Return to Transcripts main page
Cliff Bride Going to Jail; Drunk Teen Kills 4, Gets Probation
Aired December 12, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, the newlywed bride who pushed her groom off a cliff. She`s going to jail. Why she is now admitting to murdering her husband.
Plus, the rich kid who killed four people and got away with it. Could his parents lose everything? The behavior bureau is back for more.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want a pound of flesh.
PINSKY (on camera): Yes, I just --
And an update on Amanda Bynes, and her little dog, too.
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening.
My co-host is attorney, Sirius XM Radio host, Jenny Hutt.
And coming up, we`ve got Amanda Bynes -- we`ll show you pictures of her transformation since her arrest, much better. Way back in May and now, we`ve got updated photos.
But, first, the newlywed who shoved her husband off a cliff is going to jail.
Jordan Graham struck a deal with prosecutors and pleaded guilty to second-degree murder. In exchange, the other charges against her, including first-degree murder, were dropped.
Jenny, does this make sense to you?
JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: Oh, it makes complete sense to me, Dr. Drew. I think she was going to be found guilty of first-degree murder.
PINSKY: This is her way out?
HUTT: Yes, the whole situation was quite murky, quite strange. And she pushed him off a cliff.
PINSKY: And we have some really weird information. Let`s take a look at how this all got started.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One week after this beaming couple`s wedding, a chilling scene.
PINSKY: She pushed her new groom over a cliff.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The bride then told multiple lies.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I received text messages from Jordan and, as the days continued, her stories changed. First story was that she was not aware of who Cody was with. At a later time, the story was that she was there when he left. And then he had left with some friends from Seattle.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She saw him leave, never saw him again.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Then suddenly, she goes out and single-handedly, amazingly finds his body.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Very steep area, very treacherous.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right then, I felt like she had something to do with Cody not being with us any longer.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Graham later admitting to police, soon after they went for a hike at Glacier National Park, they argued. Graham says her husband grabbed her arm. She then pushed his back, which sent him flying face first off the edge of this cliff.
PINSKY: CNN`s Kyung Lah is following the trial in Montana. She joins us on the phone.
Now, Kyung, the defense really didn`t present much of a case, did they?
KYUNG LAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): They certainly didn`t take as long I certainly asked them about it. They said they felt pretty good about their case. When they got this deal, they fetal they had to present it to Jordan Graham, the defendant. She`s the one who decided, on her own, that she wanted to take this plea deal -- in large part, Drew, because she wanted to get rid of that first-degree murder charge. Now with the second-degree murder charge, there`s a little more sentencing flexibility. That`s what they`re going to focus on.
Kyung, thank you.
Joining us to discuss: Anahita Sedaghatfar, defense attorney, Jason Ellis, host of "The Jason Ellis Show" on Sirius XM Radio, Loni Coombs, former prosecutor, author of "You`re Perfect: and Other Lies Parents Tell", and new to our show, comedian Johnny Loquasto, I beg your pardon.
So, there`s no evidence. There`s little evidence. Anyway, no witnesses, mostly circumstantial.
Loni, why take a plea deal?
LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: I think the premeditation that was going to go with first degree murder was looking really strong. Look, the prosecution has this whole theory that there was a piece of cloth found near the body, which looked like a blindfold. They just heard these witnesses saying, look, he kept telling us that day that his bride said he had a surprise for him so he canceled all his plans to go with her on that hike that day.
He didn`t have his wedding on. Why was his wedding ring on? It shows all these little pieces that could be argued that she actually did plan this ahead of time rather than, as she said, it was just a sudden, spur of the moment thing. We know all about the lies afterwards. So, we know she`s very cunning and she can plan things. It was a matter of, did she do it ahead of time? It looked like the jury was going that way.
Believe me, she thought the jury was going that way.
COOMBS: Or she would never have taken this deal.
PINSKY: Anahita, yes?
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, ATTORNEY: No, I don`t necessarily agree with Loni, because here`s the thing -- I don`t think either side was fully confident in their case here because the prosecution has to be offering the plea agreement, right? So, I think the prosecution wasn`t convinced that they were going to be able to make out a premeditated murder, first-degree murder case. And I also think the defense was pretty sure they weren`t going to get an acquittal.
So, they kind of met in the middle. I think this was actually a pretty good deal for the defense. What they were able to do here is take away the possibility of a mandatory life sentence.
COOMBS: That`s right.
SEDAGHATFAR: Which is what would have come with a first-degree murder conviction.
And, you know, under the circumstances, Dr. Drew, when your client just blabs her mouth and starts talking to the police, it`s something defense attorneys hate. She basically lost her credibility with all the lies. So, once you`ve lost your credibility, you really -- it`s really, really hard to make a defense case.
PINSKY: Speaking of credibility, I want to go to Jason Ellis. I`m looking at his face, I`m wondering if he`s thinking of something else.
JASON ELLIS, RADIO HOST: I don`t -- if I push my -- my girlfriend is annoying sometimes. If I push her off a cliff and I didn`t try to murder her, I would immediately go down there to see if she was dead or not.
It`s over. She`s definitely is a murdering person. I reckon a better idea would be to say maybe a Sasquatch pushed him off. It`s the worst -- I don`t understand why everyone -- I don`t think we should let her off.
