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Anger Over Rapists Release
Aired December 5, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, he attacked more than 30 women and is now about to be set free. No one wants the pillowcase rapist in their community. Would you?
Plus, a kidnapper with a hostage leads police on a 100-mile-an-hour chase.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If he continues to follow me, I will kill her.
PINSKY: The behavior bureau breaks it all down.
And take a look at this -- a selfie at a funeral. Have we gone too far? My experts have answers.
Let`s get started.
PINSKY: Good evening, everybody.
My co-host is attorney and Sirius XM Radio host Jenny Hutt.
JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: Hello.
PINSKY: And, Jenny, coming up, the kidnapper called 911, as he`s running from police, with a hostage as a passenger.
Before we get to that, though, we`re going to talk about the pillowcase rapist who attacked 40 women in the 1970s and `80s. He was deemed a, quote, "sexually violent predator in 1996, locked away in a state mental hospital ever since.
But now, a judge has decided that Christopher Hubbart should be set free to a certain extent.
HUTT: I don`t get it. I don`t get it.
PINSKY: Well -- and every time he`s been out before, he has raped. So the question everyone is asking, will he do it all again?
Take a look at this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So he`s a mental sick case and they`re going to put him in a community full of kids.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hubbart admitted to raping and molesting women at two-week intervals over a two-and-a-half-year period from 1969 to 1972.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was convicted, he served time, and then he was released, because state doctors determined he was no longer a threat. Until 1996, he was finally declared a sexually violent predator.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With approximately 40 rapes Hubbert admitted to over the next 10 years.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He belongs in a mental institution in a state hospital.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But was never charged for approximately 70 unreported rapes. Prosecutors say Hubbart continued raping and sexually assaults after each parole.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One of the times that he was released, he raped that same day.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is the house where serial rapist Christopher Hubbart could end up living.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I rent from the guy who`s going to rent this property to this convicted rapist.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After all these years, all those attacks, he set to be free again.
PINSKY: So, Hubbart has been cleared to live in the Los Angeles neighborhood that you just saw there. The residents are obviously outraged.
Joining us to discuss: Mark Eiglarsh, attorney at speaktomark.com; Loni Coombs, former prosecutor and author of "You`re Perfect and Other Lies Parents Tell", Ann Coulter, political and social commentator, author of "Never Trust a Liberal Over 3, Especially a Republican"; and Emily Miller, senior editor of opinion at "The Washington Times", and author of "Emily Gets Her Gun".
Ann, I`m going to start with you. You know, the incomprehensible -- I mean, there are people for doing nonviolent crimes for life after three strikes. This guy every time he gets out, he attacks somebody. Shouldn`t people be outraged?
ANN COULTER, POLITICAL & SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, I think they should be. It goes beyond three strikes. It`s 38 strikes, as you pointed out.
He`s been -- the state authorities overseeing him have approved him for release before. This will be the third time. The last two times, he immediately went back to raping.
I mean, it just seems to me someone has to bear the burden here. I`m thinking it should be the guy who`s already committed 38 rapes, and not the innocent potential victims in the community he`s moving to.
PINSKY: Emily, you agree?
EMILY MILLER, THE WASHINGTON TIMES: Yes, absolutely I agree. You know, there are some cases, especially the sexual predators, Dr. Drew, you know better than all of us, they can`t be cured. They let him out once and he went back to raping.
Of course, he`s going back to it. The excuse the doctors are giving saying he`s been cured? A man who cured 40 -- I`m sorry, a man who raped 40 women and put pillowcases over their mouths so they couldn`t scream. That`s no curable crime.
PINSKY: Yes. And, Mark, it almost get to the point of absurd. It sounds like we`re doing a "Saturday Night Live" skit here, where we go, well, you know, he`s out and he`s back to his old profession of raping. What are you going to do?
And, you know, the status they created to him, this violent predator, whatever this is -- that category was, was created to hold that guy, my understanding is. So, how come they can`t do something now? Or is this sort of level of care that they`re going to put him in, where they have a monitoring bracelet, they report his movement.
Actually, before you answer, Mark -- throw that stuff on the screen if you would. This is the level of care he`s going to be at, we`re they`re monitoring very carefully, and to submit to polygraphs, other tests, weekly reporting psychologist visit, reporting his movement to somebody. I guess he`s P.O.
Mark, is that enough?
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Listen -- all right, let`s start off. I don`t want this creep in my neighborhood, period. And the question I would ask the doctor who found him to be safe, let`s say he was doing some handyman work, and you had him do some work in your house and you`d have to leave, but you had your wife who was going to be in the home? Would you leave this guy alone with your wife alone? I know the answer to that. He would never do that.
