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Toronto Mayor Admits to Crack Use

Aired November 6, 2013 - 21:00   ET



DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, the crack-smoking mayor admits to doing cocaine. So why is he more popular than ever? The behavior bureau is here with answers.

Plus, modern family, the Charlie Sheen episode. He has twins with his ex, who is in rehab. Another ex is taking care of the kids. She makes some shocking claims. He`s tossing grenades. We will get to the bottom of this.

And, NFL scandal, terror in the locker room. Did this player go too far with racial slurs and threats?


PINSKY: Or was he just following orders?

Let`s get started.



PINSKY: Good evening, everyone.

My co-host is attorney and Sirius XM Radio host Jenny Hutt.

Coming up, that`s right. Coming up, Charlie Sheen, you saw that in the opening. He is at it again.

But before that, we`re going back to the Toronto mayor who admitted he smoked crack, but not stepping down. He remains popular.

JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: Yes, I know why.

PINSKY: But first let`s look at this.



MAYOR ROB FORD, TORONTO: With today`s announcement, I know I embarrassed everyone in the city.

REPORTER: Do you smoke crack cocaine?

FORD: Exactly. Yes, I have smoked crack cocaine. I`m admitting my mistake was the right thing to do, and I feel like 1,000 pounds have been lifted off my shoulders.

I have nothing left to hide.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Months of secret police surveillance of Ford was made public last week in connection with the arrest of the mayor`s friend and part-time driver. But police say, so far, the mayor isn`t charged with anything.

FORD: God bless the people of Toronto.

REPORTER: God bless you, too.



PINSKY: We`re starting tonight with our behavior bureau, beginning with Judy Ho, psychologist, Cheryl Arutt, clinical and forensic psychologist, Tiffanie Davis Henry, psychologist and HLN contributor, and Danine Manette, criminal investigator and author of "Ultimate Betrayal."

After police announced they had a video of the mayor smoking crack, his popularity ratings rose five points to 44 percent.

Jenny, you say you know what`s up with that.

HUTT: I do.

PINSKY: Hold. I`m going to ask Danine first.

Danine, do you have any idea what that`s all about?

DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: You know what? I kind of do, Dr. Drew. For the last maybe decade or so, the litmus test about whether would be a good leader is whether or not you`d want a beer with them. It seems like this guy is somebody people want to have a beer with. Not too many beers, but they want to have a beer them. He seems like a regular old, everyday person. He`s not this stuff politician and I think people can relate to him. I think they just like him because he`s genuine.

PINSKY: He likes his Canadian beers, very clearly.

But, Jenny, what`s your theory?

HUTT: So, I think Danine is on to something. I don`t know that they look at him and they think, let`s have a beer and hang out. But the realness of who he`s being, Dr. Drew, the fact he`s being open about what he`s done.

PINSKY: Being open?

HUTT: It`s not that it`s OK what he as done.


PINSKY: Tiffanie, help me out with this. He denied, maneuvered and then said you guys didn`t ask me the right question. I would have told you the truth years ago if you had just asked the right question.

TIFFANIE DAVIS HENRY, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: Classic, Dr. Drew. He`s minimizing at every twist and turn. He shies away until you have the smoking gun, until you have the video, I`m not really going to admit to it.

This is a guy with a long history of things, of minimizing his inappropriate behaviors, whether it`s reading while driving, whether it`s the public drunkenness, whether it`s the DUIs, and the marijuana use, and the crack cocaine.

When you add up all the things he`s done over the past several years, you have to say, these in isolated incidences I might be able -- but as a constituent, I have a problem sweeping all of this stuff under the rug.

PINSKY: All right. Let`s review some of that.

In 2006, the mayor said he protested the spending of $1.5 million to combat AIDS, saying, quote, "If you`re not doing needle and you are not gay, you wouldn`t get AIDS probably. That`s the bottom line."

And when someone told him women are at risk for AIDS as well, he said, quote, "Maybe they`re sleeping with bisexual men."

Cheryl, there you go. He`s an informed administrator, wouldn`t you say?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A mess. A hot mess.

HUTT: No, he`s not hot.

PINSKY: Cheryl, your comment?

CHERYL ARUTT, PYSCHOLOGIST: Definitely not hot. Can I just repeat -- we are talking about smoking crack.

Hello! This is smoking crack. This is not a few things to sweep under the rug. What is the metaphor we use when things are so addictive you don`t just occasionally do them? You say they`re like crack, OK?

This is something that there`s a pattern of behavior, an incredible entitlement been and I`m watching this man looking likes he`s getting out in front of it, I direct you to show everybody this video, but I won`t acknowledge what`s actually happening in the video, and then he talks about it.

HENRY: Yes, but he was drunk. He doesn`t know what happened in the video.

PINSKY: That`s exactly right. As he said, he was in a drunken stupor.