You don`t get to plead second. You`re a murderer. Go to jail, murderer. That`s the end of it.
PINSKY: Johnny, do you agree? Hold on.
JOHNNY LOQUASTO, COMEDIAN: Yes, it`s an open and shut case. I mean, it doesn`t take Scooby Doo and the mystery machine to figure this one out. Bottom line, you look at all the facts, the shoes were found away from the shoe, that cloth was found by his head, he fell face first. So, it wasn`t an accidental push. Then, lacerations on his leg.
Plus, let`s not forget the fact that she didn`t report him missing right away.
LOQUASTO: I`ve never been married, thank God. But I`m pretty sure on a honeymoon --
ELLIS: It`s terrible. No, it`s terrible. Run.
LOQUASTO: But I`m pretty sure on a honeymoon, you don`t pencil in alone time.
PINSKY: Yes, Jason, you had a whole heritage with people of sort of, we might call, scurrilous behavior. You know what I`m saying? I`m just saying.
Does this make sense to you that a woman that he sort of was enraptured with could have had these kinds of horrible, horrible desire to kill him?
ELLIS: Yes. All women want to kill us.
ELLIS: That`s why I go to the gym all the time.
HUTT: Stop it.
ELLIS: You have to move to the side in case they push you.
SEDAGHATFAR: Well, Dr. Drew, here`s the thing. You know, just to correct your other panelists, she is going to go to jail.
COOMBS: She did go to jail. She`s in jail right now, all the way.
SEDAGHATFAR: Right, but on sentencing, her sentencing -- yes, the judge hasn`t sentenced her yet. Under second degree, she still can get one year or up to life in prison. But I don`t think it`s likely that the judge will give her life. She`s going to obviously get some jail time. But the judge will consider the facts that she had no criminal history, she`s still young. There is a possibility of rehabilitation here.
ELLIS: He pushed her off a cliff.
PINSKY: Well, listen, we`re going to soon report on a kid that killed four people. But, Anahita, I want to go back to Jason`s comment. You seem to agree with him a little bit there. I see you smile.
What`s going on in your head?
SEDAGHATFAR: Which comment? Which part?
LOQUASTO: That women want to kill us. That one.
ELLIS: No, no, no.
SEDAGHATFAR: No, I don`t think that`s true. Again, in this particular case, clearly, I think the facts are obvious. She didn`t want to be married. She has admitted she didn`t want to be married. The issue really here was going to be prenup --
ELLIS: Get a divorce.
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes, get a divorce. But she had some defenses here, Dr. Drew. I think she could have argued self-defense.
ELLIS: What? What?
SEDAGHATFAR: If it weren`t for her lies, she could have argued self- defense.
ELLIS: With self-defense --
PINSKY: Jenny, finish up here.
SEDAGHATFAR: -- want to kill men either, Dr. Drew.
HUTT: Dr. Drew, I don`t think all women want to kill men.
PINSKY: Thank you.
HUTT: In that video, you were just playing, Dr. Drew, the passion between those two, yes, you couldn`t see it was going to end this way.
LOQUASTO: Better to be a run away bride than a cliff bride. That`s the way I look at it.
PINSKY: Loni, last words.
COOMBS: You know, I think this is a great deal for her. I think she got lucky that the prosecution allowed her to have this deal and the plea just before it went to the jury. I think they would have come back with first-degree murder.
PINSKY: So, I think we`re taken away from this, though, that men, we need to keep working out, right?
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes, that`s true.
PINSKY: Not for the reasons that you had thought before, though.
SEDAGHATFAR: Working out is good, Dr. Drew.
ELLIS: Especially if you`re annoying. You really got to work out.
PINSKY: Johnny is a physical therapist. He was working on my shoulder right before the cameras heated up.
LOQUASTO: I`m not done yet.
PINSKY: I know. I`m going to see you afterwards.
Thank you, panel.
Next up, this case is getting everybody upset. I was just on Anderson Cooper a few minutes ago. The rich kid who got probation instead of jail time, not just probation but treatment in a very cushy environment. There`s thoughts that parents might have other consequences. We`ll talk about that.
And later, we will have an update on Amanda Bynes and what she has been up to since leaving treatment center just last week.
Be right back.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny, and our panel, Anahita Sedaghatfar, Jason Ellis, Loni Coombs and Johnny Loquasto.
Affluence, everybody. That is the so-called diagnosis. By the way, let`s be really clear -- you can`t make up a diagnosis. You can make up a syndrome. So, these guys have been say, well, maybe affluenza is a syndrome.
It`s given to 16-year-old Ethan Couch who drove drunk and killed four people. It`s also why he was sentenced to 10 years probation instead of 20 years in prison. And we have some new developments in the case. But, first, I want you to look at this tape. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)
OPERATOR: Sir, how many people are injured, do you know?
CALLER: Ah, one. Two. Three. Multiple.
CALLER: I don`t even know how many.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A chain reaction crash that killed four people and severely hurt two others. Ethan Couch`s attorneys argue he is the product of what`s been called affluenza.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Have you ever heard of affluenza as a defense?
PINSKY: No. It`s disgusting. It`s disgusting. There`s no such term.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To let him off in such a manner. It`s so repugnant. It`s shameful. The law profession as a whole should collectively throw up in a bucket.
