Return to Transcripts main page


Betrayal in the NFL?

Aired November 11, 2013 - 21:00   ET



DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, the NFL players at the center of a hazing scandal. He admits he used racial slurs and threats, but says he`s not a racist. It`s all just part of the game. We will hear from him in the behavior bureau.

Plus, Miley Cyrus, posting topless pics, smoking a joint on stage. You might be surprised what I have to say about her.

And is Toronto`s crack mayor headed to rehab?

Let`s get started.



PINSKY: Good evening, everyone.

My co-host is attorney and Sirius XM Radio host Jenny Hutt.

Jenny, Richie Incognito, the NFL player at the center of a hazing scandal, is defending himself. He says that everything he did, including using the N-word towards his teammate and threatening to kill him, he did out of love. Take a look --

JENNY HUTT, RADIO HOST: Well, look, Dr. Drew, I think -- oh.

PINSKY: Jenny, go ahead.

HUTT: I was just going to say, I think everybody has a different way of expressing love and adoration. His way, not exactly what I`m comfortable with.

PINSKY: Fair enough. Take a look at this.


RICHIE INCOGNITO, NFL PLAYER: I`m not a racist. And to judge me by that one word is wrong.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Incognito is accused of taking the hazing of Martin too far, including leaving him a threatening and racist voicemail.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, wassup, you half N-word piece of blank.

INCOGNITO: That`s how we communicate. That`s how our friendship was.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dolphins coaches asked Incognito to toughen up Martin.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m going to slap your real mother across the face.

INCOGNITO: My actions were coming from a place of love.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re still a rookie, I`ll kill you.

INCOGNITO: I`ve taken stuff too far, and I didn`t know it was hurting him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jonathan endured a malicious physical attack on him by a teammate, and daily vulgar comments.

INCOGNITO: It sounds like I`m a racist pig. It sounds like I`m a meathead. It sounds like a lot of things that it`s not.


PINSKY: Joining us to discuss: Lynn Berry, HLN host; Segun Oduolowu, social commentator; Mark Eiglarsh, attorney at; and Kinsey Scofield, social media commentator.

Now, many of Incognito`s teammates are on Incognito`s side, saying it`s just part of pro-football locker room`s culture. Segun, does that make it OK?

SEGUN ODUOLOWU, COMMENTATOR: You know, Dr. Drew, I don`t think it makes OK. And we must allow for the fact that just because of the culture of an NFL locker room would not be what we saw on the trading floor of the stock exchange or in a department store at Wal-Mart, does not mean that it`s OK. For a long time, we`ve had several cultures in our society that were either defended and were considered the norm, that were proven later on to be wrong.

So, if it`s wrong there, it`s wrong everywhere. And to say that it`s a culture of an NFL locker room, I don`t think they`re having these types of problems at the Patriots, in the San Francisco 49ers.

You don`t see these types of things popping up at Stanford, at Alabama, at Oregon? To say it`s the culture of a football locker room is to stretch it past, you know, credibility understanding. It`s wrong. And because it`s wrong, let`s just treat it as wrong.

PINSKY: Now, there were nearly 1,200 texts exchanged between Incognito and Martin. Kinsey, do you make anything of that?

KINSEY SCHOFIELD, SOCIAL MEDIA COMMENTATOR: I look at that number and can`t help by think about Jodi Arias and Travis Alexander. Are they in love with each other? I can`t tell you who I`ve exchanged those types of messages with. I think that that number is absolutely ridiculous.

PINSKY: Jenny, no?

HUTT: Yes. No, I mean, I`m an over-texter by nature. So, I tend to over text. I could have 1,000 texts with God knows who, suddenly.

SCHOFIELD: Well, Jenny, I need more friends, you should text me.

HUTT: All right. I will. I`ll text you.

But wait, let me just finish. The issue I have, going back to Segun, the issue that I had isn`t necessarily that the culture in the locker room is all wrong within the locker room, because we talked the last time, Dr. Drew, right, about sort of being like football is war.

However, because Incognito was doing this behavior to somebody who was not welcoming it, that`s my issue. If they were both consenting to that kind of talk, it would be one thing. But clearly --

PINSKY: Mark, does that make a difference?

MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Of course, it does.

And by the way, Drew, let me just make very clear -- I hate you. And by the way, that`s the new "I love you", apparently.

PINKSY: No, no, you have to hurl something about my heritage, and you have to actually hit me. You`re not even close yet. You`re not there yet.

EIGLARSH: If that`s what you want, I will.

My point is it really does come down to what each side wants and what`s acceptable. If Martin felt like it was creating a hostile work environmental, then that`s a different story. We don`t know what he`s saying. We`ve only heard from Incognito and Martin`s lawyer. I want to know what Martin has to say.

PINSKY: And, Kinsey, you want to say something there. What`s up?

SCHOFIELD: Well, you know, in that interview, Incognito did show us that Martin had sent him a text message threatening to kill his family. So, what`s with that?

PINSKY: Yes, yes. Well, yes, let`s take a look at that.

