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School Shooter Seeking Revenge?

Aired December 16, 2013 - 21:00   ET



DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, the Colorado school shooter, was he out for revenge? Were there warning signs, and why is this happening in Colorado again? The behavior bureau has answers.

Plus, new video of the cliff bride. Watch her lie to police after she had pushed her husband off a cliff.

And what made this bus driver go ballistic.

Let`s get started.



PINSKY: Good evening.

My co-host is attorney and Sirius XM Radio host Jenny Hunt. It`s going to be an interesting evening, Jenny. We`ve got a lot of stuff to cover.

For instance, a viral video, violent in the viral video. We`re going to find out why a bunch of Santa Clauses were brawling on the streets of New York. Something you expect to see every day in your city, Jenny. Well done.

JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: It`s not exactly the Christmas spirit, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Well, we`ll find out exactly what kind of spirit got into these guys.

But first, we have to get into a story that I -- I have trouble expressing my emotions about this one because I`m frustrated, I`m angry, I`m devastated and it`s again, again, 18-year-old Karl Pierson allegedly out for something along the lines of revenge. But I`m going to tell you, no way is revenge sufficient to explain his behavior. He showed up at his high school on Friday armed with a shotgun, brandishing a shotgun and a machete with firebombs.

Take a look at this.


CALLER: I have a student down in the athletic hall. Shotgun shell on the ground. I assume they have a shotgun.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lone gunman entered the school and immediately asked for the location of a very specific teacher.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say Pierson was looking for the debate coach.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Karl had threatened to kill Mr. Murphy kind of half-jokingly. And Mr. Murphy brought that to the administration and Karl got suspended.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Claire Davis, seen in this Facebook photo, was shot when fellow classmate Karl Pierson came into the school hell-bent on revenge.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some type of retaliation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whenever he`d get angry, he was just like I want to shoot everyone up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He took no effort to conceal the fact that he was armed.

KARL PIERSON: I`m Karl Pierson, a freshman at Arapahoe High School in Littleton.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The shooter took his own life with a self- inflicted gunshot wound.


PINSKY: On our panel: Tiffanie Davis-Henry, HLN contributor and psychiatrist, HLN`s Lynn Berry, Vanessa Barnett, social commentator and host of, and Loni Coombs, former prosecutor, author of "You`re Perfect and Other Lies Parents Tell".

Lynn, give us the update. What more can we know about this kid? I don`t like this whole notion of revenge, because it suggests that the behavior is rational, and his behavior was not rational. It may have been provoked by revenge, but it was not rational.

LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST: Let`s talk about what that revenge is first and foremost. Apparently the debate coach, they had a little disagreement about some of the changes Pierson wanted to make to the debate team so he was kicked off the team. They apparently won last place and took first place. That may have made Karl angry, that may have brought something up in him, and he did go there saying he was looking for the debate coach.

And that, sadly, Claire was just in the wrong place at the wrong time and came between that bullet and his intended target.

But here`s what we know about this kid. He lived with his mom and his sister, came from divorced parents. Friends say that could have played a role as far as it seemed to affect him.

But let`s be very clear about this. This was not a loner. This kid was actually well liked. He was known by many people at the school. His date to prom actually was hysterically crying saying this guy is not a killer.

By the way, he is. He should be remembered that way because, you know, he is a terrible -- he goes in and shoots up a girl that`s now basically fighting for her life.

PINSKY: Yes. And, Loni, I want to harken to your book about parents saying you`re perfect and other lies parents tell. Not only do parents tell that lie, they cling to that lie and that makes them not able to see what sometimes is happening with their kids.

Do you think something like that went down with this boy?

LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, I always late to point the finger at the parents, but a lot of his friends said he was smart, he was articulate, he was successful in many areas of life, however, he had a temper. He was able to show that temper quite often to the point where they knew that if he didn`t get his way, he would act out.

And it appears that if you have a child like that, teach them how to problem solve in a way that doesn`t use that temper or that violence.

Look, every kid has downsides, draw backs, weaknesses. You take that child and work with those weaknesses and teach them how to use them so they can be successful. Instead of saying, oh, don`t worry, we`ll just give you everything you want so you won`t ever have a temper tantrum --

PINSKY: Something is going on in Colorado.

Vanessa, I want you to look at a couple of the Facebook pictures of the victim. The victim`s name was Claire Davis. And in a statement -- no, I don`t believe that is the victim.

There we go. There is the victim.

The parent`s -- the shooter`s parents said they can`t begin to understand why he did what he did. He took this life and snuffed it -- well, if not snuffed it out, changed its trajectory quite significantly.

Vanessa, your thoughts.

VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: And therein lies the issue. The parents are still saying, oh, we don`t know how this happened, we don`t understand it. The mother knew that there was an issue with her child. She switched schools instead of giving him these tools to be able to overcome whatever adversity he was facing. You can`t just keep switching your schools or switching your environments. We need to teach these kids tools to handle bullies or to handle anger or to handle any issue that arises --


PINSKY: Or -- or, by the way -- that`s right, we heard this with remember the kid that raped and did horrible things to his teacher and killed her? It`s the same kind of thing here.

BARNETT: Absolutely, exactly.

PINSKY: It`s not the kid`s problem, it`s the school`s problem.

BARNETT: What does that teach them?

PINSKY: Oh, please.

BARNETT: Tiffany, here`s my -- I`m speculating, but why Colorado? I always wondered is there something going on there where the -- institutionally or the culture of getting mental health services provided, something is a little different there, do you think?

TIFFANIE DAVIS HENRY, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, it stands to reason. I mean we`ve got this school. We also have Columbine. We also have the Aurora movie theater as well. All of that happening within about an 18- mile radius. So something definitely is fishy and in the water.

I agree with what Loni said, though, in terms of being able to handle adversity and being able to handle the word "no." That`s what stood out to me in this particular case, that this kid -- you know, debate was something that he was very good at, he was very successful in. So no matter whether his parents divorced, whether they moved, it was something that he felt really good about and really connected to and felt that he could do it.

And when he was told, no, you can`t be on the debate team, I`m taking this away from you, that`s the one thing that he had. And he didn`t really like it.

BERRY: It`s not any different than any other 18-year-old.


BERRY: That`s what makes it difficult to comprehend.

PINSKY: All right.]

BERRY: The one warning sign I would say is that he did talk a lot about how the U.S. was this communist country, that the government was overtaking us, which goes to this paranoia that you probably will talk about.

PINSKY: Right, thank you. And again, when a child -- look at Newtown. What was that kid`s name, who was paranoid and putting sheets over his windows? That`s paranoia. That`s a symptom of significant psychiatric problems.

So, Tiffanie, you and I are speculating about Colorado, so I brought in Shaun Boyd. He`s a co-founder of Unique Counseling. It`s a Colorado- based mental health group practice.

Now, Shaun, I don`t practice in your state and I`m just looking at the data and trying to understand what`s going on. Is there something about either the culture there in Colorado as it pertains to mental health services or even the institutional sort of mandates to get good services and take care of kids or identifying and referring kids?

SHAUN BOYD, UNIQUE COUNSELLING (via telephone): Absolutely. Thanks for having me, Dr. Drew. This is an incredibly scary issue and one that has many people concerned if not completely baffled here in Colorado. I certainly agree that the issue is a cultural one and one that has a lot to do with mental health stigma.

You don`t talk about your issues, asking for help is a sign of weakness. If you get knocked down, you pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Don`t talk about your issues.

The fact of the matter is we are not built to do things by ourselves. Humans are designed for connection.

PINSKY: And, Sean, you`re singing to the choir with us. But my question is if that`s the cultural context, does that also reflect in sort of the administrative structure that schools have in terms of identifying and referring kids with mental health problems?

BOYD: To some degree. The resources are there. Colorado is doing, I think, a lot to address the crisis and safety concerns.

But approaching the issue, having the conversations at home with our children before they go into high school, the messages just aren`t as strong as they need to be so that when we`re actually in a place of vulnerability that we feel confident and courageous enough to go ahead and do something about it.

PINSKY: Tiffanie, you have a question.

HENRY: Well, Sean, I have a question. Yes, I do have a question. Sean, I`m wondering if because all of these incidents have happened within the same vicinity, I`m sure that there`s so many conversations that are being had via media, via parents, via schools.

Just because there`s so much that has happened in that area, do you think that that could impact kids feeling like this is a viable option. This is something that I can do when I`m faced with adversity?

PINSKY: I should get help when I don`t feel good, simple.

HENRY: Right.

BOYD: That`s certainly the hope, that when we need help that we`re reaching out to get it. The proximity of how close these are, these events, certainly doesn`t speak to the number. I think we`re over 25 different incidents throughout the country.

We have several here but this is a countrywide issue.

HENRY: I`m actually asking a different question, Dr. Drew. I`m asking if all these incidents are happening and we keep talking about these incidents that are happening right there in that area, no, are they not causing change? Are kids looking at these and saying this is a viable option?

COOMBS: Being desensitized.

PINSKY: All I know, guys, is there`s been no movement towards people having to report any sort of previous violent behavior. There`s all sorts of problems with people accessing guns who have these sorts of histories.

BERRY: But he had a machete and Molotov cocktails. This isn`t about him having access to a gun. If someone is mentally ill --

PINSKY: Who did he hurt -- did he hurt somebody with a machete, Lynn, or did he hurt somebody with a gun?