(END VIDEO CLIPS)
PINSKY: Jason, I`m going to give you a chance at this at first. Go ahead.
ELLIS: You know, because I have this thing tethered to my head I`m expected to say something silly.
But my little brother killed somebody in a drunk driving accident and I loved my little brother. He actually passed away. But when he did it, whatever the judge says he has to do is what he has to do, because you got -- you got the steering wheel in your hands. It`s your responsibility.
I don`t care how much money anyone`s got or how old you are. You killed four people. You need to pay the price. That`s the end of it.
PINSKY: Yes. I want to dig into that a little bit.
You know, don`t use explanation or an understanding of how something ended, you know, how you turned out the way you did as a justification for it. You`re not responsible for your condition. You have it, but you`re responsible for your recovery from that condition. And to the extent that you don`t do that and then you harm somebody else, it`s on you.
Do you agree with that?
ELLIS: Completely. And you`re aggravating the rest of us. We all don`t have that money. You`re saying just because you`re super rich, you`re OK. If I accidentally kill somebody, I have to go to jail. But you don`t because your dad`s rich?
You`re making everything worse. Just go do the time, dude. It`s over.
PINSKY: Yes. And, Loni, this kid apparently was running away from the scene. They found him a quarter mile from the scene saying, I`ll get you out of this I`m a Couch. Basically.
PINSKY: And guess what? He got out of it.
COOMBS: That`s exactly right.
PINSKY: He`s at a rehab center in Newport.
COOMBS: That`s exactly right. Dr. Drew, I have to tell you, as -- having been a member of the criminal justice system for 18 years, I hang my head in shame today. And I`m dead serious about this. I wrote a whole book about these kids who are being raised by these coddling, spoiling parents. And I said in the book, if you won`t teach them consequences, then when they get to the criminal justice system, as more and more of them are, we will come down as a hammer and show them what consequence and punishment is, in real life.
And guess what? This judge, rather than doing what she should have done as her job and punish this kid for what he did and held him liable for what he did, she continues to coddle him.
COOMBS: Just like his parents did. And it`s the worst -- the more he did in his past and got away with it, she said that just shows why he needs to get away with it longer.
I mean, she turned everything on its head. It`s like a kangaroo court in that courtroom. I do not understand what that judge was thinking. But think of the precedence it sets.
COOMBS: Think of what everyone is going to be saying in the future. Well, you know what? I had bad parents. If you let everybody out who has bad parents, just open the doors of all the prisons and let everybody walk out.
COOMBS: Because everyone had bad parents.
PINSKY: One hundred percent, that`s exactly right. That`s the explanation. It`s not the justification.
PINSKY: Johnny, you were having a reaction.
LOQUASTO: Oh, yes. Before I waste my breath on this brat and his parents, I want to pay respect and condolences to the four victims and their families, Brianna Mitchell, Hollie and Shelby Boyles and Brian Jennings who was a youth pastor.
The problem with society, no one wants to take accountability anymore. Every one of us remembers when we were 15 years old. By the time you`re 15, I don`t care how rich you are, you knew right from wrong. That kid drank illegally, got behind a truck illegally, and then killed four people and severely injured --
PINSKY: And tried to run away.
LOQUASTO: Yes, absolutely. And it`s amazing to me that -- this affluenza, what is --
PINSKY: There`s no affluenza. I`m going to make Loni-fluenza. I`m in a little trouble. I`m going to go run out the highway right now and got Loni-fluenza.
COOMBS: That`s right. It`s made up.
PINSKY: It`s completely made up. Yes, it is the case that -- it is the case that excessive, you know, not setting consequences, as you said, Loni, having too much privilege has a negative effect on kid. Yes, it is an explanation not a defense.
So, what we`re saying here is the real problem is the defense attorneys. Anahita, what do you say to that? Defense attorneys, that`s we`re laying the blame right now.
SEDAGHATFAR: That`s not true, Dr. Drew. That is not problem.
That is not the problem. Let me say me, as a defense attorney, I am totally appalled by this. Affluenza purported defense. Again, it`s not a legal defense, as you just said.
PINSKY: It`s not anything. It`s made up.
SEDAGHATFAR: It`s nothing. It sounds like something that should be covered by Obamacare. That`s how absurd it is. OK, Dr. Drew, I said it.
ELLIS: I bought myself a Porsche. Can I ask for Jenny`s phone number?
PINSKY: Yes. Go ahead. Go have it. You`ve got Jenny-fluenza. Porsche-fluenza. I don`t know. Go ahead.
SEDAGHATFAR: Dr. Drew, let me just say my issue right here, is I don`t like to criticize judges, because I actually know how tough their jobs are and I like the fact -- I appreciate the fact that judges do have discretion, that they don`t act like robots when they`re making their decisions. But in this case, this sentence was so far out of what is normal that I really think this judge should be looked into. Someone should see if there`s some impropriety. I`m just speculating.
PINSKY: Hold on. Jenny, you`ve got some data on this judge, do you not?
HUTT: I do.
PINSKY: In fact, she was well-thought of, to my understanding. She`s actually some who has received a number of accolades and people really think she`s a good judge. No?