So, the question is, how can you say this guy is safe? But I don`t blame the judge. The judge has an obligation, not to make the determination on his own. He relies upon experts.
The doctors say, I don`t know if it`s one or two, this guy is OK, he`s not going to reoffend, let him out. What I`m pleased with is the list of things you put on there. At least there`s some monitoring of his guy, because you know how many people were released from prison with none of those safeguards? They`re done. They`re not on parole. They`re not on probation. They`re out there to rape again.
HUTT: But, Mark, to your point. A couple things. Number one, the community is asking the judge to live next door to this guy. So, the community is clearly not happy with the decision.
And, B, even with that list you just showed us, Dr. Drew, I feel like there`s loopholes. There`s ways to get around them. They`re not going to know exactly where he stops for sure on the way to the check-in. This guy could rape anywhere, unless he`s monitored 24 hours a day.
EIGLARSH: Jen, you`re a lawyer. The law is the law.
HUTT: I am a lawyer.
EIGLARSH: You can`t change the rules at the 11th hour. You don`t change the rules.
LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, maybe we could --
EIGLARSH: The judge has to follow them.
PINSKY: Hold on. One at a time. Loni?
COOMBS: Jenny is right. There`s nothing fail-safe. There are loopholes. People have been put on this program before.
If they can`t find an actual residence, they become homeless and then all of these safeguards are much harder to put in the place. But, Dr. Drew, I want to make the point and see -- the people are going after the judge. Everyone is blaming the judge. As Mark said, you`ve got to put the blame where the blame goes.
In this case, they whole act in place, this sexually violent predator act where you can keep this man in prison for the rest of his life as long as the mental health people that are watching him say he`s dangerous.
So, Dr. Drew, in this case, they said he`s safe. So my question turns to you. What in the world did they see in this man where they as mental health experience would say he`s safe?
COOMBS: We`re going to let him out. Once they say that, the judge has to let them out.
PINSKY: I`ll tell you why, and, Ann, I`ll let you comment, because he`s clearly safe in an institutional environment. If you can`t tell that somebody behaved differently outside that structured, chronic institutional setting, I don`t understand how you can say anything about how he does out there.
PINSKY: He could be going around the world and we don`t even know it.
HUTT: Dr. Drew, you would know I would behave a certain way here, and on the outside, all peruse.
PINSKY: Listen --
MILLER: I think the biggest question here is, don`t -- shouldn`t we have higher minimum sentences and mandatory sentences? He was on probation and they put him in a mental hospital. You know, somebody who rapes 40 women, why isn`t he put away for life without the chance of parole, without the chance of drawing --
EIGLARSH: He would be -- hold on. Hold on.
EIGLARSH: Now, they do. In 1994, they changed the law. So, now, anyone who commits the same offense, we wouldn`t have to worry about them. Three strikes, good-bye.
This is going back a couple decades.
PINSKY: I get it.
Ann, why can`t the judge jump in here and do something to protect the community? This is the theme. Ann, this is the theme I have to my show these days, is why can`t we protect the community against the rights of individuals? Why can`t we do that?
COULTER: No, you`re absolutely right. You read my mind. I this think we can blame the judge. Otherwise, there`s no point in having a judge overseeing what these doctors have assured us.
But, again, in this particular case, aside 38 rapes, we also have his prior history of being released -- oh yes, the doctor said he was safe, and we can release him now, and immediately he goes back to raping. I mean, it`s just madness the I blame the doctors and I blame the judge.
PINSKY: Hang on a second. Let me bring someone in here.
Wait, hold on, I want to bring Nichole Stone. She lives in the neighborhood that Hubbart is being to be released. And she joins us about by phone. I want to give the panel a chance to talk to Nicole.
But before we do, Nichole, just give us sort of the feeling on the ground there in that neighborhood.
NICHOLE STONE, AGAINST RAPIST MOVING INTO HER NEIGHBORHOOD (via telephone): Everybody`s really upset, really mad, and I mean, how do you become a doctor and make this guy cured?
PINSKY: Mark has a question. Hang on a second --
EIGLARSH: Nicole, I heard -- yes, Nicole, I heard -- this is very creative. I haven`t researched it yet. But there`s actually discussion in your community of building a daycare center right next to where he`s proposing to live, thereby eliminating his ability to live in that spot. Is that true?
STONE: Yes, actually the girls, they wanted to put in a daycare before, as it was, and now, they`re actually have more reason to put in a daycare, because he -- they`re putting him across the street from his exact M.O.
PINSKY: What do you mean?