BERRY: He could use explosives. Kids with learn how to make a bomb on the internet right now.

PINSKY: You can use your fists too, but who got hurt in this thing? It was a gun that caused the serious damage, and it`s somebody that shouldn`t have had a gun. I`m not saying it`s about guns. Somebody shouldn`t have had the gun.

Anyway, thank you guys. I`m going to bring in a behavior bureau to find what else we think might have gone wrong with this kid, and why again, what their theory is about Colorado, going on there.

And later, new video of the so-called cliff bride. You will see her try to lie her way -- I mean bold-face lying trying to get out of this murder.

Back after this.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, you never think it`s going to be your school.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I looked at my teacher`s face, and it just became completely pale.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here, like my school? Like the people that I know?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We just rushed to the corner of the classroom away from the doors and the window.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve never really felt safe at school. The doors are unlocked 24/7. We have two security guards on campus and one officer, and I don`t feel that that`s enough to cover the whole school.


PINSKY: Back with Jenny Hunt.

We`ve been discussing the latest school shooting in Colorado. The gunman committed suicide but not before critically wounding a fellow student, 17-year-old Claire Davis.

And, Jenny, I want to share a tweet from that came in after a last block. It is from @callinglinda (ph). And it shows, "How do you get a 12- year-old into therapy if he refuses to go?" We were talking about getting mental health services to kids when they`re in trouble.

Jenny, it`s a 12-year-old. You can get 12-year-old into therapy. The problem is getting them to engage in therapy but that`s not the parents` responsibility, that`s the professional`s responsibility.

HUTT: Right. I would agree with that.

And I would also say, even prior to getting the child into therapy, the parents have to be more talking to her children. I check in with my kids all the time.

It`s just what we have to do as parents, even when kids don`t want to speak. Teenagers don`t want to speak. Make them speak and listen.

PINSKY: And, by -- and let`s -- let`s educate ourselves about the real serious warning signs in adolescents.

HUTT: Yes.

PINSKY: There are many things during adolescence parenting that you don`t go it alone. Paranoia is one of those things.

HUTT: Sure.

Bring in the behavior bureau. Samantha Schacher, social commentator, host of "Pop Trigger" on the Young Turks Network. Tiffanie Davis Henry is still with us, HLN contributor and psychotherapist. Judy Ho, clinical psychologist, and Candice Cameron Bure, actress, author of "Balancing It All: My Story of Juggling Priorities and Purpose."

If you want to join the conversation you can tweet us right now @DrDrewHLN #behaviorbureau.

The question, sick or sad? Judy Ho, is this sick or sad or both?

JUDY HO, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, Dr. Drew, it`s obviously a sad story but this kid was definitely sick. You know, he was known to be a very smart kid in school but he had a ton of opinions, have conspiracy theories that he was posting about on Facebook. You know, he was paranoid about the government.

And we actually have some preliminary research now that there is a link between higher levels of bipolar disorder, which can include delusions, among people who are gifted intellectually.

So I wonder if that`s part of the link here. You know, this is something that was really a huge part of his identity, being the smart kid in school. So, if a teacher slighted him or he got a slightly bad grade, you know, who knows what this kid could come up with.

PINSKY: Judy, you jump right to sick. I`m going to say and I want the panel to think about this -- this kid didn`t come in with a concealed weapon. He was brandishing a shotgun. A 16, 17-year-old, brandishing a shotgun amongst his peers.

You are in an altered state when you are doing that, and randomly shooting somebody. And in that extremely agitated state turns the gun on himself. That is sick, sick, sick.

Tiffanie, do you agree?

HENRY: I kind of do and I kind of don`t. You know I love and respect you. But I have to say, you know, when a kid comes in, especially teenagers, they oftentimes think they are invincible and that nothing can or will happen to them when they do whatever it is they`re going to do.

My thought of him turning the gun on himself, he already knew he was in trouble. He already know he wasn`t getting -- he probably thought he wasn`t getting out of this alive and rather than giving them the satisfaction of killing me off or doing something to me, I`ll take my own life and it will be the ultimate --


SAMATHA SCHACHER, POP TRIGGER: Dr. Drew, listen. Here`s the thing. I look back at my school experience and never once did I have to consider one of my classmates coming to school and shooting up the school. It was unfathomable. It wasn`t something we would ever think about.

But, nowadays, this is such a reality and so prevalent in schools. Kids actually have to think about this. So, what`s different, Dr. Drew --


PINSKY: What do you think? What is it? You tell me, what is it?

SCHACHER: OK, I`ll tell you what I think because mental illness was stigmatized back then, guns were around back then. We played violent video games. I think it`s the digital revolution. I`m possibly biting the hand that feeds me because I`m in that world. But certain kinds --

PINSKY: Yes, you are.