HUTT: Well, first of all, I don`t think that`s the case anymore. But she does have a little bit of precarious history, Dr. Drew, because a while back, there was a 16-year-old boy lured an elderly man to the house under the pretense that he was ordering a pizza from this guy. The guy was a delivery guy. The boy laid in wait across the street in a park.
When the elderly man got there, he beat him up, he robbed him. When the man wouldn`t give his money away, he hit him with an aluminum baseball bat. The guy ultimately died.
This kid was a treated as a juvenile because the judge sided with the attorneys and said he needed counseling, he needed therapy, he didn`t have an easy enough upbringing, blah, blah, blah. So, she tends to err on the side of these younger defendants. I blame her more than the lawyer.
PINSKY: And we did try to reach -- just so you`re clear, she cited, obviously, judicial privilege and whatnot. We got no comment from her.
Johnny, you -- first, I want to put up a tweet to interrupt this conversation, if I could, from Denise Ann. Throwing it up there.
"Ellis should be your co-host. True chemistry with Ellis mate."
Thanks there, Jason.
ELLIS: Me and Drew have a special chemistry off-camera as well, but we`re not going to discuss that right now.
LOQUASTO: I`ve seen it.
PINSKY: Johnny, your comment?
LOQUASTO: This kid has gone from one fantasy life to another, because he was living that life and now at the rehab center at Newport Beach. And as a physical therapist, I used to work in Newport Beach, I would treat patients from that rehab center and it`s right on the ocean. You don`t live a real life.
So, this kid has no idea what life is.
LOQUASTO: And 450 grand a year, Jason could buy three Porsches.
PINSKY: And, Jason, imagine you`re resistant and you sort of -- you don`t want treatment. How long -- is any amount of time in a place like that going to change you?
PINSKY: Right. Thank you.
SEDAGHATFAR: Well, Dr. Drew --
ELLIS: See how we work together?
PINSKY: Yes. We`re a good team.
SEDAGHATFAR: I agree that he needs to get treatment. He needs to get help. But at the same time, he also should also be punished for what he did.
PINSKY: Yes, of course.
SEDAGHATFAR: Four people died here!
PINSKY: Of course. I`m all for treatment. We got it. We`re blaming the defense attorneys, Anahita. Nice try.
SEDAGHATFAR: Stop blaming us, stop it!
COOMBS: It`s the judge`s decision. The judge makes the decision at the end.
SEDAGHATFAR: The defense attorneys I think did a great job.
PINSKY: How did they allow nonsense science to show up in the court? Don`t you have any standards for that?
PINSKY: My understanding, I heard Jeffrey Toobin talking about this on CNN. Apparently you do. They were not applied to this case. I`ve got to go.
Reminder, you can find us on Instagram @DrDrewHLN and see pics like that, I`m getting physical therapy from Johnny. See that right tonight. You can see our famous multitasking picture as well, which has made the rounds today.
HUTT: That picture makes me uncomfortable.
PINSKY: Next up, you will hear from a man who`s wife and daughter were killed by this teenage drunk driver.
And later, update on Amanda Bynes and a picture of how much she has changed.
Be back in a moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: He has prior experiences with alcohol and the law.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He woke up when he was 15 years old with a naked girl in his car, completely drunk. What she decided to do was take him away from his family for six months, sends him to a $450,000 a year treatment facility that daddy`s paying for.
DR. G. DICK MILLER, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: They don`t get Xboxes. They don`t have computers. They don`t have the freedom to go where they want to go.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Jenny Hutt, and bringing in a behavior bureau with Jillian Barberie, social commentator, Jennifer Keitt, radio host and life coach, Judy Ho, clinical psychologist, and Wendy Walsh, psychologist and author of "The 30-Day Love Detox".
And a reminder, if you would like to join the conversation, tweet us right now @DrDrewHLN, #BehaviorBureau. Particularly when you Jason Ellis is on the screen, if you mention, it seems to get to air.
PINSKY: So, let me get to this horrible. You know, again, we use humor to kind of let -- to make this palatable.
Go to you, Wendy. What do you say? Sick or sad?
WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: I think this is sad. And I`m going to say something that`s a little politically incorrect today, but there`s a reason why we have a different set of laws, consequences for juveniles. There is a belief system that a developing brain can be rehabilitated. And that in some ways children, you know, haven`t reached the kind of reasoning ability --
PINSKY: Wendy, I`m going to interrupt. I want to interrupt. And --
WALSH: And I understand why the judge made this. It`s tragic.
PINSKY: Hold on. I do, too. I understand the thinking that led to this judgment. But I want to take what you`re saying, which is, in fact, a consideration of adolescent court that, in fact, is a charge of theirs.
My question -- I`m going to go around the horn here to everybody else. Starting with Judy.
Is this kid going to respond to this treatment? Is it worth it to give hum a year of treatment?
JUDY HO, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I don`t think so, Dr. Drew, especially this type of treatment facility, where really, he is being pampered just like he was at home. Just not by his family anymore.
PINSKY: All right. Let`s so hold on. OK, Jennifer, what do you say?
JENNIFER KEITT, LIFE COACH: I don`t think it`s going to help either. I think that he is being taught again one more time that you can just get out of anything that happens that comes your way.
JILLIAN BARBERIE, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Gee, what are the odds? Of course, I`m going to disagree with Wendy. He needs some hard punishment and has to fit the crime.
