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Rob Ford Answers Tough Questions

Aired November 13, 2013 - 21:00   ET



DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, Toronto`s crack mayor on the defensive as he answers tough questions.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you purchased illegal drugs in the last two years?

MAYOR ROB FORD, TORONTO: I am not an alcoholic, I am not a drug addict.

PINSKY: His brother says don`t worry he`s on a diet.

Plus, the Alec Baldwin trial, he breaks down on the witness stand, she screams "liar".

We`ll hear from his accused stalker in the behavior bureau.

Let`s get started.



PINSKY: Good evening.

My co-host is attorney and Sirius XM Radio host Jenny Hutt.

And coming up, Alec Baldwin in another confrontation, this time with an alleged stalker. We will hear what she is saying.

First up, crack Mayor Rob Ford and his own confrontation. He was confronted, the council wants him out and they had a lot of questions, substance abuse wasn`t the only item on the agenda.

Have a look.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He stood very, very close to me, in a threatening manner. He was ordering me to sit down.

FORD: I did not threaten him in any way, shape or form.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m asking you, Mayor, if you would please apologize.

FORD: There`s nothing to apologize about.


FORD: So, no, I`m not going to apologize. If I did something wrong, I would apologize. I did absolutely nothing wrong. Madam Speaker, I`m sorry.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you, Mayor Ford. Thank you, Mayor Ford.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you purchased illegal drugs in the last two years?

FORD: Yes, I have.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you admitted all of your problems?

FORD: I don`t know. There might be like a coat hanger left in my closet.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Will you get helped?

FORD: I`m not an addict of any sort.

I am not leaving here. I might go to Florida over the Christmas holidays with my family.


PINSKY: All right. Jenny, I`m not an addict of any sort. I -- it`s rare that you immediate an alcoholic addict that doesn`t say that. He`s in no position to diagnose himself.

What do you say?

JENNY HUTT, RADIO HOST: Well, what I say is it`s all very, very compelling TV to watch. Sadly compelling, but compelling nonetheless. He reminds me of Elfie, the character in "Dream Girls", who says "I`m not going". Like he`s not going unless we really show him the door. He`s not going to do it on his own.

PINSKY: You`re right. Then, it sort of becomes political for the reasons we have talked about many times on this show.

Joining us further conversation, Mark Eiglarsh, attorney at Lynn Berry, HLN host; Segun Oduolowu, social commentator; Emily Miller, senior editor of the opinion at "the Washington Times" and author of "Emily Gets Her Gun."

And on the phone, we`re joined by CNN`s Ashleigh Banfield.

Ashleigh, now, my understanding is that you have a dual citizenship, U.S. and Canada. Maybe straddling the border, you can enlighten us and help us understand what`s going on out there.

Is Ashleigh there?

All right. I don`t think anybody`s -- I don`t know if she`s there. I can`t hear her.

So, I`m going to Lynn.

Lynn, you can help me. You`re the reporter on the panel. Go.

LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST: We all couldn`t hear her.

But really what came out today that`s huge is this treasure trove of documents that is giving us inside into just how messed up, if the allegations are true. Let`s point out, these are allegations. He`s not been charged with anything. Nothing has been proved.

But there are allegations that he was drinking and driving. This is from Ford staffers and bar employees that talked to police, and they`ve just released.

We`re learning about, you know, bar alter indications, that there were staffers that smoked marijuana with him, staffers that bought alcohol for him, because, you know, if the mayor would go into a liquor store, it would end up on Twitter. There were allegations he might have been with a woman who might have been an escort.

All of this is being documented that was turned over by police, and it all goes into whether or not this guy is going to eventually realize we know too much now. And that coat hanger he`s talking about in the closet, just how heavy is the coat that`s on that coat hanger? Because the last bombshell here could be what seals the deal and whether or not he gets out of office.

PINSKY: And, Mark, speaking the bombshells, he admits to buying crack in what is sort of almost a public administrative or legislative forum? Is that a problem? How would you have advised him to answer that question?

MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: OK. Well, first of all, I would tell him to keep his big mouth shut, OK? Mama told me when I was look 4 years of age, this old adage, that overweight crack-using politicians who kept their mouth shut never got caught, OK? Or was that about fish? I don`t remember.

My point is that I would make sure, first of all, I`ve got paid up front, because again, I`ve been in the criminal justice arena for about 20 years now, and crack addicts not good with the payments plans.

PINSKY: And with little truth, too, typically.

So, Emily, you made the point over and over again that this is a guy who was politically in trouble, and can`t function politically. So, my question to you is, should he stay or should he go?

EMILY MILLER, THE WASHNGTON TIMES: He`s got no choice. I told you last week, Dr. Drew, he`s got two weeks, this is one week, one more until he`s out.

When politicians don`t want to leave office, there`s two things that get them out. One is the political pressure from anyone, whether it`s the political leaders, their constituents, in this case, it`s the city council that`s voted overwhelmingly, or it`s criminal charges.