But let me show you a piece of evidence of the drunken stupor he manifests, partying outside of Toronto bar. We`ve got this from YouTube. Take a look at this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m a big guy. Nice to meet you, buddy. Yes, all right.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How are you doing, guys? How are you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What are you saying --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re going to go up to the party, man. I want to get these kids playing football, man.


PINSKY: That was August, another incident in February where he was asked to leave a gala, because he appeared to be incoherent.

Jenny, as much as we`re sort of roaring through this, I`m very sympathetic to the guy. He has a problem, he needs help, and you say --

HUTT: Well, look, I really believe that part of why people are gravitating toward him now is because he`s so imperfect, he seems like such a loser, that at the home we feel better --

PINSKY: Not a loser, but flawed.

HUTT: Flawed and a loser. But at home, it`s like you feel better because everyone tries to be perfect and you look at people, they`re so perfect, they achieve so much because they`re so perfect, how do I ever get there? You look at him and you go, what a loser and he`s a mayor.


HENRY: I totally get, but I would have so much more empathy and respect for him and his process in recovery if he would just acknowledge here, here`s what I did, instead of minimizing it. Oh, I probably smoked.

No, you know smoked, and you knew you were drunk.

PINSKY: Judy, what`s your comment?

HENRY: Just admit it.


JUDY HO, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, you know, it`s true, but this is part of being an addict is. They do minimize and they try --

HENRY: Oh, but he`s not an addict. He`s not an addict.

PINSKY: They`re also in denial.

HO: He`s denying it, but you know what? He is somebody -- just to go off of what Jenny was saying. You know, people do like people better when there`s a little bit of a fallacy, a little bit of a problem. That`s a psychological theory. It is true.

We like it when perfect people are imperfect. It makes us like them more.

PINSKY: It`s basically the banana peel theory, which is if you see somebody well dressed who slips on a banana peel, you like them a lot more. If you`re ever going through a job interview, people, be sure to spill your coffee in your lap. It`s true, right? Judy? It`s been studied.

HO: Absolutely true. It has been studied. Somebody looks impeccable, everybody loves them. Somebody is impeccable, they have nothing on their shirt, and people are like, I hate that guy.

HUTT: Because they`re probably a killer.

HO: Well, he`s obviously not perfect. It`s very uneducated (ph) with all of his comments about HIV and gays and bisexuals, I just couldn`t stand it.

PINSKY: Before we go, I have some new video, just came in of the mayor. I`m not sure what this is going to be, in fact -- today was take your kids to work today in Toronto, so in Toronto here`s the mayor with some kids, blowing a kiss to the media. It`s take your kids to work today. He looks jolly, happy.

HUTT: Jolly. Was that a euphemism? Dr. Drew --

PINSKY: Plethoric? Is that a better word?


PINSKY: Also, those of you look at that up on the Internet, you`ll see it`s something associated with alcohol.

I also want to play a radio talk show clip. We went through this last night, but I`ve got more of it for you tonight. Bill Carroll took a call super somebody calling him Ian. Ian happened to be defending the mayor. Bill and his co-host suddenly suspected it was the mayor. This clip was posted to

Take a listen.


HOST: Rob, Mayor Ford? Mayor Ford, I know your voice. This is you, isn`t it, Mayor Ford?

CALLER: How do you know when you`re being videotaped? Do you know? OK, sorry, what was your name?

HOST: This is Bill. Is this Rob Ford?

CALLER: Bill, Bill, OK, Bill.


HOST: Hold on I`m serious. Hold on a sec.

Who I`m talking to right now?

COHOST: That`s Ian.

CALLER: How many times have you been videotaped last week?

HOST: The times I`ve looked into the camera? Once.

CALLER: Oh, yes, you looked at the camera once. How do you know what you do exactly? There`s cameras everywhere? OK, so you`re telling me he goes around and videotapes himself smoking crack.


PINSKY: CNN, of course, has not been able to authenticate the claim that that was the mayor. We reached out to the mayor`s office for comment on this, but did not hear back.

Cheryl, you were trying to get something in there. What do you want to say?

ARUTT: Well, I was listening to everybody. I think the other thing that people tend to love is a reformed sinner. When somebody does a mea culpa and says, I made a mistake. I did something wrong, but they had to back it up with something.

He can definitely have a peak in the ratings, if -- and I think he`s been coached well by some spin doctors here. But to say, yes, I made a mistake, but the bottom line is, what are you going to do about it now?

If he just goes back to what he`s doing, he says, I don`t have anything left to hide now, I`m thinking unless -- except your stash -- you know, you need to may have to do something.

PINSKY: Danine has a way of always taking these things to some place that I find troubling. But I was wondering what are you thinking about this?

MANETTE: I`m thinking that at the end of the day, Dr. Drew, according to his constituents, he`s doing a good job. If anyone believes there aren`t politicians that aren`t getting drunk, that are doing drugs, that are concerting with the enemy or with, you now, known criminals, then they`re living up a rock.

