer you pile out of that issue of him not wanting out.
JENNIFER KEITT, LIFE COACH: I think -- it is absolutely true. I cannot feel sorry for him. This man has got a wife. He got two small children. He continues to dodge issue after issue after issue. He comes back. He lies about it then when he gets caught we get crocodile tears.
That can`t happen, Dr. drew. He has made it a public issue every time he acts a fool in public. Well, now I think he has to be judged and he is found guilty. He needs to sit down. He needs to get help. Show some humility here.
PINSKY: Jenny -- but Jenny keeps saying that the citizens voted for him. Wendy, talk to me about Canadians and their views on alcoholism. They really don`t -- don`t really identify it as clearly as clinicians do.
WALSH: OK. So, I do have to say we have a couple vices. One is hockey night in Canada and the other is a few Brewskis every now and once in a while. No, I think the research shows that in Europe and Canada, there is a lot more alcohol consumption than in America.
PINSKY: And, a lot more alcoholism and a lot more serious problems and consequences. And, here we are seeing it --
SCHACHER: Dr. Drew. We have to keep warm!
PINSKY: Wendy, my dear. Come on, now.
HUTT: And, then everyone is saying, "He is a politician. He is in public office. He should behave a certain way." How often in public office does someone misbehave? I mean it is sort of like part of a course, you know?
SCHACHER: More often in America, though, I will say that.
KEITT: Crack? Not crack.
HUTT: But, people misbehave.
PINSKY: Jennifer go ahead.
KEITT: But, crack? Crack is one of the most addictive forms of cocaine. Out of all the drugs of choice that this man can go pull out in a drunken stupor? Crack? Are you absolutely kidding me?
KEITT: The man got problems. And, he needs to address those problems because how can he fix Canada`s problems if he is not even fixing his own. Come on, now.
PINSKY: All right. Hold right there. We are going to get back to our crack Behavior Bureau after the break. And, coming up, police say a 14- year-old student killed a teacher. We have new information about whether those two -- this gentleman -- this young 14-year-old and his teacher had any sort of consort relationship. Was there anything going on? Our panel thought there was. We are going talk about it. We now know whether anything was going on before the murder. We will be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBYN DOOLITTLE, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER OF TORONTO STAR: So, over the last two days, he has been doing a media blitz. At first, there speculation he was going to step aside or say he is going to get treatment in a rehab center. But, he showed up to his radio show. He does a weekly radio show with his brother, Councillor Doug Ford, blaring staying alive out of his SUV, which gave us a pretty good indication of what he planned to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now Robyn Doolittle is one of -- whom we just saw in that report is one of only two reporters who have seen the video of Toronto`s mayor allegedly smoking crack, Jenny.
HUTT: Lucky girl.
PINSKY: And, as you hear a description of it before the other last segment that apparently he was kind of reeling along, and he was clearly intoxicated.
PINSKY: The fact that he gets so drunk. He does not remember what he is doing. He brings in other drugs. This is really serious addiction, a life threatening addiction.
HUTT: And, that is why you have compassion for him.
PINSKY: That is why I have compassion and some of our panel -- let`s bring in our panel back. Lets bring in Jennifer Keitt, Samantha Schacher, Casey Jordan, and Wendy Walsh, out Behavior Bureau.
Now, you guys, some of you were expressing some compassion for you. Wendy, not you. And, Wendy, I want to share a tweet I got. And, it is from a fellow Canadian. Here it is it is from @Tank_Castle. There you go. "Bobby Ford being talked about on CNN`s Dr. Drew. Apparently, we drink more than Americans. For once CNN got something right." And, thank you, Wendy for helping us with that.
WALSH: I got our facts right, and we own more guns per capita too, I don`t know why.
PINSKY: But, that is the important issue here to me is that people don`t identify this as a medical issue. This man could easily die of his addiction. He is going to lose his job, potentially. God knows what is going on with his relationship. You know they are upset about this. This is severe. Alcohol is not anybody else on the panel concerned about his survival? Well-being?
SCHACHER: Well, Dr. Drew, I have a lot of compassion for his addiction, but if he was not such a pompous jerk then, you know, it makes it hard to have compassion for somebody that continues to be very self-entitled --
PINSKY: But -- Sam --
SCHACHER: -- He is very arrogant.