And in this case, I think it looks like they`re going to press charges. They`re very easily going to turn these lower-level staffers against him, to testify against him, and all these charges of drugs and prostitutes, and drinking and driving. I mean, it`s just a matter of time, one way or the other, he`s out.

PINSKY: Segun, you have a way of turning our conversations on its head. So, what do you got to say about this?

SEGUN ODUOLOWU, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I`m not typically an anarchist, but this guy spins my bowtie, find him absolutely hilarious and compelling.

He`s an elected official. So the people that put him now don`t like what he represents. He represents them and maybe they don`t like that image. I find it humorous that there`s a law on the books that they can`t get him out of office unless he wants to get out. So, here you have this politician probably guilty of all these horrible things and they can`t get rid of him.

PINSKY: Jenny, go ahead.

BERRY: He hasn`t been charged with anything. He hasn`t been charged with anything. And these are all just allegations.

ODUOLOWU: No, he bought crack illegally. It`s against the law.

PINSKY: He said he bought crack.

Jenny, your point.

ODUOLOWU: That`s against the law.

HUTT: Segun --

MILLER: He said he bought drug in the last two years, so admitted to felony crimes.

ODUOLOWU: To breaking the law.

MILLER: And so, when you said there`s a special thing he can`t leave office. It`s an election and we have politicians who leave after being elected very often, not very often --

ODUOLOWU: But they can`t force him.

MILLER: Often enough in Washington, this happens when they break the law, they start to get charged, they leave office, or another thing they could do, which he could do, is say I have a problem, I`m going to rehab, it`s become political trick at this point.

But they go to rehab, giving it a cooling off period, but the kicker to this guy, to Mayor Ford, is he refuses to admit he has a problem and refuses to stop breaking the law. You can`t just do the political "I`m going to rehab" thing unless you actually go to rehab and stop doing drugs.

PINSKY: Jenny, what`s your point? Jenny?

HUTT: He also said he didn`t have an addiction problem. So he`s not planning to go to rehab.

Segun, to your point that the people trying to get him out of office are the ones who put him in the office, it`s actually the public that voted him into office and now this is the government trying to get him out. So it`s a smaller population of people who are trying to get him out.

ODOULOWU: But, Jenny, they`re still elected officials. They`re still elected officials.

HUTT: Yes.

ODOULOWU: So all around, they are the representatives of the people. And they can`t force him to leave office.

HUTT: Hold on. There is that one law that Dr. Drew and I discussed last week, right, Dr. Drew?


HUTT: Where if they deem there are other reasons why he cannot do his job effectively, he can be removed, after he`s unable to do his job effectively for I think three months.

PINSKY: Where is the great Canadian medical system in all of this? Why aren`t they stepping in and helping this man?

And, Segun, by the way, I`m a little shocked at you tonight. You are saying this guy is hilarious tonight. The other days ago, you`re yelling at us for laughing at him.

ODOULOWU: You guys are missing my point. I`m not laughing at the issues. I`m laughing at the people trying to remove a man from office who`s telling you, I refuse, come and get me. He`s basically saying, come and get me. Come and get him --

MILLER: At one point I was going to agree with Segun and say this is hilarious --

ODOULOWU: Only if you say my name right, can you agree with ime.

PINSKY: Segun.

MILLER: How do you say it right then?

PINSKY: Segun, Segun.

MILLER: Segun, OK.

Then, I will no longer need to agree with you. I was going to, but the point is that it was like a "Saturday Night Live" skit, and that`s why Americans are riveted by this, because it has become such a joke. It is funny, because he`s so overweight, because he`s admitting things that are so extreme.

He`s now accused of drinking and driving. He`s admitting to smoking crack, doing OxyContin, smoking pot with his staff? I mean, it`s so over the top, yes, it is funny. But I think -- we`re not talking about the same thing.

PINSKY: Mark, go ahead. You`re quietly shaking your head. Please?

EIGLARSH: Drew, because I have a different take. There is nothing to me, and this is personal -- nothing funny about this. This is sad. I believe he`s an addict completely in denial which will end up either in death.

Look at his weight. I have extraordinary concerns. If he does have a family and he claims he`s going to come down here to Florida to vacation, I suggest to him, especially if he wants a political future, come down to one of our many rehabs that we have down here.

PINSKY: Yes, great idea.

EIGLARSH: Ready to get help, which it looks like he`s not willing to get help, but at least from a political standpoint, make it look like you`re trying to get help.


PINSKY: Hold it. Hold it. Hold it. Hold it.

We`ll continue the debate after this.

Later, Alec Baldwin gets teary at the trial of a woman accused of stalking him. Why is he crying?

Back after this.



FORD: Happy to take questions. My contribution is $500.

REPORTER: What have you been doing to deal with the problems that you identified last week?

FORD: We`re doing very well. We`re doing very, very well, and things are going great, absolutely fantastic.