So the fact of the matter is he`s doing a good job, they`re not getting rid of him, because he has no shame. So, they`re going to have to either find a way to arrest him, which, you know, I think he`s committed a crime. You know, if they don`t find a way --

PINSKY: He`s admitting it.

MANETTE: They`ll just have to deal with him.

PINSKY: Probably, perhaps.

I want to show you something that the Jimmy Kimmel did a bit from ABC. Take a look at this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Loss of balance.

Sudden fits of rage.

FORD: Get off my property! Get off my property!

REPORTER: I`m leaving.

FORD: Get off my property.

REPORTER: I`m leaving.

FORD: Thank you. Thank you very much.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Denies smoking crack.

FORD: I do not use crack cocaine.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Admits to smoking crack.

FORD: Yes, I have smoked crack cocaine.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s how to tell if your mayor is smoking crack.


PINSKY: It`s funny, guys, and I thank you all for your comments, but it`s not funny, because this man has as life-threatening condition. You all -- I understand you like him, and his ratings are up and I understand he`s probably a good administrator. This man is going to die of alcoholism.


PINSKY: What no? He`s going to die of alcoholism.

HUTT: No, I meant we don`t want to hang out with him.


ARUTT: He has a family.

PINSKY: I`m sure on behalf of the citizens of Toronto, they seem to like him. I`m all cool with that. But something`s got to be done. I think you give this man a chance to take time off work, like you would anybody else to take care of the medical problem, this disease that`s fatal and deadly. Let`s not forget that,

And now he`s an obese gentleman, who is dabbling with crack. He`s had some cardiac issues. I`m very concerned about this. Please let him get his medical problem taken care of and then let him get on with being the mayor. That`s what I`m saying.

Thank you, panel.

We`re going to have more on the story after the break.

And later, watch a pro-football player terror iced about is hi own teammate. We have a Miami Dolphin here to talk with us about the locker room behavior.

Back after this.



PINSKY: Scandal, a big city mayor admits to smoking crack.

REPORTER: Do you smoke crack cocaine?

FORD: Exactly. Yes, I have smoked crack cocaine.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Look, this is the mayor. This is the person who runs the city, who sets policies, who sets laws and regulations. You want them to be a little higher than everybody else.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Even a white dress shirt and he looks completely out of it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We want them to be higher.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He got -- he got that part down.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s the problem. He is higher than everybody else.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host Jenny Hutt.

Jenny, I think the Canadians are enjoying this attention. If Twitter is any measure of what`s going on up there, they like the fact that Toronto is suddenly being discussed.

Look at this tweet. This is from Jen. She`s at (INAUDIBLE). "This is embarrassing. As a resident of Toronto, I am not impressed".

You could see the -- there it is. Our hockey team sucks and our mayor smokes crack -- it`s all in good fun. C`mon, relax.

Joining us to discuss this further: Segun Oduolowu, social commentator, and Lynn Berry, HLN anchor, Anahita Sedaghatfar, defense attorney, and Emily Miller senior editor of opinion for "The Washington Times". She`s also the author of "Emily Gets Her Gun".

Segun, you first. Do you think this man should step down or are you cool with him?

SEGUN ODUOLOWU, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: I won`t say I`m cool with him but I don`t think he should step down. First of and foremost, he`s an elected official. So, if anything, he represents his constituents. They put him in office. If they don`t like the way he`s behaving, let it be shown at the polls.

For him to step down? Not at all. The people are coming out to kick a man when he`s down. He`s obviously dealing with demons.

The panel that came on before us, they talked about the way he spoke, about the way he looked, about his body. And they made fun of him, saying he`s not educated. Like that`s all fun and good.

But here`s a man who is obviously battling an addiction. To kick a man when he`s down, I mean, I was flabbergasted at the callousness of you people.

PINSKY: Emily, go.

EMILY MILLER, WASHINGTON TIMES: I don`t even know where to start. First of all, this player is political roadkill. It`s just a matter of time before he`s out of office. You are held to a higher standard when you`re in political office, which means no smoking the crack pipe. I mean, it`s just kind of simple.


PINSKY: Go ahead, Segun.

MILLER: He can -- he`ll be able to hang on probably for a week or two, then he`ll most likely, I`ve been in Washington a long time, I`ve seen these come and gone. He`ll probably say I`m going to rehab for a while to try to save his career. He`s not up for reelection for a year. So, he could technically stand up. The political pressure is going to be tough. I give it a couple weeks before he`s out.

PINSKY: Listen, we are discussing political figures.

Now, former D.C. Mayor Marion Barry was weighing in. Mayor Barry received a tweet that red he, means Rob Ford, was the only other notable mayor to do crack other than Barry. And Barry tweeted back, no, no, to get caught doing crack. Do you really want to know how many politicians overcame or still struggle with addiction.

