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PIERS MORGAN LIVE
Racist Graffiti on Massachusetts High School Football Player's Home; Interview with A-Rod's Attorney; Eyewitness to the JFK Assassination; Interview with Governor Scott Walker
Aired November 20, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PIERS MORGAN, CNN ANCHOR: This is PIERS MORGAN LIVE. Welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world. Tonight the N-word strikes again, racist graffiti on a Massachusetts High School football player's home, allegations of bullying now the rest of the season is canceled. I'll talk exclusively to the parents of the 13-year-old boy, the one who's targeted. Also anger management, one embattled Alex Rodriguez says this to WFAN.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALEX RODRIGUEZ: I'm so heated up right now and so pissed off that I'm -- I can't think straight right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: A-Rod's attorney joins me and George Zimmerman traumatized despondent, a side of him we don't often see, his former neighbor defends him tonight. Plus eyewitness to the assassination, a six- year-old boy, who is in the line of fire when JFK was killed, he's all grown up now and joins me tonight to remember that extraordinary day. And what if tragedy hadn't struck 50 years ago, what would America be like today, Jeff Greenfield on how history might have changed forever.
I want to begin though with our big story, the N-word rears its ugly head once again. This time in the Massachusetts town of Lunenburg, while the rest of the High School football team season was canceled after racist graffiti was spray painted on the home of a 13-year-old player, the disturbing charges of more racist behavior and bullying.
Well joining me now exclusively, the parents of 13-year-old Isaac Philips, Andrea Brazier and Anthony Philips, welcome to both of you. Thank you very much for joining the show tonight, and let me start with you Anthony Philips, what exactly is going on here, what was the graffiti and why do you think it was sprayed in the way that it was against your son.
ANTHONY PHILIPS, ISAAC PHILIPS' FATHER: Well, it said, "Knights don't need the N-word" on the side of my foundation. My son was having issues with the football team, that's why we feel that is a football issue. This is not our town, this racist thing, you know, the police have been working hard to try to find, you know, the coward that has, to this -- but with some eye -- with having it as going on with the town I think you know, that person is not going to step forward. MORGAN: How do you feel about the punishment in terms of the fact the whole town now will have to football, do you think it is an appropriate measure to have been taken?
PHILIPS: I think it is inappropriate measure, I feel horrible for, you know, kids that are not involved, what I mean -- we are a small town, I mean things like shouldn't happen in a small community like ours. So when it's now it's like for drastic measure you know, canceling the football season. I think that well flush who ever that it is that's responsible for this to step forward, or maybe put enough pressure forward on them you know, that they will -- they come forward.
MORGAN: I want to play a clip, this is from Isaac himself, he's reaction to what happened.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ISAAC PHILIPS: If that's what going to get someone to say something then, that's -- that is what has to be done.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Andrea as his mother, how do you feel about what's happen your boy, being 13 he obviously enjoyed his sport and it's a horrible thing to have occurred.
ANDREA BRAZIER, MOTHER: It is a horrible thing and he didn't asked for it, he didn't do anything for something like this to happen so it's very sad obviously that it happened especially that it's for my son. But no matter who it would have been towards, it's just a horrible thing to have happen.
MORGAN: And in terms of the previous bullying, and harassment, which we understand was also on the racist nature. What kind of thing has been going on?
BRAZIER: He's cleats were taken out of his locker, water were put on them and they were put in the trash. And also that same day his bike tire was slashed right outside of the school, right outside of the wait room, to the football locker room.
MORGAN: And Anthony Phillips, has he been subjected to other racist abuse?
PHILIPS: What's that, I'm sorry.
MORGAN: I'm sorry, yes, I was just asking you, if he been subjected to other racist abuse, other than the graffiti?
PHILIPS: No, no this was the first incident that ever that word has been used towards my son. You know, we live in a small town, I heard the N-word is a, you know, commonly used because of rappers, it is what I have been told by parents, you know, it's staff you know, that the kids do use it, which is disturbing to me. We are -- This town is a majority full of white people. So I know there's bunch of white kids running around the school, saying yo what's up N-word into each other, using that word. This goes to show you, you know, the mentality of some of these kids.
MORGAN: I mean obviously it's a very emotive issue, we actually had a debate on this show last night about the use of the N-word. I made the point that, you know, if you're going to have rap stars and other leading figures in the black community using that word in songs and everything else, what kind of message does that send to the youth of America?
PHILIPS: Well, I mean, what people fail to say to each other, I mean I guess that's, you know, that's your right. I mean everyone knows a group of white kids shouldn't be saying it ...
BRAZIER: Our kids know. It's not a word that they should be using towards ...
BRAZIER: ... anybody else regardless that it's in songs, regardless of where they hear it. They know what's appropriate and not appropriate.