REPORTER: What changes are you making?

FORD: Talk is cheap. Action speaks louder than words.

REPORTER: And what are your actions?

FORD: It`s going to take another three or four weeks to order more bobbleheads. The phone has been ringing off the hook.


PINSKY: Bobbleheads are the act.

Back to my co-host Jenny Hutt. Also, Mark Eiglarsh, Lynn Berry, Segun Oduolowu, and Emily Miller.

Will Toronto Mayor Rob Ford be dodging questions about smoking crack forever? How long it`s going to going before it`s resolved in one way or another?

PINSKY: On the phone, I`ve got CNN`s Ashleigh Banfield.

Ashleigh, I want to hear what the headline is and what you`re hearing. By the way, as I said earlier, I believe you have dual citizenship in Canada and the U.S. And I`m wondering if that gives you any special insight?

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR (via telephone): Only that I`m as upset as everyone else is. Canadians are mortified this is getting so much coverage south of the border. It`s not what Canada is known for. Mortified.

But I will tell you this, what`s astounding is that this guy is the chief magistrate of the police of Toronto, and he is refusing to cooperate. He said so in the council meeting today, amid all that talk about drug use and the intransigence about being an addict. Maybe even more critical here is that when they`re all these allegations of breaking the law, the OxyContin use, the driving drunk, the escorts, the driving drunk.

He is refusing to cooperate with police. He says (INAUDIBLE). But again he`s the chief magistrate. He`s refusing to do so.

This may come as complete irony, especially to you, Drew, but the fact is he is so set in saying he`s not an addict, in fact if he were an employee of the city and said he were an addict, his job would be protected --

PINSKY: Right. That`s right.

BANFIELD: -- by Ontario human rights code.

PINSKY: That`s right.

BANFIELD: They couldn`t fire if here an addict.

But you know what? He`s being protected by a lot of other kind of laws, and they`re just asking him to leave despite the fact they voted 37-5 that he should be off council. By the way, his poll numbers are dropping.

PINSKY: But they were up for a while there.

But thanks, Ashleigh for that insight. I appreciate it.

Emily Miller, you have been an adviser to a number of different leaders, like Colin Powell, right?


PINSKY: If you were advising someone who was in this position, what would you tell them to do? Would you tell them to go get treatment, take care of your medical problem or tell them to drop out of sight?

MILLER: Well, you know, it`s difficult in these situations, of course, first, Colin Powell or Condoleezza Rice have not smoked crack. I can assure you that.

PINSKY: Right, you had a much easier job, obviously.

MILLER: Exactly.

PINSKY: But the point is, you`re in that position, should something gone wrong -- let`s say they showed up with a tumor or something and insisted on staying on their job? It`s the same damn thing.

MILLER: Right. Here`s the dynamic that`s interesting in Washington is, as a staffer, as a communications staffer, as a press secretary, you have -- part of you is protecting your boss. When I`m reading these police reports and I see the people trying to stop him from drinking and driving, trying to get it out of office, that is -- I`m not saying covering crimes part of your job, but that does come into play.

However, if I was advising, this mayor asks me how do I stay in office? I would say, go out there and say I`ve made a really big mistake, I`m an alcoholic, I`m a drug addict, I`ve broken the law. If you have to take a plea deal, do that. Go to rehab, disappear for a month and then come back. But the kicker is he has to stop doing the drugs, and the alcohol and threatening to kill people.

PINSKY: Hold on a second. Addict, an alcoholic needs to stop doing drugs to get things squared right.

Mark, what`s up?

MILLER: And threatening to kill people. My point is they have to have remorse, even if it`s fake remorse in a political situation, which it often is. They have to stop doing the illegal acts.

PINSKY: All right.

ODOULOWU": I thought I loved the sound of my own voice. Wow.

EIGLARSH: You asked me to defend him. So, what we would do, the first thing we would do is need to show he`s not an addict. Who better in the field than you, to hire on our team as an expert to show that he`s not an addict. So, I`m putting you on the spot.


EIGLARSH: Make the argument that he`s not.


EIGLARSH: Make the argument that he`s not an addict. He used crack a little bit, right? Go ahead.

PINSKY: I could make an argument that he`s not a drug addict. The problem is -- what I would have to hide from the court is I don`t make a distinction between drug addiction and alcoholism. To be able to say he`s not an alcoholic is -- would be -- I know you guys think, Mark -- it would be a technicality, because I`d say it`s not alcoholic, but in my mind I would say he`s a binge alcoholic, you left that word out.

Is that good for the defense?



The reality is the guy is going to die of his alcoholism. He`s going to die of alcoholism, no doubt about it.


HUTT: Dr. Drew --


BERRY: You talked about addiction --


BERRY: Addiction actually the way you know it`s an addiction is that it affects your life.

PINSKY: You have consequences, absolutely.

BERRY: And there are consequences.

PINSKY: And your family history. Your family history, we know his sister was an addict. That`s it. You need those two things.