And I think, Segun, that is your point.

ODOUWOLU: That`s exactly my point.

PINSKY: And, Emily, you tweeted that.

MILLER: I did.

PINSKY: What are your thoughts?

MILLER: So, I mean, Marion Barry here is the biggest joke obviously. He`s still the laughingstock of this country because he was mayor of D.C., got caught smoking crack with a prostitute, and somehow in his district, which is district 8 in Washington, got reelected in city council where he still is, and the man is defending smoking crack last night on Twitter. So, of course, I retweeted it.


ODOUWOLU: Emily, if I may, the fact that you just said that he`s a joke, he got reelected. So, I would say the joke is on you.

MILLER: Not mayor.

ODOUWOLU: You just said that a mayor is political road kill. He is - -

MILLER: He is the punchline --

ODOUWOLU: Mayor Marion Barry got caught smoking crack with a prostitute and got reelected.

MILLER: Don`t you think that your elected officials should be held to a slightly higher standard than being a punchline of the bitch set me up joke?

ODOUWOLU: They`re politicians. They`re not reverends. They`re not men of the cloth.

PINSKY: Hold it, hold it. Jenny?

HUTT: So, Segun, I don`t believe this is about kicking somebody when he`s down. I think he`s made a lot of public statements that have sort of warranted some kind of response. In terms of the comment about his appearance, look, his appearance is something that shouldn`t be ignored just because he`s overweight.

PINSKY: Governor Chris Christie has to take --

HUTT: By the way, I used to be fat. People talked about it all the time.

ODOUWOLU: So because he`s overweight we should talk about it?


HUTT: No, it`s part of the whole picture.

PINSKY: I`m very sympathetic to this man. I think he needs an opportunity to deal with his problems.

ODOUWOLU: Thank you, Dr. Drew.


LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST: I challenge any television producer to string together the political scandals that we have seen in the last decade or 20 years that, if you took their apology, their initial apology, you would see a consistent theme. They`ll apologize for weeks and weeks and hope there`s some other news story and this will fall into the back burner.

If there is a huge news story and this falls to the back burner, I guarantee you he will stay in the office. He`s hedging his bets to see whether or not his apology --

PINSKY: Anahita?

ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, ATTORNEY: Dr. Drew, what is it with mayors not wanting to resign? We saw that with the mayor of San Diego and that whole debacle where he sexually harassed numerous women, he grabbed their breasts, he stuck his tong down someone`s throat, saying, I didn`t know it was harassment, no one trained me, and he didn`t want to resign, either.

So, what is it? Is it that they`re narcissists, that they have egos? Why wouldn`t he resign and like you said, get the help he needs? Clearly he has some drug and alcohol issues. Staying in office --


PINSKY: I can`t hear anybody right now. I`m sorry. Hold on here. Emily, I`m going to have you finish it off.

But I`m just going to say one thing. The tweet, Emily you retweeted today was the first time I`ve seen evidence of his in recovery. Hats off to him. And I`m just -- the language he used suggested to me he understands what he`s dealing with and maybe he can make a come back and I think anyone should come to him but finish it off here.

MILLER: The Marion Barry thing is old news, but here`s the thing. This elected office is serious job that should be taken seriously, that you take an oath to obey the laws and make laws. So, this is not a therapist house, it`s not rehab.

So, Bob Filner in San Diego, Ford in Toronto, look at Eliot Spitzer, these people have broken the law. So when you break the law, you no longer should be in office. Very simple.


PINSKY: Anahita, we`re going to leave it right there. Thank you for --

SEDAGHATFAR: I have so much to say.

PINSKY: I know we do. We can keep going to this. We`ve got a crazy story next.

A pro football player has been suspended for allegedly terrorizing his teammate. Did coaches tell him to terrorize the teammate?

And I`m very excited about this. We one of his former teammates, Ricky Williams will join us in the behavior bureau and give us his thoughts.

And later on, Charlie Sheen`s custody battle gets really, really nasty.

Back after this.



RICHIE INCOGNITO, NFL PLAYER: Hi, I`m Richie Incognito. On the field, players have called me overly aggressive. We greatly appreciate you guys being loud and proud for the Dolphins, but please be respectful, civilized and follow the fan code of conduct.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt.

HUTT: Wow. I think maybe he should just play some more cricket, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: He looks pretty reasonable, but NFL player Richie Incognito has been suspended indefinitely for the Miami Dolphins, for terrorizing a teammate, Jonathan Martin, a hate-filled voicemail has surfaced in which Incognito allegedly calls Martin the "N" word and threatens to kill him. A newspaper report says that higher-ups told Incognito to go after Martin to, quote, "toughen him up".

Take a look at this.


INCOGNITO: I`m just trying to weather the storm.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Yesterday, the Dolphins suspended Richie Incognito for what it called detrimental conduct.