MORGAN: And Andrea, do you think that Isaac knows who sprayed this graffiti?
BRAZIER: No, he does not.
PHILIPS: I think that's what's bothering him the most about this situation is because he doesn't know who it is. He fails, you know, he's obviously having issues on the, you know, about the football team. He feels as it is the football number, you know, someone close to him, he doesn't want to go to the school anymore, we've been trying to keep him home to give him time because we want him to return back to the school. We don't want him to let these cowards win. We realize it's not the whole football team, you know, we realize it's unfortunate that some of these seniors may not be able to play their last game, you know.
But like I spoke today in the meeting at the school committee meeting instead of everyone lashing out, I mean the game is a week from now. Let's just hope that someone comes forward instead of the 500 plus supporters of the game and, you know, it's for the games to be played. You know I believe that support should be, you know, put on ...
BRAZIER: To finding out who did it.
PHILIPS: ... you know, finding that who did it, you know, and so then they can play that game. Like I said, the game is only a week away. And from what I understand, I mean I'm sure the other team will like to have the game too. If this is Tuesday night and still no one comes to the bowl I guess that everyone can be mad and no one's playing that game.
But as far as I'm concerned, you still have plenty of time to put that game on if that's what you want. Obviously, you know, the chicken bowl, but that doesn't affect the seniors, you know, that I'm talking about the seniors, you know. Putting that pressure on these cowards, these few individuals that is making this town seeing like it's racist, you know, have them come forward, you know, so you guys can play the game.
MORGAN: Andrea, let me just put to you what the Boston Herald said because not everybody agrees with the punishment that's permitted out here. They said in a lead or article, "Quitter's never win. Winner's never quit. Does high school sports teach any lesson more fundamental or important than that? So why is the Lunenburg High School Football team quitting? Why is the town of Lunenburg letting one incident of racist stupidity shut them down?"
What is your reaction to that? Because clearly the Boston Herald is saying it and a number of people will be agreeing with that, I'll imagine, or they wouldn't have said something so contentious. What is your opinion?
BRAZIER: I don't think it's labeling them as quitters at all by doing that. I think it's showing an action that -- well showing that they're taking action and that they're not going to allow something like this to happen.
PHILIPS: Yes, and like ...
MORGAN: And final question for you Anthony.
MORGAN: Yes, I'm just going to -- last, Anthony how is Isaac? And I mean how does he feel about the fact that football has been suspended? Does he just want it get it sorted as quickly as possible?
PHILIPS: Well, yes, you know, that, you know, he would be -- I mean that he would love to be playing. He doesn't know who's done this to him. Like I said he really feels it was someone close to him. I mean, we're looking for answers we didn't ask for all this media press just kind of blew up in our face. I feel we've been trying to do the best we can to, you know, support Isaac along with -- listen to the school committee, the superintendent, allow the police to do their investigation.
You know, I'm disturbed by some people's comments, you know, for instance that the Boston Herald guys comments. I'm not a quitter. My kid even after his (inaudible) got slashed, you know, he was still playing. He was still hanging around with those kids knowing that this was happening. We brought it to coach's attention, nothing was done. I mean, what are we supposed to do? Wake up and find that on the side of my house and am I supposed to paint it over and not say anything? This is a small town. I coach for this town the Lunenburg Bengals, the second, third (inaudible) we went undefeated that my eight-year-old is a big part of that team.
He's asking me tonight, is he going to have to leave school? Like this is a situation that is, you know, spiraled into something else. I mean, my kid was the victim. MORGAN: Yes.
PHILIPS: And honestly ...
BRAZIER: It's not a town issue. It's not the whole entire town.
BRAZIER: At all which I know a lot of people are portraying in making the whole, entire Blue Knight's team to be racist and that's definitely not what we're trying to say and all we do realize it is only a few, 1, 2, 3, whatever these individuals, but they are a team (inaudible).
MORGAN: Right. And the reality is there's somebody somewhere -- knows who did this and they need to come forward ...
MORGAN: ... or expose them as the gutless little cowards that they are because what they did to your son was frankly utterly disgusting.
Anthony Phillips and Andrea Brazier, thank you very, very much for joining me. Say my very best to Isaac. I hope he's back playing football soon and I hope these horrible little bullies get discovered very quickly. Thank you very much for joining me.
BRAZIER: Thank you.
PHILLIPS: Thank you Piers for having us. Thank you.
MORGAN: Meanwhile in New York City a sports superstar on the defensive tonight. The Yankee's Alex Rodriguez storming out of an arbitration hearing into a suspension of accusations he used performance-enhancing drugs. A-Rod later said he thinks major league baseball Commissioner Bud Selig is trying to destroy his career, pretty in sentry to charges.
Well, joining me now is Alex Rodriguez' attorney Joe Tacopina. Joe, pretty remarkable scene today. Why was A-Rod so uptight about everything?