And, by the way, the third criteria is denial. You think this guy`s got that criteria?

BERRY: But if you read through the documents, some of the allegations that are made, the way he`s talked to some of the staffers, the sexual references that he`s made to them, that he drank half a 40-ounce bottle of vodka. I mean, this guy is hurting himself by not shutting this down, because this is related to a drug case completely separate from the mayor that`s ongoing.

Guess what happens in cases? More evidence comes out. We`re going to see videotapes. We`re going to hear from more witnesses. If he doesn`t shut this down and shut it down quickly, it`s only going to grow.

PINSKY: Lynn, I`m going to show some more footage of exactly those sorts of pieces of evidence. This is now from one of the members of the city council who confronted him about a violent episode he had. Take a look at this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you ever assaulted any of your staff?

FORD: Assaulted any of my staff? No, I don`t -- assault? No, I don`t -- I`ve been here 13 years, I`ve never assaulted any of my staff.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s a report in the newspaper that on your -- on St. Patrick`s Day, while in this building, you actually shoved one of your own staff to the ground.


PINSKY: Of course, his response was -- you shouldn`t believe everything you read. That`s a reminder none of the allegations against Ford have been proven and there are no active charges against him.

Segun, your thoughts.

ODOULOWU: My question really for the panel and for you, Dr. Drew, do we care about getting him help or do we care more about him stepping down and die? Are we saying that he needs to step down to save his life?

PINSKY: Let me answer that. Well, I think, well, Mark I think would agree with me he needs to step down to save his life. Emily is more concerned with the politics. I think she -- not that Emily is heartless, I just think she has a priority in looking at the political situation. She`s been in those.

I don`t understand, Emily, why politics can`t have honesty. Why can`t -- where did -- when did we decide that politicians have to lie to distort things in order for the public to be able to consume it properly.

MILLER: It`s a very weird career choice, you know? It draws a certain type of people who like to be the center of attention, who`d like to have power and like people around them who say yes. I mean, that`s the type of person that is drawn the politicians generally. I`m not saying all of them, but most of them around here are like that.

So, it`s very hard when they start doing things that are illegal or are harmful to themselves, to stand up and have someone around them that says it`s unacceptable --

PINSKY: I want to show you Ford`s brother who came to his defense this very meeting apparently, and tried to paint the critics as hypocritics themselves.

On the other side of this, Jenny, you react. Go ahead. Let`s watch this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The question is, have you ever smoked marijuana? Have you ever smoked marijuana?

Hold it. Have you ever smoked marijuana? It`s a question. It`s simple. Yes or a no. Have you smoked marijuana?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The answer I guess is yes.


PINSKY: Jenny?

HUTT: Well, does that like not as bad as the crack cocaine? I mean, look, I think the whole thing is a mess, Dr. Drew. I wanted to say his brother did come out and say -- and this is actually for Segun, I`m curious about his response to this.

He brought up his weight, and he said that he`s now exercising every day and he`s dieting. Segun --

PINSKY: Hold on. Do we have that tape? I want to actually play that tape because it was crazy. Do you have that tape?

HUTT: It was crazy.

PINSKY: We`re going to watch that in the next block, OK.

But go ahead, Segun.

ODOULOWU: Well, no, like I said --

HUTT: No, no, wait, wait, my question for Segun, Dr. Drew, respectively, is that do you think it`s OK to talk about his weight now that his family has brought it up and out into the open?

ODOULOWU: I never thought talking about his weight or problems was the central issue. I`ve always said it`s better to get this man help than to rail at him and say you have to step down, you`re an embarrassment, et cetera, et cetera. I`ve always wanted him to get help, but seek help, as Dr. Drew, would tell us, on his own terms. If he chooses not to get help, that`s on him. We can`t for him to.

PINSKY: But then he it becomes a political thing.


ODOULOWU: Then like he`s saying, come and get me if you want to make it political. If you have to save my life, then save my life. But if you`re saying I should step down, and you`re going to through political teams, come and get me, I`m a politician.

PINSKY: Thank you, panel.

Next up, behavior bureau has some advice for the crack mayor.

And later, a policeman that goes overboard after a very challenging chase. There it is. A really heavy video.

And, of course, the Alec Baldwin story -- oh, my goodness -- the Alec Baldwin story and what went on the courtroom today.

Be right back.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Robbie is not a drug addict.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Mayor, you recognized that some of your behavior points to that?

FORD: It depends on how you interpret my behavior. A few isolated incidents?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is not funny, folks.

UNIDENTIIFED FEMALE: If he was really, really in dire straits for, you know, he needed help, I would be the first one. I would put him in my car and I would be taking him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rob does not come into work drunk. He said he`s tried illicit drugs under a drunken stupor, and he`s not doing drugs, and he`s not drinking, so he`s moving in the right direction, in my opinion.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The only person that could admit to having some kind of an addiction problem is the person who has it.