UNDIENTIFIED MALE: Do not draft because of character. Richie Incognito was in that category.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Incognito was not only overly aggressive on the field, but off it as well.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Voicemails from Incognito to Martin, including one that said, quote, hey, what`s up you half-blank piece of blank.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I saw you on Twitter you`ve been training ten weeks. I`ll blank in your blank mouth.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m going to slap your real mother across the face.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To Jonathan Martin, the apparent victim has recently checked himself into a hospital for emotional distress.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Fort Lauderdale Sun Sentinel reports Dolphins coaches asked Incognito to toughen up Martin.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At no time were there allegations of misconduct by any members of this team.


PINSKY: Let us bring back our behavior bureau, Judy, Cheryl, Tiffanie and Danine.

Danine, let me just say, I`m a little uncomfortable with this story, because football is an aggressive environment. It`s sort of gets out of control sometimes. Should we really be judging this so much?

Let`s talk about it.

MANETTE: See, that`s the thing. That`s the thing, Dr. Drew.

I feel like, you know, Incognito, he went over the top, he went over the edge. I have no doubt in my mind honestly that he was asked to do that by higher ups and now, he`s being thrown under the bus. I get that.

But I also know this is a different kind of environment. People are comparing this to normal work environments. It`s just not the same thing. You have to be mentally, physically and emotional tough to play in the NFL.

There are just certain places that this -- you have to get into the psyche and the mind of your opposing player. If you can`t do that, then you`re a detriment to your team. I look at this kind of like as if a Navy SEAL -- he was going to quit the Navy SEALs because of the fact that he was being bullied. People would say maybe that`s not the job for you --


PINSKY: Cheryl, is it a normal work environment -- should it have the same constraints as a normal work environment, even though it`s not?

ARUTT: It`s interesting that Danine just compared to Navy SEALs, because football is a metaphor for war. You`re trying to take territory. There`s trash talking.

You do need to be tough, but this is so hateful and hits on so many things that go so far over the line. I have to say as a psychologist it makes me sad that their idea of toughening someone up is attacking them in this kind of way.

I don`t think it`s appropriate. I think we should have parameters.

PINSKY: Tiffanie, you agree?

HENRY: Yes, I kind of -- I think I fall somewhere in the middle of Cheryl and Danine. I really feel like this isn`t the first time we`ve heard about ritualistic, rites of passage, these things that go on, things like getting a funny haircut, or carrying pads, or having to pay for a dinner, this went well beyond that.

And this was not a rookie. Jonathan Martin isn`t a rookie. He`s in his second year. So any of that stuff that was happening maybe as a rite of passage should have stopped, and the fact that the higher-ups in the Dolphins organization fixed this goon on him? It`s pathetic. It`s absolutely pathetic.


DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Go ahead, Danine. Go ahead.

MANETTE: I look at this kind of like a stripper kind of claiming sexual harassment. I mean, there`s just certainly things that go with certain jobs.


PINSKY: I`m not sure we`re that conflicted about this. Judy, I`m going to play you a video. It`s from TMZ showing Incognito in a bar kind of out of control. I want you to take a look at this and you tell me if something occurs to you about his behavior here. Go ahead. Play it.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Listen. I need --


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re the best man at my wedding.


PINSKY: Judy, before you comment, we have reached out to Incognito for comment, but we have not heard that. So, Judy, any -- I have two things that jumped right into my mind, but what do you think?

JUDY HO, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, this is clearly a guy that has a definitive aggression problem. And it`s been demonstrated on video. His coaches should know about it. And so, for the coaches to say, hey, why don`t you go toughen this guy up, I feel like they should have known that he would --

PINSKY: Well, who he going to send in? Are you going to send in the guy that`s not aggressive? Two things occur to me. One is steroids --


PINSKY: And secondly --

HO: But they test for that.

PINSKY: Well, whatever. Hypomania. He`s in sort of a hypomanic state.


HO: And he is very kind of in his own mind. I mean, at that point --

PINSKY: That`s the manic.

HO: It doesn`t matter. He thinks he can get away with everything.


PINSKY: OK. So, here`s what I want to do. I want to bring in Rickey Williams who, by the way, I`m really excited to talk to. He is a former teammate of Richie Incognito. He`s in Miami. Ricky, first of all, I`m a huge fan and thank you for joining us. I really do appreciate you sort of having a shed some light on this. I hope you heard that we`ve got a panel of professionals that all are sort of ambivalent about this. Where do you fall? What do you think this was all about?

VOICE OF RICKY WILLIAMS, FORMER MIAMI DOLPHINS RUNNING BACK: Well, I mean, you know, I think i have a different point of view, being that I did play in the NFL for 11 years. And, I`ve kind of been in everyone`s position. I mean, I don`t think I have aggression problems, but you know, I was at a point where, you know, I didn`t want to play in the NFL anymore, and I took a break, and then I came back.