JOE TACOPINA, ATTORNEY FOR ALEX RODRIGUEZ: Uptight is not the word. I mean, just absolutely flabbergasted the fact that his accuser, the individual who has signed off on an unprecedented historical, unwarranted suspension, refused to come to this proceeding when he's the one who made this decision to invoke 211 games against Alex, again, unprecedented, unwanted come here, sit in the chair, take an oath, explain your unprecedented, unexplainable decision to make the suspension.
What is really is Piers is cowardice and hypocrisy. Hypocrisy because he went on national TV, one of the David Letterman Show and joked about it in the summer prior to hemming down the suspension, had no problem talking about it then but he won't come into Alex' proceeding where he wants to destroy this guy's career and take an oath and asked some (inaudible) questions. It's unbelievable to me.
MORGAN: Well, let's take a listen to Alex Rodriguez have to say today. This was to WFAN Radio.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALEX RODRIGUEZ: My only message to the Commissioner is I know you don't like New York but come to New York and face some music.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What about you? Does he like you?
RODRIGUEZ: He hates my guts. There's no question about it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Isn't that the only ...
RODRIGUEZ: And 100 percent this is personal. And I think this is about his legacy and it's about my legacy and he's trying to destroy me and by the way, he's retiring 2014 and to put me in his big mantle on the way out, that's a hell of a trophy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Let me ask you this Joe Tacopina. Why just so few people believe Alex Rodriguez? Why there's so many think that he's just another Lance Armstrong in the making?
TACOPINA: Well, honestly, I have no idea. I've come to know him and he's a spectacular human being. I mean, he's someone who gives of himself. The charitable deeds he does no one even knows about. He's someone who doesn't gripe and complain about those today. He lost it for a good reason.
He sat through 10 days, 10 days of this proceeding where he listened to this guy, Tony Bosch, come in there, make up stories about him, be impeached to the point where he's slither (ph) off the witness then yet he has to sit there and he was waiting for his turn to put on his case.
The witness we chose to call to explain his decision which we knew he couldn't explain would be Commissioner Selig. The individual who testified in the state of court (ph) to MLB -- MLB is putting our statement that will, you know, Mr. Manfred testified, the COO of baseball, regarding the explanation of the suspension. That's not true Pierce.
Mr. Manfred basically deferred to Mr. Selig. He said, "It wasn't my decision. It was Bud Selig's decision. It wasn't my call. It was Bud Selig's call. He is the one who unilateral made this decision."
If that's the case, how is it possible that we cannot call him in this proceeding to question him about how we got the 211 games? How is that every other player ...
MORGAN: But let me ask you this.
TACOPINA: Sure. MORGAN: Let me ask you this Joe. I mean, I think the -- is your real bone of contention, both you and your client, the scale of the punishment or the accusation itself that he cheated. I mean, do you accept and does he accept, that he did take performance-enhancing drugs? Are you simply enraged by what you view as (inaudible)?
TACOPINA: There's not a human being with a brain that has a motivation to go against Alex that thinks everyone else gets 50 and Alex gets 211 and that's normal. I mean, the people who rallied behind him just for that purpose, alone, is one thing.
But let me very clear, Piers, and we're talking about the -- not the time that Alex said in 2001, he used performance-enhancing drugs an admission he made that he didn't have to make because he wasn't running the charges.
Alex Rodriguez did not take performance-enhancing drugs in this time from that they were questioning. He made an admission from over 10 years ago, that's one thing. We're talking about 2010, 11 and 12. He did not take performance-enhancing drugs. As a matter of fact ...
MORGAN: When was the last time took, you know?
TACOPINA: As a matter of fact -- well, Alex has admitted that. Again, this is over a decade ago or so, back when he played for the Texas Rangers. And by the way ...
MORGAN: So, just to clarify. Alex Rodriguez says and you believe him that he's not taking performance-enhancing drugs for at least a decade?
TACOPINA: I absolutely believe him, because I've seen the evidence and it would defy science. It would absolutely defy science, because based on what this guy Bud is accusing him of, the scientific results of test would make it impossible, impossible for Alex not to have tested positive.
MORGAN: OK. Joe Tacopina, always good to talk to you. Thank you very much for coming in the show.
TACOPINA: Thank you.
MORGAN: When we come back George Zimmerman's former neighbor defends him. And later what if JFK had lived and won reelection. What was second Kennedy term have been like?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Samantha Scheibe and her mother Hope Mason described George Zimmerman as alone, depressed and fascinated by guns.
Scheibe says she feared him but she stayed with him because she thought she could help him. She reached out to me about doing an interview three weeks ago. That's when she says she and George had an argument over her demand that he get professional help for his depression.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: George Zimmerman's girlfriend described him as depressed and fascinated by guns. But the man who shot Trayvon Martin and was found not guilty of murder has his defenders one of them joins me now, Frank Taffy is a former neighbor of Zimmerman's. He's also a former neighborhood watch block captain.