He killed four people. It`s a joke what`s happening. My parents call me and said, what is this affluenza? Is that a flu going on down there? No, it`s a defense.
PINSKY: It`s a nothing. It`s a nothing.
Listen, you don`t get to make up diagnoses.
But, Wendy, let`s at least -- you and I agree on this tonight. You don`t get to make up your own diagnostic categories, right? You agree with me on that at least?
WALSH: Absolutely. You can`t just make up something that doesn`t exist.
PINSKY: You cannot make up diagnoses. And if you don`t have a diagnosis that`s not based on -- I don`t want to get into how we build diagnostic structures, but you don`t have a treatment until you have a diagnosis. The only way we know what the treatment should be is when you have a good diagnostic category. The only way to know the treatment to work is when they`re applied to specific diagnoses.
Not to syndromes. You don`t get to make up a diagnosis. Affluenza does not exist anywhere in literature for actual psychiatric diagnosis or diagnostic manuals. What`s that, Wendy?
WALSH: No, you didn`t let me answer the question. Do I think this will help him?
WALSH: Do I think this will help him. OK, if the choice is -- this is not a serial killer who has been maiming small animals and then gone on a rampage and was an ax murderer to 20 people. This was a guy who spent 16 years without boundaries, consequences and has a lack of moral compass.
Are we going to send him into the criminal system?
BARBERIE: Yes, yes.
WALSH: And let other criminals train him on how to become a better criminal? Or are we going to try to rehabilitate him?
BARBERIE: Wendy, you just said how to become a better criminal. Now, first, you`re saying that he has this affluent lifestyle. So, he`s not a criminal is what you`re saying. And I think to the families --
WALSH: I didn`t say that. I said he did criminal behavior. What will be the consequence --
BARBERIE: Let`s treat him like a criminal then. What do you say to those families? He may not be an ax murderer, but those families -- their children, their parents, their loved ones are still dead.
PINSKY: But, Jillian, what she`s saying is he`s not in an untreatable category. She`s describing psychopathy, which is really not really treatable.
But bring up that man. I want to show the footage, if you guys don`t mind going back to that. Show you this tape of the man whose wife and daughter were, in fact, killed by this kid. Can you show that to me?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When the verdict came out, my immediate reaction is I`m back to week one.
Two daughters and, just like you would hope, that someone would do for my family, my daughters as well and ultimately they gave of themselves. We`re proud of them for being the Good Samaritans that they were.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Jennifer Keitt, your reaction.
KEITT: Why does it have to be either/or? Why can`t he be punished, have a consequence for the value of life --
PINSKY: I totally agree.
KEITT: -- and be rehabilitated at the same time? You cannot just take four lives and say, to hell with them. Excuse my language. I`m sorry, that is not right.
BARBERIE: That`s not just.
That judge --
HUTT: By the way --
BARBERIE: That judge just murdered that man`s family again.
PINSKY: That`s the way he feels. That`s the way he feels.
Jenny, by the way --
HUTT: Dr. Drew, I just want to say, by the way, it`s not just that killed four people, he also severely injured others.
HUTT: So, this was a lot of carnage.
PINSKY: There are states have treatment program witness the penitentiary system.
HO: That`s right.
PINSKY: They work beautifully. They need to be sustained for three to five years and have prison guards on them, motivating them over a long period of time. That`s when they get better.
Judy, you`re saying yes?
HO: Absolutely, Dr. Drew. There`s tons of programs like this have been shown to work for people of all ages, even people who are juveniles. And where do we draw the line?
So, he`s a teenager. What does that mean? Only a year or two before he becomes 18. So, what do we say about that moral development and what are the chances of him actually rehabilitating?
I think it`s very small, working on statistics.
PINSKY: Especially if he`s unmotivated. You have to have such intense motivation.
WALSH: Well, this might create a little bit of motivation, don`t you think?
PINSKY: But, no, Wendy, I don`t. Unfortunately I`ve been involved in a lot of cases like this. It`s when they`re in prison.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s right.
PINSKY: When they`re having severe consequences that they seem to find the motivation.
BARBERIE: He`s going to a country club. I mean, honestly, I want to go and spa there.
PINSKY: I do, too, as a matter of fact. Well, Johnny, our physical therapist over there apparently.
PINSKY: Now, I want to show you a debate with a therapist who popularized a term that she invented. It`s where this affluenza thing came from. She invented a syndrome called affluenza. Not a diagnosis. A syndrome. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Dynamic issue that`s not a diagnostic construct. Again, for every --
PINSKY: Is it in the DSM 5? I`m sorry, is it in the DSM 5?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: People are dynamic. You know, it doesn`t all have to be in the DSM 3, or 4, or 5 or whatever we`re up to now.
PINSKY: That`s a very dangerous thing to say.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Very dangerous, because she`s saying, hey, I just decided we`re going to make up diagnoses. I`m going to step outside of the entire field of medicine and come up with my own constructs. Do you know how dangerous that is? That should be -- I doubt -- I don`t know if she has a license. But if she did, it would be encumbered for that kind of stuff. Judy, don`t you agree?