PINSKY: -- Sam, thank God you do not have my job. Because in my job -- at job work -- That is how addicts come in the door. They are defended. They are in denial. They are self-absorbed. That is part of the condition.
SCHACHER: But I think it has a lot to do with his family history too.
PINSKY: Well, we will talk about that -- we will talk about that, but I want to get a word from Casey here first. Casey, what do you think?
JORDAN: OK. And, you are absolutely right. And, boy, do I have first ten knowledge of this level of denial. However, from family members, the key is that he admittedly doing crack cocaine and in a drunken stupor. I don`t know which is worse.
He is in so many drunken stupors. He is not sure if he smoked crack cocaine. But, he is this man who is addicted, who is under the influence, driving a vehicle, called the city of Toronto, and that is and that`s the key, and why I have no sympathy or empathy for this particular man.
He needs and he has been told by everyone around him he needs to resign and he needs to get help. He said I have admitted it. I have apologized. Let`s move on. Let`s not talk about it. I am running for re-election.
PINSKY: Jennifer, what about --
JORDAN: He has too much power.
PINSKY: -- Listen. I`m going to ask Jennifer and I am going to ask Sam this. What if he had cancer and it made him behave strangely and it made him behave strangely and it made him put his life in danger, and he was no longer able to function well as a mayor -- he take a month off, six weeks off. He get treatment. Why not give him the chance to do that Jennifer?
KEITT: OK. I would agree with you, Dr. Drew if this man was showing signs that he even wanted to help.
KEITT: My thing is every single night, he is going home to a wife. He is going home to children. Nothing is jogging him. Nothing is pulling at his heart to say, "Look, I got to do something different here." That is why I can`t be sympathetic. I just can`t be. He is going to kill somebody before he gets out.
PINSKY: And, many addicts -- you are angry.
HUTT: I am angry because there is zero responsibility --
PINSKY: Yes. But, many times, addicts and alcohol does not get through to them until they have a near-death experience or they harm somebody else or they lose their --
HUTT: I know, but this is somebody who has a flag gotten -- one of those - - the flair guns in his face. Everybody is telling him --
PINSKY: I know. Wendy, want to say something.
WALSH: Yes. I want to say something, Dr. Drew. You know that the worse thing you can be in a marriage is an enabler. Well, if he stays in office, the Canadian public has become one giant enabler.
HUTT: That`s good.
PINSKY: All right.
WALSH: And, your idea that he takes six weeks off and then comes back to work. In your experience, Dr. Drew, any addict that you know could get clean and sober and fully functional to run Canada`s largest city after only six weeks? You think that is possible?
PINSKY: Not likely.
PINSKY: Not likely. But, I would give him a chance at least if, you know, if he could find a way. I am just saying I am willing to give anyone their chance to return to a flourishing experience. I have to vanquish everything. But, sometimes they do everything in order to get better.
Now, let`s look at something else. The mayor comes from a wealthy family. Sam, you would start telling us about this. He is the youngest of four. There is documentation of many inappropriate situations, a lot of entitlement, a lot of sort of bad judgment. Sam, do you know some details about this?
SCHACHER: No. I do know that he does come from a very wealthy family. He seems to be very self-entitled. He seems to not learn from -- when he is supposedly being taught lessons. So, for instance, when he was early on -- when he was younger, he was a football coach and he got dismissed as the coach because of his misconduct.
But, then he just joins another team from a different league and does the same thing and is dismissed begin. So, he just does not learn, Dr. Drew. And, that is what frustrates me. How is this man mayor? And, he has two kids. Two kids.
PINSKY: Ladies -- ladies, first alcoholic politician? Is that what we are saying here? Of course not.
WALSH: He has done a lot of stuff that was less than OK --
PINSKY: He is further along and I blame Canadian like Wendy.
WALSH: Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: I am just kidding.
WALSH: I never served them alcohol.
PINSKY: I am just kidding. But, there is a cultural sort of denial that goes on there. Everyone`s like "Oh, yeah. It just cut back, just relax." He needs to stop. He needs to get recovery. He needs to get real treatment. And, I hope he does. And, you are right though. There is an issue as to whether or not it is reasonable to assume that this guy could resume as mayor. I agree with my panel. Thank you guys for a good -- excuse me, I am choking on this one.