Lynn, I want you to help with this. Take a look at this -- it was a text from Martin to Incognito. This is a clip from FOX. Take a look at this, FOX Sports.


INCOGNITO: He texted me and said, I don`t blame you guys, I blame some stuff in the locker room, I blame the culture, I blame what was going on around me.

When all this stuff got going, swirling and bullying got attached to it, and my name got attached to it, I just texted him as a friend, and I was like, what`s up with this, man? And he said, it`s not coming from me. I haven`t said anything to anybody.


PINSKY: Lynn, help me understand all that.

LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST: OK. So this text message you were just talking about came a week before all of this went down. It was from Martin to Incognito and said I will murder your whole F-ing family. And Incognito said this was just the culture.

PINSKY: They let you talk like that on HLN, Lynn? I`m shocked.

BERRY: I know. Whether you think -- whether you agree that that`s OK, but then he texted after the whole scandal broke and he texted to Martin, what`s going on? Why aren`t you standing up for me? Martin said - - world`s gone crazy, LOL. I`m good, though. Congrats on the win.

This is a culture in the NFL, Segun, it`s happening in every single locker room. You can say what you want, whether you agree with it or not.

But one thing I will ask all of you, is when Paula Deen was accused of saying the "N" word, everyone was up in arms. She lost an empire over it. Why is there a different standard being applied here?

ODOULOWU: OK. Can I get to the point of why it`s a different standard? First, let`s allow for Incognito to be a monster. Let`s just say he is either crass or a little bit crude. He was set upon by management. As we know, fish rot from the head down. And apparently so do the Dolphins.

Because Martin actually brought this to his agent, who took it to the general manager of the Dolphins, Mr. Ireland, who said why doesn`t he punch Incognito in the mouth? To settle a bad situation with more violence, the same Incognito who`s been kicked off two college teams, deemed the dirtiest player in -- it feels like it`s "A Few Good Men." I`ve said it before that they ordered a code red, and first of all, everyone who either knew about it on the Dolphins locker room that`s upper management, that did nothing about it, should be fired. Anyone in the Dolphins locker room who didn`t know what was going on, it`s called a lack of institutional control.


BERRY: Why was there a different --

PINSKY: Go ahead, Lynn?

BERRY: Why was there a different standard applied to Paula Deen?

ODOULOWU: We`re talking about NFL players, we`re talking about an NFL locker room, where we are dealing with coarse men who we want to be aggressive, as opposed to a talk show host who has a cooking show.


BERRY: So, we want them to be aggressive and use the N-word? So, it`s OK for someone to be aggressive and use the N-word?

ODOULOWU: Pardon me?

BERRY: It`s OK for a white man to use the N-word.

ODOULOWU: No, it`s never OK. I`ve said the whole action is wrong. I`ve never absolved Incognito for using the word. Incognito is wrong for using the word. Paula Deen was wrong for using the word. It`s wrong.

PINSKY: I want to interrupt because my producing staff is going to tell me. Can we bring Ricky Williams in early? They`re going to get him on the phone.

ODOULOWU: Bringing Rickey back?

PINSKY: Yes, I want to bring Ricky back, he was available, and I`d like his take. He`s on the inside of all of this, and defending it just last week, saying it`s just part of the character.

I also wonder, Kinsey, you know, the military has a long history of hazing and stuff, too. Is this something that we should be -- is it overreached to get involved with this?

Or are we really -- I`m just trying to question this. Are we over- reaching by involving ourselves in something like this?

SCHOFIELD: I think you`re absolutely right. You know, you think about fraternities, the hazing they have to go through. It`s kind of like a secret society. Only somebody that`s been in the mix knows what really goes on in there. So, I do think us trying to dissect it or justify it or judge them for what`s going on --

ODOULOWU: So I need to be a drug addict to know drugs are bad? I need to be a heroine junkie to know not to use heroin?

PINSKY: No, that`s right. Listen. People get it, but people have used those kinds of logic.

But let me bring in Ricky Williams.

Ricky, are you there?


PINSKY: Yes, thanks for joining us again today.

Of course, Ricky Williams, everyone knows him. He`s a former Dolphin. He`s -- you were defending last week what went on in the locker room which gotten into this again.

My question was --

WILLIAMS: Actually I was clarifying. I was clarifying, not defending.

PINSKY: OK. So we`ve gotten into this question here. Are we -- the media or anybody, legal system -- are people overreaching by involving themselves in this? Or is it something really not so good going on there?

WILLIAMS: I definitely think people are overreaching. You know, I just saw Richie`s interview for the first time a couple minutes ago. After watching it, yes, people are -- it`s even more clearly obvious to me that people are overreaching.

PINSKY: So, Segun, make your point to Ricky.

ODOULOWU: OK. Well, my point is this -- wrong is wrong anywhere. Because certain rules are maybe fudged in an NFL locker room, when they do spill over, we deal with the spillover. If all of this had stayed contained in the locker room, I agree with you, Ricky, a locker room is very different than outside of an NFL locker room. But it has spilled over, causing a football player to leave his team. So, let us allow for the fact --

PINSKY: It was not your point, though. Your point was it was wrong to use that language and should be wrong everywhere. How do you respond to that?