STONE: He attacks women with children a lot of the times. They`re living across the street from a grandmother who takes care of her grandson all day by herself.
Who else? Loni, go ahead. Loni?
COOMBS: And, Dr. Drew, Nicole is absolutely right. He would look for houses where the garage door was opened in the morning. So, he assumed the man was at work, and that would have children`s toys, because he would assume the women who were parents, who are mothers would be more vulnerable, more willing to go along with what he said to protect their children.
So, Nicole is absolutely right.
COULTER: Can I say --
PINSKY: Go ahead. Please go ahead.
COULTER: The daycare center is clever, but all of this, it just drives me crazy. Everyone else is having to go out of his way to change his lifestyle, build a daycare center, taxpayers having to support the monitoring, having to pay for the weekly visits.
If someone has to bear the burden here -- again, I think it should be the guy who`s already been convicted of raping women 38 times.
PINSKY: I think we should leave it right there. I think that`s a great -- Jenny, hold it. Great place to stop.
Nichole, stay with us. I want to expose you to the behavior bureau, who will weigh in next on whether this guy should be released or whether he`s treatable or what we think this guy is all about, and how the health care professionals could have arrived at the conclusion that he should be released into that neighborhood.
And later, a kidnapper and a high-speed chase with police calls 911. In that call, he tells cops to back off or he will kill his hostage.
Don`t go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s not living in a cage. He`s going to be roaming around. That`s the problem, and that`s how rapists attacked. That`s how he attacked in the past.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s people talking around town about how they want to burn the house down, with him inside of it.
(END VIDEO CLIPS)
PINSKY: Welcome back.
My co-host is Jenny Hutt.
We`re discussing the pillowcase rapist who admitted to raping 38 women, but some way closer to I`ve heard numbers higher than that. He`s been locked up in the state mental hospital for these last 17 years and now he`s about to release.
Jenny, this is -- as you might expect, this is inflaming some passions on Twitter. Let me read a tweet to you. It is from, there it is Helen Wedekind. "Since he`s a repeat offender, how can they consider him cured? Are they nuts?"
That`s the question were asking.
So, let me bring the behavior bureau in, starting with Jennifer Keitt, life coach; Wendy O`Connor, psychotherapist; Jillian Barberie, social commentator; and Wendy Walsh, psychologist, author of "The 30-Day Love Detox".
And, guys, I`ve still got Nichole Stone with me, who I speak to in that last block. She lives in the neighborhood where Hubbart is thought to be potential released. We`ve heard that people are talking about burning the house down with him in it.
I wonder if you guys have any questions.
First of all, Nichole, are you there?
PINSKY: OK. Good. I`m wondering if the behavior bureau has any questions for Nichole.
HUTT: I have a question, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Jenny, go ahead.
HUTT: Nichole, has anyone addressed why he`s moving there with no family there? Has anyone asked him directly?
STONE: I don`t know, but we`ve all been asking the same question, because we -- to our understanding, they`re supposed to be placed in your town that you grew up in? He grew up in Pasadena, and his last residence was in the San Jose area, Santa Clara County. So --
PINSKY: Nichole, I want to thank you, but I live in Pasadena, and I don`t want him in Pasadena. I`m sorry about that. Thank you very much.
STONE: I don`t want him in (INAUDIBLE), either.
PINSKY: I appreciate that you guys don`t want him, either.
Who else has a question for Nichole?
All right. I`ll tell you what. Nichole, please keep us appraised of what`s going on there. I would advise you of one thing, though. I`m hearing that people are busting out windows in the house and threatening to burn it down with the guy in it. Please don`t take the law into your own hands. Don`t do that.
STONE: I`m not. You know, I actually -- when it comes to vandalism, I called the proper authorities and took care of it the right way. We have to play by the rules.
JILLIAN BARBERIE, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: But it definitely shows, Dr. Drew, the level of frustration on the part of the people. Regardless of what city it`s in, I think normal law-abiding citizens are going to feel the same way as Nichole and the rest of that community.
And the fact that his release is even up for debate is just maddening and it`s beyond frustrating. He should be behind bars. You have people behind bars, third strikers for pot offenses that have not, you know, harmed anyone physically. This guy is getting out?
PINSKY: Yes, right.
BARBERIE: I think the judge that made that order should have to live beside him with his wife or his daughter.
PINSKY: Here`s the deal. Wendy O`Connor, this guy has been sexually abusing women since high school. I guess in Pasadena, I`ve not heard about it. So be it.
Is it possible that he could be treated? Is that even are a possibility with the chronicity of his problem?