CANDACE CAMERON BURE, ACTRESS: I`ll interject as well --

SCHACHER: Let me finish my thought really quick. I just want to finish my thought because the introverted and the socially inept with social media and their devices, they blend in better. It`s more of a disconnect and there`s lack of human touch. It`s different now than what it was a decade ago.

PINSKY: May be, we`ll have to research. Sam, I`m going to hold you up and get Cameron`s point of view. Candace, I`m sorry, Candace`s point of view.

BURE: Well, I don`t necessarily disagree with the digital age having played a factor into this too, but I also come -- I have a teenager -- two teenagers and a preteen. I wonder about my kids when we have sports and we have them participate in activities when there`s no loser. We`re all winners.

And it wasn`t that way back then and we are not teaching our kids how to deal with the behavior of losing or not being number one. And sometimes I believe that they think that there aren`t consequences. And clearly, when everyone is a winner, you don`t know how to deal with rejection.

And I think that is a fault that is happening with parenting today, that it`s become so soft that our children don`t know that there are consequences.

PINSKY: All right. I want to switch gears a little bit.

SCHACHER: Too politically correct.

PINSKY: I agree with you, Sam.

Joining us is Jade Stanton. She`s a sophomore at the high school in question here, a friend of the shooter`s sister. You`re going to be seeing the sister`s Facebook page here, which is now a photo of her brother.

Jade, how is she doing now?

JADE STANTON, SOPHOMORE AT THE SCHOOL, KNOWS SHOOTER`S SISTER (via telephone): Hi. Thank you so much for having me. It`s still unbelievable, just everything that happened. I don`t think that it will fully set in until we are entering the school again on Friday. But I think everyone is just trying to find different ways to cope with what happened and do what`s best for them and just try to find a way to feel better about the whole thing and feel safe again.

PINSKY: I wonder if anyone on the panel has a question for jade. Anyone have any questions for Jade?

HENRY: I do, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Tiffanie, go ahead, please.

HENRY: Jade, was there in your mind, in being friends with this family, were there any warning signs that you could think of or things looking back on it, is there anything that maybe you think maybe you guys missed?

STANTON: I mean I wasn`t -- I had never been close with the family. Kristen, his sister, is in my biology class and was with me during this time.

And I talked to him personally briefly a couple of times. But, overall, he just seemed like a well put together kid, very smart. But as people have said before, like he wore communist shirts a lot and stuff like that. And he was a bit odd.

But I never would have expected that.

HENRY: That`s what a lot of people are saying. I want to also show people the shooter`s junior year prom date spoke to him the day before the shooting and I want to show you what she had to say to ABC News.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s not a monster. He`s one of the best people I knew. He`s not this killer. He`s Karl Pierson, one of the best kids I knew.


PINSKY: I also have with us, Zach Runberg. He`s a senior at the high school. I think we have some Facebook photos of the shooter`s victim, Claire Davis, while we talk to Zack.

Zach, what can you tell us about Claire?

ZACH RUNBERG, SENIOR AT SCHOOL (via telephone): I mean like I know that the family wants privacy on this and they don`t want a whole lot about them but from what I saw, she was a sweet girl. She was extremely nice.

PINSKY: I`ve got to be honest, Zach, really it`s unfair asking a high school student this question, but the information that`s coming out about her is very confusing. Is she going to be OK? Do we know? Do we know where the gunshot was? Is there any information like that out there?

RUNBERG: I mean, I -- all I know is what you know and what I`ve heard is that she`s still in critical condition and I know that that`s about all I know that isn`t a rumor.

PINSKY: OK. No, let`s not go to rumor.


PINSKY: Got it. Candace, you look so upset by this story, Candace. I keep seeing your face stricken.

BURE: I know, I`m having -- because -- I mean I`m looking at her and that`s my daughter. Look at the boy that could look just like that and coming from a mom`s point of view and thinking of my children who go to public school. It`s so scary as a mom. And my heart just goes out to the family and it`s --

PINSKY: It`s devastating, just devastating. Tiffanie, do you have something?

HENRY: Yes, I don`t know if you still have Zach and Jade there, but I`m wondering if we can ask what can we do to support you at this time? I know there`s a lot of stuff going on through your heads. What can we, as a nation, as a show, what can we do to support you guys?

PINSKY: I`m going to give -- I`ll give each of them a chance to answer.

Jade, you first.

STANTON: I honestly think that we just need to keep doing what everyone has been doing, just sending out their prayers and supporting the family, trying to keep it as private as they can, but knowing that she`s going to be OK, just put out good vibes out there.


STANTON: She loves One Direction. We`re trying to get them for her.

PINSKY: Oh, my God. Would that be something?


STANTON: -- to Claire, that would be amazing.