HUTT: You want some water?
PINSKY: I am good. I am good. Thank you for your conversation. Next up, a 14-year-old student was charged with a teacher`s murder. Was there an inappropriate relationship between these two? We have details and facts to tell and later the viral video that a lot of people are talking about. Heroin addict nearly dead comes back with the institution of one drug. We will show you that. Back in a moment.
VINNIE POLITAN, HLN ANCHOR: Coming up, top of the hour on "HLN After Dark," the prosecution case is almost done out in Utah in the Martin MacNeill case. One or two or maybe three more witness tomorrow morning. That`s it.
RYAN SMITH, HLN ANCHOR: That`s right. Gypsy is going to be one of them. But you know, we`re asking tonight, Vinnie, the bold question, did the prosecution prove the doctor killed his wife? This jury is ready.
POLITAN: The ultimate question for the ultimate jury. Top of the hour, "HLN After Dark."
PINSKY: Welcome back. I`m here with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. And we are switching gears to talk about a 14-year-old student accused of stabbing his teacher then dumping her body behind the school. The question has been, was there an inappropriate relationship between this two? The prosecutors now putting these rumors to rest finally. Take a look at this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. Philip Chism did assault and beat Colleen Ritzer with intent to murder.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This was cold, this was calculating.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Chism killed her in the girl`s bathroom with a box cutter he brought to school.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And they found her body in the woods behind the school.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: By the way, wasn`t even covered up, wasn`t buried. It wasn`t like he was trying to conceal this crime.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She had been stabbed and beaten to death.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He actually changed his clothes after the alleged murder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He then went to this theater to see Woody Allen`s Blue Jasmine.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He hadn`t done his homework that day and that he did stay after class.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was drawing, he wasn`t doing that. He wasn`t paying attention.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Maybe there was something more than just a teacher/student relationship going on here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- that this woman that they think is a saint was really one of the most egregious sinners, and she molested this kid, and she treated him badly.
PINSKY: Back with us, Lynn, Lauren, Dean, and Loni. The DA says there`s absolutely no evidence of any misconduct or wrongdoing by Ms. Ritzer of any sorts. Sorry, Segun. Lauren, your reaction.
LAKE: I am so baffled by this. I mean, this crime was so heinous, Dr. Drew. I mean, gruesome. The anger, the rage behind it.
LAKE: And then, if it wasn`t directed towards the teacher, what is it in this child`s background? Is there someone else that he was angry with -- something bottled up? I truly can`t get my thoughts around this.
PINSKY: Lynn, I wonder if you know anything about the parents moving around a lot. It makes me wonder whether or not they were moving because this kid started having behaviors that were disturbing.
JENNY HUTT, ATTORNEY: Oh.
BERRY: Well, all of us had so many questions about this. And it`s part of the reason this this came out today. It`s because the media has asked the court to release some documents that`s why this hearing even happened today, that`s why the DA said there was no misconduct. We need to keep this close until the grand jury investigation has been complete, because by the way, the family doesn`t even know the details of this yet.
They haven`t even finished grieving. They haven`t even been able to begin. Here`s what we do know about this kid`s family. They had just gotten to the area. Father was in the military, so moved around a lot. That`s pretty much the extent of what we know. We`re going to learn a lot more, but can we just take a hot second and let this grand jury investigation continue?
Let this family grieve before we start throwing out assumptions that Segun did and that panel really upset me. There was absolutely no red flag. And we have covered a lot of these stories. And there`s always been some kind of red flag that there may have been improper conduct by the teacher.
There wasn`t a single one. This young 24-year-old teacher who was brutally murdered should never even had her name thrown out there before this investigation had two days to begin. So, it really upset me.
HUTT: In all fairness, the level of brutality, Dr. Drew, I feel like typically such an angry, violent form of killing is -- doesn`t mean she did something wrong, but it`s something.
PINSKY: That`s what Laura was trying to get her head around. Did something happen to -- kid beaten or there was something wrong with his brain where he doesn`t really realize other people really exist, the psychopathy present. And Loni, as you were saying, the nature of that is so violent, beating then stabbing with the box cutter. I wonder if you have any thoughts about this.