And I know Richie. I don`t know Jonathan. I know something about the Dolphins organization, and where I fall is -- it`s interesting. It`s an interesting story to me. What`s more interesting is the way it`s being covered by the media, because I think what occurs and what`s required of football players is you can`t really compare for the rest of society.

PINSKY: Well, that`s kind of where -- that`s where Danine started our conversation was saying that this sort of, I guess, warrior mentality, but I`m still confused by your position. Is your position that --

WILLIAMS: I don`t have a position. I don`t have a position.

PINSKY: No, no. I don`t mean that you`re taking sides. I mean, you help us understand this that this is just the way -- this is business as usual in the NFL kind of thing?

WILLIAMS: I mean, you can`t really say it`s business as usual, because every team, every player is different situation, but I think what is allowed, you know, in the locker room and in the context of being a football player, it`s a different -- it`s a different set of rules.

PINSKY: OK. Ricky, I would ask you to please stay with me. I`m going to bring in another panel and I would like them to be able to ask you some questions as well. So, are you willing to stay? Can you stay with me?

WILLIAMS: Yes. I`m here.

PINSKY: OK. Perfect. OK. "Behavior Bureau," thank you. Ricky stays. We`ll have more on the story. And if you have a comment or question for the "Behavior Bureau," please tweet us @DrDrewHLN #BehaviorBureau. Back after this.

VINNIE POLITAN, HLN ANCHOR: Coming up at the top of the hour on "HLN After Dark," Dr. MacNeill accused of murdering his wife to be with his mistress. Well, his mistress, Gypsy, back on the witness stand tomorrow morning, and a lot of suspicion involving her alleged involvement.

RYAN SMITH, HLN ANCHOR: That`s right. So, you know what we`re doing tonight. We`re talking about alibis with our in-studio jury. Who had the better alibi? The doctor or the mistress?

POLITAN: Hmm, what is her alibi? Miles away, top of the hour, trust me.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All i know about Richie is he`s a great teammate to me. Does they like to give guys a hard time? Yes. Does he like to pester guys and have fun? Yes. But he brought a lot of laughter in this locker room, a lot of cohesiveness to this locker room, and he was the best teammate that I could ask for.


PINSKY: Welcome back. My co-host, Jenny Hutt, is here with me. We`re discussing the NFL scandal in which one player allegedly tormented another, calling him the "N" word, trying to kill him. We don`t know -- I mean -- OK. Back with us, Segun, Lynn, Anahita, Emily, and I have Rickey Williams on the phone, former teammate of Incognito.

Ricky, again, I`m still trying to get my head around how you feel about this. I heard you say on a radio interview that you felt that if somebody plays a victim or feels victimized by what goes on in the locker rooms and in the game of pro-football, maybe they don`t belong in that game.

WILLIAMS: Yes. I did say that. And you know, when I first heard the story, you know, it was strange to me to hear the word bullying in the same sentence as the NFL, because so much of what we do, dealing with the coaches, dealing with each other, dealing with the other team would be considered bullying. So it just didn`t really make sense to me.

PINSKY: I want to give my panel a chance to ask you guys some questions. Lynn, go ahead.

LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST: You know, it seems I have not heard one football player take the side of Martin. I`ve actually heard some of football players say this is going to hurt him more than anyone else. And I`ve actually heard the argument from the actual quarterback of the Dolphins right now that these two were best friends. What is he talking about?

PINSKY: Were they?


BERRY: So, I would ask, is this just the no-snitch mentality that this is a fraternity? That if you go against a teammate, that you`re going to be thrown out there? Because Ricky, I don`t hear you really taking his side or are you just protecting yourself as well?

WILLIAMS: Well, I`m not sure what I`m protecting myself against since I don`t play in the NFL. And I think the first thing is that --

BERRY: Just your reputation.

WILLIAMS: Well, I mean, if you know any history, I don`t care about my reputation. So, for me, the truth is everyone is calling it an issue. And so, if you guys decide it`s an issue and to us, it`s not an issue, anything we say is going to be considered defensive.


EMILY MILLER, SENIOR EDITOR OF OPINION, WASHINGTON TIMES: I see what Ricky is saying, and I sort of have the same impression of this story. I mean, the word bullying gets thrown away so much when it comes to teenagers and kids, it`s an issue. When it comes to multimillion dollar football players? It`s not an issue.

I mean, this guy -- Martin is fully capable of leaving the team, he`s fully capable of quitting, he`s fully capable of defending himself. I mean, he`s not a victim. I mean, let`s look at victims who feel like can`t defend themselves.

PINSKY: Segun.

SEGUN ODUOLOWU, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Wait, wait, like what I`m hearing from everyone is so maddening. First of all, Ricky, I`m a fan of yours and I`ve been for a long time, but some of what you said to me is downright appalling. You left football in large part because of what the sport and the atmosphere not only demands of you, but can turn you into. This is not an isolated incident with this guy.