Welcome to you Mr. Taaffe. What is your reaction to this latest incident involving your friend George Zimmerman, given it's now the fourth time I think that he's been involved in such a clash with the police?
FRANK TAAFFE, FMR NEIGHBORHOOD WATCH BLOCK CAPTAIN: Well, Piers in my honest opinion and I'm not medical doctor, but I believed that George is suffering from untreated post traumatic stress disorder. And I based it upon, you know, some of the criteria that I read in the DSM- IV which is now the V. One of the guess on another show is on correcting me on that and that's really no different in the version.
But, you know, it has a manifestation, you know, first of all, George is spiritual, a very religious person. He comes from a very religious family where, you know, they believe in the 10 commandments. And one of the commandments is thou shall not kill. Even though the act itself was deemed self defense, he was acquitted all the charges of second degree murder. But you know, we as human beings, you know, we have those suppressed feelings and I believed that this is just a manifestation of that PTSD which I believed right now, this should be treated. And ...
MORGAN: Right. But if he is suffering for all of this, what is he doing in a house full of guns, AR-15, shotguns, handguns? I mean surely, is it absolute recipe for potential disaster all over again.
TAAFFE: Well boys will have their toys as they say but, you know, he has ...
TAAFFE: ... always been around ...
TAAFFE: ...he's always been around weapons (inaudible) ...
MORGAN: Wait, wait a minute.
TAAFFE: ... he's always had guns.
MORGAN: Wait a minute. Boys will have their toys, is that really ...
MORGAN: ... what you just said.
TAAFFE: Yes. It's not unusual that ...
MORGAN: George Zimmerman who shot dead an unarmed teenager and got off a murder rap. You're saying he should keep the guns despite his apparent trauma over the whole thing because boys want their toys.
TAAFFE: Piers let's review this, OK. He was acquitted of all charges.
MORGAN: Why wouldn't you review what you just said and think very carefully about what you just said sir.
TAAFFE: I just did.
MORGAN: Boys and their toys.
TAAFFE: It's a hobby. People have hobbies and toys. He is not in any violation of any law.
MORGAN: They're not toys. Mr. Taaffe, guns are not toys.
TAAFFE: It's a cliche Piers. It's a cliche. OK.
MORGAN: It's not a cliche.
TAAFFE: It's no slogan.
MORGAN: And someone knows slogan?
TAAFFE: You know, you know, what ...
MORGAN: Guns are not as toys.
TAAFFE: ... I understand.
MORGAN: AR-15 on their toys.
TAAFFE: Listen, I'm -- I understand how grave the situation was. OK. I ...
MORGAN: But why'd you trivialized it ...
TAAFFE: ... kind of impact was (inaudible).
MORGAN: ... by describing guns as toys.
TAAFFE: It's not trivialized, it's just a cliche Piers, roll with it. OK.
MORGAN: How would you feel if Trayvon Martin's parents
TAAFFE: ... work it on me (ph) on this one.
MORGAN: ...trade on that he's parents are watching this very show tonight. Is it may well be and they hear you a George Zimmerman's good friend apparently defending him ...
TAAFFE: Piers ...
MORGAN: ... by saying boys need to use their toys.
TAAFFE: ... he has not violated -- he still has his second amendment right to carry any amount of weaponry he wants. He has not been convicted of any charges and you can have as many weapons as you want.
MORGAN: Even though you yourself ...
TAAFFE: It don't matter what -- even though. It has nothing to do with even though.
MORGAN: No, it does actually.
TAAFFE: Even though (ph) in fact.
MORGAN: With respect, the facts are what you have told me ...
TAAFFE: Jesus Christ
MORGAN: ... assuming ...
TAAFFE: You want to hear the facts?
MORGAN: I'm just asking you this. Assuming that you know George Zimmerman as well as you claim to
TAAFFE: OK. And I'm trying to answer you. Piers, I'm trying to answer you.
MORGAN: If I may finish my question.
TAAFFE: Go ahead.
MORGAN: Assuming that you know him as well as you claim to, your opening statement to me was that you believed, George Zimmerman is so traumatized by killing somebody that he may be suffering from post traumatic stress disorder. And I asked you on that basis ...
TAAFFE: He has not turn -- he has not used (inaudible).
MORGAN: ... why should he be in a room full of guns.
TAAFFE: Piers, he has not discharged the weapon and these women, who I deem to be opportunistic and part of the PTSD is that he's extremely vulnerable at this point of his life. OK. And you know, with this untreated PTSD he's just been through ...
MORGAN: What's up to me like the (ph) women -- the women around him may also argue very strongly that they too are vulnerable around George Zimmerman. Who you say has post traumatic ...