COOMBS: Well, you know, it`s interesting. Remember, the witnesses in this case are going to be a lot of students the same age, 14, 13, 15-year-old kid who are testifying to a very brutal crime, and that`s part of the reason why the prosecution is saying, look, let`s just get this to the grand jury before it all gets out in the media and people start talking about it and reporters start trying to interview all of these witnesses.
Let`s just let people get to the grand jury, let it be untainted by any outside source so these kids don`t feel intimidated or scared or nervous to come forward with what they know to be true and then let the prosecution go ahead and do their job and get this into the justice system. People are speculating because it was so violent.
COOMBS: That`s why there was speculation --
PINSKY: We can`t get our head around it. Finally, Dean, I want to give you a chance -- nodding away there. So, go ahead. I`m against the clock a little bit. Go ahead.
OBEIDALLAH: I had been. Quick thing, I think their family -- her family must be so relieved to hear this publicly to put an end to the whisper campaign out there. Obviously, social media drives that a lot, so I`m sure they`re very happy. But the fact that there was no real relationship, Dr. Drew, I must ask -- the young man didn`t think he was having some kind of relationship with her.
OBEIDALLAH: And perhaps that`s the motivation. Maybe we`re missing something because in his mind, he thought something was going on and she rebuffed him and he committed this horrendous act.
PINSKY: Well, hopefully, we`re get more information. We actually have one of the suspect`s classmates who`s going to join us in the next block and talk about the "behavior" on the day of the murder. She`s going to answer your questions.
And later on, as I said, a heroin addict on the verge of death and a medication that gave her a second chance. We have an update on her condition. Don`t go away.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: New details shed some light on Philip Chism`s past. Legal separation papers filed 12 years ago show his father had restricted time with him because of quote "prior physical and emotional abuse as well as alcohol abuse."
PINSKY: People seem to be kind to come up with psychological explanations for this. I don`t think there`s going to be a psychological explanation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let`s talk about the drawing. That`s very right brain, special reasoning. It`s related to even athletic use, activating the body. It`s also part of the emotional brain. He`s not in necessarily his intellectual processing center, which is the place that stops you and puts your foot on the brake when you need to.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After this happened he went and had some food and then he went to see a movie.
PINSKY: That`s the chilling part.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, it would not surprise me if his family moved around a lot and knew that they had a budding serial killer in their midst.
PINSKY: There`s Danine bringing home the disturbing questions as always.
HUTT: I mean, what`s disturbing is that he allegedly killed the teacher. So, let`s start with that. But I`m fascinated by the behavior after the crime, Dr. Drew, because I can`t -- like I can`t escape anything like finding extra time. If I --
PINSKY: You`re still upset about having admitted that you`re going to do crack -- skinny --
PINSKY: You`re still worrying about that.
HUTT: I`m not worrying. No. I`m just saying that like the fact that he took the time after he killed someone to go to the movies.
OK. So, Jenny is here, obviously. The "Behavior Bureau" is back, Jennifer Keitt, Samantha Schacher, Casey Jordan, and Wendy Walsh, trying all of us to get our head around what would make a 14-year-old murder a teacher -- a teacher that everyone loved. Philip Chism has pleaded not guilty to having killed the 24-year-old Colleen Ritzer. She was his math teacher.
Now, joining us by phone is Philip`s classmate, Ariana Edwards. Ariana, thank you for joining us. The day of the murder, you actually spoke to Phillip. What did you guys talk about?
VOICE OF ARIANA EDWARDS, CLASSMATE: Well, he was in my group in English class and we were just doing like a project that was actually about a murder like we were reading short stories about murder in (INAUDIBLE) but we stopped doing it. And, we were just like making a poster on what we read on the story. And we`re just like talking casually.
PINSKY: Nothing unusual?
EDWARDS: Nothing unusual.
PINSKY: This panel has sort of wondered whether he had a crush on the teacher. Was there any evidence of that? Did you ever think that?
EDWARDS: Well I`m like hearing that a lot around school, but people in like his class that were in the class with Ms. Ritzer and him like said that he acted normal and that they wouldn`t tell from like his interactions with her.
PINSKY: Did he confide -- but I want to give the panel a chance to talk to Ariana. Sam, you got a question for her?