WILLIAMS: Well, you know, for me the idea that what`s wrong is wrong, that`s his opinion, but what`s wrong to you and what`s wrong to me are not the same thing.

PINSKY: That`s what I want you to help us understand. Why is it not -- help us understand this. Is it just a Stockholm syndrome? That everybody is in the locker room?

ODOULOWU: How about this, Dr. Drew? If someone called you that outside the locker room, would your reaction be the same? If it`s different, then the word is wrong.

PINSKY: Go ahead, Ricky, please?

WILLIAMS: It would. It would be exactly the same. I`m not saying that, you know -- I`m saying that because it`s been called to me outside the locker room. My reaction was the same.

My outward reaction wasn`t the same, but it would have been received by them in the -- see, to me, to me, what`s being missed in all of this is I think Richie`s interview and what NFL players have in the locker room is a gift to the rest of the world if they`re willing to receive it. But the only thing people are willing to receive from football players in a locker room is violence and brutality.

To see how vulnerable Richie could be? He didn`t defend himself for one second he didn`t himself. And what he showed what it`s like, is we are brothers, for the most part we do have each other`s back. When I heard Richie, he was genuinely concerned about Jonathan.

And he is -- Richie is the one at home on suspension and being splattered all across the media. Still from there, he`s concerned about his friend?

PINSKY: What`s going on with his friend? Why is he friend not stepping up and defending him? Jonathan?

WILLIAMS: Why is Jonathan not saying anything, is that what you`re saying?


WILLIAMS: Because Jonathan`s not saying anything.

PINSKY: No, Richie is defending his friend, but his friend is remaining silent.

BERRY: Doesn`t anybody think that`s suspicious?

HUTT: Excuse me, I think he`s supposed to make a statement this week, back to your expectations.

PINSKY: OK. All right. Good.

Ricky, finish up, and then we`ve got to go. Please?

WILLIAMS: OK. I`m just saying, if you look who convoluted the who situation is, and I`m one person that can speak about it. I`ve been in a similar situation. You get so convoluted, the truth is so far buried, and no one even wants to know the truth.

PINSKY: Well, we do.

WILLIAMS: No -- you guys do, but most people want to just know that their assumption of what happened is true and correct. No one really wants to know what went on.

PINSKY: Yes, you know, I kind of thing -- oh, boy, I have such mentioned feelings --

ODOULOWU: When we heard from Jonathan Martin, maybe we`ll get a better idea.

PINSKY: Maybe, Ricky, back me up on this, I think free speech is under assault in a lot of areas, and there`s questionable speech that people might be offended by, but if you want to do it in your own locker room, should we just let it be. Is that what you`re saying?

WILLIAMS: I`m saying it should be allowed everywhere.

PINSKY: It should be allowed everywhere.


PINSKY: Yes, go ahead, Mark.

EIGLARSH: It depends on the relationship between the two people. It`s not necessarily the words used. We have all texted or e-mail things that objectively look bad, but the other person, the one receives it and sending it, both have loved for each other, it`s OK.

PINSKY: Listen, I understand what`s going on with my friend Jimmy Kimmel, he was going he`s apologizing, but that`s enough. We have to crush people that we should be educating perhaps or changing everywhere --

WILLIAMS: I don`t even think it`s educating. I think it`s applauding, lauding. I think, insulting. I think it`s all of those things.

I mean, if you look historically, the things that people said that -- I mean, people say something that`s not normally said, it gives everyone an opportunity to have these kinds of conversation. I think that`s what`s missing in all of this.

ODOULOWU: With all due respect, I`m not applauding Incognito`s mea culpa.

PINSKY: But listen, I`m applauding Ricky`s position on this, which is he`s right. That`s where free speech should be allowed to take hold, which is we talk about these things, that they bother us.

Thank you, Ricky. Thank you panel.

Behavior bureau is going to take this up in a minute.

And, later, we`ve got Miley Cyrus at it again. First, we`re going to do the Richie Incognito story. But I`ll tell you about why she is not Amanda Bynes, not Britney Spears. She`s something different. I`ll tell you my thoughts after this.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My only question to you is the use of the "N" word. Is that commonplace? Is that offensive to you?

PINSKY: Ricky.

WILLIAMS: First of all, it`s not offensive to me. If you went in any locker room, any locker room in the NFL, you would hear it at least 50 times a day.


PINSKY: Welcome back.

My co-host is Jenny Hutt.

That was sort of surprising, wasn`t it?

HUTT: Well, it is surprising, but, look, based on the last block and going to behavior, let me say something. Dr. Drew, which is I think behind closed doors people often say things that were then heard outside closed doors would, it be curious. Between a husband and a wife --

PINSKY: Curious, Jenny, that`s a nice way of saying that.

HUTT: Listen, my husband can say things to me, Dr. Drew, at certain moments in time that nobody else can say frankly, and it`s OK when he does, because it`s consensual.