WENDY O`CONNOR, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Not a possibility. It`s frightening to think he is coming out. He`s like a tiger who will be waiting for his juicy steak.
This is frightening. But see, here`s the thing, if you have to be tracked with a monitor, probation officer and you have to check in. This guy has had an opportunity to get out, and he did not do well. So, unfortunately, it`s up to the mental health people, one of is that kind of says, OK, let`s stamp the papers, he gets to go out.
But I talk about the education of everybody`s awareness always needs to be up, no matter what.
BARBERIE: And she`d bring up a good point. But, you know, treated is not cured. I like -- who decides this is curable? Obviously he`s proven he`s not cured because he keeps offending.
BARBERIE: Wendy --
JENNIFER KEITT, LIFE COACH: Yes, I wonder -- my question is -- I`m absolutely offended by the way, being a woman that he`s being released. But we don`t have access to the professionals that have actually let him go. I would love for them to be on trial, so to speak, to find out what exactly did they do to cure him? What exactly did they say that would deem he`s ready to be released into the community?
Because we don`t have any way of knowing. We have to trust these guys with their lives, and we don`t even know who they are and they said that he was OK. I`m highly offended by that?
PINKSY: Hang on. I`m going to get to Wendy Walsh.
Because the fact is, Wendy --
WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, I got to talk here.
PINSKY: But let me just say that I -- I`ve been around psych hospitals where people are there for decades, and I would never make the case, I would never assume that although they`ve been stable for ten years in their chronically monitored institutional setting, I would never make the case that I had assurances they would be able to be OK on the outside.
In fact, if the history is there to tell us what the if ultimate is likely to be like.
WALSH: OK. I`m going to say something really politically incorrect here.
Are we trying to change every law in America and take our system away if you`re a repeat offender, you`re guaranteed life in prison and no chance of ever freedom? What we know about the human mind is that we don`t know. We can`t predict what is going to happen.
And I want people, instead of forming a lynch mob, to think what it will be like that man right now terrified to move in to that place going to --
BARBERIE: Good. Good. He should be terrified.
BARBERIE: Exactly, how did those women feel when their faces were stuffed in the pillow and he was raping them? I`m more concerned about their --
WALSH: Well, then let the system put him in prison. Our system does not allow that.
BARBERIE: The system let him out a few times. He repeated his offense. So, our system is broken.
PINSKY: Wendy, I`m going to say --
WALSH: But I don`t think -- well, I think we need to change the system, not this situation.
PINSKY: Well, I`ve got to say, Wendy, it`s Halloween. I was looking at my panel, and immediately I saw horns and pitchforks come out, so thank you for that image. All four of the women, I`m with you, Wendy, I saw an angry mob/
But I am reminded that mobs are not -- you`re right, mobs are not healthy, and we need to let the legal system function and we need to let the psychiatric systems function. I`m just saying, I`ve been a psychiatric hospital as a clinician for 20-plus years. We had lots of chronically, psychiatrically ill patients who seemed great in the institutional setting, but you open their chart and read about what happened when they`re on the outside, I would never dream of letting them back out, and these people were not serial rapists.
Guys, next, a kidnapper being chased by police, calls 911, hands the phone to his hostage, and you have got to hear this call.
And later, the picture-taking phenomenon known as the selfie, of course, these are people posting self-portrait, but they`re doing it from some inappropriate places, funerals.
Back in a moment.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: 911. Where`s the emergency?
KIDNAPPER: Yes, I`m being followed by the police with his lights on. I am a gentleman from Lakeland. I have kidnapped my ex-fiancee. If he continues to follow me, I will kill her.
911 OPERATOR: OK.
KIDNAPPER: That is your final warning.
911 OPERATOR: Sir?
KIDNAPPER: Do you hear me?
911 OPERATOR: Sir, where are you at?
KIDNAPPER: That was your final warning.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Where are you?
911 OPERATOR: I don`t know what officer you`re talking about, sir. Can you let me know where you are, so I can let the officer know.
KIDNAPPER: OK. We`re going South on I-95. If he continues to follow me, I will fire warning shots. The third shot will not be a warning.
Is that understood? If you don`t stop (EXPLETIVE DELETED) following me, get off my (EXPLETIVE DELETED) now!
(END AUDIO CLIP)
Jenny Hutt, my co-host, that`s chilling stuff.
Brett Lee Curtis kidnapped 26-year-old Elizabeth Hamilton just hour before she had been seeking a permanent restraining order. He took her and the police on an eight-hour chase. In the end, police punctured his tires. The woman, Hamilton, escaped unharmed. Curtis then killed himself.