FORD: Absolutely.


PINSKY: Welcome back.

My co-host if Jenny Hutt.

And we are talking about Toronto`s crack-smoking, alcoholic or alcohol binging mayor.

Time to bring in the behavior bureau.

Cheryl Arutt, clinical and forensic psychologist; Samantha Schacher, social commentator and host of Pop Trigger on the Young Turks Network; Danine Manette, criminal investigator, author of "Ultimate Betrayal"; and new to behavior bureau, Erica America, she`s a radio host in Z 100 in New York.

Now, it seems like co-workers and strangers, and that gentleman there seemed to understand addiction very well, was confronting him in a very appropriate manner, but people other than his family are concerned.

Sam, you`re troubled by that. Go ahead.

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, POP TRIGGER: Yes, Dr. Drew, I can tell you exactly why Mayor Ford is refusing to resign.

PINSKY: Please, please tell us.

SCHACHER: And acting like a spoiled brat, because he grew up as a spoiled brat. He comes from a very wealthy family. If you look at his history and his incident reports, they have always defended his bad behaviors, and hence groomed him to be this narcissistic entitled individual. I think he not only needs to seek treatment for his addiction, but also, he needs to do some self-reflection, and all of them need therapy.

PINSKY: Danine?

DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: He`s not going to seek any treatment or help, because once he -- if he steps down, what is he going to do? He`s a politician, it`s not like he can work a real job, they don`t know how to do that.

I think that the reason that he is staying where he is, is because he needs everybody from the outside to be watching him to help him stay on the straight and narrow. I think if he left the public eye, he would go off somewhere and he would probably die of drug abuse or alcoholism or something else.

PINSKY: Interesting theory, Danine, once again.

So, you`re saying he needs to be --

MANETTE: So we can help him.

PINSKY: Staying in this job is going to save his life? Interesting theory.

Erica, what do you say?

MANETTE: Yes, I believe that.

ERICA AMERICA, Z100: You know, if he actually admitted he was an addict, I would be more empathic, but in this case, his explanations, combined with his level of remorse, actually makes me feel that this guy has got a constellation of behavior that is very high risk. I mean, we`re not talking about an affair or even marijuana, which is also illegal. But we`re talking about crack cocaine. We`re talking about him being on video, threatening someone`s life.

There`s an implicit code of ethics as a public officer or as a mayor. And how is he supposed to leave drug enforcement when he`s done the exact thing he`s going to be trying to stop?


AMERICA: I mean, it`s kind of like an "SNL" skit at this point.

PINSKY: Right.

And, Jenny, he`s the chief officer in the law enforcement agency, yet not cooperating with said law enforcement agency.

AMERICA: It`s ridiculous.

HUTT: Right. And, Dr. Drew, look, it shouldn`t be this way, but unfortunately often it is this way in the politics, that the very people who are always supposed to do the right thing often do the wrong thing.

PINSKY: Wait a minute, Jenny, you`re shattering my image of politicians.

HUTT: I know. Going back to his family, and going to what Samantha said, look, I don`t think it`s just because he grew up with a family who had privilege. I don`t think that everybody who grows up with a little money turns into a giant jerk.

SCHACHER: I didn`t say just that. It`s the fact that they continually defended his behavior, coupled with the wealth.


HUTT: You`re right. This family is enabling him, that to me, Dr. Drew, correct me if I`m wrong, is not OK.

PINSKY: Not OK and not uncommon. But Cheryl, hold that thought. I want to show you some footage of Rob Ford`s brother and then we`ll get your reaction on the other side. He says the mayor is moving forward, but it`s not clear whether he`s seeking professional help, or perhaps a personal trainer. Listen to what Doug Ford told CNN.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think my brother is taking the right steps, moving forward. He`s on a proper diet plan. He`s getting some -- if you want to call it counseling, you can say that. But that is a person --


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s working out every day. He just actually went downstairs on his break. So, Rob is taking the right steps to move forward in his life.


PINSKY: Cheryl, have at it.

CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., CLINICAL & FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: OK. We know that denial and enabling is part and parcel of addiction, but here`s the thing that is so interesting about the stigma and the thing that makes me so sad in terms of mental illness and addiction treatment. This family is much more OK acknowledging that he has a weight issue, and maybe he needs a personal trainer or a diet than they are about the life-threatening addiction issues.

If he had cancer, for example, and a weight problem, we would be stunned if the family said, oh, but it`s OK because he`s working out every day and he`s losing a few pounds but ignoring the cancer.

PINSKY: Yes, yes.

ARUTT: But this is just as life-threatening. And meanwhile, while the family is in denial and colluding, urban dictionary has added a new word of the day.

PINSKY: Oh, really?

ARUTT: Crack-stituents.

PINSKY: Crack-stituents.

ARUTT: Crack-stituents are people who like to smoke crack with their favorite mayor.

PINSKY: Erica, maybe you can use that on your radio show tomorrow. Yes?