HO: She doesn`t even know which edition of the DSM we`re on right now. She was like DSM 3, 4, or 5, whichever along we`re up to like that just shows how removed she is from where everybody else is practicing.
PINSKY: Wendy, are you with us on this or are you still --
WALSH: Well, yes. You know, I want to remind everybody that sex addiction is also not in the DSM.
PINSKY: It is not. It`s a construct.
WALSH: And a lot of people claim that they have a sex addiction.
PINSKY: That`s a great point. I was thinking about that. Love addiction, sex addiction, they are constructs to help people understand their behavior and think of some things that they might -- help them understand what`s going on inside. It`s not a diagnosis. It`s not. You`re not going to use it as a diagnostic category.
But the diagnosis would be some sort of axis I mood disturbance, some sort of axis II issue associated with trauma, right, ladies? Yes, Wendy? That would be the diagnosis. Not love addiction, not sex addiction. That`s to help people understand it. Jillian, you`re the sort of nonclinical person on the panel. You understand what we`re talking about?
BARBERIE: You guys --
BARBERIE: You lost me at A-1, 9-1, I don`t know.
BARBERIE: Wendy something, because I really -- and this is where her and I differ about this. And I know that a child -- your brain is developing, but when you don`t have any consequences for your actions, getting wasted. When I was 15, I knew if I was wasted and I got behind the wheel I could possibly kill somebody, so perhaps, I shouldn`t do it.
Now, if I did it and I killed that family and I don`t really -- I`m rich. My parents send me to this rehab. I could care less about going to rehab, but it looks like fun, going horseback riding. To me, it just sets a very scary precedence to other kids going, oh, wow, there are no consequences, if you`re rich. If you`re rich.
WALSH: I want to be clear about what the treatment facility is. It involves absolutely no electronics and certainly no horseback riding.
BARBERIE: Oh, my God!
WALSH: And more importantly, more importantly --
BARBERIE: He should have no rights.
WALSH: You`re not listening to me. No contact allowed with his parents.
BARBERIE: I don`t think he`s the kind of guy that scares to talk about to his parents. I mean, he`s getting wasted. His parents, obviously, are very wealthy. He seems like the kind of kid that`s extremely spoiled. He needs to be -- it needs to be tough love from his parents and this is not going to be it.
PINSKY: I will show a quick Twitter before we go out to break. It`s from Ryan. He says, "While not popular, I agree with Wendy`s comment. Horribly tragic, but mix him with true hardened criminals, no." This is what Mark Geragos was saying on Anderson Cooper last night, too, which is he would be severely damaged as a result of that.
WALSH: And I do want to say, you know, I do believe in victims` rights, but I also believe that revenge and retribution does not ease grieving. These people are not coming back. And the root to, you know, helping them through the process is about helping them understand that life is terribly tragic and terribly imperfect.
PINSKY: And there is such a thing as justice, which is separate from this kid`s condition, which is separate from the grieving. That justice itself seems to be in trouble in this case. I think we`re ultimately saying.
BARBERIE: There`s no justice -- those families.
PINSKY: Next up, update on Amanda Bynes, perhaps, a new career for her in fashion. We will talk about that. There she is.
And later, perhaps, you`ve seen this guy. You`ve heard the stories. A lot of people say what happened there was a fake. This was in South Africa during the Nelson Mandela ceremonies, but you got to hear what he`s got to say. We`re back with that discussion after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANDA BYNES, ACTRESS: I`m very lucky. I have a great family and I just have my eye on the prize, which for me is a long career. And I just - - I don`t want to blow what I worked so hard to, you know, to achieve.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. And before we get on to Amanda Bynes, I want to read you tweet about our last story, Jenny. It`s from April Bowen (ph). She says "if affluenza exists, then there`s a ghetto-enza or a poor-enza at the other end of the spectrum." People seem to be really confused about this.
Listen, I`m not saying there is no such thing as the phenomenon described by the woman who coined the term affluenza. It`s a cute name for a syndrome that I believe exists that`s not a diagnosis.
JENNY HUTT, ATTORNEY: Right.
PINSKY: It`s not a diagnosis. And Wendy very appropriately brought up the issue of, say, love or sex addiction, which are constructs to help people understand what`s going on inside them. They are not diagnoses. They shouldn`t be -- I don`t think they should be discussed in a court of law as a diagnostic construct for understanding the case in question. Do you agree?
HUTT: Yes. I get what you`re saying, but there are contributing factors. That`s all. There can be those.
PINSKY: What do you mean?
HUTT: I`m saying like that the affluenza syndrome could contribute.
PINSKY: It helps us understand how it did end up to be like this.
PINSKY: It`s not a justification or a defense.
PINSKY: Bring back Wendy, Judy, Jillian, and Jason. Amanda Bynes, that was interview from 2007. Six years later, she had some really problematic behavior. I think you remember some of this stuff, the blue hair and the lighting fires and whatnot. It ended up in a conservatorship and a lengthy psychiatric hospitalization. You remember all this? There it is.
HUTT: Oh yes, of course.
PINSKY: Yes. OK. Now, Jillian, you have a mutual friend who, I guess, allowed you to speak to Amanda. Can you tell us about that? Is that right? Jillian, can you hear me?
BARBERIE: Are you talking to me, Dr. --
PINSKY: I was.