PINSKY: I think you`ve thrown the gauntlet down to get me to say something. I`m not sure what.

HUTT: I`m not saying anything. I`m saying time and place.

PINSKY: Richie Incognito says he is not a racist, despite leaving racial slurs and threats on his teammate`s voice mail.

So, let`s bring in the behavior bureau.

Jennifer Keitt, radio host and life coach; Judy Ho, clinical psychologist, Kinsey Schofield; and new to the bureau, my beau, comedian Loni Love.

Loni, welcome to the show.


PINSKY: We`re calling this the behavior beau-ru for you.

Now, listen, who shall I start with? Who wants to comment? Did you hear what Ricky was saying? It got a little confusing for me.

Jennifer, do you have anything to say about this?

JENNIFER KEITT, LIFE COACH: I do. I do believe we`re overstepping our bounds here, Dr. Drew. As much as I hate to admit it, Thanksgiving is coming up, I`m going to be with family, and my family uses the N-word, news flash. It is something that has become a part of our common vernacular. Is it right? Absolutely not.

But it has so infiltrated itself into our society, and it is used as a commonalty. It`s used to discuss things. It`s used to endear, unfortunately. And so because it is so commonplace, it`s used over and over and over again. We`re going to see more and more cases like this.

And I believe we`re completely overstepping our bounds. That`s the NFL culture. I`m sorry. It stinks, but it is what it is.

PINSKY: Judy, I wonder -- though I understand what Jennifer is saying, but I`m wondering if there`s sort of almost Stockholm syndrome that goes on inside these locker rooms. You start to adopt things as normative, perhaps they shouldn`t be, because they`re in this intense environment where they`re all sort of accepting the same point of view.

JUDY HO, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Absolutely. They`re really just going with the flow. I think I hear a couple people saying it and they`re perceived as leaders of the team or they`ve been there longer than some other younger individuals, they think this is the way we behave, so everybody gets on board.

Everybody does it. Like you say, it`s the Stockholm syndrome. Everybody just kind of does the same thing. And it`s like they don`t have minds of their own anymore and they just think it`s OK.

PINSKY: Loni beau, straighten this out for me. Come on.

LONI LOVE, COMEDIAN: You know what happened?


LOVE: Jonathan Martin got his feelings hurt. He was trying to get along with the group and something happened and it went too far. So now, until we heard from him, we don`t know what was said or done that went too far.

To the sisters` thing about N-word usage, I agree with you. We should use it -- we do use it among each other. But see, this is what happens when you`re letting the rappers and everybody use it, and then --

HUTT: Exactly.

LOVE: And then we try to say we`re going to take the power out of the N-word by using it. No, you`re not because when Incognito was saying it, now your feelings are hurt. People just need to stop saying it.


PINSKY: Kinsey, go ahead.

SCHOFIELD: I`m a 28-year-old from Dallas, Texas. I would die before I used that word. I think that it -- that word is used to hurt someone. I shiver when I heard that word. Just hearing Incognito said it really haunted me.

PINSKY: How about the fact that Ricky Williams said you would hear it 50 times walking through a locker room. That to me was like surprising.

HUTT: I can`t believe you`re surprised by that, Dr. Drew.


HUTT: I`m really not surprised that that`s in a football locker room at the NFL. I`m just not surprised. I think like Loni said, like Jennifer said, it`s part of the culture. It doesn`t make it right. I certainly would never use that word, but that goes on in the locker room.


PINSKY: What`s that Loni? Say that again.

LOVE: You better not, Jenny, or I`m not going to be your friend anymore.

HUTT: Loni, I would never. It`s disgusting.


HO: Why is it OK for certain cultures?

PINSKY: That`s what I`m confused by. Jennifer, what`s that?

KEITT: It goes to certain motivations. I think the question was raised last time why can Paula Deen saying it, but Incognito, that whole difference in terms of the motivating factor. That`s what I`m -- it`s hard to kind of determine, but they shared over 1,000 text messages together. You cannot -- I don`t text my hundred 1,000 times, are you kidding me? I`ve been married 27 years, I don`t have a thousand.

HO: Jenny does.

KEITT: What`s the motivation?

LOVE: The motivation was something happened, and he -- instead of him going to him and settling it, he tries to go a different way. That`s why I can`t wait to hear what he has to say.

SCHOFIELD: Loni Love, he put his tampon in. That`s what he did.

LOVE: He what?

SCHOFIELD: He put his tampon in.


HUTT: But no, she`s right.

PINSKY: She`s right?

HUTT: No, not about the tampon in. In a way, I think what Loni is saying, correct me if I`m wrong, Loni, is that he could have gone about like confronting his friend and dealing with the one on one.


PINSKY: We need more info.

HUTT: And he went elsewhere.

PINSKY: I wonder why he`s not stepping up and help his friend. If Ricky Williams is that impressed by Richie Incognito`s behavior here, why isn`t the friend stepping up and saying, yes, we just went too far.

OK. Listen, thank you, panel.