MORGAN: ... stress disorder, treats guns like toys. And it seems to be a familiar pattern of him threatening his women ... TAAFFE: No, I must say that it's a cliche. Listen to my words.
MORGAN: ... with his toys.
TAAFFE: Please, please listen to my words.
MORGAN: They're you're words.
TAAFFE: And I'll listen to you. OK. Yes.
MORGAN: Now your words.
TAAFFE: It's just a cliche. He did -- He has not violated any codes. OK. Nobody -- Anybody who wants to bear arms could bear as many arms, it's plural, the right to bear arms. It doesn't say right bear arm, does it? Have you read the second amendment? Is it say right to bear arm in it?
MORGAN: How many -- My point was you said as his friend, he's suffering from a mental illness, post traumatic stress disorder. I then said to you if that is the case ...
TAAFFE: No, I said he's suffering from untreated ...
MORGAN: ... why should he have so many guns?
TAAFFE: You know how do I know? You want to know how I know? OK. Let's take the event, the life changing event, the trauma that he has just experienced, OK. He's on his way out to target and next thing you know, he's living his life on the run and he's got quite a few people after him, OK, because they believe that he murdered as you call it unarmed teenager, OK?
MORGAN: He killed unarmed teenager. Yeah.
TAAFFE: Piers ...
MORGA: That's what he did.
TAAFFE: ... facts in the case were proven beyond a reasonable doubt, OK? Let's talk facts and evidence here. You want to talk about the acquittal which is still very bitter in the minds of a lot of Americans and you know what, I kind of feeling -- I'm feeling that resentment, but you know what, get over it, OK? He's been acquitted. The man is now suffering from PTSD, a life-changing event, a trauma that was experienced. And in the DSM-IV which I read earlier tonight which states that, you know, it takes place in or around four months. That's the interval. And also, that PTSD is directly correlated with a majority of domestic violence cases. Are you aware of that?
MORGAN: Well, I'm increasingly aware that there must be a correlation between his mental condition and his propensity to threaten women with guns, yes, because that seems to be a pattern with every woman that he comes across.
TAAFFE: That's your version. If you would -- Piers, if you listen to his call, he said they asked him do you have a weapon? He said yes, but it's in the box and it's locked up. So, you know ...
TAAFFE: ... Piers, there is your side, their side, and the truth. That's why we have a court of law and it's called due process ...
MORGAN: It's not my side. It's not my side. I don't have a side. I'm not the law enforcement. They are the ones who arrested and didn't charge him. Not me.
TAAFFE: OK, you know what, there is their side, his side, and the truth. And the truth ...
TAAFFE: ... will set you free.
MORGAN: OK. Well, consider me liberated. Frank Taaffe, thank you very much indeed. We'll be right back with Gloria Allred with her reactions on extraordinary interview.
MORGAN: You just heard my extraordinary interview with George Zimmerman's former neighbor. I want to know now what Gloria Allred thinks. Gloria you've been sitting here looking as I was feeling lately appalled by what was coming out in his mouth. I mean, what do you make of that?
GLORIA ALLRED, CIVIL RIGHTS LAWYER: Absolutely appalled, but Piers, I think there were some hints of what his possible defense maybe if as his prosecution proceeds involving the alleged victim Samantha, his girlfriend. And the hint is first of all he said opportunistic women.
So, I think that one of the arguments maybe that Samantha is opportunistic, that in fact she reached out to do an interview about George several weeks before this occurred. Today, I hear a news report I don't know if it's true or not that perhaps she might be thinking to be paid for in the interview. I hope that's not the case because that would hurt the prosecution ...
MORGAN: What about his wife?
ALLRED: ... that would help the defense ...
MORGAN: What about his wife and about the other women and his past who also made similar allegation ...
ALLRED: Well, exactly.
MORGAN: ... there's pattern now. Are they all opportunists?
ALLRED: Well -- but I mean according to his friend that appears to be the point of view that is at least his friend has. But the point is I hope that Samantha does not fall into a trap of A, giving any interviews at least until those prosecution concludes. And B, certainly if she does do any interviews not to accept any money for it because then she's going to be attacked as somebody who's just doing this and making these allegations for the purpose of money or for fame. And that will not be good for the case.
MORGAN: What about the casual way George Zimmerman's good friend just threw out defending the fact he has a house full of guns until yesterday when they took it away as part of his bond deal. He said well boys will have their toys.
ALLRED: Exactly. And at that same time ...
MORGAN: I stuttered when I heard him say that.
ALLRED: I noticed and at the same time he's arguing that he should be able to have his so called toys-guns which of course lethal weapons. And we know that because for Trayvon Martin is certainly a victim.
MORGAN: He's already killed somebody with a gun.