Back with us: Mark Eiglarsh, Loni Coombs, Ann Coulter and Emily Miller.
Emily, I know you`re a gun enthusiast. How do you interpret this?
MILLER: Well, I`m not a gun enthusiast. I`m a Second Amendment enthusiast. There`s a big distinction.
I think in this case -- I do. I think in this case, this woman obviously had a stalker and the one thing we know, generally, law enforcement will tell you about stalkers showing them any attention encourages them. She had a restraining order which tends to just encourage them.
One thing she could have done to defend herself was to have a gun. I mean, if I had a stalker -- I do have a gun at home. If I had a stalker that came into my house, I would be able to defend myself. It`s an equalizer. Otherwise, she`s a complete victim to this man.
PINSKY: OK. Ann, Emily has a point. She is right that certain kinds of stalking, particularly resentful stalkers, what this guy seems to be, will get worse when you put down a restraining order.
COULTER: Yes, that`s absolutely true. They`re generally not worth the paper they`re written on. What you need to do to protect yourself from a man who -- 90 percent of males can kill with their bare hands 90 percent of women. The woman needs to get a gun and, you know, that`s why there is the expression God made man and women, and Colonel Colt made them equal. That`s the only way to protect yourself.
HUTT: Oh, come on.
COULTER: And remember, a restraining order can be taken out by a man against the woman he`s supposed to stalk.
HUTT: Hold on. So, we`re supposed to carry gun all day long, everywhere we go, at work, at the market, everywhere, in case there`s a man stalking --
COULTER: If you have a stalker boyfriend, yes.
MILLER: What are you going to do?
COULTER: Or take your chances but --
MILLER: Well, perhaps you`ve never been in these situations, but I think obviously the Second Amendment gives us all the right to choose if we want to. And if you are -- obviously there`s a long history between these two. She knew her life was in danger, she knew this was high risk. I`m surprised she didn`t do that.
But no one is forcing to get a gun. But if you know that your life is in danger, because your ex-boyfriend, ex-fiancee is trying to kill you enough that you got a restraining order, I sure hope you would think strongly about that to protect yourself and get a gun.
HUTT: I think there needs to be better remedies.
PINSKY: Well, Jenny, you`ve never had a stalker. I`m sympathetic to what Emily is saying. Mark, I`ve had stalkers. I`ve used legal remedies, and it`s worked.
But I can understand why people would arm up.
EIGLARSH: Yes, I agree there`s certainly instances where a gun is a practical approach to neutralize the threat. I also however don`t want women to think it`s either a gun or a restraining order.
EIGLARSH: Restraining orders did have a huge impact. I`ve sought them and defended them a lot of times. That means -- what it does is if the creep even comes around, just shows up, ordinarily you wouldn`t be able to arrest someone for that, about you when you have a restraining order, the cops would arrest the person right away and give you the protection you need right away.
MILLER: When someone is determined to kill, just like Ann said, it`s a piece of paper. Someone is determined to kill like this guy was, whether it was her or himself, it doesn`t matter what the paper says. It`s completely irrelevant and often encourages them because they get that attention.
COOMBS: We know that a piece of paper, the restraining order, can`t stop a bullet. We know that. But there are also people who just don`t feel comfortable arming themselves with guns to defend themselves, whether it`s because they have children in the home.
So, people have the right to choose it or not. People have the right not to choose it. I`ve been a victim of a stalker. I`ve counseled victims of stalkers. You can get self-defense courses. You can get your own army of people. Get a photograph of the person, get the restraining order like Mark said. It does work in some situations, and it gives you the authority and everyone around you on notice that this person can be picked up by the police if they see them around you.
Put the picture out there, say look to your neighbors, if this guy shows up, call the police, call me, let me know.
PINSKY: Ann, quickly, then I want to move this forward.
COULTER: Look, you can have a choice to get a gun or not, about if you are a female, the only way to protect yourself is with a gun. Studies have shown that a woman being attacked, if you try to run or defend yourself with your bare hands, you are more likely to end injured or dead. Only if you have a gun are your odds of escaping -- increased.
COOMBS: If you`re comfortable using that gun. Women aren`t comfortable --
PINSKY: Now, I want to show you -- the viewers to get more of this 911 call. At one point during the chase, this gentleman, as he calls himself, allowed his ex-girlfriend to speak to 911. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 911, where is your emergency?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have been kidnapped and we are being followed. He`s going to kill me if they keep following him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Are you in the car with him?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I`m in the back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s got a gun, a nine millimeter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re going to get hurt.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He says if you tried to stop him before then, I`m going to get hurt.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: We also learned in that call that he had a rifle. Now, Emily, let me flip it around a little bit. So, the judge is giving the girl a restraining order, but he is still allowed access to guns? Should maybe we restrict the people of the objects --
EMILY MILLER, SENIOR EDITOR OF OPINION, WASHINGTON TIMES: It is. It is illegal. So, if you are -- federal law already is that if you are -- have a restraining order against you that has gone through a court or if you`re any kind of charged -- it is illegal for you to get a gun. He`s probably like all criminals, they don`t care if it`s illegal. They get them anyway. Steals it. That`s how criminals get their gun.