Next up, Miley Cyrus making headlines again. Is she headed for trouble? I`ll tell you what I think.

And later, the crack mayor`s brother says he doesn`t need treatment. He needs vacation and a diet. Yes, that will take care of it.

Back after this.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Toking replaced twerking last night at MTV`s European Music Awards in Amsterdam.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Miley Cyrus lit up what looked like a joint.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We should note marijuana is not illegal in the Netherlands.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But MTV decided to pull the joint scene out of the rebroadcast in the United States.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pot? Marijuana? That`s not being edgy. Middle- aged people are doing it for God` sake.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When I read it this morning, it was like oh no, Miley.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Should MTV have censored her? Do you agree with what they did?

UNIDENTIIFED FEMALE: I spent two weeks bashing her. It just made her turn up a notch.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Silver dress, little people, twerking and a joint. Whatever.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host Jenny Hutt, and our behavior bureau, Jennifer Keitt, Judy Ho, Kinsey Schofield, and Loni Love.

Miley Cyrus, again, this time, at MTV`s Europe Music Awards. She started off, yes, sort of tame for her, singing with a little person. Take a look at this.





PINSKY: Yes, there she`s doing her thing. So, we come to expect this of her, but then something else happened at the end of Miley`s acceptance speech after winning best video for "Wrecking Ball."

This is what I think got people all worked up. Take a look.


CYRUS: Terry Richardson for putting this together. You know, I couldn`t fit this award in my bag, but I did find this. So, thank you guys very much.


PINSKY: OK, Loni, straighten me out again.

LOVE: Well, if she keeps acting this way I`m going to change her name from Miley Cyrus to Mercedes Cyrus.


LOVE: You know, we get it, Miley. You don`t want to be known as a Hannah Montana character. And she`s doing the best thing.

But she needs to look up the names of Gwen Stefani, Adele and Pink. These are women that are talented, and they became famous because of their talent, not by doing these antics. It really is sending a bad message to the young women. I`m really worried about her.

I think, Dr. Drew, you`re going to have to talk to her in a couple years.

PINSKY: If I talk to her, though, I would just be -- no, no, I would not be talking to her as a physician, though.

Judy, you`re clinician in the panel with me. Back me up on this. I`m going to show you -- do we have the timeline there from Miley -- that`s probably the next block. I may have to move this all up.

But the fact is what she`s been doing is the same as long as she`s been around. She really has done the same stuff. She first gets engaged to a guy. That was back in 2012.

Then, November 2012, she gets photographed with a bong, and we hear she`s smoking salvia. Then, in August 2013, VMA performance with Robin Thicke and the foam finger, everyone gets all excited about that. And then she breaks off her engagement with her friend.

And last night smokes a joint at the European Music Awards. It`s all the same thing. It`s all screwball -- young adult, late adolescent behavior. Judy, back me up. This is not clinically relevant, not diagnosable behavior. It`s not Britney Spears who is progressing in a bipolar disorder. It`s not Amanda who is going deep into a psychotic illness. That`s completely different.

HO: Dr. Drew, with all due respect, I`m not going to back you up here. You know, I adore you and I respect --

PINSKY: Please argue with me. It`s all good. Go. Let`s hear your point of view.

HO: Listen, no, no, no. You know, she`s another child star that is imploding in front of our eyes. You know, we see this with all these child stars. You know, they really have a hard time, because they`re trying to re-claim their childhood, which they never had, because they had tons of responsibility when they were 11 years old like Miley.

And now, she`s really pushing those boundaries, and now, she`s an adult and she has all these yes people around her saying yes to everything she wants. And guess what, eventually, she`s going to become Michael Jackson, the ultimate quintessential child star who had a tragic fate, because everybody just says yes to whatever he asks for.

PINSKY: I get you that the saying yes is not good for her, but I don`t see a diagnosable condition. Kensy, you`re closest to her age. What do you see?

SCHOFIELD: Well, first of all, can I thank the vets? Happy Vets Day. Because if it weren`t for them, Miley Cyrus would not be able to be the twerk tyrant that she is.


SCHOFIELD: Second of all, I mean, I think that people that are my age group, which again is 28, we look at her and we think you`re trying too hard. But unfortunately, she has got so many young little girls that are obsessed with her and are wondering what molly is, and she really is still influencing that younger demo that think that everything she does is great and that`s what really frustrates me, because those are my cousins, and I`m like, oh my gosh, is there anybody else? What happened to Mandy Moore?

HO: I think it goes beyond that.

PINSKY: Hold on. Hold your thoughts. I just see Loni going uh-huh, that`s what I`m talking about. Right, Loni?



LOVE: I totally agree.

PINSKY: Hold on a second. We`ve got have more with the "Behavior Bureau" on Miley. And coming up, the crack mayor is thinking about rehab and treatment. We`ll hear what he has to say. And again, more Miley after this.

VINNIE POLITAN, HLN ANCHOR: Coming up at the top of the hour on "HLN After Dark," our in-studio is here. Have you guys heard about Richie Incognito, the offensive lineman from the Dolphins, involving a little brou-ha-ha. Well, he gave an interview. We`re going to show it to you, then ask you our first bold question, do you believe Incognito?