RUNBERG: Well, I know me and my friends, we -- today we went around to all the high schools around our area and we set up like donation boxes and we talked to a few schools like with their student council things and just ideas of what the schools can do. Me and my friends, we set up a First Bank account for the family -- and I mean, I know that -- I don`t know if it`s quite nationwide yet, but we`re trying to set up a Web site to where you can go on and put in how much you want to donate and that will just go straight to the bank account for the family at First Bank.

PINSKY: All right, guys. We will try to get those links up. Thank you for bringing that to our attention.

Thank you, panel. Thank you, Zach. Thank you, Jade.

Obviously, Jenny -- bring me Jenny here.

You know, we`ve been doing this for how long? How many more of these high school stories are we going to have to report on before something changes? There`s been no changes in a year since Newtown.

HUTT: Well, here`s the thing. What Candace was saying whether, that she worries additionally because she has kids in public school -- I have kids in private school. That worry is across the board, it doesn`t matter.

PINSKY: It`s everywhere. I got an interesting tweet. I don`t know if they`ll let me put it up because it`s a little edgy, but I`ll get it after the break.

Also, guys, after the break I`m going to talk about a bus driver who goes ballistic. You`re going to see that, more aggression and violence. Fantastic. The adults are -- the kids are just modeling what the adults are doing, how about that? We`ll be right back.

And later, one man has found a unique way to put a stop to loud cell phone conversations. This is without violence. This guy is very clever. It is must-see video. He`s got something like a million and a half views in a day or so. I think just in a way he`s gotten that many views.

We`ll be right back.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host Jenny Hutt. And Jenny, I want to read you a tweet that I promised from that segment about what was going on in the young people`s lives today. And this is from Parrish President, he said, "I agree with social media that this was Sam`s point of view really f*d my generation up, they don`t go outside #slavetothenewworldorder #BehaviorBureau." There goes another vote for social media somehow disconnecting young people in a way that`s having some of the effect of what we`re seeing out there, do you agree?

HUTT: Well, yes and no. I feel like Columbine happened before social media really got -

PINSKY: Long before.

HUTT: -- to the place

PINSKY: Long before.

HUTT: -- where it is, right? So -

PINSKY: Yes, you`re right.

HUTT: I think there`s copy cats, I think there`s kids thinking they`re going to achieve some sort of fame when really it`s infamy.

PINSKY: Maybe the fame social media connected to something real there.

HUTT: So I think it goes beyond just social media. But there is a social media component but that`s too simple to me an answer, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: All right, it`s too just so I agree with you. Let`s bring in a panel - Mark Eighlarsh, Lynn Berry, Vanessa Barnett, Loni Coombs. Mark, thank you for - I don`t know what happened out there in Miami. I guess as usual, our crack team got right on it, yes?

MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Yes, no, I set up the camera and the audio, it`s all me tonight.

PINSKY: Fantastic. Mostly I just want to make sure I can hear you because I couldn`t see you a few minutes ago. All right, now, here`s what I want to show you guys - a Seattle bus driver who just lost it, and then he lost his job subsequently after a violent altercation with a passenger who had refused to get off his bus, all caught on camera. This is from "Life League." Take a look.


BUS DRIVER: Get off the bus. Get off the bus. I`m taking a break. Get off the bus. Get off the f**king bus.

PASSENGER: Kill yourself.

BUS DRIVER: Man, you want this in your mother f**king face? Get off the bus. Get off the bus. Because he needs to get his a** off the bus.


PINSKY: All right, Mark, so the passenger apparently spit on the driver and then he lost it. Do you think the driver should have lost his job? The behavior`s pretty intense, I`m looking at it right now. It`s hard to justify it.

EIGLARSH: Yes, no, I think that his job has to go, and here`s why. Look, I feel for him - the first 15 `you got to get off the busses` were ignored. But he then just beat the heck out of him, and from a liability standpoint, this bus driver obviously had some deeply-rooted issues and he responded - as many people would. But from a liability perspective, if that were to happen again, they would sue the company, they`d be held responsible because now it`s reasonably foreseeable that this guy`s got buttons and you could push those buttons fairly easily.


PINSKY: But, Vanessa, you`re saying no.

BARNETT: I don`t - no, I don`t agree at all. There`s a saying - "Punks jump up to get beat down." Don`t go spitting in someone`s face if you`re not ready for the consequences. Don`t fire this man, give him a raise, like what does he have to put up with as a bus driver?

EIGLARSH: Oh, really - a raise?


BARNETT: Fifteen times to get off the bus and then to be spit at? That`s absolutely unacceptable. This guy is 20 years old spitting at someone in his 60s and still got beat up.

PINSKY: He says he was drunk, didn`t remember, didn`t know what was going on. Loni, do you agree with Mark?