ALLRED: Exactly. And at the same time suffer from post traumatic stress syndrome. So, what I would ask is if he's had this, how long has he been this way? And has he been seeking counseling? How -- What kind of counseling? For how long has he been going to counseling or why has he not been going to counseling? And that is dangerous. And it is often reported to be a defense in many domestic violence cases where guns are often used to hurt the significant other, the spouse or the girlfriend.
MORGAN: I want to play a quick clip. This is from an AC 360 interview with one of the jurors who acquitted George Zimmerman.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: People have now remarks subsequently that he gets his gun back. And there's some people who said that he gets it is -- he can have a gun worries them. Does that worry you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That doesn't worry me. I think he'd be more responsible than anybody else on this planet right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: I mean, again, you know, you listen to that and you think is he just somebody who's a bit of a sociopath. The fact he made that very reasonable call to the police. And a few were being very cynically you'd say he knew, he'd exploded again, lost his temper, threatened someone with a gun and decided right. I know how to play the system, I know how to work the law, I'm going to call the police, I'm really calm and reasonable at which time probably put the gun back or whatever and who knows what the truth is but he wouldn't put it past and given the pattern of behavior.
ALLRED: In a sense he's trying to testify without being under oath through a 911 call. Of course that's not the purpose of a 911 call. On the call, the dispatcher is saying "The police are right outside essentially, why are you calling me?" Obviously it's a PR stunt. He's trying to get his message out to the public. He did get his message out to the public. The question is, do we believe that message? And I think it's, you know, it can be seen by people who would be a little cynical as just too artificial and something he did for PR purposes solely.
MORGAN: Boy will have their toys, likewise extraordinary comment but ...
ALLRED: Yes. By the way the second amendment can be restricted and often is restricted by a judge in a domestic violence situation where they issued a court order that you cannot be around guns if you are convicted and sometimes pending the conclusion of a prosecution.
MORGAN: Gloria Allred, thank you very much indeed.
ALLRED: Thank you.
MORGAN: Coming up watch out Chris Christie, another Republican rising star who might just give you a run for your money. Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker joins me as live next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The screen says "I'm sorry your system is temporarily down".
SEC. KATHLEEN SEBELIUS, HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES: That's OK. It will come back. Because, you know, that happens everyday.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Health and Human Services, Secretary Kathleen Sebelius taking all the heat of the failure of ObamaCare and the GOP is out to keep the pressure on her boss.
Joining me now a rising Republican star is the author of "Unintimidated: A Governor's Story and a Nation's Challenge." In the Chair with me tonight Governor Scott. Governor welcome to you.
GOV. SCOTT WALKER, (R) WISCONSIN: Good to be with you again. Thanks for having me Piers.
MORGAN: Are we now in a position where the Republicans would love Kathleen Sebelius to keep her job for as a long as humanly possible?
WALKER: Well, obviously many of us like myself warned about the problems we're seeing with ObamaCare and not just with the rollout but with the program itself.
But as I have cautioned to many other Republicans in my statement across the countries, we need to be very careful. We need to be joining with Americans whether they were for or against the Affordable Care Act and joined in their frustration, not in anyway look like we're relishing this or if ObamaCare goes over the cliff we shouldn't be the ones pushing it. We should be back trying to help everyday Americans find a better, a better alternative and that's exactly what we're trying to do.
MORGAN: Does the apparent catastrophe of ObamaCare in any way justify the government shutdown? Was it a time the Republicans were getting all the heat for forcing that, but now some are saying, "Well, they had a point, didn't they?"
WALKER: Well, I said months ago, so long before this so I'm not hindsight 20/20 but I had said back in August that I think the federal government is too big, too expensive that takes on too many responsibilities for individual's lives. But what I thought was necessary was left the few things that aren't necessary in the government are things that should work. And I had a difficult time justifying that making it work meant shutting it down.
I do think drawing attention to ObamaCare and the preceded failures was important, but as we've seen you don't need a Republican to point that out. Everyday people are finding out sadly everyday that -- not only is the website not working but the program itself is not working. And it seems like every time someone from this Administration comes forward that there seemed to be even more problems on the horizon including even more details about the website itself not only not working but not being fully built out.
MORGAN: Indeed it does. Let's play a clip now from -- this is you on this week. You're talking about who should be president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WALKER: I think it's got to be an outsider. I think both the presidential and the vice presidential nomination either be a former or current governor and people who've done successful things in their states have taken on big reforms or ready to move America forward.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: So we did a better research into who you ruled out with that comment. There'd be no Marco Rubio, no Ted Cruz, no Paul Ryan, no Rand Paul. Now a cynic, my suggest, Governor, that you deliberately ruled them out because they're full and quite useful candidates and it clears the decks for you.