Then, I don`t know what you were doing around three o`clock in the morning Saturday, but there`s a big verdict out in Utah on the Dr. MacNeill case now a convicted murderer. Our second bold question for you, is the MacNeill guilty verdict justice for Michele? Top of the hour.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I spent two weeks bashing Miley Cyrus. And what did it do? It just matter her turn it up a notch.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She wants us to talk about her. That`s why she does it --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Miley Cyrus knows what gets attention.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Miley Cyrus is playing us.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Miley, Miley, Miley, you cannot fire your fans. My daughters were fans of you for a long time. And now, I have a 10-year- old watching you twerk and swing around naked on a wrecking ball. I don`t appreciate that.

I don`t want to say everybody has to be a role model, but she`s very impressionable to a lot of young girls. I just wish she would just think about that for 2.6 seconds before she does the next thing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Guess what, guys. It`s working for her. She continues to win awards. She continues to sell albums. Go Miley.


PINSKY: A.J. is right. I`m back with my co-host, jenny Hutt, and the "Behavior Bureau," Jennifer Keith, Judy Ho, Kinsey Schofield, and Loni Love. Jennifer, are you trying to say something?

JENNIFER KEITT, JENNIFERKEITT.COM: Absolutely. She is playing us like a fiddle. I`m sorry.

PINSKY: Well, AJ has the point there, Jenny, don`t you think?

HUTT: Well, listen, I think AJ`s right. She`s doing everything that she needs to do to keep us talking, but I also think that you guys are off the mark with saying that she needs to be your daughter`s role models. Frankly, my 13-year-old daughter introduced me to one of the songs on Miley`s album called "Get It Right." It`s a great song. I`m sure you`ve heard it.

And my daughter also knows I don`t want her smoking pot. Not everything that Miley does is for my daughter to do, but as a performer, she`s entertaining and that`s what has to end. It`s our job to teach our children.

PINSKY: Let me pay you a tweet that follows up on what you`re saying here. It`s from @AmericanNurse. "All my kids are in their 20s, grew up watching Hannah, think Miley is just a joke now. Kinsey, I think you were telling me that back in the green room, were you not?

SCHOFIELD: Yes. We don`t want to be like her. I mean, if I`m going to hang out with somebody that smokes a J, it`s going to be my grandmother because she has arthritis. Like smoking pot is not the cruelest thing ever anymore.


SCHOFIELD: And I do think she`s manipulating the media, but I think there`s a way to manipulate the media in a classy, intelligent way. You look at Scooter Braun, who, you know, Justin Bieber`s got his own thing going. But for a very long time, Scooter Braun manipulated the media effortlessly with Justin`s career up until Justin start started making some of his own decisions.

PINSKY: Loni, I don`t (ph) say --

HUTT: But Scooter is Miley`s -- oh, Scooter is Justin`s manager and Scooter is also the manager to many other pop stars who, sometimes, have sort of off moments. So, he doesn`t control everything, but you`re right, he can manipulate.

LOVE: Well, I mean, to answer you, Jenny, is that, yes, it`s right. You should control what your kids do, but, let`s be honest. Kids are heavily influenced by what they see on television. And that`s what the concern -- everybody is not a great mom like you, Jenny. Some people, you know -- I was raised by the television.

And if I see -- you know, I was like a very young girl and I was very impressionable, it might affect me. And so, that`s why I`m saying she just needs to kind of chill out a little bit with it. And you`re right. The older people, we get it. It`s those 10-year-olds that I`m more concerned about.

PINSKY: I don`t know, Loni. You seemed to be twerking the other day in the makeup booth.


PINSKY: I think you`ve been influenced by Miley. I think that`s what happened here.

HUTT: Hold on. I`m not saying, Dr. Drew -- I just want to clarify and to Loni -- look, I`m just a mom who -- I love my kids and I try my best. Am I a great mom? No. I think every mother has faults. I have way many -- forget it, but, I try my best and I think that`s all that I`m asking other mothers do. Just do your best with your kids who`s watching Miley or anything that --

PINSKY: Judy, you feel she`s sick. I`m going to give you the last word.

HO: OK. Well, you know what, I think it goes beyond the call for attention, which I see as well. But all of us are talking about are no one is doing anything. There`s a huge diffusion of responsibility here. And, I think all the problems started when her parents started going back and forth to their divorce and then calling it off. I mean, I think there was a trigger here for her problems. And so, I guess, we`ll just have to see, but that`s my opinion.

PINSKY: But you sort of agree with me, it could just be acting out behavior. It doesn`t have to be a diagnosable psychiatric condition. Give me that one.

HO: Well, I think it`s acting out plus a diagnosable mental health disorder.

PINSKY: All right. Fair enough.

LOVE: Well, I just want to say, I don`t need weed, I need wings. I don`t --


PINSKY: Loni, no more weed?

LOVE: I don`t do that.