BARNETT: I don`t care about his excuses, Dr. Drew -


BARNETT: I`m sorry. I respect you but I don`t agree.

PINSKY: Vanessa, admire Vanessa`s pluck - plucky, plucky attitude that Vanessa this time.

BARNETT: I`m just saying, don`t spit if you don`t want to get hit. Put on a tee-shirt.

COOMBS: I get what you`re saying, Vanessa, and there`s really nothing more nauseating than someone spitting and it getting in your eye. I mean, besides the fact that it is so dangerous, it`s disgusting, but look - there are other ways to handle the situation -


COOMBS: Besides taking an eight-pound block and beating the guy over the head. He`s lucky he didn`t do major physical damage to this guy. Think about a different way to handle it. And the bus drivers have a specific protocol to follow when that happens. Same deal with people like this all the time - drunk people, sleeping people, angry people, violent people.

PINSKY: All right, OK.

COOMBS: They know how they`re supposed to react. If they reacted like this every time, it`d be crazy.

PINSKY: Lynn, my panel agrees - settle the score here.

BARNETT: People wouldn`t get spit on -- if they act like that every time, people wouldn`t get spit on. People would stop spitting if that happened.

LYNN BERRY @LYNNBERRYTV: You can`t just justify kicking the life out of someone because he got spit on. I mean, there are parts of this video -

BARNETT: Actually you can.

BERRY: No you can`t. I can spit at (inaudible), you just can`t. So, there are parts of this video - this driver thinks he did nothing wrong. He`s actually filed a grievance with the Union - he doesn`t think he should be fired.

BARNETT: As he should have.

PINSKY: Well, well. I love Vanessa`s attitude about this, but I`m afraid that the legal system - Mark and Loni and Jenny - are doing to make it impossible for this guy to regain his job. Next up, the bride who pushed her husband off a cliff. We have new video of her lying - absolutely Jodi Arias style - to the police about the murder and later take several thousand people dressed in Santa suits, then pour in a whole bunch of beer and alcohol and - what could possibly go wrong? You`ll see.



Female: Jordan Graham, former bride, now inmate with her sentencing only months away. In a last-minute deal, Graham pleaded guilty to second- degree murder in exchange for dropping a first-degree murder charge. She came clean before the federal judge about what really happened the day her husband died at Glacier National Park. Facing the cliff, Graham says Johnson grabbed her arm. She said, "Let go." Then she pushed him, one hand on his shoulder, one shoulder on his back, face first off the cliff. "I wasn`t thinking of where we were," Graham told the judge. "It was a reckless act. I just pushed."


PINSKY: Back with Jenny Hutt and the "Behavior Bureau" which includes Samantha Schacher, Tiffanie Davis Henry, Judy Ho and Candace Cameron Bure. We`re talking about the newlywed who had pushed her husband off a cliff just eight days after their wedding. Joining our - you can join in this conversation by tweeting us at DrHLN#BehaviorBureau. Jordan Graham eventually confessed, but listen to the lies she told police after her husband disappeared. It`s amazing.


KALISPELL POLICE OFFICER: What`s going on as far as where he might have gone or who he might be with?

JORDAN GRAHAM, CHARGED WITH MURDERING GROOM: Well, I got a message saying he was going to go for a ride with some of his out-of-town buddies that were visiting. But he always told me this one thing, is when his friends came to visit, he would take them to Glacier Park, um plains or the Hungry Horse Dam. So he walked out, made a call or something. I don`t know if he made a call, he was in the garage, and I got a text saying he was going and he left.


PINSKY: I want to get both the clinicians` and a layperson`s point of view about sick or sad? Sam, sick or sad?

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: I think this woman is sick. I mean, Dr. Drew, I think this woman is a full-blown sociopathic murderer. I don`t think that - that this -- I think that she premeditated this murder well before they got married. There`s been reveals from some of her friends that have told us that in confidence that she has - was never in love with her husband, that she didn`t want to be married to him but she wanted this fairytale wedding. And if she really did push her husband out of an act of aggression because they were in a fight, any normal, compassionate human being would have then called for help. She didn`t - she doesn`t care, she`s not even remorseful.

PINSKY: Tiffany -


PINSKY: Sick or sad?

HENRY: -- or me it`s more sad. I can`t even imagine. I`m really pissed off to be honest with you, Dr. Drew --

Female: Yes.

HENRY: That she didn`t get - that they didn`t just go ahead with the trial. I can`t imagine them giving her a plea deal because she really deserved to be underneath the jail for the rest of her life after doing this.


HENRY: She just seemed so cavalier and so `Oh, no big deal -


HENRY: I was just going to tell a few lies here - not a big deal,` and this - you pushed him off the freaking cliff.

PINSKY: And she told a new version of -

HENRY: Every time.