WALKER: Well, they are great people. But in my book and the purpose of the question I was asked in that interview was who would my ideal candidate be. And it ultimately would be either current or former governor. I tell stories in my book about what governors are doing all across America, that's the one bright shiny spot for Senate right voters across this country after last year's presidential election is that in 30 states, there's Republican governors, there's Republican state lawmakers who are out there leading the way with real reforms.
And I think most people, Republican and Democrat alike looking at Washington would like to see some outsiders coming and shake things up. One of the few exceptions on that list probably would be someone like Paul Rand who I know firsthand has been a true reformer. He's from Wisconsin but I've seen broader than that, he's one of the few people who have the courage to take on Washington. And the other folks are good decent people but really reform is happening in the states and that's why I made the point I made.
MORGAN: And tell us where the Republican Party is. I mean many people have been talking you up as a potential candidate, they've obviously talked about Chris Christie in glowing terms, he's a governor so he takes your box.
What it'll come down to you surely is who wins the civil war within your party? Who wins the GOP battle for hearts and minds? In the sense that it's likely to be either a Tea Party candidate or a moderate candidate. It can't be both. You obviously veer more to the Tea Party side. If somebody like you electable to the Republican Party as their nominee?
WALKER: Oh, I think any of the 30 Republican Governors are and I think they prove it in the states. I mean think about states like Iowa, Ohio, Wisconsin, Michigan, you look at Florida, you look at New Mexico and Nevada what do all those states have in common? They're all battleground states in the Presidential election that Barack Obama carried in the last presidential election. And yet they're all states governed by Republican Governors, why? Because we have an optimistic vision for the futures of our state, we talk about it in terms that are relevant to everyday people.
And then most importantly, we show we have the courage to put those reforms into place not just to talk about it but to actually put them into action to better serve the people of our states and that's where I do think you can bridge that gap being optimistic and focused on economic and fiscal issues. That's what we're doing in the states and that's what needs to be done in America.
MORGAN: Governor, it's a fascinating selling book "Unintimidated: A Governor's Story, A Nation's Challenge". Scott Walker, good to talk to you.
WALKERS: Piers, good to be with you.
MORGAN: When we come back, the witness who was just six years old when JFK was killed right before his eyes. Also, how the world would be different if Kennedy had lived. Jeff Greenfield on what re-elected JFK would have done.
MORGAN: President Obama and the First Lady, the Clintons, and members of the Kennedy family at Arlington today laying a wreath at the grave of John F. Kennedy. President Obama is the first president to (inaudible) as their memory of the assassination. He was only two years old at that time.
Joining me now a man was six and remembers all too well, Jeff Franzen and his parents were directly the line of fire. Also, Jeff Greenfield will join me in his new book "If Kennedy Lived." Imagine what America and the world would be like if JFK won a second term. Welcome to both of you.
Jeff Franzen, let me start with you. It's one of the most iconic images imaginable. There you are, a six-year-old boy literally in the line of file watching all happened right in front of your eyes. Take me back to that moment and what you experienced and what you are feeling.
JEFF FRANZEN, EYEWITNESS TO KENNEDY ASSASSINATION: Yes, we have gone downtown because it was my mother's birthday and had -- and really anticipated the parade causing that much issues and so we're really were just kind of waiting buying time, dad knew Dallas well enough that we stayed in this park nearby the end of the parade and just really expected just a quick parade that go by and then go on a better shopping.
MORGAN: And when you realized what had happened, did you think that the president have been shot? Did you think something was going on? What was your mind telling you?
FRANZEN: Yeah. I was only, you know, I was very young obviously six or seven, I felt like it was a parade, there firecrackers were popping, which made sense to me its only a sound and even talking about mother recently. She is into these firecrackers also. And then unfortunately, the shot that killed the president, it looked like confetti just coming out of the car and you just assume that's what it was.
MORGAN: Your father I believe threw you on the floor and your mother and -- to protect you from potentially anymore bullets. At what point did you realized what have actually happened and how did your parents deal with protecting you as the fact, you're so young?
FRANZEN: Yeah. Dad was -- Dad had served in the military in the South Pacific so I think, you know, I was talking to him today too and I asked him that question. He knew instantly. He knew instantly when the shot occurred and he saw his head and he felt like he was dead that moment.
In fact, we went from there to talk to the FBI and he said the first call the FBI, they were very casual about it and all of a sudden he could hear somebody in the room say, "Kennedy's been shot." And with that, they sent three FBI agents over immediately.
MORGAN: Is there a day, Jeff Franzen, when you don't think about that day back in Dallas in '63?
FRANZEN: Yes. In fact, people have asked me, you know, was seeing someone shot in front of you would have that negative impact on you. Fortunately because I was so young, I think -- I couldn't even begin to comprehend that somebody was being killed in front of me but, certainly, it's more of an interesting tidbit of history that I just happened to be there.