Next is the crack mayor. Speaking of -- switch over to -- let`s go to crack now. Is he ready for treatment? Answers after the break.


PINSKY: And I`m back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt, also, Jennifer Keitt, Loni Love, Lynn Berry, and Segun Oduolowu.

The mayor of Toronto admits to smoking crack during one of his drunken stupors. How can you blame me I was stupor-ous, but is he willing to admit himself into treatment? People close to him say he might. Take a look at this.


PINSKY: The Toronto mayor who admitted he smoked crack but not stepping down --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mayor, your brother`s been encouraging you to take a leave. While this is coming from your brother now, what do you have to say?

ROB FORD, TORONTO MAYOR: I love my brother dearly.

You think so, brother? But when he`s down, I`ll rip his (EXPLETIVE DELETED) throat out. I`ll poke his eyes out. I will (EXPLETIVE DELETED) when he`s dead. I`ll make sure that (EXPLETIVE DELETED) dead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The video surfaced as part of raids targeting alleged gun and drug dealers in the community.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People affected by the raids are telling us that they`ve been held to account, now it`s time the mayor is, too.


PINSKY: The mayor has apologized repeatedly for his behavior. We have called him repeatedly as well for a comment, but so far, nothing. Loni, I`ve never heard your thoughts on this guy. What do you think is up with him?

LOVE: Who is still using crack in 2013?


LOVE: Is he putting sugar in the crack? Because he is not losing -- all the crackheads I know, I`m from Detroit. I grew up in the crack area. They were all thin. Dr. Drew, you need to go up to Toronto and help this man personally.

PINSKY: I wish. He does need it, but listen, the massive denial this guy is in, I hope somebody can breakthrough, because his family (INAUDIBLE) -- we actually -- his sister, Kathy, spoke to a reporter from Toronto Take a look at what she said.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Robby is not a drug addict. I know, because I`m a former addict or an addict if you would want to say.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And as an alcoholic, if you want to consider binge drinking once every three months and you get totally plastered, which he just makes him -- full of himself and I`ve even asked him to leave his home one time when I saw him, fine.


PINSKY: Jennifer, I saw you shaking your head.

KEITT: Because you know, Dr. Drew, families have habits, they have behaviors, they have cultures. And this family to me, because they have been so privileged, they have always excused themselves from every form of behavior. You see that in the sister. You see that with him.

I don`t know what it`s going to take, but I`m telling you, this family has been steeped in this culture of being able to just walk away from any and everything that they get themselves into. And it`s got to stop. He`s been called out now.

PINSKY: And to Jennifer`s point, Lynn, that sister was sort of kept under wraps for many, many years. All the media people were shocked of seeing her in public.

LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST: Yes. That`s because there are some dark secrets -- this family. She actually has this on again/off again boyfriend that is a convicted drug dealer that for the past three decades has been in and out of the jail and he`s actually accused of shooting her in the face during an altercation.

Those charges, by the way, were later dropped. But the point being is this family has deep, dark secrets and what does mom say when she`s confronted with videos -- belligerent, accusations of this videotape where he`s smoking crack, she says, you know what Robby needs? He really just needs to lose weight.

And if you don`t start -- I mean, Dr. Drew, this is like a classic case of denial. If you don`t have your family that can support you in this recovery process, then I would say it`s pretty hopeless right now.

PINSKY: Segun, your thoughts?

SEGUN ODUOLOWU, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: See, I love -- as much as the (INAUDIBLE) person, but I don`t think there`s anything funny here. Obviously, this family has an ongoing pattern of addiction. His sister admits to being an addict. Dr. Drew, you deal with addicts all the time.

PINSKY: It`s a genetic disorder. So, you`d always follows in family. It may skip generations, but it`s a biological thing. So -- but the fact what shocks me about the sister is she is supposed to be in some sort of recovery and she`s differentiating alcohol as an addiction. They`re the same damn thing.

ODUOLOWU: No. What I`m saying, though, is I don`t find anything funny with, you know, with this situation. I think that, you know, the goal should be to get this man into rehab, not to step down politically, not to -- the first thing should be his health. And I don`t see anybody to care much about his health. Everything is just worried about his office, his family, what`s going on. Get him help first.

LOVE: It is funny, because he`s supposedly a crack addict and he`s fat. That`s what funny about it. That`s what --


ODUOLOWU: You cannot be serious that a drug addict and overweight obesity is funny. Loni, look --


PINSKY: And he`s not a crack addict, too, by the way. He`s a crack user.


ODUOLOWU: Addiction and obesity aren`t funny.

PINSKY: Jenny.

HUTT: Dr. Drew, last week I said this to you, Loni, I`m right there with you. It`s odd that he`s a crack user and he`s so overweight, A. B, no, Segun, of course, it`s not funny the reality of the circumstances, but if we don`t have a little bit of levity some of the time when the guy is walking into a camera --


ODUOLOWU: If you look like a junkie, would we find it tolerable?