ERICA AMERICA, @ERICAAMERICAONZ: I just think what`s funny is that food addiction is -- and I`m sure you know this, Dr. Drew, is an addiction in itself. There`s groups for this and all sorts of things, but they`re not even addressing the right aspect of it, which is the bottom line, what`s feeding the addiction. It`s just, oh, he`s going -- he`s on a diet or he`s on this. It just seems ridiculous.


PINSKY: Let`s just start with first principles, which is I can`t control this. It`s out of control. It`s bigger than me. It`s a part of my brain that I don`t have control over.

AMERICA: Step one.

PINSKY: -- control, then, only then can this man begin to deal with this problem that is spiraling out of control. It still makes me sad, but I understand why people are watching, because it is so frustrating to see somebody holding the reins of power as sick as he seems to be. We would be deeply empathic if he would let go and say, I need help. I`m sick, I`m not well. I`ll be back in a month. Hopefully, we`ll see how it goes.

All right. Now, thank you, panel. Next up, there`s a woman on trial for allegedly stalking Alec Baldwin. She says they had a relationship. They had sex. He said that did not happen. Somebody is lying here. We`re going to get to the bottom of this, so stay with us.


PINSKY: Welcome back. I`m here with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. And Jenny, I`m interested in getting my teeth into this story. Alec Baldwin, are you ready for this one?

HUTT: Oh, I had -- oh, I`m ready and I`ve read up on it. It`s delicious, yummy.

PINSKY: Excellent. Excellent. Well, he, of course, back in the news, and this time, the victim of an alleged stalker. The stalker is an aspiring actress -- Jenny, you pronounced her name as Genevieve Sabourin. She`s French-Canadian, I believe. Gevieve Sabourin.

HUTT: Sabourin.

PINSKY: Sabourin. Fantastic. She claims she had an affair, physical, sexual affair with the "30 Rock" star. Baldwin denies there was any real relationship. He says she terrorized him for the last two years and we`ll show you some of the evidence. Pretty interesting. Take a look at this.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I`m not a stalker.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Baldwin says Sabourin was an acquaintance who imagined the romance.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At one point, he choked back tears on the witness stand, describing how she`s harassed him and his wife, Hilaria, for the past two years.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She merely sought closure for a crumbling romantic relationship.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m in jail since the beginning of this process, which is nearly two years.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I perceived at this point that she was fully delusional.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re lying, she yelled at one point.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s been given a 30-day sentence because she couldn`t keep her mouth shut in court.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His wife, Hilaria Baldwin, also testified saying she was terrified at Sabourin`s obsessive behavior. A deranged stalker who sent dozens of threatening voicemails and e-mails a day.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One e-mail read, "I want to be your wife now, say yes."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She called 911 on me, because probably she knew I was Alec Baldwin`s ex-romance.


PINSKY: Back with us, Mark Eiglarsh, Lynn Berry, Segun __, and Emily Miller. Lynn, we saw you there in that piece covering the story. Can you tell us what happened in court today?

LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST: Yes. It really -- it was almost like one of his movies. It was completely bizarre. Any time you`ve been in the courtroom, it is so strict. You cannot have any outbursts. And there was a witness on the stand. And in Ohio where I`m from, we call her Genevieve Sabourin. Genevieve Sabourin, she gets up there and she`s like I want to testify, I want to testify.

You can`t do that. She got 30 days in jail because of these outbursts. And here`s why that`s really going to hurt her. All of this comes down to her credibility. Whether or not they went on a date, whether or not they had sex, that`s not at question here. There`s nothing illegal about having a one-nightstand with someone and never calling them again.

There`s nothing illegal with dating someone for a couple of months and never calling them again. She sent these e-mails and she sounds crazy. Can I just read you a couple others?

PINSKY: Please, go right ahead.

BERRY: "I`m less than ten minutes away from you tonight. Say I do to me. I need to start my new life with my new name in my new country with my new husband." I mean, come on.

PINSKY: The favorite one, maybe my producer can put it up here, the one about the ovulation? Is that the one here? OK. Here it is, ""I want to be naked in your bed and make love with you all night and every morning. I`ll be in the prime of my ovulation on the St. Patrick`s Day. The best gift from you above all will be to conceive a mini Baldwin on this --


BERRY: She`s a crazy. She`s just a crazy girl.

PINSKY: And she`s having outburst in court. Emily, you want to say something.


EMILY MILLER, SR. EDITOR OPINION, WASHINGTON TIMES: OK. OK. Totally she`s a whack job and that is totally gross, but this is Alec Baldwin. He has this long history, we`ve all seen, of crazy outbursts, punching photographers, calling his daughter a filthy pig. I mean, he -- he`s not an innocent little person. So, I mean, obviously, something happened between these two.


PINSKY: Mark, so what if something happened between them? So what?

HUTT: Yes.

MILLER: Right.


MILLER: Well, I`m just saying, who knows? It`s his word against her word.