PINSKY: -- of what happened that - just days after --

Female: She`s a liar.

Female: Right.

PINSKY: -- well, take a - listen to this.


GRAHAM: He went to grab my arm and my jacket, and I said no. I`m not going to let this happen this time. I`m going to defend myself. So I kind of walk over and I pushed and he went over. And then I took off and went home or got my brother and then went home.


HENRY: I just went home.


HENRY: I pushed him off the cliff and then I went home.

PINSKY: Tiffanie loves this.

CANDACE CAMERON BURE, ACTRESS: Can you imagine though that she actually took her brother. She took her brother to discover the body that she knew as there. I`m going with sick too. I think the (inaudible) is absolutely -

PINSKY: It`s a special (inaudible) though - yes, Judy - when you - I saw you shaking your head vigorously. When we think about sick, we think of something treatable. I`m not sure this is treatable. There`s a coldness in her voice as she describes this stuff that is very disturbing.

HENRY: She`s very detached.

SCHACHER: Then I take back sick then because I don`t think it`s treatable.

JUDY HO, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: And you mentioned earlier, Dr. Drew, that there was a connection to Jodi Arias, and actually there is. You know, there`s a lot of similarities - the lies leading up to it, she created a fake e-mail account before as part of one of her lies. You know, she really has kind of this whole planned out sort of persona, all of their friends testified against both of them. So you know, there`s a lot of similarities here. I say she`s a sociopath.

HENRY: Well, I guess she going to be on "Snapped" next week then, because Jodi was on there last night and today.


PINSKY: We`re going to leave it right there -

SCHACHER: She`ll get a two episode, a two-parter.

Female: Yes.

PINSKY: Santa Claus. I want to move from this to Santa Claus. How could brawling Santa Clauses spill onto the sidewalk? Well, they - well, Santa Claus had a bit too much holiday cheer - all those Santa Clauses. How could that go bad? And later on, watch as a man crashes other people`s loud phone conversations in a way that is so clever and compelling, you`re going to have to see it. Be right back.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt and our panel, Lynn, Samantha and Tiffanie. And, Jenny, you`re going to have to explain to our panel and myself what`s going on in your hometown there. You know I love New York, I love New York, but it`s -

HUTT: Listen -

PINSKY: -- a bar crawl with 30,000 participants -

HUTT: You bet. That`s right.

PINSKY: -- dressed as Santa Claus -

HUTT: Listen, Dr. Drew --

PINSKY: -- and going out to the bars -

HUTT: Yes.

PINSKY: -- all day long, oh, look at this. What could possibly go wrong? You`re looking a YouTube video posted by (Chris Law).

HUTT: Right.

PINSKY: So, Jenny, go ahead, I mean I guess they just do it -

HUTT: There`s Comic Con why can`t there be SantaCon? It`s absurd and I think no good ever really comes from these crawls, Dr. Drew. I don`t get it. I don`t get the need to go out and get so completely plastered and lit that you end up beating up someone on the street -

PINSKY: Go ahead, Sam --

HUTT: -- a pack of Santas.

PINSKY: --tell us about that. You did bottle service for years - tell us about why people do that.

Female: There you go.

SCHACHER: First of all, during, OK, during the holidays -

HENRY: First of all - SCHACHER: First of all, clearly you guys didn`t get the memo that Santa Clauses are supposed to be jolly and merry. I mean, what the hell. But you know what, Dr. Drew, I`m not surprised. I`ve seen a lot of brawls in my day, when you get belligerent dudes in a bar, especially this many of them, a fight is going to break out.


BERRY: Can I just -

PINSKY: That`s right. And maybe in a costume, they`re even more likely to act up, but let`s be clear, I mean, Santa Claus is plethoric - he looks like he`s had a - tossed a few down. Is that what you think, Lynn?

BERRY: -- can we just explain what SantaCon is, you guys? I just moved down here from New York, I lived in New York for years. SantaCon is amateur hour for ex-frat boys living out their college years, it is absolutely ridiculous. They basically spend all day drinking and they use the guise of a charity as the reason to get permits to pub crawl.

PINSKY: Well, I hope - I hope they at least raised some money. Did they raise some dough?

BERRY: I mean, they raised some money, but it`s like ten bucks.


BERRY: People don`t really donate because it`s like thousands and thousands of people just going out to get drunk and it`s like Halloween in December.

HENRY: Yes, you can do that at home.

HUTT: Right.

SCHACHER: Yes, exactly.

PINSKY: Remind everybody you can find us on Instagram@DrDrewHLN. Up next, if you`re sick and tired of people speaking too loud on their phones in public, this guy phone bombed them. You know about photo bombs? Well, these are phone bombs, and I think you`re going to like it. I suspect he`s on to something. You`ll see it when we get back.