PINSKY: Hold that thought. Hold it. Be right back.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. And Jenny, I`m against the clock a little bit, but I want to share a tweet with you from @Nola555. "Crack is wack. Enough said. We all know Mayor Ford needs rehab or he`s a dead mayor. Good luck, mayor!"

I think that`s right. Unfortunately, that is very true. Do you agree, Jenny?

HUTT: I do. And SMH, so you know, means shaking my head, Dr. Drew.


PINSKY: I didn`t know, but thank you for making me cooler.

HUTT: That`s my job. But, what I was going to say, back to Segun`s point just before that he was saying, if he looked like what we think of, when we think of a junkie, would it still be funny or funny the way it is, funny now? Listen, he doesn`t look exactly down and out the way I envision down and out. Does he look troubled in a meth and like he might die? Yes, Dr. Drew, of course.

PINSKY: They come in all shapes and sizes -- drug addicts.

HUTT: Yes. Yes.s

PINSKY: But here`s -- let`s get the panel in, Jennifer Keitt, Loni Love, Lynn berry, and Segun Oduolowu. Segun, you`re already responding. Go ahead.

ODUOLOWU: Jenny, here`s my quick problem. There`s four ladies on a panel talking about his weight. If it was four men talking about the weight of a woman, you would call us troglodytes and you would say that we are Neanderthals. I don`t think it`s a double standard and I don`t think it`s fair. He has a problem, deal with the problem. Don`t make -- let`s not add -- let`s not make fun of him being overweight.

HUTT: Listen, I`m not making fun of his being overweight. I think being overweight is another symptom and another issue, but I`m going to say Segun that for years and years and years, men have criticized women and our bodies in every age, stage of our lives. And so, if a group of women happens to, in discussing this mayor, who`s troubled clearly, an addict, et cetera, then his weight does come into play, because he looks unhealthy.

PINSKY: Hold on, guys. Lynn, hands up. Go ahead.

BERRY: Segun, I just got to say, every single panel I`ve been on with you, you`ve given us a hard time for bringing levity to the conversation. I mean, if you don`t have a good laugh about certain things like a mayor running into a camera and --

PINSKY: Hang on, Lynn.


ODUOLOWU: Addiction and obesity aren`t funny to me.

PINSKY: Hold on, Lynn. That`s why I brought Loni here to help us --

BERRY: It`s not about obesity. It`s about how he`s behaving. He`s acting like a joke, so we`re making a joke of certain things.

ODUOLOWU: You made fun of his weight.


LOVE: Hey, hey, Segun --


PINSKY: Loni, help me.

LOVE: I`m the fat person on the panel. And I don`t have a problem with fat jokes. I`m going to tell you, a fat crack user is hilarious. And I will stand by that on any stage.

KEITT: And I didn`t make fun of his weight, not once whatsoever. What I am saying is the man needs help. He needs H-E-L-P. And his behavior is stupid.


PINSKY: Hang on a second. I can laugh at Loni`s joke and still by deeply concerned for this man`s safety and well-being.

HUTT: Right.

PINSKY: That`s where people are lost track of things these days. Jokes are meant to be funny to help us talk about things that are really unpleasant and sad. Jennifer, you`re nodding yes?

KEITT: Yes. I agree with you 100 percent, because you know what, in this kind of day and age, how are we going to ever get to the deeper issues? How are we ever going to get to the help that`s needed? This man needs to be helped, H-E-L-P-E-D, but he can`t even see it. We`ve got to talk about it.

PINSKY: Let`s leave it at that. "Last Call" is next. Be right back.


PINSKY: It is time for the "last call." And the "Last Call" goes to this special today, that is today, special to me, because it`s my kids` birthday. I want to wish them a happy birthday.

HUTT: Happy birthday.

PINSKY: And it`s a special day for all of us, because it is Veterans Day. Time to salute the men and women who served our country, not just in military battles, but in all spheres in which our veterans serve.

At this hour, marines are in the typhoon ravaged Philippines. 10,000 people may have been dead, as many as 10 million believed to be affected by the storm, and the people who are serving our country are out there making further sacrifice for us and the people of the world.

A sacrifice that most of us don`t know firsthand, but let`s all hats off, appreciate, and thank you to our veterans, and let`s say thank you, not just today, but every day wherever you see someone serving in the military -- Jenny.

HUTT: Yes, I think --

PINSKY: Go ahead.

HUTT: I think you need to give them a hug, frankly.

PINSKY: Hug will be good. Well, not from me, but from you.

Let me quickly put up a tweet before -- switching gears a little bit here for you, Jenny. This is from Cheryl Briskow (ph) says "Rob Ford," just back to him, "doesn`t need rehab, he needs jail. He grew up spoiled. He thinks the laws don`t apply to him. Read our papers." That`s the Canadian point of view. I`ve got 10 seconds, Jenny. Your thoughts.

HUTT: OK. But they voted for him repeatedly. So, explain that, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: And they don`t have laws that help them get rid of a mayor who`s misbehaving. So get the guy treatment. Let him deal with his medical problems like any other.

Thank you all for watching. Thank you, Jenny. "After Dark" starts right now.