EIGLARSH: -- throughout the United States, I`ve defended these cases, I`ve helped the victims as well. There`s nothing in any statute that says if somehow you have sex, and even if he lies about it, that somehow you have the legal right to make his life a living hell. And by the way, I would convict her alone on using the term "ovulation" in a love letter. That alone.


PINSKY: I think she called it ovulation prime. There must be something lost in translation. Segun, take me home with this.

ODUOLOWU: OK. So, for me, I think we`re all missing the point like she can be crazy as she wants to be, but he got on stand and said he never slept with her. If she slept with him, just give us the details. Real simple. You said you slept with him. Describe his naked body. If she describes it accurately, he lied on the stand. I`m not a lawyer, but I thought that was perjury. She can be crazy. He could have slept with her. I think she probably is crazy.


MILLER: Remember, Alec Baldwin just started a brand-new TV show on MSNBC, and the ratings are terrible, because he thinks, you know, he`s just so far left wing, so out there. So, you know, who knows how much of this is his own publicity --


PINSKY: Apparently, she was confronted about scars and marks and things on the stand. She couldn`t come up with it, Segun.

Next up, "Behavior Bureau" wants to know could -- what`s that? Oh, she did know one.


PINSKY: She did know one.

ODUOLOWU: Thank you.

PINSKY: Well, that`s interesting.

ODUOLOWU: -- the truth.

PINSKY: All right. Well, here`s what I want to do. I`m going to bring in the "Behavior Bureau" and talk about what this woman is likely to be. In other words, what is woman that does this and says this and has these outbursts? What`s going on with her? And does it matter that they slept together or not?

And later, an unexpected and frightening police chase ends in a way that`s rather shocking. We`ll get into that. Be right back.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A ton of drama coming out of a courtroom involving Alec Baldwin. Again, he has an alleged stalker.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And she believes in her mind that this was not a one-night stand, that they had developed a friendship and led into relationship with him. She says he took her on a romantic date. They went to a play that starred Alicia Silverstone. They went to dinner. He drove her through Central Park, because that`s where she told she`d love the most, and then he put her in a fancy hotel, and brought her to New York. So, she really has in her head that they were starting a relationship.


PINSKY: In her head, I think, is the important note there. Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt, and the "Behavior Bureau," Cheryl Arutt, Samantha Schacher, Danine Manette, and Eric America.

Alec Baldwin`s alleged stalker was arrested outside his home in 2012. She is now on trial for 23 counts of harassment, one count of stalking. She insists, as you heard, that she slept with the guy. And he says no, that they -- She says she`s looking for closure. I want to get to the panel.

Danine, what do you think? Someone just seeking closure for a relationship. Didn`t work out the way she wanted it to or is this a resentful stalker as I think it is?

DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: OK, here we are. Yes. She`s off her rocker, but this is something that I affectionately term the X- factor, which is the uncalculated risk people take when they play with other people`s emotions. You have no idea how an injured person is going to react when you hurt or when they dealt with lover (ph).

Now, he knew he had no desire to be with her, but he played with her and he strung her along, and now, this is a situation that he`s in.


MANETTE: People don`t hire hookers to come over, they hire them to leave.


PINSKY: Wow! That`s interesting. I hope everyone (INAUDIBLE). But Cheryl, she says something very important there. She says if you play with injured people. I think that is the right point.

ARUTT: OK, look, he did not owe her a relationship by any means. When we play with injured people or when we exploit vulnerable people, we do run a risk that somebody is going to kind of go over the line and off the rails like this.


PINSKY: -- be careful --


PINSKY: If you`re going to defend her behavior, you`ve got to defend Jodi Arias` behavior.

HUTT: Yes, exactly.

PINSKY: Because that`s the same damn thing. Erica, what do you say?

AMERICA: Well, I think there`s guilt in both parties, OK? I think that he pulled the "Sex and the City" the wee (ph) guy. We`re going to do this. We`re going to do that. That`s what he did with her. And yes, you know, if that`s what happened, it was really sad, but at the same point, you don`t owe someone a relationship, someone said that earlier because of that.

We have the ability to change our mind and make a decision and what happened was this is someone who`s mentally unstable. If you look at her courtroom behavior, you can see that this is somebody that`s got some kind of abandonment issues, borderline personality disorder --


PINSKY: So there they were, abandonment issues, borderline, boundary issues. Jenny, what do you want to say?

HUTT: I wish that Wendy Walsh was here, because she`d talk about the deep emotional scarring that happened somewhere to this girl. Clearly, that said, I think as Danine said -- listen, I think what Danine said was right. He did sort of toy with her. I think they had sex. And you know what, Dr. Drew? I don`t think it`s exactly the same as Jodi Arias, because she didn`t kill him. Now, that doesn`t mean she won`t, but she didn`t.


PINSKY: Listen, we know that Jodi stalked him before. The problem was he kept going back to her. That`s why the things really got out of control.