BARBERIE: I have no sound right now. I need the sign language guy.
HUTT: He`s not going to help.
PINSKY: Jason, what is your thought on Amanda? I heard some colorful --
JASON ELLIS, @ELLISMATE: I`m actually happy that Jillian can`t hear me right now, because what I`m thinking involves her and Amanda Bynes.
ELLIS: But it`s way --
HUTT: Jason! Jason!
ELLIS: Wait. Let me finish. Let me finish up there. OK. Wait!
ELLIS: I want her to be healthy first, because mentally unhealthy, not funny. OK? I don`t think it`s funny. She`s definitely a talented person. When she`s stable, I want to do things with her and Jillian. Get off me.
PINSKY: OK. Got it.
PINSKY: Now, is that picture alongside of Jillian -- that`s a new Amanda Bynes picture. That is her now. You can see much calmer, looks much better. I brought my friend Dax Holt with TMZ to visit us here. He`s on the phone. Dax, can you fill us in on what you know about the latest with Amanda?
VOICE OF DAX HOLT, TMZ REPORTER: Yes. I mean -- hey guys, by the way. You know, there`s good news and there`s bad news about Amanda Bynes. Basically, the bad news that we have up on the website right now is the fact that little beloved dog that she was cheering (ph) around, the one that she soaked in gasoline and running into the convenience store to try to wash it off after she lit that fire on the driveway, that dog the family had to get rid of, you know?
When she was taking into (INAUDIBLE), they took the dog in, the mom and dad, and they, you know, tried to take care of it. Unfortunately, little dog by the name of Sherbet, didn`t get along with the other dogs in the family. So, while she was away, they had to find a loving family, hand the dog over.
Unfortunately, you know, Amanda looked at this dog. She was asking for this dog all the time while she was in rehab and, you know, they couldn`t do that. So, you know, I think it`s, honestly, in a better place now because I don`t know if Amanda is in the right mind to be taking care of an animal.
PINSKY: You guys reported that she was given a diagnosis of bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. Is that accurate?
HOLT: That is accurate. Yes, we do know that for sure. That is what they`ve been treating her for, trying to get the meds, obviously, the right dosage. Obviously, doctor, you probably know more about this than I do. But that`s -- it`s a hard one to get under control and it takes a lot of trial and error with these drugs.
PINSKY: OK. So, Dax, hold on a second. I want to go over to my professional. Judyschizophrenia and the mood disturbance, that is a big problem.
HO: Huge. Right. And you know, for her, this bipolar aspect of her diagnosis, this is what I`m worried about. She just came out of treatment. She`s doing her outpatient treatment and she`s already going back to school. She`s thinking about building a fashion line.
PINSKY: Too much, too fast.
HO: Do you think it`s a little bit manic? Right. Exactly.
PINSKY: Wendy, do you agree with that?
WALSH: Well, yes and no, because, you know, having some meaning and sense of purpose in your life is a big part of healing.
WALSH: And sitting around and worrying about your mental illness doesn`t make you feel much better. And I think the idea that they`ve chosen a campus out of town -- I don`t actually like the idea that we`re even talking about her putting pictures up there. You know, she needs to be left alone to do her thing.
ELLIS: Give her dog back. Who takes the dog away from somebody who`s mentally unstable? That could have been the last thing she had, last hope.
WALSH: I kind of agree with him.
PINSKY: I agree. There must have been a really good reason for it.
BARBERIE: She doused him in gasoline. That might be --
PINSKY: Yes, but I bet Amanda was involved in the placement and stuff. Maybe she will get him back one day.
BARBERIE: I`m sure she will.
ELLIS: If you doused me in gasoline, Jillian, I would come back to you.
HUTT: Oh, Jason!
PINSKY: Reminder, you can tweet us right now @DrDrewHLN. We`ll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Amanda Bynes was a very, very sick girl who needed to be put on a conservatorship and treated for four months, held four months. And God bless her one day, she, I hope, will be the poster child for how treatment works. She`ll be great.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I do hope so and that was comparing her then to our buddy, I`m blanking on her name.
HUTT: Miley Cyrus.
PINSKY: Miley! Our buddy, Milley, who does not have mental illness, who has interesting behaviors, but it`s all part of her artistic choices.
HUTT: Do we have to worry about you, Dr. Drew?
PINSKY: Oh, I would worry about me. Listen, I bring guys like Jason Ellis in here to -- you know, I`m just saying.
ELLIS: Thank you.
PINSKY: Yes, exactly. All right. This is obviously the panel with Jenny up there as my co-host, Wendy, Judy, Jillian, and Jason. Jillian, you had a mutual friend who actually allowed you to speak with Amanda on the phone. Tell us about that.
BARBERIE: Oh, well, yes. It was a guy who was dating. He was doing a movie, and Amanda was in it. And she used to watch the morning show that I did, and she wanted to say hi. And I spoke with her briefly and, you know, she`s such a lovely young girl. This was maybe seven years ago.
And recently, I just watched her in that movie where she plays the boy and she`s so damn good. She`s so damn cute and so charming that I just root for her. It`s the same with Britney. I always rooting for Britney. I always root for these girls --
PINSKY: Jillian, both of their parents should be given awards for stepping up and taking conservatorships.