He was kicked off football teams in college. He was voted as one of the dirtiest players in the NFL, and the Dolphins organization knew that about him, and they let him loose in a locker room. So, for you to sit there as a former football player and say I don`t have a real thought about this is borderline disgusting.


PINSKY: Ricky?

WILLIAMS: No, no, it`s fine. I can be disgusting and I can be appalling, and I can actually enjoy being both of them. That really has nothing to do with what it is. I mean, it`s easy for people to stand on the outside who have never been in a locker room, who have never put on the pads, who have never experienced what it means --

ODUOLOWU: I played college sports. I played college sports. So, before you make that comment, I played college sports at the University of Houston in Texas, down the street from where you played at U.T. So, I didn`t put pads on. I was in locker rooms. And that kind of behavior, it`s never tolerated anywhere. Abuse is abuse.

PINSKY: I want to hear from Anahita. Go ahead.


PINSKY: Hang on. Anahita, please.

ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, ATTORNEY: Yes. First of all, I don`t think you`re disgusting at all or appalling. I agree that this is football. The nature of football is violence. I mean, we reward players for doing this on the field. My only question to you is the use of the "N" word. Now, that`s probably the only thing --



SEDAGHATFAR: Yes. So, I was saying that`s really the only thing that I find problematic about this entire case and I`m just wondering is that common place? Is that offensive to you?

PINSKY: Ricky.

WILLIAMS: OK. First of all, it`s not offensive to me, and I think if you went in any locker room in the NFL and you had a tape recorder, you would hear that word at least 50 times a day.


PINSKY: That`s news to me, Ricky. I did not know that. You know, on one hand, I`m appalled, and on the other hand I`m relieved, because you`ve taken the power out of the word in an interesting way.


WILLIAMS: Exactly.

ODUOLOWU: but that doesn`t make it OK.

PINSKY: Segun, I understand on the outside we get offended --

BERRY: I this think Ricky is proving that Segun can`t bully him. That`s for sure.


PINSKY: Emily, your thoughts.

ODUOLOWU: You find that funny. You think that throwing the word bullying around makes that funny. That`s not a funny comment.


PINSKY: One at a time.

ODUOLOWU: Because the word is used doesn`t make it right.

PINSKY: OK. Emily.

MILLER: I think what Segun is just so far off-base here. We`ll look for victims. Multimillion dollar football players who are getting calls from their teammates and scared and called names. It`s been happening all the time. It`s not a victim and let`s focus on what`s important.

PINSKY: OK. I want Ricky to take it home here. Ricky --

ODUOLOWU: A 24-year-old kid.

PINSKY: I understand. Ricky, where do you want this story to go? Let it just die of a quiet death or should we learn something from this?

WILLIAMS: Well, I mean, I think there`s a lot to learn about it. And I think, you know, if you look at the word bullying and you look at the "N" word, I think if people can learn -- in the NFL, in the locker room, that stuff we can laugh at. And I think it`s everyone can laugh at those kinds of things, the charge and the hilarity and -- that it causes starts to disappear.

And I think, you know, this story is blown way out of proportion. And I think underneath it, there`s a real story. And I think once we stop, you know, the sensationalism and really ask the right questions, I think we can get to what`s actually underneath it.


PINSKY: What is it?

WILLIAMS: It`s that the NFL isn`t for everyone, period. And that means -- that means the people that don`t understand -- and I was one of the people that the NFL wasn`t for me. It was a miracle that I survived 11 years. It doesn`t make it right, doesn`t make it wrong. It`s the same way the military is not for everyone.

PINSKY: All right. I got to go. I`m up against the clock. Ricky, thank you for joining us. Thank you, panel.

Next up, Charlie Sheen going to war with his latest ex-wife and their twin boys caught in that crossfire. We`ll be right back after this.


PINSKY: Welcome back. Here with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. And a quick tweet. It is from none other than Wendy Williams. If you can put that up there, @WendyWilliams, "I`m so sleepy, come on. Get your kids now. All i hear in the house is banging bass and loud kids. Shut up. I`m trying to watch Dr. Drew."


PINSKY: Thank you, Wendy. I`ll see you in a couple weeks. Come out and do your show.

JENNY HUTT, ATTORNEY: Hey, Wendy. How are you doin`?

PINSKY: Of course, we have to say that.

HUTT: Of course. I love her.

PINSKY: Next up, Charlie Sheen is calling his ex-wife, Brooke Mueller, incompetent and says she is an unfit mother for their four-year- old twins. Interestingly, neither of them are parenting the twins right now. He says visits with their moms turned them the boys into little monsters. Listen to what he told TMZ.