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Can I make a point, though? This guy -- Drew?
EIGLARSH: This guy`s purpose that day, we learned, was not necessarily to kill her, but to kill himself. And apparently, according to the victim`s interview that I saw, he just wanted to spend time with her before he killed himself.
EIGLARSH: I don`t know that a gun or restraining order would have done anything to protect anyone until these circumstances.
MILLER: But she shouldn`t have to be in that circumstance, you know? And that`s what -- just because she didn`t get raped or murdered, should she have to sit in a car thinking she`s going to die and then watch a man shoot himself in the head in front of her? She shouldn`t have to be in that car.
PINSKY: Stop it right here. If we got an interview with her right there while she was in the back of the car, she thought she was going to be killed. Let`s be clear about that. So, this postmortem that she does where she`s reconsidering it all merely because he eventually did kill himself, nonsense I say to that, number one.
And number two, Emily has given us some very good reason to get those -- restraining orders is to limit access to guns by these people that can`t perpetrate, even to be perpetrated against themselves, they should not have access.
PINSKY: Well, OK. We`ll bring in the "Behavior Bureau" to look at the kidnapper`s mental state and his victim.
And later, people like to take pictures of themselves and post selfies all over the internet, but has this gone too far? We`re going to look at that after this.
VINNIE POLITAN, HLN ANCHOR: Coming up top of the hour on "HLN After Dark, another big day inside that Utah courtroom. We know it`s Halloween, but our bold question, a little scary, not about the murder, it`s about Dr. MacNeill, is the doctor evil? We`ll take a close look at his life, and our in-studio jury will render a verdict by the end of the program. That`s "HLN After Dark." Is the doctor evil?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 911, where`s the emergency?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re risking this woman`s life. We`re heading south on I-95. You got three officers ganging up on me right now. And I have enough ammunition to kill her and myself. Don`t (EXPLETIVE DELETED) play with me. Get off my (EXPLETIVE DELETED) now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sir, why don`t you just pull over so this can end peacefully?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s not going to happen. So back the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sir, why don`t you just pull over and --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I heard you the first time. It`s not going to happen. Maybe you didn`t hear me. Back them up or I start opening fire.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt, and our "Behavior Bureau," Jennifer Keitt, Wendy Walsh, Jillian Barberie, and Wendy O`Connor.
Bret Lee Curtis (ph) is the guy whom you just heard on that tape. He kidnapped his ex-girlfriend. When the police gave chase, that`s when he became threatening and agitated. She eventually escaped. He killed himself.
Wendy Walsh, after the breakup, he reportedly threatened her life and her family`s life. This is clearly a resentful stalker. Tell people a little bit about that.
WENDY WALSH, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGIST: OK. So, this is what I would call an absolutely extreme attachment injury. On some deep, unconscious level, Dr. Drew, he believes that attachment to her is his lifeline. He will die without her. And those feelings are visceral and they`re real to him. So, as a result, he`s going to do everything he can to try to get her close or his family.
But if he can`t have that, then he`s going to -- because he`s a guy, he will use anger and it will wrap in anger. With a woman it, would be more like depression. Men use substance abuse of violence when they have big attachment injuries. Women are depression and anxiety. So, I think he was thinking I`m going to spend my last moments with her. If I can`t have her, we`re both going to die.
PINSKY: Let`s sort of qualify about stalking in a second. Now, I`ve got four, five of you up there. When you were an adolescent, did you ever call somebody and hang up? Did you ever drive by their house? Show of hands. Show of hands people whoever did that --
PINSKY: Every one of you. Every one of you have been a stalker. I just want to make that point.
PINSKY: There`s an age in which that`s sort of normal, developmentally appropriate. Everyone has done that kind of thing, you know, so they again called or hung up or now there`s even internet stalking so you know you can check their Facebook page and what not. It`s very, very common, but it`s normative. Wendy O`Connor, when does it cross over and really become an issue?