SCHACHER: Yes. Ariana, did Phillip ever talk about his home life, his parents? Why he moved around so much?
EDWARDS: No. We just know that he moved from Tennessee and was pretty much all we heard. And like people, some people were like speculations about like why, but they didn`t want to spread rumors.
PINSKY: What was the speculation?
EDWARDS: I`m not sure, if it`s true or not, but some people said he was in like -- he was in a gang, but then I don`t know. I don`t know if that`s true or not.
HUTT: That`s interesting.
PINSKY: Whether it`s true or not, it`s interesting that young people would spontaneously begin to think those things. Jenny, you have a question for her.
HUTT: So, Ariana, did he have real friends, close friends, people he hung out with?
EDWARDS: People said that like he definitely had a group of kids he hung out with in school, but I`m not sure if they hung out, out of school or not. I know that like people on the soccer team were friends with him, but they didn`t really like hang out with him after school. They were just there.
PINSKY: You have question for Ariana --
KEITT: Was he -- I`m sorry. Ariana, was he part of the popular group? Did he have girlfriends? Was he that outgoing kind of guy or was he reserved? Did girls find him attractive? How did the social scene look?
EDWARDS: Definitely not. Like he was definitely not like outgoing. He was definitely reserved. No one really, like, no one really knows him. He was kind of just there like no one was mean to him, I thought, but no one was like close to him or knew who he was.
PINSKY: Got it. Casey then Wendy. Casey.
JORDAN: Well, Ariana, simply, you`re describing him as reserved, but I`m wondering if he became even more reserved. Maybe was there any behavior change, maybe in the week or two before this incident happened? Because he didn`t have his homework done. He was doodling during class.
That`s why his math teacher asked him to stay after class so she could talk to him about it without humiliating him in class. I`m just wondering if this was a sudden change in his behavior?
PINSKY: Yes. Good question.
EDWARDS: I didn`t notice particularly like he was -- in classes like he just came in, did his work and left usually, because I was only in one of his classes, his English class.
PINSKY: Got it, Ariana. Wendy, finish us up here.
WALSH: So, he just started in September, and now we`re, like, what, eight weeks into the school year and this happened. So, he probably didn`t have time to form a support group, right?
Ariana, first of all, thank you for joining us and helping shed light on this. Is there anything else you think we need to know that would help us understand what went on here?
EDWARDS: I don`t think so. It`s pretty much just he was a quiet, normal kid.
PINSKY: And is everything OK? Are people recovering? The other kids right now, are they OK?
EDWARDS: Yes. We`re doing way better like pretty much normal now. Like just getting over it.
PINSKY: Thank you, Ariana. Thanks for joining us. Now, if anyone out there has a comment or question for the "Behavior Bureau," you can tweet us @DrDrewHLN #behaviorbureau.
Next, a lot of people are talking about this video, a heroin addict in full overdose, essentially dead, and what seems like a miracle brings her back. Lot more to this video that meets the eye. I will explain what this is all about and try to understand why people are getting so excited about it when we come back.
PINSKY: I`m back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. We`ve also got Samantha, Lauren, and Wendy with us on a panel, and we`re talking about a 29-year-old mother who overdoses on heroin. Jenny is upset that it`s a mother. Yes, mothers get addition, too, Jenny.
HUTT: I know. I`m not Pollyanna, Dr. Drew, but I don`t get it.
PINSKY: A powerful second drug saves her life. CNNs Sanjay Gupta recently shared this dramatic video. It`s graphic, I`m warning you, but have a look.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): And finally, Liz begins to come to.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Liz? Are you OK? You went out. We`ve given you mouth-to-mouth resuscitation. We`ve given you some Narcan. You overdosed. Can you sit up?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. Come on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Liz apparently is in treatment now, guys. She`s doing better. Again, Lauren, here`s the thing about this. Narcan`s been around for a long time. Basically, it`s an antidote to an opiate overdose, a heroin overdose. The opioids saturate the receptors, the Narcan comes in and knocks those opiates out of the receptor.
PINSKY: It reverses the opiate, basically. My question to Lauren is, the big -- the reason this made news is there`s now an intranasal. I`ve been using Narcan since I was a medical student. Everybody comes in emergency - -
HUTT: For yourself?