CHARLIE SHEEN, ACTOR: When they leave for the visits with her, they`re fine, and when they come back, they`re completely incorrigible. They`re completely -- there`s no logic, there`s no rationale. They throw stuff at the girls. They kick the dogs. They attack Denise. It`s Jekyll and Hyde behavior that is a direct result from the visits at Brook`s house.


PINSKY: CNN has reached out to all parties involved. Charlie Sheen has declined to comment. Representatives for Denise Richard and Brooke Mueller have not responded. Let me bring back in my "Behavior Bureau," Judy Ho, Tiffanie Davis Henry, Danine Manette, and we should note that Denise Richards has been caring for the twins, because neither parent was deemed fit to care for them.

HUTT: She`s amazing.

PINSKY: And Jenny, I`m sympathetic to all parties here once again. But Jenny, you had a question about this.

HUTT: I do. I just -- is it ever OK for a parent to trash the other parent? It just seems so ugly and not OK for the children. It`s not in the best interests of the children.

PINSKY: -- full couple of our panel members. Judy, starting with you. When people are in a dispute, when they fight, get the kids in the middle, is that ever OK?

HO: It`s never okay, but it happens 99 percent of the time. The kids are used as weapons. And they`re being forced to choose sides. And unfortunately, this is one of those cases, and there`s three parents involved, three people who are trying to care for these kids. Everybody has got a different version of the story, but you know, this is another way that our system has failed us. I know DCFS is trying their best, but we hear these stories over and over again, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: But you know, and Tiffanie -- Brooke is working on herself trying to get treatment. Charlie has done his thing. He`s way better. This could go OK, could it not?

HENRY: It could, but it can`t go -- here`s the thing. I`m most concerned about these kids, because they`re not actively in some sort of treatment. I disagree with the way that Charlie has kind of handled this and put Brooke on blast and said all of these things via Twitter.

PINSKY: Agree.

HENRY: However, I think the intent behind what he`s doing, you know, we have to give him some credit here. He`s concerned about the kids. He`s concerned about their safety.


HENRY: Denise can`t have them.

PINSKY: Well, I want to take a quick break. Danine, I know you always have something provocative to say. We`ll get to that right after this break.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt, along with our "Behavior Bureau," Judy Ho, Tiffanie Davis Henry, and Danine Manette. We`re discussing Charlie Sheen who has taken some really public shots at his ex. Take a look at this. It`s a photo sent to Brooke via Twitter. It`s -- very nice, it was sort of -- had some --

HUTT: How`s the tiger blood?

PINSKY: Well, in fact, there were things in the tweet that were too explicit to be mentioned on television, but Danine, I want to get your input. Go ahead. What do you think of all this?

MANETTE: Yes. Dr. Drew, blasting his ex-wife out on Twitter is not the plan here. That`s just not a good plan. What he needs to do is take a break from his show and take some time to go to some parenting classes, to do whatever it takes to show this court that he`s the best parent choice for these children. He needs to hire a private investigator to dig up some dirt on her. He got plenty of --


PINSKY: Why doesn`t everybody get in the room.

MANETTE: The reason most good fathers loose custody battles is because they don`t have the money to fight the mom --

PINSKY: I`m not sure this is about custody, though.

MANETTE: He has enough money to do that.

PINSKY: Tiffanie, you`re shaking your head no. I think everyone should get in the room and like -- and do some --

HENRY: Group therapy, Dr. Drew?


HENRY: They got to do a lot of work, Dr. Drew. And my thing is, what they can`t do is send these kids -- the bottom line, even if this stuff wasn`t going on with the kids, whatever is allegedly going on, if that wasn`t going on, these kids should be in therapy anyway. They`ve been tossed from house to house to house.


PINSKY: Even if they weren`t tossed around, just having a parent, let alone two parent, a parent with addiction is grounds to really treat the kids.

HENRY: What they can`t do, what they can`t do is send the kids to therapy and not go themselves.

HUTT: Of course.

PINSKY: But they are. Listen, I know -- I believe that people in that group are really working hard. That`s why I wish them the best. And I think it`s sad that we`re look in all this public.

HUTT: Get off Twitter.


PINSKY: Thank you, panel. We`ve got to go. "Last Call" is next.


PINSKY: Time for the "Last Call." I want to give that to Jenny Hutt. We`re reacting to a tweet from @UrbanDialogue and she takes issue -- I think it`s a she -- with what we said about the blocker conversation about the "N" word. And Jenny, you want to say something about that.

HUTT: Well, I learned this from Oprah. The fact is that the "N" was the last thing that black men heard years ago before they were hanged. It`s just not OK.

PINSKY: It`s not OK. And I wasn`t meaning to say that the power has taken out of the word. She was saying that is only for -- not for somebody like me to say. I actually agree with you. So, thank you for that comment. We`ll look for you guys on Twitter. And thank you all for watching. Thank you, Jenny. Great job.

HUTT: Thanks.

PINSKY: "HLN After Dark" will begin right now.