MORGAN: Yeah. That's certainly was an extraordinary eye witness account. Jeff Franzen, thank you very much, indeed, for joining me. Let's turn on to John Greenfield. Jeff, you've written this fascinating book, "If Kennedy Lived" all based on the premise that if they've had, you know, the right kind of shield and the bullets hadn't got to the president and he served the second term and we hadn't have this gutsy (ph) assassination. What America would've been like? What was your conclusion?
JEFF GREENFIELD, AUTHOR, "IF KENNEDY LIVED": Would've been very different, principally because I think based on the evidence, not wishful thinking, not some gassy (ph) hope that he probably would not have gone into Vietnam. And without a major land war in Asia, the whole late 1960s becomes very different. Without a war, the counterculture which would've happen becomes, if I can borrow President Bush's term, kinder and gentler.
You don't have flag burning, you don't have a weather underground, you don't have lurch toward violence, you don't have a Democratic party with ripped apart in 1968. And if I'm right about this and I think the evidence points to the probability they would've stayed out based on the way he'd govern.
MORGAN: He was a man of peace in many ways. You know, I had his -- I had Bobby Kennedy's, son on last week talking about how really he was -- almost everything he did was designed avoidal (ph).
GREENFIELD: Later, he runs as a hawk, he wanted to take the offense if he tried to topple Castro and I think the lessons of the (inaudible) then your nuclear confrontation with Cuba or with the Soviet Union over Cuba, his skepticism about the military changed him.
We saw that in the speech he gave at America University where he said we have to rethink the Cold War. Even after he went to the Berlin Wall and gave and rouse and communist speech to sign a nuclear test ban treaty. He just was looking to the lower the temperature. And he'd been to Vietnam as a young congressman and knew -- said even back then, nationalism's a powerful weapon, powerful force.
So that's the principal difference. The other difference is we'll -- I hate the phrase loss of innocence, it's a cliche. We've lost our innocence 500 times since we were a country. But the line of November 22nd, pre and post, is dramatic because the country was in an optimistic upbeat frame of mind.
MORGAN: They were because they saw John F. Kennedy as he's incredibly charismatic, dynamic great guy with a beautiful family. What would've happened if within two, three years, all the infidelities and scandals had come out? How would he have dealt with that as a serving president?
GREENFIELD: This was the darker side. My basis and it's the plot of this book is his political enemy seek to get this information out because they don't like what he's doing on the Cold War. And he and his brother Robert -- I worked for Robert Kennedy, I think he's a great man -- that they use some pretty drastic tactics back then even when the issue was still price -- still companies range in the prices. I think the power of the presidency and the Attorney General would have been used in full measure to try to keep that story quiet because unlike the '90s, John Kennedy couldn't go on television and say, "I've caused pain in my marriage and get away with it". So it would have been a threat.
MORGAN: That would've ended his presidency?
GREENFIELD: Had it come out? I believe it would've post a mortal political threat to his presidency but for the sake of my plot, I suggest that he might have been able to keep it quiet. The other thing is the press was different.
The press did have much more hesitancy about getting this over his private life and we did not have YouTube...
GREENFIELD: ... selfies, Twitter, 24-hour cable news...
GREENFIELD: ... it's a different.
MORGAN: Just as well, I would have thought for President Kennedy.
GREENFIELD: I don't want to put you out of work here because you are in a cable network, so.
MORGAN: How do you deal with the Civil Rights issue? Would you've been like Johnson, very proactive, or would've been a bit wary, do you think?
GREENFIELD: I think it would be less (inaudible). Johnson was a master of the Senate. He was a Southerner. He could talk to the Southern segregationists and don't forget Kennedy's death in and of itself is a powerful force to get that little task.
I think he was -- he saw civil rights even after he had thrown the presidency's power on and back of it as a political problem, not just in the South, in the white working class neighborhoods in the North. I think we would have gotten there because the moral force was too strong but I think it would have been less successful.
MORGAN: Does your gut tell you finally and briefly if you don't mind. Would he have become a truly great president, do you think?
GREENFIELD: It's very hard to cut through what the death meant and how that put him in a different category, I think he would have been seen by historians as a reasonably successfully president and avoiding World War III gets -- that's a lot of points for me.
MORGAN: Yeah. It'd be really great. Jeff Greenfield, thank you very much indeed.
GREENFIELD: Thank you.
MORGAN: "What if Kennedy Live. The first and second terms of President John F. Kennedy in an alternate history fascinating thesis. We'll be right back.
MORGAN: Tomorrow night, CNN's special, The Assassination of President Kennedy. How our view of that terrible day has changed 50 years later. On Friday Night, I'll be back with members of the Kennedy family and the secret service agent that risked his life in a doomed attempt to save the president. That's all for us tonight. AC 360 Later, starts right now.