PINSKY: Not for myself. For anyone that comes in the emergency room with all -- gets Narcan. But there`s now an intranasal version where you can squirt it in the nose and the movement of it is allow law enforcement to carry this since they`re usually the first one to come upon these people.
Why shouldn`t, by the way, family members, why shouldn`t they have this as well, just in case someone they love who has addiction overdoses?
LAKE: Well, Dr. Drew, I`m all for saving a life, and I`m amazed by that drug and thankful that it exists. However, I have to ask, what are the side effects, long-term effects in case it gets into the hands of someone - -
PINSKY: None. None. In fact, there are implantable versions of this so can you have it going through your system all the time.
LAKE: What about a child, anybody, Dr. Drew?
PINSKY: Really, it`s one of the more -- the only problem is that you can induce severe withdrawal in a drug addict and you`ve got to be prepared to deal with that. Sam, did you have a question.
SCHACHER: Yes. I`m shocked by this drug. I had no idea that this existed. The only thing that came to my mind was that scene in "Pulp Fiction" with Uma Thurman. Is this the same drug that was used to revive her?
PINSKY: No. That was -- "Pulp Fiction" -- fiction the important word in the title. They were giving intercardiac epinephrine which really isn`t done anymore.
SCHACHER: How do we not know about this?
PINSKY: There are many versions of it now, and people actually use it to treat alcoholism, take a shot that last a month. They use it to help addicts not get intoxicated so they don`t get loaded too much. Wendy, you had a point?
WALSH: I think the real debate is, if we put this drug out on the street, does this give permission for drug users to say, oh, it doesn`t matter if I OD because my buddies got this and I`ll come right back up. My argument would be that when we had needle exchange programs in the 1980s and 1990s to reduce the HIV transmission, it didn`t create more addicts necessarily by putting needles --
PINSKY: That`s right.
WALSH: I think ultimately it`s a good thing.
PINSKY: That`s right. And I would say two things, A, it just doesn`t work -- but B, the drug addicts are not going to be enthusiastic to use this because it puts them into severe withdrawal. They feel horrible when they wake up. So, believe me, they`re not anxious to use this such as it is.
Do we want -- how much time? I got about a minute. Do you guys want to show the video we have here of how Naltrexone works? Real quickly. Because Jenny wanted me to explain it.
HUTT: I do.
PINSKY: Here comes up. We`ve got opioids coming into the receptors in the brain, see it, finding there. Now, here comes Naltrexone to knock out -- oops, that`s the --
PINSKY: And then the Naltrexone comes in and knocks it out.
PINSKY: And then you can breathe again. Basically, what happens with an opiate, you can suppress your respirations, there it is. It`s saturating all the receptors --
HUTT: Right. It stops you from breathing and this comes in and undoes the damage.
PINSKY: And then you can breathe again.
PINSKY: And again, I`m advocating very strongly that people should have it. Law enforcement should have it. It`s ridiculous -- and it becomes moralistic to not do that. Addiction is not a moral disorder, it`s a medical condition and we should have medical solutions in the hands of as many people as possible.
Thank you, panel. "Last Call" is next.
PINSKY: Back with the "Last Call." We`re going to start out with a tweet harkening back to the story about the mayor in Canada. It`s from someone who`s name -- her Twitter handle is almost -- @OhCanada, "Exactly who smokes crack only once? Yes. That mayor has got to get the boot. Love watching your team. Good work. Thank you, Nicole.
You know, it seemed to be a story that generates a lot of attention. Somebody wants us (ph) to mind our own business.
PINSKY: Well, because we`re not Canadians.
HUTT: Oh, come on. He`s a public figure. It`s fair game I think to talk about it. I think it`s important to talk about it.
PINSKY: And we`ve had second chances in this country many, many times. The politicians that get addiction, go get treatment, and they go back and they`re able to do to have an effective life. We got to go, guys. See you next time. "HLN After Dark" begins right now.
POLITAN: Thanks, Drew. Tonight on "After Dark," the prosecution wrapping up its case against Martin MacNeill. His own daughters think he did it, but did prosecutors prove it? Motive, opportunity, manner, and cause of death. Is there enough evidence? Our bold question, did the prosecution prove the doctor killed his wife? Our jury is seated and ready to see all the evidence right now on "After Dark."