WENDY O`CONNOR, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, obviously, first of all, it`s interesting that she is the ex-fiancee. So, something must have given her a heads-up to get out of that relationship. But when you see someone fixated on you, you know, swept away, they are cyber-stalking you, they`re isolating you, there`s a lot of control that goes into it, you know, I never thought about getting a gun, but I`ve got to tell you, after hearing your panel, I feel like packing a little bit.
It`s a little scary. But you know, I also think don`t get in the car. I`d rather be shot on the street than get on the car. Statistically, once you get in the car, you`re never coming back.
PINSKY: Jilianne, coercive control, coercive control relationships, they are nasty, and they can go bad, right?
JILLIAN BARBERIE, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, you know, I keep thinking that this is the best possible outcome for her. I can`t it`s what Wendy was saying, usually, this does not end up with a positive outcome. I mean, I`m sure she`s going to need help and therapy after this because of what she went through, thinking she was going to die. That`s absolutely horrific.
But you know, the other outcome could have been a lot worse. So, it`s fascinating to me. Maybe Wendy Walsh can answer this. Wendy, and I know Dr. Drew you disagree with this. Do you think that his intention was to have her watch him kill himself? Was there some --
WALSH: Yes. Yes. I think that -- remember, he`s projected on her, you`re the evil abandoning mommy that hurt me when I was an infant. So, you are going to see how much you`ve hurt me. You are going to watch my pain. You need to see my pain.
And I do want to say one thing that Wendy -- on something that Wendy O`Connor said that, you know what, the beginning of these relationships, these guys can seem so loving and so caregiving, because it`s not stalking, it`s not obsessive yet. They`re just filled with love. And women can confuse that kind of, you know, jealousy, maybe --
WALSH: With care and love.
PINSKY: The intensity. They confuse intensity -- but talking about that woman, CNN affiliate, WTSB, asked her, the kidnapped survivor, if she had advice for women trapped in controlling relationships. Let`s hear from her directly.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don`t give into fear, because they`re going to try and scare you. They`re going to try and get you to back down. Don`t back down. I guess, I let fear get in the way a little bit. But I`m lucky to be alive. I`m healing and I`m looking at it as this is just another step in the road and it was a bad one.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: No kidding. Jennifer, although I don`t totally agree with Wendy`s frame. I don`t disagree with the way she describes it, but I think this guy was such an agitated state. There`s no telling. And he had a gun. There`s no telling what he could have done.
JENNIFER KEITT, JENNIFERKEITT.COM: You`re absolutely correct. And you know, this scares me to the core, because I`ve got three daughters, 25, 23, 19 years old, and I`m really concerned, because I look at his picture, Dr. Drew. He looks like the grocery store boy. He looks like the people who pack my luggage.
How in the world are we supposed to know as women that these guys are going to turn into these kinds of stalkers. I`m interested to find out when in the relationship did she really kind of know?
PINSKY: Be careful with love addiction. Don`t confuse intensity for love. Jenny, take me home.
JENNY HUTT, ATTORNEY: Yes, but that`s the issue, Dr. Drew. I think so often with women, young women, middle-aged women, I think we do confuse intensity for love. And I think that emotion, all of a sudden, we`ll let someone in, potentially who`s not right because he makes us feel so good. And then, what are you supposed to do? Like, we expect people to act like human beings, not like monsters.
PINSKY: If you have a question for the "Behavior Bureau" or you`d like to make a comment about our conversation tonight, please tweet us @DrDrewHLN #behaviorbureau.
Up next, if you spend any time online, you know people love those selfies, but have they gone too far? Be right back.
PINSKY: I`m back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. We also got Wendy Walsh, Jennifer Keitt, Jillian Barberie, and Ann Coulter, and we are talking about selfies, people take them in strange places, inappropriate places like at funerals now. More on that in just a second, but people, not just regular folks, but celebrities get in hot water. For instance, Geraldo is an example. Check out this from twitter and his WABC radio program.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I had a drink, and then I was -- you know, I had taken that picture Saturday morning. And I was looking -- I was just going through, and like, you know, I`ve got to tweet this thing. I look pretty good for a 70-year-old, and maybe because I`m so old, people will cut me some slack. You know, they won`t take it too seriously. And I don`t know. I just pushed the trigger. And once you push the trigger --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s there for life.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s there for life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Well, people did respond. And a month after that was posted, his speech at university was canceled. Ann, does he -- do you -- you know Geraldo. Has he ever expressed regret about this? Does he see it differently now?
COULTER: Oh, come on. If you are a gorgeous hunk of man like Geraldo, you have to share that with the world, Dr. Drew.
BARBERIE: He looks great. I`m waiting for Dr. Drew`s selfie. I mean, I think he looks incredible, and I didn`t see the big issue with it at all.