BARBERIE: You are so right. Lynn Spears called me one night when she was going to and Britney had shaved her head. Britney also watched the morning show and she said, Jillian, can you reach out to Britney? And I said, Lynn, I don`t know her. And she said, no, but she watches the show and she, you know, has this relationship with you. And I thought -- you know, that`s not -- I didn`t know what -- how deep involved she was.
And her mother got that guy out of her life at the time that was very -- a very bad influence and Lynn would not give up. And she said, Jillian, you`re a mother now. And I just had had my baby girl. And I think back to that time and you`re absolutely right, Drew, it`s about the parents. And that`s --
PINSKY: Well, the parents -- remember, these are adult children that the parents feel like they can`t do anything. They can, when they have serious illness. You`re going to end up with a Newtown situation if you don`t. Dax, I want to go back to you. TMZ reported that Amanda was at Disneyland today. Is that accurate?
HOLT: Well, this was Tuesday she was at Disneyland. Her parents took her.
PINSKY: She looked healthy, she looked good? She`s doing good?
HOLT: She looked -- I mean, she looked good. I think her parents are trying to introduce her back to society. She was on the matter horn. And she`s in there applying her makeup. I don`t think -- not the safest ride to be applying your makeup.
HOLT: But you know, I think getting out and being, you know, being out with the crowds and being with people, I think she kind of needs that right now just so she can feel normal.
PINSKY: Absolutely. She deserves to have a holiday. She`s done a lot of hard work. Wendy, you agree with me on this? Lot of hard work. She`s with her family. She needs to enjoy herself a little bit.
WALSH: I`m going to agree with my Canadian sister there, Jillian. I think it`s great what her parents have been doing for her and that fact that when she`s out in public, she`s usually with her parents and that her parents have, you know, done everything they can to help and support her and get that conservatorship even though she was an adult. And, that`s what you`ve got to do if you love your kids.
PINSKY: That`s what you`ve got to do. And speaking of schizophrenia, I`m going to show you a guy who was seemed to be just waving his hands around at Nelson Mandela`s memorial service. He claims, his side of the story, that there was a reason -- there he is -- a reason for that. We`ll be right back after this.
PINSKY: Back with Jenny, Wendy, Jillian, Judy and Jason. And we`ve got to talk about the guy who was caught signing gibberish at the Nelson Mandela memorial. Take a look at this. He was supposed to be interpreting -- there he goes. Jason is doing some of his own. This guy was supposedly interpreting the ceremony in sign language just feet from the president and many world leaders.
It turns out his signs were meaningless, and perhaps, he has an explanation. We`ll talk about whether or not that explanation works for us. Take a look at this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In an interview with CNN, he dropped a bombshell.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m suffering from schizophrenic, which is controllable and under -- I`m under treatment positively in Sterkfontein Hospital in Krugersdorp right in South Africa.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He told that Johannesburg Star newspaper that during the ceremony, he was hallucinating, hearing voices in his head. He told the "Associated Press" he saw angels coming into the stadium, that he had violence in his past, and he`d once been hospitalized in a mental health facility for more than a year.
PINSKY: All right. Wendy, so all that history kind of fits together, but then I heard that when one of the reporters asked him to sign -- do we have that footage? Yes. I want you to look at what happens when CNN -- then Wendy you`ll comment -- when CNNs David McKenzie asked the interpreter to show him some actual sign language. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you want me to tell what? Do you want me -- security threat. you want to call me what.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. I`m just asking if you can show me some of the signs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, let`s be realistic.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. Wendy, what do you think?
WALSH: Well, are you suggesting that he may not even know how to sign at all, and the whole thing was a big hoax? I don`t know that if I would use schizophrenia as my excuse, if it will. I mean, that`s a big bomb to drop.
PINSKY: It is, but people don`t understand, it`s a big word they don`t know it when they see it. You know, it`s a hard one for people to understand.
BARBERIE: How did he get to this level where he is speaking at Nelson Mandela`s -- I`m sorry, if he`s not --
PINSKY: I`m reading Jason`s mind. He just wishes he`d have sent one of his minion in there to do exactly this.
BARBERIE: I mean, come on. This is crazy. He obviously had to be vetted. This is a huge event. The world is watching and we have somebody speaking gibberish? I mean, I know Jason --
PINSKY: It is crazy. Wendy, what do you -- what`s your hunch, Wendy?
WALSH: You know, my hunch is there`s definitely something wrong with him. I don`t know if it`s a mood disorder, a personality disorder. I don`t know what name we can give it. but there`s something wrong with him. And yes, the organization is probably at fault for not doing the vetting work and he probably said he was, you know, he could do sign language.
BARBERIE: By the way, that organization has vanished, I heard.
PINSKY: Oh, interesting.
WALSH: Surprise, surprise.
PINSKY: Got to go, guys. "Last Call" is next.
PINSKY: It is time for the "Last Call." And of course, it goes out to our Twitter verse. Let me put up a tweet here for you, Jenny. It`s from @zorbitor says "Great show. It`s a wrap. There we are," as Flintstones characters, I believe. Jenny?
HUTT: Fantastic. I love it!
PINSKY: Fair enough. Thank you all for watching. Thank you to all my great and talented panelists tonight. "What Would You Do?" is coming up right after us. In fact, it starts right now.