PINSKY: Back with Jenny Hutt, Lynn, Samantha and Tiffanie. People who carry on loud phone conversations in public places can be annoying. So this fellow has figured out a unique way to put a stop to that chatter by bombing or crashing the calls. Take a look at this video that`s had like a million and a half views in the last 24 hours. Take a look.


Male 1: How late is your flight delayed?

Male 2: It`s like 20 minutes late I think. I think it`s probably going to be about 20 minutes.

Male 1: Is that your sister with you?

Male 2: No, no, I don`t have a sister. Why do you ask?

Male 1: Like answering the same question.

Male 2: I`m sorry.

Male 1: I feel like you`re answering my question.

Male 2: No, no, no - I`m talking to somebody. It`s my friend.

Male 3: I`m at the airport.

Male 2: Yes, me too. I`m sitting here at the airport just waiting to get on the flight.

Male 3: Yes.

Male 2: Yes, oh, I`m sorry.

Male 3: I got a B plus.

Male 2: Oh, a B plus - that`s good. Congratulations. That is not bad. You know, reception`s kind of bad over here, I`m going to move over. Oh, it`s better here. It`s definitely better here.

(END VIDEOCLIP) PINSKY: Lynn, you loved this.

BERRY: It is my favorite video of the day, and you know why? Because I`m the jerk that does this. I`m the one that -

HUTT: Lynn!

BERRY: -- I`m the one that - I`m so (inaudible) guilty.

HUTT: Oh, no, not the phone call. I jump in.

BERRY: No, I`m just guilty of being in line at the grocery yapping on my phone. I learned something.

HENRY: Lynn, I would never think that of you.

BERRY: I know, I know.

HENRY: My goodness.

PINSKY: I have a feeling - I just -- I`m looking at how quiet Sam is. I suspect she`s even more guilty just by her silence.

SCHACHER: No. Well, yes, maybe so actually.


BERRY: Admit it, you all are.

SCHACHER: Yes, maybe so.

HENRY: That`s the most annoying.

SCHACHER: I love this YouTube channel. He`s hysterical -


HENRY: He is.

SCHACHER: -- and he is clever. And seems to be harmless.

PINSKY: Well, I have him. Sam, and by the way, Sam, I need you to stay with me for after the commercial because your husband did something -


PINSKY: That I`m going to share with all of our - oh, yes - with all of our viewers. Everyone needs to stick around for that. But I have on the phone this gentleman on the screen, (Greg Benson). He`s the man behind the video. Greg, how did you think of this? What inspired you?

GREG BENSON, COMEDIAN: Hey, guys. Well, you know, everybody talks on their phone in public. I do it as well, but a couple of years ago I just started answering them as if I was the person they were talking to, and I did it a lot before I realized, hey, I really should get this on video. So, I just started shooting it with a hidden camera, and it`s one of the most fun things I`ve ever done.

Female: Hilarious.

PINSKY: Does anybody ever like get aggressive or freaked out in any way?

BENSON: Some people have with some other pranks that I`ve done, but with this one, it`s just a positive-theme prank and I really do this one with a real sense of fun. I love to do pranks that are fun because I figure if I have a good time, then hopefully the people I interact with have a good time.


BENSON: And the viewers would too.

PINSKY: And I want to - I want to give Lynn a chance to talk to you because she`s in love with you. So, go ahead, Lynn.

Females: Wow.

BERRY: Hi, Greg, how you doing?

BENSON: Hi, (Inaudible), how are you doing?

BERRY: Listen, I think what`s so funny about the video is that the people next to you are amused and it takes them a while to actually catch on to what you`re doing when it`s so blatantly obvious what you`re doing. Were you struck by that?

BENSON: Oh, yes, no, it`s amazing because you know when you watch the video, you can actually the wheels just churning in their brain -


BENSON: -- and them figuring out, what a minute, he like - because, one, it`s just a coincidence, and then when I say a second thing, then it becomes a little more than a coincidence.


BENSON: (Inaudible).

PINSKY: Greg, I got to interrupt you, I`m sorry. I`m running out of time. Check out Greg`s YouTube channel, and Sam, you stay here with me and Jenny for the last call, up next.

Females: Oh, no.


PINSKY: Time for "The Last Call." Sam, I asked you to stay back to explain to Jenny Hutt and myself in a very short time - we have like 25 seconds - this. Explain what your husband was doing here.

HUTT: Ay, (inaudible).

SCHACHER: Oh, my gosh. I just saw - I just saw it on Twitter. But I`m not surprised. My husband has made much more risque photos for some of our friends for their bachelor and bachelorette parties, so I am not surprised.

PINSKY: Well, I want to stay out of his line of fire.


PINSKY: We`ll talk about that after I get off the air, but thank you guys. "What Would You Do?" starts right now.