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, the sex was great. Exactly.

MANETTE (ph): That`s the problem.

SCHACHER: Yes, that`s the problem. The sex was really good between them. And here`s the thing, though, Dr. Drew. We don`t know if they had sex. Even if they did have sex, even if he did promise her the world, I mean, who cares? Like, listen, no rational person is going to act this way.

This is a crazy stalker, and by her courtroom behavior today, I`m fearful. I mean, she couldn`t control her outbursts.


SCHACHER: She couldn`t even take order from a judge and you`re supposed to be on your best behavior in court. So, she could be dangerous.

PINSKY: Got to leave it there. I agree with you, Sam. I would be concerned if I were him or for his family, for that matter. If you have a question or comment for the "Behavior Bureau," tweet us @DrDrewHLN #BehaviorBureau.

Ahead, more Alec Baldwin -- is there more Alec Baldwin? I believe there is. Yes.

And the dash-cam, police dash-cam. Wow! You`re going to see where that ends up. After this.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. And Jenny, take a look at this tweet from @Christine#C321 (ph). She says -- interesting -- she had. "Alec Baldwin has been nude in any movie or show he`s done because the detail that she may have shown could have been seen during one of those movie or television programs."


PINSKY: Sam, you`re saying yes. Jenny, you say yes.

HUTT: I don`t know if he`s done full frontal, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: No. It was a hip thing, I understand. Wasn`t it, Sam? You guys know what the detail was (ph)?

SCHACHER: Yes. Like a little scar on the hip, she claimed. A little mark on his hip.

ARUTT: Freeze frame.

PINSKY: Back with the Behavior Bureau, Cheryl, Samantha, Danine, and Eric. We`re talking about Alec Baldwin and this alleged stalker. Now, today`s "New York Post" carried this photo of Mr. Baldwin and says "Baldwin win deals with the usual crap on the morning of November 13th."

Poor Alec Baldwin does deal with a lot of crap, don`t you think, Eric? You live in New York. I feel very bad for the stuff he has to put up with sometimes.

AMERICA: Yes, but I mean, you`ve got to look at the person. That`s kind of saying like does everything happen around to me or am I the center of what`s going on? He`s had a lot of problems throughout the year. So, I like him. He`s very likable. He`s a great actor, but I think there`s the common theme is Alec Baldwin within all this.

PINSKY: Go ahead, Jenny.

HUTT: I just want to say, I agree with Erica, but -- and I adore Alec Baldwin, but as a girl who`s had some slightly pathetic moments when I was single, I have felt that horrible, icky feeling when the guy didn`t call --


PINSKY: I wish everyone could have seen what I saw. I saw -- me too, oh my gosh. Oh, yes, I know what she feels like, but you guys didn`t go crazy and stalk the guys or did you?


PINSKY: Wait, wait. I can`t hear anybody. Erica.

AMERICA: Yes. That`s why I brought up the "Sex and the City" quote because that`s something that most women can relate to. This woman, she missed the memo. She missed "Sex and the City." She didn`t see how you talk with your girlfriends, you get over it, and you move on. She continued to stalk him. She e-mailed him. She scared him and that was not right. So, that`s why I started off by saying they`re both guilty in this --

PINSKY: But Danine, you say he`s more guilty, because he played with somebody who had some serious emotional issues, perhaps, unknowingly but that`s the way it goes -- Danine.

MANETTE: Yes. I believe and like I told you the 11th commandment, don`t start none, won`t be none. He assumed that she was going to be OK with him, just playing with her like a toy, and she didn`t go for it. So, now, this is the consequence that --


MANETTE: She is crazy, but -- he was with Kim when he first started flirting with her in the first place. He had no intention on being with her. So, this was a big game to him.

PINSKY: Cheryl, he likes little drama. He likes women that create drama, doesn`t he?

ARUTT: He may, but you know, I feel for Alec Baldwin here. I have to say that I think that he, in tears and all of that, he feels so deeply violated.


ARUTT: Well, yes. But actors have the right to their own feelings, too, and I think she really scared him. And I don`t know that --

PINSKY: Guys, I got to go. I`m sorry I`m out of time but the fact is you`re right, Cheryl. Look, he got involved with her on some level and has feelings about it. She didn`t want this to happen. He`s sorry that she`s suffering. He wants it to end. It should. "Last Call" is next.


PINSKY: We have dramatic dash-cam video from police in Michigan. A driver involved in a chase flees the vehicle -- flees his vehicle, ends up in the guardrail of the highway overpass as a state trooper approaches. The suspect jumps, the trooper tumbled over after. Take a look at this. There goes the trooper.

Both men fell about 35 feet, and they both survived. The trooper, believe it or not, has been released from the hospital. Incredible footage. We just thought we had to share it with you, guys.

Jenny, thanks so much for joining me s tonight. Good job. Thank you all for watching. And a reminder, "HLN After Dark" starts right now.