HUTT: I think everybody takes selfies.
HUTT: Everybody takes selfies, Dr. Drew. Everybody -- even I think naked selfies. How many of you guys have taken a naked selfies? Be honest.
HUTT: Seriously? No one else on this panel has taken a naked selfie?
PINSKY: Jenny, you said no one else? No one else? You have, evidently.
HUTT: Yes, I have.
PINSKY: Is this out there in cyber-space? Can we find it right now?
HUTT: But it`s on my husband`s phone. And I have taken them just because I`m kind of curious to know what it looks like from other people`s perspective. It being all of it.
BARBERIE: Oh, Lord.
PINSKY: You guys are funny. Women are funny.
PINSKY: I want to show you guys a blog I found online at Tumblr. It`s called selfies at funerals. Pictures of mostly young people that taken before, during and after. Right. So, my question is, Wendy Walsh, what motivates that? Why did -- I don`t understand. It all seems very narcissistic to me like -- and not even narcissistic in the sense of being a personality disorder, but just a narcissistic expression. Look at me.
WALSH: Well, yes, it is look at me. It is I need my audience so I can perform for, but let`s think about what they`re performing from? Remember, funerals are sad places. Even if it`s your old great uncle Alex who you didn`t even care about, you`re in a room with a lot of sad people. You`re dealing with a lot of feelings that might be confusing to you.
So, regulating yourself by getting back to your pretty happy face and sending it out to your audience helps these young people in their narcissistic way using their audience regulate in some way and get --
PINSKY: Or Jennifer, is it just getting support? It`s a funny way of getting support we adults don`t understand.
KEITT: I don`t know. For me, selfies at funerals kind of violates the space between my spiritual grieving process, the sacredness of the moment, and really kind of interfering with that. The whole selfies thing for me, really, it`s overdone. I don`t want to see your boobs. I don`t want to see your breasts. I don`t want to see your butt. I don`t want to see your biceps. I don`t want to see it. I mean, if I can do it with you face-to-face, I just don`t want to see it.
PINSKY: Hold it right there. More with the "Behavior Bureau." We`ll be right back.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. We got Wendy Walsh, Jennifer Keitt, Jillian Barberie, and Ann Coulter.
I`m going to read a quick tweet for you, guys. We`ve been talking about selfies and why people take them in inappropriate places. This is from Robin@72. "Taking selfies at a funeral shows a lack of respect for the departed." -- what Jennifer was saying. "Classic narcissistic behavior, and it`d be tacky."
We also found some other disturbing stuff online. You know, we found that people were actually taking pictures of open caskets at funerals and posting those. I mean, talk about --
BARBERIE: I saw one of those, Dr. Drew, but you know, there was a boy on there saying I hope my grand would approve of this pic. And he was making a face that she kind of use to make, and it was sort of charming in its own little way, and then there was a girl who said, I`m having the best hair day ever, too bad I have to go to a funeral.
OK. That seems a little disrespectful. But I have to defend the boy. It depends on -- you know, we`re just assuming the deceased wouldn`t have a sense of humor about it or they -- you know, there`s some of the tweets that were out there, the selfies that were actually very charming and sweet, and they were meant with love. I don`t think we should categorize them all as being bad.
PINSKY: I think Wendy Walsh was sort of agreeing with you there. Is that what I`m seeing on your face, Wendy? That maybe --
WALSH: Yes. I think that this is a digital age. We`ve got to catch up. This is the digital age. People are extroverts. They use their iPhone to self-regulate, to connect with their friends, audience, what have you? This is how people express. This is how it`s done.
COULTER: That`s why every time I`m about to feel sorry for young people for not being able to get a job --
COULTER: I see a story like this and say, no, I don`t care.
COULTER: They don`t deserve it.
PINSKY: There you go.
KEITT: I would just hope -- if we`re going to do it at funerals, we could at least respect the whole tradition and at least ask if it`s OK with the other folks that are there that are grieving as well. It`s just a sensibility that kind of messes with me, I guess.
PINSKY: Thank you, guys. "Last Call" is next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just want to send a message to the parents of kids that are really overweight. I think it`s really irresponsible of parents to sort of send them out looking for free candy just because all the other kids are doing it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Time for the "Last Call." Happy Halloween, everybody. Now, that`s a woman whom I think my kids would avoid when they were in their younger years. So, unless, you end up at her house in Fargo, North Dakota, where she`s handing out candy to thin kids and a note to kids that she thinks are overweight, it asked parents to rush (ph) on candy and stop eating unhealthy habits. Got to go, guys. "HLN After Dark" begins right now.